stalking, harassment, or emotional abuse. Why didn't she just block him? Why did she continue? And why didn't she see the signs? My world came crashing down that day. And you fell really hard for him. >> Yeah. Just because it was so intense. They then asked me for money. >> Was it a lot of money, aren't you? >> At that point, it was like £1.2 million worth of money that he defrauded. I would feel triggered if my phone vibrated. I thought, "How can I do this to myself?" >> You gave him money once, you gave it to him again. What made you give it to him the second and third time? >> I feel scared actually a little bit now like saying all of this. I'm sure at some point he'll see this, but then I would get comments saying like, "Aren't you, you look really dead behind the eyes. Tell us today the full truth, the whole truth about your story. So often when we hear around stalking, harassment, or emotional abuse, we ask the wrong questions. Well, why didn't she just block him? Why did she continue? And why doesn't she see the signs? But the truth is, in these situations, they don't start with fear. They start with charm, with connection, and with someone who knows exactly how to make you feel seen, special, and chosen. And by the time you realize that something's probably wrong, you're already trapped in confusion, in guilt, and a lot of the time we have shame. My guest today is Unchall, and she's lived through this. And she's opening up about her experience being lovebombed, stalked, and harassed, and the painful truth of how narcissistic manipulation can blur the lines between love and control. This conversation isn't about blame. It's about reclaiming your story, breaking the stigma, and reminding anyone listening who has ever been manipulated, gas lit, or made to feel small. It is not your fault. As someone who works online, I ask you to keep an open mind in this conversation to treat Unchel with respect and to understand how difficult it is to experience something like this and then to talk about it because you want to help other people feel heard and seen. I thank you all for always listening and watching this podcast. And if you'd like to hear more incredible stories about how people have pushed through really difficult situations, make sure you subscribed. I'm really, really looking forward to hearing this conversation of how Unaw has overcome such a difficult thing with grace. So, let's get into it. Unaw. >> Hey, girl. >> Welcome back to a millennial mind. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're here almost 3 years later. >> I am. >> And you know what? It's really interesting because I remember when I interviewed you for my podcast, your episode was the one that made me realize I needed to quit my job. >> Really? >> Because I don't know if you remember, I was I came and I was running. I remember I was sweating. I saw you in the reception and the first thing I said to you, bearing in mind I had no idea who you were and like to me, you were like this really famous OG influencer. You still are. Um, but I see you in I see you in the reception and I say, "Oh my god, you're early." again. >> And you were like, "Yeah, but don't worry about it." Like, "Hi, nice to meet you." And I was like, "Hey." I was, "I'll just be one second." And I went to the toilet. I got changed. And I was so flustered. >> You were flustered. I remember that. >> I was so flustered. And then I was late, so we had to then go up straight away. We did the podcast. I had so much fun with you on the podcast. I just felt it was such a good conversation. And immediately after I had to leave. >> Yes. And I remember coming back from that, like going to the office cuz I was still in my corporate job, thinking I was so upset that I didn't get a chance to actually connect with you and be friends with you and really kind of give you a good experience of coming on my podcast. It would just felt like I like used and abused you, you know, like I was just like, "Hey, do the podcast. Get out, you know, like quickie." And I remember thinking like this can't happen again. And from that moment is when I started taking half days, sorry, >> to do my podcast. It wasn't when I quit. It was when I started taking half days cuz I used to just take like an hour at lunchtime. >> Yeah. And rush down. >> But this is when I took half days. So I had like 3 or 4 hours. >> Okay. >> So that was when >> Oh, I love that. >> I love that. And I didn't feel like it was a quickie. >> You felt loved. >> Yeah, I felt loved. Maybe that's a problem that I need to address. But yeah. No, but I'm I'm really excited to have you on today and I know it's not necessarily an exciting topic that we once had, but I think it's a really important one because you've shared your journey online around stalking, harassment, being lied to, and being in a relationship with a narcissist. And I think >> a lot of people resonate with that. A lot of people have been in really difficult relationships and what happens is that they put their back up and they think, "I'm never going to get over this and I'm never going to trust anyone again." Mhm. >> And you're here to change my mind that we can heal, >> we can trust again, >> and we can love again. >> We absolutely can. >> But for people who haven't watched the videos that you've shared online, tell us today the full truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about your story. >> Okay. Absolutely. I'm ready to get into it with you. So, um, this was three three and a half nearly four years ago. So, I was actually when I came on your podcast, I was in the crux, >> no way, >> of hell. And I just was not the same person that I am here today. Cuz I was just I I'd been through it at that point. But what had happened was I met this person and at that time I think I was naive, shall we say? I didn't know what love bombing was, right? And this person love bombed me. And I mean, who doesn't want to feel good, you know? Who doesn't want a lot of attention from someone, someone to um take them out? Uh just constantly constantly be so attentive and kind kind in inverted commas. There was just so much. And I I just had no clue what love bombing was. So, I was almost lapping it up, shall we say. How old were you? I was I had just turned 30. >> Okay. >> I had just turned 30 and I'm now 34. >> So, it's been a real journey. Yeah. >> Um and at that time I was at such a high point in my life. I had released my book. I had my podcast. I had bought my own house. Um and I just moved into my own home as well. So, I was truly just on a high and doing things solo. And then I meet this person and I almost felt like I'm ready to have this now next stage of my life. You know, it just makes sense, you know, for for this person to come and fit into my life. They're being so kind, so supportive. They love what I do. Um, you know, >> you do meet a lot of people in this when you're in this industry that >> kind of don't respect >> of course the job >> or that you're online. So when you find someone that is like wow la you know you're you then take interest in that person >> of course. >> So shortly after they then asked me for money. Now >> wait wait wait wait hold. You're jumping. You're jumping here. >> I'm jumping. Sorry. >> How long were you dating them for? >> Okay. The total time that I dated this person was 8 weeks. >> Wow. the total time. >> Okay. So, how long were you dating them before they asked you for money? >> Uh, it was about 4 weeks in. >> Okay. And how did they ask you for money? What was it that they said they needed? Right. So, this person said that they had a business and this is one of the things that they were trying to connect with me on. And this is what KNS do. They'll find things that they'll have in common with you. So it's like, oh, you know, I really admire that you have your own business. I'm trying to do my own at the moment. And D. So me being an empath, you know, and someone that is supportive of someone that wants to start their own business and understands how difficult it is. I'm going to be like, yeah, oh, that's amazing that you want to do that. And, oh, wow, you feel inspired by me. That's really nice. >> Yeah. Um, and I think that's also a really I I don't want to um take that reaction away from me like from myself. I still want to continue to be that way because just because someone has done me wrong or used my my kindness to do me wrong, I'm going to I'm I'm not going to change my reaction. I would still continue to be empathetic and supportive if someone >> was on their journey. But anyway, this person had to they were doing this type of business where they had to show uh a certain amount of money in order to win other businesses um to to win these contracts. Sorry. >> Okay. So, they had to show that they had a certain amount of money in their account to to win contracts. >> Okay. and they had like this whole PDF file of their business, you know, every everything. I asked for all the proof. I asked for contracts. I actually also said no a few times first because I just bought my house. And everyone knows when you buy a house, it's >> crazy. All your money's gone. >> But I had money left because I my plan was to renovate my house. So, um, I didn't just I I had a plan. Sorry, this this story is like so intense that it's it's hard to sometimes piece it together. The So, I'd said no a few times. I also then felt guilt because this person was telling me that this is the next step for us. If he's able to win these things and exceed in his career, then, you know, it's only going to work out better for us and what he wants to do with our relation, you know, like >> having just kind of telling me all the things I want to hear. Um, and so eventually I started to feel guilty. I >> at this point, how long were you dating him for? A month. >> This is a month. >> Okay. >> And you felt really hard for him? >> Yeah. Just because it was so intense. so quickly because of everything that he was doing. He was taking me out. He was just everything I anything I needed. I needed a lift here and there. Um what just on the first date he bought me a housewarming gift which now when I look back I think >> that's nice. >> At the time it was nice. >> Wait, what's wrong with that? I feel like that is like a good thing. No, >> no, it's too much. >> What a house. What was the gift? >> It was a cheeseboard. >> Okay. What's wrong with that? It's too much, too soon. >> Hold on. No way. >> I just met you. >> Hold on. You know when you go on a date with someone, right? First I actually had this debate with someone the other day, right? Okay. What? Okay, I'm going off topic here about everyone. I know that I am. What's your thoughts on walking dates? >> Like if you meet someone for the first time and they ask you to go for a walk, what are your thoughts? >> It's quite cute. >> Thank you. I agree. >> Some girls think it's a nogo and it's like >> cuz it's free. cheap. Yeah. And it's like the guy's making no effort. I fundamentally disagree. And I was having this conversation with these two girls and she was just like, "If a guy does not take me to a restaurant and if he cannot afford to pay £150 or £100 on our first date, I don't want to know him." And I was like, >> "You are like you like I'm not going to say it, but you know what I'm thinking." I was like, "What the hell?" Like, I don't understand that. And she was even like, "I expected a guy to bring me a present on the first date." >> Now, my dad was like, "I gave mom a present on her first date. I used to buy I bought her a perfume. >> Okay. >> But like some people would be like provider mindset, >> right? >> Old school thinking, woo the girl. But you're saying red flag. >> I'm saying wo, slow down. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> I don't think I would I would think like it's a red flag. I didn't think it was a red flag. So I don't think you should think like in hindsight you that should have been a point where you should have be like >> I think it's because of everything else that I'm like and the gift piecing it together it's like this was intense from day one but I think objectively like bringing someone a cheeseboard as a moving in gift when they've just moved house and you're going on a date it's quite cute. >> It is quite cute. It is quite cute. I'm just saying no I'm not forgiving him. Okay. >> I'm not asking you to. Oh my god. No. I'm on your side. I'm just saying that like like that I wouldn't say that you should have picked up as a flag. >> No. Yeah. It was just at the time I didn't pick it up as a flag. I thought I thought how lovely, how kind, how thoughtful. But with everything else, >> the the present then felt like it was part of the plan. >> It was part of the plan to love bomb me. I think this is very important to mention. The reason I mentioned that, by the way, is all of these things in isolation that will happen that you're going to share with me, >> I bet you, >> are not weird alone. >> Yeah. >> All of these things individually, you know, you just think about asking for money. >> Yeah, that's weird. Obviously, we'll get to that. But I'm saying all these little things that someone does to love bomb you, you like it's very easy for someone to just to think someone loves me. >> And it's not like you're I want to just say this as a like a pre thing. It's not you're stupid. You're not like you've you're dumb or all these things. And I had this conversation with Sweet Bobby as well, like Kieran from Sweet Bobby. >> I think it's so easy for people to say like, >> "You should have known that as a red flag. >> Can you tell?" No, >> but these things in isolation and that's how your brain looks at them in isolation at the time are not weird. So that's why I wanted to point that bit out. By the way, >> I agree. And people need to give people grace. Yeah, they need to give people grace because when you're in it, you can't see it. Sometimes you just cannot see it. And everyone else around you, you're telling them this and this is happening. No one can see it until the penny drops. >> Yes, 100%. >> So, that's that. >> Yeah. >> Um, but yeah, I did ask for contracts. I said no. I then showed my accountant at the time. I wanted to make sure everything was legit. And um, my accountant said it all looks legit to me. So, it all depends on just what you want to do. >> Yeah. What you want to do. >> Wait, so hold on. This guy, he's like you said, he's like taking you out. You're seeing each other quite a lot. We see each other every day. How? >> Nearly every day. nearly every day for a month. So, it was like very very intense. And then he asked you for the money. How did he ask you for that money? >> Um, he asked me for money in person and he had this huge sobb story about how he needed to win these contracts. He dropped all these big names of all these companies. Um, he had this huge act on that he's already this successful person. He's driving a nice car. He's paying for everything. Um, yeah, he's he's mentioning all these people and all these companies he's worked with. Um, so he's painted an image to me. So to me it's like he he only needs a little bit of help and surely he would only ask if he actually really needed the help. >> True. >> Otherwise, why why would he? >> So after saying no a few times uh and him understanding, he then sent me a message one day and basically was like, "Don't worry about it. I'm really sorry that I asked." >> Um, yeah. And he did that on his own accord. So I felt a lot lighter that okay I'm I'm really glad I didn't have to have this uncomfortable conversation. >> Yes. >> And he's just understood and you know that makes the relationship a little bit better. >> But then he came again and then was asking me for the same money once again and it felt a lot heavier. It felt like there was a lot more guilt involved that if I didn't help then you know how is he going to succeed? I also had this guilt in my head and in my heart that I finally have met this person. This person feels right. You know, they they're treating me well. Yeah. It's more that they're treating me in a certain way that I've never been treated before. >> So, I just thought, well, if I don't and I am a supportive person, so if I don't support the person that I'm supposed to see myself with in the future, then am I going to lose him? >> Yeah. So there was that huge kind of big question in my head and that's kind of why I decided to send in the money. >> Yeah, I really love that you shared that. I think that's so vulnerable and I think that's really open and I I really also do think that, you know, a lot of the time for women. We think that when we meet somebody who is good to us >> that we should just like obey to everything that they ask >> because we're not good enough to get it again. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I really resonate with you there. I really think a lot of women will resonate when when we say this because we just don't believe we're worthy enough of meeting more than one good guy. >> Exactly. >> And I think a lot of women feel that way. >> Yeah. And it was the one time I've just been treated this way. >> Yeah. And you you absolutely can meet more than one good guy. And >> yeah, you go on this whole journey of self love through through these experiences, but also >> you have to remember like I was being treated a certain way because of the love bombing. >> Of course it was. When did you realize that it was love bombing? So you you gave him the money. What happened when you gave him the money? >> Um there was a contract. >> Okay. >> That I would get the money back within a week. And that was sent to your accountant and your accountant proof checked it and it was all legit. >> It was all legit. >> Right. >> Then he asked me for more money and he asked me for more money. >> Right. >> So two more times and >> Did you give it? >> Yeah. >> How do you feel about that when I'm asking you that question? I think it's like a it's hard, isn't it? >> It's really really really hard because >> What do you feel? I feel a part of me feels like why were you so stupid? But at the same and and I I understand a lot of people would probably say the same thing and want to call me the same word but at the same time unless you are in it you just wouldn't understand. >> I completely agree. >> You just wouldn't you would not understand. And I even had my own siblings at one point be like a how could you? >> Right. and like how did you get to that decision? But again, unless you were in my shoes, being manipulated or feeling certain guilt or being at a certain point in your life where you know all your siblings are married, moving on, having kids, and you're kind of you've got this pressure in the back of your head to be like, well, I want that, too, and I I want to move on to that stage. And I've had all of these great successful moments by myself, which I'm so proud of. And now I I feel like I'm ready for this. Yeah. There's there's there's that. So, and because of all of those reasons, I would say I'm not stupid. >> Wow. Wow. Wow. I mean, I really I really resonate with what you're saying because I talk so much on my platform around the pressure to get married, the pressure to be in a relationship. And that sometimes blinds you to certain things and doesn't blind you meaning that you're stupid. It blinds you in the sense that like you are willing to accept someone >> that is so kind and so loving and do anything for them, >> right? Because you have been told that this is your only chance >> and that you're not going to get this again. And you know, you're 30 now and it's not going to come around again. >> I'm 30 now. My brother was getting married at that that exact time that I started dating him. My who's younger than me. >> So, and you know, I'm the last one. So, you know, you're at the wedding and everyone's sort of like asking, eyes on you. But I will say, you know, I don't I've never had that pressure to get married. And we spoke about this last time when I was on your podcast that I don't think marriage is the be all and end all. >> Correct. >> And I think it's really important to >> um have other moments in your life like, you know, >> to be able to buy a house by myself, to be able to run a business and do so many other great milestones. I think should be celebrated a lot more. 100% 100%. I think that it's so interesting with my wedding. They will be the most liked and most engaging posts on my feed. Not the fact that I've done a TED talk. Not the fact that I've interviewed the craziest people on the planet. Not the fact that I've done all these amazing things. All of those likes from my TED talk, my billboard, anything to do with the podcast, anything to do with the business will never ever ever be higher than my wedding post. >> And I find it sad. And I think this is why I had such a complex about my wedding. And I still do, by the way. Like when people when people say to me, "Congratulations." I genuinely forgot I got married 2 months ago. I'm always like, "For what?" And then I'm like, "Oh god." And I'm so scared. Like I think I see people's throwbacks, right? Like 1 month ago, 2 months ago, and I'm like, "Oh my god, get a grip. Like stop posting every minute about your wedding. And I did post a lot about it, right? But this was the thing. I felt in such two minds about posting about my wedding because people were like, "We want to see more. Keep posting about it." Even at L'Oreal the other day, this girl was like, "Can you please post more throwbacks about your wedding?" And I was like, "No, I'm not going to." And she was like, "Why?" I was like really, really loving it. But part of me was like, "Am I doing it because I feel like I should, or am I doing it because I feel like I want to?" And I wanted to on some parts because look, it was a big moment of my life and I loved I loved it way more than I thought I would >> and it should still be celebrated >> and it should be celebrated and it was amazing and just how I would post like this studio or my podcast or anything else that I do. I would post about it. But I do think it's very easy to get so wrapped up into it and like every birthday post or every anniversary post or every Mother's Day post or every Father's Day post is a photo from your wedding. >> Yes. >> And like sometimes I get it that like that's the only photo you have with like your brothers and your friends and your moms or your dads, but like come on. like you really don't need every single post in your life to be about it. But I think we've accepted it as a society. And I think that really weirdly, >> I have never ever felt so loved by people >> compared to when they talk about my wedding. And I think it's because everyone understands what it feels like to be loved. I really was trying to figure it out. I was like, why are people so happy about the wedding? And why are people not happy for me when I'm on a flipping billboard in Leicester Square? Like, why are people not so happy for me about that? It's because they can't understand it. >> But everyone can understand love. >> Love. It's so true. And everyone wants love. >> They do want love. And they want to see you. And they want to see other people find love because >> it's for someone that's currently not in love. >> It's such like a special thing. So if you do find it, it's actually the most beautiful thing to have. >> It really, really is. It's really difficult. I and I'm always in such a battle with this of like >> yeah I want to celebrate like love as much as I can but I also just feel like we do need to shift as a society on understanding that it's just not everything. >> It's not everything so difficult. >> It doesn't take away from having that lowkey pressure. >> It does not. It's like even though my beliefs are really strong in the fact that marriage is is not the be all end all. I've said that for years and years and years, but at the same time and I'm no one else is putting that much pressure on me. It's my internal dialogue in my head that that you know I'm putting on myself and especially >> I know comparison is the thief of joy but when you've got everyone you know around you moving on moving on to certain milestones in their life it's only natural that you're going to want that for yourself. >> Yeah. >> At that point in your life do you feel that because you were looking for that and it was your brother's wedding and there was all this stuff. Do you feel like you didn't listen to your intuition or do you feel like your intuition wasn't actually telling you that there was something wrong? >> Um, that's an interesting question. I think I think I wasn't listening. I couldn't see it. I I genuinely couldn't see it. I was, like I said, I was on such a high of life in general for all of the incredible milestones I'd achieved. >> Yeah. >> Independently >> that I I could never I I it wouldn't even cross my mind that someone would do what they did to me because I wouldn't do that. It's just I don't have it in my capacity to think in a certain way. So, for someone to manipulate me in the way that they did, that is a that's a that's a whole mastermind. I couldn't even I'm I'm not even close. But this is why I think it's really interesting that it's so crazy to me that we blame the victim and we never blame the perpetrator when it comes to anything. By the way, I remember being in a conversation around a dinner table and someone said that this girl was abused in a family and they said that, you know, the parent should never have told the rest of the world cuz everyone will remember her as the person who this happened to. That's really sad. And I just I couldn't hold myself and I said, "Why on earth is it they're going to remember her as the person who was the victim rather than the guy who did that to her? >> Why have you said that?" >> Right? >> Why? And they're like, "Because that's the truth." And I was like, "Only because it's your truth. Only because you're saying that." And I think that, you know, in in every situation, we always blame the person like you're so stupid. You're so dumb. You didn't see it. You should have seen the warning signs. Like you're too soft. You're too nice. But Anro is someone I I know you very well. I wouldn't say that you know you're a softy are you? You're like like me. You are >> tough cookie. >> A tough cookie. And >> I think it's very important that you're sharing this journey so vulnerably because people always like to blame people for their characteristics. >> And it's never the person's fault. It's like if I put an invisible string >> Mhm. >> Yeah. and you're walking and I trip you up. Are you stupid for not seeing it? >> Or is it because I've done something that's manipulative? >> Right. Exactly. I can't understand it. master manipulator then it yeah it's it's not the person no >> on the other receiving end it's really not >> exactly and I think that's why I think it's very important to say that before we move into this part around you giving him money >> again >> you gave him money once you gave it to him again what made you give it to him the second and third time >> just the guilt it was the guilt um >> and he made you feel guilty >> or you felt guilty yourself >> no he made me feel guilty it was the messages it was he was so stressed test again. He was really playing on the fact that he's really stressed and he really needs this and D like this whole story he's he's giving me. And so I felt guilty and for the reasons I've said I felt the pressure. >> Yeah. >> Um and then I'm obviously not getting the money back by the time that it says in the contract. >> Right. And this is this was the the life-changing moment um where we realized and I say we because me and my family um realized what happened like what's actually going on. So >> wait hold on before we go into that. >> Yeah. >> When you had realized that he wasn't giving you the money back >> according to the contract did you confront him? >> Yes. >> And >> he had excuses. He had certain excuses like um and The excuses he gave me was like, "Oh, I'm having problems with my bank and my this and my that." And then he would go with me to the bank. So, I'm g I've gone with him and obviously I'm not standing at his account with him, but he's talking to someone at the bank. I'm there. There's clearly a problem. I can see from far. Um, you know, there is an issue with the bank, >> but I don't know exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Um, so he's kind of again painting this picture to me. >> So he take you takes you to the bank. What? And says like there's an issue. It's like inventing Anna all over again. >> Literally. Literally. It's inventing Anna Tindless with like the whole and yeah, all of it. Um, he take me to the bank. He's having a conversation with someone and they're clearly saying that yeah, you can't get in. You need to contact this person. So, it almost makes it look like, you know, oh, I'm trying to get into my bank and I can't. Yeah. And they're not able to help him at the bank and he needs to contact someone. So, >> it makes sense. >> It makes sense. It makes sense. >> So, then what why would he then say, "I need more money. >> He needs more money to win more contracts with this next thing and this next thing." So, it was all the same story, >> right? >> Same story. Showing me these companies. It was all of that. And at this point, did you share this with anyone else? >> No. This is the thing. >> Why? >> The reason why I didn't, and this is crazy for me as well because I share everything with my siblings, right? >> Especially my brother-in-law, my sisters. Like, I do. And I just didn't because I just felt like, well, I'm a grown ass person. And >> surely I've shared this with my accountant. My accountant has told me it all looks legit. Did you feel embarrassed >> after? >> No. No. No. Sorry. At the time, did you feel embarrassed, which is why you didn't share it? Because why would you >> a little bit? Yeah, I did feel there was a little bit of embarrassment, a little bit of shame, a little bit of like why do I need to go to you and tell you what I want to do just I don't want to be told what to do. Like I'm not a child >> and where I am the like third one I I'm kind of like the baby of the family. >> Yeah. Um, I just, yeah, I felt like, well, I'm in my own relationship and I've checked with someone legit and >> so I know what I'm doing. >> Yeah, I feel like I want to make my own decision here. >> But did you feel a little bit of you that it was wrong, which is why you had this like >> part of me? Yeah. Because I do think like when I know that I'm doing something that's a little bit dodgy like I remember when I was young I bought this phone of Gum Tree >> and it was dodgy >> but like you know and I remember I didn't tell my mom and dad because I was like I know what I'm doing >> like and then obviously I had to tell them because this woman scammed me and they were I told you so >> but a part of you when you're doing something like that I do think that your gut is telling you like >> don't tell anyone because it sounds crazy to say out loud >> but when they're telling you you want to believe it >> that's it. Do you know what I mean? Like you want to believe it. And I wanted to ask you another thing as well is like do you feel >> like because he was asking you for money and cuz you were doing so well and you were so successful. >> It was kind of like a a nice thing like I'm supporting you and I'm able to support you. Not like a I'm better than you, but like I'm able to do that. Like if someone came to me and asked me for money and I guess if I helped them, part of me would feel proud of myself that I was able to be in a financial position to help someone. >> I didn't see it in that way at all. Yeah. Yeah. No. Okay, fine. I wasn't sure cuz I was thinking that could also play into the fact of like, you know, it's a it's a it's a positive thing. >> Yeah. It's not a negative thing. Do you see what I'm saying? >> I get that. He obviously knew he could come to me. Again, I think it was part of the plan. >> Wow. >> Um, >> so you didn't tell your siblings. You didn't tell anyone, but you told your accountant. Was your accountant not following up with you when you know he wasn't paying when he wasn't paying you by the contract deadlines? >> No. No. because I kind of he was he basically said, "Look, you've got the go-ahad because it all looks legit. It's up to you." So, I kind of didn't involve him. >> Yeah. Again, didn't want us to tell him because again, it was like >> Yeah. It was like, "Well, I'm going to get it back within like a week or whatever and this person is going to be in my life. So, >> does it matter?" >> Yeah. Even if it takes like two weeks, it's it's okay, you know, we'll live. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> was it a lot of money, aren't you? >> It was a lot of money. >> Was it in the thousands? >> It was in the thousands. And to this day, I have not said how much because I just can't tell my dad why. >> He knows it's a lot. Um I just as a father, he will just be like, "What are you doing? I let you move out. You left and this is what happens." >> So interesting you say that. Like even the term of like, "I let you move out." Cuz my parents say that to me like, "We let you do so much." And I'm always like, >> "What do you mean you let me? I got my own place. >> I did it myself with my own money. You never helped me with like one penny. So like what are you talking about? >> But it is I I know how you feel in the sense that >> it's scary to say for probably for a multitude of reasons, but it's interesting that your dad is the one person. Do you feel like you let him down or >> Yeah, I do. I feel like my dad is smart when it comes to money. He's a businessman and he inspires me. I you know I look up to him in that respect. So this is like totally against everything >> he's taught you. Yeah. >> Yes. But where I'm different to him is that I have a lot more empathy for people. My dad is a bit more you know well he's not empathetic let's say. >> Yeah. >> So I have a lot more empathy and I do have a softer side. Um and I think that is what kind of took over for me and we all do right. I think you know every woman has a very soft side even if they have like a hard exterior like you and I. I mean people think that I'm so tough but I'm so sensitive. >> And you know it's just because you are able to articulate yourself well and just because you're able to hold your emotions well and you don't break down every time someone says something to you doesn't mean you don't have a soft side. >> So I totally understand that. So you given him this money a few times, right? Were you kind of still in love with this guy or was this at that point where you were getting frustrated with him? >> Um, I thought that I was in love, but I in hindsight looking back, I was not. >> No. >> But at at the point where he was saying, "I'm going to pay you back. I'm going to pay you back." Were you still like, "Okay, it's fine. Everything's okay." >> I was getting frustrated, but I was in my feels. Yeah. I was getting worried. I absolutely was. But a part of me thought like with all his um actions he's showing me how present he is or everything else that he's not going anywhere like so >> he's not going to run off. >> He's not going to run off. >> When did you find out that he was a fraud? >> So 8 weeks in I was out and at the time my sister she had postnatal depression. So I told her if you need to reach out to me for anything you want to talk just send me an emoji and cuz sometimes you know it's too much for someone's feeling sad or feeling low to use words hey I'm feeling sad today. So I'm like just send me any emoji I'll know that you're feeling something and I'll reach out to you. >> So it's a great tool by the way. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> I came up with that one myself. But she did. I I happened to be out with him again and she sends me this emoji and she's like, you know, I'm I'm not feeling great today. And I was like, okay, well, straight away I'm going to drop everything. I'll be with you. I'm going to come over. And it was a Friday. It was the middle of the day. And so I did. I said, "I have to go. I'm going to go to my sisters." I went I got to my sister's house. And when I got outside, I noticed my other sister. I have two older sisters. I noticed my other older sister's husband's car outside on a Friday >> afternoon. >> Afternoon. So I was like, why would his car be outside? So I've gone in. >> Were you with this guy at the time? Did you drop? >> I went solo. I went solo. >> She kind of said I need you to come by. She w she basically set it up so that I come by myself. >> Got it. >> And obviously I wouldn't take someone cuz if she's feeling a certain type of way. So yeah, I'm I'm wondering why is his car there. I've got I've gone to the door and she as I walk in she's kind of got this like odd you know when someone's got like a nervous smile. >> Yeah. >> So I'm like, "Hey, are you okay?" Like really worried about her and she's like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Are you okay?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm fine." So, and as I'm like coming into her house, like to turn into her living room, I noticed my other brother-in-law sat in there. So, I was like, "What are you doing here? >> What are you doing there? Like, what's going on?" But we were we were about to have a whole intervention. So, I've come in and they're like, "Are you okay? Just sit down." Who's there? It's my sister and my other sister's husband. Not her. Not Not your other sister. >> No. Okay. So, it's just these two. >> All right. Okay. from what I can remember. >> Okay. It's three of you. >> Yes. And they're like, "Oh, aren't you sit down?" And I'm like, "What's going on?" So now I'm I'm literally like, "Someone better tell me what's going on right now. I've got my like literally bossy boots on." I'm like, "Tell me." And they're like, "Aren't you, did you give this guy any money?" That was the question. And I just nodded and they were like, "Okay." Um, and they were like, "Aren't you? He's a fraud." >> Oh god, I wash. >> So I just Yeah. I I lost for words. Absolutely lost for words. And I'm like, "What do you mean?" And I instantly believed them. They were worried that I'm like going to be so heartbroken. I'm upset that this guy's broken my heart. And I'm like, I don't give a about heartbreak right now. I care about the fraud. Like, what what you need to tell me what's going on. I just I don't understand. Um, and basically what had happened was someone else that he had also frauded at that time happened to know, my brother-in-law, um, he he'd been like telling lots of people, I'm seeing this influencer girl. I'm seeing this influencer girl. Obviously, it makes him look good as a knock, you know. Um, I didn't I didn't know that he was doing that. So, this guy has put two and two together that it's me. Reached out to my brother-in-law and said, "You need to get your sister away from her, away from him. You need to get your sister away from him." And he's gone and met up with him and he's given him all of these receipts. There's a whole WhatsApp group of people that he's frauded. There's like I think >> I want to say just under 30 people >> Oh my god. >> that he's taken Yeah. he's taken money from. So this is like his ex-girlfriend, their family, um his own friends, family me, like anyone that he could build a relationship with. And that's the thing, he he was one of those people that >> was quite Yeah. quite likable. um instantly. So yeah, this this whole thing and they had um they had all these excuses in the WhatsApp group of that he everything that he's been saying to me was all in the WhatsApp group of all the reasons why he can't give the money back. And this has been going on for so long and at that point it was like 1.2 million worth of money that he defrauded from people. Yeah. >> 1.2 million. Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You're joking. >> No. >> In In what space of time? >> I want to say I don't know the space of time to be honest. I don't know the space of time. I don't know. >> Okay. Oh my god. So they're telling you this. Are you like having a breakdown happening from him? >> Yeah. I literally was not okay. My world came crashing down that day. I was so upset because this is where depression hit me. And depression hit me is it wasn't because of the money or whatever. It was because I thought how can I do this to myself how how I just couldn't understand how I'm not a stupid girl. I'm a smart girl and how can someone do that to me and how can I allow someone to take advantage of me? And I I had all these questions and I understand now after, you know, the process that obviously this person was so good at what they do because they didn't just do it to me who all these people. >> Yeah. And I'm emotionally invested. But what about these people that aren't, you know, wanting to be in a relationship with him? What about these grown men that he's done this to? Businessmen, all types of people. So it's not that just that he played on like a woman's vulnerability or you know relationships in that sense. It was he was doing it to to grown men also. So that kind of gave me a little bit of comfort and peace that like okay I'm not stupid here. >> You're not. >> Yeah. And that's why I said at the beginning of this podcast, you can never blame the victim. >> No. >> Because there is someone who spends their day and night coming up with a plan and it's so conniving. Yeah. >> On how to manipulate them. I'm like so confused. I find it really bizarre when people blame the victim. I just find it crazy. >> Yeah, I agree. I agree. Um >> so yeah, everything basically came crashing down from that point. I basically had to try and put a plan together on how I was going to get this money back. >> So talk talk me through it cuz I I think this this is like good advice by the way if you're like going through the situation. The problem with me, by the way, this is the issue with me. All right, I'm going to tell you all something about me. If that happened to me, I would pick up the phone and I'd be like, not going to say beep beep beep beep beep beep beep. Yeah. Now, that's not the way. >> No, that's not the way. >> To outsmart a narc. What did you do? >> I outsmarted him. >> I knew it. >> So, what did I do? Well, I sat with my I sat with my siblings the entire weekend plotting plotting and planning. >> Did he message me you be like, "How's your sister?" And you're like, "Oh, he wanted me to go and he was playing this sport. I'm not going to say which sport because >> Yeah. >> but he was playing the sport. He wanted me to go see him play that sport that weekend and I, you know, I didn't go. Oh, why didn't you come? And I I told everyone that you were going to be coming to the club and d of course you were going to tell everyone that I'm coming cuz it makes you look good. But oh, I'm so sorry I can't come. I've got a problem with my roof. La. Really? I'm sat there crying my eyes out. My poor little nieces running around cuz where where are they meant to go? But they could just see. I was in bits. And if anyone smiled and showed teeth that day, I was like, "Put your teeth away." Like seriously, these poor kids. >> But I literally could not be around joy. >> Yeah. >> Happiness. >> Really? >> I just needed I was just in a deep deep hole. It was like someone died. It was genuinely like someone died that we were all just sat there. >> Well, it is kind of cuz you had this person that you thought was like your boyfriend who was like the love of your life. You're going to marry and then they died cuz they weren't real. >> It wasn't that grief. The grief wasn't him. The grief was that I have it. The grief was me. I wasn't me. Like I've literally someone's broken me. And it was the sadness of you've worked so hard so so so hard for all of this. And someone's just literally robbed you. Robbed you not only of your financials but of of you. That's that was the part that that we were grieving. We weren't grooving him. We couldn't give a about him. I couldn't give a about him. >> Sorry. Am I allowed to sir? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thanks. >> I got like tingles cuz I just feel so I just can't imagine how many women go through that. And you're so right. It's like you blame yourself. >> Yeah. >> And you're grieving like this old you. And like I just I I feel like I'm in a similar situation with you in the sense that like I'm a creator and it's so hard. Yeah. To make money in this industry. People think it's really easy by the way. >> It's not easy. >> And it it some things can come easily to you. Like there are some things that come and I'm like wow that I was so lucky and that happens but like every month is like up and down up and down and you have to graft every single month and the second you slow down you're out. >> Yeah. Literally. >> And unfortunately it is like that. And people will say, "No, you no it's not." But it is. It is. >> And I can imagine for you, like you would work so hard. I remember seeing your billboard for your book. And I honestly remember being like, "That is actually sick." I've told you this before. I was so jealous of your book title. Like what would the auntie say? I was like, "Wow, bloody iconic." I think it's amazing. The cover. I still to this day think it's fabulous. >> Thank you. And I the reason I'm saying this is I think it's you you would have been so proud cuz like me as somebody who didn't know you were so proud >> and like to work that hard in this really difficult industry to make this much amount of money and then for someone to just take it away from you >> and it was your choice to give it. >> Yeah, >> that's the hard part. And I think that is like so important to mention because people just like I like I said at the start is like people will just be like so critical of that. But for you to share how hard that was for you to grieve and for you to accept that, >> I think it's just like it it's it's so difficult. It's so so so difficult. I can't imagine it. And it was grieving just I just couldn't understand me at that point. I couldn't understand who >> how like who I was, how I got there. >> Yeah. >> Like >> knowing Yeah. How did this happen? Knowing I'm not a stupid girl. like knowing that and I'm just like how has someone >> robbed me of like just my my sparkle, my everything, my literally they've robbed me. So that was the thing that we were grieving and that was truly like heartbreaking. But I basically had to continue to speak to him. >> Right. Of course, as normal cuz you're plotting against him. >> Yes. And I had to continue to speak to him in order >> to get my money back because >> that was the only way. He obviously wants me in his life. >> Yes. So, um, what did you do? How did you get the money back? >> So interested for this heist. >> Also, I love how we're having such a serious conversation and like still joking about it. We're friends, by the way. Just to let you know, I'm not being disensitive >> to a guest. >> Yeah. um we planned to that I would need to continue speaking to him in order for me to get the money back and obviously I would I would have to um he didn't know that I knew and we had like another date night coming up that weekend um and we were going to watch this film with Will Smith and it's so interesting because Will Smith in the movie talks about like trying to get a million pounds and this guy starts crying in the cinema next to me and I'm thinking you're crying because you owe1.2 million pounds worth of money to people. Not you're not crying because like oh what a lovely story. He was actually crying >> crying like real tears like real tears like sobbing and I'm like like you actually make me sick. You make me sick >> when you knew. >> Mhm. >> And he didn't know that you knew. >> Yeah. >> How did you like play this facade? cuz I think there's a lot of people that are probably wanting to call someone out for something, you know, like if you found out that someone's cheated on you >> or you found out that someone's been gossiping about you or you found out that someone is like manipulating you or backstabbing you. >> I'm very reactive. Like I would just say it straight to someone's face. >> I am as well. >> That's not a good thing. Yeah. How did you have the courage to >> keep it civil with him? Play happy families, I guess. And how did you feel about that? Like talk to me about your emotions cuz that must have been really hard to be with him and to pretend everything's fine and then to go home and be like, "Oh my god." >> Yeah. I believe And sorry, just another question. Did you ever doubt the story? Did you ever think like maybe he's not doing it to me? >> Yeah. So eventually later down the line I I did think like, "Wait, are people making this up? like he's he he's so upset. He's so upset and like maybe he's got a side of the story that like is true and uh you know he's feeling so sad and stressed and this this this. I almost wanted to believe a part of that too, >> right? >> But that was later but >> initially I am a reactive person too. maybe not so much anymore um through growth, but at that time I would say that I was a reactive person and I had to really just play the long game. There's there was so much more. I can't just >> fly off the handle. Like I need to get back everything I've worked for. >> Yeah. Um, and it was it was really difficult and really challenging. And my siblings were all just with me in support on message kind of like we can't sleep at night. Are you okay? Um, just yeah, just being my support. I had a very very strong support system. I will say I wasn't alone in that sense, which is how I was able to get through it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. We're going to talk about the support system after cuz I want to know how you told your dad. >> Yeah. >> Talk to me about when you confronted him. >> So, I confronted him with my brother-in-law who had initially found out. So, I wasn't alone. And he did, you know, play the same sob story to my brother-in-law. Um, all the lies. No, this is real. No, duh. All the stories. >> Why did you decide to confront him? >> Why? because I felt like he needed pressure to >> to give you the money back. He wasn't giving you the money back. >> No, he could easily if he could easily just give all these excuses and continue to do so for so long. So, I felt like there needed to be some pressure and also he needed to know that he's going to lose me. >> Yeah. >> And Yeah. So, that's that's why I confronted him with my my family with me. And after that, he did start to send me the money, but in dribbs and drabs, what? You know, not in one go, cuz he's obviously still having to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. Like that sort of thing. So, he's still trying to manipulate someone to get the money from somewhere. >> Otherwise, if you had the money, you would just send it after you confronted him. >> Yeah. >> What happened? Was he still contacting you? Were you still in contact with him? Was this the point where he started paying you that you thought maybe I was wrong about him? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, because so we made it very clear for him to not communicate with me. >> Okay. Just he has to send me the money, but like there is no more that that's it. No more communication. But he had the cheek and also did not respect anything that anyone had to say. my family um and continued to try to communicate with me. You don't understand my side of the story, blah blah blah. Again, trying to guilt trip me and trying to make him make me h like feel for him in his position. And a part of me did at some points. A part of me, I was so lost and confused and stressed that I just didn't know what was right anymore. >> Yeah. because I've clearly just got something so wrong that I don't know what's right anymore. I don't know anything. >> At this point though, why people will say, "Why didn't you just block him?" >> Uh, he was trying to contact me through all forms of communication, email, um, no caller ID, like >> everything. >> Yeah. Everything. And also, while I was still waiting to get my money back, >> you had to keep that form of communication. >> There needed to be some line there. M. >> So, there was that. Um, and then, yeah, then his sort of obsessive behavior, I would say, like really picked up because he's trying to uh communicate with me a lot more. I'm not communicating in the same way because I'm like, I just obviously get away from me and send me my money and then maybe there's a conversation to have, >> but without that, I I can't talk to you because I just can't make sense of things. Um, so I get most of it back and he then would uh he turned up to my house one one night. It was late. I felt scared. >> And you were living alone? >> I was living alone. So I did contact the police and I had to basically give them a backstory and I explained to them about the fraud. Now, I believe I'm pretty sure that I'm the first person out of all the people that he'd done this to to actually inform the police of this. And I think so, I haven't actually spoken to all of these people because I don't know them. >> Yeah. >> And I guess I've just been trying to protect myself and my peace and focus on my own healing journey this entire time. But I'm pretty sure from what I know that they didn't inform the police because all of these people have some form of longerterm relationship with him. And I think that they thought that if we tell the police then we won't get our money back. So maybe if we, you know, we we keep up this nice communication with him or maybe there's a level what they that's what they want you to do though, isn't it? It's like don't tell the police and I'll give it back to you. >> Right. And like maybe they have a level of trust with this with him. >> So they have their own reasoning. But at this point, I'm ready to cut all ties. I need you out of my life. I don't care what happens. So I'm happy to tell the police. Um you know, you were in my life for such a short amount of time. So I told the police and yeah, I wasn't I I I basically just wanted him out of my life. I did um continue to have some form of conversation with him at this point because he was trying to explain his side of the story and at this point I started to get a bit confused because it's like now I've got my money back. >> Right. And you had got 98% of it back. >> Yeah. Exactly. So I've got my money back and he's still like trying to make this effort and Yeah. It just I was in I was also in a very dark place. A very very dark place. I was just not okay. I couldn't make sense of anything. I still it this was only 2 months after. So I'm completely lost. And then I'm like, "No, I can't I can't communicate with him." So this is when the stalking and the harassment started. And he he not only would follow me in person in the car, he would call me nonstop nonstop off no call or ID when I tell you my phone would not stop ringing. Like I would feel triggered if my phone vibrated. My job is on my phone. I need to be on my phone a lot and I need to see certain notifications, whatever. I literally just had to like completely do not disturb, but then I'm like missing things or I'm just not with it. I'm not with it. I'd be at events. I'd be at a breakfast meeting or something and my phone is vibrating nonstop. Non-stop. It was just like so anxietyinducing that every time my phone rings, it's just so stressful. Um, >> did you think about changing your number? >> I did. I did. And I was told um you know I have a really supportive man management team also and they were like change your number change your number. I just did not want to have to do that. I get that. I just thought why should I have to keep hiding? Like I'm already on eggshells. I'm leaving the house and I'm scared and this is just no. Like I don't want to have to do so much. And I just think, well, what if I change my number and then he finds that number? >> And >> it wasn't just the numbers. It was email accounts. And when I tell you the email accounts, there were so many. It would be like email accounts, Instagram accounts, fake Instagram accounts, just anything. And it would be like, for example, I don't know, I'm going to make this up on the spot, like I've worn red shoes. Yeah. It would be aren't wears red shoes@gmail.com. Literally like any the most random email accounts. Aren't yours secrets? What secrets? >> Your name would be the email account. >> Yeah, it would be my name but with like something else. >> There was this one was wild to me. There's a uh private number plate on my road. Someone else never I've never met this person. I don't know who owns that car. I don't know who that person is. But it it clearly is kind of it gives off like a young Asian male from Yeah. from from the number plate. In fact, it's not even on my road. He's off my road. >> So he I and I don't know what house >> because the car's always parked at somewhere different. So I don't know this person at all. And um then one of the email accounts was my name and their number plate, which was their number plate is their namegmail.com. and then signing off the email from that person. >> Oh gosh. >> Um what was he saying to you in the email? >> Threatening me. Um lot come like threatening to this is the thing like talking about sharing things about me but he didn't have anything to share of me. >> But still when someone says that you start thinking like oh my god what are you going to say >> turning up to my doorstep that threatening to kill themselves on my doorstep on my Ring doorbell um saying that I'm at the local park. I'm about to kill myself. All of these things. So each time I would have to call the police because I'm thinking if someone's about to kill themselves on my doorstep. And this is the thing, like when you're not in it, you're like, well, this person's calling your bluff. Like just ignore it. It's fine. No rubbish. >> But imagine when you're in that situation and also you live by yourself. No, >> just imagine someone turns up and they do kill themselves on your doorstep. Then how would like and and I haven't done anything. I haven't warned anyone. Like that's not okay. Um so I would have to call the police every single time. I would call call the police to go and check if he's in the local park. And do you know what was so difficult is that unless he was actually going to turn up and kill me, they wouldn't want to show up. This is the thing about the system that unless you are literally under some form of serious threat, they're not going to they're not they're not going to come. But I had to explain to them that I am scared. I am living by myself and I don't know what he's going to do. I don't know if he's going to show up. And do you want me to go outside and check? >> Oh my god. >> Or or do you want to do that? >> Did you tell your parents at the time? Um, I told my mom and then I told my dad later down the line. >> Not when you were being threatened. >> No. >> Why? >> He would worry about me. >> Why didn't you go and live with them for a bit? >> So then I did cuz I was started to renovate my house and I think I told my dad then. as someone who's moved out and I remember we spoke about this on my podcast at the time you came >> and I I think I think actually when you came on I think you'd already moved out because if you were in the thick of it you'd already moved out >> but I was saying how I desperately wanted to move out I think or you just moved back home I can't remember you were in some kind of transition I can't remember renovating >> yeah so either you had moved out or you hadn't I can't remember >> but you definitely bought your house >> yes >> and I remember saying to you like what an achievement right as like an Indian brown girl moving out the house cuz it's not a normal thing. It's not common. >> It's not >> to do it. And then I guess you know for someone to put you through this and then for you to think well now I have to move back home. That is just again it's like why should you have to you know I get it like cuz look the reason I'm asking you these questions cuz I know there's going to be people at home be like well why don't you just move home then if you were so scared and that's why people thinking >> correct but >> there's so much there's so many layers to this as well. you know, you just for this >> and you felt so proud and >> Yeah. And I'm like, I don't want to have to let >> this person now take over the rest of my life. >> Yeah. Exactly. And also just me reminding myself I am strong. >> I'm strong. I am capable and no one should have to push me out of >> your home, >> my home. >> So that's kind of why I stayed there and I got through it. >> And how did the stalking stop? Like at what point did he stop this harassment? So eventually, so basically the police would arrest him. They would keep him, they're only allowed to keep him for up to 24 hours and then they would release him on bail. He would break his bail immediately. Like let's say they've released him at 2:00 a.m. My phone is ringing at 2:15. And so then I'm And >> why didn't you block him at this point of >> his no caller ID? I I had blocked him on everything. >> So but obviously I can't help all these fake accounts and email accounts. these no caller IDs, there's multiple phone numbers. Like I I can't >> Yeah. Of course. You can't block everything out. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I started to also get so paranoid even if like the police are calling me off no call or ID, I would have to miss the call because I'm just so paranoid that I just don't want to take a chance on me answering any of these. Um so they would always just send me a text to say that was me or you know here's my personal phone number or something. >> But yeah, this kept happening. It was like this cycle of them arresting him for 24 hours and me thinking, "Right, I'll have 24 hours of peace. Okay, I'll sleep tonight." And then same same different day, basically. But if he broke his bail, why was Nean arrested? >> It's not serious enough. It's It's not serious enough. And this is what I was trying to understand. And I was losing my absolute mind. And what was also really challenging is that and obviously they can't help this. So I'm not blaming the police, but they they've got different people on different shifts. So I'm calling at 4 4 in the morning, losing my mind again over something that keeps happening and I'm having to reexplain >> the whole story every single time I have new officers in my house. And I will say obviously they were all so kind and understanding and supportive but it was still challenging. >> Yeah. Of course >> it couldn't be just me against him anymore. The the court had to basically want to >> intervene. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So it had to be taken up a notch because he's broken his bell so many times. >> Got it. Um, and then eventually I went to court and even in court I'd asked for a screen cuz I didn't want to see him and I didn't want him to see me. >> Right. >> And that was that. Yeah. That morning I went and I went with both my parents and when I got there they said that he's pleaded guilty to all the evidence that I had of him physically stalking me. So him his car showing up to my house or following me or certain things that I had physical evidence he was pleading guilty to. But he was pleading not guilty now to all of the things that you can't prove like the >> caller ID. >> No caller ID, the emails, um the Instagram accounts, all of that. And so they kind of gave me a choice whether I want to just call it a day there and we go off what he is pleading guilty for or I go and speak in court and I prove that he's guilty for everything. And I was like I can prove it. I'm speaking in court like 1 million% I can prove that he that's him. So that's what I did. Um >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. So, I had to and I was able to prove it through obviously the motive, his use of language, um certain emojis. I feel scared actually a little bit now, like saying all of this because I'm sure at some point he'll see this >> and maybe if he chooses to come and stalk me again, >> um he would change his tactics based on everything that I've spotted, you know? So, it does scare me a little bit. It does. Um, but this is the truth. This is what happened. >> And I think it also helps other people realize how to spot things, but also I do think there's always patterns with people's behaviors. >> And like there will always be a pattern. Yeah. >> You know what I mean? So, I I completely understand your fear right now of saying I'm I'm explicitly saying all the things that he's done, but there'll always be a pattern with him that will always be able to spot even if it's not through emojis or whatever. >> Yeah. Exactly. So I was able to do that. But even it was so interesting even in court when his lawyer was it got to his lawyer questioning me. He was like knocking on the glass to disturb the the questions and then to get her to go inside the box that he was in to manipulate how she worded the questions to me. So he wouldn't even allow her to do his her job. And that happened about three times to the point that even his lawyers like I, you know, a lawyer's gonna come prepared with their questions and they know how to they know what they're doing. But he was also trying to manipulate her >> in his favor, which I thought was wild. >> Absolutely wild. So >> from that point, um, yeah, he was found guilty. Um, he didn't go to prison at that point. Why? I think because he didn't actually physically put his hands on me to kill me, which I find insane. >> So sad. >> Yeah. And I believe in that year, so that was 2022, 1.4% of stalkers were con actually convicted. >> 1.4%. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> So there are so many that are change if you're thinking of stalking either one or anyone else, by the way. Just FYI. >> Yeah. You're not going to get away with that. >> You're not. >> So, >> that's so sad. >> I had an injunction, a restraining order. Um, >> so what do they do if they're found guilty? >> He just wasn't allowed to communicate. No contact. That's it. >> And what happens if he does? >> Then I I guess it would go to Yeah. Or it would go to court again. But he didn't contact me. And then from that point it was all the his his fraud case had now opened up because after I'd shared I believe everyone else >> then shared >> then shared and it became this whole thing and because there were so many people involved so many accounts that they have to go through so many stories that they need to align and obviously it was a huge fraud case now at this point and I was then on my healing journey but he only went to prison for fraud at the start of this year. So, January 2025. >> Wow. >> Is when I felt free. 3 years on. >> My gosh. >> That I'm like, okay. And I've obviously done so much work and healing throughout this year that I'm now able to talk and share, but the journey's been difficult because I've still had to do my job online. That's one thing that I actually really want to talk to you about because whilst this was all going on, you know, like you said, you make your money through being online. So do I. >> Yeah. >> When someone hurts you, what people don't understand about being a creative is that a lot of the time the ideas that we come up with come from a place where we are in a good space, you know, have a good mindset where we feel free to think, you know, to think of a new idea. You know, people always ask me, how do you think of your ideas? And I always said I go for a walk or you know I spend a lot of time alone because if I don't do that I can't think. >> Yeah. You need to feel inspired. >> How did you continue with your work while this was all going on or did you not? >> There were moments that I didn't and it was really on and off and it was really really challenging and there were days that I would be like okay I think I'm okay to film today. I think I'm okay to go on camera. I might have been crying that morning or but then, you know, I I had this moment of like, "No, you can do it." >> Yeah. >> And so I would get on camera, I'd film my makeup video or whatever, >> but then I would get comments from my followers saying like, "Aren't you look really dead behind the eyes, you look, you know, you like you don't look like right, like there's something's off about you." Duh. And I just obviously don't want to share. And I kind of had been sharing a little bit about mental health. I was sharing a little bit about like not being in the best place, but obviously I was not in the space to be sharing what I'm going through. Um, so trying to work was really challenging. It was really on and off. And I would say that it's actually played such a negative effect like to this day because I wasn't able to be consistent. >> And like you said in this industry >> if you don't keep up like you're gone like it's really hard. You have to stay >> it's really hard >> extremely consistent and I haven't been. I haven't been. So it's actually really hindered me. >> Yeah. because of this person and because of this trauma, but at the same time, I've had to give this trauma the time and and I've had to give myself Yeah. some of that time also. >> Um, I mean, I think >> that is so powerful to share because it's, you know, everyone always knows, you know, you don't know what's going on in someone's life. But one thing that people don't talk about, right, is >> you can look so great and happy online, but remember it's like a 2-minute tutorial you're seeing. Literally, >> I remember and I've never shared this online and I I don't know when I'll be ready to talk about it, but I was going Oh god, I'm going to get emotional. Jesus. >> I remember I was going through this really difficult period in my life. Really, really difficult. Absolutely nobody knew. No one knew >> apart from my family. >> And I could not share it online. And I remember I had to go and give a talk and I was paid to go and give this talk. And I did not get out of bed for 2 days. I did not get out of my bed for 2 days. And no one would think that of me because I was still posting, >> right? >> Because with this podcast, I can keep posting clips. Yeah. >> I can post I'm having a coffee and do a question box and I can post that I'm pretending that I'm somewhere that I'm not because I have to keep the stories going >> cuz otherwise I'm not going to get engagement on my account and you know people might think that that's so stupid. But you know I have to pay the bills. >> Yeah. >> I quit my job >> so I have to keep it going. >> Yeah. >> And I remember I had to go and give this talk and I did not get out of bed for these two days. And I remember thinking, I can't do it. And I remember calling Nick and I was like, I can't do it. And then I remember being like, oh, I remember it so well. I had a workshop. I used to do these workshops on Sunday mornings >> and I had to do it cuz people are paid to come to these workshops. >> And I remember I did it and I got up and I did it. And I remember being like, I'm not going to let this person win. >> No, >> I'm not going to let that person win. They want me to suffer. Yeah, >> they want to put me down >> and I'm just not going to allow it. >> And it's such a difficult thing to do >> but when you in that workshop I help someone >> I remember I was like I can go give the talk now. >> Yeah. >> And I gave the talk and I was like when you come back you can cry your eyes out again but I went to go give the talk and when I came back I was like you did it. And I will always remember that memory in my brain of like when you think you can't do something you can. And you should never let the other person who's trying to bring you down >> actually bring you down >> cuz you do have control over it. >> They want to make you feel like you don't. But you do. >> Yeah. >> But it is so challenging. So I can't imagine, you know, when you're going through a period where someone is like stalking you the outside of your house. They're calling you constantly. Like you said, your your life is on your phone. >> My life and also like my life is online. So I had to change how I do things massively. like >> I and and this is another reason why I sort of retreated and stopped posting so much or sharing things before I would just um just even if I'm at home I'm like oh yeah I don't mind sharing not my home but I'm sharing myself you see this in the background fine >> I didn't want I I just felt exposed I stopped talking to camera I stopped doing YouTube because I felt like I was sat there naked >> I get it >> it felt like you him are seeing too much of me. >> Yeah. >> And I feel just exposed. I feel disgusting. I don't want you to see any part of me. I don't want you to see that I'm talking. And sometimes when at the beginning as well when I was trying to like get on with things and obviously for my job, I have to post certain things and I'm like, "Hey, so yeah, this eyeliner la, which I do love." Um, I'd get an email being, "Look at you. You look happy. Look, you know, I was going to ask you about that." >> Yeah. immediate like sort of fine. >> Yeah, look at you. You're fine while I'm here and you've done this to me, la. And it's like, >> no, you did this to you and you did you did this to me. Like, so I I kind of felt like I couldn't talk online anymore. I couldn't share online anymore. If I was at events, I didn't want to share. And to this day, I do things differently where, and I think everyone should, to be fair, and safely, >> don't post when you're actually somewhere. >> I never post on real time. Mine's always like 2 days late and that's why people always like, "Huh, are you there now?" I've been not there. Sorry, that was like 5 days ago. >> I'm gone. Yeah, I'm out of there. But yeah, it just I had to I I just couldn't even share just general I just didn't want to talk. I couldn't talk. I couldn't I just felt like I was naked, too exposed. >> Yeah. >> Just even hearing me talk about makeup. It's like you're hearing me. That's part of me. I can't believe that people said that you look deadeyed. That's so sad to me because I feel that well I've lost the spark. >> Yeah. And what's sad though is that I think it must be so difficult when people are saying that to you and then you're thinking oh my god now I'm doing badly in my work. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then you're blaming yourself again. >> Yeah. And you're like how do I hide this? You know I'm I'm really trying. I thought I was okay today. I thought I looked okay. I thought I felt okay today. >> Yeah. And now I don't. >> Yeah. So now maybe I'm not going to be okay. >> Yeah. So you're secondguessing yourself and you're like, you know, I Yeah. And at this point where you just don't know yourself anymore. You're completely lost. It Yeah, it was very challenging. You talk so much around shame and, you know, feeling embarrassed to tell your siblings, but also, you know, feeling like you couldn't tell anyone. At what point did you tell your dad? I told my dad I think when I had to move in to live with him because when I was getting my house renovated because I was being stalked at that time and I felt like he needed to know and I'd got through I don't want to say I wouldn't say I'd got through the worst of it but I'd got my money back at that point so I could >> tell him >> tell him look this is what's happened we've resolved the situation Okay, we're back on track. >> What you're worried about? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. >> Forget about the like, did you get the money? >> No, he was so concerned. >> No, I get it. No, I get it. I'm just joking. Just joking. I'm just joking. >> No, I know. No, we can joke. He'll be like He's sensitive. So, >> yeah. My dad would be like that, but I know that he'd be like, "Where's the money? >> Where's the money?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, 100%. That's the first thing I needed to tell him. >> Yeah, I get it. I would feel comfortable at that point to say because I would feel that >> he would be most upset, not most upset, but he would be so upset about that for me because he's also seen me work so hard for it. >> Right. Exactly. >> I get it. Exactly. So, it was at that point that I was able to tell him and I I want to say I my dad I don't know I I thought that I would get a different reaction. I don't know but he was so supportive. In fact, >> my mom is my best friend. So I I know that she's Yeah. I can tell her everything. But and but my dad had just he just showed me that I can come to him >> for anything. Yeah. Exactly. And but the entire time my si my siblings were like a major support system for me. Like my my brother and my sister-in-law would just turn up to my house on the weekend with like pancake ingredients and just make me breakfast because I just obviously couldn't couldn't do anything. I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't >> feed myself. was just ordering shitty food and I love to cook and I'm a really good cook. So, both my sisters, both my brother-in-laws, like everyone, everyone was just there. They were just there through it with me. Were you going to therapy at this time? Um, I started a form of talking therapy at that time and but I was like in the middle of being stalked at that time and I want to say that maybe it was that type of therapist. I don't know but she just couldn't understand like the level of fear I had at that point or she just it just it wasn't it wasn't clicking. So, I wasn't having a great experience with therapy. And the only time I've I've had like therapy over the years, talking therapy, CBT, um, different types, but it was only at the start of this year when I found out he's going to prison or yeah, he'd gone to prison that I found a trauma specialist cuz I was like, "This is holding on to me for dear life. Go away. Go get off me." Like seriously, because my body is holding on to so much trauma. So much trauma in ways that I just I can't even explain. >> Give me some examples though of like how your body is holding on to trauma and perhaps you're not recognizing it. So if someone at home has been through a situation, maybe not as extreme as this, but something a little bit similar or, you know, even heartbreak and they just think, well, heartbreak's normal and I don't need to go and see a trauma specialist or I've got trauma in me. What are some of the signs that someone has trauma that are kind of invisible? >> Okay, so one of the big things for me is that I started going to the gym because I thought, right, let you know, let me work on my mind. It wasn't for my body at all. >> Even though now um it was more so for my mind and to to get out the house. Um most people when they go to the gym, they've done a workout or forget the gym. You do a workout at home, you release happy hormones, correct? Endorphins. Yes, correct. >> Yeah, you release happy hormones. For me, what was coming up was anxiety, sadness, deep deep sadness. Like just I would get to the end of my workout and I want to cry my eyes out. And so this was not enjoyable. This is not like, oh yeah, let let me go to the gym and feel good. I'm I know I'm going to the gym and every day I'm going to the gym. I'm in fear that like am I going to feel that that feeling again? Like am I going to get to the end of my workout and I'm going to be crying on the treadmill cuz I would normally like end my workout with walking on the treadmill and I would be having to like look down while I've got like tears streaming down my face cuz obviously I don't want anyone to see me crying. And it just felt so heavy. It's just sitting in my body. And so obviously when I'm trying to work out these feelings are still coming to the surface. Um, and I'm feeling major anxiety. Major anxiety, sadness. Yeah, th that's what I would feel after a workout. And only this year, since I've gone to a trauma specialist and I've done a different type of therapy called EMDR, um, that I don't feel that way anymore. And so, I can really see the difference. Not only one am I sat here talking about my experience of my trauma, >> Wow. But I also I can see that my body's let go because I can go to the gym and just feel like a normal person and feel like, "Oh, that was a good workout." >> So, from doing EMDR, would you say that is what it is? >> That is what it is. >> And what do you do in EMDR? >> So, it's really interesting. So, it's either this sort of tapping motion. >> Yeah. Try tapping. >> Yeah. or like you follow your therapist's finger, but you basically have to think of like the worst memory and you have to do it like either per event. So maybe you've had a traumatic event, so you would do it on that traumatic event. For me, it's the person. I couldn't even say this person's name for the last 3 years because I just couldn't say the name. >> Yeah. Now I can and I just choose not to, of course. Um, but my body again that was another form of holding on to trauma and fear because I just couldn't say the name. >> Um, so yeah, you you think of like the worst one one of the worst memories and >> you have to tap for a certain amount of seconds and then you say like the first thing that comes to your mind and you keep doing this over and over and however many sessions until nothing comes up. And basically what this is doing is it's opening up both sides of your brain >> um your neurological pathways, >> right? >> And yeah, it's just releasing the trauma, I guess. And honestly, when my when my therapist said like this is the quickest way to get over trauma, I almost didn't believe her and I thought this sounds a bit like hippie-ish and yeah, woo woo. I'm like, "Okay, how can this be quick? Like, this is deep trauma. How can this be quick?" >> It worked so well. >> But it worked and like genuinely changed my life. Genuinely changed my life. >> What other things did you do to heal that maybe someone at home who doesn't have access to EMDR can do? >> Um, I did journaling. I obviously went to the gym because I think regardless of those feelings of sadness and whatever, I was still going to continue to push through um because I knew that it's a way of mentally making yourself strong. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, doing something for yourself, going for a walk. >> Yeah. >> Reflecting. um surrounding yourself with people that understand you. >> Yeah. >> And can support you and are not going to make you feel silly or stupid. >> You know, I also had one of my best friends be a huge support for me at that time that I could, you know, share the same conversation with over and over and over and over and over. >> Oh my god. I've just remembered something. Do you remember when I was at the Grove and I was with Nikl? >> Yes. And you were sat next to me. >> Yes. With her. >> And I could see how awkward you were when you realized I came and sat next to you because basically just to give context, >> I was invited to this dinner at the Grove. And so were you, >> but the tables were so close to each other and like obviously not to be rude, but like I was on a date with Nikl and you were obviously with your friend and I could see your face and I was also like for God's sake cuz like you want to HAVE A DATE NIGHT AND LIKE YOU WANTED TO chat >> and I remember like you talking but you were talking so quietly like you you were acting conspicuous. Yeah, >> you know, you were acting his pictures and I felt so awkward cuz I was like, "Oh god, I couldn't hear what you were saying, but like I think I was going through I think I was actually having like a hard conversation with Nikl or something like that." >> So like I remember you were acting conspicuous, but like I was trying to act conspicuous and I feel that, >> you know, it's so awkward, isn't it, when you when you have those interactions with people cuz by the way, I didn't really know you that well then. >> No. >> And if I'm honest, I didn't I think I'm quite like emotionally intelligent. But I didn't think you were being rude, >> okay, >> at all, by the way. >> I hope not. >> Also, I'm pretty sure I was going through something with Niko. So, I remember I was like, "For God's sake," and I could tell you were also like, "For God's sake," which is my maybe our energy match. And I was like, "You're clearly going through something." >> Yeah. >> But my point here is is like, let's say, for example, you don't know that about a person or maybe like, you know, if I wasn't going through a difficult time, wasn't it wasn't a difficult time. Maybe I was just having a difficult conversation with Nicl, but if I wasn't planning to have this difficult conversation with Nicl, I wouldn't have had empathy for your situation. And maybe I would have thought you were rude. And this is why you also just like should never judge someone when you are seeing them for the first time cuz you have no idea. >> You don't know >> what they're going through. >> Yeah. And I agree and I always like to understand like someone's why and be like well maybe there was a reason for you know again just giving someone grace of course >> because you just don't know. They could have just had a really day. >> Correct. >> Like it doesn't even have to be anything major. It just could be a bad day. >> But yeah, no, I remember that. I remember that. And it's so I was off. I was off cuz I was having a awful day. I >> was just going with you with your friend. I'm like, "Oh my god, I remember that." Cuz I remember you being so visibly stressed. I do actually remember. >> I was trying to catch up with her and like >> here I am sitting next to you like, "Yeah, you're all right." >> Yeah. And I was like, "Hey girl." >> No, I get it. I think it's like a Now she's going to hear this conversation. I didn't hear anything. Okay, good. I didn't hear yours either. >> >> But this is the thing. I think we've all got our own things going on and you sometimes just >> you never know what someone else is struggling through and you can make an assumption about them, but they can also make an assumption about you and then you just maybe could just ruin a connection there with someone based off that. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to ask you a really hard question now because I do think that a lot of people who have been through a difficult situation where they've been betrayed or they've been lied to will feel that they can never move on. And a lot of people will say, "You don't understand. My heart was broken, so I'm never going to find love again. You don't understand. I've never trusted and loved someone this much, and I'm never going to trust somebody again." How does somebody who's been betrayed learn to heal and learn to love and trust someone again? >> Um, I think it's more about knowing what you deserve. So if you put in the love to yourself and you know yourself then you wouldn't you wouldn't face the world being like I'm not going to do this again because you know that you deserve to be loved and you know that there are beautiful people out there. Like I even though I've had I would say I've had my heart broken in many ways not just through romantic relationships. I've had my heart broken through family relationships and I feel like I've been betrayed in those situations as well. Um, and I haven't always had a great example of men. >> So, I could easily I am literally a perfect example of someone that should be like men are trash, which I never ever ever say. I never say men are trash because I take the few good ones, the few good ones that I have in my life and they give me hope. They give me hope and they show me that there are great people out there. And why would I not why why wouldn't I be able to meet someone like that? because I am also now that I've worked on myself and I have fully you know what it's so interesting cuz growing up my two older sisters would always say know your worth know your worth know your worth and I just couldn't comprehend what that meant I I I do think I've got a bit of ADHD so it takes me a few years later to actually understand what certain things mean >> um so I get things like later down the line like something will click and be like someone said that 3 years ago and I'm like it makes so much sense now. But they would always say, "Know your worth." And I ju it just never landed. I knew it meant something good. >> Yeah. >> It just didn't land. I couldn't understand the depth of what they were saying until later down the line. And through trauma, through all the work I've done on myself, through really focusing on putting love into myself that I understand what knowing my worth is. And now I know my worth. It's like I know that I deserve. >> Yes. >> To have love, have, you know, beautiful relationships, whether that's friends, family, romantic, like, yeah, we don't need to face the world with negativity, or feeling like, you know, everyone is the same cuz they're not. >> Wow. I love that. I mean that's such growth and that shows how you haven't let your past create your future. >> No, >> you know but it is difficult you know and what tips would you give to somebody who is still holding on to their past and really is so fearful because I really do also understand and empathize with people who >> I do >> feel like the second they open up a little bit they're going to be shot again. >> Yeah. And I I'm I mean I'm by no means perfect. I still find it a little bit hard to trust, especially at first because I mean, you can't also be naive once you've been through something to try and take each day as it comes because it's so easy to overthink a situation. >> Yeah. >> So easy. Um, and it's very easy to also paint everyone with the same brush. It It really is. >> But I think if you just take something in baby steps >> Yeah. take it for what what that moment is rather than what does it mean. >> Yeah. >> It might help you get further along. Um yeah, that's my advice. And I'm trying to take my own advice at the moment. So >> I love that. >> And what has this experience taught you about yourself and your own strength? >> Woo. I am resilient. I am the most resilient person that I think my entire family know. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I would say even my best friend, she always says that I am one of the most resilient people that she knows and um I think my family would say that as well. >> I love that. >> But yeah, I think it's just shown that just how strong I am and that doesn't mean that like I hate it because it's like oh look how much I can take. >> That's also I'm not wearing this as a badge of honor. I'm really not. But at the same time, I can see that I still get up and I still just I've tried to just move past it. >> And yeah, I yeah, I am strong. >> I think a lot of people think that certain women are strong because they just naturally are. But they're not. It's just because they've had to take so much and they didn't have another choice. >> And I think we've got to remember that when we look at strong women because we think, well, you're strong and I'm not and you were born strong and I wasn't. M >> but actually I just had to work through so much stuff >> that I had no choice. Do I sink or do I swim? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Am I strong or am I someone who never gets out of bed in the morning, who never tries, who never does anything because they feel as if they have to give up. >> And we have to remember that when we look at strong women and think, well, they can take it. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> What message would you give to someone who still blames himself for something like this happening? Because I do think a lot of women and men out there do blame themselves for things that have happened in their past and they hold on to that blame. You know, we can all be so horrible to ourselves and say horrible things to ourselves. What message would you give to someone who still is blaming themselves? I would say um it's important to take accountability because in any situation whether someone's done you wrong whatever you still have to take accountability for your part >> in that like for example I'm accountable for giving money in this sit in this situation yes he manipulated me >> right >> but I have to take accountability for the fact that I allowed this person in my life Yeah, I did. I did send the money. That was me. That was my choice. It's Yeah, it's about rather than just fully blaming yourself, understanding I'm accountable for this part, >> right? This is me. The rest of it isn't me. So, I'm not going to put all the blame on me. I'm not going to sit with all of this heaviness because that's not all me. M. >> So just take what is yours, >> own it, understand it, maybe get to the bottom of why why you did that, why you felt that way, why you made that choice, you know, what led you there. Get to the bottom of that and then work on that part. See maybe if you've got any um you know patterns of behavior that have come up for you. Oh, this you know I always do this when this happens. I'm attracted to this type of person because you know I had this type of past and I like this certain energy. This is where doing the work comes in and really understanding yourself. >> Yeah. >> But you don't need to take full blame for something. You have to just take accountability. I love that. I think that is so so powerful to say there's a difference between taking accountability and then for putting the entire situation on you. And we think it's really black and white, don't we? This happened so it's your fault or it's this person's fault. I mean, whenever something does happen, we love to think that there's only one person to blame and that it's not nuance and there's multiple people and there's multiple people that have impacted that situation. >> When you think about your self worth now, >> do you think you have more selfworth now than before the situation even happened? >> Oh, absolutely. And it's so interesting because at that time, like I said, I was doing so many incredible things and I was so successful in my career, but my selfworth wasn't what what it was now. So, it just it goes to show it's like >> why though? >> I I think I just was young. I was naive. I just didn't I just didn't understand. I didn't have depth, I want to say. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I wouldn't I didn't have the depth that I have now. >> Wow. >> Um Yeah, >> I love that. I really love that actually. I really love how honest and vulnerable you've been here. >> And I guess my last question is what's the best lesson you learned in therapy around self love? >> Around self love or selfworth. >> Learning to trust yourself again. Even when things have gone wrong, you may have made the right wrong choice. You may have let someone in your life. you may have done this or done that, made certain choices, but learning to trust yourself, that is um one of the biggest things I've had to >> to work on and learn and love myself for. >> Yeah. >> Well, you should be so proud. >> And thank you for sharing the story. Thank you for sharing it so openly and vulnerably and in so much detail and depth because I think you know one of the difficult things that I find online is you know people say well if you shared your story you should be open to all of this criticism and actually you know if you shared your story we should have some grace for someone who's been so brave >> to come out and want to help other people >> right cuz we could just not have this conversation and someone at home who's experienced this might never ever feel seen or heard because they might not have the support of family or access to the therapy or access to friendships >> that allow you to speak so freely, >> you know, and I really really appreciate that. So, thank you so much. >> My pleasure. Thank you for giving me the space.