Trevor Bain, welcome to Acquiring Minds. Thanks for having me. Trevor, you're an operating partner at Saturn 5. Saturn 5 is an acquirer and operator of small businesses, an SMB HoldCo, really. HoldCos are hot and a dream of many acquisition entrepreneurs. So, I'm sure my audience is as eager as I am to learn what you and your partners are up to. Before we get into that though, Trevor, how about some background on you first, please? Yeah, happy to share. I am I've been an operator of small businesses or early-stage venture uh for the last decade plus, um and then an investor as well. My background originally was not in the world of small business entrepreneurship at all. It was in uh writing and uh international development, and I kind of stumbled my way into into building companies. First, a as an agency, a small business that focused on content development, and uh and then into the venturing startup world. And ran a social commerce company, and eventually stepped into the accelerator investor world, uh worked with a social venture accelerator, and eventually got brought into the the the bigger accelerator named Techstars, and and worked there for several years investing in um 40-50 companies. And uh through that process, started to think about the kind of more broader Main Street economy, uh the opportunity within small business, the um the the big transition that was happening uh from the baby boomers boomer generation, and um some of the opportunity there, and and that's what uh kind of really sparked my journey into the SMB acquisition world, and and uh and then my journey at Saturn 5. Great. Well, I love talking to people who have been in in and around tech and have found their way to to the world of SMB. Um probably just egoistically because that's kind of been my own my own path, but I just think it's also interesting because tech is supposed to be where, you know, all these sexy appeal is, and and so if SMB is strong enough to draw people's attention away from tech, I I want to hear their story. Okay, so how did So, then your involvement with Saturn 5? What is Saturn 5? Take us from there. Yep. Saturn 5 is a family of enduringly profitable companies. We have an aspiration of working with usually legacy-minded owners, uh purchasing their companies, and then working with them to take care of their employees, and uh and take care of their customers. And we're a long-term hold model, so the the vision is to have these companies for uh the long haul, and to partner with great leaders uh to then um operate and grow those companies. So, we're about 15 uh small businesses to date, and uh the majority of them are based in the Colorado area, but uh we're focused nationally, uh especially more recently, and uh our team is based in both Colorado and Texas. So, I'm I'm in Austin, Texas. Most of our team's in in Denver. Well, and give us some of the history on Saturn 5 because it didn't start out as a operator and holder of uh of small businesses. You got it. Yeah, our original vision was more of a venture studio model. So, we we started with an aspiration to launch big, uh sort of sexy, you know, systemic change kind of world-changing ventures. And uh and the idea was, well, we'll launch these ventures and uh and kind of see them off into the world, uh but the challenge of that model is that it's it's pretty difficult to uh to fund in the short term. So, even if you've got something that really works, it's going to take a long time before you start to see meaningful return from those companies. So, uh our solution to that problem was, well, we'll go buy a cash-flowing more traditional services-based kind of boring small business, and that'll kick off cash, and that'll pay for the day-to-day operations of the venture studio, and it'll be perfect. And uh what we figured out as we got into it uh is that the these kind of boring cash-flowing you know, what was supposed to be the sort of side thing was actually really interesting. Uh there was from a risk-adjusted basis, the returns are really attractive from uh a just an opportunity perspective, there's a lot of interesting businesses that are that are you know, going to be seeking a sale just because of the generational dynamics, and there's a lot of opportunity for uh for real kind of social community impact. If you think about, you know, the the you know, the the the impact that you can have on on your employees' lives and the sort of the local community that you're tied to, there's a lot to play with there, and I think all of those things were attractive to us, and and really started guiding or pulling our attention until um until more and more, you know, of our activity has been focused that way, and now that's that's really what the bulk of our our focus is on. And and just so people have a sense, you you still have a couple of the traditional or the um what was traditional for you guys, ventures, right? But only about 5 or 10% of your activity is there, and fully 90% is is is doing the SMB acquiring and and operating. Yeah, the bulk of our focus is on um acquiring and operating small businesses, and uh we have done some early-stage investments in the past, and um and still have a portfolio of that. Yeah. Mhm. And Trevor, did you all hear about capital S search or entre- entrepreneurship through acquisition, ETA, or did you kind of learn about, you know, the the opportunity that all of this presents on your own by sniffing around? I think it's a little bit of both. Our our team all kind of comes at this journey from different places. Uh some have been uh in the small business kind of buying and selling company world for a long time, and that's kind of where they where they've cut their teeth. Um some of us have, like myself or or pretty recent to it, um and have discovered it only in the last few years. Uh and then I think one of our one of our another partner of ours, one of our founding partners, uh Max, has he took he took the um HBS course that was focused on um on buying a business um years ago back when he was in um he was in business school. And so, I think that was when some of his first sort of inclinations of the opportunity came in. So, it's it was really quite a mix. We some of us knew about it and have sort of learned about and and were were attracted to the world by some of the kind of early thinkers and and doers in this space, and then others have just sort of backed into it. Mhm. Mhm. And you you keep referring to us and we. You've now mentioned Max, um but who who is who is kind of the the the team or the the brain trust here that's that is Saturn 5? Yeah, good question. So, we're a small team uh that that's focused both across the the deal acquisition side and uh portfolio management, founded by uh two people, uh Max Anderson and and Evan Loomis, and uh we're pretty collaborative. So, we'll we'll work both um in supporting the leaders of our companies, and then uh finding and doing new deals. It's important to note just as a as our HoldCo model, uh the the way that it works is we collaborate with or partner with leaders who are um embedded in the companies that are operating them on a day-to-day basis. So, they're really the kind of the front lines day-to-day operations of the companies, and and um I end up getting way more, you know, operationally involved. I think we all do, you know, than than you might um imagine or expect, which I actually love. Um but it's it's really those CEOs that are that are managing and executing on the day-to-day and that make the businesses work. Well, we're going to we're going to dive pretty deeply into that, but I'm going to put a pin in it for the moment. Um obviously, doing the HoldCo model is all about finding leaders, good leaders to run run your businesses, and and that's a common bottleneck. We'll return to it. Uh I I do want to ask just about your evolution from tech, Saturn 5's own evolution from a venture studio. You um why didn't you guys see the traditional raising VC as the answer to funding a startup that was getting traction? Well, it is is is the short answer, but the um as a venture studio, the way that you can participate in some of that um funding is, you know, is different. So, um so, the the venture itself, right, can can pursue venture funding, and and that's easy to go out and sell, you know, from like a a fundraising perspective. Um but the venture studio is a is a kind of a different a different thing. So, we we definitely, you know, our the ventures that that we have either launched or or made investments into have gone on to raise additional venture capital, uh some of which um substantial amounts of it. Uh but but as we think about, how do we then do that on repeat, right? Launch these in, you know, investments over and over again, um what keeps what pays our salaries, right, from a day-to-day basis? And Okay, right. Yeah, cuz unlike a HoldCo where, you know, an SMB one of the SMBs is probably sending some of its cash up to headquarters. In a venture studio, that's not going to be happening likely, at least. Yeah, not in the early days. Yeah, there's a bunch of different models, but yeah, you're yeah, right. Like you don't have the the same kind of um cash flow uh dynamics that you do, right? And in small businesses. And so, startups are are cash um you know, vacuums, right? They Like they they suck cash um instead of instead of the opposite, right? Instead of kicking them off, yeah. Uh and I want to hear uh you said something to me on our pre-call about how what you kind of your opinion of startups these days as opportunities. Do you recall? Yeah. How how how how how do you How do you feel about you know, your your buddy going off and doing a startup? What would you tell said buddy? Yeah, and I've said this for for years, even when I spent a lot more time in the in the startup world. And the general advice I would give with talking with early particularly sort of early aspiring and this is not intended to discourage um the the right people from and by right I mean sort of the um uh audacious and ambitious and and crazy enough, right? To to actually do it. But but what I usually say is it it's a bad idea, right? It's like uh starting a company, especially um an early stage um venture backable company is a it's a crazy endeavor. It it it just it does not make sense from a uh pure kind of probabilistic standpoint. And and it's also miserable. Like just from a from an emotional sort of psychological standpoint, it is an extremely taxing uh uh experience. And I think anyone who's actually been you know, been in it or is honest, right? To to others who have been in it will will reflect that that is a fundamental part of the dynamic, right? There there are lots of high highs and it can be beautiful and the returns can be phenomenal, but there are also lots of low lows and and more likely than not, right? The business is going to fail um because that is the default. I heard someone say this this to me years ago. The default state of a startup is death. Right? And so, you're constantly just trying to like inject cash and energy into it to try to get it out of, right? To get it into um you know, out of the gravitational pull, right? Of of death and sort of into orbit or or or beyond. And uh so, for all those uh Yeah, that's right. Default to to get to default to life. Yeah. Exactly. And uh and so, that's that's a um you know, that's a hard that's a hard undertaking. And for some, they don't have any other sort of way or or path uh to pursue. So, it's kind of like they don't have a choice, right? They're just so they're so burdened either by their by the thing that they know, the opportunity that they see, um or they have something driving them, you know, that pushes them into that kind of um you know, that that's sort of special version of insanity. Um and so, I I I guess that's the kind of the the high level of it. I think the other piece here is that um uh you know, speaking about venture specifically, which is its own kind of part of the world, right? There's there are startups and then there are venture backed startups and and um they each have their own plusses and minuses. I think there's a a huge amount of opportunity and and interesting work and meaningful work happening in the in the in the VC world. I think a lot of a lot of what entrepreneurs and and even investors have come to realize over the last several years is that not every company uh is a good fit for uh for venture funding, right? And um and in fact, many many aren't, right? And and so, we we can push um we can push a particular narrative, right? On on a particular opportunity or particular entrepreneur that may not suit it, you know, is this company really going to become, you know, a billion dollar, 10 billion dollar, 100 million dollar company? Um and it probably doesn't need to, right? To see really meaningful outcomes. If if you set if you set your expectations right, if if you if you raise capital in a way that's that's sort of thoughtful, right? On each stage of the journey, then you can see a really meaningful outcome for for the people that are involved that doesn't have to hit those kind of stratosphere numbers. Right. Right. Yeah, so we're talking about new ventures that aren't going to be the next Uber, but could still be completely viable companies. Maybe they're just, you know, 50 million companies, $50 million companies as opposed to, you know, 5 billion dollar companies. Uh and that's a pretty great outcome. Uh it's just it's it just doesn't it just doesn't um it give the the the VCs the economics they need for their, you know, invest in, you know, a portfolio of 20 startups, 19 fail and one is a giant success. Like that's their model. Sure. Yep. Trevor, returning back to Saturn 5 now. So, you get give us a sense now of scale. How many companies are in the portfolio again, please? I know you said it and then give us a sense of kind of um how long have you been at this? How many acquisitions are you doing a year? I'll stop there. So, how many how many in the portfolio? Yep. 15 companies, small businesses in in the portfolio to date. Uh we started in 2017, but have been much more active over the last few years and and are pretty active right now. So, um we're in active acquisition mode right now. I don't don't know exactly how many deals we'll do, but um we're we're definitely active in terms of um uh doing more deals, bringing more companies into the portfolio. And uh just to give you a sense of the type of company, we tend to focus on more services based, which you think of as as kind of traditional um potentially traditional search type companies. So, uh we're we're industry agnostic, but we have a handful of companies in the landscaping and construction spaces. Uh like landscaping installation, um commercial and residential. Uh we've got um nursery and garden center. And and we have some businesses in the adventure tourism space as well. So, white water rafting, um ATV tours, and um snowmobile tours. 15 is um that's a pretty sizable portfolio. Can you give us a sense of what your target size is for acquisitions? Yep. Yeah, we target uh so, we we look at businesses on an EBITDA basis. So, we're looking at profitability. And from one to five million is usually what we target. And how are do you find there like are you developing a playbook with, you know, with 15 with 15 turns at bat at this point? Um are you seeing patterns? Are you developing some sort of, you know, special sauce to to improve these legacy businesses and grow them? Um or is each one, you know, small business is so so messy and idiosyncratic that that each one, you know, is its own adventure? Yes to all of the above. Uh it's I'd say one of the biggest things we are we are learning and and um aspiring to get really good at is how we can be value add both to the the companies and the teams that we partner with um when we when we buy these businesses businesses, but also the leaders, you know, that we're partnering with who lead them. So, how do we become a community of support um that allows them to do uh what they do best and and really execute on taking care of their customers and um and building their their companies. How that plays out um is is definitely a, you know, a constant learning experience and and can be very different depending on you know, each individual each individual business. So, we're we focus a lot on how we might um first do no harm. Uh we we we first buy a company, we know that um there's a lot more that we don't know than there is that we do know. And uh and there's a lot of opportunity to uh break things. You know, you you think about this idea of enduringly profitable companies. Um Well, they're they've been enduringly profitable for a long time and uh and the only variable that will have changed, right? Once you've you've bought them, is you, right? Like you're you're the new thing that just got um entered into this uh somewhat stable um resilient system. And so, being aware of your own likeliness or likelihood, excuse me, to um you know, to cause harm rather than cause your create growth, I think is is the first biggest challenge. And so, we tend to be pretty uh cautious in those first uh few months, even, you know, through the year and beyond to say, "Let's make no major changes right away uh unless we have to, right? Because we really want to make sure we understand, you know, the particular dynamics of this business. And then once we do, then we can start to look at where are the levers for growth and how do we exercise those in a in a thoughtful way, you know, that that allows us to play the long the long game." Yeah. Yeah. The um the geography in which you operate, you said you're you're based in Austin. Uh a lot of the folks are based in Colorado, Denver. It typically to do a search and to find a great search candidate, you know, a searcher or not typically, but often, they need the tighter the geography, the less likely it is they'll find good opportunities for obvious reasons. Good opportunities are rare and if you if you narrow that down even further geographically, it's going to become even harder. You all appear to have done that quite successfully operating primarily really in in two markets, Texas and Colorado and you've acquired 15 businesses. So square that circle for me. I I think that or I wonder that this the the assumption that constraining yourself geographically is a is a hindrance, it's a disadvantage is actually there's there there are reasons for which that is true and there are other reasons for which um it it maybe is not as true as you might think it is. When you start to dig deep into a a single geography, you start to build uh greater relationships, you start to understand the the dynamics and the opportunities within that market. You start to know people, right? You like you you know you know, brokers, you know, sellers, you know, bankers, you know, you know, all kinds of you know, groups that that really start to form their own version of kind of director proprietary search um and and I think for all of those reasons it it can be really beneficial to go deep in a given place and uh one of the things that we um that another another kind of common um requirement for the traditional search model is that you're you're looking all across the nation and Exactly. Um and I we think there are a lot of leaders and a lot of opportunities for which that um if you were to focus yourself geographically um you could find some great companies, right? And you could partner with some great leaders who maybe don't have as much flexibility. And so we like the opportunity to say, you know, we don't we can focus directly on the on the geography we need or the geographies we like, but then we also have the opportunity to work with a leader who wants to stay in their geography and knows it really well or if we find something that's national and and it looks great, awesome. We'll go there. Trevor, the businesses that you've acquired, these 15, are they generally selling are the are the sellers generally retiring or yeah, is it is it the the baby boomer retiring phenomenon in general or are there other are there other reasons why people are selling to Saturn 5? We often work with retiring owners and sometimes that will be a um a a kind of quick transition, but sometimes it'll be a longer one or we'll work with the an owner as the aspiration to retire over a certain period of time and and then we'll work with them in the business for two, three, five years, right? Over a period. So but but generally most of these companies are run by owner operators who've been in the business for 10, 20, 30, you know, 40 years and this is the legacy that they've built and and they're looking for a way to make sure that that's um that's cared for and while also saying, you know, this is kind of their nest egg and um and their opportunity for retirement. So um our hope is that we're able to partner with them and and offer a little bit of both of those things. Mhm. Mhm. And what is the overall strategy? Is it is it kind of a permanent equity model? Just hold on to every acquisition indefinitely, never say never, but essentially an indefinite hold period? You got it. Uh-huh. Okay. And investors are obviously recognize that. I mean typically why you find that model less is because investors want to see, you know, their their capital returned after seven years in a traditional private equity model, but you have found your investors or investor investor capital out there that's open-minded to this kind of being locked up for an indefinite amount of time and then just receiving dividends on all these acquisitions again indefinitely. Yeah, so there is a I think there's a big opportunity actually in in thinking about the it's the same structure, I guess or or opportunity that owner operators think about that I think is is likely true from an investment standpoint, which is um there aren't a lot of opportunities where you get predictable or or or ongoing returns on an investment that you make and um I think these what's what's beautiful about small businesses and I think this is something that family offices have known for a long time is you know, holding these assets can provide um you know, a meaningful stream of returns while also sort of maintaining the underlying value of what you have. Mhm. Mhm. Okay, Trevor, let's get into the operations of each of these. So you just touched on the fact that some of the the seller operators will stay in the business for a number of years. Um so that kind of answers the question for those businesses they you're you know, you basically have the operators stay, so you don't have to go find somebody to manage them. What are you doing in the case where the the seller owner wants to step out and hand the keys over to you and and walk away and just as an asterisk, the the way that you and I met is I saw a post on Search Funder by you looking to hire operators. So maybe I've just answered my own question. You hire somebody in there, but but but uh talk talk me through how you guys think about this and am I correct in thinking that finding operators is really one of the key bottlenecks of building up a HoldCo? Yeah, that's right. And I'll start with that last question first, which is when you think about how to do a model like ours well, you have to really have to have three things. The first is you have to have capital to buy companies. The second is you have to have companies to buy and the third is you have to have leaders, people to operate those companies because I can't physically be at um you know, a a nursery and on the job of some construction site and uh you know, in the sales floor of somewhere else all at the same time. And of those three things, the the people side, the leaders are definitely the most difficult as well as I think the present the biggest opportunity uh for for growth and um for impact. So we think about our um the people we partner with, right? The CEOs of those companies as our our greatest asset and the thing that we want to develop and invest in the most and that can happen in a few different ways. So you mentioned um hiring operators externally and and it is definitely something that we are doing and and are looking to do more of in the future and that can come up in two ways. One is an existing portfolio companies that we have uh we can we can place them into one of our current companies where they can jump uh hit the ground running, you know, into an existing operating company that's already kind of a part of our process and operations. Um other times we'll work with leaders to partner with them on businesses that they may have found or businesses that we have just found and and so that we're actually coming, you know, together with them on day one of acquisition where they're stepping in and and running the company. And and then the third piece is um not as sort of externally focused, but we're we pay close attention to trying to develop internally the people that that we have in our existing companies to say, you know, where might there be opportunity for people who haven't um yet had had the chance or or opportunity to to level up and and can we help you know, help paint that path a little bit for them. Yeah. Let's double click on that second one, which was I guess a searcher has found an opportunity and and brings it to you and and so so flesh that out, that'll be interesting to the audience. So if if somebody listening has an opportunity, should they come to Saturn 5 and what would that conversation and opportunity look like? Yeah, absolutely. So we are a couple things we are and a couple things we are we are not are we're not search fund investors. So we're not making investments into searchers who want to raise a fund and then go out and use that capital to search and buy a company. Um what we are and and what we love doing is partnering with searchers. So either self-funded searchers or or um you know, people who are out looking to buy businesses right now and um and would say, hey, if I find something, you know, that could be that's or within your wheelhouse that could be really attractive that I could um that I could run on a day-to-day basis if they were to ask, you know, would this be interesting to you? I'd say absolutely. And I think on their end what's um what's unique about this opportunity is there aren't a lot of um there are more and more of these, but but there aren't a lot of opportunities where you can have a a more constrained search, so let's say non-traditional, you know, search in terms of the type of business you're looking for or where or where you're looking to buy them. Um and and have the opportunity of both the kind of agency and autonomy of being the CEO, being the the owner operator of the company while also having the support and community of a group that's done this a bunch of times and um and I won't say we're we're certainly not perfect in in providing that kind of insight and we're certainly not you know we don't have the the crystal ball and it's going to be hard no matter what but um but it's a lonely journey and being able to have peer group of like-minded CEOs and insight on others who have both on the on the deal negotiation and execution side but probably even more importantly on the operating side right after you bought these companies. It's hard to kind of over hard to overvalue just how useful that can be to a to an operator. Okay and for for a searcher like this can you speak at all to the economics that you that that Saturn 5 might offer for somebody who who brings a deal your way? Yeah so we are we don't have a kind of baked structure in terms of how we work with with CEOs but when we when we partner with CEOs we we work to make sure that they have a meaningful stake in the company in a way that it has them motivated sort of alongside us so it's a combination of you know structuring it in a way that that allows them the kind of autonomy agency and and ultimately upside right that that can really motivate them while also providing them with a source of capital and potentially the ability to buy a company that would be a lot larger than you might be able to if you were doing an SBA back deal for instance. Sure sure. So you would be an alternative to an SBA loan Saturn 5. Yeah that's right. Not exclusively I I I would say um there's there's lots of I I guess I won't say no in terms of like the different kinds of opportunity or never to the different kinds of opportunities we might look at but typically we're not we're not investing alongside um SBA debt. Okay. Let's talk a little bit more about what what an like kind of an ideal operator at least what you found. Is there is there a typical persona that you have found that thrives as an operator of a Saturn 5 held business? Um let let I'll leave it there. Yeah. So I'll think about it or I'll speak to it in terms of what the day-to-day experience looks like and what people have to be good at in that day-to-day experience and then I'll speak to their sort of capacity capabilities competencies the more kind of what is you know what are the characteristics of the kinds of people that that we love working with. From a day-to-day perspective is the important things to know especially for for people who are listening who are interested in search or interested in buying a small business particularly our kind of small business which is usually more local services based companies is that these are very on the ground companies and they're usually they can be quite seasonal which means that you know your your time especially in the early days or difficult is difficult to control right so it's you have to kind of love being on the ground in the field on the factory floor that that has to drive you in a way that um kind of gets you excited about getting up up in you know up in the morning it's not that you don't have I think a lot of people get into this opportunity thinking like I'll get to own my time I'll I can imagine like you know eventually I won't have to work at all I'll just have this like cash you know this this business that runs itself which you know may be true in in the long term but certainly it will not be true when you when you first buy a company and so if you don't learn how to love that kind of day-to-day experience of working with your team in you know in the field I think things are going to be tough so that would be the first thing I would say is we love working with CEOs who love working with their teams you know they they know how to manage a team of people often a diverse group of people perhaps people that aren't you know like themselves if they if you're looking at someone who's come out of a top flight business school they're going to be they may be working with you know a group of people that never been to college and a different you know set of experiences and backgrounds and so the ability to relate to connect with motivate inspire the team is a huge part of it. The second piece is really it's a it's an ability to figure out what it is that needs to be done and then go do it you know one of the challenges of a small business is especially being the CEO of one is there's no despite what everyone sort of might want to tell you or what others might want to tell you there really is no playbook right there's there's not like a do this then do that then do that like in your particular business and context you've got to figure out what's important right now and everything will feel important everything will feel existential because a lot of it a lot of it is right these are businesses that have you know high key man risk they don't have a lot of systems and processes um a lot of your work will be figuring out how to build in some of that some of that redundancy and resilience um because because often they've the businesses have been successful just because purely out of the hustle right of the the owner operator right the founder that was there before and um and so your job is to then sort of engage and and immerse yourself into that world and then figure out how do I affect it right what do I need to what do I need to do right now and then how do I begin to build the systems the processes the ways of acting and thinking that that help to create repeatable growth in this company over time and then and then the third thing that we look for on a more maybe kind of values aligned basis or from a more characteristics perspective we're looking for for leaders that have a a deep humility a strong sense of curiosity and and a strong drive so are you are you willing to to be curious about the company that you're um you're trying to understand and learn about and and then does that curiosity and humility drive you to continually solve problems to figure out you know what's next to um to have a more kind of growth mindset to what you're taking on so those are the kinds of people if if we've got somebody who loves being in the field loves working with their team can understand the sort of the system you know that they're operating with and can figure out what needs to be done and then has that curiosity and and humility and um and drive we can we can do a lot of a lot of stuff together. Yeah and have you found that there is a particular background or otherwise other kind of persona that checks all those boxes or is it quite a is it quite a like many different paths might might lead to such a person? I don't think there's one path I do think there are a few things that there are some benefits and drawbacks to different types of paths so often or I should say that I think the two most broad ones are people who grew up in the trades or in the type of industry or business that you know we're working with and those who are kind of coming from outside of it and you will for those who who have come out from the world outside say they've gone to a business school and they got introduced the idea of ETA or they're mid-career they've been in kind of middle management at a at a big successful company for a while there will be a big learning curve as they figure out how to switch into the day-to-day operations and and just in terms of industry you know and market knowledge figuring out how does this business work how does this world work and and I don't think that's a there's not a um that person can actually be quite successful in in a business like the ones that that we run but it can take a a little bit of a learning curve to figure out what it is that they don't know that they don't know and so I think that's the you know the potential benefit for them is once they've done that once they've started to figure out how this business works once they've had the humility and curiosity to you know to understand where they are then there's huge potential they can take their learning and their knowledge and their experience from other contexts and embed it engage within their current one and and so there's a lot you know to be done there they just have to they have to kind of persist right keep at it until you can get there. The other type that I mentioned is someone who actually does grow up more in a um kind of in the trade or in the industry and often um these are people who are very good at executing the task I don't know if you've ever read this there's a book called E-Myth Revisited and they have this um you know this this concept of the the technician the manager, and the entrepreneur. Technician is the the person who, you know, bakes the pies or you know, actually does the work on the car or whatever. And then the manager is the one who manages that person, and the entrepreneur is really the visionary and and sort of works in on the company, not in the company. And um the challenge for people who who have perceived a path of more kind of direct industry background and experiences they've been in the business for a long time, and it's difficult for them to get outside of the day-to-day tasks and start to look up and think about what might this become, how do I build you know, the business, how do I inspire and lead my team. You know, the dream for us is that we can find someone who has both, right? You've got some sort of industry expertise that you can lean into, and you've you you've got kind of the exposure and and um and you know, growth experiences that would allow you to look up and and and build that company. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great insight. It's kind of like the person coming from the trades is maybe like all experience, no vision. Of course, I don't mean to sound too harsh, but all experience, no vision. Whereas the person coming from the the professional world with no trades experience is, you know, no experience and all vision. They're just going to buy this business and you know, move pieces around on the chessboard and and have this incredible acquisition story. So, right, sweet spot is if you can, you know, take the positives of of both and find that person. Um I want to also talk about you've you've mentioned loneliness. Uh and this is something that has come up with my guest time and time again and just just in in one of the interviews that aired today, uh in my interview with Andrew Harbin that aired last week, the one of those things that that people hear about, they they know about, they know that, you know, oh, buying a small business and operating it is lonely, but like it you only really sense it when you actually do it. It's all abstract until you feel it, and then you really feel it acutely. Like it's it's something that really that people who do this need to get over because they're they're just not used to it. So, um respond to that, please. And as a as a tack-on to that, something we discussed in the pre-call, um I think the the context of of we had talked about loneliness in the pre-call was would you recommend to a friend who came to you and said, I want a small business, you know, would you say, yeah, go do it, it's awesome, or would you say like pump the brakes a little bit? Yeah, I think the the answer to the to the second question is similar to my answer with with people who are interested in doing a startup or entrepreneurship. And the answer is, don't do it. It's there are a lot of reasons for which it can be really really interesting, really motivating. I think the the challenge is to go into it eyes wide open, and often that takes a fair amount of sort of skepticism sort of that needs to be applied to your own self, right? Around like, how might I really experience this world once I get into it? Because I know that it's um it's going to be different in ways that I can't kind of predict or or imagine right now. And um you know, and I think part of that too is like your life is going to change over the period of owning this company. As your life changes, you might get married, you might have a kid, you might, you know, you're going to change you may change locations if you're looking for a, you know, national search. All those things are sort of fundamental kind of world-shaking experiences that you may come out of with a different set of values, right? And and those values may or may not align with, you know, your day-to-day experience now running this company. And so, how are you going to wrestle with that, right? When when you get to it is a really helpful helpful question to ask yourself. And I think one of those pieces, which will be a a through-line for just about everybody, is that it is a it's a lonely journey. And I think the reasons for which it's lonely is or few. One is these are usually companies that don't have um sort of strong and sustainable leadership. And the problems will come pretty much, you know, unilaterally to you. And the decisions, the biggest ones the company will will need to be made ultimately by you. And and that um that can feel like a burdensome task. And it doesn't have to be that way forever, right? There's a way in which you you begin to build yourself out of that dependency or or that version of key man risk. But often it is the case at the beginning. And so, you just have to kind of um my sense of those being in this position in previous worlds and and working with our CEOs is that there's a degree to which you just have to accept, to your point, the the the fact of of that reality that we're here, you know, this is this is where I am, this is going to feel lonely. And and um and that's okay. You know, that's that's where we're at. I think the other piece there is figuring out, okay, knowing that so much of this is just like you don't have the right contacts, you don't have full knowledge, you don't have, you know, all the information or data that you want. You definitely don't have like a you know, somebody else to point the finger at to make the decision. How can you begin to surround yourself with with community of people who are wrestling with the same thing? And and then how can you try to learn from those who have experienced similar things in the past. And so, I do think that combined with that community combined with experience, right? Just doing it for a little while starts to make the the the feelings, right? The sort of the highs and lows of of that loneliness just a little less acute. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's well said. I I want to plug something that appeared in one of the many interviews that I aired today. Cassie Niecamp bought a fencing business, a small fencing business, knew nothing about fencing. One of the things that she's done done in the last 18 months of ownership is when she went to a fencing owner conference, she found who she considered to be successful other, you know, other fencing owners and so on, and said, hey, let's be in a mastermind. Let's let's let's start a mastermind. She effectively started a mastermind with these more experienced other fencing business owners around the country, just a Zoom call, and it's worked wonders. And so, she feels less lonely, she's learned at a much more accelerated rate, and it's just a wonderful hack for her in terms of her learning to to to learn an industry that she was completely green to, as well as taking the edge off that off that loneliness. So. I love that. I also think you if you talk to a lot of more established owner-operators, and the people that have been, you know, in this space for a while, the often the the kind the kinds of people that are selling these companies, you'll notice that they built a lot of those communities for themselves um naturally over time. They to some degree they may have gotten used to that kind of feeling experience of loneliness, but they also have their buddies, right? They've got like their industry people that they've gotten to know and they've kind of grown up with. And I think that's to be if you can start to build that early on to help accelerate your own learning, it has a huge impact. Yeah. Yeah. Trevor, I want to ask circle back to one of my favorite themes coming from tech and now in doing small businesses. You know, this this world is small businesses are also affectionately called, ironically called boring businesses these days on the internet. Um How do you find boring businesses versus doing, you know, supposedly sexy tech start-uppy businesses? Do they deserve the moniker boring or what? Respond to that. I love this question, and and I used the that language in in the earlier parts of our of our interview, and I actually think it's um it's not necessarily accurate or helpful, and and definitely um not appropriate depending on who you're talking to. But if if um it's a it's sort of an easy thing to to distinguish yourself or to communicate when you're talking to the kind of to the people who are more familiar with TechCrunch or who are grown up in um you know, like at Google or Facebook or whatever, but um these are just businesses for kind of most of us, right? Like they these are the businesses that have been around, you know, for a long time. And they um and they do quite well, and they also um have a lot going on, right? Meaning that they um there's lots of interesting opportunities to pursue, and there are lots of, you know, challenges. They aren't anything but boring, right? From a day-to-day experience. And I think where they where they tend to fall, I think where the boring moniker kind of works is when you're thinking about what tends to be attractive, you know, to people who are just trying to um get into either like investments, right? They're like high risk, high return opportunities, right? Which can feel more um you know, less boring or or or more sexy. Um or just uh people who who maybe just don't have enough context, right? For for what these businesses look like. They're I think another way to think about this sort of traditionally, maybe a a more appropriate way to think to frame it is these are often overlooked, right? Um these are the the type of things that a lot of um people coming out of business school or or middle management or or you know, doing well at a a Google or Facebook just wouldn't have stopped to look at. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been people um looking here, playing here, and working here for a long time, and and actually doing quite well as a result. Mhm. Mhm. Going back to hold cos um and and ETA. So so there's there's kind of two opportunity paths here. There's just go doing buying one an individual acquisition entrepreneur buying a business, which is the vast majority of folks listening. But there are those uh those even hungrier people who who want to start a hold co. Um and you know, the idea of the the mini Berkshire Hathaway and so on is I mean it's alluring. Let's of course it is. Would you um help people think about the path to to doing a hold co? If I'm an I I would be acquisition entrepreneur, is it look, just buy your first business first, man or woman, you know, let's let's I can I you're not you're not Warren Buffett yet. Just buy a first business, prove that you can get a deal done, prove that you can operate and grow the thing, and then we'll talk hold cos. Or is it like, well, if you want to be a hold co eventually, like don't like start figuring out how to be a hold co now, and you'll screw up a lot, but like better to start doing the thing that you aspire to do sooner than later. And maybe you don't need the intermediate step of actually operating the business, cuz your goal is to not ever be an operator. Your goal is to be kind of a capital allocator and provide operating support. Um yeah. Re- re- respond to all of that. I'm I'm somebody who wants who who had kind of has the fantasy of a hold co of small businesses, but I got you know, I haven't done my first deal yet. What do you advise me? Yep. Yeah, great question, and I don't know if I have a direct answer. I I think the I'm tempted to uh to give the advice that is a version of what you said at the beginning, which is hold your horses. You know, go go let's go let's go do one deal, and then see what happens. And I think there's definitely some wisdom to that approach. Um I also think that uh if you're I think the question to ask yourself if you're thinking about what would it look like to have a portfolio of these companies, and um a hold holding company model and uh I think the the first question is why? Right? What what is it that that attracts you um to that idea? And uh and I think the insight that you can get from answering that question can can sometimes be pretty revealing. And if it's and if it's because you just don't want to kind of engage in the day-to-day you know, operations. If you don't actually kind of have a an appreciation or respect sometimes even a a kind of a love for, you know, the work of these companies the day-to-day, you're going to have trouble. Right? Because those problems will bubble up to you, no matter what. Right? You're you're like you're you're going to have to wrestle with those. And uh and then if you don't have that um motivation that's also connected to the day-to-day work, it's going to be difficult for you to see, you know, the rest of what you want when you're thinking about why you want to why you want to have this. Um so I think there's a lot that you can learn from just asking yourself, you know, what is it about this hold co model that is attractive to me? What is it that I really want to get out of it? What do I imagine myself loving? What do I imagine myself regretting? Yeah. And then the the second piece I would say is to begin to ask yourself you can hear my uh my little 3-year-old in the background, so hopefully it's not too distracting. fine. We are we are not cutting that. I love it. So the the second thing is you have to ask yourself um what is it that I need to be good at when I think about uh having a hold co model? Right? What do what do I have to be uh excellent at in this particular model? And do I have the capacity, capability to execute on those things now? And if not, what do I need to be doing to develop them? And I think that's a good question to ask. And and I think it it probably is distinct from operating uh one company. And it may be it's it's definitely related to you, but it may also be distinct from buying one company. Right? There are other kinds of competencies you've got to figure out right um and get right. And uh and thinking about those, how you know, how they're going to be funded, what your your um growth path will be, uh what will it look like to do not just, you know, one deal over a period of time, but multiple. Do you want to focus on a single industry or or or do you want to be industry agnostic? You know, all those all those questions can be helpful to at least wrestle with now, not to figure out, cuz you're you're you could spend a lot of time designing a system that will work for uh nothing except for, you know, what what happens in your mind. Uh but but to to try to at least develop some assumptions around what you might need to go test or or develop now. Mhm. Mhm. Trevor, I want to start wrapping up um but I I I got to ask, and I and I mean this with all respect. Uh Chenmark is a buy and hold small businesses well-known name in this world. Permanent equity, Brent Beshore is very well-known in this world and outside this world, and um it's brought a lot of attention to the world. Saturn 5, you guys have done 15 acquisitions in in a relatively short amount of time, and and it took you posting me happening upon your post on Search Funder for me to to to learn about Saturn 5. So um have I just been living under a rock, or have you guys been been quiet, or uh you know, you you seem like you're really really active, but I'm only now hearing about you. Who whose fault is that? Mine or yours? That is that is our fault, for sure. Uh we have been uh heads down focusing on on our companies. And I think the the big thing for us is let's figure out how to operate well, you know, how to do the work well, and we haven't spent a lot of attention um kind of looking up. We we know and respect um all those people that you mentioned, and um and have a a great amount of um admiration for for the people who are doing really meaningful work here. Um so we could probably stand to spend more time engaging um in the community, and and uh and one of one of the things we've got on our minds um in the coming months and years is to do more of that, es- especially as we think about how do we build a more um meaningful pipeline of talent and operators that we can use to engage um in our company. So our hope is to begin to do more of that um as the as the months and years come, and uh and yeah, play see see what we can do to kind of listen to and and and speak into the the growing community that's here already. Let's end with just a couple kind of um thoughts about the future, Trevor. First, macroeconomic client climate. Can you just you know, respond to that, or you know, what's that doing? Is our multiples coming down, and you know, is it is is this good or bad for acquisition entrepreneurs? So weigh in to what what you guys are feeling about that. And then secondly, just respond to this. Like you guys must be pretty excited. I mean, you've done 15 acquisitions, you know, you you've probably some of the hardest kind of operating figuring this out is kind of behind you. Presumably you you've got kind of a lot of dry powder. You've got this great track record so far, and we've still got another 10 years of baby boomers retiring. Like from where I'm sitting, you know, you guys are you guys are pretty psyched about what, you know, where you're at for for the next decade. So on as as a last question, respond to that. But first, please what what do you think about the the this impending recession? Yeah, we're thinking a lot about the macroeconomic dynamics, and what it might do to um the companies we're currently operating, um how that might change the operating environment, and then what it might look like for new acquisitions, and I'm and and I think a lot of things are are going to be happening, you know, over the next um several months as the result of that. Some of which will be good, some of which will be challenging. And and I think the the key thing is to focus on what's within our control, and just to kind of keep our our focus narrowly on those, um and and maybe, you know, care a little bit less about what's what's exogenous to us. Um you know, on the on the deal side, I I think this is um it this is not I'm I'm giving advice that is um someone else on our team was was saying earlier, but I think generally what you'll see is um you know, as as the economy um as the if and as the economy doesn't do well, you're going to see um a lot of businesses that were sellable in a uh low interest, you know, high growth economy that just aren't sellable anymore. Right? They're just going to be less um less buyers for that. And so, I think for those who are sort of interested in waiting in those territories, like they're they probably could get something for a pretty cheap deal. Whether or not that deal's worth buying is a different question. Uh, I think there's, um, there's going to be great companies, um, that are that are going to be coming into the market, um, as there always is. And I think for those, um, they're they they tend to be kind of resistant to individual market dynamics. And so, I don't think you'd see a lot of movement there in just in terms of price, um, because of when you have sort of deep, you know, value, um, fundamental value, right, in in those companies that I think you tend to see maybe there's some movement, but I think they'll probably trade pretty close to where they're trading, um, on a on a typical business uh, or typical like I guess when you think about today or or in the past, um, but I also think, you know, there's it's it, um, it's going to be it's going to be interesting. But, I think we'll see, um, there is different kinds of, you know, debt debt will be a factor, but I don't know if it's going to be for us anyway, like maybe if you're if you're, um, for people who are buying kind of highly leveraged companies, it has a much bigger impact in terms of, you know, what it takes, um, to So, so I would I would be thinking about it a lot if I'm, you know, if I'm trying to do an 80% you know, SBA SBA funded deal, um, because it I would look at my assumptions and try to figure out, you know, where if I'm wrong, right? When when do things go bad and and how bad do they do they get? Um, I think speaking sort of shifting gears and speaking to the operating world a little bit, um, this is a great time to focus on building up um, your balance sheet, um, or paying down debt. Uh, this is, you know, a good time to be, um, thinking through who are the people that you really, you know, value and care about and how do you make sure you're investing in those and in protecting that that you can keep them, um, through a, you know, through a hard season. And I think it's good just to do some kind of high-level scenario planning. Just to say like what if we you know, if we're 25% down in revenue this year, what happens? If we're 50% down, what happens? You know, what what can I do? What what what's available to me in those scenarios? Yeah. To your Long term. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, to your second question around, uh, long term. I I am, uh, I and and we're we're quite bullish on the opportunity, uh, long term. I do think there are sort of fundamental dynamics that are still at play. Like you said, there's still a lot of companies that, um, this this generational shift is still happening. Uh, I think that, um, there's been more energy into this space and I think that's overall is a good thing. It creates, um, creates some competition, but it also creates some more support, uh, for people who are interested in and, um, you know, engaging in this world. And, um, and I think the work and the task is to is to execute well, to, you know, to build a a good reputation, kind of no matter where you are in in your journey and and, uh, I think if you can do those those two things, you're going to see some My hope is that, you know, we'll all see some, um, some meaningful impact. Great. Well, let's leave it there, Trevor. This has been really really great to hear about what Saturn 5 is up to. I I'm I'm so glad to be bringing some some attention to to you guys. Uh, really impressive, uh, HoldCo that I was unaware of until just a couple months ago. So, eager to have you back on and hear how things are going in another 12 months or so. Thanks very much for coming on. Well, this has been a ton of fun. Thanks for having me.