The following podcast is a Deer Media production. Hi, and welcome back to the Real Stuff Podcast and to our spin-off series called Don't Hang Up, where I pick up my phone and I call people in my real life, put them on the spot, and urge them, please don't hang up, while I ask them deeply personal questions. Today, we're going to call my brother, Rob, and I want to talk to him a little bit about parenthood. As you maybe know, he is a new dad. His daughter Dylan was born one month before my daughter Coco. So now he's joined me in this parenting world. However, I did have Milo for almost three years before he had his first kid. And I feel like we were in very different places of life for a really long time because I was a parent and he wasn't yet. I really want to talk to him about how he's felt entering into parenthood, how he feels my relationship with him has changed since becoming a dad. And I also just want to ask him some questions about being a dad and finding community and how it's all going for him. Let's give him a call. I know he's taking his second round of paternity leave right now and so he's home with his baby and I think she just went down for a nap. So, let's call him. >> Hello. >> Hey, bro. It's me. >> Hello. I wanted to call you to chat a little bit about fatherhood and you're live on the podcast. >> Fatherhood, a loaded topic. >> A loaded topic. But before we get into you being a father, I have been thinking recently that ever since you had a baby, I feel like we got closer. What do you think? >> I'd have to agree with that. I mean, not that we were not close beforehand, but I just feel like when you go through something like that, especially because you and Coco around the same time and you're kind of in the trenches of new parenthood together, and you add on the fact that you have all this knowledge from Milo, I just feel like there was first of all just like the more logistical andformational side of things where like we just wanted to be constantly talking to you and then I think that just by extension led to us being more closely in touch and just generally getting getting even closer than we were before. >> Yeah, I feel like there was a period probably the first two months when Koko and Dylan were born that we were on the phone with each other pretty much every night, >> I would say. So, FaceTimes like around bath time, random questions here and there, you and Hannah talking about breastfeeding and whatnot. I just feel like it was pretty much non-stop. >> Yeah. And I felt like you guys were finally I mean it was such a relief for us to have someone else in the family that had a baby just because you know how it is. There's just so much like I don't know if it's hype or it's not pressure, but there's just so much daily conversation in the family text chats around the kids and the babies and grandparents coming to see them and it just takes a little bit of I guess pressure off of one family when like another family within the family starts to add kids. >> Yeah. You you get another uh another person spamming the family chat with baby photos and videos all day. When it was just Milo, he was the one both for our family and for Michael's family, he was the one grandchild. There was inherently just a lot of attention on him, a lot of focus on him and by extension you guys. And I could see that being I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of positives to that as well, but I could see that being a little overwhelming or overbearing at times. So, I'm sure it's nice to uh have there be more of a load forming now >> and nice to have cousins obviously for the kids. I feel like we talked about this a little bit in the episode with you and Ally on the podcast, but was there any element of it being strange for you to have a younger sibling that was like moving at a faster pace in life? >> I wouldn't say strange necessarily. It's kind of something that you can't really help but acknowledge in the sense that you're a couple years younger and you got married first and you had a kid first. It's not necessarily a negative thing, but it's just it's a thing, I guess. And I could see that being a source of insecurity or or negativity for someone else in a different situation. It honestly it never bothered me. I mean, maybe in the in the very very slightest slightest way, there's some kind of like subconscious insecurity or something, but nothing major and nothing that ever really manifested in any way. 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You know, someone wrote to me recently saying their husband's brother had a baby right around the same time as them. And so they have these cousins that are like twin cousins that are very close in age. Now those are the only two grandkids in the family. And so they're constantly sharing in the chat what one kid did. And this one is starting to get teeth and this one's starting to crawl. and she was saying that she feels like between her and her husband's brother's wife, there's like this weird competition going on of sharing what milestones the kids are reaching. And obviously, they're not necessarily sharing it to be competing with the other baby, but like the other baby's the exact same age, and it's coming across as, "Oh, look how advanced my kid is." And I mean, I'm speaking for myself. I don't feel literally any of that. I mean, maybe it's a little easier for me because I'm on the side of having the younger baby. So, your daughter Dylan is starting to walk. Like, she's going to walk any day and Koko's not close to walking. And it's easy for me to justify, oh, she's a month younger. She'll get there. But if Koko was walking like a week before Dylan, do you feel like you would feel any of that? I've been thinking about this and I think it's just it's something that you cannot really avoid when you have a kid in general, you know, like especially it's not just you like I have co-workers who have had babies in in the past six to 12 months and I have a lot of other friends and I'm in a group chat with my my high school friends, a subset of my high school friends who are dads and you know people share things and I feel like it's always kind of in the back of your mind. I mean I guess it depends on what type of person you are, right? Maybe some people genuinely just like want to show off and they want other people to see how advanced their kid is or how talented their kid is and they they kind of like are treating it competitively. Whereas other people like they're just proud of their kid and they're happy and they're excited to be going through this this journey of parenthood and they want to share it with people around them and they're not doing it to be competitive or anything. But I feel like sometimes it just might kind of inadvertently come across that way. Or even if it doesn't, in the back of your mind or in the back of the receiving person's mind, there's kind of that like that subconscious thing like is my baby behind? Is my baby ahead? You know, I just feel like in general, it's a thought that you can't really fully avoid. That being said, I mean, if anything, I do feel like Dylan, you know, she's walking or starting to walk on the earlier side and just generally like was crawling earlier and has hit a few other milestones a little bit on the earlier side. You know, not not to brag or anything, she's a genius and is extremely advanced and is probably going to be, you know, writing novels shortly. But that aside, I can't Yeah, I can't help but feel sometimes like I might be making somebody feel slightly bad or something in sharing that. But I just trust that especially you and other friends and even colleagues who I'm close with, um I just trust that they kind of know that it's not a big deal. And I'm sure there are like for example with Coco, there are other things that she was even doing before Dylan. Like I feel like she was clapping and she's now she's waving and saying hi to people. like Dylan's not really doing that. Dylan's starting to clap but not really waving. So, it's kind of a mixed bag. And I'd almost prefer it be that way because if it was just like, well, like you said, Coco's a little bit younger, so it's not really apples to apples, but like let's just pretend they were the same exact age. If it was like, oh, Dylan's just like way ahead and doing everything first. then I probably just would even if you didn't care at all, I would probably just feel a little bit like weird or bad about it and maybe not want to share as much because I wouldn't want to make you feel any certain way. >> Yeah. But like I said, because it's a bit of a mixed bag and because Scoo's a little younger and because you're my sister and I just know that you know that Coco and you know any any other babies that may come in the future, regardless of how early they take their first steps or clap or wave or say their first word, like they're all going to land in the same place. And you know that and I know that and most uh most people know that. So I guess in conclusion for this this little rant, I would say it's probably something that's on people's minds, but most >> logical, rational people like dismiss and don't really care that much about. >> Yeah, I would agree with that. And it's you're right, it's not just I mean obviously in the case of the person who wrote to me, it was family related and the kids were cousins, but this even happens in daily life. Like if you take your kid to a music class or if you have a playd date with someone, it's kind of impossible to not look at what other kids are doing and then stack your kid up against them. And >> yeah, totally. >> I think that is sometimes made worse by outside commentary. Like for example, and I'm not throwing mom and dad under the bus here, but I feel like sometimes mom and dad like it's all they know right now are these two little girls who are pretty much the exact same age as far as babies go. And it's easy for them to see something that Koko's doing and immediately think of something they saw Dylan doing and then say it. But I genuinely feel no sense of that. And the only thing I feel bad about is sometimes in the family chat when you guys will send a video of Dylan. I feel like I don't always open the chat and look at stuff until I have something to say. So, so then I'll open the chat to like send my video and I'll sort of like send it on top of yours without even responding to you and then I'm like, "Oh, oh I got to go comment on Dylan because I can't just be like shoving my kid in everyone's face." >> Yeah. No, that's just the nature of what happens when there's multiple kids and there's they're in this stage of life where they're they're doing new things like every day and it's fun and exciting. The other thing I was going to say is even if there there is some degree of like comparison or competition, it's kind of like in a fun way, I guess you could say, because you see, let's broaden beyond Coco and Dylan, just like in general other babies, right? Like at a similar age, you see them doing things that maybe your baby's not doing yet. And at least in my opinion, it's like, oh, that's so cool. That's so fun. That's so cute. Like, I can't wait. Like, that means she must be getting ready to do that at some point soon. I can't wait till she's doing that also. Right? >> So, while you might acknowledge that, you know, here's a skill or a developmental milestone that another baby of similar age has reached first, it's not really like, oh my god, I lost the race. It's like, oh, you know, here here's something else that is probably around the corner. One other topic that I wanted to talk to you about is I don't even know how to describe you to people who don't know you, but just in terms of being a social being, you are one of the most social, like have the most friends of anyone I know, your group of friends from high school and college is like 30 people that are all best friends with each other and a lot of them are parents now, too. And you were you were actually one of the later ones to become a parent. So you you had a very different experience from me or Michael where we were like the first of people we knew. But I feel like watching you transition into fatherhood, at least the mental side of things as far as going from not being a dad to your life changing, you strike me as a person who had a very positive experience going from zero to one. and it came easily and naturally to you and you didn't seem to go through this identity loss and disruption the way a lot of moms do or the way a lot of dads do when they often don't have a community of dads around them. So, I want to hear a little bit about what you did if anything or like what do you think contributed to your entry into fatherhood being so positive? >> Yeah, it's a it's a good point. First of all, I I was probably I'm probably right in the middle in terms of my group of friends. Maybe like my if I look at my my college friends, some of them had kids on the earlier side and maybe I'm more toward the the uh the back of that group. In terms of my my high school group of friends, I'm probably right smack in the middle. So I think first of all not being like super early and alone or not being like you know the very last one and there's a ton of pressure that helps. Overall though I wouldn't say that there's anything like I I can give you a little bit of a analysis because I've definitely thought about this in terms of what's what's contributed to the transition being smooth except I'm not really sure there's much of a formula or something you can do. Um, I think it's kind of just more the the nature of of your life and any uh choices you made kind of leading up to to fatherhood that that may kind of set you up to have more of a smoother rough transition. So, personally, I think that in addition to having you and having friends who I've kind of seen go through this and over the past several years having a good amount of exposure to kind of like the new parent like uh life and babies that has definitely helped. In addition to that, I think for me the biggest thing that contributed to the transition being on the smoother side is having dogs before having a baby. >> And it's funny because I've seen I've seen both sides, both opinions represented. I've seen people who kind of are saying what I'm saying, which is that having a pet in terms of the the responsibility for caring for another living thing before having a child is is a positive thing. and it kind of is a a stepping stone in a sense. And I've seen other people who say that it's a negative thing and then when you have the kid, you you like don't have time to take care of the dog and it's really stressful. I certainly have not had that experience. So, I'm going to continue to uh to speak to the positive side of it. I'm just acknowledging that I guess not everyone necessarily would have this experience, but I gave up long ago the life of just like I have myself and only myself to worry about and I can do anything I want at any moment. I could go out for breakfast in the city and wind up staying there the entire day and you know stay out late at night and not come home until the next day. like you know maybe when I was 20 22 or 23 or whatever I could have done that but it's been a long time where I've had other responsibilities in terms of having something in my care to take care of and in my opinion that's the biggest transition when you have a baby. It's going from having to mainly worry about yourself to have to kind of like constantly be concerned with the well-being of this this living thing, this child. And I think for some people who maybe haven't experienced that at all before having a kid and who are really used to having total freedom and who um you know just I guess have never really experienced having that always on 100% of the time responsibility to care for something else in those situations. And I and I've seen, you know, some people go through rougher transitions, both dads and mom. And and I think that at least observationally that contributes to it, that kind of like overnight loss of of freedom. And I and I don't mean that just to qualify it. It's not like it's total loss of freedom in a negative way, but it it is just this new life where all of a sudden you need to even if somebody else is caring for your child, like you are responsible for making sure that person is properly caring for your child in that moment. So there's never a moment where you just like can completely not worry about anything. And at least for me, we so we have two dogs and having I mean really the transition from going from zero to one I think is probably more meaningful. But even getting a second dog when Hannah was pregnant and kind of really just being used to needing to always make sure that our dogs are taken care of and if we're going to be out for a while, who's going to walk them and if we need to go away, who's going to be who's going to be taking care of them and we need to be home by this time because we have to feed them, etc. Not as extreme as a child, but a major role in setting me up for a smooth transition. >> All right, that's a good answer. I I wasn't expecting that. I thought you were going to go more in the direction of how you've really like held on to your friendships and your autonomy and how you've made sure to keep carving out time for yourself, which I know is part of it, too. But the pets is definitely worth noting. >> Yeah. I mean, it's a different I think it's a different part of the conversation. like I'm one person so I I really hesitate to kind of like speak to the the overall new parent experience but from my own point of view and from the conversations I've had with others that kind of like overnight major transition that happens where you literally go from even when the wife is nine months pregnant and like about to have a child like it's it's still fully you don't have to really do anything. it's like within the body and there's nothing that that the husband really can do other than just make sure the wife is comfortable, right, for whoever's having the baby. And I just feel like I don't know, it's um there's a there's an overnight transition that happens and in the sense of like how that experience is I feel like it's kind of what happened, what experiences you've had prior to that moment that play more of an impact in terms of how that might emotionally and mentally impact you. But then moving forward, I think it's more of what you were just saying in terms of how do you maintain a sense of normaly and a sense of self in terms of your connections and your relationships and how you're spending your time and all of that. So I think that takes effort over time but is probably less less uh of a factor in terms of that first like week or two where I think some people can get pretty hit pretty hard. >> Yeah, absolutely. and conversation for another day. But I think both of us having had kids in in your case in your early to mid30s and in my case in my late 20s, we did it a little differently than mom and dad did with having kids in their 40s and like kind of segmenting their lives and really separating, you know, first half of the life is about us and then from 40 on it's about the kids. And for us having kids younger, it's a little bit more like everything's woven together and we're not like we did everything about us up to this point and now everything's about the kids, but it's a little more of a blend where I don't know, at least I'm trying to make it a little more of a blend in my life where yeah, >> I'm keeping up a little bit more and you know, mom and dad very much had their own they have a million friends and they were very much took care of themselves in that way. But I do think like mentally and emotionally maybe they were just really wrapped up in being parents at the point at which they became parents in a way that I'm trying to not emulate as much. >> Yeah, that's interesting. Um >> maybe another conversation. >> Yeah, I was going to say I sure we could unpack that further, but my short response is I just that resonates and I think makes sense. I honestly I haven't really thought of it that way in terms of their experience being more segmented kind of like A than B and ours being a little bit more blended so to speak. I think um I think I feel aspects of of both. I do feel segmentation, but I also still feel connected to my friends. And, you know, I'm trying to do more stuff like go out and get get dinners or go to see concert. And, you know, we're we're trying to work in a babysitter into our routine now that she's like a little bit older and I feel like is getting more comfortable with other people and and stuff like that. And so, maybe we can even integrate more of that. I do think just by nature of your personality and like who you were before having kids, I think it makes more sense that you were more, you know, that was then and this is now because I think you're a little bit more of like a party boy and >> a party boy. >> You you were more of like a going out going crazy person. >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I I think you know this, but I stopped drinking completely when when Hannah got pregnant. Like it started as, you know, we were fighting her pregnancy for the first couple months or whatever. And we were doing dry January, quote unquote, and then that that turned into most people knew I'm in solidarity with her while she's not drinking during pregnancy. And then that just turned into I never started drinking again. Mhm. >> And not that I ever like was a crazy crazy drinker or anything, but I feel like maybe just going back to your last comment, I might feel a little bit more of a segmentation between the kind of before and after because of that factor. Like it might have made it feel a little bit more like then versus now. And so yeah, I mean I guess there before I was pregnant and especially more in my earlier 20s, I definitely partied more and stayed out late and did fun stuff. Yeah. >> Not that I don't anymore. >> I think I think that is what I'm trying to get at is that I think my social activity prek kids is pretty similar to postkids. >> Yeah, that's fair. >> All right. Well, anyway, this was a great conversation. I learned a lot about you. Thanks for letting me call you in the middle of the day. I know you're on paternity leave, so I hope you can get some you time in the day, but this was great and love you. >> Yeah, I'm checking the nana. She's been sleeping for 34 minutes. So, if I'm lucky, I'll get another 20 minutes to hang out. >> Yes, Dylan. Stay asleep, please. >> All right. Love you. >> Love you, too. Bye. >> Thank you so much for tuning in to The Real Stuff Podcast. If you're liking the show, please head over to Apple or Spotify and leave us a written review. If you're watching on YouTube, drop a comment down below and join in the conversation. 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