what is up app Nation it is Steve p young founder of app masters.com and you are in the right place every Friday 9:00 a.m. Pacific on YouTube If you're looking to grow your app downloads and more importantly those revenues and today speaking of revenues this Indie has xuer as well he's built an app and he's scaled it all the way to two million ARR within his first year I want to talk about how he's been able to do it so freaking fast what he's learned throughout the entire Journey so without further Ado let's bring in Josh Mor Josh welcome thanks I wish that would pop up every time I joined any kind of like uh video conference you know just right let let them know you're here that's amazing that's amazing thanks for having congrats on the success man thank you I owe it all to you I think I'll take all the credit man you heard it first hey I'm gonna share the the app so if you guys want to check it out it is wave. co and I'm going to pull that up as well wave. Co and then just search for wave or wave AI in the App Store it's a notetaking app it's AI generated Josh maybe we start off with maybe where you came up with this idea and I definitely want to talk about how you've been able to scale it so fast as well yeah so um you know I've I've always wanted to learn to code as they say and I've taken a few shots at it but rolling the tape all the way back I've always been into computers and the internet came up on the business side um started selling stuff over the Internet when I was in high school in the 90s um eventually about a decade later found my way to Uber where I was an early um employee there leading the New York City business um and uh you know throughout all those experiences I kind of viewed engineering as potentially a more fun role when you're building a product uh that's used online you know MH and so I've tried a couple times before to like make an app try something out and chat GPT when it came out about a year and a half ago um was like that bridge that I really needed you know something that I could ask a bunch of questions to they could help me learn about different things and so with that I started building little small apps you know that would do different things and one of them was an it was a voice recorder that would transcribe the audio and then summarize that um and it was a neat little trick you know you go out to lunch with someone and put it on the you know run it for a bit and then show them what to do but the real aha moment was when I gave it to my dad who was going to the doctor and he was a doctor himself uh before he retired um but would go to these appointments and they would be full of sort of technical speak and it goes really fast and would have trouble telling the rest of the family what was talked about so just for fun I said hey I'm working on this thing you know there's plenty of audio recorders for wave meetings I'm sorry for uh Zoom meetings and and meets and teams and all this stuff but what about just out in the world um try this out brings it records the visit and it was really eye opening it's like wow that's really incredible and I found at that time this still may be somewhat the case that a lot of the best AI tools and demos and things are happening in web browsers and desks and in places that don't really unlock them to the whole world and so wave is a very simple app it records audio it transcribes it and summarizes that it also works for phone so you can make a phone call through the app just like a regular phone call it'll record that and summarize that you can import podcasts and YouTube videos um and some other things that I'm working on um and it's had a bit of success in in the App Store um and so I me I'll I'll stop there that was a lot but uh that is that's the origin story did you use AI to completely build this app too is that what I'm hearing um that is what you're hearing yeah that I think it's it's a little confusing because it's an AI app but AI is super part of the origin story I mean I came up on the business side this is my first engineering work um I built it alone uh and um yeah AI was the bridge for that as well so it's sort of AI on both sides wow that's incredible okay I love it and I love the aha moment did you have monetization when your dad was playing around with it too or how well I gave him a I give him a free account sort of as like Reciprocity for you know raising me um you know as many of your listeners and viewers probably know um AI software is a little different than regular software and that the processing is not uh it has it has uh it's not free um it's come down in price but running gbt or a a transcription engine excuse me um is not free so I had monetization from the beginning I also sort of before at this point I didn't really think anyone would want it but part of the project was getting something live in the app store which to me um included having sort of an option for anyone to download it and buy it if they wanted um I I really didn't actually kind of think anyone would buy it I love it so it's sort of just it was it was just for fun and then about a year ago probably like last July or August the feedback started coming in that reminded me of feedback I'd seen at Uber and not to say that this is like that at all the real like magic isn't built by me it's built mostly by open AI but I'm delivering the magic and some of the feedback I'd get in intercom in the app because I do all the support also had the kind of excitement vibe that I remembered at Uber and remember I joined there before anyone had ever heard of it and so I was there for understanding that it was going to be a very big deal and so hearing some of that I think really you know AI large language models the the the the best feature of them in my mind at the moment is summarization and so for a normal who maybe isn't bathing in the AI world every day when they can record a meeting at their desk and get bullets or a good like summary back that does feel like magic the first time because it's like oh I didn't know a computer knew how to do that they could like take the audio and make words and maybe they'll be right or maybe not but to actually synthesize uh summarization is kind of a new thing that computers can do well and so I felt like bringing that to normies was the way to go interesting and you were getting this so you had intercom within the first version of the app and you were getting this type of feedback it wasn't even like they were just like like wow this is impressive Josh like they got you got that on it was there was some of that there was some like sometimes you can tell the intensity of someone's anger when the app works wrong or it doesn't work or it stops working like hate and love are neighbors they're not opposites and so you know I would get things like like I'm so mad you lost my recording and I'd be like oh it's fixed be like oh thank God I love this app it's the best app in the world like okay got it and certainly it's not for everybody and people and and all this stuff but I have gotten a sense that it's a it's a basic and un and unopinionated Tool so it doesn't insist on being embedded in a certain way or done on a computer it's just sort of like hit hit play and just go Um and that seems to work okay talk to me about the early days I'm always curious because I never know I guess the general question high level without getting to specific is like when do you know it's the right time to scale like when do you start spending money on ads you do it right from the jump like what what was your thought process yeah so my background is weird like I think you probably have a lot of instances out in the world where someone is a veteran engineer and they dabble in the like marketing stuff that's probably common is I've sort of done the flip side so I was comfortable with acquisition stuff right away but there's a lot of nuance in the iOS World much of it I learned about from you from like recordings and you know know the old days was like last week kind of but this is really a few months ago um learning about iOS 14.5 and how you can't really track and all the stuff but my thinking was if I could have you know I don't want to go into the red on ads if I can on balance get to a blended acquisition rate um that gets paid back at activation you know so I'm making the money back on average on Day Zero or on month zero I guess then it's worth scaling until that isn't true anymore um and so I started with apple search ads that's sort of bottom of the funnel easiest way just to get someone to see your ad I mean to see your app if they search for anything kind of in your world highly relevant the person is ready to go and then meta after that um which I got some help on and that's a whole new world you know the whole user generated video angle which I think dominates um and the hook and getting really just doing video ads is frankly new for me when I was doing ads that didn't really look that way but um meta has been really kind of amazing uh in that we send it enough signals for it to kind of figure out who my users are and it finds them extremely efficiently that's interesting and Josh did you look at so were you kind of like in the early days did you have this is a common question I get from people all the time did you have a budget in mind how much did you want to spend to make sure that you had enough volume to test your hypothesis of that what' you call it day one day Zero activation payback rate yeah I got the I got the sense from listening to you and some others that yeah like if you couldn't start meta at a big enough volume it wouldn't really have a chance to learn and so I think we were Pro I was probably doing like 10K mrr um before I started doing app that was when it was like okay maybe this would work and then I just I never wanted to have a month where I went deep red like I could afford for it to be break even and it it was in those early months um but I think I've been clear for myself about what the goal is of this like I don't have any VC money and I don't plan to change that I don't really want to have a team I have a couple folks working for the app uh but I think like it's not going to have a large employee base and so you know the the goal is to make money the go so I don't want to burn that all on ads so I'm trying to be you know careful about how how big I go um and try to keep the results um in Focus you know it's uh it's it's it's easy to go crazy on that stuff if that makes sense how did you get it to to that now I get to that how did you get it just arly uh how do I get te yeah I mean on Twitter I started talking about it actually LinkedIn was a channel um where I got kind of way more reactions um and I think I started putting grass up I mean I think that might be how we set this up I I feel like yeah it's you know a sort of a cheap way to get some attention to just sort of put your data out there I don't think there's a person out there who's going to be turned on or like ire to come and do the same thing as me because they see the graph that I have so I think it's pretty low risk and uh it gets some attention and so people were curious I mean I think maybe less about what the app does and more about an old business veteran with no engineering experience making an app like either that's like a a terrible idea and I want to kind of see the blood bath like or maybe it's interesting and so perhaps from those two groups people started to download it but I think like the way is to be good you know I'm a 4.9 star uh about 2,000 ratings like it was important to me from the get-go to be good and to like have it be useful to people and not lose their audio and that's like I still Aspire in that direction like I wanted to work all the time it still has some issues I want it to be as useful as it can to as many folks as possible but I do kind of think like after a certain point just be being good is is you know the answer so I see a yeah no go ahead sorry Josh I didn't mean to interrupt I see a competitor who's like a 4.6 and like maybe and this is just kind of like made up I um I know there's probably like data on this that it doesn't matter but I think it's just reflective of if are people having a good time in that app like are they getting done what they want is it working the way they expect um and the rating reflects that and so I think I think that's part of it I think just sort of being being being high uh quality is uh that really matters I think you know that's sort of like the promise of the internet in a lot of ways I love it good things find their way to the top so I of like sort of if I were to try to replicate Josh's success it would be build an app like an MVP good build a good app put some intercom messaging in there look for the signals right like the excitement the love the hate and then Shing your success product Market fit I I also think I generally this is sort of my first zero to one thing like I've done a lot of one to NS but I haven't done any zero to ones and I think it was a little bit easier than I imagined like I really thought it was I thought I was able to do it I was like this is not going to work um but I think people out there are surprisingly willing to try things spend a few bucks give it a shot um and are tolerant of Perfection and it was just you know the 0o to one was easier than I thought so I think like just getting something out there I had good friends who are like this is not what you're building is not um useful like it's not a credible it's not enough it's like and maybe there's some truth to that longterm um especially as some of these features end up in iOS 18 but I kind of think I'm going to do it better and for the person who needs it and depends on it they're going to be willing to spend a few bucks to get it so it's just finding those like the the internet is very good at helping you find the people out there let's say I need you know I have like about 10,000 subscribers now and like I think if I had like a 100,000 that would be a good day's work like I'd be good to go with that um 100,000 people out of 300 million Americans and eight billion humans is actually like not that crazy um it's a lot but it's not that crazy it's it is doable so that's what gets me going I love it do you think luck plated into this at all because you said 0o to one was so easy um you know I spent some time as a VC um and I've heard a lot of ideas and I think many ideas are very bad and I still hear plenty of bad ideas and I guess maybe like the bar for me to want to go do something was high but I put out some ideas too like I had bad ideas too this wasn't really the first thing there's a couple so um you know and certainly luck like I'm high-profile because of other stuff and so I think I think that's probably helpful too but again like that was certainly that made it easier and luck is always part of success I think but it's um I think it really could be anybody yeah honestly I was just curious what you would say I didn't think it was luck j a little bit of luck of course it's a little bit of luck everything is a little bit of luck luck Uber thing was luck that I was born when I was at this time in this moment and true it's all luck man a lot of it is luck I want to say hi Rose here good to see you NX hi dear Steve how are you bro good to see you bro crypto crunch Luise Patrick is here Sebastian all right good emry hey Steve so crowded today yeah it's good uh oh I want to know what that means vlay says hey Steve I'm an application whose business model is subscription based now I'm trying to hard pay wall should the subscription have a trial period when yes and when not what do you think Josh you have a tral you have a tri right or no I don't I have 30 minutes free per month um but you know there have been so many things I've learned from you and others that have that have not been intuitive and I'll tell you some of them one is like make sure everyone sees the pay wall like shove it in their face right be and and have an annual plan those are two things that I find very uncomfortable but that have yielded amazing success so you know it's kind of crazy yeah you're seen the pay wall definitely let me track you let me push notifications okay so yeah everyone is seeing this until they pay you can exit and still use the app up to 30 minutes a month but everyone's seeing this oh you don't have to do that no I wondering you had a trial that's all I was picking out oh I know yeah now little UI bug excellent so phone call recording you're going through all of it but yeah there definitely been things a trial is pro I think that that works um Marcus Burke who does some worked with me on user acquisition taught me that trials are great one downside is that and I might get this wrong I know he was a guest of yours before and probably said this but the signals you get from a trial are definitionally lower value than a subscription than someone who actually buys okay so by forcing the subscription to happen or not right up front we're potentially giving meta better signal interesting um and so sort of his one of his thoughts about it um we put annual in the middle it was on the right until like yesterday and we did a test with the middle and it's so much better these things make no sense but you know it is what it is um I mean it does make sense but it's like I work so hard on making the app work and it turns out just like flipping the two prices is like maybe that's actually all I need to do it's funny like some we we middle always works and then like honestly if you do rows the the first option is the one that most people pick anyways too oh interesting it's really crazy yeah and then one tip I'll give you too is one of clients they tested columns versus rows and look everything is different but they noticed the columns were uh rows worked a little bit better than so three rows versus where the annual probably the first one versus three col interesting might be worth you also told me of one of like trial could be like a toggle I've started seeing that where pick do you want a trial like that's kind of interesting because I'd be like a no trial guy i' be like no I'm good let's just go even though it's like a free day I don't know everyone's psychology is a little bit different yeah I like it man that's awesome congrats so thank you I but clay I would say most of the time I like to do have a have a trial we have seen that work better with in a bunch of AI apps that we've work with the trial has worked so most of the time I try to do have a trial especially if you have a hard pay will you might want to consider this Josh obious ly gives away 30 minutes free every month and Josh I like every day you said or month did you say every day 30 minutes every day or 30 days uh 30 minutes a upth sorry I love it see like don't give away too much give them a little bit of taste and then they're gonna have to pay like you have you have a business to run Yeah well yeah and my my intuition was that you try it once and you're like oh my God I got to buy it and then I looked at data and so many people buy it before they try it like they see the ad they're like I'm in damn nice you know yeah and so that's when I started showing the pay wall right away like even though you don't necessarily have to use it and it has a big X in the corner but some people just see it and they buy it right away I love it I love it okay cool and then we got some questions for you said how did you manage to describe more than one hour audios yeah so I think and then the followup I could see in the chat was about the open AI API I don't use the open AI API I do use whisper but I um host it myself and so 's No Limit you know this is a very good example of a place where I try to innovate right away like I started on the open AI one I started dividing the files and all this shenanigan and I realized that actually running open AI on my own rented Hardware would be cheaper and better I could do speaker isation which I'm about to launch which is like Steve Josh Steve you know what I mean um which the open AI API does not do natively um and also I don't know a limit because I realized people were going to be using this for long form stuff and so you can record as many hours as you want in one shot I personally wouldn't if there any people listening if you have like a four hour thing you have to record I would do it in one hour chunks just to get more data and keep it a little bit cleaner but you you can record as long as you want and so that's how I got it around all right like it Allie's here from London good to see you what's up and then digiad said would you mind sharing now Josh feel sure all good all good all the the so this one was not intuitive um Sam Alman Uncle Sam has done me a solid because every time I start to want to reduce my cost of open AI usage he cuts price by like half so I was using GPT 4 Turbo or maybe just GPT 4 and it was some amount and then I was like looking at maybe using llama the open source language model and then like right as I was ready to go he dropped a big cut and then 40 had another cut and now there these like mini models that are essentially free so the open AI cost has only ended up being you know two three five% of Revenue the reason I'm squishy on the number is because annual payments should be kind of AC crude see I'm like new ad apps but I'm an expert in you know like accounting I guess but uh you should take the annuals and kind of spread it out over the year and see what the cost is for a year so because of the high ratio of annuals that I have I don't have a perfect answer for this yet but it's it's less than you think um because it just Sam Alman just keeps making it you know less and less and I suspect that language models will Converge on free over some time Horizon that's certainly where it's going now you got a lot of questions coming in all right yeah rock and roll this is this person digiad is he loves you Josh what kind of events and I already know this but like well I'm guessing based off what you already said what kind of events of data do you send to Facebook ads for it to find the relevant users sure so I put the Facebook SDK in my app I have had MMP problem I haven't been able to get an MMP in the mix to do better than just the Facebook SDK and since I'm only doing ads on meta that's what I use and they just send the subscription you know event like this person bought and it's all kind of automatic it just sort of sits in the app and does its thing so it's uh it's been really it's been really amazing I mean it's just sort of like now I have someone who's running that part for me so I I you know and I believe he was a guest recently so you should listen to that episode but um yeah that's that's how I do it that's awesome and then it's just to get a little technical it's one event and then the values are sent so like you know whether they sign up for a yearly or a monthly or a weekly it's one of event that's being sent to meta right like it's a subscription event or do you have up with no it's just a subscription event I'm actually hitting the other window now to just a peek at the code because I don't remember because my brain doesn't work I mean we're basically we're sending a subscribe event I don't think and then and then um so I use adopti uh and I send some stuff through them yeah I've seen I send some stuff there I'm not sure I don't think we're send sending the dollar value of the purchase but I'm not sure okay we really should well I just want to know from a technical standpoint that it's just one event whether whatever they buy it doesn't subscription y yes yes that's right cool I love it good work there all right let's get into soon I got my friend question Seb says great great app Josh how did you balance getting free users and having them and having to pay for AI for them did you have a lot of iterations to find the right tier baked down that 30 minute mark um no I mean the 30 minute was a sort of a guess I think I might have at one point had 60 Minutes i' be perfectly honest I don't I don't remember how I got to 30 um but I do monitor how much usage every day is like new member usage versus a subscriber um subscribers are the vast majority of it if it got out of hand I might do something about that but it but it really isn't I mean I think the the value of what you record is rather immediate it and then it decreases in value quite rapidly like what I mean is it's a meeting you just had you need this you know you want the summary of that then in six months it might not be valuable anymore so the usage kind of is repetitive if that makes sense um and uh you know the open AI bills were they were much more as a percentage of Revenue in the beginning but they've gone down quite a bit um whereas now the advertising is Far and Away the largest piece that's awesome congrats on that and then the I'm assuming maybe you can I can expand on this with Mel it would be like which tool SDK did you use to me measure meta ads Roi that's just the meta SDK that's all you have in there you don't have the MMP or anything like that yeah I've tried to make mmps work and I'm bought into the idea if people are coming from different sources and all this but for whatever reason the Facebook you know judging simply by running a campaign on meta that optimizes to an event from the Facebook SDK versus an MMP um the Facebook SDK does much better and I think because I'm not rolling in fancy to the MMP offices I'm not getting much attention from them so I'm just like okay you know I would like to give you money if you do not want my money that is okay no I love it I love that you just have that we're we're trting to do that with our app too and I'm storry to C around on this Josh I like this is very timely too because uh part of me has always been like cheap you know like let me hack everything let let's not for let's like let's not spend money let's just see and then now I'm like okay we're gonna have to spend let's spend to make so how long I guess when you started Facebook what did you have I love the fact and I want to ask about why you're just one man but like did Marcus just take care of all the the ad creatives were you creating them yourself like talk to me about that like how you got started with the Facebook stuff yeah um I have worked with a couple of different agencies who make the ads um I've learned in the you know in the last few months about things like the the hook in the first few seconds to try to get someone to stop scrolling you know and just sort of all these kind of newish ideas the way the ads are shaped like my intuition on ads is like kind of way off now because just the way the world is now so I I have some folks who are good at it doing it um you know it's like the ad is what you'd imagine it's like my boss is really impressed because now I'm taking these awesome you know things like that um and and that's you know that I sort of feel like yeah you know the the demo has tended to be a little bit older like we're doing a lot in the 30 to 50 range um which makes sense those are people willing to pay for apps and this is useful for them and maybe they're not as I said like bathing in all the AI stuff online so they don't know and you know that this is like a useful tool for them uh not that someone who is well versed in AI would not find it useful I think they would do but that tends to be who who finds it um I forgot what the question was no and then just the so you hired the agencies it was like how'd you get started in the ads they were they running the ads or were they just creating the ads for you and then you were running them or were they just taking care of the yeah um they did production I trafficked in the beginning uh Marcus Burke um who I referred to earlier he's very busy with me you cannot hire him everybody but you should try anyway I another email saying can you intro me I'm like dude just reach out to him yeah that's what I did I literally heard him on a podcast I heard him on sub club and I was like I love this guy this guy's this guy's speaking my language um and so I pinged him and I was like yo we should do some stuff I think you'd have a good time let's go and so we did and um yeah so he does the trafficking to be honest I've only done it a couple times but our settings are rather basic like we believe in the model like the the AI meta ad model where they are able to find your people you're kind of renting that ability so it's not the most sound long-term strategy I'd rather have a website that search ranks very well I'd rather have people you know referring and talking about it and I'm building all of that stuff too but I mean The Meta ad engine is the best version of that that Humanity has ever known and it's just honestly like kind of amazing to me every day when I look at yeah would you mind if I show this your some of your ads I'm on your thing I'm on your yeah okay I know everybody can do it too but I was like all right let's of course nothing everything someone wants to know they can figure it out I put enough info out there they can get there thanks you know what I really love oh here I'll play this real quick I don't know if you guys can hear it we can hear it but it's it's great he's like he's like download this app all I have to do is set it up before every single meeting and wave AI will then transcribe and summarize all the conversations for me so he thinks I'm doing all the grunt work all I'm doing is sending the summaries the wave generated for me check it out wave on the App Store and 3X productivity so that's definitely one angle um I think I I you know in that video he's in a zoom call on his computer with the sound on and he leaves the phone on his desk and that is not that's a cool way to use it that wasn't totally the intention but it is a good illustration of kind of what it does I think it's more exciting to do it to have um kind of real world recordings but people do that as well uh but these ads tend to work and then those are some old ones at the bottom I love it congrats man this is cool thanks for being so open that's what I was going to say Josh like that's what I learned from you you're like how'd you get to 10K you're like I just kept sharing my success like as I hit a certain Benchmark you kept sharing it and then when I saw yourself on link when I saw the post on LinkedIn I was like I gotta reach out to them and I was like wait I did talk to him a while ago it all comes from circle after a while yeah build there are people who do this like a hundred times better than me I I what I mean is my sharing of the grass is like build in public here's my graphs like people are much more subtle and new about it and much more entertaining and they're sharing lessons and I would love to do that I found that I'm not great at it it's not that interesting I'm kind of busy I'm like one guy doing this um and so I have not gone that route but I sort of tried a little bit in the beginning and it it reduced um eventually to like showing pretty graphs and that tends to get people's attention yeah just to like get the Sparks going a little bit and frankly I have no re I I have very few people to like highfive the successes with because the team is really just me and a couple of me couple of guys come on let's go boom all right we did the nerdiest thing possible my wife's gonna oh I think we're gonna top that I think we'll top that don't you yeah oh yeah I've seen these shows before I know where they go all right nit says hey Josh do you still run ASA Apple search ads after sard meta yeah we have a little um I think we've turned them down a little bit but I um so uh a little bit but not very much people I think are bidding on wave as a name that's always fun to see I always click on those ads run up your bill for you there buddy but um yeah a little less now that's hilarious and then this is a great question from jananas what was the biggest breakthrough in terms of acquisition was it just a single cro test a winning ad concept campaign structure app experiment that increased retention by a few multiples yo so I um I was watching an episode of this show and you had um a woman was on yeah man I mean if they're listening they're already like into it but there was a woman on who I thought was so good and I think she was like making ads for games and she and she drove home that like if you get a creative that works like it's an it can be an outlier difference um I've not yet had that experience what what I focus and what has moved the needle mostly negatively is like pay wall issues it you know we had we had a build that the pay wall didn't fire at the right time or it didn't fire at all um or like instead of 80% of people seeing it only 40% saw it you know and those things depress Revenue materially so it's been more what's really moved the needle is just making sure the the app is tight that people are seeing what they're supposed to see we put an onboarding in um relatively recently like a few slides in the app the first time you open it the sort of give you a sense of what it is we've experimented with an aha moment type thing where you would like a guided test of wave like you pick the audio sample and you put it in and it does it and I pulled that out I think it was confusing some people one like Nuance that I think I don't know if it's normal but it causes some trouble is that I force making a a user account and the reason for that is I want your email address but the real reason for that is I want to make sure all your recordings and data is secure and it's saved server side and then if you go to wave on the web which we have now or in Android or on another device like your iPad all your recording data is there and I didn't want to tie those accounts to the Apple system so the first time you open you know you're creating an account either with Google or Apple um You didn't say any audio so couldn't it couldn't record anything oh I can't hear you at all I think you're muted bro my man Steve you're muted my fault I'm not very professional my first time recording are you kidding that the like mute symbol was so fancy I didn't even I knew because it was like part of the graphic I I wanted to see when you asked for it I don't think I ever signed up I don't know if I got the you must have if you I don't know if you're on a phone yeah I think you might have but if you log because remember we've spoken once in the past so you might have already this is the yeah these are the screens you to the first time are you a de are you a designer too like how did you come up I have a design firm that's that's doing this for me got it late checkout name call they're they're really they're really terrific late checkout is that Greg's late checkout yep okay and he okay so that's great I'm really glad that the pay wall showed instantly there yeah I mean you had already opened the app on another account but that you know the difference between that showing right away and that showing five seconds later is a huge difference it's a huge difference and so you know getting that right getting the introductory processes running correctly and remember I've never built an app before this is my first one there's all sorts of nonsense that I do that doesn't make any sense that any like real engineer would be like this is disgusting but I've but I've up leveled over the last year and so now it's like kind of reasonable all right people are asking some intimate questions you get intimate do I have an intimate sound effect I don't maybe this will work good enough yeah okay all right we're time to get into it all right V says what is your CAC um I would love it to be like 30 bucks or maybe less and sometimes a little more and that's okay but you know as little as possible but yeah I mean I think it I think I buy at 30 all day yeah yeah of course I mean you're making easy more money than that and then how much do you toor says how much do you spend on ads daily uh we did 100K in July you know we're a very we're a very workday heavy app um this is a funny story so I mean we're obviously dead on Saturday Sunday like literally minus 90% of recording volume whereas on a given day like yesterday we did 200,000 minutes um and so you know on a Saturday we'll do like 20,000 or 10,000 like really very very little but on the day that the all the all the windows machines all over the world broke like two Fridays ago wave was also very low like people didn't go to work that day I can kind of see in our app data when people are uh using the app and not it almost feels like a B2B play where it's like you know you're adding functionality obviously people are more willing to pay you can charge a higher price sure it's a work thing for sure for most people yeah yeah I like it all right and then vivex says love your insights on this does charging more in developed countries and other countries developing underdeveloped increase overall revenues is it primarily us for now for it is primarily us um I definitely have like on my list of things I want to do is lowering the rates in certain places where it doesn't it wouldn't feel appropriate if you saw it um I think Philippines we were talking about doing a cut there I think in Turkey prices already are low um from a change I all of a sudden very early on so many turkey downloads like hundreds like early on when I had no downloads like turkey became my number one country I don't know what happened someone like wrote about it or something but now it's mostly Us and other English speaking places though it really does work quite well in any language um it'll grab your devices language and assume that any audio recording is done in that language um and then do the transcriptions and summaries in that language as well early on there was a lot of German and Spanish and French and Portuguese and all this stuff that is now simar to bit it's just mostly a lot of English all right I love it okay Le Andre now ask of these questions love from Turkey love turkey what was your Google Play web Revenue yeah go for it so we came out on Google play last week um and so I have 14 subscribers there and in the App Store I have about 10,000 and on the web I have implemented stripe but I haven't told anyone about it so the only revenue is my test transactions there's actually a bunch of features that are like built and ready to go but they're not quite ready to go that I just start like telling users about on the sport Channel like for example people are like it would be great if I can access my data on the and I'm like well you can go to app. w.co and log in and see all your things but it's like not pretty and it's not done but you go you could go and do that but it like basically works so there's a bunch of things like that that I'm pushing out slowly the Android app took forever to get live not a code the it's the same it's it's uh react native so the code is the same but I got rejected from the Google App Store 40 times in a row before I was accepted for like little stupid things not even good things more like that button doesn't work you idiot I'm like oh yeah my bad and then that that happened like literally 40 times so that sucked but now I'm live and it kind of works got a few cost questions and now you've been able to do yeah let's do it could you expand more on hosting your own AI was it difficult any learnings we could benefit from yeah I mean so whisper the open AI transcription model is open source which means you can download it you can like download the model and it's been packaged up in some open source things like whisper X and faster whisper which are like mods essentially of whisper and then you can launch that there's a lot of like API Services uh runp pod who I use are fantastic they're more technical but I wanted to get the cost as as low as possible if I recall correctly the open AI hosted whisper API is something like 36 Cents an hour um and I think they they they call it six cents a minute I'm sorry they call it 610 of a cent a minute or something like this but it's 36 Cents an hour I can do it for like a quarter of that myself and you're like a little bit on your own if things go sideways but a lot of this ex a lot of what I'm doing here is like a project to learn how to do all this stuff and so messing with Dockers and like I had heard about those things I didn't really know what they were but chat gbt can really do every it can it can teach you anything particularly technical things yeah so I was like how technical questions without an engineering background I was like what is Docker H how does Docker work and I'm like okay cool here's a bunch of docks from this runp pod thing how does this work like if you're clever about what you're asking you can learn anything particularly technical things um it's really just incredible things things that by the way you could have learned with just Google but it would have been harder had to find the right website and learn like the information has been there it's just packaged in such a better way as a chat bot I don't know if you covered this because I'm not technical okay but Josh could you share how do you manage token usage in your app I guess it's one of biggest P so this is so I was so that question and others led me to sort of like into it what a server is I was like I need a computer that can run some of these more private things like the open EG call so I use Google functions I use uh Firebase functions for all the backend stuff really all the app does is it records the audio and then uploads the audio once the audio is off your device everything else happens on device I'm sorry everything else happens in the in the cloud so transcription summarization saving it any change anything you do if you make it a favorite or put in a folder all that stuff is recorded on Firebase on my database and this is sort of like an organic learning because what would happen it wasn't about what you just asked whoever asked that uh about the keys like the secrets you know it was more about You' record the audio and send it up for a thing and it would take time for it to come back and if you like changed apps or if you turned off your phone it would just lose the recording so I sort of figured out early on that I need to get that audio off the phone and do all the processing that isn't going to be instant it's going to take a a a few minutes of like waiting for the Sur to reply I learned about web Hooks and sort of asynchronous things like that it has been my goal and I've been like adjacent to this I have a degree in math like I'm not a random like I I'm an analytical guy anyway so this is a bridge for me I don't mean to imply that this is for everybody but for me I was close to it already and so AI was able to get me the rest of the way there but I learned about servers and how they work and Cloud functions and and serverless and all this stuff it's like I I related it to if you've ever been to if you ever been into a show like you've watched like a really good show like Breaking Bad or madman any of these great shows and you have to wait because the like season ends and you're waiting for the next season to start like how is it going to resolve if you just come in right now to become an engineer there's all these things have already been built like it's amazing like making websites on nextjs I was like how can I like from the website like have a have something done that like makes an action happen on the server and I like look around like they just invented something called server actions it's like terrific like I'm coming in so late to a lot of this stuff and it's all fully baked I don't know if that made any sense this isn't live right I love it no I love this I love this Josh honestly it's just like to see you talk about this because the website's beautiful as well man like it really is and you're like heyi yeah yeah and I will actually the website is actually the one piece of customer facing code that I didn't make I I I I um I hired a guy on upwork to implement the design because it has this cool scrolly thing that I just couldn't figure out someone asked a question about token usage yep I don't think that's next but I just want to jump to that so how do I minimize token usage from Russ um one of my instincts on this is that the the thing I want to do is set is set No Limits I want to use the best apis for the best summary the best transcription I don't want to hold back at all use all the tokens you want and I think it actually just it makes the product better like here's some like free advice for anyone out there I see this thing all the time in AI startups that the free version is using like gbt 3.5 and the pro version is using gbt 40 so you're using the better AI models for the people who pay that is in some ways maybe even the opposite of what you should be doing but it's certainly half wrong like use the best models give the best version of the thing in the demo like it doesn't make any sense in my view to make the demo less good you should make the demo more good there's so many things I do to like optimize for the new user for when they they first download and they push the record button and they record hello what does this thing do stop right so they've recorded three seconds when the average recording is 15 minutes they've recorded three seconds I want to make sure a transcription and summary come up immediately right so I run like excess servers to just make sure there's no waiting no cold starts no cues like you're going right away delivering that top-notch experience so with token usage I have been I'm trying to be as generous as I can for people who don't know what that means when you run a command in AI you're kind of the length of the response and the length of the input is measured and you're build based on that that's how that's what that's what Russ is asking there how do I minimize that love it and the Andro I'll answer this for joshh yes he does provide multilanguage conversation support yeah yep all right let's see and I'm gonna answer all these questions Josh has a hard stop and so I'll get to the app audits by myself without Josh unless you want to stay around it's up to you I'll jump but I have to jump I have a few extra I got a few extra minutes I got a few extra okay but I I want to make sure you know the the audience gets the the questions answered so what was your budget for the first marketing yeah campaign yeah so I think above a minimum threshold below which you're not going to learn anything like so as long as it's above a certain amount the budget is kind of infinity as long as it's able to meet its Roi goals and so like practically speaking I think I started with $300 a day you know I had I had the feeling that that would probably be enough to get enough installs to start to see something but it's really like I'm managing spend I'll spend double or I'll spend half what I spend right now based on what the results look like that's really the key for me okay I love it I hope that answers are you looking at on a daily basis too because you see the download the activation because you have no trial makes math a little bit easier most people will buy during the onboarding and so that's right kind of so in yep so um in adapt who I use to manage the sales um they and this is that going to answer Sedar they give me LTV they have a really good data and analytics package on adapt and so one of the things that there's one graph where by day or by week it'll tell you when people subscribe if they subscribe so by by zerod day 60% or 250 subscriptions then three day 7day you know 30-day whatever because people will all install the app on day Zero and then they might convert on a bunch of different days so we look at that you know if you spend $100 on Monday you want to it's not just how many sales you make on Monday nor is it how many sales you make that week it's how many sales Monday's group makes in that week right that makes sense like you want to follow the cohort so we look at the cohorts we've been able to generalize certain things like if we see X installs or subscriptions really subscriptions on Day Zero we can assume a trickling of subscriptions from group over the next few days and you can model getting Roi like basically we want payback of more than one on that first sale on like on like a you know a blended basis have you tried other channels or are you just using Facebook Tik Tock was sort of my very first experiments um I stopped doing that I found their dashboard a little bit difficult to navigate you know I think if meta felt like it tapping out I would start exploring aggressively some other things um in terms of like scale but meta touches really everybody who uses a phone between all their apps and so I think there's enough there for now I definitely want to try to do other well for Android I need to do Google ads at some point I haven't started that yet um and they're like little one-offs like inclusions in newsletters that might be a hit kind of less scalable lower dollar but just like good opportunities like I sort of think opportunistically about that but I personally what I what I love doing of all this stuff the most is the engineering work so I'm trying to keep everything else off my plate and really just focus on that yep got it I love it would you still do the same thing like if you had to do another zero to one would you wait till the 10,000 Mr would you knowing what you already know now would you start with Facebook ads right away um I think like it sort of depends I I so what I was thinking about it about this like I have the money to lose but that's a dangerous place to be in so I wanted the project to be self-sufficient like that was kind of the idea net of like a credit card that will give me a 30-day rotating balance you know what I mean like I put the money on a card I get the money from Apple they're due and I get the money at around the same time in a month right so I was willing to use that float but I didn't want to go terribly in the red I think I seated the business with some amount like I don't know some amount but then I really wanted it to be at at at worst break even just as a like um you know just as like a rule because it could easily get carried away so I think that's a that's a reasonable rule like it gets dangerous when you try to make your acquisition equal LTV you know like well LTV equals $100 so I can acquire users for $100 and it'll pay back in the first year like that's one way to do it I guess but as an indie it feels dangerous and it wasn't what I didn't want to be like that well I like what you said like I have money to lose but that's a dangerous proposition too because yeah yeah right like Market yeah the market will speak I mean we didn't talk much about this but even at Uber like we were pretty particularly in the early like before we were worth a billion dollars like money was kept very tight like you know what I mean hiring was a big deal spending money was a big deal like you gotta keep it tight I think one of the problems in Venture back startups that's not really what we're talking about here but there's a lot of money slashing around and companies get undisciplined because of that you know it's because not a big deal to spend 100 Grand and it's a huge deal to spend 100 Grand if you have 20 million in the bank or nothing in the bank it's still 100 Grand it's a lot of money so you really need to make sure that the economics make sense before you turn up the heat because the fact is like if your app works then the economics on the ad should also work a little bit and if it doesn't there's a signal there yep love it that's love it said all right so Dar said he has to he has to twice okay what is the best ratio for new user to paid acquisition paid conversion so we convert at 10% I suspect that that's on the high end but I have no idea yeah it's pretty high it's it's great I say five to 10 is on average and then above 10 is great thanks yeah right Josh people are asking it's Dad jokes NX it feels funny if you call it Daddy jokes but we'll get into the dad jokes and the app a it and then we'll let Josh go as well all right let's get to it okay me first yeah sure let's see first why did the orchestra get struck by lightning why because it because it had a conductor oh shoot it was too low I like it all right uh I got see if I can try to beat that all right hey Josh my wife gets mad over my bread puns my wife get mads gets mad at me over my bread puns why is she sourd though oh all right so put J if you what do you hold on one more I got one more for you I got one more for you what do you call what do you call a fake dad what a fuxa all right that's two so killing me killing me here if you thought Josh's joke was better put Jay and then put s if you thought my joke was better too we'll play for bragar right or coffee drink we'll figure it oh I didn't know this is gonna be I didn't know we were doing that all right hey yeah fun give me those JS give me those JS pass that J let's go all right what else we got this app so you got time for this or you want to do you need to go because I want to make sure we ask do it okay so Leon Leandro is here he wants store meta metadata and then onboarding why don't we focus more on the onboarding side of things I think the metadata looks pretty good kid story book truth I don't know if this is a good word to put in here in Andro because it's I don't think anybody is searching for your brand so I like the brand in here I like kids story book but you might want to go into like kids bedtime stories or something of that realm that might be more ASO friendly year but that's what I would say for here and then he does have like children's book let me pull up his app let me stop sharing a little bit and then come on pull up some different screens on my so here is the app he got Children books bedtime stories yeah right here I might even just lean whatever has the most traffic lean into that term in the title and then you do have so the asoi having the main keywords to the left is probably it's better from that all right Josh you wanna anything that you want to give feedback on for the ASO side of things uh the rating is good I've noticed that Android ratings are so are so much lower um for whatever reason so I I respect the 47 on the Android store I'm an Android uh Noob so I don't I I don't think I have anything for you all right let's get into the app I think that's where we can make more because he's got 50,000 downloads so like that's great got your app in the background feels slow just like what you remind me like hey 5c difference so watching a video which is great what is this MCE Mees know feels like an error start my free week feels expensive to me especially on Android you might want to play around the pricing here and Andrew what do you think Josh like what' you f what' you feel about this whole on boarding I love the animations I mean it's really nice I'm not like I said I'm not uh I'm kind of new to Android what um what's the like is this is this us-based what is the 5490 per Mees yeah I don't know I'm assuming it's a year yeah but I don't know what the mes is so you probably want to have a language um I love that my kids apps always have that turns out they just learned what year I was born in and now they get past it it's hilarious yeah it looks like uh for the first year it's 50 it feels expensive to me and I've got some experience with some kids apps so yeah it feels a little expensive you might want to play around the pricing especially on Android it's oh he's here Android's here um it's $55 a year so play around with the pricing Leon Andro because we're we're doing that with our app that we just launched and we think it's probably a little bit too expensive we did get some sales already but this is on iOS typically Android doesn't convert as well as iOS and so people will tend to even have lower prices on the Android side versus the iOS side too like 10 $15 cheaper on on Android so that's what I would say anything here Josh you want to add no I think you got it let's move on I do like the pay wall the start free trial all that stuff yeah everything else looks pretty good if you find Val please for review oh okay I mean you might want to put leave a review or write a review versus leave a comment I didn't know what comment yeah I agree because you're there you're sort of asking for a favor there so you should you should be clear I like how you had intercom in the early versions I don't know if you still do is that something you would recommend to a lot of the app first time yeah I mean it's such an it's a it's a no-brainer I think everyone um you know it's it's cheap for the first couple years they have a startup thing I feel like the price is going to get really high when I finish that but it's kind of a superpower to be able to let users talk to you um right away and I actually have a thing on iOS that I stole from someone else but when you hard press the app icon such to you want to like delete it I have a shortcut in there like chat with me you know like do you need help like talk to me right now and let me tell you that literally blows up my phone wherever I am so just not not totally scalable anymore but uh but I still do it I love it you know just being a human I've always found and this was true ever I've worked in e-commerce and apps and all this but when you screw something up if you can fix it like really fix it you can almost be better off uh than you were if you didn't screw up at all so okay love it yeah I think it's it's it used to be a little easier to get to me now test messages yeah but just like good to be available you know people are people are always surprised like wow you're like yeah man I'm the engineer of the app too like you're not just talking to someone like I'm actually gonna fix your problem that goes a long way I love it well said my friend thanks okay and that's why I would recommend too because I think you know from my lesson with Josh Josh here at this doing this interview you might even Le Andro like you might even want to try a discount or like not giving any type of Trials yes like most people will buy but I have a sneaking suspicion because was in the kids app like kids apps as a parent myself I just want to make sure my kids like it I'm willing to pay I just want to make sure they like it so I'm almost like hey I'm okay with them trying out a few stories and then if they're very engaged all right you know like so maybe you don't need a trial you might want to play around with the pricing and you might not need a trial for this one too so I might want to play around with that especially on the Android side J has no trial and he's doing pretty well there's a trial just not using the trial mechanism you know what I mean right it's a it's a it's a fremium as it were yep I like it cool thanks Russ says can I ask one more question how many organic downloads do you get I mean percentage of total downloads yeah well this is one problem I don't I don't have a great answer to that unfortunately and this is where the like MMP piece comes in because the Facebook stuff is so large scale you know I know it's more than zero but it's certainly a concern um that I don't have a great answer to that right now do you have any best practices for knowing yeah if I were stop ads whatever is left over exactly and like when you run Facebook obviously your brand search volume goes up people are just going to search for wave AI in the App Stores too and so we see a natural Trend the the line there're there's a strong correlation between paid ads and app stor search downloads because there's always going to be a section of the audience so I'm glad you said it in the early days in the earlier in the interview interview you said hey I look at the Blended and I think that's the way to go because we do see like all downloads so if you just running Facebook look at your all downloads because then it'll give you an indication of how well Facebook is actually 100% 100% and I'm and I'm and I definitely buy in to that that someone sees an ad maybe they search for it later um sometimes though I have like I'll do an appearance you know like this I've done things like this before that I know drive a bunch of downloads and you see a bump but it's hard to tie like a vent based organic you know what I mean like you did something and so it got a bunch of inbound having a kind of a hard time measuring that but it's not a priority at the moment for the people that create and manage your ads do you give them a cut of the profits or it depends on the ad spend percentage of the ad spend um that is a good question um it is a percentage of the ad spin okay and I think you know there yeah you know it's still kind of a new thing I think there is you that's a traditional Ad Agency way to do it in many cases they would also make the ads if they were doing that I think it's um it's uh that's how I do it now I don't know how it'll be long term yep love it okay how about how are you in time um I gotta go a couple minutes because I have another one coming up not one of these why don't we do this then we'll let you go and then I'll take everything you did win so I owe you something joh but thank you so much you got three to one the app is called wave and you go to wave. co and then if you search for wave AI in the App Store you'll find it there as well but wave. Co and then wave AI in the app stores and Josh if the audience wants to connect with you in any other way after this do you want to send them anywhere else hit me on Twitter joshm I answer basically everything so awes send me an send me a question I will most likely answer it thank you all very much I appreciate we got over 100 people live tuning in so thank you so much for sharing your insights man congrats on all success thanks very much Steve have a good one keep in touch man cool all right I'll get into Alex's app a little bit and we'll go from there so great questions and I'll try to get to I've got a hard stop in a few minutes too but we'll get to it that was a great interview with Josh all right room cleaner Alex's app right here let me pull up his App Store he just wants onboarding and first and after onboarding user experience so Alex I'll take a look at it for those who are just listening it's a storage cleaner app it removes duplicate photos videos so forth we've worked with a few different apps like this too so I'll get into the details of this Alex all right let's get into I'll allow you to track welcome de broom love it I'm trying to swipe by the way Alex and I can't swipe so maybe think about add that like I'm just trying to swipe my phone like this but you're forcing me to hit get started yep I give you full access okay okay love this it's just analyzing my storage love this and then three days TR wow that's super cheap okay cool yeah I love this pay wall I mean there's nothing okay you have all the little trick to your too I like this I think I'll would play around with the price you know what we found is just for your lifetime it's for those are just listening it's $6.99 a month which I like you might want to play around with a week maybe people just want a week so maybe you can get away with just a week versus a month but that's just feedback I don't care if you change that then 20 bucks a year three-day trial I love that too you might want to play with not having a trial here too especially after Josh's interview here and then lifetime I'd make it $9.99 because we found that these type of weird numbers like 3099 don't convert as well as just showing a a usual rounded number 29.99 so put that test out with that because I think you'll do very well with this especially with the I love this lifetime $7.99 but crossed out it worked really really well so I love this Alex this is really good nice let me just delete some photos because I can okay delete selected I like it oh love it okay love this delete selected Del delete selected I was play around some AI apps okay let me just say delete all this is where you can start asking for viws Alex because I just had a good experience with your app so think about asking for a review and then even after if I leave a five star review I mean I know you can't tell but I would try to show the pay wall more often hey you know want to delete more and again like I would limit just sort of like play around with what Josh said too the 30 minute like give people a taste of what they can delete don't let them do get away with everything free because most things we will get away with if we can get away with things doing things for free we'll do it so here let's go oh I like this swipe mode delete keep this is definitely delete keep keep of course this is my Tinder profile right just kidding um cool trash yep delete yeah again here you can easily share get them to rate this is what I would change yeah cool you I think you waited too long there you go I got I saw the review and then show them so pay wall again because look they've had a good experience right they're more like they're probably more likely to pay want to free up more of your stuff the other option is as I do that give them a discount hey want to free up more space you can save you know five bucks off the lifetime so now the lifetime is like very close to the yearly like as I'm using the app that's a way for you to convert because you know ultimately they might forget to come back in just leave your app again so I would toy around with the the monetization here let's see if you show your pay yeah you do I would probably around with not having a trial like I know I promote having a trial but I think I like your the way you've priced everything that I would probably try not having a trial there too okay cool that is it we had a great live stream here guys let me see if there's any questions thanks guys thanks Josh Irvin where you been will this interview be recorded can't believe I just saw this in my YouTube feed thanks for doing this interview Steve thanks for joining it's always Gonna Be Live on YouTube all right it's always live people ask this is always live on YouTube and then it goes if you just want to listen to the audio only just go it'll go on the podcast every Monday morning all right so oh okay thank you R for answering it okay cool I think this is I'm using I'm Ben says I'm using rat right now but payall and it's pretty weak but at least I have some testing is software to test opening Journeys Ben you might want to check out adapt for onboarding stuff too dapy has some of that the revenue cat I love them I think they're really great for analytics they're not so strong on the pay wall side of things yet and so look at adopti look at Super wall for some of the pay wall stuff to do things to like do a lot of like AB testing and like changing the pay walls on the fly without needing a new build that's what things would be right Alex says thanks for the feedback pricing strategy is a bit old yeah it's a great app D I think you know let me just see your reviews if you're not getting that many downloads yet Alex you know the lifetime offer for free on app advice that should hack a lot of your ASO and your downloads there too so all right this was a great stuff thank you seeing the community all right see you there Ben didn't know if you're in the community okay Abdul I've got I'll I'll create a qu I'll create another video for this but I I've already taken a screenshot of this which tools would you recommend for identifying relevant keywords before building an MVP yes great question I'm gonna create a separate video off of this app follow right this is what I would use if you just want keywords so app follow to do keyword research it's not working right now but let's just assume like notaker right for Josh I put that in here AI notaker see so he's number two two this is great now app follow will work eventually but you hit this little I icon and this is how I do keyword research and you get the popularity it's unfortunately not working and then secondly Abdul what you would do is put it put all those keywords into app radar to get the difficulty scores and then launch the app that way too so that's how you that's how you do it those are the tools Steve please tell me what to do rting no showing I have no ideax I know you asked it a long time ago uh Steve why Apple not showing rated or review on app I'm sure five or six people did but not showing it because I put yeah look norx I think that's what's happening right now with the iOS Apple's like either not showing it as much look that's why I'm like honestly like sometimes I share too much information I feel like this you guys tell me because you guys are in the community as well when I share it does Apple start figuring out to look for it and start minimizing it this this is not a common theme this is common theme now shared showing the review prompt early on now few years later people are like oh maybe I'm not doing this INR I shared the whole discounting D onboarding and we got a bunch of different rejections now that people are doing that like more frequently so I feel like we have to be careful what we share publicly because Apple's paying attention all right but that's just me and very little things all right lean Andro says any tips references for landscape apps mostly games we've had a hard time finding good references you know what Andro so especially in the kid space because that's what you are in the look at I think lingo kids what they do really well is it is a landscape app but the onboarding is portrait mode so the onboarding is vertical which is natural and then as you get into the app itself pay wall everything's vertical until you get to the homepage of the app and then that's where they show they go landscape mode so look at lingo kids you know when you guys ask questions like this that's when I really feel like I know a lot about apps all right cool everything else I think we're good in right now all right that is it guys thank you guys for showing up we we hit over a 100 hey if anybody has any contact to Twitter please let me know because we go over a 100 all the time when I was streaming this on my personal Twitter profile but unfortunately you need to be premium and for some reason I can't sign up for premium on my personal Twitter profile so this goes live on the app Masters which has a little bit less following but still it's doing really well so thank you guys for tuning in next week we're going to have ten genen come on and we're going to talk all about like Advanced UA strategies and Analysis so look I do think that and we're making moves on our end to help you guys with UA and Facebook ads and so I feel like I haven't talked about this publicly because I wanted to feel really really confident that we're really really good and help you perform and so we're going to talk all about how do you analyze your UA efforts because as much ASO I like to talk about as you can see with Josh it takes UA too ASO is important but not the end all be anymore so I want to really focus more on the UA side of things and really getting good about that and I feel like we're there and so we're gonna we've been providing UA and Facebook ads for a lot of our clients if you want to work with us go check it out know just reach out to us at masters.com and we've got a video editor we've got a whole production team to handle your UA efforts so go to at masters.com if you want help and we're going to be running it on my own apps too that's what next week is all going to be all about how do you analyze your uaf and really figure it out because that is a very complicated situation as well all right that's it BBL on thank you guys for joining every Friday 9:00 a.m. Pacific I'm back baby content's been really good right I think so all right have a good weekend everybody I will see you