He started um proposing to me two weeks after we met. So I mean it was always you know chill out mate and we used to get drunk and tell everybody we'd get married. It got really embarrassing and then we'd have to kind of walk it back and she just touched the back of my hair and she went you're pregnant. And I was like she said the whole of the back of your hair has just curled. Your hair is completely different. You're pregnant. I am pregnant. >> Did you have to tell people on set that you were pregnant? >> No. I was like shut up. you know when you go and you find out the sex and he said it's a boy and I said no it's not he was like it I mean it it is it's a boy and then the next we had the scan he's like oh it was the umbilical cord it was in the wrong place it's a girl I knew that was a girl I knew that was a girl that was a girl I had a head stuck between my legs for a month so I remember this kind of what just being like okay okay this baby has come out it's my birthday and I had this enormous scene and And I hadn't slept at all. And I remember turning around to the director and my neck cricked as I turned and I just sitting there sobbing and sobbing and people going, "God, you must be so happy." And you're like, "Have you tried ripping open your vagina recently?" I don't know. I'm not that happy. >> Are you ready? >> I'm so ready. >> Good. I don't know what's going to come out of my mouth. >> I'm so ready. >> Isn't that exciting? >> It is. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mom, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is an amazing actress. She started her career, she kicked things off with films like Bendit Beckham, Pirates of the Caribbean, Atonement, one of my all-time favorites. Uh, and her career has just, it's gone on quite the journey since then. She's just written and illustrated a children's book called I Love You Just the Same. She is a mom to two daughters. Today's guest, I'm so excited that you are here in front of me. It's Kira Nightly. Hello. Hi. Thank you for having me. >> We have chased you for quite a while, Kira, to get you on the podcast. >> I'm thrilled. I love being chased. I actually don't love being chased, but you know, let's not go there. But, but thank you. That's very sweet. I'm very excited that you're here. There's cake upstairs. There's never cake here in the studio. >> Is it just for me? >> It is. You're going to sit there and eat it all before you leave. >> I will. I I won't be allowed out until I've eaten all the cake. It's fine. I can do that. How are you? >> I'm really good. I mean, I'm really good. Yeah. >> Yeah. Are you excited about being on a podcast? >> I'm very excited about being on a podcast. >> Um I don't know what I'm going to say, but I mean, but I'm excited to to be here with you. >> But it's an interesting thing, isn't it? Because usually when you're sitting down to doing an interview, I know we're talking about the book today and stuff like that, but you are there to talk about a film that you worked on and you have a set amount of time and it's very driven. you want to get those things in. And um this is why I started the podcast in the first place actually because I think so often when you see people on sofas of like This Morning or Lraine or you know talking about motherhood you know that you're not there to talk about that stuff actually you're there to promote your film and you want to quickly go yes it's amazing move on. You know what I mean? You don't want people to >> you've got your nice little bit what your sliver of things that you're going to say and then you're moving on to actually trying to sell whatever you're trying to sell. It's true. >> So this is very different. >> It is very different. How does it feel? >> I mean, it feels good. I'm slightly apprehensive, you know, because Okay, this is where I'm apprehensive. We were talking about this before. You go I mean, there's such a lot to say. >> Yeah. >> And there's so many uh there's such a wealth of experience, but obviously for me, I'm very aware of being very careful not to, you know, go into my kids. I've got to be careful of like not giving away all of their secrets. >> Yeah. >> Um where and mom chats normally you do give away all of the secrets, don't you? because you're trying you give away everything because so it'll be an interesting kind of exercise of of speaking and not speaking at the same time. Speaking and not speaking, oh no, don't say that. Okay, say that. I was talking to someone yesterday because you are so private and you don't go on things like social media. >> Nope. >> This is going to sound really weird, but I feel like you've got free thought. You know what I mean? You're not stuck in an algorithm. You're not thinking, oh, this is how we say this. This is how we talk about these things nowadays or you know, things like that. You're actually able to just sit and deliver your own experience without worrying about these other things that are going on. >> Yeah, but maybe that's stupidity. Is that now stupidity? No, I think it might be because the world is now in those algorithms and actually I just have no knowledge of any of it at all. >> I think we all flock and we all worry about what we're saying. Okay. >> Whereas you you can just talk freely. >> Okay, fine. I'll talk freely then. Oh, how exciting. What trouble I could get into. Gosh. Let's go back to the very beginning and talk about your childhood because I know it was a very creative house that you grew up in. >> Yeah, it was. Um, so my dad was an is an actor was an actor. Um, my mom is was a writer. Um, and we lived in a very lovely house that they still live in, which is probably one of my favorite buildings ever, which says I have had a happy childhood, right? Um, it was all uh wooden floors and incredibly colorful and books everywhere. And my mom's garden is still one of the most magic spaces ever. She's done it all herself. It's very small. They were terrace Edwwardian houses. Um, but it's got rocks in the garden and it's got mirrors on the walls and it's like this magic kind of fairyland that she sort of created in the back. So, it was very creative. It was very uh and it was a lot of talking about stories. Um, it was a lot of they were, you know, both predominantly worked in the theater. So, and were obsessed by theater and obsessed by storytelling. So I I very much grew up with them discussing plays and books and all of that. >> And how did that impact you? Because obviously if you've got two parents who are freelancers Yeah. >> and coming and going and doing different things. >> What did family life look like in that way? >> Um well my dad was on tour a lot. Uh so he was away a lot and my mom worked from home. >> Um and so her office is a was a very brightly colored room at the front of the house. Um, and uh, and I knew the door was always open. >> Yeah. >> Uh, but she was always away in a story land in her head. And I used to get really angry that she was away in her story land and she wasn't there with me. And I was always like, where are you? Cuz you're there, but you're not there. You're somewhere else. >> Um, and I I think probably my kids recognize that a bit from me. you know, that kind of like I'm in a I don't know. I'm I'm here. I'm present, but I'm not. I'm somewhere somewhere deep inside my own head. So, my mom definitely had that. Um, but I mean, on a dayto-day, she literally, you know, she would take us to school, she would pick us up, bring us home again. We had friends that lived around the corner, so we'd be wandering around to them all the time. And, um, yeah, it was a good community. >> Yeah. Did it feel like a very creative house to be in? >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, definitely. Definitely. And it was it felt magic. it felt, you know, they really believed they were very much part of this kind of 70s uh left-wing theater scene and they believed they could change the world and so it was a very powerful thing to be a part of that like art and theater and that kind of creativity was important and political um and yeah I think watching them was extraordinary. Now the other side of that we we had a I'd say a middle class. I went to comprehensive schools. Uh it was a middle-class upbringing. Um but you know there were years where it was tough financially. So I definitely grew up with a kind of uh the financial instability that you get from freelancers who work in an artistic profession. Um, but I think also for my own career, it was sort of really helpful because I never saw I didn't think that the streets were paved with gold going into, you know, being an actor or being anything else. I always thought, you know, you probably have to do other jobs. Sometimes my dad was a taxi driver. Sometimes he worked uh you know he worked for a company called book data for a while and my mom would work she was terrible but she worked in a delicatesess and she didn't do that well at all but she you know and she'd work in a bookshop and so I I had a view of it as being you know that yeah you were a writer or you were an actor but also you might have to be a waitress and you might have to I had quite a real I mean I'm fortunate to have had a very realistic view of what it >> does the whole nepo baby thing then annoy you because I think it's it's a really difficult subject When you've got parents who they are working, they're jobbing creatives. You know, everyone is a jobbing creative and actually >> you might be around certain people, but you still have to deliver. You still have to have a talent. >> Yeah. >> For even to go anywhere. >> I don't know about annoyed. I mean, you know, I think I think I am an epo baby. I mean, my mom I mean, my first proper agent was because she was my mom's best mate and she's still my agent today, you know. So I mean I think it is true that there are connections that are made and and it's true that within creative families you know a lot of the actors I know it is generational >> and I think partly that is because it is a life it's a lifestyle it's a it's a way of life that is quite other from a 9 to5 job. So do you think it's more a case then that we have to change our view of how we perceive that the the even the word that actually it should be something that's not used as a a way to kind of go dismiss someone but actually kind of go that what's wrong with that? Well I don't know about that. I mean I I don't know I mean I I don't know. Oh, I think it's a similar thing to you know quite often builders you know I was doing a lot of house uh work on my house recently and it's a it's a family of builders right you know building companies it goes through generations doctors tends to go through generations you get a lot of lawyers all you know I mean I think you grow up in a particular environment and if you like the environment you grow up in you will gravitate towards that environment >> true you don't see a doctor whose dad's a doctor and go nippo baby >> yeah no you don't I mean or a builder you know work for your dad's company you know I mean but I look the the always the the the entertainment industry this very loud the noise around the entertainment industry and I think you know that going into it and you know um so if my children neither of them are showing any interest whatsoever but if that's what they choose to do then that's what they'll have to deal with and I'm sure they'll have an answer to it it will ultimately with every job no matter what it is you might have help through the door which is not nothing um but unless you bring the goods you're going to be chucked out very quickly. So, you know, I mean I mean that's just the way >> you knew that you wanted to be an actor from >> the age of three apparently. Yeah. >> Um Yeah. Yes. I asked for an agent when I was three. Um which I think has to do with the landline. We don't have landlines anymore, but I remember always picking up the phone. Loved picking up the phone. Um and it would be my mom or dad's agent and I was always like, "Why don't" and they'd say, "Hi, it's your mom's agent. Can I speak to your mom, please?" or something, you And I', why can't I have an >> I want someone to phone me? >> Why aren't they phoning me? Yeah. Uh I I don't know. But also, I it really was >> they talked about they talked about theater all the time. They talked about films all the time. They were They still are obsessed with storytelling, you know, and and I loved it. >> Yeah. >> And I wanted to be a part of it. >> I love that. What was life like outside of the house? >> I loved my primary school. absolutely loved it. Had my friends living around the corner. Uh got an older brother. We didn't get on until I was about 12 and then we really got on. Uh he's about 5 years older than me. >> Um you know, I remember playing in the street. I remember walking on my own round to my friends houses who were around the corner. Um I remember us climbing over fences into other people's gardens, you know, I mean, it was a proper suburban. Yeah. >> You know, yeah, it was it was very it was very h it was very happy. >> Yeah. >> Um I remember holidays in North Devon >> and hiding under like uh surfboards and eating bacon buties and loving hiding under the surfboards in the rain, eating the bacon buties and then waiting for it to stop raining and going surfing. And that was still, I think, the best holiday in the world. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah. So it was I'd say I mean normal my normal. It was my normal. It was very happy. >> I love that. Yeah. Did you enjoy secondary school? >> I found secondary school hard. >> I think hormonally, probably hormonally, I should imagine. But I think just it was bigger, like much bigger. >> And I couldn't find my feet in it at all. Socially, I found it really, really, really hard that just that move from a small school into a big school I found really difficult. And I don't think I ever properly recovered from that move and finding it too big. I found that really tricky. But it was a really good school, you know, and it wasn't I didn't have any particular problems in it or anything like that. It was just um I think I think it was literally just going from from a small primary school and I mean not particularly small like a completely normal primary school, but they are all smaller, aren't they? Into one of those big >> sort of comprehensive secondary schools. I I found it really tricky. >> When you were younger, did you ever look ahead to the future? I know that you saw, you know, you wanted to be an actor. Yeah. >> What about a mom? >> Um I never thought that I wouldn't be a mom. >> Yeah. >> So I didn't I I always thought I would be a mom. >> Yeah. >> So it but but I didn't class myself as like maternal. >> Okay. Or like I wasn't particularly interested in B like if somebody had a baby I wouldn't be like oh you know baby. Um yeah but I always thought I'd have kids. It's funny, isn't it? That that thing of kind of knowing is going to be there. Yeah. Whereas for some people it would be kind of like a no, I I know I want to be a mom and at some point that is, you know, I'll play with my dolls and be maternal and play and, you know, >> I definitely did play with dolls. >> Yeah. >> So, I guess there was that, but I just remember being sort of in early 20s or whatever. I mean, I wouldn't look at them and be like, "Oh, I want one of those." >> I'd be like, "Oh." >> Did that shift at all when you met James? >> No. again, we were always like, "Well, that's just going to happen at some point." >> Really? >> Yeah. Like he I mean, you know, in that in that way of I'm not I don't remember ever having a conversation about it. I don't remember ever, you know, but just that that was an obvious thing and there would be two >> and we were both kind of the same about it. It's like obviously we're having two kids at some point. Yeah. >> That's so funny. >> It's funny though, isn't it? Yeah. What about you? Did you have a >> Um I in my head it was three, but because I'm one of three. >> Oh, well, there you go. And I'm one of two, so two makes sense and he's one of two, so two makes sense. >> Yeah. Whereas I think I don't know whether because me and my husband have been together since we were 18. >> So I think there was always that sort of chasing of let's can we be adults? Do you know what I mean? So and also I think cuz it was at a time where >> I don't know maybe you know you're you're chasing that ring that commitment that whatever it is >> and and I think you kind of all your energy is kind of towards towards that. >> Yeah. Yeah. You see he we met and he started um proposing to me two weeks after we met. So, I mean, it was always, you know, chill out, mate. You're all right. Um, and we used to get drunk and tell everybody we'd get married. It got really embarrassing. And then we'd have to kind of walk it back and be like, "No, I think we Oh, God." You know, so it was just always sort of happening. I mean, it was always just happening. As soon as we met it was, you know, I mean, >> they feel different to any any relationship before then. >> I mean, yeah, they all feel different, don't they? Um, but uh, yeah, he's >> Yeah, I mean, it it was just always happening and we were always having children and we were going to get married. Did you worry at all about career? >> No, stupidly. >> Really stupidly. >> I guess for you, you've seen your mom and dad and although your mom was able to work from home, you've seen them do the career, have the children. So maybe you hadn't questioned how questioned it. >> Um and actually and she's proper secondwave feminist. You just get on with it. You just do it. That's what you do. >> You have the babies and you take them and that's what you do, you know. Thanks, Mom. Um was was it that simple? uh you know I mean I think she's a writer so she she was an actress and by the time I came around she wasn't acting anymore and she was just writing and she was successful as a writer. >> Writing is a very good thing for being a a parent. Absolutely. you know cuz you are working from home. You do have you know that that structure of that school day is very helpful to make you sit there and work and then the kids go and she said you know put you to bed and we had bedtimes and you know put us to bed and she said and I'd write afterwards and so she had good she had chunks and I can now see how that works you know quite nicely. >> 13 so it absolutely does work. >> Yeah, there you go. Although the chaos of the last couple of years has made me go >> I mean doesn't work >> chase the >> and co doesn't work I mean that doesn't work for anybody but that doesn't work you know so obviously some holidays definitely don't work >> that's a nightmare but you know but there are those moments where you're like okay that actually makes sense you can be a completely present mother and you and you can do the creative thing and you know which is which is great the acting of it makes it a little trickier >> so when you decided that the time was right to start Right. Did you decide that? >> No, not really. I mean, we decided No, not really. We decided that we would stop being so careful. Okay. >> And I was pregnant. I mean, literally then >> twice. So, it was quite it was both a shock and not a shock. >> Yeah. >> Uh I mean, I really we thought it I definitely thought, you know, we I'd already had friends who'd been having babies and some of them had had a you know, really tricky time getting pregnant. So, I absolutely thought I was like, you know, we'll just we'll just I was always incredibly careful, being very career-minded. I was incredibly careful and I was just like, >> I'll just be a little less careful. >> Boom. Were you in the middle of filming anything? >> I don't remember that. Was I in the middle? I was pregnant. >> No. God, isn't that funny? The second time I was, but the first time, no, I can't remember. Um, I was definitely promoting because I remember Imitation Game was coming out. Oh, actually, it was quite good timing. So, Imitation Game was coming out and there was a big Oscar campaign and when there's an Oscar campaign, you can't be filming at the same time. So, I wasn't filming. But, uh, so it was it was in that bit where I was suddenly pregnant doing an Oscar campaign. Yeah. How was that? The first pregnancy was, do you know, I had the great bit at the beginning. You're really sick. So, I was obviously trying to hide that, but I had that great moment where suddenly your boobs go. you're really look you're very thin but with these amazing boobs and I never had boobs in my life. I was like looking amazing. Uh and then >> this is my Oscar look. >> This is my Oscar. Yeah, this is this is incredible and then very quickly you know it all started um everything else started happening as well. I this the first pregnancy I felt incredible. Right. >> So, I was sick for the first trimester. Um, and then really got that famous sort of energy and like whatever the hormonal thing was. I just felt great. I was like the happiest I've ever been like >> extraordinary kind of I'm normally quite a kind of introverted. I find like parties and big gatherings I find all that quite tricky. I didn't have any of those problems. I was like out and just it was Yeah. I was I was again I I'd take a bit of that hormonal ride again from that first pregnancy. That was great. >> Really? >> Yes. And then >> there's always an end there. >> Did that sustain throughout the whole pregnancy after after >> sustained from the second trime trimester all the way through to giving birth. >> And how did you feel about birth? Because I know you did hypnotherapy for anxiety years before. Yeah. >> Had you looked into hypno birthing or anything like that? >> No. >> No. No. cuz when I saw you do hypnotherapy, I was like maybe Yeah. No, I didn't. I just went cuz you did. You said you did, right? >> Um >> I very str I I was just I didn't connect to any of that. I didn't connect to any I was just very much like >> she's got to come out. >> Don't care how she comes out. >> Yeah. >> I don't I didn't connect to a kind of it has to be natural. I didn't connect to I wasn't scared of it. I was just like one way or another I have to survive. She has to survive. She has to come out. >> Yeah. >> I don't care how. So, I didn't have like a birth plan or I didn't have, you know, I vaguely said, "Yeah, sure. If there's some water, that sounds like that might be nice." >> So, there was I was in a suite with a water thing. Didn't get into it. Um, but I was very non-connected to an idea of control. >> Yeah. >> Um, or an idea that Yeah. I just I didn't feel like I wanted to dictate anything. I just felt like I have no idea. My body's going to do something and we both have to survive and that's it. >> Which means that you weren't married to it looking a certain way either. >> I was not. And actually now I'm pleased that that was the case cuz a lot of friends had that and then they felt like they'd failed. And maybe actually that's why I hadn't because I'd already had a couple of mates who'd been through it and had that it's got to be natural. It's got to be this. It's got to be that. And then it had all gone wrong and and the worst thing was that they felt like they'd failed. >> Um so I had seen that with a couple of mates. So, I suppose maybe that was why I didn't. I was just I was just like, it's just got to come out. >> One way or another, she has to come out and I don't care how we get there. That's >> Did you find out that you were having a girl? >> I knew I was having a girl. >> Really? >> Yeah. Both times. >> Really? >> It is a girl. It there is no And actually with my first pregnancy, uh we did the you know when you go and you do you find out the sex um and and he said, "It's a boy." And I said, "No, it's not." He was like, "It I mean it it is it's a boy." And so we had then until the next scan my husband going, "You've got to stop. You've got to get your head around the fact this is a boy." I'm like, "It's not a boy. It's not a boy." It's like, "The doctor has said it's a boy. It's not a boy." And my mom's a bit witchy, too. And my mom was like, "It's not a boy. It's it's a girl. It's not a boy." And uh and then and then the next one we had the scan, he's like, "Oh, it was the umbilical cord. It was in the wrong place. It's a girl." I knew that was a girl. I knew that was a girl. That was a girl. I mean, imagine if you spent that time getting your head around the fact >> I did. I I did try. I mean, I wasn't completely insane. You know, well, I was completely insane. I was like, "Okay, let's I mean, I don't care either way. So, let's have a couple of boy names." We had a couple of boy names and I was like, "Maybe I could get into, you know, I'm to again didn't care like whatever." Kept going, "It's a girl. It's a girl. It's a girl." They were both girls just, you know. Yeah. I don't know. You know, I had no Yeah. And and then James was really worried cuz he was like, "Oh my god, it's a boy and now what you and you can't get your head around it. Is this cuz you don't want a boy?" And I'm like, "No, I'm fine with a boy, but it's a girl." >> It's not that I don't want it to be a boy. It >> just isn't. Just doesn't feel this feels girl. Anyway, it was a girl. >> It was a girl. It >> was a girl. >> How did you feel heading towards the birth? >> Did you feel nervous about it? >> I was convinced she would be early. >> No. For no reason. Yeah, apart from that my mom said that we were both a month early, but my mom's quite scatty, so possibly she just got that wrong. So, I was convinced that she'd be early, she wasn't. Uh, she was 3 days early, I think. Um, and then because she was 3 days early, she felt late, but she wasn't a month early. She felt late. >> Yeah. >> Um, so I was No, I both times I don't know why I was not scared of it. I just felt like I felt like it was fine. Yeah. >> Um, and maybe you do, maybe you do know because again, I think I've had mates who they felt like it wasn't fine and they were right, you know, and um, and I felt like it was fine. There were she was engaged for like a month before she came out, though. I think that's also why I was like convinced that she was coming out, you know, she was it had a head stuck between my legs for a month. So, I remember this kind of just being like, okay, okay, this baby has come out. Um the second pregnancy was very different and the uh well not very yet but yeah but I had sciatica for the she'd sat on one side in a ball and I kept I had massages trying to like get her to move over because all of the pressure then on the back as she grew and she absolutely wouldn't you'd feel her kind of go you know moving out from her little and then going almost like scurrying back to that one side and being curled up again. So my back was just in pieces. So I was like a very angry hippopotamus. >> Well, that one as well, you've got the first one to look after at the same time. >> You've got the first one to look after at the same time, which is a whole other scenario. So yeah. So the first Yeah. First one, super happy. Super great. >> Especially if you're not filming, you've got a bit of pro, you've got promo, you've got the Oscar, big things. >> Big things. Yeah. >> But essentially, you're not on a grueling filming schedule. You have a bit of time. You can have all the naps. You can have all the prep, all the stuff. >> Yeah. But also like you know you just don't have other kids to look after so you're like what are you I mean you're getting a pregnancy massage you're seeing your mates you're going out for lunch you're you know doing a bit of work here and there but I mean no it was totally great. Playing one is a second one with a three-year-old was a whole was a very very different scenario because it was um I was so I was filming the second time filming up until I was about 3 months. >> But it was it was literally like I went from not pregnant to 5 months pregnant really within 5 seconds. >> So I had none of that, oh don't I look glowing and lovely and this is all lovely and look at my boobs. It was like my ass just expand. It was like I was carrying the baby in my bottom. I was like, I don't understand. Like it just my whole body just went like it was it was astonishing. So um >> what were you filming? >> I was film What was I filming? I was filming um Feminist. What was it called? Misbehavior. >> Okay. I was filming Misbehavior which was about the storming of the Misworld competition. >> Okay. >> By second wave '7s feminists. Um, so I was filming that and being violently sick. Um, running off, obviously not telling anyone. Actually, what was amazing was I I So I was about 6 weeks pregnant and I obviously not telling anyone. Totally knew, felt awful. Um, and my hairdresser, do you get your hair and makeup done every morning? You know, going into the hair and makeup and she just touched the back of my hair and she went, "You're pregnant." >> And I was like, "What?" She said, "The whole of the back of your hair has just curled." She said, "Yesterday it wasn't curly and today it's curly and it's proper cur like proper proper hard curls. Your hair is completely different. You're pregnant." I was like, "I am pregnant." And it's true. It's like I've now got a funny patch at the back of my hair. Yeah. >> Which is totally like zigzag curly from this second pregnancy. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So, isn't the hormones are weird? That is weird. It's weird. >> Did you have to tell people on set that you were pregnant? >> No, I was like, "Shut up." >> Really? >> Yeah. Shut up. Very early. Shut up. She was like, >> "You didn't drive for the bottom." >> Uh, I did start expanding obviously. But fortunately on film sets, everybody's just eating junk food the whole time. So, everybody's expanding. So, I don't think I think they were just like, "Wow, you need to really start." And I was also I was eating I was eating ginger biscuits because that was the only thing that made me not feel sick. Yeah. >> So, they were obviously watching me eat all of these biscuits being like, "Come off, you're going to get bigger if you're eating the ginger biscuits all the time." So, so they didn't say anything. Maybe they did know, but they didn't say anything. >> Oh, bless you. >> Yes. Anyway, so that was Yeah. And then So, yes. And then I think cuz my first kid did not sleep. So, still by the time she was three, she was not sleeping through the night. Um, so >> that's hard. That is hard. Yes. That is Did you have one like that? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And then I had the second one did sleep and it was amazing. And then I decided to put them in a room together which meant that then >> neither of them slept. >> It wasn't actually when they first went in the room together. Mom would have night terrors and they wouldn't wake the other one up at all. >> It was the getting to sleep that was the big big thing. >> See, mine would always she'd get to sleep but from midnight she'd be awake. >> Wow. >> Just awake. Um so how old was yours when they finally slept through? >> Do they sleep through now? >> Yeah. Now we have to wake them up. It's amazing. >> Very very different thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Those hormones. Yeah. So uh Yes. So she didn't sleep until she was five. Uh but uh but so I think because I was then pregnant when she was three, I would literally she was at nursery and I'd send her to nursery and I'd crawl up in a ball and I would sleep the whole day she was at nursery. And I remember even making those days longer because I would literally just be and I think it was very much my body just it was like my body went into shutdown. >> Yeah. >> Um and I've never experienced tiredness. I mean there's the obvious tire because the kid doesn't sleep anyway and you haven't slept a full night in 3 years. >> But it was it it was like something chemical in my body just shutting the whole thing down and making me sleep during the day. So thank God for nursery. >> Were you worried when the when the second one came along then the fact that you still you already had one that didn't sleep? Yes. I thought I might die. Uh thought I might die. Uh yeah. Um yes. Uh and my second is I mean and from the get-go. Love sleep. I mean she literally she slept through. She was one of those babies that if you have a non-sleeper, you hear about these babies and it makes you want to kill the parents. Um she slept through from four months. >> She just she loves it. She still loves it. Yeah. I mean like you go it's bedtime. Oh good. She just loves it. She's like this little I think also she's a thumb sucker, >> right? So, she's got her own comfort attached to her >> and literally that thumb went I mean I swear she was born with a thumb and she wasn't but you know I mean it was like she found it so quick. Um and I think that just made >> we went through a I mean I feel like we had years where we just like I don't care where anyone sleeps. >> No, just as long as there is some sleep. >> I don't care if you have to get into our bed or we have to be in your bed >> just as long as everyone actually sleeps. No, I think I slept in Ed's bed for, you know, years. It's a miracle we had the second child. Um, yeah, I mean, you just it's it's it's very very intense that non-sleeping. I mean, you go mad. >> I I was doing a film called Official Secrets in Leeds, and for some reason at three >> she really Yeah. She really just went through a period of it was like a complete regression to I mean every hour on the hour it was you know and I I just remember it was my birthday and I had this enormous scene and I hadn't slept at all and I remember turning around to the director and my neck cricked as I turned and I just sitting there sobbing and sobbing and sobbing and you know and you're just like oh this is sleep deprivation to like oh she was always fine she was so happy she was like she's got a daytime nap. Not a problem. Yeah, she's good. She's got that lovely, you know, she But I think that not sleeping, trying to work >> thing is very >> hard. >> Well, cuz you just don't know how you're going to function. >> No, I mean, I don't think you do function, >> especially on something like a set where you've got I mean, obviously different pressures, but when you're on a set and other people are relying on you to just and you're used to going there and being prepped and just >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a No, it was it was a very Yeah, it was a fiveyear period of very I mean I I don't think I realized how I'm saying mad. Mad is probably but uh Oh, no. The only word I can find is mad. I think I was mad for about 5 years. I think sleep deprivation makes you go mad. And it's only when it finishes and you can suddenly look and you're like, "Oh my god." I mean, my emotions were up here, you know, and my bandwidth for dealing with things was like >> this big, you know? So it was sort of I could kind of go in a straight line. I could learn the words. I could do the thing, but it was it was like gripping on with fingernails, you know. Um, so it is just it's night and day if you have a sleep. >> And it's having something that's completely out of your control as well. You know, you're able to before becoming a parent control to a certain extent. You you control, you know, how you sleep. You can control so much and then all of a sudden >> or if you don't sleep, it's the really stupid one. I love it when I hear people say this. It's like, oh my god, you know, I've been a partyier since whatever. I know what no sleep is like. like, "Bless you." Oh, no you don't. Uh, yeah. I think just that never being able to catch up. >> Yeah. >> And I think literally when she started going to nursery when she was three, >> that was that that was when I could finally actually sleep cuz up until then I wasn't napping. I was working all day or I mean not all the time but you know I was I was definitely not napping during the day. So it was a really interesting thing. It feels like your body just >> your body does what it needs to protect you, doesn't it? Maybe maybe um I'm basing that on nothing other than my own experience, so maybe it doesn't, but that's what it felt like to me. >> I used to um when the kids all uh you know were uh well when it was daytimes and I knew I shouldn't be napping, I used to go and nap in their bed because it makes used to make me feel less guilty. >> Oh, that's an interesting one. >> Yeah, that's it. I got back into my bed. It made me feel a bit >> No, like I'm being lazy. Yeah. No, I do. You know, I never slept in my bed. That's interesting. It's always on the sofa. So I'd be sat there kind of going, "Oh no, I'm sure I'm reading a script or doing something and just like, you know, have caught curled up and suddenly would wake up and it would be the end of the day." >> I'd hear Tom in his music room sometimes playing something on the piano and all of a sudden it would stop and I'd go in to his his office and he'd literally be starfished on the floor just completely wiped out >> like wow is like there is nothing that sleep depriv and also the and you see you look I'm completely through it. They both sleep. They're 10 and six. It's all kind of, you know, >> I see all my two of my best friends, they both happen to have two-year-olds right now. >> And um neither of them sleep through the night. And and I it's the look, the panic, the the panic, >> you know, and people say, "Oh, you know, it's just being a mom and you're like," and I just remember reading articles at the time of being like how important sleep is. You must get your eight hours. And being like, "Fuck you. I would like to I am trying talk to her. >> But that's another pressure, isn't it? All those things we're told that we should be doing. How am I meant to fill this into my day? How am I meant to sleep when I've got a child who doesn't >> who doesn't sleep and doesn't seem to find it a problem that she doesn't sleep but doesn't sleep, you know? I mean, it's I don't have no it's it's it's it's such a particular form of um crazy torture. >> Mhm. >> Torture. >> Um and uh and the panic in in parents' eyes and you just now having come through the other side, you you want to it it will end. >> Yeah. >> But when I say when my kid was five, it doesn't make anyone feel any better. It's like, especially my friends with two-year-olds. Hey, don't worry. You got another three years to go. It's going to be all right. Have a lot of gray hair, but it's going to be all right. And people mean to they mean to be helpful, >> but they go, "Have you tried a sleep routine?" >> And you literally want to You want I mean, I've never felt rage like the Have you tried a sleep routine? Have you just tried putting her to bed later? You think I haven't tried all of the things? You know, >> you just have I think they come out the way they come out. >> You know, you get a sleeper, you don't get a sleeper. I feel actually very fortunate that we >> that we got the non-sleeper first because there was at no point going into the second one that we thought we were good parents. >> We hadn't made that mistake of going, "God, we're really good at this." you know, we were just like, um, yeah. Uh, and then and then just happened to get happened to get the I like sleeping one. >> And can I just say for all of the people out there, parenting is easier if you have the sleeping child. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Like it 100% if you've had a night's sleep, you can deal with anything during the day. >> If you have not, everything is hard and that is not your fault. Yeah. I feel very important like it's very important to say that because you know I remember at the time looking at mates with babies who slept and they were so glorious. They were dressed well. They look great. They were having a lovely mother and baby time. You know it was all lovely. And you're sitting there going, "Look, I'm so lucky. My daughter is sensational. She's like all of the wonderful things. But I'm in pieces. And how are these women not in pieces?" You know, and you go, "You're not in pieces. You haven't slept in. >> But how does it feel like looking back at that version of you and kind of going off, oh did you feel like you could talk to people and go, "This is hard." >> I'm really lucky. I had a couple of really good friends. Uh, and also my mom had two non-s sleepers. Um, so >> so you were one of them? >> Yeah. My brother for six years and me for two. >> Okay. >> Um, >> so you didn't deserve five years. >> I didn't deserve five years. I think actually maybe I'm lying about two. Maybe it was a bit longer. Actually, no. Do you know what I'm lying? Because I always used to get up in the middle of the night and I distinctly remember I would get up in the middle of the night. Their room was on the top floor. We were in the middle. I'd get up. My dad literally not even awake would get up and he'd go down and he'd finish the night in my bed and I would be up there in my mom's bed. And that was until I was six. So actually me saying so okay I didn't sleep. I'm I'm just like um I didn't >> retract >> retract. So they had two kids that didn't sleep until they were six. And when I did get when I told my dad that I was pregnant, he he went comeuppance and he might have had a point. I was like, "All right." Um, but yeah, it's Yeah. >> Was there a point within that 5 years where you kind of felt worried that it would never end? >> Yes. >> Especially if you're feeling that anger and that kind of >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, you do. You could because it yeah it feels that kind of sleep deprivation feels endless and that and therefore that kind of >> within your own brain sort of feeling like somebody's putting their nails down a down a blackboard you know that that kind of thing. >> Um yeah because you don't know when it's going to end. >> Yeah. and and you know and and it becomes your life right it becomes so you become and you also think am I always going to be this short-tempered are we always gonna be this you know and and you're like and everything I I mean I think from the birth my body didn't heal very you know there was I mean actually it was very straightforward but I got induced and then I took all the drugs did then tear so had stitches but the healing was really it really but you're Of course you're not going to heal. You haven't. There's no chance to take a breath. There's no chance to heal, right? You're just on it from the moment they come out. Like >> you are on it. >> Yeah. I mean, it's not the best place to have stitches to be fair. >> It's not for sitting down and chilling out. I mean, it it's >> for anything. >> For anything, you know, it is not ideal. >> If you're sitting, if you're moving, it's just not great. >> Anything looking after a child the whole time, you know? I mean, it's not it's not ideal. I can remember walking on various times and just feeling a like a um like something had been caught like caught. >> Oh that Oh my god. >> Yeah. Not great. >> Oh god. Pads and the thing and the and the Oh god. I mean it's so awful. >> It's so awful. And people going you must be so happy. And you're like have you tried ripping open your vagina recently? I don't know. I'm not that happy. Um, but again, very lucky she did come out the way she was. >> Well, let's talk birth. Let's talk birth. Where were you when things kicked off? >> I was um so because I'd felt like she was late even though she was early. I'd been walking. I'd been walking and eating. >> Try to get her out. >> Oh my god. I'd been walking that child out. So at that point I lived in Islington and I was going to Relle Canteen uh for lunch. >> Mhm. >> Um which is in East London just up the road from here. Um and I was like we're walking fine. Okay. My husband I walked all the way to Relle Canteen. We're having lunch with uh with friends. That's like about a mile and something. Um and I had two puddings cuz they were great. And I was like right great you know three course meal. Two puddings please. Great. And I had a hospital appointment after that. >> Right. >> And um I was like I want to walk to the hospital. Uh and that was in the center of town. And so that was another two and a half miles. >> Did you have your hospital bag with you the whole time? >> No, cuz I wasn't meant to give birth cuz I was early. So it was still 3 days before my due date. >> Um but I had like the checkup. Um and so uh so my husband was like, "Okay." So we started walking and on Clark and well road I thought I'd piss myself and um and I was like I'm not getting a cab because I well no I said to him I was like either my waters have gone or I've pissed myself and he was like okay. >> Did you feel anything pop or did you just feel a trickle? >> It was a trickle. >> Okay. >> Um and again like you know it's the funny I didn't know what being in labor felt like. So I was like I don't know. I've had a child wedged between my legs for a month. I mean it all feels pretty weird. I don't know. So, I've been having actually now what I understand were actually really early contractions but for like about two days but I just I mean it all felt honestly she was wedged between my legs. So, I was like it all feels weird. I don't I don't know what's going on. And I had this hospital appointment and nothing felt like it was dangerous. It just all felt weird. >> So, we're walking now from from where is it? Clark no from up there. I don't know along the Clark and road. Um and I feel this trickle and uh and my husband's like let's get in the cab and we're going to get to the hospital. No, no, because I'm too vain and if if I've pissed myself, I'm going to smell of wee and that I'm going to be in a cab and the cab driver will then be like, "You've pissed in my cab." >> Tempted to get him to sniff it just to see what it was. >> Well, I didn't think of that. Should have done that. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing. But I was also just I felt like I had so much energy. So, I was like, "No, we just keep on walking." So, I ended up walking. I'd walked the one mile to there and I walked two and a half more miles to the hospital. And I got in there. I was quite flushed and the doctor was like, "You're right." I was like, "Either I've pissed myself or or my my waters have gone." And she said, "I'm going to going to have a look. You're in labor. Your waters have gone and you're in labor. Are you okay?" And I was like, "Yeah, fine. Great news. >> Great news." Yeah. She's like, "It's super early days. Why don't you go back home and get your bag?" I said, "Fine." Walked all the way back home. So by that point I think I walked over five miles that day and then my husband was finally like we are getting a cab to the hospital when we were going back and then we went back and then actually so I was sort of it was contracting everything but I wasn't dilating so they ended up she was like it was the backwaters that had gone so there's a particular amount of time like we're going to induce you again I had no I was like >> do what needs to be done. >> Yeah. >> She said if you're being induced my recommendation is take all the drugs. It was like absolutely fine. Totally fine with taking all the drugs. I took all the drugs. I was induced. I mean, I think she was out with out within 45 minutes. >> Really? >> Maybe an hour. Yeah. Uh uh but I had split. She was back to back. Um so, so you know, I think that it's a really weird one that when you've taken the drug, I mean, thank God. Thank you for the drugs. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm all great. Um, but I think the recovery because you haven't felt it is incredibly confusing. >> So the battered nature of my body afterwards, I think that was it was just it didn't make sense. I remember the kind of hormonal crash. So I'd been on this kind of amazing hormonal high and there was a crash down. Um, and I think then it was postnatal depression for, you know, I did like lots of therapy about a year later, a couple of years later to sort of deal with all of that. But, um, but I think it was confusing not having whatever that physical side of it was confusing. Now, I would not say don't take the drugs. I'm still like, you know what, I'm all for you do you. You do what feels right for you. It's all but that side of it for whatever reason for me was I found it very difficult to kind of connect with what had happened physically to me probably because of that. Well, it is such a it's such a huge thing that's not really discussed, you know, and and you a hu wrote an amazing essay actually in feminists don't wear pink about that time >> and about how raw it is and you know and actually there's no way that you can prepare anyone for that. I think it is something about being in it and feeling it. >> No. And you don't you just don't get it >> until you've experienced it. And it doesn't matter, you know, even these two really close friends of mine, they've got two-year-olds now, you know, they'd watched me and their other friends go through it twice, you know, and still on the other side, they're like, "What? Why didn't you tell me this? >> Why didn't you tell me anything? I've been telling you for years, you know." um you just don't you you don't have the you you you you don't have the imagination to understand I think what what it is and what physically it is and what mentally it is and you know where you're going to be where you feel just I mean I just remember every I could hear the trees felt too loud >> you know I could I everything felt like I was in a whirlwind of like a wind tunnel of you know just experience and emotion and you know it was it was huge even though I hadn't felt what had actually happened you know I hadn't been through the pain of what that was I mean I'd been through the beginning bits but >> but you also were very aware of what's happened to your body >> yeah I mean I was very pre you know I was very present >> so knew what was going on obviously but >> but yeah that recovery and also the non-reoververy right the the >> but I just need to get some sleep Yeah, >> like yeah, if I could sleep for 2 weeks, I'm pretty sure this would all heal really quickly, but there wasn't any sleep for 3 years, you know? So, and that's from a completely normal birth where actually it was all fine, you know, there were no major things that was totally actually it went pretty well for a first birth. It wasn't the kid was fine, you know, I was fine. It was all fine and still within the everything was completely fine. it's still this huge huge lifealtering thing has happened >> and at that point I felt like the public discourse around it was great can you get back in your jeans yet right back to work you know nothing's happened carry on you're going out you know all of this kind of like like it felt like there was no discussion >> and no interest and no it was just like when are you getting back in your jeans what you know I'm on a different planet. >> I've just traveled from one planet to the other. I don't care about my genans, you know. But um yeah, it felt Yeah. What about the fact that I I think when you visit people with newborns? It's very different to experiencing you with a newborn. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? And I think I don't I don't know whether it's because we're just so used to going over over to people's houses when they've got babies. And I don't know, the babies are always sleeping. It's always very >> It looks great. >> Yeah. Yeah. The mom's sitting down, you know, she's making us a cup of tea, >> you know, she's bringing out the biscuits. >> Yeah. >> We don't see it in the same way as we do when we're experiencing it. >> No. And even, you know, being somebody that works on film and being therefore interested in how do you how can you show this M >> you can't >> no >> because it's actually inside your head and it's inside the most intimate part of your family. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of it's in the middle of the night, >> right? You know, and then it's about what the feelings are during the day and getting through the day >> and maybe feeling like you're failing or maybe feeling, you know, having all the feelings. Um, and it's such a personal, private, enormous thing that a norm, it's normally held inside the head of the woman that's going through it, right? And there aren't actually words to describe what the experience is, >> but also because we think that motherhood should be amazing, you know, like the whole thing of sitting on a sofa and going, "It's amazing. Got to promote this." You know, because we just want to, we're just so used to having it's amazing. It's wonderful. it's the most amazing thing that we could ever do for humanity, whatever. >> Then when those feelings of failure pop up, when you know we feel ashamed about it, we feel guilt and that is what holds it in and actually makes it so much >> stronger in our heads. >> Yeah. Oh, well, and I think everybody is you're just terrified that either >> you aren't good enough for your kid or that somebody will think that you're not good enough and will they take the kid away? will, you know, all if if I say anything negative, will it, you know, everything gets internalized. >> Um, and if you're really lucky, then you have a group of friends that you can be incredibly honest with. >> Um, and if you're not, and I think a lot of people aren't, >> it it can were and were and were and were and it it can get very tricky. And I think it it is what you just said. It's like because the image of it is meant to be here I am serene. >> Serene. this is the most fulfilled and I just naturally know what I'm doing and I'm fine with no sleep and I can fit back in my jeans and here's my head, you know? I mean, it it so undervalues the experience. Like the experience is so much more than that. It's so much more than easy. It's so much more than amazing. It's so I mean it can incorporate that, right? You have amazing days where you're like, "God, look at me. I was just amazing." you know, my baby's amazing and it's all amazing and and they're great and they happen and that's great, but it's >> it it's like it's a universe that's happening between a mother and child. It's a it's every emotion. It's all of the emotions. And I think it's also, you know, particularly with that first child, it's you have no concept of the life change that is going to happen. And it's not just like a few changes, it's everything. >> And and I think that there is allowed and should be a period of mourning for your previous life. >> Yeah. >> And your previous self and your previous relationship. And I think that's allowed. >> And the fact that you're allowed to be selfish and think about yourself. >> Yeah. And you are in every situation. >> Exactly. And you are still allowed to want to be you. And you are still allowed to want to go out and you are still allowed to want to be on your own. >> And and I think people feel so guilty about that, >> you know, and they feel so guilty about any negative feelings that they might be having >> um that it can get it worse. >> Yeah. instead of actually going, you know, there is a life-changing thing and it is amazing and if you're really lucky that kid is well and you are well and that's still really hard >> and you are still allowed to have moments where you're grieving your past life. That's okay. You know, sit there and you can grieve it and then you can move forward and then you can figure it out. You know, you're allowed to want to go out with your mates and get pissed. You are allowed to want that. >> Um you're allowed to want to be that version of yourself. But >> it might not be there for a while. >> Yeah. >> You know, did you allow yourself to grieve? >> Yeah. I think when I understood it, I think I did. I was then like, "Oh, we don't need to feel bad about about going, go, we were really we we as a couple were out there and we had fun and we were out all night and you know, we were and we went to parties and we did all the things and, you know, and that doesn't exist and will never exist in that way. And I don't think I realized it would never exist in that way again. It looks different now, right? We've got a 10 and a six-year-old. We definitely aren't hedonistic." >> Mhm. And I'm really glad that we had the moment where we were hedonistic. Like what fun. But we do go out and we do see friends and we do now. We've built a life. But we both had to acknowledge that we did miss that, you know, and there was a bit of us that wanted to still be that and be in contact with that and that there was a sadness that you couldn't, you know, but also you're on a journey which is a new journey which has amazing things and you're which has the most amazing things which has the most important which everything feels >> 10 times bigger than anything felt before, you know, but you're not going to be able to go out and get pissed as much. And also you look back at like your childhood and you know the fact that it was a creative home and so much joy and everything like that, but actually it makes you realize how much goes into creating a family like that. When you've got things like kids who aren't sleeping or, you know, different pressures from different places to be places or for the kids to be at school or whatever it is, you know, there's actually so much else that goes around. >> Yeah. >> That home life. >> Yeah. >> That can really interfere with it. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's the it's the community that you need to build around you that makes it all possible, you know. It's the people whether you can afford I mean, if you can afford the child care, obviously super lucky. We can afford great child care. We we could send the kid to nurseries, >> you know, all of that. Um, but it's the people, it's my mom is hugely involved. >> Um, I mean, with me growing up, my grandmother was involved. We did have child minders and there was a tight group of friends and so it was the moms and dads, other moms and dads on the school gate and we would stay over at their house a lot and we would do that and you know now it's it's building those communities around you that allow >> that allow life. >> Yeah. >> In its full to happen, you know, but I think at the beginning you have no idea how you're going to this is just this is life. >> This is it. This is life. This is this is this is life and I don't sleep. But >> how did you feel going into having a second child? >> I must have been mad. >> Um, >> but there must have also been a feeling of, you know, well, I'm not sleeping now anyway. >> I think it was a bit that. >> Yeah. And I think we'd always gone, we're having two. I mean, it's so weird. I mean, it's so weird. We'd always just gone, we're having two. And we were like, we're having two. >> So, we're having two. So, now we're having two. And again, it was like, let's just not be as careful. Boom. Straight away. Yeah. Again, lucky, you know, obviously very lucky. But literally again first time. Um >> but also the idea of something versus the reality of seeing that pregnant. >> Yes. You have one second of being like oh yeah we should and we always wanted to Oh hi. Hello. Um Yes. And then the second um how did your eldest react to the news initially into your pregnancy? >> She was so excited. >> Really? >> She was like she she was so excited. and she said, "It has to be a girl." And at that point, we hadn't found out. We were like, "He be interesting if it's a boy." Cuz she's very adamant about this. And again, I'd gone, "It is a girl." I mean, I didn't say that to her, obviously, cuz I didn't know, but in my head, I totally went. By that point, I was 34, so officially, what is it? Geriatric mother. Yeah. >> So, we got the test, the early one. Oh, yeah. Um, so I knew very early that she was a girl, >> right? >> Um, yes. So, then it was a girl. And I have to say, Edie, my oldest, was so excited. Um, and she was gorgeous. I mean, all the way through. And then I So, she was four by the time Delilah was born. And for us, it was great age difference. It was, you know, it was um >> she she's an amazing, and I say this honestly, thank God, she is an amazing big sister. She is. And she adors her and always has done from the moment that she came out. And she's just been they're quite heartbreaking together really. They're just I think they're very different. So, they don't occupy the same spaces. And I think that's but I I put that as a great credit to my my oldest kid cuz she she's she's pretty glorious with her. >> Really? >> Yeah. And um and that's not to say that that's always easy. And that's not to say that she doesn't have moments where and particularly at the beginning where you where she her kingdom was taken away. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> You've changed her life for forever. >> You've changed her life forever. And as much as she wanted that baby, you know, she did. She really I mean she'd been asking me for, you know, always loved babies, always, you know, always wanted another baby. But that moment where that oldest kid and look, again, super lucky cuz that's the way it was. Obviously, you get some old oldest kids who are like, I hate it. What is this? I don't, you know, but even on the side of it where you have a kid who's just glorious with their younger sibling, they still have moments where their kingdom has gone. >> Yeah. >> And they're being asked to share their people. >> Mhm. And that baby takes up a lot of space >> and it cries. >> Mhm. And you know, and you watch these oldest ones and I think for me I was like the I I view her as she was so courageous in dealing with those emotions and in dealing with that space and in loving this small child, but also, you know, looking at this altered world and trying to figure out her way through this altered world. Um, is it something that you were aware of? No, I'm a younger sibling. >> I was just like hard to be aware of these things. >> Yeah, I'm not aware at all of this. >> No, no, I wasn't. But, but there was a story in my house that um my mom with me, she had a home birth. She'd had a horrible time in hospital the first time. So, with my brother. So, she decided to have a home birth. And that was the first night he slept through was when I was born at home on the kitchen floor. Um and uh she'd been playing tenn table tennis with him. They' got a table tennis thing. So, she'd been playing table tennis until she put into bed and he miraculously slept through and she was in labor on the kitchen floor all night and gave birth to me on the kitchen floor. Um, and he came down in the morning and uh he had half an hour where he quite liked me and then he said, "When's she going back?" >> Um, and it's understandable, right? >> It's so You're like, "Yeah, when I mean this has been great." >> Yeah. Because now we've got this nice bit where we want it. Yeah. And we're all on the sofa and we've got a nice cup of tea and everything looks nice and then it starts crying and then my mom starts crying and then everybody >> I want you to play with me now. Play with me. >> Yeah. Exactly. And now play with me again. And what do you mean I've got it? You know, it's it's like >> but all of this it feels like you've really dived into your daughter's head uh because you've used it as inspiration to to write and draw illustrate your picture book. I love you just the same. It's beautiful, Kira. Oh, thank you very much. So beautiful. The pictures, the illustrations are gorgeous. >> But also diving into that child's brain >> when their kingdom has been taken. Yeah. >> When life isn't the same. And you know, it's it's really Yeah. Well, I feel like you so so the inspiration so the book came around in a very strange way and it massively came around because of the sleeplessness because in all of the in all of the trying to find ways where she might sleep through the night um and uh I don't know why but we came up with um she would go to sleep and then uh I would draw her a picture and and so when she woke up she I'd make sure that the picture was beside her bed so she'd see that I'd been thinking about her and she knew that I was there and she didn't feel she felt connected but she didn't have to wake me up and it didn't work and it was like 5 months of doing this and you know cuz she kept saying but what have you forgotten about me and I was like but I had promised I promise >> chance would be a fine thing I haven't forgotten so we went through this thing and she and she started >> real separation anxiety >> real separation anxiety real separation anxiety during the night and again super happy being put to bed no problems at all but during the night coming and waking up and actually wanting to be in her own bed cuz again I literally at this time I didn't have any rules you know I would have done anything but wanted to be in her own room wanted to be but from midnight every hour on the hour mom you know coming down go back up and you know she'd mostly go to sleep very quickly afterwards but I was then awake you know I'm then awake anyway so we're doing this drawing and she's like she's like okay you know sometimes it would be a love heart and some nights like can there be a bird in it? Yeah, sure. There's a bird in it. Can there be a cat in it? Yeah, sure. Can I be in it? Yeah, sure. I'll draw you. Can I be on a swing? Yeah, sure. And there's, you know, and it goes on for 5 months, and there's no story, there's nothing. But one day, she said, and she'd wanted her sister in it, too. And there was this bird, and and her sister had been teething and, you know, crying all day. And she said, can you draw a picture of the bird taking the baby away? I'm like, sure, that's amazing. >> What a great idea. >> What a great idea. Yes, darling. I can do that. Anyway, so at the end of it, I had all of these images, but didn't really think much of it and thought, "Oh, I'll put them into a book for her." >> And she said, "I don't want them in a book cuz they're all just black and white." And you know, she was sleeping. After 5 months, that's when she started sleeping through. I am not going to try and say to anyone it was because of the drawings. >> Yeah. >> I have no idea why at that point, but that's what we've been doing. That was our last attempt at this bedtime routine to try and make a sleep through. Anyway, I had all these drawings. Um, they didn't have a story. Uh, I tried to then color them in for her because she didn't she didn't like them. Just black and white. >> Quite the critic. very definitely. Yeah, big critic. Uh, and then I thought, well, maybe I can try and see if there's a story somewhere and maybe I can put them in some order. And I put them up on the wall in my office and they sat there for about a year and a bit and I sort of played with the order of them and played them around. And then it was just this little bit of the bird taking the baby away. And then I think at some point I'd gone, I must show that the baby's okay. So I'd put her in a in a nest. Yeah. >> And at some other point Edy had gone, that looks fun. Can I go in the nest? you know, so I put them both in this nest and there was an image of that >> and that's sort of how it came about. And then as I was looking at it, I was like, "Oh, well, the story is the girl wishes the baby away and and then has to go on an adventure." And I think partly because I view her, my oldest child, as heroic. I think watching watching her struggle with things and watching how she comes through things, you know, I I view her as I view it as heroic. I view those older children and also the mess. You know, you don't know what you're doing with your oldest kid. You make all the mistakes >> and what they have to put up with with their parents learning how to be parents. The youngest ones just sail through. You're like, "Oh, yeah. I've got it." However different they are. You know, you've just been through it. So, you know, and those older ones are really putting up with a lot. >> There's a lot of pressure. My dad said to me once um when it came to Buzz, you've got to remember that he is still a child. >> Yeah. because all of a sudden they have so much responsibility put on them and you know the whole of you've got to share you've got to almost sort of make >> can you help me with this and can you bring me that and yes actually I need you know and you're treating them 100% also they're so much bigger than the baby >> so you know and I now I even think you know she was four when Delila was born I didn't ask Delilah to go and you know look look after your sister for a second or look I mean know you wouldn't dream of doing that to a four-year-old and yet those older ones >> I think it's only when you real when you see the younger ones at the age that the older ones were when they arrived that you kind of go oh >> oh I should be so she did so she was four five during the lockdown and um and the b you know Delila was like six months or something and there was an amazing moment and so the book that I originally did for her is not the book that this is right I I kept there was a private it was to you know this her thing so um so but there was an amazing time she turned around to me and she went mother I am not child care I'm five And it was I just got I was look after the baby. You know, it was the most amazing. Oh yeah. And she clearly heard me on my foot the phone. You know, people are asking me to do work and I'm like, I've got no child care. I've got no child care. You know, so she's clearly picked this up. I am not mother. I am not child care. I'm five. Good point. I'll make other arrangements as well. >> Sorry. Sorry. Sorry about that. No, I'm not doing that job. Sorry. Thank you very much. >> Yeah. >> It's hard as well, isn't it? with the sleep deprivation or the sleep anxiety or the separation anxiety that your your daughter experienced. We all know how difficult it is when thoughts come in the night, >> you know. So, you can be a happy person in the daytime and you know, go to bed well, but actually when you wake up in the night, it doesn't matter what the problems are. No, >> your problems at night when you're awake just seem far bigger. >> And they and they and and the panic as well, you know, the panic of it being dark. Yeah. >> But actually, she she really wanted this is what I mean about the courage of her. She really wanted to do it. She wanted to be in that room. She wanted to, you know, like she really she was like >> she was really trying. And I think that was what was sort of again like the heartbreak of those those those >> those first kids who are, you know, >> Yeah. >> doing their best. >> Absolutely. >> Everyone's doing their best. >> Everyone is. And it's a it's a group effort when it comes to >> Yeah. >> everyone sleeping or everyone >> Yeah. I mean, it's the main thing that parents talk about really, isn't it? How's the sleep? >> Yeah. >> Did you get any sleep? But not now in you know and I say even when no I mean even where we are you >> yeah or when you know your eldest was five they wouldn't have been asking you how she >> No do you know what when they were three they they weren't asking me and I needed to talk about it cuz she wasn't you know but again the second one like after four months it wasn't even a discussion. >> Yeah. >> So >> and that's probably the part when parents actually really do need to talk about the fact that their kids aren't sleeping. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think you just need to keep talking all the way through. >> Yeah. I think that's why you need your group of people around you who are going through the same thing at the same point >> um to I mean even though some of them are really annoying and it's all easy and it's all fine you know you need to find the ones who are horrifically honest and you can all just be like this is what's happening cuz it makes it better right it makes it better to know that you're not alone in your experience >> absolutely >> and that there's a wealth of experience and you can sit there and be like I'm so lucky like they are great we are great it's all great but it's still even though that's the case this is still. So my god for the people where they've got kids who've got problems or kind of got health issues or whatever you know it's a whole other story. So I'm very aware that I'm talking about this from the point of view of somebody where it's all gone completely fine. Look, my best mate, the the first ever episode of this podcast, um, Emma Willis, I asked her to come on and, um, and she said to me when I asked her, uh, cuz I was I've always been quite open about how I'm found finding family life. And I think because I write, I always had that bit of an outlet. And Emma was like, you know, how can I come on and talk about struggling when I have a nice house, I have an amazing supportive family, I've got a great husband who, you know, we're very much in it together. Yes, I struggle, but I'm so >> how can I possibly talk when people are actually having problems because that shuts everybody out. >> We all struggle. >> Yeah. And I think that's what's important to know. You're like, okay, if I'm struggling and I've got the husband and I've got the house and I could afford the child care >> or struggling is maybe the wrong word. Maybe it's just again this is going back to your look at the nice baby and aren't we all, you know, the experience >> Yeah. >> is so much bigger. You know, it's bigger than struggling, right? It's bigger than it's just so your responsibility is so massive >> that of course you're going to find times where you're totally overwhelmed by it because ultimately it's the most ex important thing in your world right or I mean it should be it mostly is for most people like that's what that's what it is so of course you need to grapple with that and I think if we all shut up and go I mustn't speak at all because I do understand how lucky I am but if I if I therefore or shut up then what good does that do for every because you can always find somebody that's in a worse position. So therefore we're not allowed to talk about our experience at all. >> Yeah. >> And I think actually that's where motherhood it seemed when I gave birth to my first child that's sort of where it seemed to be like we were allowed to say nothing but >> this is lovely. >> This is lovely and look I'm this content beautiful baby. >> Beautiful baby. Beautiful mother. Beautiful baby. >> Jeans fit. Jeans don't fit. Jeans never fit again. It's just what it is. >> That's the reality. >> Yeah. You know, it's that um taking on the biggest responsibility responsibility you're ever going to have whilst you're at the your most depleted. >> Yeah. >> You know, you're not at your strongest when >> And it was Do you remember? I still remember the first weekend where it's like I don't get a weekend. >> Yeah. >> This never stops. >> This never stops. Or the first holiday like But we're on holiday. >> I've just taken us to a hot place with none of our things and nobody to help. What were we thinking? >> I've I've just literally started going on holidays where I can sit by the pool with a cocktail and read a book. >> No. Yeah. >> It's so different. >> Well, they suddenly play or they're playing together or they're playing with and you're like, "Oh, oh." But that I mean, and I remember we went we went with some really close friends when Edie was three and they both just had their baby and we all went to Spain and it was their first two couples, their first holiday without a baby. And so we experienced again their we don't get a holiday firstand. And you do look at them or you hear people going, "I've just had a baby. We're going to go to blah blah blah and it's going to be 40° and that's going to be great." Like have fun. That's going to be fun. >> It does change everything. Absolutely everything. >> Yeah. >> Um your mom's attitude of well, you just make it work. How has the juggling been with the just make it work attitude? >> Well, um you know, I think there is a There is a reality to it. You do just make it work. It does look different for absolutely everybody. >> Um and it's always a mess. >> And I think this is what I've come to just accept is that it's always messy and we sort of and again I'm really lucky we've got so my mom and my husband and we tend to work. So, I'm about to go into this big period of working. So, they're on it and uh and we've got jobs where we can kind of do it like that and he works from home. So, that's kind of, you know, it it sort of works well from that point of view. But, um but it's always a mess. >> Has it got slightly easier now the girls are older? >> Definitely. And definitely just from, you know, from being able to if there's a problem, they can call me. They don't have phones, but, you know, they can they they can >> there's a receptionist at school. >> There's a reception at a school. they're, you know, people can get in touch and they they can explain what what's going on and, you know, um I'm really lucky the next job I'm doing is in London, so I'm not disrupting their life. Their life is set. They're at school. They've got their friends. They've got the stuff. We've got our support network around us cuz we're at home. >> Is that what you try and do as much as possible? They stay exactly where they are. >> Well, for all of us, I've tried to get as much work as I can in London. So that for this bit, I mean, at least it was mostly cuz postcoid, you know, it was like, my god, these children just need some to be in a life that is regular. I felt for me, you know, and I think for actors that's very difficult because we move all over the world. So, I've really tried to kind of keep it in London and been really fortunate that I could kind of I could make that work. >> Yeah. Do you ever feel like you're getting it right? >> No. Do you know I did an I did an interview just before the summer holidays and the very nice um very nice journalist, but she asked me to mark myself out of 10 and I was on motherhood >> on motherhood on everything. I had lots of questions to mark myself out of 10 and I was clearly having one of those days. I was feeling pretty groovy, you know. That's always a dangerous place. >> It's so dangerous. So, it's been haunting me because I gave myself a seven out of 10. I mean, I gave myself high marks for everything, but I was like I gave myself a seven out of 10 for motherhood. Let me tell you this morning with book bags and screaming and now we're post summer holidays and everything was I was like three, three out of 10, two and a half maybe if I asked my daughter one. I don't know. Um, yeah. God, you know, >> it's the whole attract thing. Look, we all go through moments, I think, in motherhood where things happen. We don't react in the in the right way. We don't in a way that we're proud of and you kind of wish that you could take things back. You can't. You keep moving forward. It's >> I also think you can always say sorry. >> Yes. >> And like it's so important as a parent to acknowledge when you're like just wrong. >> And actually, it's been a really lovely bit with both my girls of like we of of being able to go, >> I'm really sorry about that. I was totally wrong. I got that totally wrong. I love you. I am so sorry. >> I don't feel like my parents, you know, we just not that we did what we were told, but there there wasn't any >> and this isn't a a dig at my mom and dad at all. I think they were both working. They were both very busy. They were both, you know, had different pressures. >> There was no reasoning, you know, we had to do things because >> because I said so, you know, there was whereas now when >> when my kids go, but I was only >> Yeah. I was only doing and you're kind of like ah >> because actually you have your own life that you want to live and you have >> and you're trying to move forward and you're trying to do things and actually quite often the behavior when it is bad or when you've all blown up it all actually makes sense why you've all responded or you know in the way that you have and actually a little bit of moment when you're all a bit calmer to kind of unpick it and go sorry what were you doing there and what was I doing there and >> if you have got it wrong I think because you've got to teach them to say sorry as well it's Got to be okay to make mistakes and then say sorry, hasn't it? >> Absolutely. >> So I I think that's been a big learning curve for me. >> My middle child when we used to say say sorry, which I actually completely disagree with now, but whenever we used to say sorry, he used to go Lori >> Bory. We no sorry. >> Yeah, >> Cory. >> It's amazing how difficult it is to say though. My little one, she I mean again we don't go you have to say sorry, but she sometimes I'm like you know I mean the other day she accidentally hurt. She like jumped on her or something and it was a complete accident. I saw it was a complete accident. I was like, you know, if you said sorry, then she'd know it was an accident. I cannot do it. It's like, but you kind of are sorry because you actually didn't mean to do it. Like, can't say. >> You do you. >> Cool. >> I think that's great though, right? Like we all do things where we're just like, >> yeah, not ready. I don't want to. >> I'm not and I'm not ready to say sorry. I'm not ready to say sorry. >> I know if I have an argument with Tom, I'm not ready to say sorry straight away. >> When you do say sorry, >> it does feel quite good, doesn't it? >> It does. I was like, "This is what I've noticed with my kids." I'm like, "Actually, it's much better if I get it wrong." >> And it takes I'm a terribly proud creature that doesn't like to get things wrong. Yeah. >> But it's been an awful, you know, to actually go, you know what? We're muddling through. We're all doing our best. We all love each other. >> I got that wrong. It It takes the kind of air out of it all. And then I've noticed with them, then they're less cross with me, which is always nice, which is really helpful for family life. Yeah. Kira, if you could write a letter on motherhood. This is such a nice question because who would it be to? What would you say? >> I don't know because wouldn't everyone say shut up? >> What do you mean? >> Well, who would you say it to? Because I can I I suddenly thought about anyone writing me a letter like if my mom had written me a letter about motherhood, I would have just been like shut up. I'm doing it my own way. >> Wouldn't you? >> It's very true. It's very true. >> Who would you write your letter to? >> Well, so this question exists because I wrote a whole book. It was a collection of letters. I wrote to the boys. I wrote to my boobs. I wrote to my mobile. I wrote to my mom, my dad, Tom. Um, my past self. >> I think past self is an interesting one. >> Yeah. >> What' you say? >> Good luck. >> That body is not coming back. Enjoy it while it lasts. >> Did you feel a pressure with that? Because your body is talked, you know, >> talked about. >> Yeah. >> Um, yes and no. I I was I was very surprised that it didn't I've always had a body where it it I did I had to do very little and it was just one of those thin bodies, you know, it came back and it didn't and it it hasn't, you know. Um and so yeah, I was surprised, but I was also like >> I was also like more important things. I'll just buy a bigger size of jeans. I mean I I kept my clothes from pre thinking that I would be able to fit. >> How long did you keep them for? >> Until after the second child. >> Oh, really? Yeah. So, until Delila was about one and then I was like, "Oh, I mean my shoulders are broader." >> But this I always wonder what is having a baby and what is getting older? >> Well, this is a very good question. I mean, this is a very good question. >> No, I think a lot of it is. I think my I can say my rib cage and my shoulders. >> Yes. Yes. >> Right. I mean, like I am just rib cage. >> Same. I but I put on like I've never been able to wear across my shoulders is bigger. >> Really? No. Is that just because I'm stronger because I'm lifting things? Maybe >> you're hench. >> I'm hench. >> Mhm. >> Buff. >> Um that's it actually. That's it. >> Just claim it. >> Do you know what? I will. It's just made me feel great. >> Amazing. >> I love it when something needs to be done at home and you know maybe Tom's busy or whatever and I'm just like I'm going to just do it. And the boys reaction when they're like wow. Yeah, >> mom's just lifting stuff. >> Yeah, but I might I mean, you must be it. I'm strong. Yeah, I've I've carried those children. Those children were well and truly lifted in every single which way. I'm actually quite worried cuz my six-year-old is now she's just getting that bit where she's a bit heavy. Think about working out again cuz that's going to that's going to go in a minute. Yeah, it's all right. You're still buff. You're fine. >> Thanks. Cheers. >> Okay, so Lettera is just saying good luck. >> Good luck. Good luck. And say goodbye. >> See you on the other side. >> Yeah. Yeah. See you on the other side. It's going to be fine. Yeah. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. >> Okay. >> The first one is being a mom means >> everything. >> Since having children, I >> go. Since having children, I really value sleep and I'm happy when my kids are happy. >> Kira, thank you so much. It's been an absolute delight. I've I've absolutely You've delivered. >> Thank you very much. I'm glad I've delivered. I really hope I haven't said anything that's going to get me into trouble, and I probably have, but I'm glad I've delivered. >> That's tomorrow's problem. Don't worry about fine. >> Brilliant. Thank you so much. >> Thank you.