Hi everybody, I'm Nicolola Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund and today we are in really really good company. We are in Singapore. We're talking to Forest Lee, the founder and the CEO of C, which is the largest tech company in Southeast Asia. Uh, a market leader in video game distribution and in fintech and in e-commerce. An incredible journey and a big thank you for taking the time. >> Welcome to Singapore, Nicola. Thank you for visiting us. >> Thank you. I also should say that in the fund we are a big shareholder in C and uh uh so we follow it very very closely but first of all for those in um uh in Europe and the US who don't know C what uh what do you do? >> Yeah C is a Singaporean technology company and with the mission to better the lives of consumers and small businesses through technology. So we are the technology company by heart and uh it has been 16 years when we started company and uh we primary uh focus on Southeast Asia market uh as the first market and later on we also enter into some new market like uh Taiwan like like a Brazil. Uh actually interestingly uh the name uh of the we chosen the name C as our company name is actually a short form of Southeast Asia. This is a kind of a a shout out of our of our home market. We feel very proud of that. And uh and today we primarily operate three businesses. Uh video game business named Garina and uh and an e-commerce business named Shopee and more recently the fintech business named uh named money. And uh uh for Garina uh it started as a just a game distributor and in Southeast Asia but later on we evol to become a one of the largest mobile game developer and publisher in the world >> and a self-developed game from Garina named Freefire and >> you have something like 100 million people playing this every day right >> yeah free like today is the the largest mobile game in the world by daily active users as you mentioned more than 100 million people uh play the game from over 130 countries every on the daily basis. >> Do you play it? >> Yeah, I played a lot. >> Well, I'm I'm I'm very pleased you taking a break from uh from playing to to talk to us. >> Yeah. >> Um but how uh to go from like a video game distributor to become uh you know more than hundred billion dollar uh market cap company. Just how did it how did it go about? How was how what happened? Yeah, it is a it is amazing journey and although we started as video game company but our ambition our mission is always like is is more than that right and as we as we deeply in our heart we believe in technology and I think it's there's a lot of other uh things like uh uh uh in addition to to games and can be can be done through the through technology and uh I still remember about 10 years ago when we received our uh series of B funding we are like uh we achieve uh we we reached a billion dollar valuation. So we officially become a unicorn. I think if I remember correctly, we're probably the first unicorn from uh from tech technology unicorn from Southeast Asia. And 10 years later today, as you mentioned, it's a hundred billion dollar market cap public company. And it's over the 10 years is we achieved like a 100 times of of the value. The biggest contributor for that actually is we ride a wave of the mobile internet revolution. And 10 years ago is just the very very beginning of the of the of the all the smartphone and all the all the like the applications on the on the smartphones before that and there's the internet there's a there's a PC game actually we started as a PC game publisher and there's a e-commerce but the dressable market is much much smaller because you need have a desktop and to assess the internet and you need a broadband and broadband penetration in a lot of our market is still relatively low but things completely changed when you have the when you have the phone, right? And you you like people can can access the the internet and do all the things anywhere anytime. >> But you were but I mean you were a video game distributor. How did you come up with the idea of uh going into e-commerce just what was the thinking behind that? Yeah, it's a down to the like what is the fundamental value and the technology can bring and and I I I remember um interestingly actually 10 years ago and I I sometimes I brought my family to China for holidays and uh at that time I I have a six-year-old daughter. It's a like a Yeah. So uh to to we are very very impressed by how much like e-commerce has developed especially like the mobile the mobile e-commerce developed in in China. So on our trip and uh uh sometimes my my daughter want this, want that, like no matter what she wanted and it's just a few kind of taps and and the swaps on her mom's phone and the the the box just delivered to the door next day and uh and whatever he want she want it will be in the in the box. to her this is a this is a magic and u and I I give a lot of thoughts about it like when we came back to Singapore and I think this is just a great business and it's a it's a creates so much value and creates so much joy and convenience to to consumers and and it's hard for me to swallow the fact such business such thing doesn't exist in in Southeast Asia. But but how do you um uh so how do you go from having the idea to actually executing this? Because now you have what what market share in Southeast Asia? You have close to half the market or >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So you go from nothing to half the market in Southeast Asia. You you beat uh Alibaba, Tik Tok and so on. Um how do you go about it? There's a lot of factors and uh but the thing is like what we really really focus on is coming out the local solutions and because of uh we are we we before that we are video game company right and we are a game company and we we have a pretty much have a zero e-commerce experience and uh and we never done e-commerce in other market right and so when we try to uh address this this like looking at this business opportunity we really go to down to the fundamentals and we don't have a ready to go playbook from other market. I say what is really matters in in any every specific market what is the best solution for that >> um for example I think a key differentiator for us over the years is the logistics capability we have a we have a build and uh we are the only e-commerce player today uh have a build up a lot of uh uh capability in terms of the logistics and it's a it's a very very important and because of number one and this is a key things for the customer experience right is it doesn't matter how good things you you buy, how cheap you buy and people really care where I can have it, can I have it on time and and can I have it in the good condition of the of the puzzle. So this is a very very important but it's a very very hard problem to solve and the Southeast Asia is a very vast geography with a very complicated situation and the roads right and the and the and you know a lot of places there's a not complete address system there's a no kind of like a like a postcode database right and you you always see that the the customer just describe the address the the delivery uh like a point is okay you you you drive into the village and You keep driving, you see a mosque and turn right and then after two big trees you see a red house on the left that is that is a address. Yeah. So definitely you cannot find such a place on on Google map and and over the time we have to build up our own address book with address system based on all this uh all this information and that is become very very very very important. >> How much money have you spent building the infrastructure on the logistic side? Well um well it's it's it's a sizable investment but we have been very very uh very very uh smart and very very cautious in terms of the capital things and most of our facilities is a is on the lease basis we don't really purchase land we don't really purchase a building but I think it's a it's a it's a less about the money is about the effort and it's about the determinations um we are we are not a logistics company right and and we don't have the in-house logistics team have been very very good experience really focus on things, but we have a lot of a very very smart talent, right? And is it do you really want your best talent to work on those challenges? Like most of the people they say they probably don't want to work on those things, but if you want to build up a successful e-commerce business, this is the things you have to work on. That's why we assign our best talent and the smartest ones, right? and to to to focus on those issues and they put a lot of effort to figure out every single point A to point B for the route and what is the best way what is optimized way for delivery which is the cheapest cost and with the shortest time so and this is a very very much a and and bottom up effort what are the key factors uh that you have to what are kind of the key boxes you have to tick in order to beat these competitors you know what are the other things learn logistic six that you think are important >> many many things and but I think what really uh matters to us is a it's a it's a very long-term horizon I think like we believe in this business and uh we we we do this business I mean we see Southeast Asia is our home market and uh we for foresee ourself will be an e-commerce supplier here forever so whatever we build is a very very very long-term focus and uh uh we care not much about the competitors I mean over the time we have gone through several round of competitions and uh competitors sometimes come and go and they come by waves and they also leave by waves and but we are the one always stay here and this is our home ground so and we have been very very focused on to build up the customer satisfaction I think we're very obsessed with with our customers right is it on every day on a daily basis and our NPS score is getting better is the customer just more happier is happier to buy things on shopppee are they buying more are they buying more frequently and and they give give us more trust. So I think that is really kind of the the the the advantage and we want to we want to build and to make a sustainable success here. >> So what are the numbers you look at on a daily basis from from this part of the business? >> Wow. Uh there there's a there's a quite a lot and it start with the the daily the orders the the GMBB and the active user numbers on our app right and the the the purchase frequency and for every delivery is like the we we don't look at every single delivery but we look at and and cohort basis is what is the average delivery time and is this meet our expectation is getting better than the and the last last week and what is the customer service satisfaction satisfaction rate right and how how how soon we resolve the customer complaints the issues. So all those small things and it's not for us we also track all the merchant right and you know we have a we have a chatbot like for the customer service it's not only for us between us and the the customers it's also between every single merchant and the customers we want to make sure all the merchant on shopppee platform also provide a very good customer service we also check them we read them in terms of how quickly they respond to a customer inquiry so this is and and we we have certain incentive to encourage them to do to do it to do it better. >> What are what do you think is going to be the future development in this business? What are the what are the next developments? I think like fundamentally uh the core of the e-commerce is like how do you make sure it's number one is it's a more affordable and more accessible to more people to have more people to enjoy the benefit of the e-commerce and uh this is rel to a lot of work in the in the supply chain uh like optimizations at this moment if we are not just matching uh whatever the the the the merchandise with the customers we also put a lot of effort to work with a lot of uh upstream uh suppliers and how to make their product more uh attractive, more more competitive. Like we we provide a lot of them the the the market information what really customers want and to help them to do better businesses and uh and uh and again so delivery is a big things. It's a it's a very very important part in the whole e-commerce experience and there's still a lot of more we can do and you can be always be make it cheaper and faster. So we're going to keep doing on that and uh and uh we also noticed there's a certain like a new trend right and and the and about about the industry and more recently the the live streaming. So that is a new way of uh selling things and the engagement uh with the with the with the with the buyers and uh and and also that's could be just a way to do e-com to do e-commerce customer service. You can just sitting there do the live streaming to answer questions whatever whatever questions you have on the on the product. So we embrace that format. We want to make sure whoever want to selling through live streaming, it can also sell on on Shopee. So um the the industry will continually evolve. But I'll say this will be just gradually and the fundamental things will not change and just make things cheaper and and faster to customers and uh and for whatever you can do. Yeah. >> And so what part of the technology are you working on just now to develop further? Well, um there there's many many things but if you have to call out uh a very very specific ones like actually we are very very excited to see how how much AI can help to to improve the businesses and we have already seen some uh very visible progress and for example considering the the the the transaction volume we are dealing with on the daily basis it's such a big business it's like we handle like millions of customer inquiries on the daily basis every behind And every purchase there's a lot of uh inquiries. The customer always want to know like uh is it something really good to buy? What is the color do you have? And I already made a purchase and when can I receive it? Where's my puzzle? Yeah. If I don't like it, what can I do? Right. And there's what else do you sell? So, and now like 80% of such inquiries is handled by AI chatbot. >> Oh wow. >> And the satisfaction rate is very very high. And we do the AB test for some we ask the chatbot like enabled by AI to to to to to do to do the to to do the customer service some is by human being and we compare the satisfaction rate and actually it's it's on par. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So it's a and now even we use uh AI tools to train our customer service representative even like we use a AI tool a kind of a AI like a c service trainer to train the the train customer service human representative so it's a >> that's that's yeah that's a very interesting >> what about the uh the gaming business what is the latest developments there >> the latest development and uh actually to us is a uh free fire is already like a very very successful very very successful game and uh and increasingly and and and we we we notice it's a and and the game is is a beyond the game actually it's a it's a really become a platform if you think about freef fire as a app on your phone right it's it's a mobile game it's a huge uh aggregator of a of a of a traffic and increasingly we see when you have that traffic whatever the new game content the new game play you can just keep adding into this platform enter into this game so it's a the game is really become not just a product and finished products become a service and it become evergreen uh platform. I think this is a this is a very very powerful and now uh we even can identify a lot of social trend on the on the in the game like people really talk about what is the hot topic in the in the in their community in their society right and uh and actually last year and there is a very famous uh uh like there's a like a hippo become very very famous in Thailand and suddenly become a global phenomenon like everybody say oh this baby hippo is so cute and it's so adorable and within two week two weeks and we build this hippo into the game. It's a become in-game character and there's a lot of in-game kind of a custom like a pet related to this hippo and it's it's really really loved by the by the gamers the tie gamers feel very very proud to say oh this is a local there's a games so local they care what we we care here and globally everybody say oh this is so cute people and want to go to talent to to to to see it is a is a so it's a it's beyond the game and we see a lot of social media post about the the in-game character of these people also make the freef fire like a more famous and beyond the gamer audience. I think this this is some new trend we have been observing and I'm a big believer. I think like the game is increasingly become the primary entertainment and social tools for the younger generation. >> What are some of the other developments that you think we could be seeing here going forward? Uh well again so I have to mention AI again this is the this is the things really uh will be the gamecher and uh uh we have already seen that and uh and it's very obvious on the production side right and for any game you know you need to generate a lot of keep generating new content is generate a lot of code and generate a lot of uh arts right and previously a lot of things has been done like for the very very basic ones we have to outsource for third party like a studios like I'm talking about the arts and they they came up we give them the concept they came up some very basic drawings and then our in-house senior designer just look at one by one and pick the good ones and give the final touch and before go to production and now entire this process is a is a very much done by AI and it's like our our designer just tell the AI tools okay generate things for me I want this and imagine this word imagine this character tell me and suddenly a lot of it could be generated I mean there are they're not that consistent yet the quality and uh there could be errors here and there and but it's a it's a it's a good starting point and again so our our in-house senior designer will just pick the ones is really good and just do the final touch and supervise the entire process. So that's save a lot of uh time. I think that's will largely increase the uh productivity on the on the on the creativity side and but I actually more important and it's a more exciting part is on the gaming experience part. I think it's still at very very early stage. Um but I very see the result. I can give you uh example the certain things we're are trying. So for example like a free fire is really a a team game. So it's it's a kind of like a it's the the biggest fun is coming from you go together play the game with other people you form a team and together and come out a different strategy different game play and people play different role try to win as a team together and but we have a lot of very shy gamers they just don't want to reach out to other gamers and they they log into the game they just play solo and they always play solo I think it's great to play solo has a great experience but we feel it's it's something missing it's a waste because actually would much much more enjoy enjoyable if you play as a team game. So what we're doing now is like before we try to match them up with the team up with them with some bots, right? And but the boss is very very predictable. It's very very stupid in a in a way after a while you know this is a boss is not fun. It's not fun to really play together and but because of the the the the new technology the AI actually the boss become much much smarter and they can not only play the game with you give you the guidance what you do in the game they also can chat with you can make a joke with you it's a really kind of become a very much a similar a human experience it's it's so real that it's a for a lot of the cases you can cannot really hard to tell the difference >> how many people do you have in game development >> um we have about 2,000 2,000 people developing games. Yeah. Wow. What is a good game? >> What is a good game? >> Well, and it's a fun game to play and it's a it's a it's a fun to play within the first hour and it's a it's still fun to play after 100 hours and uh it's a it's easy to start. It's like we want to build up the game. Uh it's accessible to everyone. We want everybody become a gamer and enjoying the game play. >> But you need you need a you need a practice and you need a lot of effort to become a expert. Yeah. >> So I think that is the key element in my view of a good game. >> Now the last the third area you have is um is fintech. What are you tell us what are you doing there? Oh, this is a amazing and this is a very very exciting business and we have a we think we have a we have a full potential there and uh we we I mean we start this businesses uh actually by resolving a lot of uh issues we have the the challenge we have for our video game business and for our e-commerce businesses right and uh and in the early days like uh even we publish the games and we have the best games from all over the world and uh but because of the people no credit card and for the gamers they have no way to pay us and We have to build up a a cash card like a gift card network ourself as a game company. is a build up. It's a payment network. And I remember the days I drive my car with all the bags of a credit card to go around 7-Eleven to distribute and to count how many cars I have in the in in the stock and how much money I I I I receive and uh and uh and and and and later on and for e-commerce online transaction is a become a big challenge as well, right? and uh and there's so many transactions and how you want to make sure the transaction is all smooth in such a large scale and uh and in a very very safe way. So that's the this all the challenge we we started with. So thus we build up a lot of solution the product under the money or fintech business umbrella to solve these issues. But actually we see a increasingly we see a very very big opportunity is a is because of our e-commerce businesses we realize and and when people want to buy things and they really don't have much access to the consumption credit and such a issue has been largely resolved in most of the market western market by credit card but as you know the credit card penetration is relatively low in most of the market we operated in so people just do not have access to credit and that's why we introduced the like through our uh shopppee purchase and we introduced this a it's a credit line for them like they can just buy things now but uh pay it later in some other western market this is just just a supplementary to the credit card but here because it's become a major main solution so uh even like within a very short period of time money already is already the largest largest digital lender for the for the for the consumer consumption like digital like in in Southeast Asia and it's we already have over $7 billion loan book and it's growing very very rapidly. >> So uh in a way these businesses fit together and there is a logical connection between them. >> Yeah. >> What would be the next logical extension of your business mix? Well, uh there is a lot of things and we can and we can we can think about it and at this moment and uh uh we we haven't really we don't rush into say okay this is will be a a new business we're going to enter into I think there's a still so much we can do and uh and uh in in the three verticals we have and this is indeed a very very three very very big verticals and three very very big applications at at the moment >> you mentioned AI several times Could we see you going into a more pure play AI? >> It could be. It could be. And uh and at this moment and and as I mentioned, we we we have put a lot of effort on the each business lines and for the for the for the specific applications. But on the company level and the and we have a lot of new initiative as well. We look at the entire organiz how the organization is structured is organized. Is it like a very much a AI ccentric organization? And I think that will be the future. And also we encourage a lot of bottom up initiatives. And back to 10 years ago when we just uh get into the the the mobile internet revolution. And I remember we we in-house developed a lot of pilot and all the different type of apps right and uh they called all the different names and try to uh try to become become a big business and eventually shopppee actually one of the it's a project number six become a very very big mobile e-commerce businesses and uh and today again so we have a several like agent platforms and uh so we provide the tools in house we allow we encourage everybody in the company uh with or without coding experience to build up the agent for their specific need. So I do believe like whatever uh the new business opportunity we may capture you you have to start with solve a very very specific problem and now we we we provide the tools and we start with some in-house problems and hopefully if something really become valuable and can can be applied not only inhouse but for the more like a broader customer base and we should launch it as a as a standalone business that will be the new new business enabled by by AI. Which companies in the world do you admire the most? >> Well, um there's a there's a lot of great companies and uh I think it's it's hard for me to pick any specific one and but there's so many uh great things and we can we can learn the the the but uh I I do admire uh in our industry. So Amazon I think it's a they have they have the best they they're the pioneer not only the pioneer of the of the e-commerce and also there's also doing uh doing great and a lot of things we we we have to learn for them very very obsession with the customers and always focus on lower low price for the customers deliver the value to the customers then really really focus on logistics network which we also believe that is a key part of the e-commerce businesses and what we want to uh learn from them and also follow their path is like uh they they they kind of like incubate their cloud business and some additionally a lot of new businesses through their original e-commerce businesses. Hope we can follow that path as well to continually uh grow. >> What would it take for you to be a trillion dollar company? >> Well, I think it will be AI. Yeah. And uh and uh again so mobile internet we ride we ride wave of the mobile internet revolution and make us a hundred billion. It's hundred billion dollar company and it's hard for us to imagine uh without the mobile internet revolution if we are just a PC game like a distributor. I think doesn't matter how good we are there'll be no way for us to to be where we are today and and I think it's a trillion dollar trillion dollar business is always aspiration and uh but increasingly I see the path there. I think it's the answer will be will be AI and and the AI just will be just a lot of value creation and and make people's the technology will make people's life very very different today and in a very very better ways. I think this will be bring a lot of convenience and joy to the to the to the to the customers and large large value will be created. A big pie will be created and hope we just do our best to capture part of it and uh and and a trillion dollar is is very achievable >> given the markets you're in the the share price can be very volatile and you know the share price was up uh I know five times and it's down 70% and now it's back up sharply. Does that uh impact the way you think? Well, uh I I think it's a it's a good journey for us. I mean appreciate we have gone through that and and we are really uh proud and we have survived all those up and the downs and >> and uh um well I I would say there's a there's not much impact and a lot of time the share price just reflect the external perception of the of the market of the business of the of the company but I think like uh I as we stay true our with our belief which we believe in technology I think technology will keep advancing and the technology uh across the entire history in the past and also probably in the future just continually getting better and and change people's life in a better way create a lot of value and uh and uh and that is a that is a very very kind of like a like convincing and uh and we we deeply believe in that and on top of that I think there is a huge market right and u and today uh there's a lot of still there's a lot of part of the world people not really fully uh enjoy the the benefit a technology can bring to them is because of probably the infrastructure because of the there's a no very much local solution for them and there's a no right application I think that is a part probably uh we can pick continually play a bigger role and we start that role from Southeast Asian market our home market and then and in the past five years we also kind of bring our best practice to Brazil and Brazil become a very very sizable market for us and there's a lot of other places for us to continue to do that. >> Moving on to uh to corporate culture. What um how would you define the corporate culture in C? >> We have uh five core values. When when you walk into the office, you may see the value war. So we have that we have that war like in every single office. We want to make sure it's very very visible. It's a reminder to all the employees on the daily basis. >> It's the five things is uh we serve. We always want to make sure uh customer come first. Whatever like uh we do is is a we need we have the customer service mentality and we run we highly value execution speed matters and if we get things done today we're not going to wait till tomorrow and if we can run we will not work so and we adapt and we know we are in a very very dynamic environment and it's highly competitive and the technology change so fast as you just uh mentioned the share price can go five times and go go go can go down like 70 80 90% % so it's a very very uh changing environment. So we need to make sure we can always adapt and uh we commit. So the like whatever you want to achieve right is it doesn't matter it's a hundred billion dollar market cap or trillion billion dollar whatever things you do and you want to be committed that is the only way you can achieve excellence and actually the last one is uh we stay humble and uh and I believe this is the foundation of our core values the culture and if if you have to pick one word to describe our corporate culture and that will be uh humility I think it's a it's a guide us in the in the in the in in the good time. >> Why is it important to be humble? >> Well, I mean I think it's a interesting and that is a is even before I started the company and uh and uh I was a Stanford student and I was fortunate enough to sit in the audience when Steve Jobs gave this very famous uh uh commencement speech and stay foolish and stay hungry and he shared three amazing personal stories. But my take away from that story all this speech actually is a is advice to the young fresh graduate and it's a it's a calling for humility right because you have to be uh humble and to stay stay humble to to stay foolish right and you have to acknowledge okay there's a you are probably not the smartest ones and there are a lot of things can be done better you should keep learning and uh and and you have to be humble to to stay hungry right and to try to achieve more is not enough and there's more things we can do and that's it's a keep it's a very very good reminder to me as a person and also it's a how I want to uh how I want to run my company so and this is a uh it's very very important I think to keep like driving the the company keep keep moving forward and it's also so important in the in the difficult time as you mentioned like uh uh our our share our share price hit historical high uh like I think like a few years ago in the 2021 when in the mid of the covid and uh and the the success comes so fast and so sudden and suddenly the whole organization feels so good and uh everybody feel oh we are amazing company we are we are we are we are the best we are the superman see our share price see our market cap and uh I have a very very unsettled feeling I feel really really worried at time and uh um I wrote a a companywide note to everybody I say okay Yeah. So it's very important to remind ourself like we need to stay humble and uh and uh and whatever we achieved or whatever how market see us and is still like where we are today compared to our ambition we are still young we're still very very small and we shouldn't feel too good too proud of our >> where does your but where does your personal humbleness come from >> I don't know I think that's it's a it's a it's a it's a just me and uh I always see uh the great greatness of other people. I always see people I enjoy working with the people and uh has a higher ambition and and be smarter than me could be more capable for me. And to me I always feel like uh okay this is a lot of things uh I can I can I can I can do better. Uh I think it's it's a come from the self-drive. Yeah. >> And where does that come from? Actually, I think it's a it's a remind me a a great movie called Forest Gump and uh and uh and uh you know, I picked the name Forest because of that that movie. I I just love that character in the movie. And >> what is it? What is it? I love Forest Gump, too, but what is it with Forest that you like? uh well he's uh clearly and uh he's not the smartest person in the in the in the in any any room right in the classroom and they are the mo he's not the most savvy and I feel related to that and along the journey I always see there's a lot of people smarter than me and and more capable more savvy than me right and uh and I I think it's maybe it's a naturally for me to identify the strengths of other people and find a way to to to admire them and to work with Um and uh uh and uh and but like look at the uh what who what first camp does right and he has a very kind heart and in a very very authentic way and uh he just keep trying to be helping and try to to loyal to the friends to the to the community and try to help others and even just a little small things right and doesn't matter his family his friends right his his co-workers his wartime colleagues right and he's is a trying to uh you know help other people do good things in a very very authentic way. >> How many times have you seen the movie? >> Well, probably at least 10 times over the years. Yes. >> Do do you think life is a box of chocolate? >> Yeah, it is a box of chocolate and Yeah. It's a full of surprise and it's a and it's it's a full of flavors. Yeah. I mean the the the things like I think the aspiration I draw is not only uh because of first come what he has done and and actually in a way is such a big impact he make to the community even in the movies in the in the changed the course of the American history and uh but he also lead a very very lived in a very very rich life and very very successful life both like financially and also like a socially he's very very successful I think I mean in a way probably I I see him as my role model and and and he's a very humble person to start with. That's maybe the where I draw the uh aspiration from. Yeah. >> Well, he bought some shares in the fruit company for instance. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love this. This is fantastic. Um but how do you but how do you how do you balance humility with confidence, you know, and ambition? Um humility I think it's a uh I don't see is the opposite to confidence and uh I'm a I'm a I feel I'm a very humble person and uh uh C is a very very humble organizations and but at the same time uh we are also uh very very confident and uh uh we know what we're doing and there's always a things and we can do we what we can do better and uh and but we also feel very proud for the things we are doing now and how good we can be and uh how much how much we we have achieved and uh in a way um I think um humility work perfectly with uh ambition and because it's a you can say it's like a yeah it's a it's a big achievement to be a the largest uh most valuable company in Southeast Asia it's like a hundred billion dollar that is a big achievement and but if I go to Silicon Valley there's a many trillion dollar companies and if your ambition is one of the days be be become one of them and to to be in their league and today we are still very very early and that is a way uh to keep us a few very very humble and we are still very early and we are still very small. >> What what is your leadership philosophy? How do you lead the company? >> Uh I would say three things and I really value doesn't matter when we were just a 10 people startup or like today we have like a 50,000 employees very large organizations. First is I do feel leadership should be uh it's it's all about not about yourself. It's about as a leader how do you lie up others? How to make other people being successful? I think that is a very very important and this is start when we're a 10 people company. It's like a I keep thinking even as a leader how I make sure these are 10 people will be successful together with me because a lot of them take the risk they quit their job they can have a very very good paid job they have a bright future but they decide to to give up all other things and jump into jump into this startup with me together and how to make sure they can realize their full potential they can live their full life by working together with me and it's today is a like that is what really kind of like I I push myself every day how to make sure all the 50,000 employees in the company and they can realize their full potential. They are doing what they really enjoying doing and they can like fully realize their strengths right and and I deeply believe if every single of them uh being successful find their success in the company and this will be a very very successful company. So it's like every time I talk to my employees it's always the first question in my mind is how can I make you better and how can I support you as your as your CEO. So this is the first thing and the second thing is like I believe um leader is a should be show up in the difficult time and should be pick always the most difficult decisions to make and take the most difficult actions and uh uh we all know sometimes u a easy decision a easy action doesn't mean it's the right one right and actually a lot of time is a is the other way and uh uh as a leader you need to take that uh ultimate responsibility and accountability and you cannot always just try to be do the good things, the pleasant things and the popular things. You should delegate that to the to your to your other team members. Let them do the pleasant things, let them do the the popular things and you should be count yourself do the difficult things. M >> so during the covid time and as you mentioned our share price dropped a lot and it's a very very difficult time and we have to quickly change the course of the our uh like a direction and we have to operate company with the from the capital abundance mentality to the capital scarity kind of a situation. And we have to achieve self-sufficient uh much much quicker right and then so we have to make a tough decisions we have to uh exit market we have to close down some new businesses and we have to let go great people and even for the people uh stay with us and uh I remember there's a one year a year end we decide to freeze the salary we decide to not giving out bonus and we cut a lot of a benefit and uh and I voluntarily to stand up and to sign the companywide note to inform everybody this decisions. I want them to hear from me and I explain to them why this is my decision. It's not a HR decision. not anybody else in the organization decisions my decisions and why I have to make these decisions and uh and uh I I also show uh I understand this means a lot of difficulty for our employees but we need to gone through this together and I seek for their understanding and and support things like the difficult time the leader should stand up and the the the third thing is about trust I think among all the leadership qualities uh build up the trust is a very very important and and people choose to follow you not because of how smart you are or like how great idea you have. It's a it's simply because of people trust you >> and a lot of time this trust need to be uh mutual and have and and need to be earned and I'm the person really uh enjoying personal relationships and I I enjoying time where much smaller companies I feel very proud I know everybody's name I know their birthday I know how many kids they have >> not anymore >> not anymore yeah not anymore and uh and uh and and uh and that's why I think that's have to change how I how I built up the trust and now I have to change in a much larger scale way. So I I I do uh rely on the companywide note and I take every opportunity to send companywide email. >> How often do you do that? >> Well um very very regularly uh I do u there's a uh I do our our company birthday and uh I do our IPO anniversary. I do the year end Christmas holiday and uh every quarter we will do earnings and I want to make sure our guys everybody in the company hear about company result and performance first from me instead of from uh media like from anybody else. So, and uh occasionally like when there's a specific things like I want to talk about it and uh and I also do that and when I travel uh I want to make sure I regularly I have a I have the roster. I want to make sure I cover all our local offices and I I I travel to meet them when I'm in the local office. Usually I do the town hall probably with hundreds of employees and uh they can ask whatever the questions they ask and they can ask real time live and uh no kind of no no forbidden questions and they can ask uh anything and in front of them I will see the questions and I will answer them one by one and I'm not going to skip any questions. I think that is a way to to to build up the trust. Now you also um well known for building great teams and you hire people sometimes straight from university and they stay with you right what do you think is the key to achieving that um we have a have a very very early days and uh we have this in-house management associate program and uh uh we brought in the young talents and uh and we grew them with them give them the opportunity and and we we develop them and a lot of them a lot of grad graduate from this program today already after 10 years already play a very very critical role in the in the company and uh and uh we benefit a lot from uh from such things. That's why and we keep this best of practice. We keep these traditions every year. uh the leadership team, not only myself, the entire leadership team, we spend a lot of time for this uh campus recruiting and we make want to make sure we bring in the the the very bright young talent and we rotate them and we give put them on two-year training program and we spend a lot of the time mentoring them and coaching them and uh hopefully they will find what they really enjoy and what they really love in the company and that they can stay stay long with the company and uh eventually become a very very key contributor to the to our future growth. We do believe in the young people and uh I think it's a starting with uh our early days when we started the video game e-commerce business here. Um the industry didn't really exist. There's a no no talent pool for us to directly hire with experience. So we do kind of have to build up everything from the ground zero. The only things we can do just bring in the very capable fast learning young people and just train them and grow them and grow and and grow them together grow with them together and develop them. So and the internal the the the in-house talent development and build up in talent pipeline and is a I would say it's very very important to us and become our key capability. >> Um how much do you work? >> Every day all the time wherever I'm I'm awake I'm I'm working. Yeah. When do you wake up? >> Um 6:00 or 7. Yeah. >> And and then you go to bed. >> 11 12. I try to sleep 7 8 hours a day. Yeah. >> And do you how do you relax? >> Uh spend a lot of time with uh with with my kids. And I mean they're still young and I really I get a lot of advice from from my friends. Okay. When they were young, try to spend as much as them uh you can. And you will miss that time when they when they grow up and they when they leave the family. So I cherish every moment I I spend the time with them at home and or travel together with them and sometimes I learn a lot from them. I think it's like probably because they are the younger generation customers and uh I get a lot of insight from them as well for games, for e-commerce. Yeah, >> you become immensely wealthy. How do you what do you enjoy doing with your money? >> Not much. I I think like uh for me it's a just me. I think there's not much change actually. I eat less compared to 10 years ago and I I I eat eat much simpler. Uh um I I didn't change much in in terms of what I what I dress and uh I I enjoy dress the the the shirts, the pants with the company logo. Most of the time they're free. So well uh I uh I haven't really thought about uh thought about I think it's like a probably it's it's not really about how to spend money. It's like a uh what is a really luxury I have with that money. I can I have the freedom to really focus on what I enjoy enjoying doing. I probably don't need to uh just uh do the work do anything just for make a living for meet the ends at the at the end of the months. I think that is probably a biggest luxury I have with all this money. I can really focus on uh my passion and and my my ambitions and then to me at this moment is very very clear. So I I want to continually build C to a to a greater company. >> Finally, what is your what is your advice to young people? Actually I I I uh we we we talk about a little bit about that and uh again so I I want to mention it's a as it's a movie it's a first camp right and uh it's indeed I think it's a uh that's probably the I I watched the movie when I was young I was in college and it's such a lasting impact on me it's a we we are all ordinary people right and uh we are we it's hard for us to identify oursel being the smartest and the and the most savvy people in the Boom and we always ask ourself like then my M really matters and what can I do to make the can I really make the impact I think what I learned from that movie is by just uh doesn't matter who you are like what you do where you are just by giving a little bit effort doing the good things to people around you could be your family could be your community could be your your your friends and uh and uh and uh and you you can live a very very successful life and and sometimes it's a you never know it's coming what coming out of from this ripple effect and sometimes can end up in a in a in a in a in a big big impact right to the to the society I think it's like we all have a very short period of the time for we only have this one life I just encourage all the young people's to rather than only just uh uh put a lot of time to think about yourself and also think about people around you and uh and uh and think simply think about how to can what you can do to to make their life a little bit and end up I feel you could be by doing that you could be the biggest beneerary benefit most benefit from it. >> Well, it's a beautiful place to end. Uh big thank you, incredibly impressive and wow, what an interview. Big thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you for having me.