I was incredibly shy at school. >> How did a child who could barely speak end up presenting live on the BBC? >> And I got rejected from every single intern I applied for. I am talking hundreds hundreds of intern placements. And I made Nani a promise and I said, "Nanny, one day I'm going to tell your story. I'm going to get you on the news here." I think at school I was bullied. I was the Indian kid who had a mustache. I was always the hairiest girl. And as I was saying, I never really fit in. And I think I knew from a young age I had this voice from within. >> And I just didn't know when it was going to come out. And I knew I wanted to make something of myself. And I think at that point when I was getting bullied, there were a few haters. I almost used it to my motivation. Haters are your motivators. And I think even the family as well overlooked me. They just thought, "Oh, it's Monica. She's not talking. She's really shy. What value does she have? What's going on with her?" And my sister was incredibly confident and she was also really intelligent. She graduated as a dentist. And I also knew that my family wanted me to go a certain way and that was down that route, be a lawyer, be a doctor. >> But I just knew that I wanted something more than that. And I didn't want anyone to tell me that this is what you're going to do. I wanted to do what I wanted to do. And when I was in primary school, I was a bit of a loner. Had no friends, got bullied. But I think a massive shift is actually when I went to secondary school. And that's when we had drama lessons for the first time. And I remember going to my first drama lesson like, "Oh my god, this is really fun." Because we were reading, we obviously were acting. >> And just for a couple of minutes when I was on stage and performing, I really found my voice. And for the first time, I think it was about in year 7, I was able to speak loud and people were looking at me, people were listening to me. And that's when I thought, "Oh my goodness." So, I think drama really helped me come out of my shell. And also, I found secondary school really hard because you're navigating a completely different schooling life. There's new people, new teachers, you have to make new friends. And I really struggled making friends, especially at primary school. And actually, I manifested um there was this girl on my form called Ammon Amandip. Shout out Amundip. And there was just something about her. She was really cool. She was really nerdy. She was funny, but she was really popular. And I just remember I looked at her and all thinking, how will she notice me? How am I going to get her to be my best friend? And then I just manifested her as my best friend. And we became best friends. We became so close. And she really helped me just come out of my shell. I had got friends. I built confidence. I was loving going to drama lessons. And I think it was just secondary school where I just found that voice and realized, do you know what? I'm not going to be that shy girl anymore. >> Yeah. >> I can speak. I do have a voice. And I'm actually all right at talking. It's not too shabby. Right. And that's where I really started to come out of my shell and have a lot more confidence within myself. >> It's an amazing backstory, but in and amongst all of that, obviously, a lot of people will know you and your nani. >> So, how does she fit into the picture? And like, as this is going on, where is she and how does your relationship with her, I guess, develop as you get older? I think one of the reasons why I lacked so much confidence and I was really shy at school and I didn't really find my voice is because I come from a single parent family. So my dad left when I was about 1 years old and I was born in Birmingham and then after the age of one me and my sister then we moved in with my nanny. Um and my mom at that point she then left because she had to go and find work and it was a really difficult time for her because at that point everyone was judging a single mom. >> Um you always have people say make the marriage work, do whatever you have to do. But my mom knew her selfworth and she had to go away and she worked really hard because we needed money. We needed money. >> So whilst my mom went away to work, me and my sister were brought up by my incredible nani. And >> how old is she now? >> She is 93 years old now. >> 93 years old. And I almost think that me and Nani saved each other because just before I was born, my nana, my grandfather sadly passed away. He had a heart attack and it was awful. It was really horrific. It was a really, really sad time for the family. And Nani was down, incredibly down. and I came into her life and my sister came into her life and it gave her a reason to live again. It gave her a reason to smile and be happy and at the same time she also saved us because she was the one that brought us up. She looked after us and she did a brilliant job and my mom also did a really brilliant job. But I remember Nanny would get us ready for school and feed us dinner and all of that jazz. And at the same time, she would also be going to the gym. She'd be doing her exercises because that's another really good coping mechanism that she had when it came to grief. >> So that's how she started getting into the gym. So she was in her 60s. I know. She'd go to the gym every day. So she'd drop us off at school and then she'd go and work out >> and then >> sometimes in the afternoon. So whilst we were going to school, she was also learning English at our school. So if at primary school the head teacher would put on extra classes for women like my nanny who didn't really know English that well and that's when she first learned English and she was like oh my god this is brilliant. I'm actually really good. And she got so motivated and then she went to college and then she started getting all these certificates and she came top of the class and she'd have all these gold stars and it was amazing to see and you know I used to give her spellings and she used to give me spellings and we helped each other out. But Nani personally has just she's always been my rock. She has instilled some beautiful values in all of us and I am so incredibly proud of Nani. She came to this country in 1959. She is a partition of India survivor who then became a refugee in her own country India. And she of course didn't have a lot. Everything was left behind in now Pakistan and my Nana Gi came to England before her and that's when he obviously started working trying to get some money. There was that house share where you'd share a house. Yeah, exactly. and you follow all your mates, you follow your family members >> and um that's what my nanology did. And then my nani came over and she followed suits and it was really difficult living conditions. There was no privacy. There was limited food supplies. There was very limited money. But my nanny had so much belief that she is going to make this work and she is going to work hard and she will build a future and a family and she did exactly that and she was a um cleaner at Warick Hospital. So she was um actually yeah she was a domestic cleaner so she'd be cleaning the toilets and my nano gi he worked in a factory. He was sweeping up steel incredibly. It was really dangerous. It was really dangerous jobs. And >> and are we talking like Birmingham? >> At Lemonington Spa. >> Oh, okay. >> In Lamington Spa. Yeah. And it was, you know, it wasn't really well paid. And at that time, you face so much racism and essentially just had to keep your head down, keep out of trouble, go to work, do what you need to do, get the money, come back home. Yeah. And Nanny was pregnant as well. So Nanny has five kids. And at this time, I think Nanny was maybe pregnant with my mom whilst going every day doing night shifts, day shifts. you know, trying to make it work, doing a house share, and she was just one hell of a woman. And racism was bad. And she would always carry a weapon in her bag. She would because I like that. You never know. Their motto was right. >> If it's on, it's on. Go. >> Exly. And you've got to always be ready. That's how bad it was. >> Um, >> Nani is a proper fighter. >> She's a legend. She is such But also, you say fighter. She whilst working at Warick Hospital, she faced a lot of discrimination. Y um we obviously spoke about racism. >> So she just said enough is enough. I'm not going to take it anymore. I don't deserve this. I deserve better. So she led a group of South Asian women to an employment tribunal as well as Warrick Hospital and she won an employment tribunal where their boss got done for racism. You can dig that out. That sounds amazing. and discrimination and Annie fought for them and she did such a beautiful brilliant job and it's standing against it. That's insane. >> Yeah, exactly. >> She's a proper history maker. >> Yeah. It's all about injustice and and fighting against that and um she will always help others and then she won and then she became a shop stewardess at War Hospital and as well as being a working mom. The thing with my nanny, and it's something that is the same for that whole generation, is that they never talk about their problems. No. >> And they don't complain. My nanny doesn't complain. She has had such a hard life, but she puts on a smile and she gets through >> and she is a ray of positivity and sunshine and she lights up a room, but she never ever complains. And I didn't even know her struggles. I didn't really even know about the partition of India story. Ask about it. >> Yeah. And how she's a survivor. She has never spoken about it. And the only first time she did actually I was working at BBC Breakfast. So this was around 2017 and it was around the 70th anniversary of the partition of India. And I remember seeing it on the news and I just thought interesting. And at this point I didn't really know much about where I came from. >> Yeah. Yeah. We just crack on with her. >> Yeah. Yeah. You got you're focusing on Exactly. >> And I don't I remember it was Ginda Chada. She did that movie at Vice Royy's house >> and I went to take Nani to see that movie >> and um Nani just got incredibly emotional throughout the whole film. It was especially towards those scenes at the end where >> refugees would make it to the other side, but they were it was devastation. You know, >> countless people died, countless people were displaced and watching that archive footage, nani started crying in the cinema and I just cuddled her. I obviously didn't say anything then and there and we just cuddled and I held her hand and it was a massive trigger because then when we got home it just all came flooding out. Nanny told me that she was a partition of India survivor and she had to make that journey and it all started in 1947. So Nani was in Bloasthan Si in now Pakistan and Nani loved her life. Nani loved it and Nani would always say Hindus seeks some Muslims they got on so well. There was so much love. They would eat together. They would pray together. They would love one another. There was such a tightknit community. And very quickly things just changed incredibly quickly. And there are rumors of a split. India, Pakistan, India, Pakistan. And um for some reason though, Nani never thought in a million years it would impact her. You She was just in fairy tale land. >> A lot of partition survivors say that they're just like we we were hearing >> whatever rumors and stories and stuff, but we always thought it would happen over there rather than where we are. Yeah. >> And I guess no one really knows where the borders were going to be. >> Nanny was oblivious to what was about to come next. And very quickly the rumors became true and violence >> spread in the space of days. In the space of days. And Nani was 14 at the time. And Nanny would remember mobs in the middle of the night. In the middle of the night. And it happened on both sides. And they'd be knocking on the door. Knocking on the door trying to bring the house down. Basically ready to kill anyone who wasn't their own. >> Yeah. >> And Nani was terrified, but she still didn't really know what was going on. And my BG at the time, Nani's mom, Nani, um said that Beiji would take her to the neighbor's house next door. And the neighbors agreed to hide Nanny and they hid Nany in the chimney. Um and Nanny would say that she she held her breath because she was so scared because if they saw her, that's it. She'd get absolutely slaughtered. and she would hold her breath and not knowing if she's ever going to see her family again, not knowing if she's ever going to see her mom again, thinking, "Right, this is it now." And um her neighbors was called Muhammad. Muhammad Dala who saved my nanny's life. And they didn't find her. They didn't see her hidden in the chimney. >> And she was saved. She was saved that day. And that's the point where BG said, "We need to get out of here. we are not going to risk it. We can't stay here. We need to go to our nanny's grandparents house. And that was back in India, Punjab. So what they did was in the middle of the night, BG and some of the kids, but they didn't all go together. They went separately so they had more chance of survival because if they all got caught together, then what if they all got slaughtered? So they went in three separate groups and my nanny's dad stayed behind because he had a carpentry business. Business was doing really well for the first time. Nanny was thinking, "Oh my goodness, we've got money coming in." They were really set. It was a lovely childhood. They had friends, neighbors, family. It was just a place filled with love. >> And um Nani and Bey were the first ones to go. And um there were also two or three of Nani's siblings. And in the middle of the night they hid um in a lorry. So they traveled in a lorry uh to the train station. I think it was SBI train station and then they got another train and then they got I think they had to travel by foot. So there's a lot of walking involved. A lot a lot of walking. But also you didn't really >> have any food. You didn't really have any water because you didn't have time to pack. You were literally just wearing the belongings. >> You're surviving. >> Yeah. You Yeah. You were literally wearing the clothes that you left the house in. >> You need to get out. >> You just need to get out >> because your life was on the line here and she then got to the train station and um she then said, "We got on the train." And at that point, Nani faced death again because these trains were known for having people massacred when they get to the other side. So I think this was in Lahore at this point. And then Nani needed to go to Amoritza. And there were mobs on the train, standing on the train, swords, fire, sticks, ready to kill. Literally ready to kill. And Nanny, I remember her saying she just closed her eyes and she prepared herself for death. She goes, "You know what? This is it now." And BG, my nanny's mom, just, "What can you do? You're alone. You're terrified. You're sitting in the train carriage. You're just praying no one's going to make it on this train carriage." And the train goes, >> "Yeah." And then protecting her babies, protecting her babies, just praying, praying, praying, praying. And Vaguru, the train then just left. And so the mobs couldn't get on the train at that point. And Nanny was lucky because so many people were not lucky >> because trains would go back and forth with dead people on either side and it was harrowing. It really was harrowing. And these are scenes that Nani was all too familiar with. And then Nani arrived to Amritza, became a refugee in her own country and there was nowhere to stay. There were some food supplies. They had open kitchens for people who made that awful journey. But it was scenes like nothing Nanny had seen before. Tears, devastation, massacred bodies. It was people who have lost their kids, loved ones, mourning over the dead. And that is something that will stay with Nani forever. And while she was lucky and she survived, her sister did not survive. Her younger sister was about four at the time and she died. She died of exhaustion. She had nothing left to give. She had no energy. There was not enough food. There was not enough water. BG did whatever she could. >> And she just didn't survive that awful journey because it wasn't just a couple of hours. We're talking days. >> Yeah. Walking, getting transported. >> M. And um and then yeah they were homeless. They were homeless. And then eventually then other family members started to arrive and then Nani's dad arrived and then they made that journey to his parents spend together and that's when they started to rebuild their lives. But it was tough. >> How do you rebuild from something like that >> and that awful trauma? >> Yeah. Like how do you survive that? Oh, >> exactly. And I just remember that's the first time it was 2017 when Nani first told me her partition story >> which is what like almost 70 years after the event. >> Yeah. Exactly. And it was the first time and I remember I was just balling my eyes out because this is a part of our history that I was never taught about in school. This is a part of our history that the >> elderly in that generation almost have put to one side. They don't want to relive that trauma. >> Yeah. It was so recent. I had loved ones who died. >> Yeah. >> What nanny witnessed was something that I've only ever seen in movies. >> Yep. >> I can't believe this happened to my nanny, the person that has brought me up. And she always gets through the day with a smile on her face and never complains. Yet, this is so much trauma that she has lived through. But the one thing that really stuck with Nani was the fact that Muhammad Dah and his family saved her life. So then when they were back in the Punjab, Nani's dad, we they also held a Muslim family with them knowing that if they were caught then they would be in danger. Exactly. >> But neighbors saved neighbors. So many people didn't want this. Exactly. And humanity, humanity was so important. And one thing that Nani's dad always vowed to do was to repay that favor. And >> they ended up housing quite a few Muslim families over a period of time, feeding them, looking after them, hiding them in the chimney as well. It became a good hiding place. >> Um, and >> and that's something that will always stick with Nani. Humanity will always win. Love always wins. Obviously besides 2017, was there any other point prior to that that Nani had ever eluded or ever like touched upon her life before she came to England or was 2017 kind of the first and I guess the the watershed moment? I think 2017 was the watershed moment and then we went to Punjab actually towards the end of 2017 >> and we actually went back to um the partition museum in Amnuts and we went to the Hmind Sab the Golden Temple and it was such an experience and I am so blessed that I got to do this amazing India trip with my nanny and the First time I went to India, I was 8 years old. I >> It's a completely different story, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> I didn't know who I was. >> I didn't know my heritage. I didn't know my roots. And a part of me I didn't want to know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I was almost I think at primary school, I just wanted to fit in with my other schoolmates who were all like >> normal. >> Yeah. >> And then all of a sudden, I go to this new country and everything just feels so alien to me. And I just thought I don't want to be here. And I just didn't appreciate it. I didn't appreciate it the first time I went. But the second time I went was so so different. And it was a blessing. It was a blessing to explore Punjab, go to the Bend, go to the museum, Jalia Walabug. >> Oh my goodness. That really hit home. >> And you would have gone before they did all of the updates. They've updated it. And it's up. It's different. Yeah. Yeah. And um and then I remember crying my eyes out in this museum just going through extracts from newspapers, hearing recordings of what people were saying on the train, the panic, the urgency, the history of the partition. It brought it all back. It brought it all back for me. It brought it Well, sorry, it didn't bring it all back for me. It brought it all back for Nani. It brought everything back for Nani and it was incredibly emotional but really powerful and I'm so pleased that I made that journey with her. And I think if anything I came back to the UK and I was motivated more than ever to represent and to tell stories. And one of my first pieces for BBC Breakfast TV, it was 100 years on from the Amritza massacre. And I think it was it was 100 years. Yeah, it was the the whole piece itself was 100 years on since the Amritza massacre and the aftermath. And we ended up interviewing some case studies who relatives actually >> Oh, wow. >> died in the Jolly Walabber massacre. And some people were calling on an apology from the British government, but other people said, "No, it's too late now. What's an apology going to do? It is what it is." They just didn't want history to repeat itself. But at the same time, I didn't want people to ever forget this and the hurt and the heartbreak that it caused. And then that was a starting point really. I thought it's time to represent. And if we're not, then we're doing something wrong. And when it came to the skin whitening topic, >> so actually this was an idea that came to me when I was in my final year at university. >> So I was at University of Leicester. I was not jo enjoying my degree one bit whatsoever. It was so theoretical. I did communications. >> Oh, okay. >> And I just thought to myself, oh, I just want to do something practical. Drama. I really I knew exact drama. I knew I wanted to go into this field, but I just didn't know what I was doing. So, I thought, well, I've got to do a degree. Um, but a lot of people said, "Bit embarrassing, isn't it? Communications degree, Mickey Mouse degree." >> But hey, I went with it. And then I realized, oh my goodness, >> I don't know what I'm learning here. And it's just very different to what I thought it was going to be. >> And I got rejected from every single intern I applied for. I am talking hundreds hundreds of intern placements. I applied for a year straight and I just got nowhere whatsoever. Um so I thought right if I'm not going to get an opportunity here in the UK I'm just going to go abroad and I don't even know why that came into my idea because I hate flying. I'm scared of planes and I've never traveled anywhere by myself before. So it was my third year of university and I thought okay. Okay. So, through a professor, I ended up emailing this random company in Malaysia. And they then said, "Oh, okay. Hold on a minute. You want to go into journalism? There's this intern for a crime journalist for New Straight Times in Koala Lumpa." And I said, "Oh, fine. Okay. I'll do it. I'll do it. Why not?" Really random. Yeah. >> And literally a week later, I booked my flights. Um had my interview passed, got through and I was on a two month, three month placement with them >> in Malaysia. >> In Malaysia. Yeah. >> On your own. >> On my own. Uh different language. >> And how old were you at this point? >> I was 19 years old. So different language. Never left a different country before. Never. Never. So this was an experience. I thought at that point, >> I'm so sick and tired of these rejections and >> this is an opportunity. I'm going to make something of this opportunity. I don't know what's going to come. I don't know what's going to come out of it, but I'll take it. Yeah. I just needed something. I wanted something on my CV. I was just so desperate >> for a yes. And I am really grateful they gave me yes. And then I went to Malaysia, worked as um a crime journalist. Completely out of my comfort zone. But life begins at the end of your comfort zone. And that is an example. >> Did you cover anything like really interesting? >> Oh my god. My first >> crime journalist murder and like >> I shadowed this senior crime journalist and one of the first stories was a woman was discovered, a woman's body was discovered in the river. >> You need to go to a postmortem where potential family members are there >> and you've got to cover it and do potential interviews, build a story across it. >> Holy And I mean their editorial guidelines. Yeah, I know. I mean editorially is very different to what the standards are here in the UK. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> So you can you report on a lot more in Malaysia? >> Yeah, you can report on a lot more in Malaysia than you. >> Wow. >> It was a whirlwind. It was story after story after story, death after death after death, destruction, and it was non-stop. And um I managed to have some downtime though. So that aside, I remember going shopping in a gorgeous mall. They have loads of gorgeous malls in KL >> and I was in the equivalent to Boots Hair. So it was a beauty healthcare store >> and um this one worker in the shop just came up to me and said, "I think you need to whiten your skin. I think you should go for these products. I think you could do with >> using this cream. It was like a market in Malaysia. >> It all happened in Malaysia where I got told >> that you're too dark. >> Yeah. And I need to lighten my skin. Whether it was a ploy for me to buy these creams that she was obviously trying to sell me, but I was mortified. >> But there was a cultural acceptance of that. Yeah. >> And it was the norm over there, Southeast Asia, Asia, it's completely acceptable to whiten your skin. And I was a bit taken back. I thought >> I would be too. >> What? >> Yeah. >> Because I've always grown up thinking that I really like my skin color. >> It's Yeah. And I know I feel like Do you know what? I am a bit darker in comparison to some of the models that I've see on the cover of these magazines, South Asian magazines growing up because of course it's highly edited. There's it's airbrushed. And >> actually, let's be honest, the people in the magazines, they don't look like me at all. But at the same time, I've been proud. I'm so proud. I'm so proud to be brown. I'm so proud to be Punjabi. >> But I've never been told by someone at a beauty shop that I'm too dark and I need to whiten my skin. And I was so completely taken back. And >> I would not have expect I don't know why I wouldn't have expected it in Malaysia, but it like Yeah. I'm left for six. Yeah. Sorry. >> Yeah. And then that experience stuck with me. So then I came back to the UK, the intern finished and there was this competition called ITV Breaking into News and you basically had to submit a story idea and I thought, hold on a minute, >> let's do it on skin whitening because firsthand I've had this experience of a woman telling me I'm too dark. So >> that's my in. How can I investigate this further? And what is happening on our high streets? Are we selling illegal skin whitening products? Are people whitening their skin? How often does it happen? What's the obsession with fairer skin? >> So, I started developing this uh idea for this competition and I ended up getting through to this competition. I ended up being a finalist and then actually developing my story with ITV News and ITV Central. So, actually ITV News is yeah, they first trained me. That's how I essentially got into this industry and um I ended up filming it with a brilliant mentor at ITV Central and I ended up winning the competition. So we put this whole news report together. So I I found people who wanted to lighten their skin who actually buy illegal skin whitening products on the internet and we spoke to a doctor about the dangers of these skin whitening products. And at one point we did some filming uh I think was up and down SA road to find out where can I get these yeah where can I get these products from because it's it's hide of kinine essentially that's the illegal element in these skin >> which is a particular >> uh but it does exist it does exist in some products and um we got it tested and then the doctors were basically telling us about all the negative impacts of hydroquinine. There was mercury in some and >> oh it's like yeah but so many people don't realize the consequences and the dangers of these skin whitening products. >> So it was quite an eye openener and then I ended up winning this competition and doing my first ever live news hit at the age of 19 and it's still on the internet and it's so embarrassing because I was so nervous and stiff. >> So you're So you've literally kind of had the idea and done it all in like the space of less than a year. It happened so quickly. But that's when I knew and you know what I think God's plan because after so many rejections at university, you just never know what's around the corner because I took this intern in KL working as a crime journalist was terrifying. >> And then all of a sudden another opportunity came along. A competition getting trained by ITV News and doing a live on TV at the age of 19. And I just thought sometimes everything does happen for a reason. >> How did it first come to your attention? Like when did you realize that this was a story worth covering and there was more to this? >> Absolutely. It's an awful story and it was 2021 where I got a DM on Instagram from a content creator and she first sent me the links to this Reddit forum. I don't go on Reddit. I didn't use Reddit. I had no idea what Reddit was about. And I remember clicking on the link and I was absolutely mortified with what I saw because these were forums. And in these forums were anonymous users who were sharing nudes of South Asian women. And these explicit images, people requested them. And there were requests for phones to be hacked. There were requests for deep fakes, sexualized deep fakes. And there were also requests for, oh, why don't you slide into her DMs, maybe go on a date, see what action you can get, and take some pictures. So that's essentially how these explicit images were being obtained. And these are women that I've seen on social media. These are women who I follow. These are women who I recognize. And their private information was also being shared. So anonymous users would request what's their address, who are their parents, what's their mobile numbers, what's their parents' numbers? Because what they were also doing was blackmailing. They were ready to blackmail family, friends, or that person with these explicit images. And we didn't know who these anonymous users were at all. But all I could see were awful things, awful things being shared, written about these women and women, South Asian women were being targeted >> in particular >> in particular. Um, and that's when I thought this is bad. We need to do something here. And um, I remember first and foremost actually I I called the charity. I I called a charity >> because this is for me it felt it was criminal behavior. It was crazy. It was insane. I've never seen anything like it. And um the charity actually said to me it it's it's really common. It happens all the time and we are used to seeing this on a daily basis and there are countless other forums and it doesn't just happen on Reddit, Discord, Telegram, Snapchat and these groups would be there and then close down. Be there then close down and I guess it was a perpetrators trying to hide so they wouldn't get caught out because they knew what they were doing was so wrong. So I got advice from the charity and I said I really do want to make this into a story for BBC News and they gave me some advice and we spoke about the women and how to go about speaking to these women and then from then onwards I put a pitch together. I obviously spoke to um the content creator who sent me this link because also she was in these forums as well. I managed to do a bit more research, speak to some case studies and speak to a lawyer and then I put a pitch together and initially it got rejected. It got rejected quite a few times actually. Um and then eventually I took it to Panorama. I think it was a year later I took it to Panorama and then Panorama decided to commission it and yeah it was a powerful story and I don't think anything like this has actually ever been done before in mainstream news. No, >> there's never been a documentary where South Asian women are at the forefront. They are powerful. They are taking control. they are in control of their narrative and they will not be victim blamed and they will not be shamed. And we put that on mainstream TV and the response was massive because also in the documentary we found out who the perpetrator was. So who the creator of this group was, who was behind this >> and it ended up being a South Asian man. It ended up being a South Asian man. And was there any consequences for this individual? >> No, there wasn't any consequences in terms of criminal consequences. No. So, initially he didn't want to be named. He pleaded us to not show his face and to not be named. But at the same time, the women I have spoken to whose explicit images have been shared in these forums, >> they never got a choice whether they wanted their face to be shown or not. Yes. >> They're depressed. They're suicidal. >> What about the consequences on them? >> Yet the perpetrator made it about him. >> And I'm sorry, but you don't get to make that choice. >> True. >> And his level of wrongdoing outweighed it outweighed everything else. So, of course, we named him and we exposed him. And then 3 months after the documentary aired, we actually ended up changing laws around explicit images being sent without consent. And I still remember when the law commission rang me and they said, "Yeah, your documentary was a really powerful tool when it comes to >> that is amazing." >> Yeah. >> So you make real like you've taken their stories and you made a real life impact. Initially if say an exartner shared an explicit image but if they said sorry then that's not illegal because they are not causing intent to cause distress but now that's been removed as long as they say sorry but now whether you say sorry or not >> it's a crime. >> Yeah it's the common sense approach to it. Yeah, >> because that's what we discovered filming the documentary. There was a massive legal loophole and now that's been changed. >> And again, there was no legal ramifications for this guy. >> No. For the perpetrator? No. >> I know. >> That's like the worst. >> And it's sad because although the Reddit forums got removed and yeah, a couple of months later we did help to change the law, it still happens to this day on other social media platforms and it's so distressing and it's so frustrating and sad to see. During your investigation, did it come across as though this was like an organized system or was this very much just like the internet provided another space for weirdos to gather? It was anonymous users working together to break down South Asian females to target them for money. They know firsthand the consequences that this can have on South Asian women. >> Honor. >> Yeah. >> They know about the shame >> that it can bring. Yet they continued to do this and it was organized crime. They knew each other. There were connections. I remember studying the usernames of the perpetrators. They'll be talking about where they're meeting, where they're going, what they're doing. So, actually, they weren't that clever. They weren't that clever because they left a track. But what I don't get then is you as a journalist was able to look at everything that was there and put together a very tight >> story that then the law commission has used to essentially help change the law. >> How then do the police not look at that and go there's obviously something here? the police would say that they are stretched and they don't have the facilities to look into this and they would often and I remember when um I was speaking to some of the case studies they felt ignored by the police even though they had done the research we had done the research evidence was gathered >> they just felt like they were never listened to by the police because they don't have the resources is or they didn't have enough evidence. And quite a few of the case studies didn't actually trust the police. >> I don't trust the police. Just just full stop. I don't blame any of these women. Um and I think the other problem is also the police is the first step. If this then goes to court, you're then retraumatized all over again as a victim because >> you have to see the perpetrator. You might have to give evidence. >> Of course, It's it's a really >> difficult situation. But equally, you said that some of what you saw were people that you recognize. >> How did that impact then like the story? Because obviously as a journalist, there's a particular >> I don't mean distance in a cold sense, but there's a particular distance you need to keep with the story. But this is fellow women. These are people you know, and on top of that, they're not just people you know. You share like cultural sensitivities. is you share religious understandings like you understand as you were saying like honor and culture and >> the impact this can have >> and like how like did that feed into that or did you have to keep it at bay? >> It was really hard. >> I think I had to be professional >> at the same time. I'm a journalist and I'm a whole human being and I have a lot of empathy and I have a lot of sympathy. But I spoke to countless charities before making connections with these women because I needed to go about it the right way and I needed to offer the correct support and every single time I would speak to a woman. I almost kind of actually left my journalist hat outside because I needed just to be normal. I needed just to speak like a human being, a mate. Obviously these we follow one another on social media and I just needed to remove any barrier in order to just have these honest and frank conversations because it is incredibly diff difficult. But one thing I did have was charity support the whole way throughout who were amazing. And then off the back of all these conversations that I had the I would recommend them to then speak to the charity who would then put them in touch with therapists and counseling which was just so important and the work that they do is just invaluable and >> I think who if there's anyone listening to this who has had unfortunately a similar experience and is worried my first port of call would say please please please call the revenge porn helpline make touch base with a charity >> because they have systems where they can potentially remove these explicit images. They have the powers. They are doing God's work really and they also offer support, therapy, counseling >> and they can also connect you with other different people who have gone through something similar and they can really help you find your voice again and that's really important. At the beginning I said revenge porn but I think something that's come about from what you were sharing is that this is bigger than that. This is like it's almost like a collector culture in that people are requesting >> I want to collect this as though it's like a Pokémon and it's a game or something like ridiculous. What do you think that says about where we are as a society? And also what are some of the reasons for why this is so prevalent? It's really sad. It's misogyny. And I remember when we were investigating this, you spoke about collector culture there. And you're right because each woman would have a separate folder and if you click on their folders names, then it will be split up into more folders. sometimes explicit images, social media, private information. And that's exactly it. It's collector culture where these images and private information were used against these women in order to blackmail them, exploit them, belittle them, and it is incredibly traumatic. And I think it's just misogyny. And it's really sad the abuse that women face. It's incredibly sad. It's not okay. It's disgusting on a daily basis. On a daily basis, the hate >> existing >> from men. Exactly. Just for existing. They're doing nothing wrong. They're doing nothing wrong. And it's just it's it's literally it is getting out of hand. It's getting out of hand. I mean, I look through my DMs and I just think I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm literally just smiling, taking a picture, and all of a sudden I get >> unsolicited hate. >> I got a comment on my most recent Instagram picture saying, "Oh, another migrant. Get them deported." >> I just have to say your responses to some of the comments absolutely make me chuckle so hard. I can't remember. Maybe it was that one or another one. >> They threatened me with a good time. >> Yeah. I was just like, "This is I was like, this is such a clever way of like responding to them." >> Yeah. It's exhausting though. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're like, "Why do we have to put up with this?" >> Exactly. >> What do you think needs to happen to help alleviate these problems? Because, as you're saying, it's getting worse. >> I think a lot of people, well, a lot of the victims that I spoke to, a lot of the victim survivors said, "We need more monitoring on social media. We need more protection. We need more monitoring. This should not even be happening in the first place. If there is a request for a deep fake, stop it. It shouldn't even be allowed to be posted. It should be removed immediately. There should be filters. I think for someone who works in health tech, what's interesting is a lot of the conversations about like so far sake Australia has banned social media for under 16 and there's a conversation about that occurring in the UK. >> And it's often told you in a way of that it's authoritarian. They're going to take mass control and this and that and the other. But actually after listening to this, I'd sign up in a heartbeat cuz I would be more than happy to connect my, I don't know, let's say my driver's license to my social media account >> if that meant >> if someone abused >> whoever that was in whatever case there was a way to identify them >> because a lot of the time people are hiding behind anonymous profiles. They're not going to do it with their own name and their own profile, but they make anonymous profiles and wo here comes the hate. Yeah. >> And it's crazy. It's hate on another scale. And it's not okay. It shouldn't be happening. And there are a lot of survivors who want more government support. They want more monitoring on social media. They want it to become a priority. They want police support. They want to feel that they can be listened to. They don't want to have to do the evidence and investigating themselves. They want someone else to do it for them. And it's just having that money to invest in >> horrendous crimes like this. M >> how was it for you then approaching some of these women and these victims and survivors and talking to them knowing that actually their story could be part of this uh news coverage that will get wider attention because a lot of the time that's almost what like that I don't know whether the word is guilt or shame but that kind of keeps the victim from not talking out because they're like actually more people now know about it or the perpetrator might catch wind and like double down on it or whatever. So how did how did you approach that and like what was the point where these women went yeah I'm like I trust you >> I had a brilliant team with me so Ashne Lani was my producer director I had Nalani who was a producer and this was a film made by South Asian women about South Asian women >> and we all know the religious and cultural associations when it comes to doing a film like this and we're women so we can empathize and sympathize a lot. All of us were a similar age and the women who were impacted are a similar age to us and we could talk to them on a level. Exactly. And we traveled the country. We would be >> Oh, so this wasn't like an isolated like London problem. >> If I wouldn't reach out on my BBC email address, I would literally just DM them. I wanted to be as human as possible. I would meet them face to face. We would go for a coffee. We'd go out for a meal. We'll just do normal things. We'll go out for a walk. We'll go to the park. And building that trust takes time. It's not something that you can do in a couple of hours or days. It took about a year. It took a year of building trust. And then prior to that, it took me a year separately to build trust and to get these women to trust me. And even after all of that, I carried out my own individual risk assessments. And that's when I realized, okay, brilliant. You know, you've given me your story, but I don't want to put you in a vulnerable situation. So therefore, I don't want you on camera. But their story added value to this research and ultimately the investigation that led to us uncovering who the anonymous perpetrator of this forum is. Did any of the women like privately go out like take him to court or any was there anything that >> no really irritates me that he got away >> that happens all too often. >> So one thing that boggles my mind even more is that the material breaks Reddit's own rules. So Reddit's own rules say that you can't post stuff like this and yet women were struggling to get it removed. What is the what is the disconnect? Why don't >> why don't these companies care or it seems like they don't care and what what is the >> like what did you find from what you were researching? >> Yeah, we spoke to a social media expert and every different social media platform has a unique way in which it's monitored and with Reddit these forums were being created. They had monitors, but then the groups would quickly shut down if there were any red flags. And then another similar group would then reopen and then images would get shared in one Reddit forum and then there'd be another link to a Telegram website or a Discord website or Snapchat. Yeah. And then the forum would get shut down and it was just a constant cycle where one group shut another opened a link to another site >> basically in cattle. >> Snapchat. Exactly. And Snapchat was also a really notorious place where explicit images were being shared. And with that, it's 24 hours. The story is only up for 24 hours. So people make profiles, they then delete profiles, the it reaches so many people in that time. >> Would you argue the technology itself is half the problem? >> Massively. Yeah. Yeah. It's nothing like say when I was back at school. I don't think I would be able to cope if I had Snapchat back at school. I remember MySpace coming out when I was at school and it being like just um >> Yeah. Yeah. or high five or whatever and you would change your profile photo just because that's the only thing you could do, right? >> Exactly. Me and my best friend, we'd send each other love on Bibo every IT lesson >> when we were meant to be doing our coursework. >> Well, it worked out time. >> It worked out. >> Exactly. >> One thing that I was reading and correct me if I'm wrong, but it was a secondhand cigarette lighter that led you to the do the person who's behind all of this. Please explain. >> So, this is it just shows that these perpetrators just really don't think they're going to be caught. They've been doing it for a long time. They've been getting away with it and the law doesn't do anything. >> Yes. Exactly. It just goes to show how brave people are. So, the creator of this forum essentially put out on this forum that he sells lighters, I think. So wait, did he sell I think so. I think how it worked or I can't remember the itty bitty details. But essentially to cut a really long story short, he said that he sells cigarette lighters and then we pretended to be customers and we wanted to buy a lighter and then he said, "Cool. Well, here's my mobile number." And then we got a burner phone and then we were contacting him and we said, "Right, we'll meet you." It was that easy. It was that easy. And I remember we drove to Birmingham and then my producer director was the one who actually went undercover. They met him at a pub and then got the lighter and throughout this time we were filming and recording. >> Wow. >> And he wore a camera on his shirt, a hidden camera, and we got everything. >> That's nuts. And that's then how you obviously connected. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> obviously there was other bits that we had to do after. We had to verify the name, address, job, other social media profiles. So, there's a lot of verification involved, but essentially that's how we ended up finding out who the creator of this forum was. >> Have you ever been interested to see what's happened to that person? No, >> I can't find them on social media. They ended up deleting all their profiles, LinkedIn. And it's all disappeared. >> They had a LinkedIn. >> Disappeared from the face of this earth. >> I know. >> Did you realize at the time the uh documentary went out on Panorama that it would have the impact it would and help? Like did you hope it changed the law or did the law kind of just catch up and you were like, "Yo, this is amazing." >> I never anticipated the impact of this film. And when you're working in long form, you are so focused on meeting the deadlines, making sure the edit's okay, making sure you've done the online article, adapting the story to various other BBC outlets so people can keep across it in different formats >> that you almost don't think about afterwards what happens. And I remember it just being an absolute blur. And to this day, the online article that I wrote for that story was the most read BBC news panorama article of that entire year. And with that documentary, it was the first time that it went on BBC eye player at 6:00 in the morning. So the reach was massive. And that was almost like a pilot. And then after my documentary, then Panorama started putting out more documentaries on BBCi Player first instead of then having to watch it at what 7 8:00 on BBC 1. >> So it paved the way. And not just that, on social media, it did incredibly well because there's one thing me doing this with the forums that I can see on Reddit, but then there's another thing when people are watching it and then it's happening to them. >> And the number of messages I got from women, the number of messages I got from women who were saying >> oh my goodness, it's happening to me and I'm struggling. I don't know what to do. and they had no one to tell and for the first time they felt represented. They felt heard and they felt like actually there's hope because we managed to get these Reddit forums shut down. We managed to find out who the perpetrator is and we spoke to some brilliant voices including charities and then for so many I think they realized actually there's a light at the end of the tunnel here >> and um yeah I've never received messages on that scale. It was a lot. >> I do I I've done I think over 100 episodes and what I find fascinating about this is I could just never have guessed to that story like that. Like like I just find it insane how you've gone from like >> selfescribed non-verbal at like 10. You were growing up in a single parent household, but your nanny is the one who is essentially your primary caregiver. you make a random promise to your nanny that you want to be a journalist and somehow are convinced that you're going to and then do it after getting all of these like rejections and going to one thing that I think I've picked up though is that as you've been doing this you have carried the stories that you think are valuable and are dear to those around you. So like with your nani and partition with these South Asian women and the abuse and the crimes that have been enacted on them, there's obviously a resonance like how do you view that responsibility and how do you view that moving forward? Does it ever weigh heavy on you that you're in that position? >> It does and I have always looked at my job as server and nani has always said this as well. It's about giving back to the community who raised you. And I did a story with the one show and it was about the gorgeous women who wake up at >> 1:00 in the morning, crack of dawn, >> who go to Goodwara, who are completely under the radar. M >> they are so so humble, so selfless and they cook and they clean and they pray, they do their server. >> They keep the whole place moving >> always and they don't want any recognition whatsoever. >> And I remember when I came with the one show camera crew and I interviewed them and they were just like, >> "But we're nothing. >> Why are you trying to speak to us?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You should be speaking to the men, >> not us. >> Oh wow. Okay. I did not expect that. did not think that they were worthy of being on TV or having an interview. And that just made my heart sank. >> They wanted no praise. >> Oh no. >> At all. >> Best believe I gave them. >> Best believe I put them on that pedestal. >> And I just thought to myself, >> what an incredible bunch of women. But this is why I do what I do because these are stories that wouldn't necessarily be told if it wasn't for people like me who have these connections, who are from the community, who have the access. And for me, that's a massive privilege. And I think the industry is changing. Obviously, there's a lot more of us now. And it's great to see representation. It's great to see such a diverse mix of stories, but there is that pressure on you. And as you can imagine, I get countless of stories all the time, every day. And it is really hard to navigate my way through that. And I think news rooms are changing as well. And normally back in the day, it was a bit hard to get a piece based on a diverse community commission because there's just not enough diversity at the top for anyone to understand it. So why are they going to commission it? But things are changing and that's really lovely to see and I think we're all making a conscious effort that it doesn't just fall on one person. >> It falls on all of us because we're all here to represent but we have to represent the entire population >> and Nani obviously has been a massive inspiration to all of this and I and her PR basically the number of times remember I said I made her a promise that one day I'm going to get you on TV. Best believe I got her on TV. It was lockdown. >> Yeah. >> She started doing exercise videos in the back garden. Morning everyone. Today we are going to be doing this exercise and that exercise and she smashed it. It was what 202 videos of cute little exercises and next thing you know she was live on BBC Breakfast, live on Channel 4 News. ITV Central did a piece on her BBC Midlands Today. >> She went viral. I was her PR agent and then she did another interview during lockdown that was on BBC breakfast >> and I was the producer was running around making sure she was okay like do you want anything to eat? It was tea on tap. It was anything for nanny. She is the queen. And um I love it. >> It was just it was so funny but at the same time I was so proud because this is at that time I think she was 89. And I just remember thinking this is my 89year-old Punjabi gorgeous nanny who came to this country who couldn't speak English who would watch the news to try and learn English and went to the school at the same time as me to learn English. And now here she is sitting on a bench on national TV with millions of people watching her >> speaking English, >> doing a brilliant job and inspiring people with her gorgeous positivity and just leaving a really special mark on everyone, everyone who watches her and the audience. And I honestly had tears in my eyes. I was so so proud and um she's just a massive inspiration. And I just think if Nani can do it and look at everything that Nani has gone through and she never complains and she will always think she's not good enough or she doesn't think she's done a good job and she should have done better and if she could go back in time she always says I wish I had an education and that's why education is so important to us because education was power. When my mom was going through the divorce, a big reason why she made us watch the news is because education, because education is knowledge, knowledge is power. And she never wanted us not to be not in control. >> Yeah. >> She always wanted us to be in the no. She wanted me and my sister to be the best versions of ourselves. She wanted us to be invincible. And that's why education was so so important. and Nani worked as hard. She worked as hard and despite yeah okay did well at school you know A's A stars it is what it is I just knew I didn't want to go down that traditional career path I just wanted to do something else and I knew I had a purpose when I was younger I just didn't know what it was >> and then I just somehow found my voice I found myself and started on this journey and I haven't looked back and yeah it's been a bit of a whirlwind. >> You mentioned that you've done live TV and that you're going to continue being a news presenter on BBC, which I just think is insane to see. Like, it's it's so good. But >> I get nervous just recording a podcast. What's it like when you're having to do it live because if you sneeze, they're catch. It's like that. Oh, that BBC presenter who they did the the countdown and then she gets caught with the middle finger. Like it's great TV and she obviously takes it in her stride, but like what >> how do you get to that kind of state of mind where actually you're that comfortable on camera? >> No, you are doing an amazing job at this podcast. By the way, I'm learning from you. I really am. You're amazing. >> No, I take that. >> But I get that about live TV. I remember the first time I did my first ever live on TV and it's because a reporter was sick or something happened. >> Oh, so you weren't meant to do it. >> I wasn't meant to do it. I was on a normal day shift and then my editor said, "Monica, I think this is your moment. I think you're going to have to do the live tomorrow morning." And I said, "Yeah, I'll do it." I didn't even know what the story was, but best believe I'm going to do it. >> And the first time I ever did a live was on network TV. Well, I knew millions of people would be watching >> live. >> Yeah. And I didn't have an auto quue, so you essentially just have to look straight into the camera. And this was me reporting out on location. And I think it was around Christmas time. >> You don't have an auto. So you have to me memorize this. >> Yeah. So out on location, you don't have an auto key. When you're in the studio, you have an auto quue. So >> And it's live. >> So you got to do it once and it's done. >> Yeah. So I had very skills. BBC 1 6:00 in the morning, then you do it again at 7:00, then again at 8, and then I did the news channel hit straight after. >> What? >> I think I was about 25 or something at the time. I did not sleep before my first ever live. I was awake all night. I was so nervous. >> Aren't you tired? >> I was exhausted. I'm an adrenaline junkie. Why do I put in these situations? I love it. And this is what I live for. And I got there and I just remember feeling nervous but also really excited. And I knew the story inside out. It was something about Christmas is coming. There are lots of road closures. It was at the RAAC in Warsaw. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The grit and stuff, you know, and I had a guest as well. >> So >> So it's cold, you're tired, >> and you've got to memorize this and then deliver it live multiple times. >> And I knew I had an earpiece. So on one pack you have a mic and you put that up your you put the mic up your blazer you put that on and then you have talk back so you have an earpiece and this is so you can hear the gallery. So they cue you in when you need to start talking. So they do a countdown. They tell you how long you've got and then they count you out. So you have to keep within a strict time limit because you can't go over or under. You're going to ruin the program. Exactly. And you also have to listen to the presenter. So you can hear the output from the main BBC1 channel. And then >> is there a delay in that? >> There can be a delay. Yeah, there can be a delay. And you you've just got to go with it. At the end of the day, it's live TV. It's fun, but no one's going to die. It can be very nerve-wracking. >> And I did my first hit and everything was really fine. And I thought afterwards, I want to do this again. And I did do it again. I want to do it again. I want to do it again. And I just loved that buzz really. And >> yeah, you're definitely adrenaline junky. That's crazy. >> I know. I know. And then I just thought I I don't want this to end. And then after I worked at BBC Breakfast, I then got a presenting job at Look North up in Yorkshire. And that's when I was presenting the news live. So I was doing the breakfast bulletins and then I did the lunchtime news and the late programs. And then you just become used to it. And I remember one of my editors at the time when I was at Look North was like, "Right, don't overthink it. You're in the pub with your mate. You're having a chitchat. Be really casual. Just be you on air. And I think at the beginning, I very much thought that you had to be a certain way. You had to talk a certain way. BBC. >> Exactly. And that's what I was doing at the beginning. And I came across a lot more posh than I am. I'm a girl from the West Midlands. I didn't go to private school. I'm stay educated. Initially I had a Birmingham accent and then it's almost trained out of me a little bit because I felt like I needed to change who I was fit a particular fit in exactly >> and that's what I was doing >> and I watched back and I think okay yeah and I think once I got a bit more comfortable the more you do the more safe you feel the better you get >> I just thought I'm going to start being me now and I think I just started being myself I didn't put on an act and I felt more comfortable and I really enjoyed it and now I back in the day I was really nervous. I I remember thinking I was like praying to Bob beforehand like oh my god am I going to be okay because there have been times where the auto key breaks and then you just have to read off your papers or there's no weather and then I have to somehow adlib the weather. But things always go wrong in live TV. Always go wrong. But I feel like because Yeah. I've got the I've got through the worst of it. So now I'm just what what more can Exactly. And then when you do national news, I mean that's completely on another scale because I remember broadcasting live for about four or five hours. News is breaking. There's so much going on. You've got a guest. you don't necessarily know what this next guest is going to talk about because it's breaking stories and then you have to have that conversation and then it's going on air and the whole world is listening and watching in and that really >> made me the news presenter I am today because nothing has quite challenged me like it. What do you think, and you've got to answer this in like 30 seconds, but what do you think >> has been the key thing that you've learned from everything we've discussed? Like from >> But if you could actually turn around to 10-year-old Monica and say one sentence, what would it be? >> I would say don't give up. Believe in yourself. Keep dreaming. It will always happen. Don't change who you are in order to fit someone else's perfection or don't change who you are. be your authentic self and just carry on doing what you're doing and you are enough. And it what else would I say? >> What else would I say? >> Put these numbers on the wall. >> Oh yeah. And I think initially when I started this career, I did it for other people because I thought haters are my motivators and I'm going to do it because I'm going to prove people wrong. And now, no, I do it for myself. I do it because I know I have a purpose and I want to help others. And just stay strong, stay resilient, and don't let anyone tell you that you're not good enough or you can't do it. Back yourself. You deserve to be in that room. You speak loud, you speak proud, and you represent