Hi everyone, as everyone joins us and the community is is gathering in progress. This is a very exciting interview for me because Julie K. Brown is really the journalist who single-handedly really broke the Jeffrey Epstein story and she is part of the Miami Herald's investigative team as a former local reporter in Miami. I have so much respect for the Miami Herald and some of the great reporters there, but Julie won multiple journalism awards including a George Polk Award. She's also a member of the Herald's 2022 Pulitzer Prize winning team that broke the story or actually for the coverage. She didn't break it. Sadly, this was a horrific news event, the Surfside condo collapse. Um, anyway, so Julie has been a very hard person for us to book. She's very busy and she also wrote a book in 2021 called Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein story, which I am going to read Julie because I think it could be so helpful in us understanding really the genesis of the Jeffrey Epstein story. Anyway, thanks so much for being here. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm surviving. I got a little rest this weekend. It was the first weekend since before Christmas that I actually didn't work. Wow. Well, we are very grateful for your dedication and commitment Julie and I think on behalf of so many people who are grateful to you for breaking this Jeffrey Epstein story. I'm curious how you feel about how the story has evolved. You broke it in 2018, I believe. 2017, 2018. So, it has been obviously eight eight or nine years since this story first surfaced. I'm just curious as a reporter and a journalist Julie, how difficult this story was to break and why you think it took so long for the mainstream media to report on this? Well, you you know, it's sort of a technicality, but I didn't break the story because it had been written everybody at least in some court journalism circles knew about Jeffrey Epstein and the fact that he had been accused of molesting and sexually assaulting a lot of girls and that he had basically gotten a slap on the wrist plea deal. Right. Even though that had been written about to me, this the reasons that that happened, it's obviously to me was a huge failure on the part of the criminal justice system when you have a sex predator of children who is such at the time I wrote the story, he was out there. You know, he was free and he was still as we now know, harming children. And so, my goal at the time was to look at how this happened. Where was the breakdown? Was there someone who, you know, had the fix in? Someone who was powerful who let him off the hook. And and I just thought it was a good time to take a new look at it like a cold case detective would and to also focus by the time I then decided to reopen the case these women, these victims who were, you know, 13, 14, 15 years old were now in their late 20s and early 30s. And Donald Trump became president right around this time and ironically as I was already looking at this story, he nominated Alexander Acosta to be his labor secretary and I knew at the time of course that he was the very person who had let this man off the hook. And so, that's where I started looking at this case. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what happened in 2008 because it wasn't widely known. Someone just pointed out that uh that unbeknownst to me, the host name, he had a dinner for Prince Andrew as I'm sure you know and invited some journalists prior to the royal wedding and many of us really weren't very familiar with him because so much of it had gone under the radar. Alex Acosta had given him this sweet deal. He had hired PR people to keep his name out of the press. So, his earlier transactions weren't really um Yeah, hi everyone. They're asking me about this. We're not really that well known to the general public at least in a way that it did after you wrote your expose. As to to people like you who sort of got invited to things that he he was either hosting or he attended. The deal, the sweetheart deal that he scored um was by design to limit the look of what he did. In other He only on paper was charged with soliciting uh someone under age, just one person. Right. So, that was by design. His lawyers were very shrewd and they made it look as though what he committed was was not as horrific as we later learned it turned out to be. Um You also had a team, I I understand now of enablers like um you know, the the publicist who invited George Stephanopoulos and other very legitimate journalists to this event for Prince Andrew prior to Kate Middleton and and uh the you know, Prince William's wedding kind of ostensibly to talk about the wedding, right? And to try to get an interview with Prince Andrew, which was who was the only person from the royal family who would actually speak to the press at the time. Um you know, she was very she wasn't transparent about where this party was and the host and all that stuff. So, I think it was part of kind of this whole circle of people who were protecting Jeffrey Epstein in a way. Obviously, I think we should have done more due diligence and found out more about who he was and you know, the sweetheart deal, but it was very much covered up and underplayed in the national media. And especially in New York. I think it you know, this was a story um I mean to be honest with you, the New York Times did not cover it in this way. Right. You know, I went back and looked at the coverage at the time I took it up and it was, you know, of course, you know, the court proceedings that happened and as I said, what happened on paper was covered, but they had a journalist that was that were working for for them at the time, Thomas Landon and he had written some very positive stories about Epstein. Yeah. It was, you know, it was something again, he was he had a lot of money, so he was able to hire Howard Rubenstein now I learned and all these people who kind of covered up his actions. You know, a couple people in the chat asking me why I went and I think, you know, back then I guess it was 2010. I think a number of people thought it was just an opportunity to talk to Prince Andrew and obviously if we had known what was going on, we never would have attended. Well, and here's the thing that I explain to people because there's a lot of names that are caught up in these files. There's a big difference between seeing a name one or two times in these files and seeing a name thousands of times in the file. You know, there are plenty of people as I said that went to events that he he attended and you know, they had their picture taken and he's like maybe sitting down the table from them or something. But then you don't hear their names again, you know, associated with them. So, I think that you have to weigh, you know, the situation and weigh how many times that person was for example emailing them. I don't know of any emails between Jeffrey Epstein. So, I don't think you were in that category of I asked the person who who invited me. I said, I don't know do I even know who this person is when when I asked her who was the host. So, anyway, but but it did take and and maybe you can talk a little bit more about why the national media and how many people were working behind the scenes to protect him from the period of time of 2000 was it 2008 in Florida and Alex Acosta kind of figuring out that sweetheart deal to really 10 years later Julie when you were able to really I you say you didn't break the story, which is true, but you really did give the first look at how insidious and dangerous and illegal and corrupt and widespread Jeffrey Epstein's actions were. Right. Well, you know, the the thing with this case is um you know, he didn't just do this with the media. I mean, he hired private investigators that went, you know, attacked the police chief who was trying to um really bring him to justice, you know, trying to prosecute him. He somehow got to the state attorney. He was able I just did very recently, exactly how he did this because he was able to find the soft spot or something that he knew that whoever it was, whether it was a lawyer, someone in law enforcement, anybody, he would find something that he could either get on them or that he could help them with. And he was just very adept at being able to manipulate people. And that's what happened in Florida. He was able to hire the best lawyers and they really turned up the heat on everyone, the the state prosecutors, the federal prosecutors, the police chief. I mean, it just kept going on and on and that's what my story was. My story was, this is how it happened and you can see, if you look at their emails, the trajectory. Each time they said, "Okay, well, we're going to throw the book at him. We're going to put him in state prison." Next thing you know, they're talking about a deal. Now, how does that happen? And you know, it he, like I said, he even hired private investigators to go through the police detective's trash. He followed the police detective. You know, they hired private investigators to go after the police. Um when I started um this story, of course, had to um I reached out to the police chief, Michael Rider, and told him what I wanted to do. He had never spoken on the record before. And he was reluctant because he said, "Every time a reporter has come to me to to do this story, the next thing I know, the reporter is pushed off the story and his words, not mine, and they're in the, you know, in the classified department. They're not doing the story anymore." So, Epstein also went after certain journalists, I think, over the years that were trying to do perhaps a similar story. How scary was that for you, Julie, and and how did they try to intimidate you because clearly they knew that you were working on this story for years, right? That you were getting to the bottom of things. >> They didn't know until after it was out. I mean, I >> How did you keep that from everyone? I was very uh careful because I had four victims that went on the record with me and I did not want him to know until I had to that I had four victims who were talking to me, number one. So, they didn't know until my story was pretty much wrapped up and that's when I sent out my letters and my emails and everything, right toward the end. It was probably like 6 months at the most before my story appeared. And I had been working on it since 2016. So, I was pretty careful. I'm sure they heard I was working on it. It's kind of hard to keep things quiet like that in case I I know other journalists did because they were calling some of my sources and saying, "What's Julie Brown working on?" So, I knew he might have But to be honest with you, I don't think he worried about the little old reporter from the Miami Herald. I think if it was a New York >> you, Julie. >> I think they did. I I honestly think that they thought, "Oh, well, the Miami Herald's doing a story." I I really think that if I had said, "I'm Julie Brown from, you know, the Washington Post," they would have paid a more attention to what I was doing. Be careful to underestimating the Miami Herald. That's what I would say, Julie. Somebody is in the chat is asking, uh uh Mary Tabor, I don't know if I'm saying your name right, Mary. Uh what do you think about the report yesterday that redacted the portion that shows Trump lied about throwing Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago, redacted by DOJ but found by the New York Times? >> >> Well, I I looked I don't know if it's the same thing that she's talking about that I saw, but it was some technicality thing. I don't really remember exactly what it was that was redacted. But the um members of the House Oversight Committee had already come out a couple weeks ago and said that they had seen that and that it was untrue that he had kicked First of all, Epstein was never a member As I understand, he was never really a member of Mar-a-Lago. So, it's kind of a technicality. You can't get kicked out of somewhere if you're really never a member. >> guess I guess told him he couldn't come to the club. >> Yeah. I You know, I think it's possible that that happened. Um You know, they were very uh competitive. Uh you know, in a lot of different >> and Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. Yes, Trump and Epstein, I think, were very competitive. You know, they had a real estate deal that they were both working on. You know, uh can't even remember now what year, but it was early on in their friendship and it felt, you know, Trump kind of in in Epstein's eyes pulled a fast one and he got the property and uh you know, so things kind of went south after that. Right. I read I read that that's what in fact soured the relationship. I'm going to ask you a little more about Trump and Epstein's relationship in a moment, but um I know that you that that you've been really digging into Epstein's death um in August of 2019. Uh mysterious circumstances when he was in prison. And on the day the body was found, Julie, I know Attorney General William Barr immediately announced that he had died of an apparent suicide and then 6 days later the medical examiner confirmed that ruling. I'm curious how you feel this quick declaration of what happened to Jeffrey Epstein impacted the investigation or really weakened it in many ways. Well, first of all, I don't believe that he committed suicide. Um and I say that as someone who has spent 4 years covering prison deaths. My biggest project before I did Epstein was the Florida prison system. So, I know a lot about the way things are covered up in prisons. Uh on top of all that, you have so many things that went wrong. It's It's almost even their own investigators, where as I'm digging into these files, I can see some of the Justice Department investigators, as they're asking questions to some of these people, you can tell even they are just amazed at how many things went wrong. It was just too much of a coincidence that 20 different things went wrong at the same time. You know, the cameras didn't work, the guards didn't do their checks. Um his cellmate, he was he was supposed All these files say, "Jeffrey Epstein has to have a cellmate. Jeffrey Epstein has to have a cellmate." All the These guards are being questioned by the Justice Department. His cellmate left in the morning. How is it that nobody followed the directives of their own institution and put another cellmate in his cell that night? They didn't. I mean, there's a million things like that we're finding out. And yes, in fact, you know, we were going through, when we were preparing this interview, all the sketchy stuff. And as I mentioned to my producer, the videotape, right? There's a big portion of it missing. As you said, there were Were there any other strange things that kind of stick out in your mind or is it the kind of amalgamation of all these questions that make you really convinced that he did not take his own life? Well, let's just back up a little bit on to when he tried, allegedly tried to commit suicide. This was on July 23rd uh and they found him unconscious in his cell. And if you really sit down and read that report, and it's worth reading, you can see that he's found unconscious, they kind of pick him up off the floor, and then he doesn't really say anything until they get him into psych, you know, the psych place that you take people who do this. And then he finally opens up and says that his cellmate, who by the way is this quadruple ex-cop killer, killed four people. Why you would put Jeffrey Epstein in a cell with someone who killed four people, who is this big Italian cop and with mob connections, by the way, as I understand it. And so, the first thing he says when he's kind of safe away from this guy is, "He tried to kill me." He didn't say I tried to do anything. And then, as you're reading, it sort of seems like, you know, the killer says, "Oh, no, he tried to commit suicide." So, they're believing the killer the this killer, convicted killer, and they're not listening to Epstein. And to me, that's the first fail because they should have investigated that. They They His lawyer asked for the video, by the way, of that incident, okay? And the Bureau of Prisons, the people to prison, gave the lawyers the the cell video the the video camera footage from another floor. They gave him the wrong video video, you know. So, that's in of itself, when you do find Epstein dead then a couple of weeks later, wouldn't that make you treat it right away, even though you think it's a suicide, wouldn't you treat it as a potential suspicious death? Because 2 weeks before that he said that his cellmate tried to kill him. So, they should have no matter what You know, by the way, it was only one guard that saw him hanging. If you read the reports, it was one guard. I haven't found anybody else cuz he was the first one in. He said he pulled Epstein down. So, that's all we know is from one >> the only that is the sole eyewitness and the sole piece of evidence because as you said, the video tape, it's missing. Right. >> And the other guards weren't on duty or were taking a walk or whatever, right? They weren't paying attention and one of them was sleeping and the other one was surfing the internet the whole time. They didn't do their checks. There's so many odd things. I mean, like I said, I could write a whole book on this because there is so many wrong things that are just wrong. >> What What about this cellmate who you say is a former police officer I guess convicted of killing four people? Has that person Is that person still in prison? Has that person been interviewed? That person I've never seen him interviewed on what happened that night of Epstein's death. He was in a cell right below Epstein, by the way. He was in a different cell that night. Oh, the night of the death. But but prior to that, they were cellmates. That's correct. That's correct. And Yeah, they interviewed him. He basically said Epstein tried to kill himself. He took a piece of rope and he you know, a fabric, you know, from the sheets which are orange and and tried to hang himself. So, you know, he did tell his story and of course he's denying that he did anything to harm Epstein. He is now in a prison in California and he is trying to get a pardon from Trump. And he allegedly claims he suddenly found this suicide note in a book that he claims Epstein wrote. Uh but nobody has seen it. Um so, you know, there's a lot to mine here as far as who knows what and you know, there's probably a lot of people that should have been interviewed right then and there that weren't. The two corrections officers that worked that night weren't interviewed until 2 years later. That seems so insane, doesn't it? It You know, they got accused of a crime, so they lawyered up and they weren't going to talk until they got their deferred prosecution agreement, which they did and when everything was said and done by the time they sat down with the office of the inspector the Justice Department's Inspector General, it was it was years you know, it was almost 2 years later. Why do you think Bill Barr was so quick to draw this conclusion and get it confirmed? I can't answer that question. I don't know because to me it defies logic. Any kind of a situation like that, I mean, you've been in this business a long time. You know, some people will say, yeah, it looks like it might be a suicide, but they usually say, but We're investigating. We're taking you know, we're interviewing people. We're I mean, they didn't do any forensic exam of that cell. They didn't do anything there, you know. They didn't take you know, any kind of DNA. They didn't even know which uh ligature he used because the guard took it off and there's all this fabric all over the floor. They never identified what specific piece of fabric he allegedly used to hang himself. By the way, I think you should write a book about this. I think it would do very well. Truly and there's so many things cuz I think it's hard for people to keep track of all these different things. There's so many conspiracy theories out there. I wanted to mention Michael Baden. He's somebody I interviewed on many occasions. He's a very well-respected uh forensic I pathologist. I don't know if he's a former New York City Chief Medical Examiner. And he argued that the injuries found in Epstein's neck and ruptured capillaries in his eyes were more consistent with strangulation than suicide by hanging. Um and and the Epstein estate has actually challenged challenged the suicide ruling. Why wasn't Michael Dr. Michael Baden's testimony taken more seriously in your view? Well, you know, law enforcement often discounts these private forensic pathologists that are brought in no matter you know, especially on these controversial cases, but I too have a lot of respect for Dr. Baden. And let me tell you something about him. I I became acquainted with him when I was covering prison deaths in Florida. I sent him some of my cases and the what a lot of people might know about him is he was on the New York State Prison death like it's a review board where anyone who dies in a state prison in in New York, he would be one of the people they would call to look at the death. So, he not only is he you know, a well-respected forensic pathologist, his background is in this specific area. And you can imagine that he probably has reviewed thousands of prison suicides. So, for him to say that he doesn't think that it it's you know, a suicide by hanging, I think I mean, I do think that people should pay attention because he was at that that autopsy, by the way. He didn't just review the autopsy that was conducted. He was there in the room when the autopsy was happening. Well, there are other red flags and and but before I talk about that, I'm just curious, Julie. Someone asked if you ever fear for your safety, by the way. I you know, I just don't think about it. I try to be careful and mindful of things. I'm probably more suspicious and pay attention to things, especially on the computer because people send me weird things all the time, so you have to be. But you know, as a journalist, you just kind of keep putting one foot in front of the other and you just keep working and I just you know, I have a belief that God's going to protect me, hopefully. Take care of me. I worried you know, my kids were younger when the story first when I was you know, it's been almost 10 years. So, I had it you know, they were at school and way at school and college and I had to really tell I was more worried about them, Yeah. me. So, you know, so you you just you just keep working. You know, there's so many journalists on this story now that you know, I guess I'm a little less worried than when I was going it alone. Sometimes there's certain aspects of this story I know are a little bit more um you know, fraught, you know, where um you know, you're talking about some very very very powerful people and I'm always glad when somebody else picks up the mantle of something that I'm writing about and it kind of confirms what I just wrote because then I feel like I'm not the only one standing out on a limb by myself. When it came to some of this the the Epstein files, were you surprised to see how widespread uh this trafficking ring was, some of the bold-faced names that were participating in what was going on and and traveling with him, associating with him, visiting his island? Um Was there anything in those files, Julie, that you had not uncovered before? There has been some things, but I I think that it's just exponentially worse than what I thought. I knew all There were a lot of people involved. I knew a lot of these names that we're now talking about every day. I knew that they were involved in one way or another, but when you see, as you know, when you see these emails, some of them and how these men spoke to each other sometimes about women and about things that you know, you know, it's it's a whole different ball game when you're reading their own words. What about the redactions, Julie? Were you um Were you frustrated by the redactions and do you think that many many more people would have been implicated? I know many of the survivors were frustrated because their privacy wasn't maintained as much as some of the the the people who were participating. You know, some of the people who were involved in these criminal activities. Um but how did you feel about the redactions and do you think we'll ever fully know the scope and and the number of people who were involved in this criminal enterprise? Well, let me tell you something. The way that these react these redactions were done has convinced me that they did it to confuse um and to You know, it's another impediment to the truth when you're filling these pages with black marks and taking things out. And many of them don't even make any sense other than you can't figure out who's on doing this, who's talking to who. And it's very hard to write stories based on that cuz you're you're only seeing pieces of a conversation, so you don't really know. It It might seem much more suspicious when you only have a piece of something than if you look at the whole picture. And the way that these files are out of order and all over the place, and redacted makes it very hard to figure you know, to string something together. Even the story that I did just over the weekend about these files that we discovered, you know, there were reports some files at the prison were being shredded. That story took us almost 2 weeks to put together because we had to make sure we understood you have you know, it's like a big puzzle and you have like maybe a third of the pieces. So then you look a little bit more and you find maybe another third and it just took a while to string that story together largely because of the redactions and the way that they're kind of thrown into this portal like like a salad. But that reporting Julie wasn't just from the files themselves. You did a lot of independent reporting for the story this weekend and for to catch people up who perhaps haven't read your latest piece. Um, you wrote that less than a week after Epstein was found dead inside his cell on August 10th, 2019 at the Metropolitan correction Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan, a corrections officer told the FBI that there were people shredding documents that and that an inmate at the jail said that they were ordered to take the bags of shredded material and throw them in a dumpster. So, um obviously a lot of people were being notified at this of this. The officer advised that if anyone cares about what was shredded, they needed to check the dumpster before it was collected at 8:00 a.m. on that Monday morning. What happened after that, Julie? Well, it doesn't look like anything happened until Monday and when the corrections officer again wrote an email that was forwarded to you know, the federal prosecutors. Again, these names are all redacted. You're not exactly sure who he's writing to. But it was given to federal prosecutors in New York because when they finally got the second email from we think from the same correctional officer, they said, "Oh, maybe we better go see if it's still there." But that was 11:00 a.m. on Monday and you know, the the stuff was already gone. So, um you know, they didn't act It doesn't appear that they act acted fast enough. I mean, we don't know. This is part like I said of the problem with the way these files are released. Maybe we didn't get the document that they went there and found them. One would think that that would be there, but as far as we know, they didn't get these bags of trash or take a look at them. Uh, and we have you know, there's other things in there that indicate to us that they're you know, because the prosecutors at the time they saw this email from the corrections officers, they said, "Well, wait a minute. We're missing these counts. We can't find any of the inmate counts before August 10th, which was when you know, Epstein was found dead. You know, there's they're they're noticing that there are files that are missing. So, you know, I you know, it's hard to to know for sure exactly what they shredded or even if they shredded anything because we don't see any evidence that they went and questioned anybody about the shredding other than the inmate who as I said in my story could tell when they're questioning him, they're not asking him tell us what you know. They're kind of giving him these questions that he can only answer yes, no, yes, no. I mean, that's not really the way you question someone when you want to find out what happened. And it was clear that he felt intimidated by these FBI agents and then back down and said, "I don't know anything. I like my job. I like what I'm doing." You could tell he just totally did not want to cooperate because he he felt intimidated by them. You know, we talk about all these pieces, all these you know, missing pieces, all these inconsistencies Julie that you've been tracking for a long time vis-a-vis the death of Jeffrey Epstein. Um and and I I I don't even know if you can answer this, but do you have any sense of how large and widespread this cover-up if in fact he was murdered, how you know, who the players are? I mean, it sounds like the FBI might have been not that interested in getting to the bottom of it. Do you have any sense of how big big it is? Not really, not yet. I think that just in the same way that we don't understand the how big the cover-up is as far as releasing the files to begin with because it's really um you know, I think damning that you know, President Trump ran on the fact and his people promoted the fact that he was going to release these files and then of course his attorney general said, "You know, I have them on my desk." And then you know, at when this was all happening, I was laughing cuz I was thinking to myself, "There's no way they're going to release this stuff." And of course we know now what happened. They sort of perfunctory gave them a couple of binders and said, "You know, here you go." And I just knew. I knew that they were giving them junk. And and then we know that that the president fought very very hard not to release these and in fact told Marjorie Marjorie Taylor Green that his friends will be hurt if these files come out. So, I wonder why he I wonder why he ran on that if in fact he knew uh some of the big names uh that were going to be in the files and that it might be incriminating for him too ultimately. It's hard to know with Trump. You know, he he has sort of his own he blazes his own trail. That's why people vote for him. That's why they like him. Um, that sometimes he he does do things that you know, normal politicians wouldn't do. And you know, perhaps as things got closer and more and more of the people that are in those files started reaching out to him and telling him, "Look, you can't do that." Maybe at that point he that's when he changed his mind. Yeah, I want to ask you more about Trump in a moment. I want to encourage anyone watching who has questions. I mean, this is a great opportunity to ask Julie questions because I feel like nobody really understands this story and the depths and the details as much as as Julie K. Brown of the the Miami Herald. But I want to ask you more about Trump, but I do want to ask you about this other strange thing that I know you've reported on this person named named Tova Noel. You mentioned earlier that they were not questioned, right? For 2 years after they lawyered up these two guards, but she was one of the correction officers. She was working the night he was killed or killed himself. And she is scheduled to sit for a deposition on Thursday as part of the House Oversight Committee. On the night that he died, she and another correction officer, Michael Thomas, were browsing the internet as you mentioned, failing to make the required rounds and sleeping. Um, now you're reporting, this is so interesting to me, Julie, about some of the bank accounts that are in the files. Noel Tova Noel's bank accounts. Can you explain to everyone watching what they show and why they're raising eyebrows? Well, let me back up a little bit. are very corrupt. And this prison had a notorious reputation for corruption. Uh, in fact one of the cases that got attached I think just by chance to Epstein's death investigation was a guard who was monitoring visitors and one of the visitors, a female, brought in some drugs. And the way that she brought in you know, she tried to smuggle them in, the guard caught her and said essentially to her, "Don't worry about it. I'm not going to report you. Just have to have sex with me." And this is this epitomizes what is going on in a lot of prisons in that the guards are part of the corruption as well. So, think and this like I said, there's a lot of history with this prison. It's been reported on about the corruption. Guards have been charged, arrested. Inmates are also involved in smuggling and phone cell phones, anything you can imagine. So, she actually Tova Noel Noel was not working there all that long and I think this was the first time she also was working in the shoe, which is the special unit that they have for can't think they call the special housing unit. And she but she had been working at the prison for about 2 years. And if they if the files show that I guess her one of her banks, Chase Bank, had flagged some of her deposits in her bank accounts. So, they did get the um the authorities I don't know if it was the FBI or the Southern District of New York decided to subpoena not only her financial records, but Thomas's financial records and the financial records for a lieutenant that was working that night. Um, I can't find Thomas's in the file um, there's only a portion of the loot. But, Tova's records are in there and you can see that there were cash deposits being made pretty regularly into her account from Well, the records start in January, which of course Epstein This is well before Epstein was even arrested. So, she was getting cash deposits into her account. These are You can see Zell deposits, Cash App deposits. They redact the name of some of the people in there, but there's some that are clearly like code, you know, that they don't have the person's name on them. So, she's getting a lot of cash, thousands of dollars. Uh, you know, Including uh, um, it says this from your reporting, but Knowles' bank statement showed thousands of dollars in cash deposits, some of which are bank JP Morgan Chase flagged as suspicious. She also leased a new 2019 Land Rover valued at $63,000 in January. She had received uh, she had also had numerous anonymous or redacted Zell and other cash app deposits, sometimes thousands of dollars at a time, many of the deposits preceded, as you said, Epstein's incarceration at the prison. Uh, but the bulk of the deposits, including a $5,000 cash deposit on July 30th, remember, he died on August 10th, right? Julie? >> Right. Uh, were made during the time Epstein was housed in the prison. So, obviously, you're going to be watching uh, or trying to find out Is this a closed hearing at the House Oversight? >> I think so. And, um, I actually am off that day. Uh, but I'm sure that I'll be tuned in one way or another, but um, but yes, you know, I can tell you what she's going to say though, because I read her 400-page interview, uh, so you guys don't have to. Thank you. I want to count, and I haven't done this yet, but I want to count how many times she said the words I don't know. She answered that that way almost every question that way. I don't know. I don't know. So, I don't think they're going to get a whole lot out of her when they question her on Thursday. I think she's just going to, you know, she just said I'd only work there short time. She claims she didn't even know how to do the the rounds. Uh, you know, she she was woefully, um, inexperienced to do that job, it sounds like. And so, she just kept saying, "I don't know about that, you know." Do you know that that that you're supposed to do this? No, I didn't know that. Uh, almost every single question she said, uh, "I don't know. I don't know how to do that." You know, "I don't know who does that." You know, it was one you know, question after another, she just said, "I don't know." I want wanted to ask you back to the Donald Trump connection to Jeffrey Epstein and you know, you reported that the woman who accused him of sexual and physical abuse was apparently believed to be cred- credible by the DOJ. Tell us about this story. You know, there's so much going on in the world. Um, I think this story didn't get as much attention, Julie, quite frankly, than it that it should have. And, um, it's it was involving uh, Oh, someone just asked, "Do you think Tova was hired specifically?" No, because she worked in the prison for a while, two years. >> doing now, by the way? She She once worked for some kind of a health company and she she's being sued for physically harming one of her co-workers. So, um, I don't know where that stands, but there's a lawsuit against her for for hitting one of her co-workers. Okay, so that testimony again should be really interesting, uh, or not, as she said, Julie. Let's talk about, um, this Trump story with the What was it? A 13-year-old girl at the time testifying that he tried to force her uh, I don't know. I mean, well, why don't you tell it, Julie? You're making me tell tell the um, Look, uh, when I when the when the reports or the my sources from the uh, Justice Department told me that they found her credible. That doesn't necessarily mean that they confirmed by the way everything that she said. Right. weren't able to do that because by the time they got deep in they interviewed her four times and by the fourth time, if you look at that last interview. And by the way, they didn't release all these interviews. They only released the first interview they did with her, where she was clearly too scared to provide a whole lot of details and got very upset and emotional and they ended the conversation before she really told her whole story. And then a couple of other, um, great journalists, um, Roger Sollenberger being one, an independent journalist, uh, and NPR were able to look They sh- You know, it's kind of cool how everybody I said it This story takes a village. And it's kind of cool how a lot of reporters are kind of, you know, building on each other's work. Right. They discovered from Maxwell's evidence list of the discovery that they used in the Maxwell case by comparing the numbers, the case numbers, they discovered that there were three other interviews with this woman that weren't public. So, of course, you know, then that got a lot of attention. So, the Justice Department finally did release the three subsequent interviews with this woman. And in each of those interviews, which are heavily redacted, uh, she provides more and more detail. And what we know now is the FBI agents who were interviewing her found some a lot of the information she was providing was credible. That's why they kept going back to her and interviewing her. When when did these interviews take place? What year? Uh, um, I don't know off the top of my head. I'd have to I don't want to be wrong. Um, but they were like, you know, 2019. It was in that time period after, uh, you know, the story my story broke and this It was actually her her friend who contacted the FBI on their uh, hotline. You know, their you know, they had a hotline that was set up to try to get more victims to report what had happened. It was actually her friend who contacted the FBI and then they found out from her friend who the woman was. So, she didn't come forward voluntarily on her own. It was a result of another tip that they connected with her. >> >> So, anyway, each time she provided more and more information, but she could only And I know from interviewing the victims of sexual assault that, you know, this retraumatizes horribly and that sometimes they can't talk anymore, you know, that it's too hard, especially if if the younger the victim was when the sexual assault happened, the harder it is. You know, they are bringing up all these memories and and her story was really about how she she was sexually abused in South Carolina by Jeffrey Epstein. And, uh, but at some point she said he introduced her to Donald Trump and that then Trump did sexually assault her. Um, but by the end of the conversation, the fourth interview, she was talking about how she was getting threats. You know, that cars were running her off the road, um, that she was getting threatening phone calls. She was scared. And she They wanted her to cooperate more. They wanted to do more, you know, and and look into her story, investigate it. Uh, but she didn't want to go any further at that point, so they basically said, "Okay." You know, there wasn't a whole lot they could do if she didn't want to cooperate. And let me tell you something, I have faced this a lot of times with these victims. They do want to tell their stories, but once they get into it, they start realizing, "Look, I'm accusing a man that could squash me, you know, that I I could be hurt, my family could be hurt, my kids be hurt." And they start getting cold feet because they don't want, you know, especially their loved ones to be harmed. And I'm not saying that her story about, you know, the sexual assaults that she claimed either with Epstein or Trump are true. What I'm saying is, and I think what a lot of journalists that I've been following this is, they still should have kept going and and and and investigating and it didn't appear that they did, even though there clearly there were things in her story that they could confirm or not confirm, because that's exactly what the newspaper in South Carolina, uh, did. Then they took her story and they were able to go through it line by line and confirm a lot of the things that she had told, uh, the FBI about where she was when this happened. You know, her mother had gotten involved in some uh, situation where she was being blackmailed. And they were able to put some of the pieces together of her story to to show that she was credible in the sense that a lot of the things she said they were able to confirm. Have you talked to her, Julie, at all? No. No, she hasn't talked to anybody. I think I'm probably not the only journalist that has tried to talk to her. Uh she's uh you know, she these victims they don't feel like what is in it really for me? I mean, she said that in her interview. She said this happened so long ago. I don't see how this is going to end well for me in any any stretch of the imagination. There's nothing good going to come of me doing this. That's like some of the some of the survivors have been so brave and talked openly about what happened, but you know, do that many of them feel that way that that justice will never be served, that the people who are responsible for this will never be held to account? Yes, some of them do. There's you know certain victim you know, every victim is different. You know, some of them are stronger than others. Some of them come from um families that you know, especially this woman that we were just talking about the child from her family background that she came from terrible circumstances. So and those are the very uh girls and young women that sex predators prey upon for a reason because they know that they're they're too scared and that they're not going to be believed. Um so there's a whole gamut of survivors and you know, some of them um are braver and able to talk about it. Right. I I'm curious um just getting back to Trump who says that he and we were talking about this earlier Julie and I won't keep you for too much longer, but that this is so fascinating for us to have this opportunity. Um you know, he says that he kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago or prevented him from from coming to Mar-a-Lago. Uh You said he was not a member, but from visiting after he had done something inappropriate to a member's teenage daughter. Um do you believe that the President of the United States continued to have a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein in the years following that incident or do you believe that they had a true falling out and never communicated again? Well, I do think they had a true falling out, but whether they communicated again, I don't know. I honestly don't know. Um I haven't seen any evidence they did, but I haven't seen any evidence they did. You know, so it's hard to know until you know, that might be in the the answers to that might be like in the 3 million more files that we have seen, you know, and >> we'll ever see those Julie? I don't know, maybe not now, but maybe um you know, if Trump isn't office, maybe those files we hope. And by the way, you know, other press there's been other presidential administrations that this case this case has lasted for a very long time and I do think that the Biden's administration should have taken a little bit harder look at this case. A lot harder. So you do believe they deserve the criticism that why didn't they do more um and and I guess Ghislaine Maxwell happened under uh the Biden administrations watch, right? But in your view they could have done much more. I at least from the files that we see so far, I don't see a whole lot of beyond once they got Epstein and and of course then he died and then they convicted Maxwell. I don't see any evidence from the files at all that they were really trying very hard to go after or I shouldn't say go after, but just to investigate some of these other names that we are seeing in the files. I don't see any evidence that they did a whole lot with all the other information that they got from by the way, from a lot of victims who came forward uh upon Epstein's arrest. They went to the FBI and they did tell them look, he trafficked me to so-and-so and I don't see it. You know, you know, whether they're like I said in files that we don't see, I don't know, but I don't see it and I do think that that they you know, there's a lot of as I said, this this is not a political debate here. This was a sex crime involving children and it shouldn't be a political debate. Everyone should should want to get to the truth here because you know, a lot of people were hurt harmed and some of these men that were involved are still you know, they were predators and they deserve to pay a price. They deserve to be um you know, to be held accountable and no matter who's president. Let me ask you about Epstein's attorney Darren En Dyson and his accountant Richard Kahn. They have both testified over the last couple of weeks. Um what were your major takeaways from those testimonies and have you talked to any of the survivors about that? I haven't spoken to the survivors largely because I think anybody with the survivors just like me and we're not surprised at what they you know, claimed that they didn't know anything. You know, it it it's of course it it it's impossible that they could not have known. For one thing knew about him getting arrested in Florida in 2008. They certainly knew about all the the women that then came forward, the girls that came forward in Palm Beach. There were you know, dozens of lawsuits civil lawsuits that were filed with great detail and they paid all those legal bills and there were a lot of them. I think he paid over $100,000 in legal fees. Um so they had to know what he was doing because he's he has been doing it unfortunately for 20 or more years. Uh before we go, I'm curious Julie about the role Ghislaine Maxwell may play. You know, she took the fifth. She's been transferred to a cushy prison after a conver interviews with the number two guy at the Justice Department. I mean that's you know, smells pretty rotten, right? I mean, what role do you see her continuing to play or do you think do you believe that she might actually be pardoned by Donald Trump? Is that what she's angling for? I mean, help us understand her role moving forward. There's a lot of people in the propaganda business around Maxwell right now and they are I think setting the stage for her or trying to set the stage for her to get a pardon. And so we'll have to see if if Trump's willing to do that or not. She certainly knows everything and she's she's pretty smart and I think she probably has a lot of material that she could release and it's possible that some of that material could have to do with some very powerful people. So we'll have to wait and see whether she's pardoned or not. I think if she's pardoned, that says what we probably already know and you know, that that there are some powerful people that want to cover this whole thing up. And I guess they're going to be in a rush to pardon her before 2028 because obviously if depending on what happens with that election uh you know, there might be a very different set of circumstances. So I guess watch that space, right? Yeah, and and also you know, it could be it might not even be you know, because Trump's trying to protect himself. He might just it want to pardon her because of other people. Um as he told Marjorie Taylor Greene some people in his in his own circle of friends that that want this whole thing to go away. Do you think it will go away or do you think you know, a lot of people watching this it's it's basically saying that uh it's really the responsibility of all of us to ensure that it doesn't go away, that justice is served, that these powerful people are held to account, that these survivors um get some kind of not closure, but justice honestly. Um where do you see this all Do you see that uh the country will still focus attention on this? Do you see reporters like yourself are going to continue to cover every aspect of this story? I think it'll probably quiet down eventually. I mean, it did after my series. There was a lot of uh attention right after my series and that was back in 2018 as you now know we it quieted down after the outrage factor kind of died down. Um and I I think it's going to be harder this time though because the public the general public can you know, call these files up on their own computers. So there's a lot of citizen sleuths I call them out there who are looking at these files and they're aghast at what they're reading. Um it's a little bit different if you personally see this it with your own eyes than if you're just reading it in a newspaper or listening to someone a pundit on television talk about it. So I do think it's going to be harder to quiet it down now that some of these files are are there where people can see them. We're going to try to stay on this as best we can. I know that I'm trying to set up an interview with Ron Wyden. Um yeah, you know, maybe you can explain how he has really been pursuing this incredibly aggressive he's obvious aggressively he's obviously US Senator from Oregon and he has been very vocal about how he's being stonewalled at every turn in terms of getting more information from all sorts of government agencies who are now kind of uh, trying to keep government agencies from cooperating with him and his committee, right? Right. Um, the Treasury Department has refused to turn over files. Um, and you know, I think everybody has to be calling upon their elected officials, their members of Congress, whoever they are and ask them why aren't you pushing for these files to be given uh, to Congress, you know, members of Congress who want it investigated. It's not even that Wyden wants to make them public. He just wants to be able to examine them and have an investigative team look at these uh, files, you know, under the premise of course, you know, follow the money. That might tell a story about who exactly was involved and who was behind all this and how deep it goes and the fact that the Trump administration is refusing to give Congress even, you know, these files, I think says a lot about uh, this whole entire cover-up. Really, it is a cover-up. And um, you know, I think that you know, the public needs to keep pushing their elected representatives uh, to tell them to to not stand in the way of you know, that this investigation which I think is very important. Was there anything uncovered in New Mexico at this ranch that was finally searched? Not that I know of. I mean, think about it. It's been quite a long time now. So, anything that was there, you know, is probably gone uh, or it was buried in such a far-flung piece of the property. I mean, there's a lot of acres there and uh, so we don't really know what was going on there. That is another failure of the Justice Department um, under the Biden administration that that should have been searched. His his uh, Virgin Island property his his island was not searched until after he died. Um, I never understood why it took them so long to do those searches. You know, I understand they need some probable cause and maybe that was maybe a problem. Um, you know, you'd have to have victims um, who were assaulted in those locations. I do know they had the farmer Annie Farmer who said she was assaulted in New Mexico. They had her. So, it's sort of a mystery about why they didn't uh, you know, search those properties from the get-go. Well, you know, a lot of what has come to light is the result of intrepid journalists like yourself. I know there's some other independent journalists who have joined this conversation. Thank you all for staying on this and I think it's once again a a testament Julie to the importance of journalists without who cover what is happening in this country without fear or faith favor as they said at the New York Times at one point and without kind of being pressured to uh, you know, hold this party party line and to protect the administration. And so, I'm really grateful honestly Julie for your work and for your continued work. Julie had a book come out in 2021 called Perversion of Justice. Um, I highly recommend you write another book um, because you you really um, are such a a huge clearinghouse and and reservoir of information Julie and um, you know, just thank you so much for what you do and thank you for so much for spending some time with us and the people who follow me on Substack. I'd love to have you back anytime there's a story or an update um, and yeah, and and that would be wonderful and I don't want to I don't want to keep you from your reporting because you've got so much more work to do. with me for not coming on and I said, I can only do like I really try to only do two interviews a day because once I can't get my own work done. You know, it's funny once you get in those files, I don't know if you've had a chance to look into them at all, but when I get in, I can't get out. It's like you're in and then one thing leads to another and you see this document, you see that document and then you got a million pieces and then before you know it, it's 10:00 at night and I've been working 10 hours, you know. >> As a quick, do you have other people on your team who are helping you through everything? I should give a thanks to uh, Claire Heely. She's been helping me a lot with all these stories. I should was remiss in not mentioning her sooner. Uh, she's been doing some great work um, and yeah, we we kind of have other reporters helping us when you know, the files come out. There are people that help me um, search and put it into some kind of a search engine. I've also been using this uh, program called Source Base AI. Uh, they reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to try using them and they they they have been good too because they can kind of communicate. You could say, "Look, I want to know everything about this prison guard for example." And they'll find everything in a way that I might not have been able to find it if I just put her name DOJ's search engine. So, uh, and there's a couple of other people I don't even know who are on uh, my signal who are sending my Michael. Hi Michael. He's he's been great. I don't even know who he is, but he's been like sending me stuff that he find. I said, "Did you see this?" And he'll send me stuff and I just am very appreciative to all the citizen sleuths out there that have been helping. No, that's great and I think a lot of people people Source Base AI is it an an app? Someone's asking. It's a a website. I don't know if they have a phone app. I just used it website. Yeah. And I'm not sure how um, like they let me in cuz they wanted me to do this, but I don't exactly know the procedure for the general public to do it, but they have a webpage so you could probably check it out. Great. Well, again, thank you so much Julie. It's great to see you. You know, I as you know, I worked in local news in Miami and that was, you know, I I got to know a number of Herald reporters like Carl Hiaasen and Edna Buchanan. And Joel Achenbach became a friend of mine. He went on to work at the Washington Post. So, um, I hope the Miami Herald can continue operating and if people want to make sure they uh, see your latest reporting on everything you're doing, obviously they need to subscribe to the Herald, but do you have a newsletter or there any other ways? I know you're on MS now a fair amount, but any other ways And my Substack I I'm really enjoying my Substack because it's more like an analysis that I'm able to do like when I'm talking to you. It's not just a a news story who, what, where, when. I can actually put things in context more than in a traditional news setting. I'm really enjoying um, I didn't know I would enjoy it so much. I'm enjoying Substack because I feel like I can I can really tell people the way it is so to speak. >> Well, very it's very liberating, right? And you don't have people saying editors saying you have to cut 100 words from this story or things like that. Um, and that you can just have a direct line to to people who are interested in your work. So, follow obviously follow Julie on Substack and um, follow me on Substack. It's JKB Journalist on JKB Journalist on Substack. Um, again, thank you so much for your time. Get back to your great reporting. I hope we'll get to meet in person one of these days. Thanks for having me Katie. I appreciate it. Okay. Bye Julie. All right, before we go everyone, um, I I never know how to remove people. Uh, I think that Julie just removed herself, but I just want to remind you all tomorrow if any of you are part are participating in our scroll less read more book club, Anna Quinlan is going to be here to to talk about her new book. Um, so if you haven't finished, finish the book. I'm excited to talk to Anna about so many things. Uh, not uh, gosh, you guys, sorry. I just want to make sure I didn't break Thank you. Hold on 2 seconds. More than enough is the title of her book. I have a lot of stuff rolling around in my brain. But Anna's going to be here you guys tomorrow at 5:30 uh, p.m. Uh, to talk about her book and we'll also be announcing our new book for April. It's a book that Jess is coming out on paperback. And I know some people have said some of these books are a little pricey, but this book will be coming out in paperback. So, hopefully it's more affordable. And it's uh, I know, thank you. I'm glad that Robin is not the I'm not the only one Robin who's more than enough. Um, we don't have an April book pick yet. Okay. We don't have an So, I'd like to revise that. We don't have an April book pick yet, but we will soon. Someone's writing me. Okay. All right. Anyway, thank you all so much for joining me and Anna tomorrow and I've really enjoyed the book club. So, I hope you all have as well. All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye.