Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host. And joining me today are Michael Diorio and Reno Gaston. Welcome, boys. So, today we're talking about growing up different and the impact this has on our sense of belonging as gay men. We're going to be exploring questions like how did growing up gay affect your sense of belonging? And what does belonging mean to you? And how do you find belonging in your life now? Okay. So, why I chose this topic. >> >> Well, I'm a therapist in the gay community and I work with a ton of loneliness and I work with a ton of shame and inadequacy and all the things. And I see a lot of gay men in our community with a lot of protector parts to this, to belonging and the the what comes up when we don't have belonging. Exclusion, um feeling abandoned, feeling rejected, these sorts of things and I think our culture has often confused validation, attention for love and belonging. And I really want this episode to really kind of distinguish what these two how these things are different. Uh and how we can start to move towards a deeper sense of belonging because I think there's a lot of people that even I see that are like, "Oh yeah, I've got tons of friends and I go out and I have so much fun and all these things, but yet they're still lonely." Right? There's this deep deep deep loneliness and I think this deep loneliness comes from not being known, not being able to fully be your authentic self and experience connection in that. And that's what belonging is. All right, you look at what fitting in is, it's we have to change who we are. And I think a lot of a lot of gay men, I think we do use fitting in as a protector part. We try to fit in so we can feel a sense of of inclusion, but we're also abandoning ourselves in doing that. So, I think there's an op- opportunity here to have a conversation about just what belonging is, right? It's just it's all about getting to be you. Getting to be you in all your quirks, all your insecurities, all your um brilliance, and you get to be accepted and loved and included for being yourself. And that's what I think we have struggled with as a community. We have a lot of belonging injuries, and I think we lead with some of these. So, I want to I want to really let the audience kind of get a sense today of what belonging is and what it feels like, the frequency of belonging. And so they can start to notice and find this in their in their world, in their lives. It's very healing. Belonging is a very, very healing thing, and I think it's something that we need as as gay men, both within our culture, like our community, but I think in the greater larger scheme of the world, we need to learn how to belong as well, too. So, so that's the the topic today. Um if you're new here, please subscribe uh to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe, leave us a review. This helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. And this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported, so you can donate to the show. There's a link in the show notes. You can also tap the thanks button on YouTube if you wish to support us. Then we also do have our early access option on Apple, which you get early access uh to our episodes. And it does help support our community, so we thank you in advance for that. Yeah, like I said, um belonging is it's one of our deepest emotional needs, and for for a lot of us as gay men, it's something that's been complicated by experience of bullying and rejection and hiding and uh feeling different. And so I want to I want to normalize this stuff and I want to also normalize the protector parts that we've had to develop as gay men to to to survive this. A lot of us our our nervous systems have been in survival mode since we've been little boys and uh that takes a lot of courage, a lot of strength to to to be in that but in order for us to heal we need to be aware of the parts of us that we're using to mitigate the pain of not belonging and not fitting in. Um so uh just a few that I identified like lone wolf. We've done lots of episodes on this. This is one of the biggest protector parts to you know, the fear of not belonging. We just will isolate ourselves. We'll become overly independent and not worry about having and it can get lonely, right? It can get really lonely. Uh we might minimize connection in this place. Uh we might stay in the closet, right? Being terrified of being rejected so we stay in the closet and then we lose out on belonging and and belonging to a community that can help us feel like you know, a normal human being. Um suppressing our emotions, uh validation seeing seeking and then I think one of the bigger ones that I identified is trying to fit in. When we try and fit in we lose ourself. We we abandon ourselves. We betray ourselves in the in this act of trying to fit in. So um and then healing healing this it gives us greater capacity to allow ourselves to belong because I think allowing ourselves to belong starts with us. And we have to learn how to not reject ourselves cuz when we're rejecting ourselves it's almost impossible to allow ourselves to belong. So I think this conversation can lend itself into self-belonging and belonging to community and groups and stuff as well. So Yeah, that's my little monologue to start us off. Hopefully it got some juices flowing for you guys. And uh so the first question is how did growing up gay affect your sense of belonging? And today I'd like to start with Reno. >> So there's layers um to this. There's the belonging in the context of um girls, you know, boys, um family and friends. And how I experience belonging within each of those categories differs. Um In the context of my family, I would say like you know, my siblings and I, like we were pretty solid overall. Um I would say it was obvious to them that I was different. Um you know, and there were probably questions as well. Um and curiosities. I think, you know, as as we probably discussed this on this podcast before. My my mom was on one of our episodes and you know, she explained that like she knew right away. Um and I think a lot of the adults did. Like they knew I was different. At least at least I was different. Um and and part of that was that I was gay. And I don't think that that was a secret. Um So, in the context of my family, I think my my sense of belonging wasn't questioned so much. Um when it came to the men, and specifically my dad, certainly there was a sense of um disconnection between the two of us. Um I didn't always feel seen, uh heard, witnessed, understood by him. Um and and I would say there were many cases where I felt rejected, especially when I brought my sort of um gay parts to the table, if you will. Uh And it's interesting because it wasn't The funny thing about being gay is um Like I don't I didn't know that I was doing it, you know? It's just the thing um that happens. It's It's and it's It's who I am. But what I did pay attention to was when how I was being um created a negative response, right? And and so I would pay attention to that and then be like, "Okay, this part of me isn't safe here. This part of me isn't okay here. This part of me isn't welcomed here." And anytime that was happening um I'd just like put it away. You know, in in this particular context I can be you know, I can be this much me. In this particular context I can be this much me, right? So um Now, granted I will I will give my dad this, you know, I will give my dad this. Like he definitely you know tried his best. And and um you know, there were some ways I think I made it challenging for us to be in connection as well. Um and I can also understand his history and why it would have been difficult to relate to me in in you know, in the ways that I think in his heart he probably wanted to, but didn't know how or wasn't equipped to. Um you know alternatively, I had this relationship with uh you know, I'll point to my grandmother, for example, and I left my grandfather out, but like he was another sort of stoic character who um I believe some of these characteristics that come with being baby's attributes, um he also like rejected and didn't really know what to do it. Um my grandmother, her our relationship and her space was like a sanctuary for me. It was definitely a place where I belonged. And when I say belonged, I very much so mean that um like a lot of me was allowed at the table. I would say all of me to be honest, you know, like I there I think there were few things that weren't welcomed in that space in terms of my expression, in terms of my being. Um and I think that was really important because had I not had that relationship, um I don't I can't say what I would have been like. I'm not sure life would have been more difficult, for sure. Um I I think it would have stunted certain development, personal development, for sure. Um it's interesting to say all this out loud, too, because I don't know that I've given it this thought. Like I I haven't heard myself say this specifically before, so um you're sort of witnessing this unpacking in real time, in a way. It's interesting. Um and then in the context of friends, uh uh, you know, and the greater community. I would say, uh, again, there was this vigilance, like I paid attention to where I felt I was welcomed and what parts of me I felt were welcomed. And anytime I got the sense that it wasn't safe for me to, you know, it it wasn't safe for certain aspect of my expression to come through. Um, that I would sort of sort of reel it back in, if you will, or try to mask it or hide it. Masking is a great word, actually. There was a bit of a bit of that. And and I think the last thing I'll say, too, is like there wasn't there wasn't quite a bit of that. There was a bit of that because it was really hard for me to mask. You know, it was really hard for me to mask. Um, and so, um, I it made me a target, I think, at times, particularly with boys. Um, the girls, and, you know, girls and women, uh, in later years, um, they really tended to love me. Um, and appreciate me and celebrate me, you know, it was like easier for them, which was great. So, I had a very close relationship to to the girls in my life and the the women in my life. And the thing I'll say about boys and men is that when I got them alone, like when we were alone, it's so interesting to see how different they were. You know? Like suddenly ours was a place of belonging when we were like alone. Um, you know, and they let their guard down and took their mask off. You know, it's like, oh, okay. You are There's more going on here. Yeah, that's what it's like. Mhm. >> I felt you the most in what you were sharing and it actually I never even associated this word with belonging, but you said all with your grandma, you said all parts of me felt welcome. >> Yeah. >> Right? And that's such a perfect word in a way to describe belonging. It's this feeling of being welcomed, right? You're invited to be yourself, right? Um and I don't think a lot of us as gay men have had that experience in many places, right? But then there's also you said with your grandfather and your dad um and just men in general, there was parts of you that you felt weren't welcomed and I'm curious like what What were those parts for you that you that you perceived? >> Oh gosh, well, you know, it's funny. Like um I I know I won't get too deep into it uh because I think it confuses people and I also think it perturbs certain people, but >> >> you know, this distinction between being gay and being homosexual, I don't know. It's just It helps me contextualize some things, you know? Because there's certain attributes I think that come with being gay, so to speak, you know? It's like my my softness, my um femininity, my curiosity, like my um you know, the the the sort of flowiness about me, my creativity, um the you know, the way I move, the way I spoke, the way I expressed, um the fact that I was embodied, for example, sensual, you know, um sexual in my nature, um vivacious, like there are all these like words that um to me reflect like a brightness. Like uh you know um I almost want to get kind of woo here, but it's like um you know, it's like if I were a prism and light were shining through me like in these instances it's shown so brightly. Um you know, and anytime that were the case in the face of some of these individuals um there was a rejection of it. And I was like, "Oh, okay, I've got to I've got to dim that. I've got to like water that down a bit, you know? Bring some bass to my voice or be a little more reserved in my expression, in my lightness, my lightheartedness, my softness, my tenderness, my openness, my expressiveness, etc. Yeah. You know, um that's that's what that that's what that looked like. And um it's so interesting to me cuz like uh I'm not even mad about it anymore. I'm just like even like I I shared that last night. My friends and I went out for my friend's birthday and we're all in drag, you know? And like what a beautiful sense of belonging with one another. And then to be out in the world in costume and fun and color and expression. And to have all these different reactions, be met with all these different reactions. And to just be so intrigued but I mean I just remember thinking like there are probably so many people especially the ones who kind of cringe um who long to be so expressed, to be so free, you know? They don't even know what that's like, you know? They can't they can't fathom it. Um so they reject it. And that's sad. That's sad. Not for me, for them, you know? And I'm like, "Damn. Um you should come play." It's fun over here. You know. >> Yeah. But it sounds like you understand both sides of the fence cuz you you're originally were talking about, you know, fitting in. That's kind of >> Yeah, totally. >> Like a protector part that you used growing up. You felt like you had to change who you were to >> Yeah. >> fit in. >> Well, and the girls, I mean, gosh, sometimes it's like you see the that they get to wear or like just I don't know. They're just like living. You know, they're like cute and fun and free and you know, it's like that. I'm not saying you got to wear makeup, but like it's just like there's so much more to like uh if if you were handed a set of, I don't know, colors, if you will. It's like there's one group that gets to use like gray and I don't know, white and I I don't even know what I'd like, maybe brown or something like that, right? Or beige. And and then and then there's one group that's got this whole just to, you know I have this vision of like a kit of colors on colors on colors, you know. And that's what they get to draw from. You know, that's what they get to draw from and play with play with and work with. You know, and it's like to me that's just so so fun. And and that's, you know, that's that's why like women, it seems, really really tend to get to play in that space. I used to look at them and be like oh, you know, the clothes you get to wear, the way you get to be in the world, like how how nice and how exciting. And granted, they also had to fight for that, too. Whole other conversation, you know. But yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think men can do that, too. I don't know if it's necessary. >> Yeah. No, they can. >> There's so many colorful things and you guys like to wear colorful shirts and stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> Like ways that you can explore it as a man as well. >> Mhm. Totally. >> Yeah. >> What's this bringing up for you, Michael? I'm curious. >> Um yeah, I think even before even before gay even before I knew I was or knew what that was, I already had I don't know, a wound, an issue, a challenge with belonging even before that. Like as long as I could remember. Um so it wasn't quite the gay thing. That just kind of amplified it. It's like, "Oh shit." Um whether that was because of it, I'm not sure. Um that's maybe a a topic for another day, but yeah, before I even knew I was gay, I had always felt like an outsider um as long as I could remember. So, I I yeah, often will tell you the story of the other boys. They just seem to like click and gel really easily, and I just didn't. Like I I just didn't. I just couldn't. I didn't I didn't have it in me. It's like I wasn't born with it. I wasn't born with the parts to like make friends with boys. Um I was shy. I was very sensitive. I had social anxiety in groups of kids, not with adults, with kids. Um and I thought that I was the problem because the way that the adults in the room talked about me made it sound like I was a problem. Why is Michael like this? He needs to do that more. Why is he so Why is he like this and his brother is like that? Why is he so shy and his sister is so talkative? And it's so the way that I and of course as a quiet shy kid, I just observed and picked up all of this whether they knew it or not. So, I'm like, "Oh, something's wrong with me. Okay. Like it's I'm the problem." And I wasn't interested and not even good at faking it. So, this whole performative thing as a kid, I didn't know how to do, and I just wasn't interested. Instead, the way I dealt with it was to withdraw within myself and develop my own rich inner world. So, pictures you'll see of me as a kid and all the stories my parents and aunts and uncles will tell you was that Michael would be with his head in a book or uh playing whatever game um whatever we had in those days or most most often my music. Headphones on, Walkman, me in my own world, having a great time. I wasn't sad about it. Just having my own time. So, I don't even think it was really a problem until like I had I was forced into these like social situations that kids have to go to and I would just resent it and it and detest it and hate it because I just didn't felt didn't feel like I belonged or that I just wasn't good at it. Like as a kid I didn't know I didn't belong. I didn't really know that word. I just like, oh, I don't like these situations with other people. I like the ones where I'm by myself or with like one other friend, max. Or with my music or with my Lego set or with my book, what what have you, okay? Um so, that develops my own inner world. Intro to lone wolf Michael, intro to hyper independent Michael, intro to resilient, strong, I meet my own needs Michael, right? That was the birthplace of that. So, that's how it affected me as a kid and then you add the gay thing somewhere along the way. I realized I was gay and I was like, okay, well, this isn't this doesn't help things, that's for sure cuz the the era and the area that I grew up in there were no other gay folks. So, I was like, okay, just another reason for me to keep my own secret, stay in the closet and withdraw within. Now, I also want to say that yes, growing up different, gay, different, whatever you want to use here, left it scars and I had to adapt and the way I adapted by was by withdrawing into myself. But at some point, those very same adaptations, coping mechanisms, let's call them my protector parts, um were preventing me from belonging for real for real, like as an adult. And so, that is a really important distinction to make in the kind of growing up part and then once you reach the age of reason and responsibility, that's when you have to start taking responsibility for your own belonging at some point, and I'm sure we'll dive into that more as we go along. Um because you know, for anyone out there who still does feel different, regardless of how old you are, because I still do feel different in many ways. The story that I had was I'm different equals I don't belong, but you can be different and belong. You can be different and you don't need to give away your differences, but it's an and, not an or, not a because of. And that for me was was such a moment of like, "Oh, I don't need to fit in or like melt into this sea of people here. I could still be me and find that belonging with, of course, the right with the right people." So, as a kid, I excluded myself. I I I wish I can go back in time and like kind of give that little kid a pep talk and say, "Hey, buddy, like you know, I know you walk into a room and think that no one likes you and everyone's excluding you, but actually a lot of these people might just quite love you if you give yourself a chance, and I was in fact excluding myself." Of course, I know this all in retrospect. I didn't know that at the time. >> Yeah. >> I love what you just said there, too, because I think it's something that you're right, you don't always realize in the moment, but looking back, you can go, "Oh, like there's the way in which I was contributing to my own sense of and experience of unbelonging, you know? And we we don't realize that sometimes. Like I've seen moments in my life where I look back with the clarity I have now and I'm like, "Oh, I was complicit in my own alienation." Like, "Wow." >> I still do that now, though. I I will still catch myself. I'll walk into a room and look around, not know anyone, and just look and say, "Oh, these people aren't for me. They're not going to like me, or I don't like that." And if I do that, I automatically exclude myself. I'm obviously not going to find belonging when I've decided I'm not going to find it ahead of time. So, my challenge even now, even to this day, has been walk into a room, but don't be so quick to judge. Give it a chance. Like let let let the universe surprise me is what I will is my new mantra. And listen, I'll give it an hour, I'll give it two, and if the universe doesn't surprise me, I'm done. Peace. I gave it a chance. Bye. >> Yeah. >> It's interesting you said like when you're when your parent the adults or the parents were kind of like saying things then you made you said you felt like there was something wrong with you. That's like the exact mantra of shame, right? And we start to think there's something wrong with us and if you look at the definition of shame, it's like thinking that there's something wrong with us, we're defective, and that we're somehow unworthy of love and belonging. That's really what it comes down to and I think So, yeah, it's really fascinating how um if we can learn how to actually be with that feeling, right? Cuz even if let's say you're a little boy and you are introverted, and like you don't want to hang out with the other boys. Like does that mean you have to be pathologized as if there's something wrong with you, right? It's like no, like this kid just wants to hang out and imagine if you had a parent that came over and was like, I love that you're hanging out by yourself. You're so independent. Have fun. And they encouraged you to be that, right? And then suddenly the experience of shame turns into an experience of empowerment. Um so, it's yeah. >> Or or if they had asked the right It's not all the right maybe different questions, right? So, instead of Michael has to do it this way cuz his brother and sister did it that way, but maybe it's like, "Hmm, Michael doesn't like playing soccer with these kids. Maybe he would like better to I don't know, join a book club, do something else, go to science camp, whatever." But it was always like, "Oh, no, he has to follow this this recipe for belonging and friendship." But like that just didn't work for me. It worked for everybody else in my family, but not for me. So, like but the again, the way they talked about it is like, "Oh, something must be wrong with him because he's he's not making friends." Versus, "Hmm, how could we enable this or facilitate this more for him so that he could, right?" >> Yeah. Yeah, and that's exactly what creates shame. It's like comparison. There has to be if if shame says there's something wrong with me, there has to be something right outside of me. So, you're comparing in order to feel wrong or inadequate. So, yeah, it's amazing. >> What about you, Matt? >> Um what about me? So, yeah, you guys are making me think about all sorts of things. Um I like you, Michael. I was very similar. Um like and I still have this. I It's like my soul came into this life to have an experience of being an outsider in almost every single thing I do. Like truly, like my politics is not mainstream, my um sexual orientation is not mainstream, my the way I view the world is not mainstream. Like I have always been on the fringe, right? And it's just how how I've been. And I don't choose to be like that. Like this is just who I authentically am. I I tend to see the world very differently than most people or the the majority of people, I'll say. And uh so, I've had a lot of experiences of um rejecting, feeling rejected, rejecting myself because I like there must be something wrong with me because I'm not like everybody else. Um growing up as a little boy and being like super duper sensitive, this little empath. I remember like grade one, I would like go into the classroom, freak out, panic cuz all this energy and I would run back out and I would go back to my mom's car. We did this every morning for like so many like weeks. It was brutal and so hard on my mom, so hard on me. Um I just couldn't assimilate. I couldn't assimilate to other people's energies, kids' energies. I just I you know, um and then looking back, it's like there's definitely some neurodivergence there. There's definitely some um sensitivity to energy. Uh and then the gay piece was right in there with it all. Um so, yeah, and then that carried into, you know, uh growing up and I remember uh you know, to tie the gay piece in, I remember growing up um with I had like a group of gay or a group of guy friends that I hung out with and there was probably like six or seven of us and we were all buds since like super young and it was probably around like grade seven I started to feel really uncomfortable around them because I was starting to have attraction and you know, my my erotic template was very different than theirs and they were starting to talk about theirs and like express about girls and interests and I started to feel like okay, wait, there's something wrong with me. I'm not like this. Why don't I have these these experiences and um Yeah, I'm like do I share this story or not? Um I will actually cuz it's kind of interesting. So we were at this party. We're probably in like grade like nine or something like that. We're at this party and there was a girl I'm not going to mention any names but and she was like giving to all the guys and it was like there was like five of five of us, right? And it was like okay, it's your turn to go back there whatever kind of thing and when it came to my turn I was like completely terrified cuz I'm like oh, I don't want to tell them that I don't want this cuz I'm going to be like they're going to be like what's wrong with you? So I ended up like going back there and like basically just like kind of like hanging out with her like you know, talking with her but like I was like I'm not going to go down that road. Um but that was it had a deep impact on me because I was like wow, like I don't I'm not belonging sexually. I'm not belonging with other boys. Like so what ended up happening was I was starting to get like a lot of fear and anxiety around hanging out with other boys and so I started hanging out with girls and around that time I was probably I don't know. Yeah, probably grade seven, eight, something like that and uh I think all the guys that I grew up with were like I don't know what's up with him. Like why is he not wanting to hang out with us? That sort of thing but then I just started to hang out with girls all the way through high school and then around 18 at the very end of high school I came out and it was probably not a surprise to anybody, but it was I was probably the last one to fully kind of accept and and realize this about myself. So, um yeah, and I think the the the belonging injury for me was just noticing energy, noticing other male energy to how they would react to my energy, and sometimes it wasn't even overt. It was very much like, you know, and that's the hard thing about being an empath is I can feel people's energies, I can feel people's emotions and their their inner world responses to me, and I could feel people being like, "Oh, like this guy's like weird. He's different. He's not like us." And yeah, it's hard. It's hard to carry that sort of stuff um throughout life. So, yeah. Yeah. >> Did you have male uh best friends or friends in in that era or were you like only girls? >> So, well, all my friends growing up were male, and then what at that point, I stopped hanging out with them. I started hanging out with all females. So, all my all my friends were girls. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I had a few a few friends, and funny enough, one of my really close buddies growing up uh from probably grade 10, 11, 12, um I ended up finding out that he was gay after. >> Mhm. >> And he I didn't know at the time, but we were both gay, and we were like hanging out all the time, and nothing ever happened to sexual or anything like that, but so it's kind of interesting how the universe works like that, you know? It's like >> I I had a couple of >> not knowing not knowing. >> Yeah. Yeah, you could have. I wish I had known. Actually, funny you say that, I was just chatting today with a guy from my high school, actually my elementary school. Went to the same elementary school. Turns out he's gay. But I was asking because I had a couple close gay, or sorry, male friends, and they maintained a friendship with me well into adulthood to this day. We don't live in the same area anymore, but they were I felt that they were safe because they were also like more studious, intellectual kind of guys and we would like talk about those things and we'd be more focused on academics in school than like all those other things and so I felt safe with them because of the interest and I will say that I felt I belonged with them in that way with other guys in that sense but then with girls in high school I felt like I belonged in like the we're going to kiki we're going to like and also I like all the same music and all the same magazines and secretly all the same boys but I just wouldn't necessarily say that so it's it's interesting how you know we can belong with both both kind of groups not that I was trying to fit in cuz I was authentically me in both instances but it's kind of like which parts of me do I put online for which group? >> Yeah. When you were sharing I just had this feeling it was this feeling that I remember having as a kid when I was like a gay boy and I didn't want anybody to know it was almost this feeling of like I didn't want them to know me better than I know myself and it's like you know how everyone's like oh he's gay you know and they're talking behind your back like I had this fear of people talking behind my back about me being gay before I even had a chance to accept it within myself and it's just this really yucky feeling of being exposed right? And like people like judging you and rejecting you for something that you're struggling so hard to love and and and not reject within yourself you know? >> Yeah. >> It's a lot of work. >> It takes an emotional toll. >> Yeah. >> Big time. >> >> All right well listener viewer what is this bringing up for you? Take a moment and maybe pause the video or the podcast and just take a moment and reflect on this question for yourself cuz this is one that it's sometimes it's you got to go a little deeper it might be a little bit buried cuz I came in with something to share and it's very different listening to Michael and Reno and like so maybe what we're sharing is stimulating something for you so take a moment and just reflect how did growing up gay affect your sense of belonging? And see what comes up for you. >> >> And if you want to come and join us in these conversations around growing up gay and what this means to you and the impact it's had on you, come and join our connection circles. They happen twice a month. Michael hosts one, I host one in the Gamers Brotherhood. So if you go to gamersbrotherhood.com, go to the event section to RSVP. You can find everything that's happening as far as our online events in our community there. All right. Second question, what does belonging mean to you? And how do you find belonging in your life now, Reno? >> Mhm. Yeah, you echoed it back to me earlier, but um it's an inclusion of self. Um a welcoming an inviting of an acceptance of a celebration of an appreciation of um a loving of self. Mhm. And um and and parts of self. Which can change and evolve moment to moment to to moment. And it's interesting like if I'm to um to get a bit like meta here as I do. What I find really fascinating um and intriguing is like this um this um the way life the way my rela- the way my relationship to life and my relationship to self work in in tandem in a way. Like life is always presenting itself to me. And then and giving me opportunities to let's say um invite it into belonging or not. Um and then similarly, it's also presenting me with opportunities. Um you know, to to belong or not. Um to you know, it it's this very interesting thing though because I I noticed like I see that and then I see my relationship to myself and these different moments where I'm moving through life and I'm presented with opportunities as well to belong to myself. And so these two things kind of work in tandem in this interesting way. Life becomes a mirror, I become a mirror. Um and a way of noticing perhaps like where I'm belonging or not. Um where I'm rejecting or inviting belonging, etc. etc. And so um you know, coming back to the the the question here. Um I find belonging in meeting the moment and meeting myself in the moment like moment to moment, you know. By meeting what arises and what occurs with increasing openness, curiosity, um willingness, um at most like love, acceptance, appreciation, and celebration, you know. Um which isn't always easy. You said something earlier in that that like um It's funny. I I got quiet and I didn't like I had to digest it because you said something that honestly made me kind of tender when you said it and it was curious to me and you said I don't I don't choose it. You're know, like honestly, I don't choose it. It's just it's just like who I am, you know? Um this journey you've been on of being different, so to speak. Um and and that and and that being like your I don't know, like fate, if you will, or something like that. >> Yeah. >> Um I really like I there was a compassion like a compassion and empathy and openness and tenderness, a kind of um even like a reverence in that moment. I was like, "Oh, yeah. It's so interesting. Each of our unique journeys and expressions are so sacred and so unique to each of us and and um um I just feel really grateful. And then increasingly, I get to a place where I can honor that. Um because I've honored it in myself. You know, I'm able to honor it in another. It's like, "Okay. Cool." Like that. Each of us is up to what we're up to. For some reason unbeknownst to us even, like it's so it's so big in some cases and and something that is a lifelong discovery. Um you know, and and there's something like very sacred about that. And so I'm just increasingly in the practice of honoring that in myself. Like this is where I'm at. This is what occurs to me. This is what makes sense to me. This is what's showing up um you know, in this moment. And then just like welcoming it in. Really welcoming it. Like all and like all of it, you know? All like all of it. Um even part like it's funny. I don't know why I'm thinking about this, but it's like you know, sometimes I'll get like a boner, right? Like I'll get an erection or something in this like random strange moment. And I remember saying one time and you know, maybe people listening are thinking and you're listening right now and you're thinking like what like what where is this going? Like what what does this have to do with anything? But I remember one time I was like, oh, I feel like I'll know that I've reached like you know, some that some pinnacle of self-acceptance and self-confidence and self-love when I can when I can get a boner like publicly and just move through the world erect without trying to sort of tame it or diminish it or judge it or feel wrong about it, you know, like it's so funny and so interesting. And that brings to mind this whole other conversation around like our sexuality belonging, right? Like the sexual part of us cuz even in your own story when you were sharing it's interesting how the shift for you and for so many of us started when attraction came in and when sexuality showed up like it's this big thing that there's so much stigma and taboo around. And I guess for me it just it was it was one of these symbols of of you know, of belonging to myself of a level of comfort and self-confidence and self-belonging to be like yeah, I have a boner. So what? You know, it's so much more than that. It it it's not just about that. It's about so much more. It's about belonging to myself and you know, and accepting myself regardless. >> Yeah. >> Maybe you should write a book called Belonging to My Boner. >> Honestly. Yeah, truly. yeah. Yeah. >> Don't walk in front of a school with that boner. >> What's that? Well, you know, right, exactly. Yeah. >> be some guardrails on >> Well, for sure, yeah, absolutely. But even you saying that it's so funny because it's also like, you know, I'm thinking about like if I had a son, for example, or, you know, like a son or like even a daughter, you know, daughter gets her period or starts to like develop breasts, you know, or a son son's starts to get like a boner, right? And there's this big It's like, "Oh my god." You know, it's this big thing and there's so much attached to it. And I just think like um there's so much more going on there like what what I'm trying to say here like um this is just one glaring example of an opportunity for belonging to be cultivated where it's often not, you know? Yeah. >> Yeah, I I want to just um share cuz you had said that the my comment made you feel tender and I and thank you for sharing that. >> Yeah. >> It's interesting cuz I have like a dual a dua- duality in the way that I view this. One through my ego {slash} personality and one through my soul. I'm a I believe my my beliefs tell me that I before my soul chose to inhabit this physical body, it chose my life plan. Like this is the you got to go through and a lot of them go through the door of belonging injuries, healing that. So, I know that I'm on this beautiful dharmic or karmic path of like healing all this stuff in this lifetime from probably many past lives of feeling excluded or I call them like witch wounds, like you were burned at the stake for being different and all these sorts of things. And it can be lineage, it can be ancestral, it can be all sorts of stuff. So, I think that's what's happening, but yet my ego hates it because I'm like, why do I have to go through all of this strife and all this struggle around feeling different and feeling like I don't belong, but when I land into like my truth and like I really can feel from a soul place, I know I'm exactly where I need to be on my path, you know? And that's how I know I've learned to like also embrace my journey as you know, yeah. >> I don't think people realize how how sacred that is. I mean, we do, but I think increasingly we do when we hold our own belonging um in reverence, you know? Then that it becomes so much easier to hold another's in reverence and that's why I can sit down with somebody who doesn't share my politics or share my lived experience, etc. and be in communion with them, um you know, when we're not like at each other because we're we're different, you know? But that like I said earlier, there there were these moments with some of the boys and men through the years that I got to sit down with and connect and commune with in this really like intimate way. And it was in those moments that our differences weren't clashing, like they were there, they were present, but they didn't clash and they could appreciate me and I could appreciate them. >> Yeah. >> And um there's so much like love there, you know? It's it's um yeah. Um but it starts here. It starts here. Like I have to belong to myself first, you know? >> Yeah. >> Mr. Michael. >> Michael. >> What a big question. What does belonging mean to you and part two, how do you find belonging in your life now? So, I'm going to answer it in the order in which it was asked. Um great segue of Arena was just saying is that, you know, when we talked about belonging, I was going to ask you Matt when you had asked the question and I thought I'll just I'll just take it where I want to take it. Like the first thing I thought was I'll belong to what, right? Like like is it belonging to self, that's self-trust. Is it belonging to another person, which is intimacy, whether it's sexual or not, doesn't matter. And then there's belonging to a group, which is kind of like I I feel like I have a seat at the table here. So, I I took this as as part as the the third one, belonging to a group. Okay? So, at the highest level what I would say belonging means to me on that front, um, there's three components to it. It's it's feeling accepted. I have a seat at the table. Valued. My presence at that table matters. And it's authentic. It's it's truly my goal. It's not a performance version of me, it's not a mask version of me, and it's not a hiding version of me. And those three need to be uh active, need to be true for me to really truly feel belonging. You could have two out of three, which is good, but the best belonging for me is when all three hit. And so, an example of maybe when you have two out of three, um, is let's say you have a family who loves you and they truly love you, but you can't talk about being gay around them. They're like, "We love you, we just don't want to hear about it." Okay? So, in that case, you're valued and you're accepted, but you're not authentic because you need to hide something that's very authentic to you. And so, in that case, it's kind of a two out of three. So, I'm always looking for those three out of three kind of moments, acceptance, value, and authenticity. Okay. So, the second part of the question was, how do you find belonging in your life now? This is an interesting one because in this sense of belonging and in the um partnership one, it's relational. You need someone else. You can't just you can't just belong. I can't just decide I belong. Um, Um, so it's co-created, it's relational, and that's the part that I think is the difficult part because we don't I don't control other people. I don't get to decide if people like me, want me, value me, anything like that. I only get to decide how I show up in spaces. So, the way that I like to um, find belonging in my life now is not focus so much when I focus on other people, what I can't control, I get all out of whack. People Why are people like this? People suck. Why are they so superficial? Why why why why the world sucks and I just get really down and it actually is detrimental to me as a person. So, I need to focus on Yes, it's relational and I don't control part of it. I got to surrender that part. But then I think, okay, well, what do I get to control here? What Like it's not my choice if people don't invite me to the table, but the experience to uh, have belong like the capacity to experience the belonging when I am at the table, that's on me. >> Yeah. >> So, as I said earlier, I would walk into a room and automatically, no, I don't belong here. Not give anybody a chance. So, my job is to not do that. My job is to say, okay, I'm in the room. Let's see what happens here. Let's not shut everybody out. Let's not judge, right? And that's the biggest thing I think. One of one of the biggest things I think that that we do is we judge people and then that shuts off belonging immediately. So, we need to quit that. So, what are the things I control? I control what I do. I control putting myself out there. Do I put myself out there or do I stay home and complain? Uh, the spaces in which I choose to put myself, that I have control over. Do I go into like a nightclub situation or do I go into like a book club or do I go into something else, some other activity organization? Um, taking initiative, putting yourself out there, um, dedicating time and space to to doing this cuz finding friendship and finding community as an adult is very, very hard. When we were in school, we had no choice. We spent eight hours a day there. You you're going to find some friends. As an adult, it becomes a lot harder. So, you really do need to dedicate time and space to this. Um letting people in when people do show up, letting them in, uh letting that guard down one one brick at a time, uh showing up for them, right? Being inclusive of them, because don't forget, you don't control whether they include you, but you get to control whether you include them, right? So, you can walk up to somebody who looks kind of shy, alone in the corner, and say, "Hey, what's your name? Are you like what what you doing here? I'm Michael, nice to meet you." That you have control over. And so, as you create more of those bonds and take ownership of this, ideally, in a perfect world, the space just becomes more inclusive and belonging is naturally born out of it. All this to say, focus on the things you can con- control, cuz when I focus on the things I can, I get very very jaded. And it's not a pretty scene, and that's when I'm like, "I hate everybody. I hate these people. Why are they like this?" Um yeah, I guess I'll I'll leave it there for now. >> Yeah. Is there a Is there any environment that you feel is really easy for you to belong? That you don't even have to try. It's just easy. >> Well, I mean, besides the one that I'm in, like cuz it's it's the status quo. I mean, I feel like that's a cop-out answer. Um I really do, oddly enough, like gay spaces. And I know that um these days that we don't really There people would argue that they're not really necessary, cuz we've been so uh included in the world. Uh but I really still do appreciate and and enjoy a gay space, like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I find that's really easy for me, because it just it creates um a lot of less guesswork. Like >> Yeah. >> I just know I kind of even though we're very different, like I just feel safer there. Uh just be a product of how I grew up, but I love those spaces. I I do think we need them. And I do think that it's also okay to have uh inclusionary spaces of the whole LGBTQ+, and also straight gay, it doesn't matter, but I do find gay specific spaces I I tend to do better in given I'm in the right head space. Not always. Sometimes it can go the opposite way if I'm in my high judgy mode. >> >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's easy to slide into comparison. >> Yeah. >> I find gay spaces are are really important as a single as a well if you're just speaking for myself being single. If I'm partnered and I'm monogamous, like I don't really cuz then there's the element of the room no guesswork in in spaces. I'm not I'm not needing to know who's gay or straight or whatever. I'm just looking to connect with people to connect, right? But when it's comes to dating, like cuz I'm the kind of guy that I'm like I'll find the one straight dude at the at the bar and I'll be like, "Yeah." Ask him I'll ask him out, right? It's like so it is good to go in spaces where you know that everyone's going to be gay. Hopefully. >> And when you walk into any space, but when you walk into any space, but even the ones that you want to be in, like my initial thought, and it wasn't it wasn't a conscious thought, it was subconscious, so I really think about this, was nobody wants me here or I don't like anybody here. It's what it was one of those. Either I don't like anybody or nobody likes me. And again, like when I go into a space with that mentality, even if I'm showing up, it doesn't count if you're going in with the shitty attitude. So I replaced that with let's see what let's see what happens. Let's see how this goes. Let's see who I can connect with today. Maybe there's one person here who could be really fun to meet. Uh and and guess what, guys? Like 99% of the time that's the experience I find is the one that I go in with the head space of let's see what happens. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Be open to surprises. Choose the right rooms. I'm not saying go into a room that's not going to be good for you. Choose the right rooms that are best fit for you and in what you enjoy. And also be open to surprises and be present. Don't be on your phone the whole time. >> Yeah. Well, how many times as gay men are we creating that that notion of people don't like us, right? And we we we lead with that, so we have this mean girl gaze persona that we put up cuz we want to beat them to the punch. If they're going to reject us, we want to reject them first. Becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because then guess what? When you come into an environment with a mean gay attitude, you're going to you're going to get people being like that back to you. So you're creating your own reality. So it's like how can we approach like I love this Michael cuz it's like how can we approach a a group of people regardless of whether they're gay or straight with just trying to be open, not be judgmental, not beat them to the punch. It's like if they're going to reject me for being gay, that's okay. I can I can let them reject me. I don't have to try and reject them first cuz then you're just you're you're severing connection, possible connection, you know? >> Yeah. You know what? You say that and I and I'm saying this but I I still fall into that trap where I will prejudge people. All that because but because they have that like you know, kind of like don't look at me, don't talk to me face. But I I know why why that is. But either way, when they have that face, then I I meet them with that same face. I'm like, "Okay, fine. We're going to like do this standoff-y catty thing." And then this happened 2 days ago. There's this guy at the gym who always has that kind of face and we cross each other's paths all the time. Yet another example of like the the universe proving me wrong and humbling me. And I've just thought, "Oh, this is one of those gym gays. Fine." And lo and behold, I'm walking out and he's like, "You smell really good. What what cologne is that? I always smell that on you and I just want you to know you smell so nice." And I'm like, "What?" Wasn't flirting with me. It was truly like I didn't I didn't get any flirty vibes. But he just was like all of a sudden after months of like being at the gym at the same time as this guy, he said something nice and I immediately softened to him. >> Aw. >> And it's interesting how that happens, right? And I've told stories I've done this at the beach, at clubs, like all of the time. I go in with, "Oh, these people are like that." And then the universe humbles me. And so I I just wish I mean, I'm going to forget this probably tomorrow. But you know, I'm glad that the universe keeps reminding me and and my um I guess my mantra out there for everybody is, yeah, be open to people surprising you cuz you don't always know. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a cute story. I like that. >> And now when I see him I'm going to be like, "Hey." >> Yeah. Now you have a buddy at Jim. >> Right. Yeah. All because he he had the courage to say to say what he said and then come with a really nice way to do it. So. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we all don't need to be ice queens. We can let ourselves melt a little bit and be a little friendly. >> But it's interesting how I waited for him, right? See, now if we just kept doing this whole dance of we don't we're going to pretend we don't like each other, this is exactly what it is. But it just took one person, in this case him, to have that moment. Yeah. >> Yeah, that's good. He followed his nose. >> Yeah. I mean, I do smell good, so. >> >> Okay, what does belonging mean to me? Um. Yeah, there's so many words that stand out from what you guys are sharing, like welcoming. I just think that's my new word. And it's about welcoming myself, letting myself be welcomed, right? Like I'm I can do that, too. Where it's like I'm like go frozen in a social situation where I'm like I don't right? So I'm how can I welcome myself? Um. But yeah, feeling included and appreciated for who I am and just getting to be myself. That's like the biggest thing now and I don't I don't fit in now. Like I just it's just something like I if I do it, I will I can't. I actually can't do that anymore, you know? I've done too much work on myself that fitting in will just make me cringe at myself. So I'm like I'm now at the a place in my life where I'm like if I can't if I can't belong in in an environment, I'm not going to be in that environment. So I'm going to only put myself in places where So a lot of my belonging and sense of belonging has come from finding my people. >> Yeah. >> Right? And my I used to in my 20s, I had so many friends. I was like so popular, air quotes popular, and then now I have focused on quality, not quantity. So I my friend group is so much smaller and I'm okay with that and it feels good. So, I'm learning and this is coming later in life. Like I still haven't fully found my people yet. I don't think. Like I've definitely found some of my people and I have my soul people that are are on my path with me and and whatever, but I think there's also Yeah, there's there's there's more people to come. I feel that, right? More more soulmates so to speak. I think I have many soulmates in this life and I think there's there's there's more coming. So, I'm excited for their arrival. Um And then I wrote down here identity blocks belonging and I'm learning this about myself because the more I hold on to concepts of myself, the less belonging I can actually allow myself to experience. I have this idea of like who I am or who I should be to be attractive or cool or these sorts of things and then when I'm not those things, I feel like I So, I'm I'm learning how to let go of identity and just be presence and just You know what? And it's it's so hard to do. I don't know why this is so freaking hard to do it for myself. I don't know if other people experience this, but it's like why do we have such a hard time letting go of identity, you know? And and so I can just let myself be, right? And like belong to different groups and and these sorts of things. So, I think part of it is letting go of my own judgments of myself and I think that's I feel like I'm a late bloomer in this area, but it's coming. It's coming along. I'm learning how to be more gentle with myself. And I wrote down here belonging is a feeling that I have. It's like I like the way you framed it, Michael, cuz it's like often times we think of belonging as this belonging to a group or community, but it's like there's a belonging to self, belonging to other, belonging to group. And that's what I mean, it's a feeling. It's it originates inside of ourselves. Like we have to have this sense that we are worthy of belonging and that we can even visualize ourselves belonging before we belonging can actually happen. So, it doesn't just happen from action. It can. Like someone a group of people could be like, "You know what? Come, we want you to be part of our group and we can feel a sense of belonging." But we can also not let that belonging in and we cannot So, it has to kind of be this like inner and outer dance of like feeling it, but then also like taking action to find it and allow it to happen. Um And I wrote down we lead people into how they feel about us. I I I can't remember why I wrote that, but it's like I'm learning that like even being gay, like there's so many times where I'm like I'll tell people I'm gay and it's like it's nothing. They don't give a And even if they're conservative or they don't really It's nothing to them, right? Cuz I lead with such a confidence about being gay cuz I don't hold any shame about being gay anymore. But I I know like when I when sometimes people are like really unsure about themselves or or something that they're trying to embody and they're not confident about it, I'm like I don't think I'm confident in them either. Like I have this feeling. So, we always got to keep in mind like we're leading people into how they feel about us, how they see us, how they view us, all these things. It's like we're the leader in that, right? So, I think it's That's why I think um you know, and maybe that's why self-concept is important cuz we need to like be a little bit more sure of who we are to be able to like lead people into uh seeing us the way we want to be seen. But >> >> yeah. >> Yeah. What's uh what's the space Matt that you feel most comfortable being yourself in? >> At home. >> >> With other humans? >> Without other humans around. No, uh probably when I'm when I'm hiking. >> Okay. >> And I'm not and and there's like loose conversation happening, but it's kind of just like fun and loose and right? So, there's that element like um Yeah. Like I don't do good at in like to go to like a dinner party and like you have to have all these like conversations with people where where it's like stuffy and you have to, you know, tell people things that are happening in your life and those things like small talk. I don't do good in that those environments. Like I do good in environments where the energy's chill, it's not loud, and there's not a bunch of crazy distractions. Like nature's perfect for me. And and the conversations just kind of like, yeah, it just flows and you know. >> Like like sounds like no pressure, no expectation. Low low pressure, low expectation, yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. Then you can kind of approach it at your own pace. >> Authentic. Like I I don't like pretension. Like I I can't cuz I don't I don't like pretending. I don't I don't even know how to be pretentious. So it's like it feels like I I get socially awkward when when like I see people being pretentious and like I can feel that they're not being genuine. I'm just like, "Oh, I don't I get me out of here." >> Yeah. I feel you. >> Yeah. All right. Any parting comments from either of you guys? >> Mm. >> No. There I I think this this might be like a future conversation. But I was thinking about what you said about judgment and um Yeah, I just think it's a really powerful tool um in noticing our judgments. Um it's a really powerful tool, I think, for cultivating belonging. >> Yeah. >> noticing where our judgments lie and um >> Yeah. >> Big time. >> And softening around that, that work can be really powerful in cultivating um belonging to ourselves, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, cuz life is a mirror in a way. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, like learning how to let people be as they are. >> Yeah. >> And still be okay with that. I think we live in a world where if somebody's not like you, especially politically or um these sorts of things like it's like we immediately want to judge them and reject them and say I can't belong to wherever they belong to and I think so yeah, that's a good conversation. We can have a conversation about Yeah, judgement. >> >> I'd love that one. >> >> Yeah. We'll make it our own little therapy session. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> >> All right. Yeah, the coaching collection. So our coaching collection is a great place if this is an area where you struggle. I think we've built this whole Brotherhood the whole coaching collection as a way to kind of mitigate belonging injuries, right? We have a pathway on confidence. We have a pathway on body positivity, community and and building relationships. These are all of these things are going to be things that can help you find a greater sense of belonging. So if you're wanting to do some work but you're not wanting to work with a therapist or a coach, we have built up a program. And we have in the coaching collection, we have 45 videos in those four different streams and then we have our building better relationships course, which is a six-week course and our healing your shame course, which is another six-week course all within that same package. I think we're offering it for $199. It's it's very affordable and that will give you like almost probably six months of content to go through and learn and grow at your own pace. So if that's something you're interested in, go to gaymen going deeper.com for more information there. And Let's Yeah, thank you for coming on this journey with me today, guys. >> Thank you. >> Listener viewer as well. And hopefully we'll see you at our um connection circles. We love to see our fellow listeners there. And uh for everything you can go to gaymensbrotherhood.com. Until next time, everybody. Much love.