Warren, first of all, um, thank you for sitting down and talking with us today. I appreciate it. >> I It's always good to sit down. >> >> Yes, I find the same thing. Um, the last time we sat down and spoke with you, or I guess it was two times ago in March when we sat down with you to talk about what you were doing, um, with your charitable giving, you said that you were going to be watching and waiting, um, that you were kind of waiting to see what came out about Bill Gates and the the Epstein files and what had happened. You said you hadn't determined what you were going to do. Today, you put out a release saying that you will be increasing the amount of money that you give to the Susan Thompson Buffett Foundation, your three children's foundations, but there will be nothing given right now to the Gates Foundation. Is that decision? Is that >> But, but, uh, in interpreting that, uh, I would point out that, uh, I read a great deal, uh, since January 1st, in terms of what happened, uh, with Bill and and and and Epstein. And, uh, I read his remarks to Congress given under oath, uh, and I read his cross-examination, uh, and while it's distasteful or while he made mistakes, I made mistakes in our I hired all kinds of people or choosing friends and then finding out later that they that, uh, one way or another they weren't what I thought they were. And and so I found nothing in there that that, uh, was beyond what I could see I could picture myself, uh, doing. And and, uh, you know, he ended it and and, uh, uh, I've had situations where I made mistakes about people or people felt I made mistakes about me, but they you know, life goes on and and no one no one bats a thousand in the business of choosing people. >> You're talking about hiring decisions, maybe who you're associating yourself with. And there were certainly some questionable decisions on that that came up in the release of these files, but there was also other you know, personal information >> Yeah, no we and which he admitted to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, and there again I would say that uh you know, I would >> >> I've known some pretty wonderful people and I still know some wonderful people. I don't think they've made every decision. >> So why if if if that's your opinion on it, why are you no longer giving money to the Gates Foundation? >> I I I reevaluated my whole situation. It's just like I I've been doing since I was in my 20s and we've gotten married Susie and I and and we didn't really have any money, but we did know that we intended to live fine and we intended to have a family and but we did not have aspirations of you know, having six houses or a 500 foot yacht or anything of the sort. So, even then we talked about what we would do philanthropically. But my idea and conviction was that I would compound money at a better rate than society generally and that Susie would give it away better than 99.9% of the people that were giving it away and she would get involved personally with the gifts whereas I like to do things wholesale and she like to do things retail. So we we had a plan but we didn't have any money. And uh over time the money started to pile up, and she would say, "Are we rich yet?" And I would say, "No, but we're getting closer." But I was not in a hurry to do anything. We did some small things as we went along. I did I I thought the most important threat to mankind was was the was the nuclear bomb, and I so I had sort of grandiose plans in my mind about how I could change the probabilities of that happening, and I finally came to the conclusion after decades that uh I I could not have a 1/100 or 1/1000 of 1% chance of succeeding in that. And you know, it's nice to bet on long shots, but betting on things that are >> So you've changed your plans. >> So I changed plans. >> Why Why did you change your plans? >> Well, we changed plans because of what I said out here. The money be the money began to pile up. >> No, but you changed your you changed your plan now. In 2024, you said it was a lifetime pledge to the Gates Foundation. Now in 2026, you were saying that's not the case. What happened? >> Well, what happened was that I gave the Gates Foundation a great deal of money. >> Maybe $47 billion in total to the >> And and I had no And I thought that was a good decision. I think it was a decent decision. But I did not think my kids were in any way ready to uh give away vast sums of money. We'd started Susan and I started with them. I think we gave them We may have given them $100,000 each and uh >> This goes back 30 years at this point or longer? >> That's about right. Yeah. But they were growing children. I They had you know, they had children of their own by that time. But still uh And they they I don't think they were ready for it, and I certainly He to treat them all equally. So, that's always a problem as as as if they have unequal talents or something. Now, I can't turn them all into musicians and I can't turn them all into baseball players or anything. But, I really hoped in the charitable field that they would have common goals and be able to work out among themselves a way where with vast amounts of money that everybody felt there was plenty to do what they wanted to do. >> And you think that's the case today? >> Pardon? >> You think that's the case today? >> the probabilities of that are extraordinarily high. And now, is could something happen to this plan? Of course. I mean, I've got three children that are what, 72 and 71 and and look at my age. I mean, things can happen in this world that cause you to change uh to change. But, but I have no expectation of of change. I mean, as far as I'm as concerned, I we've reached the ideal point. We we kicked uh well, Susie out in 2004. So, it's been more of me kicking up the amounts that we received annually. And clearly, they feel happy with the job, too. I mean, there's no sense sticking people in a job that they they aren't fit for or that what they differ totally from you and your views. I mean, that that that it's I had different views in life than than my dad who I admired more than anybody in in the world. But, it still didn't mean that I joined his church or, you know, did did anything identically. And and he encouraged that view. He would he would quote to me Emerson, which where Emerson said something to the effect that the force in you is new in nature, you know, then saying, you know, you're one of a kind. Find out what that one is. And uh I think I found it very young by luck, uh circumstance, and and and pretty purposeful pursuit myself. Um my kids did not They behaved like like most kids say. They They flirted with a lot of different ideas. And uh uh but I I feel 100% now about what I have seen them do. Uh My son Howard just published a 100-page or so report and explaining what he's doing, why he's doing, what it's costing. >> for the Howard Buffett Foundation. >> and it's better than I could write. Uh he's He He has He has He has a sense of stewardship. And and and he also has enormous empathy for people he sees that don't have it as lucky as he is. >> So then is it fair to say 20 years ago in 2006 when you made this decision, you trusted the Gates Foundation more than your children, and now you trust your children more than the Gates Foundation? >> No, the amounts were different. I It's not to say that I trusted them different way, but but I felt they were capable of handling it. I would certainly not going to turn something over to my kids and then pull it back from them. I mean that that And the Gates Foundation >> >> as it turned out then earned far more money than they expected to do. They spend more money than anybody in the world I can think of. >> Yeah, they have an endowment of north of $90 billion I think at this point. >> around that figure. And and Bill has very substantial resources outside, which he intends to give and I believe it 100% I believe that they they will go there. Uh and I You know, I I really done the same thing as Bill in a certain sense. I've I'm except I'm when I put it in, I tell the the three children that that it is theirs and it's their responsibility to get it done well and and and uh and you may find this hard to believe, but it's true. I've never looked at their form 990s, which they file. I I I'm not judging each action as it takes place because you take it actions where you think there's only a 10% or 20% probability of success. It's not like investments. >> But what are your goals for the money? And you kind of intimated that the kids have similar goals as to what you have. >> There's a There are all kinds of ways in which the world is as unequal as you can possibly imagine. I mean, just imagine in health or the luck of birth or all those sort of things. And the the ultimate goal is to make life better for the people who get short straws. And there's a lot more people who get short straws than we'll ever be able to take care of and and my kids will have more insight into certain areas than I would. And I I have more insight in than than they do just because of different interests and exposure. But the one thing I'm convinced of is that they will be attempting to do something and they'll be better at it. And the probability is that they've got more years to live than I do. So and I mean, it really sneaks up on you when you get to be in the 70s or something like that. But I I I wouldn't I I can't think of a person in the world that 30 or under, for example, I would trust to do it. I think there's all kinds of brilliant people who are 30 or under and they may turn out to be leaders of society and and and terribly important writers or whatever it may be. But I I do think there's something to seeing how people behave under different circumstances. >> The The kids are going to come under pressure and probably already have from a long list of people who think that they should fund their ideas. I I saw something today on on X that Brad Gerstner put out suggesting that you give the money to Trump accounts, that there are other great things to do. What do you say to the lots and lots of people who will say this is where you should put that money or what do you think they should say? >> If you take 8 billion people in the world and feel that everybody should have an equal chance, I mean, you could you could spend that. Um a thousand dollars or ten thousand dollars and you know, and to solve everybody's problem. You You're never going to solve everybody's problems. The idea of solving a solving a a societal problem, which is what I started out as, with with a nuclear weapon. I mean, everybody who worked on a nuclear weapon regretted the fact that they had to put together something like that, the most brilliant people in the world, but they never figured out how to put the olive back in the bottle. And uh you know, that that is not something that society in the first couple hundred million years of existence or a couple million. >> Do any of those plans though, like the Trump accounts, appeal to you? Do you think they appeal to the kids? Do you Or do you just leave it to the kids and say you can do what you want? >> to the kids, but I do have this provision uh in my will, not in these gifts that I'm giving now, but in the the bulk of my fortune is likely to be left upon my death, even though I'm stepping up the >> Yeah, I will I will say right now it's a hundred and forty billion dollars that you have left based on yesterday's closing stock price in terms of the class A shares you have left. If the money you gave out this year is $6 billion. >> Yeah, it'll have to go up. >> Right, it's $17.5 billion at least annually, and that's assuming that Berkshire doesn't go up from here. If you If you want this to be given out in 8 years. >> assumption. It's an assumption. I mean, that is not a realistic assumption. >> And to give $17.5 billion away annually? >> The an investment produces nothing. >> Oh, correct. So >> I get my 5% Treasury bills, you know, I >> Right, how how much did you have when you started making these donations in 2006? We were talking about less than $100 billion at that point, right? >> So, you've given away $67 billion, and now you have $140 billion left to give as of today. >> Right. >> That's one thing I understand. >> >> I mean, I don't understand all these other things, but and >> But $17.5 billion, even if it weren't to go up, is more money than anybody is giving away right now. Did the Gates Foundation give away what, $8 billion last year? >> Yeah, that's That's about right. And uh >> That's a lot of >> did They did it employing, you know, a few thousand people, which almost any foundation would that had that kind of money, and and uh I I'm impressed by the fact that my kids really want to give the money away rather than do other things with it as they go along. So, they >> You mean, rather than spend it on themselves, they give it >> buildings or anything of the sort. >> Right. >> No. When they're they don't need more help as they go along, but I I think uh I think the foundations employ something between There's three of them now. >> Four of them, if with the STB Foundation. >> STB. Uh well, let's take the kids first, though, that because they're they make the total decision as to what they're doing, and and they have between 11 and 25 employees, and and >> Total between the three foundations? Each, okay. >> Yeah. And uh and they have expense ratios far below that of institutions that are much better known than >> Expense ratios closer to 1% or less. >> They've shown that they're not regarding it as play money. >> Right. Right, meaning that the bulk almost everything they get goes back out the door. >> Well, it it it really all goes out the door eventually, but yeah. Yeah, they they're not going to build, you know, huge home office buildings or hold conferences at esoteric places and all kinds of things. You know, uh there's nothing wrong with doing that. I mean, but the important thing is whether people that have, you know, 100 times what they need and don't pass it along to somebody else for the next generation. And and in in many parts of the world they've been doing that for thousands of years. >> Yeah, you're not a big fan of bureaucracy. Berkshire Hathaway was run here in this office with 25 people or something >> 25 people and and and we probably went up we probably grew in size 10 for 1 before we added the last two or three. >> Mhm. Um before we move on, does does Bill Gates know about this? When we spoke with you in March, you said you had not spoken with him since any of these allegations started coming out. He said the same thing last month in in in June when he sat down with his congressional testimony that he had not spoken with you since January. Have you spoken with him since and does this come as a surprise to him? >> No, it it No, it does not come as a surprise and and me uh he gave my alma mater I don't know, three weeks ago or I I kind of lose track on time, but certainly not three months, but three uh since we talked. And uh we spent 3 hours talking together, and and uh and he's he he intends to call me. He's the one that initiates calls just generally, and and uh uh as you can see, I'm I'm available anytime, but uh uh he's he's uh much more organized than I am, and uh uh but he's already proposed another one, and and and and uh >> Another meeting? >> Yeah, and and he is we have had an enormous number of good times together since we met uh whatever it was, what was 1991, and he's always done more than his share, always more than his share. You don't see me doing the planning or the >> In the friendship, you mean? >> Yeah, it it's it's been a wonderful friendship. And uh and Bill and I are interested in enough things that overlap that we find plenty to talk about, and then each of us has got his own specialty to some extent. >> But you told him three three weeks ago or so when you met him that you would not be making any more donations to the Gates Foundation? >> Yeah, I may have even may have even meant it. I can't tell you exactly what I told him, but but but at some point I had read the I had read what Congress came up with, I'd read everything, and and all I can say is he you know, I've I don't know whether I've done dumb or things, but I've done things I've just done many dumb things in life. I mean, that is all I have to do is look at our portfolio. I mean four out of five of our at least four out of five of of the decisions I've made have not been anything out of the ordinary. >> But he was okay when you told him this was okay. >> Yeah. >> So, he's on board. None of this is new to him. >> Bill, unlike me, uh more or less I think wants it to end when when he dies. And of course he doesn't know >> His foundation. >> Uh the Gates Foundation. Whereas uh I hope that my kids live a lot longer than than I do. And I hope all three participate. And I think all three will be better off for doing that. But then that's not a decision that was made uh well when Susie and I started giving them I think we moved it up to maybe 30 million a year. And that >> To the kids' foundations? >> No, actually to >> Oh. >> to but to their father. She I don't remember exact figures at all. But uh but we gave it to them when we were 99% sure that that they would Well, we do they they were willing and and and in some cases in a certain way eager to do things for other people. They They've They've had a good life. >> Yeah. >> They haven't They haven't Well, they've followed that rule that somebody told me a long time ago, but which I give credit for but think of on myself, which is that if you're the child of some very rich family that you should have enough you should be given enough so to do uh to do the to to do something but not enough to do nothing. >> Right. >> And that's that's exactly what's been going on at an increased scale. >> But just >> to step it up now because you know, I've at my age you know, it the probabilities really get against me. So, the the last will I wrote is is very likely to be my final will, whereas the wills that I was writing when I was 30 or 40 or 50, I knew they would change. >> Right. Let's talk about that. The other thing that you're announcing in this is that you would like to see the money go out at an expedited and and the shares go out at an expedited rate. To this point, it kind of been 10 years after your death, you thought the shares would all be dispersed to charity. Um now you're saying that you would like all of those shares to be dispersed 8 years from now by the end of uh 2034. >> Yeah. >> What What What changed your mind on that and what does that mean? >> Well, it certainly means that I I had two purposes in in in in all of Berkshire and and particularly with essentially 100% of my money in in Berkshire. I you know, that's my painting. And and I I like the painting. I like the people associated with it and it's been refined over time. You know, I've added an apple over here or something. And and uh uh and I don't think I don't know of 10 people in the United States that I would trust to hand that over to. I don't >> Your company? You're You're talking your company that you're talking about. >> I don't know of five people. And I know a lot of people. And and and I have a very high standard in terms of what I'm looking for in in in in that person. And clearly we've we've found him uh with Greg Abel. So, and that becomes more evident by the day. Even this year there's been added things that So >> So, you don't think you need to hold on to the shares or have your family have voting power over those shares for as long because you think Greg Abel is >> He is the choice. The only question is is he's not immortal either. You know, I mean you always have this mortality question, you know, and nobody gets away from it. I mean it it people can be in marvelous health or seem like it and you know, they Who died the other day? Lindsey Graham? 71 or something. So there's an enormous variety and variation from from being lucky to then not being lucky and and uh I've That's that's the bet I make with Greg. I do not have a list of 10. I mean it isn't I don't have 10 kids either, but but but even I don't have a list of three. >> In terms of who you would trust the company to at this point. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> No, I've got directors that I trust to be imbued with a the they like the concept of Berkshire Hathaway. They would like to keep it going. So I've got the right group. That's the intermediary in in in in making that choice. But uh and then things don't always work out perfectly in the world. >> So your your your hope is that the shares will be dispersed by the end of 2034, just over 8 years from now, 8 and 1/2 years from now. But I take it if if you're not here and the kids are the one making the choices, you would leave it to their decision making at that point? >> Yeah, and eight eight years from now you know, my my daughter will be 80 very close to 81. You know, another one will be 70 uh and it's not just a question of mortality, it's a question of keeping your marbles too, you know, and and >> >> Have they heard you say it like this? >> Well, well, I I mean I'm losing marbles at this point. I I I accumulated marbles for a longer time than I deserved. And that's just a matter of luck. I mean I I'm I've seen so many managers of our companies that uh Well, I think I mentioned it in a few annual reports annual meetings. I mean, we had guys cutting out paper dolls and there's you know, and their assistants covering for them. >> Okay, just to to clarify at this point, you are saying this of your right mind while you're making these decisions, right? >> I hope so. But actually, I wrote the will >> Oh, a couple of years ago. >> Yeah. And I will not knowingly I mean, I will not change that will except for extremely important decisions because there's no question that I had my marbles when I wrote it. >> Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what happens now because you've talked about how this is really your children making the decisions, but in the announcement that you're putting out now, you increased each of your children's foundations the amount you're giving them by about 50%. >> Yeah, but for what we gave them last year, the Susan Thompson Foundation. >> But it's the Susan Thompson Buffett Foundation that really is seeing the outsized gains in what they're going to be giving away. Their their the amount of shares they received this year is tenfold what it was last year. Basically, they're getting all the money that would have gone to the Gates Foundation. >> Well, they're they're getting all the money that would have gone to the Susan Thompson Buffett Foundation for >> And and and then some. >> would have survived. >> Right, and then some. But basically, the payout they're going to be getting this year in terms of what they can disburse is 4.5 billion dollars. That's how much the Gates Foundation got last year. Um why so much more to the STB Foundation than the other three foundations, relatively speaking? Everybody gets more, but but why that outsized amount? >> Foundation is what I would say totally my wife would have first wife would have created and I would have approved of it. I mean, we were on the same page in all kinds of questions that aren't even questions anymore in terms of the of women's rights and civil rights. I mean, we were we were in sync. That Now, she she took an interest in listening to everybody's story. That would be the last thing in the world I >> >> I would want to do. She She She saw every individual as an individual, but she also saw them as a group. I I saw them as a group. And I I I had other things that fascinated me more. >> This money that goes through, is this what you will anticipate seeing from from this point on? In in in years past at Thanksgiving, you've given additional disbursements to the three kids' foundations. Do you plan to do that again this year? >> Uh Yeah, I'm almost sure I will, but it's but regardless, the other the other goes on. You know, I mean, if I You know, I could I'm I'm more probable to die before Thanksgiving than any of my three children or or and probably the probability of all three combined, but but uh Uh I I I I I also enjoy explaining why I take actions. Just like I do in the annual report on Berkshire. I I I I've got a didactic streak, which my partner Charlie Munger had. And uh It To us uh the money wasn't Well, the money was important in terms of what it could actually do for other people. It wasn't important for what it could do for me. I I have not denied myself anything in life. >> Um If something happens that you're not here to make these decisions, does it revert to what you talked about last year in your will, where there is a new foundation that is created. >> a new foundation. And the three kids are in charge. It has to be to be It does have slight variations. One being unanimous consent among the three for anything they do. >> Does the STB foundation or the kids foundations, do they have to spend the money in this fiscal year as was required of the Gates Foundation or is this something where they can take their time and make their plans? >> know my views on it, but they can do They can do what they want, but if they if their wants get away from the basic principles far enough, you look at it again, but that isn't going to happen. >> Warren, you've spent most of your adult life thinking about philanthropy. At How have your views changed over time? What would you like to see happen with this? Um I I think about the Giving Pledge and what you all did. What's What's your perspective at this point? >> I have is that I out of eight billion people, you know, I may be one of the 10 luckiest in the world. And so I've been lucky and healthy to get to 95. I've been lucky in that the field that intrigued me and where I had some natural ability happened to be one that paid off in a way that would nothing paid off like it. I've I've been a great violin player than you know, anything else. Uh I It requires more talent than I have, but but a different form of talent and and fortunately, I got exposed partly accidentally uh to what I liked to do very early on. And that was just an accident. If my father had been a plumber, I would not have I would not have had the same advantage I had. So I was incredibly lucky. And uh and then as life has gone along, I have seen how unbelievably uh unlucky some people have been. And it is like I mean, you know, we You know, we had accidents with with with the kids when they were young and and all kinds of things can happen. And they just didn't happen to us. >> All right, let's talk about a few other things while we have you >> Yeah. >> here. Is there more you want to say? >> But the idea the whole idea of kings and queens and everything where you pass along for thousands of years the ability to live in any manner you wish, you know, while you say let them eat cake to the rest. It it That is that is not the way the system should would be if I had my way of designing a world. And I can't I can't change the design of the world, but I can make I can nibble at the edges. >> And and those are the same values that your wife Astrid and your kids all have, too? >> 100% and I'm glad you mentioned Astrid because she feels she's she's extreme in this view as as you can imagine and she she's actually experienced more hardship in life than either Susie or I did because she was she's Latvian and you know, and came over in a boat and Ellis Island and and uh didn't know who she was being assigned to, lived in foster homes, all kinds of things. So, the the accidents of birth are just so extreme. And I've seen people that use those accidents to justify positions that are just ridiculous in my view. And uh uh and that's the reason for encouraging philanthropy. You can't mandate it. It doesn't It isn't plausible if you mandate it, but uh people most people are a combination you know, of lots of good instincts and lots of not-so-good instincts, and including me. And uh the If you do things that appeal to their better instincts, they they they respond sometimes. >> And by the way, your your point with the Giving Pledge, when you founded that with Bill and Melinda Gates, was to encourage people to give to anything, but not to try and tell them what to do with their money. >> Exactly. Exactly. And and uh and also decide when they would do it. I mean, a family that's got a family farm they've had for 100 years and they're uh you know, within the family, they've all worked out and everything. They're going to have a different view toward capital. They're all They're all going to work hard. Uh but they're just going to They're going to have a whole different view to some guy that is is is is writing options on Wall Street. >> Yeah. Okay, let's talk about a few other things um that have happened maybe since we got the chance to sit down last in May. The first that I can think of is the massive position that Berkshire has has developed and grown in in Alphabet and Google shares. Um That's something that a lot of people have looked at and said, "Okay, this is Greg's mark on how he's going to be changing the portfolio." How did the Alphabet position come along? >> I initiated it, but I mean, I I normally wouldn't give you that answer on something like that, but I will because it it But we I am not doing anything that he doesn't approve of. He's not doing anything I don't approve of. We we talk all all time. He's you know, he's uh uh Well, every day. I mean, and and But, he is the decider. And uh getting back to um Alphabet or Google, uh it's probably number five or six. >> Well, I thought it was number three if you consider the $10 billion private placement that would go along with that because that would put it north of $31 billion. >> Yeah, but we we we've got we've got the Burlington Northern Railroad, which is certainly worth far more money than that. >> Okay, so you're count you're counting fully owned companies as well. >> I mean, we are always making the choice between what whether we'll buy marketable securities or the company. We look at it the same way. There's There are some minor exceptions to that. We can't We can't set dividend policy, for example, if we don't own it. But, the chances of those being material that The important thing is to buy a good business and to buy it on the right terms and then get the right person to run it. >> Okay, but you've quickly grown a north of $30 billion investment in in Alphabet. That puts it in terms of those companies that you own pieces of behind only Apple and American Express So, Coca-Cola would be smaller, Bank of America would be smaller. Okay. >> But, but but if you take Coca-Cola, which we've owned you know, 45 years, whatever it may be. Uh You know, we we we don't have a thing to do with running that business. And but, it's a very good business. And I would When I say a very good business, I mean something that you can expect to own earn high returns on capital over a long period of time. Now, the question is, when you get into Google, is or any of the AI companies, you're putting out a huge amounts of money, and I can put huge amounts of money in the government bonds and get, you know, 20 or 30 or 40 billion dollars a year in terms of payments from them. Uh so, a good business is one that earns a lot more than the than than and has prospects of continuing to earn a lot more than the the returns on on uh on essentially riskless investments, which you could define as Treasuries. But, if you take something like American Express, you know, there are most of the banks earn 13 14% on on on capital. Uh if I asked everybody to guess uh what American Express would get, they would they would they would come up with some figure similar, but it's so different that it earns 30% plus on capital and does not incur more risk in doing so than the banks that earn 13 or 14%, and the the trick in life is to find them in investing is to find businesses that are going to earn high returns on capital for an extended period of time, and that's what happened with with Berkshire for a long period of time. Long period of time gets to be very important because those doubles later on are the of of very good numbers. But, Charlie Charlie Munger, my my partner for many for decades, he just he just pounded the idea that it it wasn't a good business just because it it was doing sexy things or whatever it might be. But if it wasn't earning real cash that it would it would or be expected to do it in a very short period of time and and just be able to distribute it if it wanted to. Better yet if it could re-employ it as a business, it was even better. The one that had had the ability to earn high returns but you couldn't deploy the excess capital of those returns. >> Okay, let me ask you though. Forever people have thought of you as somebody who doesn't invest in technology. And by the way, you've described yourself as somebody who doesn't invest in technology. Obviously, the biggest position in the Berkshire portfolio is Apple. A position that you put on, but at the time you called that a consumer company. Google you just called an AI company. So, what happened? >> Google The real question with Google and all of its competitors now is they're they're all laying out hundreds of billions. I mean, that >> They're big cap expend the biggest >> Yeah, and that's and that's real money. I mean, if our railroad were to lay out 300 million or billion or 200 billion, you know, that that kind of money wasn't even put in the railroad business, you know, in terms of developing it. So, and and they are That's the game they're they're they're playing now. They won't play that game with with with uh computer software. >> So, when they were asset light, you didn't like them and the markets loved them. Now that they are >> a mistake. >> spending heavily on capex, a lot of shareholders don't like them as much because they don't >> they're more likely to be a winner based on their record than than probably 90% of or 95% will get merchandised through Wall Street. Because Wall Street is it's the only thing sold something. >> Mhm. >> And uh And I can't recall a report on Wall Street that really gets into the internal rates of return that the business is actually earning. That What What's more important what a business is earning, but they ask all these questions about what will happen next quarter or you know, or it's just it's ridiculous, but you know, investing is is coming up with Well, the probably this close to the most successful long-term investor was was was Rockefeller. And but look at what oil and gas has done over 150 for a couple of hundred years. So, he kept compounding at a very good rate. Not as good a rate as Geico would have achieved in his early years cuz it's easier to do when you're small. You got You got to do it when you're large is You got the whole world looking at you trying to You know, how come those guys are doing it and we're not doing it? >> Why do you like Alphabet above all others and what made you initiate this position? What was the >> Eureka moment? >> I I would say that uh I don't like it as well as it at least four or five other businesses that we own. >> Other than Apple, the railroad >> Well, we have >> American Express. >> Yeah, I'm going to get the whole priority, but uh uh >> And of course you like it enough to make it a huge position. >> that way. Yeah. I mean, Berkshire earned high returns on capital without without I'm I'm not talking about using the tricks of leverage or that sort of thing. I'm I don't want to uh >> But I'm talking about why Alphabet versus the other uh Magnificent Seven or the other, you know, hyperscalers who are doing the same thing, spending a lot of money. Amazon, Microsoft, whoever it may be to try and win in this position of AI. >> Well, I don't want to sit around knocking the others. They don't have any choice. You know >> To spend like this, you mean? >> Yeah, they're now playing a game in many cases where they or some cases where they're playing a game they don't want to play. IBM would have loved it if they just kept playing the game that IBM was playing in the '30s and the '40s and the '50s and the '60s. You know, and then somebody came along with and said, "We'll get a better result for you." achieving the objective of all the customers you have cuz that's all you're going to have is either have happy customers you don't have customers over time. And uh The customer's not dumb. Wall Street can be very dumb. And in terms of they they can dream. But a guy with a grocery store can't dream. I mean, I I worked in my grandfather's grocery store and we saw with Well, we had one store in 1869 and we had one store in 1969. And and other people were earning high returns on capital. Uh some on a national scale. A&P, which people don't associate with with anymore. In the 1930s, I mean, they were they were number one and I mean number one of trust busters in in in in Washington. And they they they They had a very very very good hand. And that hand disappeared. >> So, it's a different game. Um and you like this game, you understand this game more than you understood the game they were playing before. Is that fair to say? >> there's all kinds of games I don't understand, sure. >> But this game >> I Why why Why Why should I expect to make money in all kinds of things I don't understand? >> Mhm. >> And >> But that's what I'm getting at. What do you understand about this game at this point? Because most people would say he's never going to buy any technology stocks. And I think you've said the same thing yourself in the past. >> Yeah, but I have I've done it. And actually one of my most successful companies I was associated with court doctor 1958. Right. We started a company called Data Documents thing. We started Data Documents because a a couple fellows of mine read in the paper that IBM had subtly had a trust suit by divesting they had to divest 50% of the capacity of what was their best business. And everybody knew it was their best business. Now, it so happens it ran out after 10 or 15 years. And then I knew some of the people that caused it to run out. But if you have a wonderful business, you are going to be subject to attack. So you it's not a question of whether it's it was wonderful yesterday. It's it's the question is how long is it going to be wonderful? >> But that's what I think I love. Um people can try and pigeonhole you and say they know who you are and what you do. To me it looks like you're 95 turning 96 next month and you are still changing and following the game. >> Well, yeah, but it's easier for me. If somebody came along uh Well, I'm just trying to think of what about you but a better candy. Uh that would have more predictive value to me than if they came along and had a better way of of uh doing something that 100 of their competitors would sneak in the in the plant at night to see how exactly how they got it all done. >> Um let's talk about your largest position, Apple. Um you told us that you were thrilled with everything that Tim Cook had done. I I don't know how well you know John Turnus at this point or what you you of the company's doing. You still have a lot of faith in Apple? >> Well, I there there was no move they could make that would replace Tim that I would have liked. >> >> That I mean if you know, if you got somebody, you know, Stradivarius playing the violin for you, yeah. I mean, don't don't spend the next 300 years looking for another one. I mean, you've got one already. And uh it it and of course Wall Street thrives on the idea that convincing you that that that if you just listen to them, they've got something that nobody else has. Well, which can't be true. I mean, it's it's it's ridiculous. But uh but it works because well, in general, it works because they America's been a wonderful place to invest money. And the Dow industrials went high. When I bought my first stock, it just crossed 100, 100. And now it's 52,000 or something. And you've got dividends in between and all kind Well, I mean, the village idiot could have made it from that point forward. And >> >> uh so I've been in the right game. If I'd been in in in wheat speculation, I mean, wheat wheat wheat's gone from, you know, I don't know where it's gone from $3 to $5 over something over a 200 years. And uh uh it it it's a pretty it's a very simple business as long as you keep remembering that it's simple and that making it complicated can Well, the the it's just crazy. At that point, you're gambling. >> But do you still like Apple? >> people's enthusiasm for gambling is enormous. >> You've talked about that over the last many years, probably since COVID. Um but you still like Apple. Back to the point. >> Yeah. And I know more about Apple than I knew many years ago, but but on the other hand, if you're if you're Apple, you've got very very smart people all over the world shooting and trying to figure out how to make sure that that Apple's future the future is as bright as it is in the past. And look at look at the car companies. I mean, Henry Ford owned the car business for for 20 or 25 years and he he did the vertically integrated like you cannot believe. He got it drove costs down. He got them cost of Model T down I think to $285 and he always was decreasing prices while increasing wages. >> Right. >> So, he was he was but he also was a little nuts in some ways and and that did him in finally when he when he turned over the Model A and General Motors just came racing by and and my friend Charlie Munger thought that General Motors was the was going to be the the dominant company. Who could imagine attacking their dealer fleet and everything they had going for them and and uh you know, >> >> you've always got somebody shooting at you. >> Uh to that point, Apple brought a lawsuit against OpenAI just last Friday night uh just last week. And basically accused OpenAI of trying to steal trade secrets. Um >> How do you say most most companies would love to try to steal trade secrets. They wouldn't love getting caught, but if you really could dig deep in the hearts of managers, they they'd like to steal secrets. >> >> Wouldn't you? I mean, if you had a business and you were struggling along, and the guy next door was making money. I I I had a half interest in it. Sinclair filling station at 30th and Radigan in Omaha when I was in my early 20s and and I been to business school and knew all these things. The guy next door had the filling station and he was pumping 30,000 barrels uh 30,000 gallons a month and we were pumping 15,000 gallons a month. So, I said, "We're going to wipe this guy off the face of the earth." And you know, a couple of years later we were selling 15,000 and he was selling 30,000 and we gave up and we closed up and he I think he's still operating. It's People are playing for keeps in business. >> Yeah. Um we we talked about Coca-Cola briefly, um the long-time position you've held for more than 45 years. There is a major lawsuit Yeah. with the government that could look at action, I believe, going all the way back to 1996 with Coca-Cola. The government the IRS has said that they owe them um >> 20 >> 20 billion dollars roughly. >> of which they paid >> I think they put 10 billion or so something in there. >> 10 billion. >> Right. But we we're going to hear about whether the activities and this has to do with overseas um their overseas business just some of the accounting that goes back and forth. Coca-Cola says that they thought they had an agreement in 1996 that stood with how they should behave. The government's now looking for more money and saying that's not the case. It's not just Coca-Cola that's riding on this. So, there's a lot of other American businesses who are doing the same thing. >> huge number which is why the derivative effects of the the suit could be the biggest in American history. >> What do you think of this? And with the understanding that you are a Coca-Cola shareholder, a large Coca-Cola shareholder. Was this an overzealous government looking for ways to raise more money? Was this a company that performed badly or that behaved badly? >> I'm I'm the one you know I've got an organ that applies to it. You know so you know that's why we have courts. >> Yeah. So you'll wait and see what happens with it. I take it you're watching this closely. >> Paying the extra money won't break Coca-Cola any more than anything I can think of would break Berkshire. I mean I I look at all I think do is think about the downside. The upside will take care of itself. And >> Uh we also have a new FOMC chairman, Kevin Warsh, who is taking a look at the economy. This week he's going to be or he is speaking to in in front of Congress. A lot of questions about what he'll do with the markets. What he'll do with interest rates and what that in turn means for the markets. You in the past have spoken about how interest rates are gravity and it determines where stock market prices are headed. So what what do you think happens? What are you betting? >> I don't know what he'll do but I I would say that that job is so complicated that I think the other day he was quoted as saying you know that they have 950 economists when they could do 110. Yeah I mean I admire him for taking on the job. I think he will do the best he can at achieving the job he was assigned to do which is you know 2% inflation and well well maintaining maximum employment. And I I my guess is that that just like some of the others that have preceded him, not all of them, but but he would read that every morning. You know I mean the >> The dual mandate of the Fed. >> The dual mandate. And he doesn't he he knows he can't be perfect at it. And just like I know I couldn't be perfect with taking people's money and earning super returns on it. But I'm my guess is that people were were right in the in in realizing that I cared about what happened to their money. >> Mhm. >> And I I would say that the White House he cares about the country. >> Okay. >> And I think that's been true of a good many. It doesn't mean their decisions are always great. But cuz sometimes the decisions are so tough. I mean, imagine Paul Volcker getting you know, death threats all the time and uh And others just think they know more than they do. >> But you think Kevin knows a lot and is a >> he's a very Yeah, I think he was a good choice. >> Okay. >> Which probably means the president will be mad. >> >> Future presidents will be mad at him because future presidents are looking the next election and he's not supposed to be looking at the next election. >> Right. You obviously don't come out and make calls on where the market's headed at any point in time, but you do make calls on market behavior and what makes sense to you and what doesn't. Do you think the markets make sense to you when there's so much riding on AI? Earnings have been very strong. Um the consumer looks like it's held in to this point, but how do you view it? Well, I think there are there are times when opportunities are just thrown at you so fast you can't You know, it's unbelievable. And then there's other times when you're very very lucky if you find one thing in a couple of years and and uh It it should always be that the the latter is what prevails, but but since humans love to gamble so much, there's more money in in actually cultivating gamblers than there are cultivating investors. If If somebody bought Berkshire 40 years you know, 50 years ago, a guy would have made one commission. And And he should spend the rest of his time telling the client don't do anything with it. And that's just not the way uh we can't expect that of humans. Uh but every now and then you do find people who that I mean you find people who behave far better than other other people. >> Fair to say though it's tougher to find values or find >> It's tougher to find values when everybody is preferring gambling. >> Yeah. >> And from the standpoint of the state, I mean we have discussed this but from the standpoint of the state it's it's sort of disgusting because the state needs money for all kinds of things, roads, schools, you name it. And they have found that they can clip people who are buying nothing but hope. Selling them a payout something with a payout ratio of 60% or something like that. And uh And if they weren't doing that, they'd have to have the income tax higher. And it's a cynical sort of activity and I think the less you get cynicism between the governing body and and the people they govern by. You know, you don't want to you don't want people to be cynical about their system. But there's times when the systems says >> >> you know, just be as cynical as you want because this is what I'm going to do, baby. >> >> Uh let's go back very quickly. You you touched on this. Part of the reason that you want the shares given out over the next 8 years is because you want your kids making these decisions. But the other part is that you don't feel like you necessarily have to hold on to these voting shares of Berkshire as it for as long because you have faith in Greg. >> Yeah, exactly. And if we didn't If we didn't have faith, well part of the reason I'm around is because we didn't have a sufficient the faith in anybody. Uh And we And we know all kinds of people, but I mean, if you were talking about Tom Murphy, I mean, if I could have hired Tom Murphy, but the trouble was they were all older. And uh all my friends were pretty much older, so I I I I didn't It wasn't like I was in college and I could see when they had it and, you know, who was writing crib sheets on their on their crib answers on their shoulder on their short cuffs. >> But you feel that way with Greg. >> I I feel 100% that way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I've seen him in a lot of situations. A lot of situations. I felt that way with Charlie. I felt that way with Tom Murphy, and you know, I mean, you But you you know, nobody nobody expects you to pick up you know, 25 husbands and have them all work out. I mean, Yeah. Just finding one is pretty tough. I mean, there's the right sort. >> Yeah. >> And then you make mistakes. >> Warren, how are you feeling today? >> Well, I you know, I broke a leg. >> What happened? >> A few weeks ago, so uh which is really, you know, I've been very lucky on that sort of thing. I haven't broken a leg in in my life until now, but but uh uh I I I feel good. I'm I'm I'm glad I was born. >> Yeah. >> And I'm glad I wasn't born in some other country and I was glad glad that and actually that I wasn't born female. And uh I mean, all kinds of things. I mean, I I really won the lottery You know, I came out. And lot of think they won the lottery. If they got a trust fund set up one that takes care of them for their whole life and you know, five generations thereafter, but but I just wasn't raised that way and I think it's a good thing I wasn't and I haven't raised the kids that way or or more important Susan didn't raise them that way. >> Well, I want to thank you for your time today. >> Oh, thank you. >> I appreciate it. >> And we're listening to business. >> >> Thank you.