Sam Turner, welcome back to Acquiring Minds. Thanks very much, Will. Great to be here. Still still a massive fan of what you do. I've caught up I've got what I think one missing episode and I must go back to that which is your 200th where you kind of give a bit of a summary and I and I keep meaning to get back to that one, but no great stuff. I listened to a few and for sure yours is the is easy for me to say genuinely yours is the is the best one. So no kudos for that. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. It really means a lot. And by the way, you can you can skip that 200th episode. Just go on to the ones with with other guests, please. Uh so so you're a as I just made clear a repeat guest or this is your second time. We talked in July of last year. So almost a year and a half ago. Mhm. You told the story of leaving a successful corporate career to build a holding company of HVAC businesses in the UK. It was a great conversation, so it'll be linked in the show notes for people who didn't hear it the first time around. There was at the time a lot of momentum to your venture. There was a very well-defined goal to your venture which made the conversation really special because you were so specific. So I wanted to have you back on for an update and hear how all of those things look a year and a half later. But before we get into it, Sam remind people who you are, please. A bit about your history and a bit about what you're building in Adventus. Yeah, great. And again, thanks again for for having me on back on, Will. Great great to be here. So So I'm Sam. I'm based in the UK not far from London. About an hour's north of London. I spent 20 20-plus years in the in the sort of corporate life as you suggested. Finance background, finance strategy background. Got bored not bored, got fed up with disenchanted maybe is the best word. Disenchanted with the with the whole corporate existence. I spent 15 years living in different countries, which was nice and great. And anyone that has the opportunity to do that I would absolutely recommend. Um, but just got disenchanted with the politics, with the travel, um, and with the inability to be, let's say, master of your own destiny. And I think that those three things combined for me to to exit the corporate world, to spend some time thinking about what I wanted to do, and then and then decided on on this path, which is uh, trying to leverage the skill sets that I I I tend to say that I operate you know, well between the financial community and the the world and and, you know, given my background in in that, and we were owned by private equity, so I understand all of that. Um, but I also enjoy being on the front line, being on the ground, being, you know, talking to business owners, small business owners, and and helping and supporting and developing people. So, I guess it's kind of the combination of those things is is a is it is is is this really in terms of what we're doing? And uh, and that's why over the last couple of years that's what I've been focused on. Great. Well, and just to give a little bit more detail there cuz you're I I relistened to our episode this morning. It's fresh on fresh in my mind. You also talked about, you know, you you did that there was that break after corporate where you were exploring what to do. You considered real estate, um, but decided against it because it didn't seem as dynamic or interesting to you. And as you just touched on briefly here, developing people is something that uh, that you're drawn to and you do that a lot less if at all in real estate versus buying and building small businesses. Um, and you took some of the courses from some of the folks that are big names in the UK kind of business acquisition education market, the the the the Carl Allens, the Jay Jonathan Jay. Jonathan Jay. And Jeremy Harbour. Yep. Jeremy Harbour, right. Um, and that really set you on the path. You're you're probably their exhibit A for somebody who took the learnings and did something with it because we know that a lot of people take courses but don't end up uh action. You uh took took action and then some. Great. Um all right. Yeah. Well, I think it's I think it's probably worth to say because I think uh linked to the point around lots of people not taking action, I think it partly partly the reason for that is there's this whole as you you will appreciate more than most people. There's this whole kind of plethora of um you know, business buying training um you know, selling training to how to buy a business the next thing in terms of get rich quick all that kind of stuff and you end up then with um a lot of people that are maybe not sure what they want to do and think, "Yeah, this this sounds good. It's it's kind of you know, the the fast way to earn a buck." And I think I I'm I'm actually, you know, more and more again disengaged with that whole sort of community and that whole um line of thinking and actually the types of characters that actually come into that sometimes are not not the ones that you want to be associated with and I think that's that's um you know, if I can speak frankly and uh and maybe one of the one of the reasons why a lot of people don't do is because, you know, they're just looking for that next easy thing. They realize that actually maybe it's not that easy and then, you know, go off to the next thing. I think that's probably probably why. Yeah. Well, I I want to um to that point kind of just make a comment about gurus. So, you So, yeah, you know, gurus they're gurus in real estate investing. They're gurus in every kind of get rich quick um area including buying businesses. And there are gurus in the UK. There are gurus in the US. Um and but there are also people who are doing education programs. I'm not saying you were painting everybody with this broad brush, but there I just I just certainly want to say that there are um some some names that'll be familiar to this audience. The Walker DiBels of the world, the Sam Rozatis of the world who are in the here at least here in the US very real people, very direct and transparent about how difficult this path is. Life-changing, yes. Incredibly powerful, incredibly incredibly magical in in many ways, but no joke, not a get rich quick thing, and they are front and center about that all day long, and yet still teach people who are who are serious about this path to do it and to do it well. So, yeah, as you're out there shopping for education, be do so with a very discerning eye cuz there's there are some from camp A and then there's then there's others in camp B. and and well, it's not just it's not just and I'm not this is not a slur on any individual. I'm just saying you know, if you put it out there that there's an opportunity to create wealth quite easily and it can all be done with a few steps etc. Then of course, naturally, you're going to attract people that maybe just don't want to do the hard work work and and maybe maybe there I say even aren't really qualified to kind of get that done and and and deal with the consequences afterwards. So, is it I'm not slurring these individuals necessarily. I'm just saying Mhm. that it's naturally going to happen because there is the a buzz around it. Yeah. So, of course, you get the kind of let's say everyone can can drawn into that and it's so so but no, absolutely, I think there are there are people that do add a lot of value in this space. I'm not suggesting that everyone is is is useless. Not not at all, but I think that's just one of the reasons why a lot of people do it and then don't do it if that's because it's just the the latest almost the latest trend, isn't it? And it's not as easy as perhaps perhaps it's made out to be. I think that that's the word. Great great great clarification. Thanks for that, Sam. Okay, well, let's pick up the plot where we left it last time. You were you had done two acquisitions at Aventos and you were on the cusp of closing your third. Did that one close? And what's happened since? Yeah, the simple answer is yes. So, that one closed. Whether it was then it probably delayed and dragged as these things do a few weeks more than whatever I was suggesting last time. Again, that's one of the learnings in this is is is typically things take slightly longer than you expect them to or you're promised that they will etc. So, you need to be a little bit uh um switched on to that and expect that almost in terms of the process. But yes, we closed on the on that third one, which happened to be a very uh strong uh performance of that business since, which is great. And uh you know, I'm really delighted that as of yesterday and when we spoke, well, um it was going to be done at the early part of this uh the early part of this month, if not before. But again, the same thing, it's kind of dragged on longer. As of yesterday, we completed on the fourth acquisition. So, I'm very very very excited to say that uh yeah, we're we're now we're now four uh four business businesses. But but again, you know, the learning there is it took 2 months longer than we anticipated. Uh in this in this case, it was pretty much all down to the sellers. Uh I would say slow response, and that slow response is partly because of his uh busyness. He was he was extremely busy. The business is doing very well, and he's got a lot of things on his plate, which is which is fair enough. But again, you you can't with these small business acquisitions, you can't sort of say, "Well, this is the timeline. Then we do this, then we do this." You know, because typically on the other side of the transaction, there's somebody A that's never done it before, B that's trying to run their business as well, um and therefore maybe doesn't have the time to to get everything that you need effectively or the different stakeholders need. So, I think just to be realistic with those time frames, I think is is the advice that I would give anyone. And if you're thinking, you know, X months, then probably add another one or two on top of it in terms of what's what's what's realistic. Well, it's such a good illustration, our conversation being scheduled now, Sam, because you and I, when we exchanged emails, we said, "Let's push it out to Let's just be Let's be conservative and push it all the way to December 1st." Yes. And yet, we just made it by a day, as it It out. Yes, exactly, exactly. That was my That was my uh you know, I I was thinking I had to do it by then because otherwise I'm going to go on the podcast and say that we've not completed, but uh but yeah. No, it was uh So, yeah. We're we're we're there. Well, so at the end of last time, if you if you had uh closed the on the third business, which you did, you were saying that you were going to be at 15 million pounds in revenue Yep. uh with about 10% margins. So, if you could show the numbers of the business today with now this third and fourth one in the fold. Yeah, so the third one um meant that the year just finished actually for us is uh I say just finished in uh end of June. Um that on a pro forma basis with the three businesses, assuming that we had them the whole year, did 15 million or 15 and a half million of revenue. So, pretty much in line with where we expected. And I think I said last time 1.4, 1.5, and we did delivered we we had a budget of 1.4. We delivered 1.4 million from an EBITDA perspective. So, uh let's say that sounds like all very robust in terms of um uh delivering what you say, which is again another important thing for me, delivering what you say. Having said that, and we'll I'm sure we'll get into it, there were some ups and downs within there. So, so one business is is suffering a lot and and the other one is performing very well. So, it wasn't like everything was just ticked along nicely. Um some big challenges in there. Um some big down moments uh in there as well that we had to come back from. So, uh but yes, so that that we delivered. And then with this acquisition, that's a further 7 million pounds on a pro forma basis. So, you're talking about 22 between 22 and 23 million. Um and about uh just under 9% EBITDA. So, um we'll we'll be around about 2 million if not uh you know, 1.9, 2 million uh from an EBITDA perspective. And um and we'll start the search now for the fifth and the sixth, and we'll we'll aim to be two more businesses by this time next year. Two more businesses this time next year. Uh and about a third to the way to the third of the way to your goal of 60 million pounds in and and aggregate revenue. That goal may have changed. We're going to get in We're going to get into that in a few minutes. I'll um tease that out though. Uh but you know, one I think one other takeaway um for lack of stating the obvious about the fact that even though your numbers are right in line with where you projected or wanted them to be, that's not things have not been smooth. One has been being battered and the other's been crushing it and so happily it they work each other out. Takeaway being uh diversification, right? This is This is why um this is when not having all of your eggs in a single basket, owning multiple businesses uh really shows its strength. Care to Care to say anything more to that or have I basically just said it? No, I completely agree and I will do recall Will discussion last time, which I think was a really good discussion that is still not 100% clear one way or the other in terms of what drives value in terms of um multiples. We were talking about multiples and the fact that you're not integrating businesses and how does that then drive an increase in multiple? And my argument was around risk. Now, um you know, risk and and and and multiples with valuation sort of go hand in hand and they're you know, um correlated, let's say, inversely, yeah? So, yeah. Um So, there's an example. So, we haven't integrated those businesses and one uh business is in a slightly different, let's say, subsector of what we're looking at. Uh performed very well, continues to perform very well. The other one, the market is very very very challenging at the moment and uh you know, is is really really suffering and we're yeah, we're doing everything that we can to um to to turn it around, but it's very very difficult situation. And that just, you know, says, you know, if we had only done that one acquisition and let's say we double down and and actually built out two or three in the same and integrated those all together, they would be in a situation where they'd all be suffering and we probably wouldn't have a business now. So, um so there's my argument again for diversification is still doesn't have to be integrated to be diversified and I think actually probably the opposite is true. The the less integrated you are the probably the more diversified you are if that makes sense. Yeah. Um so so yeah, so so we have had a really really challenging time. I think you know, we spoke in July and I know a few people on the on the podcast have talked about these kind of fatal moments. Yeah. Um and and and I was I was I was almost there honestly probably not you know, not that long after we spoke probably three months after we spoke probably this time last year. It was a really challenging period. We actually raised a little bit more equity to put into the business. Um and I say we raised I mean I was part of that along with the investors that we had because I felt like we just didn't have the liquidity that we needed. And 100% really down to this down to this one one more struggling business. So, so it's not been easy. I I you we're still not out of the woods, but I think with this fourth acquisition as well which is a business that's doing well in a subsector that's doing well and we're doubling down in that in that area again diversifies that risk even more and it gives us a bit of breathing space and and and head room to fix the issues in that business and come out winning and that's that's definitely the plan that we've got. The business that has suffered, which of the which one was it? The first acquisition or the second? The first the first acquisition. The first acquisition and I I you know, there's a lot of things that we can learn from that and you know, this is always the the challenge is that to look at every um every stress and every pain as an opportunity to learn and I think there's a gift and then you know, one of my friends always says there's a gift in in this somewhere even though you know, you don't realize it yet and I think there is because you don't you think about them not making the same mistakes. You think about actually how you need to pivot away from where where you know, where you're at how you need to diversify even more. Um but it sharpens the brain around what not to do in certain certain cases as well. So so this business um I would say at the time we acquired it we touched on it at the time inflation which is ravaged the world as we know in the last 2 years 18 months as just was just starting to really accelerate and we were sat with contracts where the revenue line or the price to the customer was fixed and they were long-term contracts. So the margins in this business are relatively small and thin anyway. So once you then have you know, all your material costs all of your heating and and plumbing which is this business all of those material costs were going up 10 15 20%. Um and we couldn't really pass most of that cost on. Um so we were then suffering with having to operate these these uh premises projects with very small wafer-thin margins and and and all the effectively all the margin then went went in that in in that business. So um So a very difficult um difficult situation but at the time and I remember saying this last time is we were sat there with with you know, historical trends last 10 years inflation in the industry had never been past 3% in 10 years. And all of all of a sudden it was 1520. Um so, can can you legislate for that when looking? Well, perhaps not. But then, what's happened since is the house cuz that's the residential to new builds, uh housing, big developments of um houses. Right. Um interest rates, as we know, have gone up everywhere uh as well on the following following COVID and the the flood of money into the system. So, interest rates go up, has a knock-on impact on uh consumer demand for for housing. And all of a sudden, you've got a slowdown with developers slowing down the bid build schedules, becoming much more aggressive with their subcontractors around price because they're getting squeezed at the top end. Um so, it's like the perfect storm in that uh in that business right now. And uh um we'll we'll get through it, but it's it's it's a really challenging time. But I again, I would say that if you can get through it, there are a lot of learnings that come out of it and a lot of good, I think, that uh that comes out of that, including your resilience. So, now, you know, we we can go through the same issues I did a year ago. And to be honest, it's not like not that it's water off a duck's back uh is the the saying here. Not that it's kind of you know, I'm flippant about it, but you don't get it doesn't affect you in the same way it did a year ago. And I think that that first experience of well, you know, this could all go wrong very quickly. It's my money on the table. It's my reputation on the table. It's it's everything else to um to now, it's a case of look, there's no point thinking the worst. Let's be positive. Let's get through it. Let's do what we need to do, and things will, you know, have the belief and actually things will come through. So, um yeah, so there's lot lots of learnings. Been a real roller coaster, I would say, the last 12-18 months. It's interesting to hear you the what water off the duck's back because when I've talked to people about the fetal position moments they've had and and and gotten through and they're on the other side and maybe they're years down the road, one of the things that comes up as they look they reflect back on those moments and they're like I've had equally dire moments since. Yeah. But I just I built armor. You know, I've I've developed a thicker skin. So maybe some of the and I don't mean to belittle anybody who's really the pain of the struggle when you're a small business owner and things are looking dire. Um but after hearing that a few times you do start to wonder if maybe it's not as dire as it seems and it's the experience of a rookie feeling that squeeze for the first time and and later that squeeze won't won't cause them to sweat quite as much. I think I think that's absolutely true Will, honestly. I think it's a different environment. So So my my career, uh I've been in some stressful situations, but they're very different when um you know, your context is different. It's not about your in the in the main it's not about your livelihood, it's not about your financial situation, it's not about people's jobs in the main. There are have been occasions where where it has been difficult really difficult situations, but it's the corporate career I would say your stresses and strains are different and I think your first one being an entrepreneur is is a wake-up call um because it's a different it's different experience and I think once you get not that anyone wants to get used to those experiences, but I think part of it is the fact that you've just never been exposed to that kind of pressure. Yeah. Um you've been exposed to pressure and I've always been one that's dealt very well with pressure. Um but it was just a different kind of pressure that I wasn't used to and I just didn't know what to do with it in you know, for a period of time for a period of time. And And now And I think there's there's learnings on that front for people listening, I would advocate massively that what gets you through is you know, things like at least for me things like having a a particular focus on routines, which means that you continue to do stuff cuz otherwise you can just freeze and go, "Wow, I've got so many things that I need to do. I just don't know where to go." So, routines, I think exercise drives massively a mindset thing for me. So, getting into decent routines, doing exercise on a regular basis clears your head, gives you the more, let's say, confidence and um a feeling of positivity. And these these things are are all uh important. The other thing that um uh I think is is nice. There's a couple of sayings that are not mine, but I've I've listened to over the last few months, actually. And one of them is a guy actually we were doing a talk at somewhere I was yesterday. He said, "You got to remember um um a nice way of putting it is pressure um pressure creates diamonds." Um so, so that's got I thought that was that was quite a nice one. Pressure creates diamonds. Um but you need to be able to withstand the pressure in order to create that diamond. And another one which I think is really true to my a lot of my beliefs is you know, your reality, regardless of how bad your reality is, your reality is somebody else's dream. And you need to you need to think about that. It's coming back to the whole gratitude point. So, that helped me a lot. So, I thought that I was going to lose a lot of money. I was going to lose my reputation. I was going to to let down people, which is a massive issue for me. I was going to have livelihoods at stake, and all these things go through your mind. But then you go, "Well, you know, I've got a family. I've got two young children that are beautiful. I've had experiences that other people would dream of. I'm still in a position financially that I'm not broken." All these things. And I think I think, you know, many people will call it out as you know, this whole gratitude thing, but when you're in the in the in the in the so to speak, Mhm. these things really help. And actually having that context and perspective is is really important. And now I can use these as tools much more because things don't get to me as much because I'm kind of used to it. Um but I'm also realized the power of these tools. And these tools just kind of help you kind of carry it carry through. But but yeah, I mean I think the the watch out for people as well is is sometimes this is not easy, right? So um if you think it's going to be a walk in the park, then then maybe think again. Now, you might be lucky and you might find the right business the right the first time. And maybe people could say, "Well, you bought the wrong business the first time." Well, maybe. Uh you know, it's on it's on me. Uh maybe I I couldn't have foreseen how the market was going to go, which is the lion's share of where the issues are. Um but uh but certainly doing your homework around having the right business that's got um some good characteristics that minimize that risk is is important because where you know, things do dip off, it becomes uh difficult mentally quite quickly. Yeah. Thank you for Sam. There was there was a lot there. That was that was really fantastic. Um it I I the um you said something that I I just had ah one of the points about I I love the your reality is somebody else's dream. Um your reality can be your own dream as well. The dream of a three or five year younger Sam or whomever it is. I had an interview last night with somebody it'll air right around when this one does. Uh and he bought a business in the in a second and it's doing phenomenally well, but it's also phenomenally difficult. Not not because the business is going to collapse. It's just a tremendous amount of responsibility on his shoulders. And so while from the outside everything is going swimmingly or much or to as an understatement, he still finds himself pining for the days of his W-2 and which is US parlance for, you know, having a job. He's still pining for the the lack of the lack relative lack of responsibility of when he when he he wasn't in charge of 100 people. And he has to kind of shake himself and be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't This I'm living my own dream. I'm living my own dream now of a few years ago." So, pretty pretty interesting. Yeah, I and I don't think I I think the whole responsibility of something, let's say, that's that's going well, the whole responsibility of being responsible for people, for me, is not an issue. In fact, you know, people would I was having this conversation with somebody yesterday around, you know, what you're good at and what you're not good at and actually, um, "Are you not scared about what you're trying to do in terms of the numbers involved and actually do adding two more and, you know, borrowing this and do that?" I mean, honestly, the bigger it gets, the easier it is for me. Um, because that's what I'm used to. I'm used to dealing with, uh, lots of, you know, having a team of 2,000 people all over the world. Um, you know, these things don't phase me at all. The responsibility for these things is I This really isn't an issue. What's an issue is the is the feeling of actually um, it's going wrong and then you start to go get ahead of yourself in terms of the potential implications of that. But I think the general responsibility of running a business or running a group or of these of the people underneath that group and I think it's something I relish, not not the other way around. Let's touch a little bit on this point about integration, which we which you brought up and and we did spend some time on last last go around. Yeah. So, as you as you just, uh, hinted at, you're buying businesses that are kind of under the umbrella of HVAC, um, but they they all they operate in different sub niches, sub sectors. Uh, and you're not and you're and you're not doing an integration play where you're bringing them all together as one cohesive entity. And as you just said, part of part of that is for because actually keeping them as kind of discrete entities, that diversification helps with risk, helps minimize risk. It seems like you now have front Yep. proof of that, exactly. You now have proof of that. Um but there was one synergy that you thought that you might be able to to use across these businesses, which was the cross-selling. Yep. Um so they might be able to feed each other leads and business. Has that played out? Um I would say yes, it has. Um but not and we never expected this to be significant early on because for me, the more businesses that you have, the more opportunities there are to do it. So it's one of these things that will actually accelerate, not be linear with the number of businesses that you can you bring on. Um so we never fact Well, we one, we never factored in any of the these numbers anyway to our business plans. It was always an on top. Um but in terms of what we've seen, we've seen bits and pieces. Uh interestingly, we've already seen from the new company that's joined even before they joined because the process was so long, they already started to give some work to one of our companies in the in the group because um they knew they were coming into the group and so that's and with that fourth acquisition, you can just see the there's there's quite a lot of opportunity to to to do that. Um so like I say, I think it will accelerate more and no no question at all, there'll be plenty of those opportunities. So it's been bits and pieces uh to date, but it that's that still holds true, absolutely. But I think um I mean, it might be helpful to uh to share a little bit the the evolution of our thinking in that regard. So what we've done since uh 18 months ago is we've developed more the thinking around our strategy and our business model. Um so we're now clear that actually, you know, we have um the way we would describe our um well, our vision first of all, which I think is probably illustrates the point of what we are. So, our vision is to be the UK's favorite platform. Uh note the word platform um for independent mechanical and electrical, so M&E, so slightly wider than HVAC. Um it's it's a slightly wider definition, but uh so uh UK's favorite platform for independent M&E businesses uh delivering more than 150 million a year in revenue within a tight 10-year time frame. So, that's kind of that's our that's our vision. Um but this concept of being a platform what what does that actually mean? And what what what benefits does that give to uh to our uh businesses coming in and sitting on that platform, we then say, well, there there three core categories of benefit, which is what drives value. Number one is what we call the collaborative initiatives, so the cross-sell being one of them, or the biggest one. Um buying together, so some supplier overlaps within there is is a is a second. And then the uh let's say cross uh pollination of knowledge and expertise across the group is is one that is difficult to quantify, but is significant and there's a lot of things happening I would say on that on that front, okay? So, that's the kind of working together, collaborating with each other is is is number one. Number two is what we talk about um our and we touched on this last time, we call it uh the Advantos framework, which is loosely based on the EOS framework, um which is the entrepreneurial operating system. So, we have then we bring what we bring is management expertise around running businesses. So, I now have a CFO. I have a chief support officer, which is also my my wife, uh who's now working full-time with me in the in the business. Uh we've just hired a chief operating officer who will start in uh in March. Already all those already starting to to be involved. Um, all of us come from a larger organization with uh much, I say, greater expertise around process, systems, uh strategy, finance, all of these things. So, we can bring um let's say management expertise to these businesses. So, that's number two. But, we call that the Advantos framework where we take we take every business through creating their own vision and values and and uniqueness in the marketplace, strategy, all this kind of stuff. Um, putting putting management accounts in place, putting scorecards in place so we've got the right data to manage. Uh, documenting processes, looking at the tech stack and and seeing how can how can we move towards a common tech stack over time, which is you know, loosely not integrating but sharing common best practice. So, that's what we call the the the Advantos framework. And then we have also, on top of that, we have group services. And then we touched on that last time as well. But, we now will offer certain things at a group level, which doesn't make sense to be done at an individual company level. I'll give you one one example of that um is marketing um anything to do with website management uh but also, to a certain extent, business development. So, all of these businesses in this space are pretty hopeless at driving um business development, driving into new customers um in in an intentional way. Everything comes through through relationships, which is great. Relationships, word of mouth, maybe a little bit of networking, which is great. But, there's no other intentional uh use of technology as part of that. So, we are now setting up campaigns to look at uh you know, using LinkedIn, looking at profiles in LinkedIn, automating things uh that we can connect to people, uh want to want to set up meetings with people to try and create a funnel of opportunities for each of the businesses. There's no point doing that at a business-by-business level. And if you look at any business doing 5 million, 6 million, 7 million in this space, none of them are doing anything like that. None of them. You know, and I've spoken to 100 And why why does it not make sense for a smaller business like that to do that? Because Because that's not that's that's that's not And I'm I'm generalizing here, but to Not not that you need scale, but you need um you need a way of thinking that that's that's what you need to do. So, uh 90% of these businesses are owned by engineer-led people, right? So, they're the people that have actually grown the business from being on the tools, on the They don't necessarily think like that. They don't think that actually there's any need. We've grown a reasonable rate, let's say, to 5, 6 million, and then it tends to get a little bit harder, and that's when a lot of them want support and want to want to potentially exit. But they don't create any internal capability for things that are these new modern ways of using technology, using um using um uh more management techniques, let's say, in order to drive business in a more intentional way. And what you want to have is more predictability to your revenue, don't you? You So, you don't want to be there and say, "Well, I might get a new contract from someone cuz I went to go play golf with him last week." And that's all great, but you want to be able to see that I know that if I do this many contacts, this many uh um in outreaches, I can actually start to get a little bit more predictable about where my future revenue's coming from. Um and actually we can accelerate the growth even further. So, So, it just typically doesn't happen. It's not that that is a particular big cost that needs scale, but that those expertise don't exist in these businesses. Um but I and and we can do that with in fact, 5% of my time, uh or 10% of my time, or 10% of one of my teams uh time in in a group just because that's that's more natural for us if that makes sense. So Yeah. So so group service could be marketing, could be business dev, could be HR, could be managing the fleet as one, could be a number of things that could be done at a group level where it just makes sense to do that. Maybe it's not been done at all currently by each of the operating companies and therefore they can leverage that. So there's three blocks, collaborative initiatives, management expertise, and group services that they can tap into. That's where we drive and add value. Um As part of that we are looking at what is a what is our target technology stack that in an ideal world every business moves towards. Um and that and that potentially, you know, moves you closer towards what you might call an integration, but it's but we're still not integrating the businesses at that stage. We're just leveraging the same sorts of things. Sam, I was going to ask you, but you've already answered it. You know, you the idea of diversification buying have kind of disintegrated businesses although with cross-selling opportunities. Um means means this diversification, but at at the same time though you are in a single industry. Subsectors, but within a single industry. So you've got diversification down here, but at a top level you've gone all in on a single industry. But as I just heard you talk about the overall strategy and vision, it's interesting because you So you are going all in on mechanical and electrical. So you don't have industry diversification. So one So I should ask you like if you if you're a big believer in diversification, why aren't you buying in completely separate industries? But let me put a pin on that. Cuz I think the answer is I think I know the answer, which is that if you found a big macro industry, mechanical and electrical pretty giant industry, and it's got good characteristics and great growth prospects, You can feel pretty confident that there's always going to be a need for that and that that it's a good industry selection. But inside that, then you have all these ways that if if the industry if the businesses aren't identical, but they're loosely similar and they have a lot of kind of similar functioning, then you can then you can you can get these synergies that you're doing, the three pillars that you just you just described. Yeah. And you can have like a you know, you could call them group services. I tend to hear them called shared services here. But you know, kind of a centralized services. And centralized services, shared services, group services maybe don't work when you've got completely different business a basket of businesses which are in completely different industries. So you have kind of this interesting sweet spot of diversifi- diversified types of businesses, but under an umbrella of an industry where you get the benefit of diversification, but also you you you but not so much diversification that you can't layer in a shared services model. Yeah. Uh well, I think you've you've answered your own question. Uh well, I think exactly right. So um interestingly um we're I'm looking at this week in terms of M&A models and the way of looking at your your targeting for M&A, which again, I think now is is for us is going to get to the next level of being much more strategic around where we go. But if you think about it on an axis, uh um or on two axis, you've got um you know, products and services and and and type and and maybe customers or customer groups or whatever. So you you can you can stay in your um you know, highly focused area of, you know, acquiring businesses in same sorts of customers, same sorts of products and services, which are similar businesses. Or you can go uh you know, different services, but same customers. So the chain or you can go different services, different customers. Um but you get to a point where you go all the way outside of that and you go completely different business in a completely different industry in a completely different There for me is a very little benefit of doing that I part from a complete diversification approach, but then you would leverage none of the benefits of what we're talking about and then and therefore for me it's it it doesn't make sense to do because our focus is is businesses that make sense as an ecosystem or to be part of the same the same group and they make sense to be part of the same group. Um, there's enough I think there's enough diversification within that if we get that right. Um, that you got to think the whole I mean you can call it different things, but the whole M&E industry is relatively robust is relative relatively non-cyclical is not going to be completely transformed tomorrow by technology. So it doesn't have those massive risks if you're diversified within it. Now what we've seen is you know on hand in the construction world we've been uh, bitten because construction for new for houses has gone down because of certain characteristics, but in the what we would call the built environment so existing properties the demand is sky-high and that for therefore that's kind of offset that, but that's all within that kind of wider ecosystem. So I think that's proven the point there's enough diversification in there, but but we want to make sure that with each of the businesses they can benefit from those three things they can benefit from collaboration with other companies. They can benefit from um, management expertise that we can bring on top which you could argue could be any business to be fair, but they can also benefit from the group or shared services which again would be more difficult to do if we were then having to learn how to do that in a completely different industry. Um, you know, it's just it's just difficult. So I think you answered it. Um, yourself, but uh, but yeah that's that's our philosophy around what we're what we're doing. Great, Tim. Okay, well one thing I also want to hear a little bit more on is we talk if we talked in our first interview about who runs the port the port cos the portfolio of businesses. Yep. And you generally I I I now now I'm forgetting I maybe sometimes an owner stuck around. Yep. Uh but sometimes it was promoting the number two. Yep. Um so you now you've you've now had four runs at this or three runs and you're about to you're about you have a plan presumably for your fourth acquisition I hope. Yep. Uh so so what what have you learned and what yeah, what have you learned about that that cuz that's such a crucial Yeah. I mean that's almost the name that's all you know almost all the success hinges on who's leading these port cos. I think it does and I think it's it's obvious to say that but it's I still not obvious enough for people. So, um what I mean by that is and I've fallen foul for this up until now. Um I said up until now. Probably up until now actually is again not being intentional with that thinking around let's say this business that we we we bringing in now the owner wants to stay around he wants support to grow the business which is which is which is great and we can work with that and actually we've got we share the same values I think in which are very important for for me in terms of making sure that that fit is right. Um so just so happens I think this is going to work out really really well um because we're both we've spent a long time together we're both aligned around what we're trying to create. The way I've structured this deal in fact is actually meaning I've given him as part of the consideration shares in our group. So that's another I guess talking point in does it make sense to to look at financing through different different ways and and using paper or equity swaps effectively as part of that. So I think there's a a deal of alignment but I think in the up until then we've been quite opportunistic and I think um So we've got to two and two. Two um two people staying and two people that have left and then the number twos have stepped up and I think um we haven't been intentional about that uh enough about that and what what I I guess what I mean by that is we should be looking and every every person should be looking very very carefully at what is that management solution that's I'm bringing in. If it is the former owner that's staying, the key question is do they have the appetite to work the way we also want them to work? And I don't mean that to be a sort of a dictatorial approach. I mean, we have a philosophy. We have a a way of trying to manage. We have a framework that we're trying to impart on the businesses around best practice. You know, are they going to run with that or not? And being much more intentional with that thought process, I think it's critical because one thing that I perhaps have learned is it's quite difficult to get change with people if they're not that way thinking. To try to change their way of thinking is very very difficult and I think we we have got one experience of uh of that, I would say, where we're just not really getting traction with any of the cha Oh, that's a bit harsh. Not enough traction with what we want to do. Uh and in my mind the business is not moving forward in the way that it needs to, if that makes sense. So I think being much more intentional about when you're looking at companies and this person who wants to stay, great. Is he really the type of person that's going to be around for 6 months of transition knowledge transfer and I need to bring someone else in? If the answer's yes, who's my backup to bring uh to to bring in? So that's something we're now trying to build is a is a network of potential MDs that won't want to or GMs that might want to to join. And that's what my role now is linking with many more people in the industry cuz I'm not from the industry to make sure that if we do need to replace someone we've got two or three or four candidates that might be suitable, our way of thinking aligned in what we're trying to do that we could actually put there. But be intentional about that. Don't just think cuz the guy wants to stay, that's great, that's problem solved. If you want to work in a certain way, are they really aligned with that way of thinking? Can they be aligned with that thinking? Can they really adapt to that way of thinking? It's much easier bringing a number two up cuz they're not the owner, they've not everything's typically not got to be their way and they're maybe a little bit more malleable to to what you want to try to do. And I don't want to give the impression here that we're basically dictating everything in the company, that's not the case. What we're trying to say is there's a few certain things that make sense to look at and I'll give you one one example and this is a talking point I think in uh in in in buying businesses, but what one of the things that we want to do now is in our industry which is blue collar industry and many of your uh uh guests are in similar industries and listeners will be in similar industries. The use of technology and the use of AI for example is very uh is quite limited in this space and I think we have an opportunity to almost create at least for a short period of time a competitive advantage by using technology, by using AI that others are just simply miles behind the curve and just won't get to quickly, right? So, that's our way of thinking from a group perspective. What are we doing? What can we do? Da da da. That's the way we think. But trying to get that change in a business that doesn't want to be you thinking about you know, using technology in that way or changing their process radically or or it's it's just it feels sometimes like you're pushing water uphill. Um so I think that's that's a great example where you've really got to be intentional about who that person is that's going to work with you. Are they like-minded? Do they think are they likely to come on board with your overarching strategies? Not that I want to get involved in day-to-day decisions, I don't. That's for the business. But in terms of how we can compete in the marketplace as a whole, how we can differentiate ourselves as a whole, how we can leverage industry and technology trends in a way that's far more quickly than others are doing. This is what we need to impose because that's uh you know, that's our the way we'll survive and the way we'll prosper. But I you know, you need people then to work with you on that and some some for some people it's easy and some it's not. And that that's a big learning. So it's a big watch out for people thinking about who's the who's the manager. If they're not going to manage it themselves, who's the manager? Are they aligned with my way of thinking in terms of those those things? I think it's a it's a big it's a big topic. I want to pivot a little bit and kind of step back and and talk bigger vision and numbers and just the entire project of building a Holdco and and and you know, what what what's kind of underlying all this. You were very transparent about that in the in our first call. And so I want to revisit some of that. Uh it was it was really great and valuable. So um I'll just I'll just take the words your previous words out of your mouth. So just So one of the things that you shared with us was your goal at the time or when you started on this venture was basically in 5 years to build a Holdco to a 20 million pound exit. That's not 20 million pounds in your pocket. You have investors and there will probably be some debt on that business, but an enterprise value of 20 million pounds. Um, and you backed into that quite arithmetically. You know, that meant 60 60 million pounds in revenue assuming 10% margins, assuming a multiple of 5.7 to 6 where you're buying at three to three and a half. So, some arbitrage there, multiple arbitrage, and then and again with like a five-year plan. Uh, so when I earlier said that you're a third of the way there cuz you're you're now just over 20 million pounds. Uh, so a third of the way is 60. But now I've heard you say the the number 150 million pounds. So, so update us on this this plan. So, I I think the first is the the time frame. So, your time horizon. I think when we spoke last time, I was thinking about the five-year time horizon more as a typical kind of window by which you um, to then sort of put something put this kind of if you like a call it a a buy and build um, together and actually create some value to think about an exit in my conversation with investors at the time would have been along those lines and therefore it wasn't just me and therefore I'd kind of guided towards that because that would seem like a sensible time horizon to look at. I think since what's happened since um, my my view is I think the opportunity is greater, number one. Um, why I think the opportunity is greater just because even though there's been challenges I think um, there is more value that we can add and the more we do this the better we'll become. The more we can choose to then uh, reinvest some of the profits into better group services, into better value producing items and I think that it just becomes a bit of a flywheel. So, I really think that the opportunity is bigger. I don't want to be out of this in in five five years. I'm still young enough to think about a horizon that's longer than that. So, I've extended um the time horizon to be a 10-year time horizon. So, my plans now are going to 2033. Um we One of the things that we did, which I would advise again depending on where people's status is at, but we put together an advisory board. So, I have four non-executive advisers that um help us. And to be fair, we've only had two meetings so far, so it's only um relatively new. We only meet every three or four months, so it's kind of three or four times a year. Um but the first meeting was around strategy and business model. And I think what those meetings do is force me as the owner of the strategy, and that's the bit that I'm I'd say relatively good at, is to really think more clearly around all of this kind of stuff. So, we put together a a bunch of stuff around that, and we we got some um some some pushback in some areas, and and we had a a good discussion around what made sense, and did I need to slow down first, get some things right, and then speed up later, and all all of that kind of thing. So, we've redone the plan, but we've modeled it in in a little bit more detail than perhaps was the high level before. Um so, we now have a 10-year plan of uh reaching 150 million. In fact, we put that in the vision, and that vision is now uh explicit. And you know, we talk to to investors, we'll talk to lenders, we'll talk to partners, we'll talk to our teams now about that vision of moving to 150 million uh pounds of revenue within a 10-year uh time frame. So, our um goals are 150 million uh revenue. Actually, we want to be 11% um uh I won't go into details why 11, but 11% from an EBITDA perspective, which is about 16.5 million. We think the valuation at that stage will be uh around about seven uh seven to eight times um in terms of where we've been thinking, guiding, having conversations with private equity, et cetera, et cetera. So, um enterprise value of uh whatever the whatever the math come out to. I mean, for me for me, and I can't remember the numbers, but for me now that 20 million, which was actually the 20 million was for me, so it was slightly north of that and including it investors. Um for me for me, it's more like 50 now, but in a 10-year uh in a 10-year uh time horizon. Um And in reality, that 10 year isn't a fixed 10 year, well, so it's not like I need to exit in 10 years, um but that's the if you like your the value of the business in 10 years. I I can quite see, and I've been inspired a little bit by um reading more around um uh how private equity works and and uh so, there's a great and not not that I want to plug someone else, but a great uh book by Adam Coffey that you will have heard of, I I guess. Uh this this guy called uh uh Empire Builder. Um he's done three books, I think, now. It uh um Private Equity Playbook, The Exit Strategy Playbook, and Empire Builder, this is the new one that's come out. And that reading that is a great read for people that are wanting to go on a kind of buy and build, and he's his ethos there, and he's absolutely right, is, you know, don't think about a single exit. So, actually, why don't you think about bringing, you know, private equity in maybe as a minority initially, um at at at a level and my my the way I think is at a level where you might get to three or four million from an EBITDA perspective, and maybe you sell 25 30% of the business at that stage, but then, you know, with their help as well, cuz they should be bringing something to the table, not just access to the to cheaper debt capital as well, which is part of it, but also expertise around how to how to grow and how to, you know, source more businesses. They will be looking for a 3x three times return on invested capital. So, if you then do the maths and you know, you get that number and then you can maybe move into to to to sell another chunk of the business and then sell another chunk of the business. So, I don't I don't see that you need to be a single 10-year an exit in 10 years. I think that could be into the multiple chunks. And and again, if you think if you come back to what why is it that I want to do that? Is because I want to free up capital, free up uh resources in order to invest in philanthropic areas along the journey. I want to start doing that, you know, in the next within the next couple of years ideally. So, so to kind of start getting those um those returns. I would say openly well, and we can come back to these numbers in a second. I would say openly that you know, I don't take any money out of the business at the moment. Um and the reason I don't is because one, we haven't needed to because I had some other income streams that have meant that I didn't need to. And secondly, I wanted to make sure that we give the business every chance, every bit of headroom, you know, to to reinvest all of that into making sure that we can deliver in the long term. So, for me it's about the medium to long term. It's not about the short term. And another great quote I've got and I read every morning is a quote. I forget who it's from. But it's a quote that says don't give up what you really want for what you want now. And that for me is a is a test of me, you know, eating junk for example, or having too many drinks, or what whatever it is. It, you know, don't sacrifice the short term, or sorry, what you really want, which is in the long term for stuff that is just short term, um, you know, gratification. I think that is not, um, thought about enough. But that for me is is what it is. I don't I'm my time horizon is a 10-year time horizon. It's not a next year, I need to have this much cash. It's like I don't really care as long as we're surviving, it's a 10-year time horizon. So a a bump in the road might happen as long as we can kind of get through and move on with that big picture in mind. Um, that's that's uh that's where we're at. So we're at. So it's a 50 million, let's say, valuation for or creating value along the way, 50 million, uh, for for me in order to be really impactful with the with the with those funds. Mhm. I I don't know if the name Chinmark means anything to you, but they're they're the buyers of some of these businesses holding companies here in the in in the US up in Maine. Uh, and one of the they have a newsletter that they put out every week and they talk a lot about the just kind of the the softer side of this whole project. Um, less tactical, more just kind of philosophical. And delayed gratification is a favorite is a favorite subject of theirs. So they come back to that theme again and again and again, yeah. Yeah. And and and by the way, that's another that's another differentiator. When we're when we were talking at the top about the people who take action in this world and want to buy and truly do buy business versus those who are attracted by it but don't, um, is the appetite or the the ability to have delayed gratification cuz this is a way to build wealth uh, but not a way to build wealth quickly. Um, and so that quick word filters out a lot of people. Com- comp- comp- completely completely agree and I think that's that is one thing and we talked about it a little bit last time, but one thing I really wanted to get across for me, it's it's as much about those other things. It's as much about, you know, the purpose in our organization is creating success um, uh, by driving value for for all and that means all stakeholders. So, for me very and we we we we're developing a website for the group now that will be launched on Monday or Tuesday next week now we've got the acquisition done. And it's it has all this in there in terms of you know what who are the stakeholders that we're talking about so and and how do we create success for those stakeholders? So, for me it's about the employees and the teams and the and and the and the and the management teams of each of these companies. It's about the former owner creating value for them either as part of their journey with us or as you know creating value for them in terms of you know what we're able to provide to them as a result of them building value in their business over the years. It's about customers in terms of value. How can we improve service for customers as a result of us being together? It's about communities. How do we create an impact in our communities? One of the things that we've just done recently is developed a people strategy because that was a missing link for us. We have an M&A strategy. We have a what are these platform benefits if you like creating these opportunities for business but the third pillar is how do we develop our people within that context? And we are a service business. People is our product ultimately so none again none of these businesses do this well so we've created a framework for for that but one of the things was we're going to give people time off paid time off every year to help in local community projects which is each business will come up with two or three kind of key things where they they they pay their employees to basically go and volunteer for for these things. And I think that's something that we can then you know we want to be having a positive impact in our communities as well. And so for me it's very much creating success for all. It's all stakeholders. It's not just about it's certainly not just about me or it's not about shareholders. It's about all stakeholders and that and that's that's that's the purpose that we've got so and again I I see that I don't see that everywhere. Well, that's you know, everyone's different, right? But for me, I tend to resonate and sort of um now sort of get work tend to work much better with people that have a kind of similar values. So, and and similar kind of ethos. So, the people that we create recruited a group level now, we just recruit uh recruited a COO, a CFO, etc. They've got similar kind of values because if not, it doesn't really work cuz you're then you know, you you're off in different directions and that that's at the heart of what we do. So, um bringing it all together and that's you know, I just I just think there's so much power in this. Um but it's you know, you get you can sort of look at the short-term and go, "Oh we've got a cash flow issue next week." Um but you got to remember, this is part of a bigger journey that yes, we'll we'll get over that and we'll we'll juggle the balls and whatever we'll need to do, but it's part of a bigger impact and I think that bigger impact can be huge in the next 10 years. But we need a we need a bigger we need a bigger time horizon to to think, otherwise we'll think too small. Yeah. Great. I love on when when thinking about short-term versus long-term and in the ups and downs, uh if I if I if I can try to explain a visual without butchering it in people's minds, but basically a line on a graph and you know, when you zoom in and you're looking at short-term, the line is really bumpy, ups and downs, ups and downs. Um but when you zoom way out, the trajectory of that line is up and to the right. Yeah. And and those bumps those bumps along the way get lost as just noise if you zoom out far enough. I love that I love that I love that. That's a great That's a great way of thinking about it. And I think I think this you know, what is your time horizon and therefore, try to make decisions that are congruent with that time horizon. And don't think about making a decision because next week it will give me this. This comes back to that delayed gratification. What is the best decision? Okay, you can't put your business in in jeopardy. So you So you got to balance that out absolutely, but think if you could going to thinking in line with your time horizons, you're I think it it frees you up to be more creative or think bigger. Um and I think that's been a helpful um context um for me. And part of this stuff is is I spend a lot of time and money or reasonable amount of time and money on on being part of the these kind of mastermind programs as well where you're with like-minded business owners with a great coach that's that's bringing external speakers and content and and just getting you to think think about some of these things as well. And I think if you don't stand back and every now and then and and look at things in a in a in a you know, without the day-to-day kind of craziness that goes on, um then you kind of miss the big picture and you miss taking the right calls um I think or you you're in jeopardy of doing that at least. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Sam, something that strikes me about you see if if this lands well is that you you are really thoughtful about your goals and then you work backwards from them. Um and you know, that that that's kind of some that sounds kind of trite like and you know, any number of whatever strategic approaches will tell you to do that, but it's actually something that a lot of people uh have a hard time either don't know to do or have a hard time disciplining themselves to do including yours truly. You you kind of are always looking forward uh and what should I do next as opposed to okay, what you know, what do I want in 5 to 10 years or 10 years? What's my time horizon? Let's call it 10 years. What do I want then? And let's almost reverse engineer that outcome. Um that really came across in in interview number one and it's coming across again right now. And speaking of goals, uh we're going to start wrapping up here, Sam, but um you you touched on your your philanthropic uh motivation and you did last time as well, but I didn't ask you to give us more color. You there also have a pretty a pretty specific goal there, although I I you know, the other thing about specific goals is that doesn't mean they're fixed forever. You can have a specific goal today that you tweak tomorrow and it's something else, but it's always nice to have um something quite specific that you're working toward. Tell us a little bit about this this this vision philanthropic vision you have. Yeah, so I I had a I don't know whether the word is fascination or appreciation or somewhere of a cross between the two of of Thailand as a place. It's been a place that I've visited many many times both on holiday both through work. We used to have offices there, so I was there quite a lot. We've hosted events there. Um but I did spend some time helping a community there and this was back maybe 10 12 years ago. And I spent I think it was 2 weeks helping a community. Uh it was actually helping build part of a school uh which was very very rewarding working with with the locals there, but also helping some small local businesses with some of their challenges and and that sort of thing and it was really a very special experience for me and I think that coupled with the fact that it is genuinely my favorite place in the world anyway in terms of the people, the food, the culture, the landscape, the craziness, the kind of diversity. Um and a number of things there including the value for money things are of a very good value for money if you want to enjoy the experience of going there as well. So I just I just I'm just attracted to that and I know a lot of people there and and and and I I see the impact that actually a relatively small amount of money can have on communities. And that's what's driven me in terms of my ability to have a probably a bigger impact in a place like that that's close to my heart than perhaps let's say here in the UK where the same amount of money would go and and help in far less people in terms of the amount of money that you do you need. So, the numbers that I had to initially were to help sustainably improve 30,000 people's lives. And the reason why I had 30,000 people was because the where I play where I was staying um was uh in a place that if I looked at the sort of perimeter of all the local communities in in the kind of vicinity where we were it was around about that number. And that number's always kind of stuck with me then in terms of imagine your ability to create sustainably improve lives for that whole community. And that's kind of what's what's driven with me. So, um so that's kind of where where it kind of comes from. I need to kind of start moving on it sooner or later. One of the nice things is and I have this actually on my uh part of my daily review and and and and visualization almost is looking at this place in in in Thailand and thinking about actually taking my family and my business partners there for my 60th birthday, which is in Mhm. 15 years time. So, it's still quite quite a way off. Um but that's that's my vision that I can then take them there. We can we can have not only experience the greatness of Thailand, but also visit the foundation and show them all the good stuff that we've done. And that's the kind of visualization I have. Now, um I'm taking my dad to Thailand next in in February because he'll probably be too old at that point when you know to to to benefit. So, I really want before he's too old to to take him there to take him there. So, I'm just me and him traveling there for 2 weeks, which will be great, which will be yeah, a one once-in-a-lifetime experience in February. So, that's kind of where it comes from. Now, you know, I'm not saying we won't be looking to do other things as well, but that's that's a kind of a big part of um uh what I was aiming to to do. Thanks for sharing that, Sam. That's a a beautiful vision. I've not been to Thailand uh sadly because um I've just heard countless times how uh what a wonderful country it is. So, certainly on top of my list, but not yet. Well, if you if you if you do go, then let me know and I'll make sure that Yeah. A, you go to the right places, and two, that you're you're looked after. Okay, great. Um All right, Sam, let's let's wrap up here. I guess I would ask uh for you to reflect for the for I guess now we're talking about people who are kind of attracted to this concept, this space, this this adventure of of build buying businesses. Um now that you've got another 18 months of experience doing it, two more acquisitions under your belt. Um you're thinking very strategically at this point. Anything that you Anything you might want to tell them about doing this? Um I think in my reflection and my perspective is if you're doing this just for the money, um I think um it will be hard. It will be hard because as we've just discussed, I think there is a wealth creation opportunity a significant wealth creation opportunity here, but it's not going to happen overnight. And don't assume that actually all of a sudden, you know, that just you know, fountains of money just kind of are generated by by doing this. I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but it's probably been done in many different areas. I mean, generally speaking, it's hard work. I always said before this is not complex necessarily. It's not that complex. Um but it's not easy. As well. So, one thing is it there's a there's a set number of things that you need to do. Um and if you do those, you can be successful, but it's hard work. So, if you think it's going to be a quick uh quick return, then I would maybe focus on on other things. I think it's it's helpful to have some other passion than just the numbers. Um that would be my kind of reflection. I think then on being more practical around, you know, tips and and things to to focus on, stating the obvious and you've talked about it uh a number of times is really being um focused on ensuring that the business that you're acquiring is as predictable as it can be and as low risk as possible. Is especially the first one is is paramount cuz if you only have one and it goes wrong, then you're then you're out of the game potentially. So, that first one for me whilst there's a there's a there's a there's an argument for just getting in the game, for me there's also an argument for making sure that that's not too high risk because getting in the game enables you to then step up, diversify, etc. If the first one is then um uh you know, too much of a risk and actually that risk goes wrong, then um you're potentially out of the game. So, that would be another one. The third one we touched on as well is be intentional about who you want to work with. So, if you're working with people um both from a group perspective if you're setting a whole co-op a whole co-op or working with an MD or general manager in a business, is just make sure that the values aspect at least are aligned. Uh and that you feel that they're they're going to be able to work with your vision in terms of what you want to do. Otherwise, it'd be very very difficult and you'll get very frustrated very very quickly, I would say. So, that that would be my kind of Those are great. quick uh quick reflections and and and advice. Thank you for those Sam, those were great. If people want to reach out, what's the best way to do that? Yeah, so I'm on uh on LinkedIn and and actually this is one of the the benefits uh uh I've done a a few podcasts, but I think I've got the most um people reach out from from yours, Will. And which is slightly odd in the sense that most of the audiences US-based. Um but I've had people from the US uh contact me, which is which is great. I mean, many of the things are you know, they go across cross borders, don't they in terms of some of the some of the um some of the core elements here. Um so yeah, it's LinkedIn. Uh I'm on LinkedIn, but um otherwise uh my email address uh also um people want to email me is sam.turner @advantus.com. So that's the other way. Uh and and feel free to reach out. I love speaking to people. Um I will always try to get back to people and uh and uh and and and allocate time because that's also the purpose. My my own personal purpose is to help others, so um so yeah, so it'd be it's been great for the the follow-up from from the last time and and to engage with people and try and help a few people. So I'm more than happy to do that again. Well Sam, the the audience is a smidge bigger this time around than last time. Yes, yes. I would expect some some inbound. Yeah, and congrats to you on that as well, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. This has been great, Sam. Thanks very much for coming back on Acquiring Minds. Uh lovely to have you. No, I appreciate it and uh yeah, keep up the good work, Will. I hope you enjoyed that interview. Make sure you subscribe to the Acquiring Minds channel below. We are now publishing twice a week. So tons of new interviews and stories to come. Stories that will help you along your own path to acquiring a business.