Martin bispells welcome back to acquiring minds thanks so much yeah great to be here well good to see you again Martin and I first interviewed you uh back on September 7 2021 so about 20 months ago you'd bought a consumer product business a d2c business Upper Park Disc Golf that manufactures and sells its own line of bags for people who play the sport of disc golf so we're going to get an update on how things have gone in the last year and a half plus since we talked but first Martin can you refresh our memories and give us a little bit more on your back story and how it was that you came to acquire Upper Park Disc Golf yeah so my background is as a you know big company executive I resign at 14 had my own Consulting practice and then looked to acquire this business in September of 20. uh after covet had really taken hold and looking for something new in the next chapter so we acquired the business by business partner Jim and I uh in September of 20 the business had been around since 2011. uh but we liked what we saw and we thought we could take it to the next level the one of the Striking things from that interview Martin was that you basically bought a business that yes while it had some history the sales were literally at zero and the moment you bought it and so was the inventory so it kind of come to a absolute Halt and while you saw a lot of good bones in the business happy customers a proven track record solid products a passionate founder you were still going to kind of have to resurrect this this this business and you are well on your way to doing so when we talked in September 2021 we we literally talked the day after your one year anniversary of buying the business um so tell us and in that moment you were looking at revenues getting to about two million dollars or over two million dollars that was your next big milestone um in Fall 2021 can you give us a sense of where revenues are today yeah so we haven't gone quite there but we're certainly better than we were our first year which is good uh gross revenues definitely eclipsed a million and I think we can still get there within maybe another year or two uh based on you know Trend and what we're doing to move the business and in many ways the business seemed like a very coveted friendly business it was d2c e-commerce and it was in a sport that was an outdoor Sport and not only that an outdoor sport where you don't necessarily have to be close to one another um for for those who aren't familiar with disc golf maybe give us five seconds or 10 seconds on on what that looks like and then and then my question will be um have you basically felt the slowdown in kind of covet activities and e-commerce those those two things that you were probably benefiting from have you also felt a Slowdown in yeah so uh all the things you said were true in addition to the fact that disc golf was just exploding as a sport it's one of the most popular sports right up there with pickleball that everybody talks about uh and so and still even now five new disc golf courses are going on the ground every day so it's still growing very fast uh and so we caught that wave um I would say that you know we're still we're still growing uh but it's certainly been challenged I think you know partly just by the economy being very bumpy uh it's just inconsistent right you know you as you see a lot of e-commerce reporting uh and Trends and benchmarks and all of this it's just very bumpy right there's there's still strengths you know areas of strength but a lot of areas that are struggling uh for various reasons supply chain whatever consumer Behavior et cetera uh and so we're just sort of riding that wave and we're kind of somewhere in the middle okay okay and and what does the sport look like uh you know still growing like crazy the professional game is certainly growing and becoming more popular uh the crowd size for example at major events is growing um more people are more aware of it uh it's still one of those things that people are either way way into it or they're like what are these metal baskets in the middle of the woods you know and so uh there's still that sort of Tipping Point where people really get it and get into it um uh and so you know Sports growing the community is great uh it's certainly changing as well in a variety of ways we sponsor over 60 players so we're very in tune with what's kind of happening uh you know as I like to say you know what's the word on the course right and so you really understand what's happening out there as far as Trends and competitors and you know player activity and so forth uh so yeah it's uh it's still a fun place to be a good community of people Martin when you talk about the business being lumpy bumpy that says to me kind of unpredictable and a lot in the economy is unpredictable uh and particularly now but one of the things that was really striking about our first conversation and and you were one of my earlier interviews I've since interviewed many dozens of people more and it's still listening back to your interview was striking you and your business partner were extremely methodical in planning what you would do the business after you acquired it you had very structured plans for what it was going to look like in terms of the people you were going to hire what you were going to hire them for what you were going to spend your budgeting I think you had a three five ten year plan even how does that how is all of that stuff still in play or is it kind of out the window with the unpredictable nature of what this Market is yeah I it's certainly still very much in place so I I think I mentioned I used uh EOS which is the entrepreneur operating system and it's part of that it's available at EOS worldwide it's a free plug I'm not paid by them or anything uh but I found it to be very helpful both with Upper Park but also when I was Consulting uh you know and using it with my Consulting clients so it's a system of you know tools and tactics to be able to run the business and as part of that right having a one year three year ten year goal and plans very specifically not just Revenue but really what the business will look like how we will operate and we're still very much following that uh so uh and I find that to be very helpful because when things are lumpy right we have days that we're like wow we're doing great or weeks or months and other well we say oh gosh that wasn't what we expected uh you know that is still a good uh anchoring point of where where we're going and how we're going to get there uh specifically so write down to quarterly goals knowing what are the three most important things we're going to do this quarter and what I find in in working with you know different businesses of all different sizes is you know half the battle is getting all of the people to row in the same Direct action right you know people can do anything businesses can do anything I'm a firm believer and I'm very optimistic when it comes to that but yeah everyone has to know what the plan is and be marching towards it otherwise I can't tell you the number of Consulting clients I've had where you walk in with the senior team and you say okay everybody what what are the three most important things you're working on right now and you know they're like by the end of the conference no what do you mean I thought we were you know okay but but you know what that's all opportunity because you know if the business is already doing okay and you can just get a little more aligned around these things then you can really you know gain gain traction and momentum right and so I try to do that uh as you know as CEO of Elder Park making sure everyone our design team or vendors or you know social media person everybody understands uh what what it is we're trying to achieve and how we're going to get there and so whether it's a marketing initiative or uh whatever supply chain changes or whatever you know trying to inform keep people informed so they feel like they're part of something and they understand why we're doing certain things that's fascinating and Martin I actually don't think that you called out EOS in our first conversation so I didn't realize it that you were using EOS um and and so you can EOS works just as well in a d2c remote operated e-commerce business as it does in a traditional in-person Services business oh I find it as a matter of fact I think it's even more helpful because you're not in person you know I'm running the entire business from my barn none of my team I my supply chain guy was here once but everyone has worked remotely uh I only met my developer last summer because we were at both at an event that I invited her to so being remote it makes it even more important you know to over communicate and have for everyone on the same page right that's talked about a lot of business but this is a way to actually make it happen great and your team I believe when we spoke last was around seven people I don't recall if that was seven people plus you or anyway what is your what does your team look like today yeah so now we're actually uh at about four uh because I've trimmed things down a little bit and I've taken on some of it myself uh for example uh paid advertising you know I've I've had uh people focused on that I've had agencies I've tried I've done it myself uh it's one of those things that you know one of many things that I can do I know how but it's a question of how is my time best spent right is it doing that or is it getting someone who has that expertise and letting them run at it um but you know we've continued to make Personnel changes and you know it's just amazing how much good talent is out there uh and quite honestly what you can get for the for the price uh you know you can get some virtual people that are happy to work remotely my developer lamia is amazing uh you know but and she's very experienced she's done big things in the past and uh but loves working uh with us in Upper Park and uh you know and and it's it's economical for me I'm not paying for an office and benefits and all of that and so you know we've been fortunate to be be able to have the right people in the right seats which is another EOS tool or way of thinking about it and that's been extraordinarily helpful Martin one of the things that you had said toward the end of our conversation last time is you ask yourself every day you make a point to set aside some time every day to say what can only I do what can only I as CEO leader of this organization do because as you said you've witnessed so many entrepreneurs and leaders get into the weeds they can't help themselves and so you have this daily discipline where you force yourself to say what is the thing that only I could be working on and that's where I should put my energy doing the managing the ads online is now something that you consider that you should should be doing A and B do you still do you still have that daily ritual yeah I do definitely have a daily ritual and it's not an ego thing it sounds you know egotistical say what can only I do it's not that's not it it's really how is my time best spent right right and therefore what am I spending the time on that truly only I can do the big strategic relationships the bigger decisions the setting of the annual goals uh you know those kinds of things are are where I should be focused on right and then hire people that are smarter than me uh to to do all of the all the knits and Nats of the business right whether it's paid ads or social media or et cetera um and then you know I also have found and this has been something new since the last time we spoke you know even finding uh people that are they're willing to help out uh you know for example some of the player team uh you know who are people were sponsoring right because they're either Pro players playing on the tournaments or they're helping out with uh you know in their in their running events their local areas and offensive thing what I've found is that they want to be involved and so for example we built a Discord channel uh and one of our team members said well I've built a bunch of these before I'd love to help build it great you know and I you know send them a bag as a thank you you know and and so there's uh you know there's some neat uh Dynamics there when you get people involved because they truly want to be involved it's not because they're looking for their next job you know uh and and I think that makes it stronger because then you know he's invested in it and he has you know uh something he's passionate about and and our Discord channel is great now it's just for the team you just said a couple minutes ago Martin it's amazing how much good talent is out there and at a frankly reasonable price well that's gonna that's gonna be uh news to the years of many of my listeners uh for whom finding people to hire is is their biggest bottleneck their biggest challenge now obviously as a remote business and online e-commerce d2c business caller what you will you have the great benefit of of the entire world being your your labor pool um so I guess the question would be if you're looking at upwork or or just sort of any online platform to hire somebody either in the US or around the world you don't feel like the labor supply has has tightened noticeably like it has in you know in the domestic U.S market of hiring people to to to to to do you know physically show up right yeah I honestly don't I I feel like there's just as much if not more Town available and and I and I come to that uh because I you know even way before covet I was using virtual assistants for example so working remotely and using virtual assistants was not something I was trying to figure out you know in March of 2020 when everything when the world changed uh I had already years of experience right of and I think there's a couple things one is there's a ton of agencies and all kinds of virtual assistant you know places and you know a million platforms to find people but that's not the hard part you know the the most important part is giving people you know clear accountabilities clear understanding of what's expected of them managing the people is really what's most important setting clear expectations and accountabilities uh and and you know building a culture uh around a team even though it's remote uh that they want to be a part of right so another part of EOS that we've really instilled is our core values and I tell people right up front even before I hire them uh you know that this is what we stand for this is what we're all about one of our core values is be a good human right and others create legendary relationships and so I I talk about these these core values with anybody that I'm going to hire uh they understand all of that they understand their accountabilities uh it's Crystal Clear and again I think that's half the battle it goes just like I said about having everyone Roan in the same direction that communication uh is is absolutely critical and I think that's part of What's led to having great people on the team back now to some of the Dynamics of the business um are you all selling on Amazon or not and the reason I laugh is uh you know I think I shared before that I am not a fan of selling on Amazon um and interestingly you know we surveyed our customers and we asked them where are you buying your disc golf stuff all over your desk you know disks whatever uh and less than one percent said Amazon which honestly was surprising because everybody buys stuff but what it led to was an understanding of that and some other survey results and talking to customers you know they want to buy from people who love disc golf and are really into it and know what they're talking about and so you know and I think that's a differentiator uh of our business you know when we bought the business it was from a guy John Who Loved disc golf he worked in the industry he really knew disc golf he knew why that he had designed the bags the way he would want one as a disc golf player uh so it was different than somebody who maybe makes luggage and all of a sudden decided to make disc golf you know backpacks uh just completely different mindset and and so uh I think the customer respects the fact that we that we know what we're talking about I've played disc golf for 30 years myself I have a basket right out here by my grill that's on my barn I play all the time and so I think the customer can kind of feel that it certainly comes through in our social posts and the way we support the team and the way we support a non-profit disc golf related non-profit called you play Disc Golf where I'm president of the board of directors uh and it comes across in our customer satisfaction and which is 98 which I'm very proud of uh and so you know I think we can sell on Amazon perhaps just as a way to get eyeballs I almost look at Amazon as as Tick Tock advertising right we've done our fair share of you know Google and Facebook meta advertising and Tick Tock in my opinion is still good for brand awareness but not necessarily conversions I think Amazon is kind of the same I think it's a way to be out there uh so we might list a few items there um but it's it's mostly going to be a d2c play that's great on the point about e-commerce and passion products our passion Industries I've looked at a number of e-commerce deals Martin and and although not one like yours and so maybe this is I'm going to answer my own question but um I often ask myself when I see some of these businesses even if they're d2c it's not clear to me why they continue to get traffic it's often not clear to me why they continue to get traffic and customers instead of Amazon because what they might be selling it's if it's not their own product if it's not their own branded product for example but they're you know they're a store for X category why they kind of what value proposition they have over Amazon um and you might and you might say well they you know they're going to be people who don't like Amazon okay but that that's not a strong enough value proposition for me you might say that there's some Legacy buyers who have just been buying from the same e-commerce store forever all so not strong enough for me um do you have any on thoughts on this question in e-commerce broadly I guess what I'm trying to draw you out on there will be a lot of people listening who have looked at e-commerce businesses and what they can learn from your experience in buying an e-commerce business versus the many that you see for sale out there yeah so I think you know you have to do a lot of things right and it's difficult and it's that I'm not going to sugarcoat it um and I think differentiating from what else is on Amazon uh you know when I was at QVC you know when I led sales there uh you know we would talk a lot about the difference between buying and shopping uh and and Amazon is very much a buying you know any deodorant I go on I'm on there for 30 seconds I click click and I'm done you know that's not a shopping experience and believe me I know this is soft right you know it's a soft reason but I do think that there is something about the experience like I said of buying from people who know what they're talking about yeah Amazon site is very you know it's very sterile right you know it's all about efficiency and you know and God knows they've tested it a million ways to know what the best click-through rate and all of that you know I think an e-commerce business on a Shopify platform for example can you know can tell the story better I think can can can relate to the community we we have great ugc for example uh you know we have videos of our players reviewing the bags you know there's a there's a sense of uh you know a real sense of brand that comes through on an e-commerce site that just you just can't replicate on on on an Amazon so I think that's part of it and Martin uh another thing that a lot of the listeners will be contemplating is is if they were to buy an e-commerce business or already have or frankly any business buying a second one and a third one perhaps and maybe building a portfolio or a small hold Co um you had M A experience from your corporate years then you did this deal kind of as an entrepreneur you it did a deal have you looked at doing another acquisition either within disc golf or or without yeah we've certainly looked at it and because the advantages are clear right you know the operational leverage you know Quantum economies of scale you can call whatever you want but right to to to be able to for example you know have your 3pl costs spread out over a couple of business you know it's obvious Advantage uh and and tough for a single business to you know to optimize so I'm going through that now and I'm we're on our uh fourth three PL uh in in the two and a half years uh because we've had issues and I've had to dig in and I'm still having issues and you know I used to there's always more to do there um but uh yeah so I think you know we we have looked at other opportunities uh both in disc golf and outside uh to see you know small cap Ventures is our parent company and uh certainly that that could be a holding business for a number of different businesses not just this one uh and so you know we're opportunistic we'll we'll we'll we'll do it if it makes sense uh we certainly don't have uh you know unlike my one three and ten year plan uh we don't have a particular Target or goal for this year a number of business or anything like that uh but you know we have looked at possible adjacencies we've also looked at the other opportunity the other way to look at this which is you know there are a number of strategics within uh the disc golf space and the Sporting Goods space uh that you know would be sort of logical Partners uh you know maybe to come in on a on an equity basis and so we've looked at that and we've had some conversations you know nothing imminent but you know there's possibilities there and I like that because I'm a big fan of you know uh if you share the pie the pie gets bigger you know I really do believe that and uh you know the right kind of partnership that adds real value and connections you know it could make some sense one of the reasons that I'm interested in your view there is not just because that's how my listeners are thinking but also because when I kind of hear how you're describing your business when we talked um back in September 2021 you've taken it from zero to approaching two million dollars in Revenue in a in a in a year and now things have gotten a little lumpier a little flatter and so the game has shifted perhaps from kind of high growth to operational efficiency and there's only so much operational efficiency that you can really ring out of out of your operations at which point a lot of people in in this audience will you know will will consider inorganic growth buying another business as a way to to to um to to grow either that business or a holdsco so I was just does that play into your your thoughts about what the future holds because upper Upper Park is is maybe a little bit um more mature and less high growth than it was when we talked class that you know looking around for ways to grow would would necessarily include buying buying more stuff yeah yeah it certainly could and and you know if it's the right match and the right compliment to the business right or if there's operational efficiencies because we do similar things and can share resources absolutely and I and I look at those things uh but but I also look at you know what else can we add to the business right and what else can we sort of bolt on uh for example we we sell disc golf bags uh you know there's a number we don't sell disks it's the most obvious category uh so we're actually going to be launching our line of this here soon uh you know and and we'll again do it in a curated way I'm not trying to be the biggest disk seller out there uh but we'll do things that are obvious compliments to what we to what we have right some branded products for example um another way to grow that's sort of in the partnership category that I really like um is is is having other Shopify store products on our site all right basically through a drop ship platform and it's funny I you know I attended the Shopify uh employee off-site uh events last summer three of them and I said to them you know why isn't it easier for Shopify sellers to just sell each other's products you know like it's a great idea right I mean there's a lot of cool products out there and companies that have neat you know like us like Niche you know Innovative um and and so now of course uh and they said yeah that's you're right well I don't know if it existed back then or not but now we we've actually discovered there's an app called Cairo uh CAO that uh allows us to do just that and there's thousands of products on their Marketplace and they've this attack is good and they make it very easy so we just added some apparel and some gear items uh you know as a way to broaden our assortment right and if you give the customers more to look at and more to shop for it's going to bring more traffic and engagement you know and you'll sell more bags you know so we've been leveraging that that's very recent uh and then so that's kind of a way to you know sort of get your it to get the advantage right of having additional products and and some of those efficiencies uh without actually you know doing an acquisition oh what I want to tie this back into this distinction you made between shopping and buying and I think it is probably self-explanatory but but indulge us and give us that that framework for thinking about those two different those two activities differently yeah so you know I think any kind of commodity product you know it's really just about price and you don't really care what brand of deodorant you're going to use maybe there's some ingredients you care about but not really and and once whatever's on sale fine that's very different from you know the kinds of products that we sell and also that I remember you know from my days at QVC where you know there's a story there's a Founder story there's an origin story of how they came up with the product and how it's made and where it's sourced and you know one of my favorites a guy that I've recently run into is he has a honey farm in Colorado and he has 150 hives and he makes this amazing honey it's called frangiosa farms and uh and the guy Nick is the owner and he's just the nicest guy and he's got the handlebar mustache and you know and his kids help him you know on the farm and and so there's really something special about that and feeling you know when I have his honey I feel like there's a real connection there uh as opposed to just you know whatever honey is in the supermarket aisle you know and I think that's a real difference I I like those kinds of things I like supporting businesses that I like and admire and respect um it I feel like my life is richer when I have those kinds of products and stories uh you know in my life um and I think you know the most people are the same you know but again there's other times when I just I know what I want I just you know send it to me and it'll be here tomorrow great so to me that's the difference between shopping and buying and I think okay again it's the power of brand right it's really just got what comes back to building a brand explaining your brand living your brand values that that's just critical well at the risk of of uh overstating this or over analyzing it I wonder if there's for for people interested in buying an e-commerce business if there's a um a thesis or or at least a Criterion of look for d2c businesses that are what you just described that are kind of founder owned led the brand proposition is is is really clear and and strong and there's kind of craftsmanship behind it all of the things that we associate with craft and quality um but which are frankly very lacking in the world of e-commerce because there's so much at least it's less so now but for years there was so much Drop Shipping and so much the the amazonification of everything and nearly every product category was just commoditized to death but I wonder if if um that resonates with you kind of if if people out there are interested in buying an e-commerce business if it should be something like what you described something where there's a real uh brand there and a real founder story behind it as opposed to something more commoditized I think so I mean I first of all it's more fun yeah you know if all you're doing is chasing price you know it's short term it's not a lot of fun you're under constant pressure the margins suck you know and so uh that's not a fun way to run a business uh and you know so I stay away from those things both when I was Consulting and certainly with that before now you can certainly still deliver a strong value right you know we're we're very tight on our operational efficiency I've you know worked closely with the factory or supply chain the 3pl everywhere to make sure the value chain is all there so that we're offering a great value to the customer uh and part of that is looking at competition and understanding where you said you know your pricing versus theirs all of that and the product you know the merchandising itself we introduced the new bag model because I wanted something around that hundred dollar Mark which we didn't have and so you know to be a player in the full range of the market possibilities we're never going to make a 20 bag uh but we wanted to have something more with that hundred dollar more entry level kind of you know you're serious about this golf but you're not ready to spend 250 right you know so so it goes right through to your merchandising but yeah looking at the criteria like we originally looked at of you know something that's not a commodity business something that's on Trend something that uh you know has decent uh margins but you can offer a strong value uh something with a a strong supply chain uh available and we've been very fortunate there and we've improved that substantially since we bought the business um we for example we don't Source in China anymore we moved to Vietnam uh that was a huge change the 3pl changes I talked about there's been a ton of packaging I mean there's a ton of other things our sustainability initiatives all of our bags are made out of recycled material now that's a big differentiator so you know a business if I was looking for a business to buy now I'd probably follow many of those same criteria and you know uh you know expand on it a little bit uh and and probably lean even more into the brand the founder story Etc but yeah I mean you know and the most obvious way to do that by the way is look at product reviews uh because you're right when we bought the business there was Zero inventory zero sales but there are a whole bunch of positive reviews of people saying We love these bags well okay I mean so the first order business was just get in stock because once we have product people will buy it and so and how big was the list of customers when you acquired the business I mean you could immediately send them an email and probably start driving right yeah hey we're back in stock right I think it was about 8 000 and we've doubled that uh in the time we've had it eight there's like eight thousand list of about eight thousand people yeah yeah great you know what we're and we're going to be wrapping up here Martin in a minute but um just a couple more quick questions for you again just to try to kind of glean what we can from the opportunity that you found in Upper Park a later guest of mine from our conversation Keith leinbach bought a DDC business offering um something in the automotive business he he was had to be quiet about it he was under non-disclosure he had subsequently sold a PE but um it was kind of an attachment to Vans um that enabled people to people who were living out of their Vans you know hashtag van life to to do so you know more comfortably um so similar to yours it was a d2c product it was a product that had been designed by the founder a product person it was selling into um if you will a hobby Community I mean van life people you know it's a way of a life a lifestyle breakfast Community there yeah yeah yeah and people were passionate about the product and it did very well and as I said he sold after a short amount of time of ownership to private Equity um so I guess I guess the other thing here is if you can if you can identify communities or lifestyle Brands things that where um people are really passionate about something because if you have a product that they like it probably travels quickly there's probably a word of mouth effect there that there isn't when it comes to as you said deodorant or whatever other commoditized product I'm just struck by the similarities between your the two the two products that you and Keith bought care to respond to that absolutely so you know look the way we we buy products most humans is you know we we have an emotional connection and then we justify it and to justify the purchase you know we we have that oh wow that's cool and that a lot of that has to do with identity right who am I as a person how do I want to portray myself to the world and we do that through the products we buy right and so you know the van is this embodiment of your personality and your identity right um and so you know understanding that and and then you know communicating back to Brand you know communicating what it is that we stand for right with our core values and and our social media showing you know it's not just here's a product buy it or here's a product here's the sale it's you know this is what we stand for this is how we live here's examples of our players or us you know living the disc golf lifestyle right you know and and and you can have this too right I mean That's a classic you know sort of marketing tactic and way of explaining products because it's not the physical thing you know it's what it does for you right and so what is the benefit of this product in your life and if you can bring that alive uh as the best marketers do you can be very successful and actually satisfy your customer most of all you know not just you sell them something once but satisfy them the point they want more of it right in their life and we're fortunate that way people have three four five of our bags you know when they only need one at a time excellent uh just let's get into the the mechanics of e-commerce for a minute because you've said two interesting things that again I think people listening who might be interested in e-commerce would like to learn from you uh about moving to Vietnam so we're we're hearing about this this this um what disentanglement uh between the U.S and Chinese Supply chains for all kinds of geopolitical reasons we don't need to go into um also because China's just gotten expensive to the point where the China of 2023 is is Vietnam and and so on so anyway um I've heard about this I've seen headlines about this but you're the first person I'm I'm talking to is actually moved their supplier for their manufacturer from China to Vietnam give us a couple minutes on what that looked like yeah so you know from the very beginning honestly when we acquired the business in September of 20 I knew that I wanted to make this change and it was a matter of finding the right uh manufacturing partner and so we did that through our design team whose wonderful connections and you know our design team uh is is just fantastic they're Veterans of the space uh and it's all about relationships and experience right and so sure anyone can go on Alibaba and find somebody to make something for him uh but that is only the beginning it's the tip of the iceberg when it actually comes to getting a quality product that's truly dialed in the way our our products are we're on version seven eight of each of these bags because John the original owner and now us with John's help because I kept them in the business you know I've continued to just refine and tweak based on customer feedback based on ours so we have all of that knowledge and and and and and design specs right that have been developed over time and so we often talk about original designs it's not just that we took something and knocked knocked off somebody else um but the process you know was a lot of vetting and conversation and relationship building uh and then there's the Tactical part of actually getting samples and make sure they are what they're supposed to be but you know the advantages are clear I mean the the people in China were lovely you know lots of video calls very nice people but sure the geopolitical stuff the fact that I can stand in front of our customers and tell them that you know we're not sourcing out of China and that spy balloon that you heard about you know you don't have to worry about that uh the fact that the people that make our bags go home to their families at night you know those those things all matter uh the quality of the materials the certification you know when we moved into recycled materials uh knowing that they truly are certified recycled materials you know and that they're not you know a lot of green washing goes on right they'll take new stuff new materials grind it up and call it recycle that's it's crazy what happens and so uh you know the quality of the craftsmanship as well and so uh all of those reasons were the reason to move and then the process was all about building the relationship you know uh in the scheme of things we're a smaller player and so any of these factories of course if you're running a factory it's all about volume right and so you know working with them convincing them that you're going to be a good partner you're not just making one order that you're going to come back for more and build the business over time those are all the things that they're looking for you know and and you have to sort of prove yourself uh in order to get there and so that's been really so it's you selling them on you yes and and is that is that just because you chose a manufacturer that had a great reputation lots of demand for their services and it was that sort of dynamic uh that you really had to convince them to take your business uh yes and just the fact that we're you know we are in a niche business right so we're not you know the size of some of their other customers right so uh you know they're willing to take us on but they they want to know that we're going to keep growing and keep bringing them orders otherwise it's just not worth their time you know for a one-off order right none of these none of these factors are looking for one-off customers it's a it's a hassle because you know there's a lot of work that goes into these products and the actual learning how to build these products I mean the craftsmanship is is is extensive and so uh you know they don't want to just make one something one time and then sort of that knowledge is lost they want to you know bring that back and keep making the bags better uh keep making the products better and then so we're we're in a good position there great you had mentioned that you've I think you said you're on your fourth three PL so sure is finding a good 3pl I I this is news to me I didn't realize it was that hard uh in e-commerce so I guess it is it is and you know each has their own strength and and you know really what it comes down to is what's the best match for your kind of business right because they all serve different kinds of businesses different audiences some are more on the you know uh The Big Box uh you know they're fulfilling the e-commerce orders for Big Box retailers well that's completely different from truly being focused on e-commerce and so and then the efficiencies around that and then the you know the packaging uh options and and choices and and optimization of the of the packaging uh and of course the shipping rates and all the so it's a lot and to find the the best one for your business is is not easy it just isn't okay and John the founder is he still working with you guys no very much so yeah so very active uh I'm on slack with him all the time trading ideas uh he's been great now he has a full-time job he and his wife just had a baby and uh so he's certainly busy but uh you know from the beginning I you know very first phone call I told him uh I we're gonna make you an offer but I actually want you to stay part of the business and I gave him a nice Equity stake in order to do that uh because uh he had great knowledge you know about the business and some relationships in the space and uh and even two and a half years later you know that is still come in handy and been valuable so I'm glad that he's uh part of it he's a really good guy too which makes it even better um uh but he also you know appreciates that we've taken you know the business uh you know to a new level and and leaned in a lot more on brand than really he had time uh to do before and expand the team you know again more than he had time to do so he appreciates you know sort of the updates we've made to the to the business um and yeah it's something I'd recommend you know it's got to be the right fit and there's got to be the right relationship there but uh you know when it works it's it's very very helpful you know it's interesting Martin a lot of my guests will particularly first time acquisition entrepreneurs will feel like they really want that seller owner around for as long as possible because they're insecure about you know the knowledge transfer and making sure you know that all of the potential um all of the potential risk in a transition uh with having the owner there as long as possible in theory would smooth things out but then what you'll also hear is that kind of once that first transition is is passed maybe the first 30 or 60 days it actually starts to feel a little I don't know too many cooks in the kitchen and uh and and and and they'll be surprised at at finding that oh actually I kind of want the seller to be on their merry way but please respond I mean it's really just about communication and expectations you know uh from the very first phone call I said to him uh you know I understand what you're saying but but for the very first phone call I said to him all right what do you love to do because I love designing the bags making the bags better figuring out how to make them okay what do you not like to do oh God the supply chain stuff and the customer support great I'll hire people and I'll do you know all that other stuff uh you know you just keep focused on working with us the design team and the and the factory to make the bags better and better great you know and and he was relieved you know he was a great oh my God this is a dream you know to to just be able to focus on what to him is the fun part now I have another guy Tim who's like my supply chain guy he loves this stuff he loves wrestling with a 3PO and figuring out the best way to make things happen and you know and so everybody has their strengths and setting people up for what they really enjoy doing and what they're good at uh is is critical right so again accountability chart expectations communication uh is just critical so I wonder if the takeaway for that is for listeners is you know when when contemplating how much you want this seller to remain in the business if you if it's more than just kind of a Consulting contract uh where they're you know downloading their knowledge into your brain if they're actually active in the business if it's like having that conversation that you just had what do you enjoy about the business what are you really good at and then and then setting a really bright red line fence if you will around everything else and they can't really you say okay you're if you're really into sales you can continue doing sales and and let me do everything else or something like that just re redefine where they'll sit in the organization and and allow them to do what they love and less of what they don't love but that also means that they can't really you know you guys won't be stepping on each other's toes there yeah and and right and just being you know no he can certainly make suggestions that he does you know and and I'll ask him hey here's a marketing idea no he's kind of he's a marketing guy and his other job and his you know his other position and so he certainly is marketing knowledge it's all bounce ideas off of them and things like that uh and help suggest things but but he understands the dynamic that ultimately you know he's going to suggest stuff but that's not his wheelhouse and you know that's not what you know ultimately I'm going to make the decision that's all you know it's just clear communication yeah Martin anything I didn't ask that you would let the listeners know about where you are and Upper Park is and the whole process I think just e-commerce will continue to evolve I I still think that you know d2c has a place and I think with the right Brand Story and the right operational efficiency you can be very very successful I don't think everyone has to just give it up and say well we're just going to sell on Amazon I don't think that's true and matter of fact I think over time that's going to be less true so I still believe indeed to C and in brand and it's storytelling and in the connections that you can have with people through products and so I think you know I I would encourage anyone who's looking to do it uh to to lean into those things uh and and and and and you know when when it works it can be incredibly rewarding great great note to end on and if one people want to get in touch with you Martin any questions is email still the your preferred way yeah sure I'm Martin at upper partiskgolf.com yeah great thanks for coming back on Martin it's been a great update appreciate your time and and you're sharing all of us with us you bet well thanks I hope you enjoyed that interview make sure you subscribe to the acquiring minds Channel below we are now publishing twice a week so tons of new interviews and stories to come stories that will help you along your own path to acquiring a business