Jay, thanks so much for coming on. I've been like so excited to have this chat. I know we've had a couple of calls beforehand, but um I think I've just been really excited to get you on because you've got such an inspiring journey. Um obviously you build a career, you've built a really good personal brand, and the wealth management profession is obviously evolving really quickly. So, I'm just really keen to chat to you about how you got here, um what shaped you, and what you actually think the next generation of advisors um need to know. So, before we get into the career side, for anyone that doesn't know you, would you mind just starting off by giving a bit of an introduction to yourself? >> Yeah, of course. Um firstly, thanks for having me. Really, really happy to be here. My name's Jay Dalal. I'm a chartered independent financial advisor. I work for a company called Chase de Vere, and I've got about 10 years of financial services experience now. Um so, yeah. >> You've been doing it, so yeah, about a decade. And so, could you take me all the way back to the beginning, so whether that's 10 years ago, or whether it's a little bit before that, but how you first got into the industry? >> Yeah, I'll probably take us back to school if that's okay. So, at school, I think my strongest subjects were art and maths. So, I was really creative, and to be fair, my parents were really kind of encouraging with the creative creative side. I think I've painted my bedroom like more times than I can count. And they even let me like graffiti everything. Like, they're really, really encourage encouraging of that creative side. Then, at the same time, I was really good at maths. >> Yeah. >> So, that academic side, I was one of those really annoying students that didn't have to revise much, but would do really well in exams. So, that was me. So, it was kind of like both sides that I was kind of really good at. Um and it was getting closer to I think picking a subject for university where I thought, "Okay, I've got to make a decision here. Do I go art, which is like passion, or do I go I was studying economics at the time." Yeah, I did too. I did a degree in maths. Not a financial planning degree, but >> Well, to be fair, a degree is just a degree. You can take it anywhere. Um but then my dad, I think sat me down with a few of my older cousins. So, I've got a really big family. It's like traditional big Indian family. I've got 23 cousins on my dad's side. Yeah. And a lot of them had already gone to university already. So, my dad encouraged me to speak to some of them. So, I spoke to them and they said, I think typically just go down economics will probably work out better for you. And art you can still do as a passion, which to be honest, apart from sip and paint, you just don't really do it anymore. Um so, I went down the economics route and looking back now, I think I wasted my time at uni. You kind of just go through the motions and I didn't do any internships or anything like that or and I've learned from that. So, I've got a younger sister and younger brother. And my sister, she did a placement year, amazing. My brother did Camp America last year and he's doing it again this year. So, really good for him. Um but yeah, I just kind of went through it and then got a degree and I've always worked since the age of 16. But I just didn't really know where I wanted to go like professionally. So, I worked in a few different roles and it was mainly hospitality and events. A lot of kind of client or customer facing roles. And then I got my first office job, I'd say, in July 2015. And that's when I started working at Wesleyan. So, I was just like a data inputter. So, they'd have business development consultants go to events, get information off potential clients and then I was given that lead form and my job was literally just entering it into the system. And I'd do that and I think I was like targeted a hundred or something a day or something like that. Um and I did that for a few weeks, but while so I was there, I really liked the company and I really liked the culture and I think I just really bought into financial services. So, I thought, okay, where can I take this now? Um I think I'll try and get a permanent role and then I became a pensions technician. Um, so I was an administrator and I was working on the phones speaking to clients, financial advisers, independent financial advisers and pretty much anyone who had an inquiry that would call in that speak to me. Um, my manager at the time, her name was Kieran Johal. She was really really, yeah, she's encouraging. She was She liked to develop people to get them to where they want to go. So she helped someone get into compliance, someone else get into projects. So what I said after being on the phone for about six months, I think I can do the job of a financial adviser. I think I want to do it. So she said, "Do the exams." and she kind of supported me. Wesleyan I think paid for the administrative ones but they didn't pay for the diplomas or the ROs. So I had to self fund it and then I got the diploma. And then Wesleyan said, "Okay, once you get the diploma we'll get you into a role." But as soon as I got the diploma, they were like, "Okay, we've got this graduate scheme coming out in a year's time." And I got a little bit I think at that age you're a little bit kind of impulsive, aren't you? Well, you kind of want to progress maybe faster than you should. So I thought, "Okay, let me look at my other options." And then I interviewed at Chase de Vere at the time. It was the only other firm that I looked at to be fair and they said, "You're a strong candidate but you've just not got much experience." cuz I was going from admin to advising. So they said, "Go get some more experience." So I did. So I worked and then I applied for a paraplanning role at Wesleyan, got it. Applied for the graduate role which is about a year later in September 2018 and then I didn't get it. So I was absolutely gutted and I think in assessment centers I'm not the strongest candidate and it's probably why I'm not in the any of the big four cuz I did apply but I don't know what it is but assessment centers are just I can't do them. Yeah, there's a lot of pressure. So it was a similar environment and I thought I kind of expected it but I thought, "Oh, they know me. Like, worked here for so long. I've wanted this for I know I was shadowing at the financial advisors at the time as well." Um and yeah, I got rejected, but then I posted about it really openly on LinkedIn. And then the advisors and managers that I'd interviewed with at Chase de Vere saw it and said, "Actually, we've got a job that's coming up. Do you want to apply for it?" And I was like, "Yes." So, I applied for it and then I got it and then I became an advisor at Chase de Vere in January 2019. Um and then got chartered in 2022 and it's just been >> Up and up since then. >> And I guess it shows you that no one's journey is linear. Like you say, you got you rejected and then you got it and I guess that's kind of brought you to where you are today. And obviously you became chartered. I know you just glazed over that, but obviously it's not it's no small feat not just even getting the level four, but becoming chartered. I guess how how was that for you because like you say, I know you don't actually need to have the level six qualification to be an advisor, but you went and did it. So, how what did that mean to you like personally and professionally? >> Yeah. I think to be fair, I should have just carried on with my exams as soon as I got the diploma, but then I thought, "Do you know what? I'll take a break." And I was advised by the training managers to kind of focus on getting to learn the role first. So, I did that. I think I took a two-year break where I could have done it earlier if I wanted to, but I just thought, "You know what? I'll invest into the job first and then um do kind of the technical bits on the side. But I was always really conscious that I started advising at 26. Um and obviously being young, female, Asian, I was very, very different to everyone else. Yeah. So, I just thought, "I need to establish credibility in some way, shape, or form and chartered is a really, really good way of doing that." So, Yeah. That's why I did it. >> No, that that's that's amazing. And I guess kind of one thing I picked on up on is you've been really intentional about your career. So, obviously, you know, you got into the financial services industry then you kind of figured out I want to be an advisor. So, you kind of pushed your way into into Chase de Vere and obviously it all has gone really well for you. Do you think there's anything in particular that's kind of like driven that ambition? I know you mentioned that there was the lady that who's your manager at Wesleyan. She kind of was one of the kind of figures that would help with that, but would you say there's anyone who's inspired you along the way? >> Yeah, there's quite a few people to be fair. Um the reason that Matt Chester Veer, I think, is because of a lady called Virginia, Virginia Cavenagh. She was the one that first interviewed me back in 2017, and then we kept in touch on LinkedIn, and then she interviewed me I think she retired around 2022. Um but she's always kind of and I guess it's like looking out for the next generation in a way. Um so she's always inspired me, and there's loads of advisers at Chester Veer that I look up to. I'd love to name some of them, but I don't want to like focus on a few other than others. Um but yeah, there's loads of people. And I guess outside as well, um there's a couple of people in particular. I don't know if you know of Carla Brown. >> Yes, yeah. She's been on the podcast with my colleague James. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, really look up to Carla. She What she does, I don't know how People say to me, Jay, I don't know how you do everything that you do. But then I look at her and I think, how does she She runs a business, chair, president of the PFS. She does so many things, and it's just Yeah, so there's quite a few different people, but yeah. And then Kate Gannon is also on the power panel, so we all work together, um kind of providing content and events for the financial community. >> Yeah. A little bit of a community. And one thing that I I picked on that you said was you obviously were a minority, not just like being a female adviser, but being Asian and being young. So like you kind of were, you know, I I imagine there wasn't many people around you that looked like you, sounded like you, or were within the kind of same age range as you. I mean, do you think that's kind of helped get you where you are today in terms of like how passionate you are about representation and like opening doors for others and things like that. >> I think a little bit. Um but then I say that and a couple of months ago I went to a fund manager lunch and I won't say who it was, but I went in and I was the youngest in the room, the only female and the only Asian. And I thought I'm 6 7 years in now, like how is this still happening? Um and there was a guy at the event and he came up to me afterwards cuz we had a few mutual kind of um through the Birmingham Personal Finance Society. I'm on the regional committees as well. Um and he knew someone else on there. So we had a coffee afterwards and he was like, I felt so sorry for you in that room. And it's that like you walk into the room and you already know people are looking at me thinking, is she an advisor or does she work for them or is she like who is she and why is she here? And it's just yeah, you just yeah. So yeah, I don't know. But I'd say going back to your initial question, there's probably a few things ambitious or ambition-wise that have probably led to kind of who I am and how I've kind of got to this stage. Um I'd say a lot of it probably stems back to childhood. Um so some of it's the way that the way that I was raised. So my dad was really keen on education. So we did the 11-plus, got into grammar school, stuff like that. And he'd always say, if you don't ask then you don't get. So I always knew that you had to kind of work for what you wanted. So there's a bit of that. Um and I think also traditionally Asian girls and Asian boys are treated differently as well. So there's some correlation between that and also the profession, which I guess has probably helped me in a way, kind of prepared me for this. Um even though I didn't know it was coming. Um and one of the most is a really silly example, but my whole family are Manchester United supporters. And when I was younger, I was like huge into football and WWE wrestling. I've even gone to WrestleMania with my sister. Like we used to love that growing up. Um and my dad would always take my male cousins to the games and I had to beg for years and I think I was like 13 years old and finally got to go to my first United game. Went all the way to Old Trafford, they were playing Middlesbrough. They won 3-0 and like I remember it to this day but I had to fight so hard to get there and then it's kind of like a similar thing I guess in a way but in a really different way. >> Yeah. And I guess like you say even when like when you've been younger you've wanted to be kind of treated equally. So I guess like that kind of takes you to experiences that you've had within your career as an advisor, you know, ultimately you want to be treated as equal whether you're female, male or you know, whatever gender diversity you are. So I'd say that that I can imagine is like really influenced how passionate you are about stuff but I think it's something that people probably need to take on across the sector and like you say things have moved a bit over the last few years but the fact that like you say you've gone to a like a fund manager's luncheon you still feel like the only person who's like you kind of age range and stuff like that. Um does it how how does it make you feel? >> In terms of what? Being so different? >> Yeah, like how does it make you feel when you kind of are in those situations where perhaps you are, you know, most of the people maybe they're male in the room or they are they they look different or they're older. How does it make you feel like you say when maybe people look at you wondering like does she work for the advisors or was she an advisor? >> I think you've got to build up like you've got to build like a hard skin to it in a way like or a tough outer shell. So you've got to walk into a room and you'll assess it and you're like, "Ah, okay. It's one of those situations." But then I guess you look for friendly faces and there usually are quite friendly faces in the room. Um so I mentioned that advisor who's in the room and then he offered to go for a coffee after and just talk quite kind of candidly about things. But um but yeah, there are always quite friendly faces in the room so you never really alone even though you might feel like you are. And I feel like other people that are in the room that notice that also kind of make it better in a way. >> Mhm. >> Um so yeah. So it's it's yeah, it can be a little bit daunting. But I think the more you're exposed to it and >> Yeah, you kind of get used to it. >> of get used to it. >> And like resilience, I know you've mentioned not just like stable on your like your socials. That's a part of like who you are. And I imagine that's helped you make you more of a resilient person. And kind of to go on to like the visibility side of things and the personal brand. Obviously, you've really put a lot of work and effort into personal brand. Um and I guess being visible, obviously, you know, you've got the J J the IFA branding. And I know you've kind of mentioned you're going to be doing a lot of YouTube stuff. So you've put a lot of effort and it's almost like a second job um getting all that kind of stuff like online on LinkedIn things like that. Do you think there was anything like regarding the fact that you felt like a little bit different that kind of led you to want to have such a visible personal brand? >> I think so. Um and I think it kind of I think I'm trying to use it as a platform now um for others. Um and I think I've also been an advisor for 7 8 years now. So I've got a bit of experience behind me. And a lot of people do say like they're a bit like Jay the IFA at 30 now. How long can you keep calling yourself young for? So I am a little bit conscious of that because I am more experienced now. So I'm not as young as I used to be. Um but I have built up a platform in a way. I think quite naturally I like to share my life online. And we've grown up with probably like >> Yeah. >> and all that kind of thing. So it's it probably comes quite natural um in a way. So I've been quite good at it in that sense. And also I was really conscious as advisors you're quite limited in what you can post. Yeah. So especially with the FCA and financial promotions, um I think early on in my career I got kind of a little bit told off about certain posts. Just saying like oh you know, contact me for a complimentary financial review. Didn't think there was anything wrong with that. But that is a financial promotion at the end of the day. Yeah. >> So then I was like, "Okay, I need to be really careful about what I am and what I'm not posting." So I just used to stick to mainly stuff about um my qualifications, events that I'm going to. So I think that's why my personal brand is probably a lot stronger than others because I knew that was a safe thing to post about. >> Yeah. >> Um but everything's changing now and I think the financial services world more people are trying to get online, social media, YouTube. My YouTube to be fair, I woke up yesterday and I thought, "Oh, I'm such a failure. I've only done one video." But it is a second job, you are right. You have to put a lot of time and effort into it. Um so that's going to be my next focus for the next few months. And I've been invited to um Humans Under Management. So they've invited me to do a presentation. And hopefully I've got enough data to base it on social media and personal brand and kind of I guess delve into it a bit more. >> Mhm. One of the things I really liked when I first became first came across your profile was that you weren't just posting about your job. You obviously really led into like the personal side of personal branding and posting like just general like updates and things about your life which I think leads into that human connection. And I think that's probably also will help other people see that like, you know, you're more than just an IFA. Um do you think that like you mentioned earlier about Instagram and stuff like that that kind of came quite naturally to you because outside of work, you know, you have we have social media and things like that. Do you think posting things like that on LinkedIn just became kind of quite a natural thing for you to do? >> Yeah, I think so. And I think someone made a joke the other day. They were like, "Jay can turn anything into a LinkedIn post." Like we I think we talked about it earlier. I went to I went to a networking event at my gym a couple of weeks ago and it's just I don't know. It's just like little things like that. And I give blood regularly and I turn that into a post. And you are right. You make a really good point that people do buy into people. There are so many financial advisers out there, and one of the things that I've always noticed is that someone's clients are a reflection of them in a way. So, that person has chosen that adviser for some reason. So, maybe they relate on some kind of level, or maybe they like the things they talk about, or they post about, or the relationship, or whatever it might be, but there is that kind of human element side of things, definitely. >> 100% and like you say, people buy from people, and obviously with like the rise of AI and these kind of technologies, I guess the one thing it can't replicate is like the human emotion side. So, I guess you're differentiating yourself from other advisers by, you know, really getting that human connection from, you know, promoting yourself on LinkedIn and talking about you as a person. So, do you think maybe other advisers who perhaps don't tap into like the personal brand, maybe misunderstand it a little bit, or I mean, like the timing definitely comes into it. So, like it can take a lot of extra time outside of your day job, but do you think perhaps maybe they misunderstand like personal branding a little bit? >> Potentially, but I also think a lot of people, and I'm doing this right now with my YouTube, you overthink it as well. Like I spent this Saturday morning, um I canceled my gym session. I was like, right, I need to edit this video, because it takes our financial promotions team about three to four working days to sign a video off. Yeah. So, there's like there's a bit of a lapse in the timeline anyway, so I was like, right, I need to do it, need to do it. Took me three hours and I edited the first 30 seconds of a 9-minute video. So, I think I think maybe it is a little bit misunderstood. I guess people don't know why you do certain things, but I think when it builds a picture of who you are as a person, some people will buy into it and some people won't. And the people that do buy into it are the ones that will want to work with you. So, it kind of works both ways, but yeah, I think the overthinking is probably what makes people buy more than anything else, yeah. How do >> you balance I guess being professional but with also showing like your personality because again like I know you've said previously when you first started posting you might have been posting stuff that was very much like financial planning focused which maybe you got told off for because it didn't fit in line with like financial promotion. So now I feel like you've got this balance of being professional but also showing your personality. How how do you do that? >> It is really hard. I always have to think I'm in my head I'm like, "Is this for LinkedIn or is this for Instagram?" And I think that's my distinction. So is it is it for my friends or is it for professional my professional network? And sometimes I look at LinkedIn and I think, "Yeah, maybe not LinkedIn, maybe Instagram instead." So it'll go one way or the other for me. Um so yeah, I think I'm like continuously thinking about things to post about and then either thinking, "Yeah, which which platform is right for it really?" Um and then taking that one step further with YouTube, I think that'll be more educational content and then I will have well I've got a professional Instagram and TikTok that you need to stop posting on. But then that will kind of be like a lead funnel for people to see those little clips and then kind of click through and then yeah, it just works. It's a system which is really hard to get going but I think once you get going it gets a lot easier. But I'm still I'm kind of I'm I'm not all the way all all the way there with LinkedIn but getting there I guess. And at the start of it with YouTube and everything else. >> What would you say is the best being visible has done for your career in terms of like maybe opportunities that have come from it or people that you've met? >> That's a really good question. There are so many opportunities. I honestly can't tell you well I can tell you Um but to name a few, I think um one of them is probably all the work that I'm doing with the Personal Finance Society. And I think a lot of the advisers that do a lot of work with the Personal Finance Society advisers that I really like and probably share a lot with in terms of common values and that kind of thing and that need and want to give back to others. So my education champion, I'm on the PFS power panel. So there's only 12 of us in the whole of the UK that meet on this power panel. I've been on it for 3 years and I'm extending for the next 3 years and then I'm out. So anyone who's listening that wants to join you can do in about 3 years when I'm out. But they have vacancies every now and again. But that's open doors for me to present at the national conference last year in September which honestly I thought I'd be doing years and years in the future. Did not think I'd be doing it as soon as I've done it. I've joined the Birmingham kind of regional committee with the PFS and we're doing a few regional events. But also on a social side I've connected with so many different advisers. And also people like Sam Oaks. I was on his podcast last year and I was invited on to that because I'd met someone called Bobby Sahota through LinkedIn and she invited me into this circle. And then me and Carl went to dinner with all of them kind of last year. So Paul Taylor, Paul Bradley, Bikash Kanani. There's quite a few of them and we all kind of meet together and yeah. And it's just create this kind of community in a way. So there's just lots of different opportunities I guess. And then we all meet with aspiring financial planners in our own way and want to give back and help I guess. So yeah, community wise it's been great. >> I think it sends such a good message because I guess like you say for anyone that's hesitating posting online which I know like something I can definitely improve on. You've just given some amazing examples of what can come from it. And like you say, you know, doing a few LinkedIn posts and posting some videos has led to you to meet in some amazing people but getting involved in opportunities which like you say you didn't think would happen for years. So I think it's like a really really strong message to people who are maybe thinking about starting to be a bit more active on LinkedIn or being a bit more visible in terms of like their personal brand. Do you ever I guess, worry about getting judged at all online? >> This is a really good question. I think this all the time. Like all the time. Like sometimes I'll put something out and I'll think, "Oh, what do people think?" Cuz naturally being different anyway, I feel like there's a spotlight light on you without you even wanting there to be a spotlight. So then, you are naturally going to get more comments and more opinions from people. And then when you do post, that's obviously amplified. And yeah, I am I do Do you know what? I used to not care what people thought when I was younger and at school, but the older that I've gotten and the more I care about my profession and my career and and that kind of thing, the more I care. Which is really annoying. So, yeah. >> Why do you think that is? >> I don't know. I think now because I'm trying to I'm trying to do all these different things and also give back and I guess like last year for example, I won the Women in Finance Award for Role Model of the Year. And I guess when you're like named as a role role model and you then think, "Oh, am I a role model?" Like I don't know. So, you do you do question things. It's imposter syndrome. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Quite a bit. But yeah, I think it's natural and most people probably do it anyway. But yeah, definitely being different is highlighted. >> it it's it's so natural to kind of I guess worry about what other people think. But again, it kind of links into to like yeah, you're going to have these thoughts. But by doing it, what the amazing opportunities it that can lead to. I mean, what advice would you give to anyone, whether it's advisers, people within the wealth management people wanting to break into the sector, what advice would you give to them who are maybe wanting to be more visible and put themselves out there? >> Yeah, I think one of my fav- one of my favorite quotes, and I say this all the time, probably in every podcast, every article article I do, is change begins at the end of your comfort zone. And I feel like embracing that, I've solo traveled. I've done so many different things. But even in a working environment, I've done a presentation to all the advisers at Chase de Vere back in 2024. Uh So, there was 240 people. Did a presentation about my career 5 years in, which is a bit wild to think about. And a year later, I got invited to do it again for all the staff. So, there was 380 people there. And I was literally the first year, I was on this podium and I had this script in front of me and I just thought, I can't speak like this naturally cuz I care too much what people think about me. I'm just going to read so I know that I can't mess up. And literally there was a lady who was organizing the event and I got off stage and she was like, "Yeah, I could see your little legs shaking like this." I was wearing like little heels and she was like, "See them shaking?" And honestly, like I was so nervous and change is scary, but I feel like the more you do it, the easier it gets. Yeah. >> Do you think in the future, I guess, being a good advisor is going to require actually being more visible and more relatable and having a personal brand? >> I think it depends on the advisor, really, if I'm honest. For people, it does work and for other people, it doesn't have to. So, you there are some advisors out there that have built their business based on professional introducers. Yeah. So, they don't really need to focus on personal brand because they've got those relationships kind of set up already. But then there's advisors like me that go to networking events and are visible with personal brand and looking to get out there with social media and hopefully it will pay off one day, but it's also a long, long journey. So, either way, I think you've got to look at your strengths and who you are as a person and then kind of decide what aligns with you and the advisor that you want to be and then those clients will come to you for whatever that that reason >> no harm in doing it, I guess, especially for those who are kind of coming into the industry earlier on in their journey. So, I guess like we've really gone into some depth about the personal branding and I guess visibility and obviously you have become a really visible role model and you've won awards, not just that one but you've won many awards and I guess you know it does send that really strong message to people who maybe have not always seen themselves as like represented within the sector. How important is representation to you? >> Um the older I get I think the more important I think it is and also the more experience that I get I do want to give back. So we've spoken about you know times where I felt like the only person in the room that probably can relate to me or is me or whatever it is. Um but I think it is really really important and I did a talk last year at a professional power planner event for aspiring advisers and I did the talk and it was all about personal branding and I'd prepared this presentation and I thought this is going to be great. But then I got up and spoke in front of the whole room and it was only about half an hour 40 minutes and I thought I've just literally spoken about myself for about half an hour 40 minutes and I actually hate it in in a full room of people. I find it really cringe. I can do a post about it and just forget it. But then getting up in front of a room talking about all the things you've done and I'm like, oh I hope I didn't come across like I'm bragging like that was awful. And I honestly I felt so down for the next day. I was like that was awful. Like they're all probably thinking this that and the other. But then um two people reached out to me. So there was one young adviser and now I'm his mentor. So we meet on a quarterly basis um and he's also on the CII next generation program as well. So he's doing and he's doing great and we just speak. Um but then there was a young girl who reached out to me and we follow each other on LinkedIn and we'd message here and there. And then she said, "Hey Jay, do you mind if we meet because I'm thinking about applying for an award?" And I was like, "Oh my god, that's amazing." So we met and I went through my award applications that I've done in the past and I was also invited back to be a judge for the professional adviser um young achiever of the year award. So I won it in '23 and they invited me back to be a judge in '24. So, it's like, "Okay, I kind of know what they're looking for now because I judged it one year." Um, so, we just spoke about the things she was doing and I was like, "Okay, highlight this, highlight that, talk about this, talk about that." And I just thought, it's just nice to be able to do that for someone else because I have Chase de Vere and Chase de Vere, to be fair to them, do put us forward to for awards and they have someone that helps us with our entries, but a lot of people don't have that. A lot of people, when I spoke in that room, didn't even know that you have to put yourself forward or someone has to nominate you. Um, so, it's just little things like that and I think if you can share your knowledge and help others and it's a bit like with clients, if you can provide value, then you're doing good in the world, right? So, yeah. >> Mhm. And it sounds like to me that you just like helping people, whether it is like your clients or whether it's people that want to break into the sector or, you know, apply for awards. That's like a probably a a real driver for you and a bit of a passion. And I guess I don't know if that's been driven from like you like your journey in the career, but I mean, do you think there's been any moments within within your time whether maybe you felt like you've had to work a bit harder to prove yourself? >> Yeah, I think there's been a lot of times where I felt like that, to be fair. Um, I think, yeah, I think experience is part of that as well. Um, and someone did ask me a few years ago, um, within Chase de Vere, they were like, "Jay, why do you work so hard? Like, what what makes you work this hard?" And I really thought about it and I was like, "This is a really good question. I don't know." Cuz when you're in it, you're just doing it, you're just working, working, working. And I sat back and I thought, "Why?" And I just thought, to be fair, um, there was like, so, family-wise, I've seen and traditionally, so, like, males are kind of in charge of the finances and women usually take a backseat. And I've seen and experienced a lot of scenarios where it's gone wrong and it's like, uh, it's hard to talk about but like even with my little family like it's like ripped them apart in a way. So I just I've never really wanted that to happen to anyone else and I wanted to like I'm getting really sad. But yeah like my parents divorced like 4 5 years ago it's really hard um But I guess like experience and like it just made me like throw myself into work and just be there for my clients and make sure that if I can no one else will have to go through that if that makes sense. >> Oh you're going to get Sorry. I think no don't apologize honestly like you've done so many amazing things here and like that's why I was so keen to get you on because not just in terms of like your job as an IFA but you've helped so many people. You've given so many examples there of people that have you know you've helped whether it's mentoring helping them get awards or even just your posting and like I always hear the phrase of if if it impacts one person then it was worth the effort and you've impacted many people and I guess even with this podcast today you know the little clips people will see or even if people listen to the full thing I'm sure at least one person will take something away from it that will benefit them whether it's in their career or their personal life. So I'm sure everyone in your family is really proud of you and all of the people that are around you. So um I guess it's like you're passionate and it means a lot to you which is again probably what is driving you you know driving you forward and ultimately you probably put a a lot of pressure on yourself as well. >> 100% like yes I woke up thinking I'm such a failure how have I not got how have I just done one YouTube video like I've been banging on about this for 5 6 years finally got given the chance and I'm like there's so much going on and I think there is a bit or there is a time in life where you're going to have to sit down and prioritize what's important um and this is definitely important doing stuff like this and I really like you and this podcast and like yeah so I think you've got to say yes to the right opportunities and I think I just need to be a bit more kind of conscious of my time to get everything that I wanted cuz we are quite limited in what we can do. >> Yeah, of course. And like you say, I think when, you know, you're trying to spin all the plates, it can get a bit much at times and, you know, you can be harsh on yourself thinking that because you've maybe not done one thing that, you know, you're a failure, but that's like not the case at all. And again, like you've achieved so much and you're only 33, which obviously we know is young for the industry, especially with like the the the minorities as well. I mean, I know one thing that you mentioned to me previously is that you have, I guess, faced discrimination um in your career. I mean, do you think that's also shaped like the way that you do show up today? >> I think so. Um I've been in a lot of rooms and even networking events where there's a group of guys and you'll be there and they'll be exchanging details and they're like, "Sorry, Jay." I'm like, "What?" They're like, "We're going to go for beers at this time. Sorry, Jay." And I'm like, "Right. Okay. Cool." And I'm like, "How do I build professional introducers where Do you know those relationships where you're just automatically discarded because of who you are?" It's just really hard. Um but I've managed to do it in different ways now and you'll find the people and the kind of other solicitors, accountants, or whoever whoever it might be that want to work with you. Um and I did mention my gym that I recently did a networking event and they've actually asked me to be an ambassador. Um so we're going to do a lot more networking events as well. And I guess health and fitness is really important. And that's also taken off quite a lot with like Gen Z, I guess. So the world is changing and things are going to change and I think you just need to embrace it and just keep showing up being who you are and then the right opportunities will always find you. >> Mhm. And I guess like you've said that like the networking, the fitness, the day job, the posting, it's like spinning so many plates. So I suspect you don't really work a 9-5. You're kind of your hours are way beyond that. How do you How do you fit it all in? >> It's so hard. I think yesterday, obviously I woke up feeling really overwhelmed and behind. And I just worked night like I think it was like 8:00 in the morning till about 8:00 or 9:00 in the evening. And I was like, "Okay, I just need to lock in and just get all this stuff done and then I'll feel better. And then when I go to, you know, film the podcast today, for example, I'll feel lighter. I'll feel okay cuz everything else is being looked after." Um but yeah, I tend to work in bursts, I guess. And some days I'll be focusing on client stuff, some days it'll be other stuff. Other days it'll be networking events, but then spinning all the plates. It just, yeah. But then it comes down to being conscious of your time, doesn't it? And just making sure that you're not burning out and you are still making time for the gym or seeing friends or family. So, yeah. >> And having time to travel as well and having that downtime. I mean, I guess with like the fitness and like lifestyle and stuff, how do you, in terms of you mentioned that you've been to a networking event with your gym? So, I guess that kind of, you know, takes two boxes at once. But how important do you think it actually is in terms of like, obviously, I know for me making time for fitness is so important so that I actually do better professionally. I don't know if that's something that you can relate to, but I always find that like if within a week I can fit my fitness sessions, then I'm a bit more productive outside of that. Do you think that, I guess, fitness like I guess positively affects you professionally as well? >> 100%, yeah. I've been going to the gym, I think, for at least the last 10 years. Um it was probably since the age of maybe like 23, 24, I'd say. Um around the same time that I worked at Wetherspoons, I used to go to the gym called EasyGym. And then they closed down in 2019, then I joined JD Gym. And now I've recently moved and well, I've got that membership too because of the sauna and other stuff. So, I've got two memberships now. Um but I've also joined another one called Just Move. Um and I've always, to be fair, throughout my career put my gym sessions in my diary. And my manager, she does joke about it. She's like, "Jay's doing legs today. Jay's back today. Jay's doing chest today." Cuz I do a lot of strength training, Um but I feel like it is really important and even if it's not weightlifting, if it's running, if it's Pilates, if it's even stuff like golf or other stuff, tennis, whatever it might be, as long as you're fitting something in where you are moving, it does really, really impact you mentally as well. >> I've definitely seen a rise in like, you know, the networking being linked in with fitness. So, like paddle events, run clubs and things like that. So, I guess that can, you know, yourself who enjoys the fitness side of things. I bet that's quite nice to be able to like put both passions in one. I guess with like networking in generally, like do you think it comes naturally to you because obviously from like speaking with you and things like that, you seem to build relationships quite easily. Does the networking side come naturally to you or do you think it maybe is also dependent on who who is in that room? >> Yeah, to be fair, I got asked a similar question by business development manager a few weeks ago for coffee and she was like, "Jay, how do you do it and how do you do so many?" She was like, "Do you just enjoy it?" And I was like, "Yeah, I do really just enjoy it." I'm not going into a networking event thinking, "Oh, who am I going to meet? What are they going to do for me? What business is going to come out of this?" I don't really go into stuff with that intention. It's more just getting to know people and then if I can, I can help them. So, for example, 2 days ago I stayed on after a gym session. I helped one of the girls at the gym. She's kind of looking to do a career change. So, I sat down with her for an hour, helped her write a new CV. Someone else came along and then was like, "Jay, can you do some business protection for me?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure. Why not?" Like, so it's just yeah, I think I do just really enjoy it and I think I do just love meeting people and yeah, so networking events for me definitely work. >> And I guess it's so much easier when you enjoy it. Like, you know, it's so much more difficult to have to do tasks and do parts of your job that you don't enjoy, but if you genuinely love going out and meeting people, whether it's like you say clients or networking with introducers or things like this, then I guess it's a lot easier to get up in the morning when you actually love what you do. >> Yeah, and I think another thing that makes it a lot easier is that I live in central Birmingham. So all the networking events are like a 10-15 minute walk from me. So if it was the case of traveling an hour there and an hour back, it's a different story sometimes. But because I'm in this time of my life right now where it's it's all just yeah, it's all just working and I'm just yeah, I'm in the midst of it. So if it's another I've got another networking event today to be fair at 4:00. It's at NatWest Bank. It's actually like it's down the road. It's a 10-minute walk from me and I thought should I do it should I not and I was like 4:00 till 6:00, yeah, why not? Yeah. >> Mhm. >> I mean you say yes to a lot of things, probably most things and obviously you are conscious of like your time. Do you think there's been any kind of like trade-offs in life with I guess you know, going all in on work and like spinning all the different plates of like work, fitness, networking, etc. Would you say there's been any trade-offs in life with kind of you know, committing so much time to all of that? >> Yeah, that's a really good question. I am 33 and single. So I think if I had a relationship, maybe it'd be a little bit different and I'd have less time for all of this other stuff. So I guess that's a trade-off in a way. Um other things, um I'd probably say health-wise, travel-wise, I'm still kind of doing it all. And yeah, yeah. I guess it's just how you manage it. Yeah. >> How do you find it I guess if you're on holiday, are you on holiday like phones off or do you find it quite hard to switch off? >> So holidays are like my passion outside of work. I've been to 37 countries now and I think from 2016 onwards I had this thing I was like I need to go on seven holidays abroad a year. That was my thing, at least once every other month. And then COVID happened so I had a bit of a break, went to Scotland instead. I was like I need to do something and then I've just carried it on but not so much seven anymore but I'll fit them in. Um I think, apart from my first couple of holidays, apart from those, I've always taken my laptop away. Even when I've been in Brazil at Rio Carnival or like backpacking around Vietnam, Cambodia, my little ThinkPad laptops come with me. And it's just it's it's more I don't want to leave it and come back to loads of stuff that's going on. And I think clients also, when they get your out of office but you do reply, they do appreciate it, so they know that you're just you'll always be there. And even if you're not dealing with it then, you know, there's someone who will. Or even if it's just taking your phone and just replying on a phone or something like that, but just periodically checking, I think, is important. But I do definitely switch off on holiday, but there is a part of me that's always like, "Oh, just need to make sure it's okay." >> It's good that you still manage to get the time as well to like travel and enjoy life outside of it, because I think it's so important to have those, whether it's a week, whether it's a few days for a city break, to experience something a bit different than being in your hometown and working and networking and things like that. So, it's really good that you still, I guess, find the time to do that. Um I guess to move on to I guess the future of the sector and things that, you know, could be done differently or things that are going well and things like that. Um obviously you're 10 years into your career, things are going really, really well. You've done so much so far. What excites you the most about the future of the sector? >> I think it's going to all the events like Professional Power Planner, the Aspiring Adviser. I'm going again next week and doing hopefully a better presentation than what I did last November. Less braggy, hopefully, but more kind of valuable. Probably wasn't, but I just thought it was cuz I find it so awkward. But it's just going to events like that and then speaking to people. And I remember at the event afterwards, I think I'd said something in the presentation and it was to do with personal branding. I literally said, "Take a picture of yourself in front of the sign for the event and put it on LinkedIn. And then the week after there were so many pictures of people from that event and I was like, "No way they listened." Um but it's just yeah, the younger people coming in um and they're all really keen and eager to learn. I think at the moment I've got four requests from aspiring advisers in Chase de Vere that want to shadow my meetings because they want to kind of progress. Um so the demand is definitely there um and I think yeah, it's just exciting to see and hopefully be a part of helping people on their journeys. >> What do you think I guess this what skills matter most now to these advisers are coming up in the industry? So perhaps maybe you 5 years ago um or or even like when you first became an adviser, what skills do you think are now most important for advisers and what advice could you give them? >> Um I think soft skills are definitely important and those are the things that they don't really teach you. Yeah. So the technical stuff you can learn from exams or kind of power planning cases, that kind of thing and that will come naturally with time and experience. But I think if you are an aspiring adviser, then shadow as many advisers as you can um and also different advisers. So you could shadow someone like me and then someone completely different to me to see how we work um and then pick up on different things and then I guess trial and error it as you start um because you might make mistakes, which is fine, it's natural. But you'll also find out what works and what doesn't work for you. Um so yeah, so those soft skills, so speaking to people, building relationships, going to networking events, just putting yourself out there and seeing how it feels and what aligns with you. >> Mhm. And you mentioned that like the soft skills and I know we've already touched on like AI and things like that and how that's massively changing the the wealth management landscape. Do you think now that clients are almost like starting to want a different type of relationship with their adviser because of those things? So you know, not just solely wanting them for the advice that they give, but do you think that's changed a little bit over time? >> A little bit. I sometimes think with some of my clients that I'm a bit of a counselor. So, it's not just finances, you talk about life, you talk about children, you talk about family, you talk about their holidays, their travel plans. Um so, it is it is evolving in a way. Um and I find it really funny. I got off the phone, I think a couple days ago to one of my clients, and he's in his 80s, and we get along really well. Got off the phone, and I was like, "Guys, I'm friends with an 80-year-old." And I was like, "But okay, he's my client, but we just get along so well that he feels like a friend." Um so, yeah. So, I would say it is definitely evolving, and relationships should be for life, really. So, yeah. >> It's such a relationship-led role, and I think like again, you you goes back to the job satisfaction. You're going to enjoy it so much more and feel so much more satisfaction out of it if you've actually built that connection with someone. Um so, I think it is a really good piece of advice to people who are maybe coming up in the industry to I guess try and focus on those softer skills and maybe start trying to think about that sooner. I know it will come more naturally some but to some people than others, but I guess a big reason as to why a lot of people become an adviser is because they want to help people. So, I think it's definitely um something for um people to think about. Is there anything that you think people should kind of stop worrying about because I know we've discussed kind of like overthinking and like worrying about being judged, but I know that sometimes younger advisers or younger people coming into the industry are going to worry about certain things. What would you say people should maybe stop worrying about? >> Yeah, I think a lot of the questions that we got last asked last year were all all about kind of being young and if age was a factor and kind of how clients see you. And when I first started out, um the first thing that clients would always say to me is, "How long have you worked for James Devere?" Cuz I think I look a little bit younger than I am. So, when I was like 26 advising, I probably looked like I'd just graduated from uni like a couple weeks ago. So, I'd don't say, "No, I've been doing this a little while." blah blah blah. But then, I would like bamboozle them with my NHS pension knowledge and they were like, "Oh, okay. So, she knows what she's talking about." I was like, "Yeah, cool." So, I think technical knowledge can can build credibility in that way. Um and age, naturally, if you are a younger advisor, will probably get picked up on. But I think it just depends with how you deal with it. Um one of my worst client meetings, I think it was the second or third client I ever saw, and I talk about this all the time as well cuz it's a really good story. Um walked into the meeting, my senior manager was with me because you've got to shadow the first, I think it's like the first three to five meetings when you first starting out just to make sure that you're doing all the brochures and that stuff properly. Um and I went through the brochures and then she said, "Okay, right. Give me the lifetime allowance kind of calculation right now." And I was like, "Oh, okay. We've been trained for this. I know it. Really easy. For the NHS pension, it's 20 times the annual pension plus the lump sum if there is one." So, I knew it in my head, but I thought, "Okay, I've also been trained if you're not confident enough to say, 'That's what you're interested in. I'll take notes on it, um look into it, come back, and then we can talk about it further. But today is, you know, fact-finding session. We're going to go through and just information gather and kind of understand your circumstances.'" And then she just looked at my manager and said, "Can I be allocated to a more senior advisor, please?" And I just shrank. I was like didn't even know what to say. I was like It was so awkward and we left that meeting. The meeting probably lasted about 5-10 minutes. And sat in the car and his name was Stephen and he looked at me and he was like, "Jade, you've done nothing wrong." And he was Scottish. He said it in his accent and he was like, "Jade, you've done nothing wrong. You've done everything right. It's not you." And I just thought, "Yeah, okay, fair enough. You know what? I can't not be confident." Um and I think that's a really good example for aspiring advisors that are younger cuz there are going to be people that question it. But again, it comes down to resilience. You can't let it knock you. You have to keep going because you will get better and you will learn more as time goes on and then you'll find your own niche and then you'll be fine. >> Mhm. No, that's a really good bit of advice. And obviously you've mentioned there how like yeah, age probably has come up a little bit, whether it's like positive or negative. Sometimes it is just more of a shock that you know, they're so used to seeing advisors who are a lot older because that is the demographic of like you know, the age of advisors in the UK. But I mean, it will have improved over time, but do you think we've still got quite a long way to go and what would you like to see change in the sector in terms of people's views on you know, whether somebody doesn't look like your typical advisor? >> Yeah, to be fair, I think it is changing. So when I first started out, I think 16% of advisors were women and only 6% were under the age of 30, but that now has changed. I think I think recent stats, I think there's quite a few more. Um, I don't want to say statistics just in case they're wrong now. >> Yeah, yeah. I've got one in my head but I'm also not sure if it's right, so I don't want to say it. >> They've recently changed. So up until I'd say the last few months, I think the average age was 57, 58, but I think it's actually a lot younger now. Um, so I do think it is changing and people that are different are also welcome and they will find their own clients. I've heard of of some advisors that are now targeting um as their niche kind of content creators and specifically trying to give them advice and those are people that will mirror them in a way. So I guess it just depends um how you want to take it, but yeah. >> Mhm. And like you say, you've obviously faced you know, issues with maybe having meetings with clients that were maybe a little bit tough on you and like one of the things that can be massively helpful with that is having a good boss and someone that actually like believes in you. You've mentioned a few that like in in your career which have been massively influential in terms of like being there for you or maybe look up to and there's their inspiration. Is there any message that you would give to someone who perhaps is a manager or in like a position of, you know, supervising some younger advisors, is there any message that maybe you would give to them? >> Yeah, I think it is just give them the opportunity. And even if the role's not there, so if an advising opportunity isn't there or readily available, just be honest as well. Don't do the whole, "Oh, you do this and then you can be an advisor." and then change the goal post cuz that happened to me and it can be so kind of off-putting and people will leave. Good people will leave the company if you do that. So I think just be honest, try and put in kind of a structured kind of career path. >> Yeah. Let them shadow other advisors. Honestly, I'm such a big big fan of shadowing. >> Even now, I think if there are some advisors that I look up to and I'm a bit like, "Can I just sit in one of your meetings just to see what you're doing?" And then also I think I did it recently and then I was like, "Oh, yeah, I do a lot of this. Okay, this is good. This is good." So even sometimes it can be confirmation for you in a way. But yeah, just doing little things like that and it doesn't have to be related to advice. It could be working on a case or talking a case through because you're only going to learn through experience. So unless you've done the case yourself or know someone else who's done a case like that, it's hard to kind of learn. So there's lots of different ways that people can learn. So I think just highlighting those opportunities and then pushing people towards that. >> And one other thing I wanted to kind of ask just on that kind of topic is obviously there's been a massive improvement in the diversity in the industry, whether that's age, gender, etc. But there's still a bit of a way a long way to go. What things do you think can improve that in terms of I know that we've seen things like school leaver programs at firms or even kind of, you know, when I was at school, I didn't even know what an advisor was. I didn't know what an investment manager was. I didn't really know anything about wealth management. So I guess I imagine there's still a lot of younger people, females, males and, you know, and the rest, um, did not you know that that the roles existed. So, what things, I guess, could you think of that could really help improve that and improve the diversity in the industry? >> Yeah. So, to be fair, um, I didn't know about financial services until I kind of fell in it. Typical. >> something that's promoted. You hear about lawyers, doctors, etc., but I'd never heard of an advisor. >> Yeah. When I was at university, I thought I wanted to be, um, a management, um, consultant. That was a big thing or investment banker. Yeah, one of those kind of jobs. Um, but I think there are a lot of things that people can do. So, um, I'm a school governor for the secondary school that I went to, so King Edward the VI Handsworth School for Girls. Um, I'm now a school governor there. It's quite funny because I wasn't always the best student, but it's funny how things also kind of full circle. Um, and I spoke at their first ever careers day last year, March, so March 2025. Um, and I spoke about my career as a financial planner and why it would be potentially a good role. I then went in a couple of minutes ago and helped with the year 10 mock interviews. And I spoke to one young girl and she she was kind of she's really talkative and she had really good kind of like soft skills. Um, and we were just talking about her kind of, um, kind of what she wanted to do after university. I was given a set kind of number of questions to ask her. And she said, "Oh, I might go into kind of real estate. I might be kind of an estate agent." That kind of thing. And then she was like, "What do you do?" So, I explained what I did and she said, "I might look into that." I was like, "What?" So, it's just having those conversations. And I guess, um, prefer uh, the Personal Finance Society have the Education Champion program, um, where they will give you the slides to go into schools with and they will set that up for you. So, if that's something that you're passionate about, um, either contact me or contact them. There is a form on their page, um, where you can put your details in and someone get get in contact with you. But, there's lots of stuff that you can do, I guess. But, that's a again a really good message for people who maybe like yourself can go and champion that because I think yeah, definitely since I was at school things have improved but I just think it's a great profession and more people should know about it rather than thinking that you maybe you do need to just go down the typical routes of like you say doctors, investment bankers, lawyers, etc. Um, I don't think we've got long left. I think we could talk for so long and there's so long and there's so much more we could chat about but I do just want to ask kind of one closing question um for you. Um, what do you hope that people take away from your career journey? >> Um, oh, that's a hard question. One thing that people take away. Um, I guess the resilience is a big part of it that just don't let, you know, anything hold you back in terms of what you want to do. Um, and I guess just the importance of giving back as well because I think you've kind of said how far my career's come in such a short amount of time but I do think it is important to give back and I don't know if many advisers do and the ones that do all kind of work in a community of advisers that do give back and think it is important to do that. Um, so yeah, I would probably highlight that. >> Yeah, the things I picked up there were like I guess resilience, community, and just giving back. So I think they're some really strong um takeaways for people. But no, thank you so so much for coming on. This has been amazing and I just think you've what you what comes through you so strongly is like your journey and what you've done and the amazing things that you've achieved in I guess your career so far and you've given some really really strong messages to people that will be listening. So I just want to thank you again for taking the time to come on and um yeah, I think you're doing such an amazing bit to make the profession more accessible and visible and just really encouraging people to back themselves. So yeah, thank you so so much. >> Oh, thanks for having me and you've been a really good host as well. >> Good. Oh, thank you.