Alex glasner welcome back to acquiring minds hi how's it going Alex I interviewed you originally back in January of 2022 so 16 months ago you had acquired a business the previous September so you were only about four months into your role as owner new owner today we're going to hear how things have gone let's start off with a refresher please give us a little background on you Alex and tell us briefly about your search and what you bought okay so brief background to me I'm Alex from London originally and my career has been a bit everywhere so I spent a few years working in Politics As I say a speechwriter more I was like a diary manager Daniel dog's body um spent most of my career in finance business strategy I also spent five years in the US I went to business school um in Boston where I found out about uh entrepreneurship through acquisition um after business school I went to go and work in Investment Banking um did that for about two years and then started my search in the middle of the pandemic in the end of 2020 um was doing a self-funded search I um found work pays um in the beginning of 2021 so pretty soon and then we completed in June um workpiece is a um and I'm going to say this very quickly because it doesn't mean very much an employability and skills training provider essentially we do three things one we help um unemployed people get the skills that they need to and to enable them to get a job two we help them find a job and three once they're in a job we help them upskill so they can progress in their career beautiful okay so and so you actually closed on the business in June of 2021 no that's no that's when we signed the LOI no September right yeah okay you know well I'm gonna link of course to your previous interview in the show notes it was a great interview we get into your search one of the things that was striking then and you were one of my earlier interviews but remains striking because I don't think I've heard anybody be as systematic um about the prep for their search so you talked to you interviewed like 50 former Searchers you said something that was was really interesting which is that you learned a lot the most in those 50 interviews from those who had failed to acquire or acquired and it had gone badly than you did from those who had been successful um which is something that actually has later been validated because when I do interviews with folks whose searches went badly I mean people absolutely uh love hearing those stories so I I guess you were right on there um and then you you had you you set up the whole infrastructure for your search over the course of six weeks and then you really hammered it so a very organized search um people could really take a lesson from that so um go back and listen to episode one with Alex everyone all right sir let's just start with kind of an open-ended question how is it going I'm going to say a couple of things so firstly the reason I was smiling while you were just talking is because the number of people who've called me up subsequently to say um can you put me in touch people who failed people don't like to be known as someone who didn't fit it didn't pass didn't do so well in their search funds I generally say you know what maybe you should search I I don't really want to say that's the first thing secondly how is it going so you talk about how systematic my search was and I think I thought very early on that I need a really rigid infrastructure to enable me to do my work better and I think that was really helpful for me um how is it at workpiece I think that it is when you have a company of 130 people doing that is significantly more difficult and one of the benefits of the Searcher can bring is professionalizing in a vertical as an organization I have been trying to do that and a year and a half into buying having acquired work pays and still struggle with that absolutely every day so trying to impose this sort of rigid structure that I had um on um I had constant Peak my search fund on 130 people um and I think the fact that it's a year and a half later and I feel like we have made a lot of progress but not perhaps not as much as I would like um I think just goes to show the difference between searching and operating well and the difference between creating your own little your own little Universe where you're you're a lone actor um you can control everything in in you're only limited by your own self-discipline versus having to impose that discipline on everyone else um well let's just let's just double click on this a little bit what so so and kind of another way of putting this sounds like is you're learning to be a manager of a large organization or you know largest organization over 100 people um so can can you just expand expand on what you just said is it kind of hard to get everybody on the same page or is it that people resist you know your ideas or is it that um communication is difficult when it's you know it's it's more than just a small room of people what what is it specifically that's difficult all of the above actually so one of the things that we've been trying to do is improve our HR and systems so I have a chief of staff she did this absolutely amazing project on um HR and retention and essentially her findings were that not only are we probably not hiring as well as we should be our process for hiring aren't a good our processes for um managing people while they're here probably aren't as robust as they should be um and to try to bring in new processes it's actually significantly more difficult than you would think whether it be making sure that 130 people know what the new processes are when not everyone checks every single email they get making sure that the process is actually are followed um you know when you bring in 50 new processes for different parts of the business I'm only one person I cannot manage 50 different processes on it on a daily basis and ensuring that those processes are policed properly is also equally as difficult and so over time you go back and you look and you think oh hold on that's not that's not how it should be done and that that is a real challenge but also quite exciting Alex I have to ask is um as you as you reflect on on this this year and a half plus that you've been in the business and in implementing all these new processes you know one of the themes in this world is the extent to which you put you in you you implement changes in the business that you acquired how much how soon Etc um is it you know do you think that you are is it possible that it's been challenging because you wanna you're so hungry to do so much um is it too much too soon or is it not really that this is just you know you you're sitting in a Sweet Spot it's just the nature of change is that it's really hard and slow moving I it is that one there's a search who comes into company you want to do there's a huge amount that you want to achieve and you have this end goal and you want to achieve it so I think there's that and I'll come back to that in a second second I think that companies are very slow moving my third point is that actually changes um that sometimes you don't even know what needs to be changed and so this I think this is actually really interesting when I first came to the business I decided I was you know sorry I decided I was going to save us lots of money gonna go through our costs and work out why our margin have been coming down a bit and before the acquisition and so I decided I was gonna um renegotiate our telephone bill and I spoke to Jim Sharp who's um one of my investors very early on and I think I mentioned last time he has an absolutely great website and he said um to me he's like don't be the idiot that comes along and renegotiates the telephone bill and thank you but you think you've achieved a lot and I thought do I tell him do I not tell him I've done that and I think that's a problem I think you come to the business I think the key issue is as a Searcher you come to the business and you think I've done my due diligence I know everything there is to know and these are the 30 changes I'm going to make you come to the business and you realize this business is not the business that you thought you bought it's you know it's still going to be really great and it still is you know it's it's there's still a lot you can do with it but the things I think you you and ultimately do are very different however that said I think to your I think you you make two really really key points that one I think as a Searcher you want to make lots and lots of changes and so I know that my impulse as you can probably tell from how quickly I talk is to try and do as many things as possible all at the same time and so whether it be today writing a bid whether it be today um thinking about our green session thinking about our online strategy thinking about our end of month finances there's so much that you just want you want to do and actually not only am I just one person but building that sort of momentum among among staff who who are just incredible think about work incredibly different to us is very very difficult um and then that leads to the second point which is you know my desire for change is very different to probably a lot of people you know when you when you've disc these companies often that you often buy can be they're in many ways they can be lifestyle businesses and I don't think workpiece has ever been a lifestyle business but I think people treat often these business can be slightly slow moving she said and I think change is very different in our industry to what it's like in banking private Equity consulting which is where most people come from you came from a very kind of traditionally High Caliber environment and I want to make you feel uncomfortable or flatter you but you mentioned it you mentioned it on your previous episode you know Harvard Business School um great you're fortunate enough to have a great education in the UK um investment banking at the highest you know so kind of really operating at the highest levels and and I think people who come from that environment are just used to being surrounded by people who are similarly motivated similarly ambitious similarly capable um and then to to maybe be in an environment where everybody Isn't So type a um results in a culture Clash is is there an element of that here I spoken to a lot of Searchers who say something very similar and I think that underestimates how amazing the staff are are in every single company and I think that is there an underlying assumption there that staff are are unambitious lazy or don't really care and I'm not saying that's what you're saying but I often I I think what the way I try to think about it is actually um our roles it's that people have different incentives and this is what someone said to me this last week is that people in Investment Banking are scared always permanently scared they're going to lose their job are incredibly insecure and therefore are willing to work until midnight four in the morning or whatever it is to try you know to to succeed and I think actually the people that in a lot of the companies that are acquired by search funds have very different impulses I think they're probably equally as ambitious but their ambition might be about work it might be about family but in in many ways they're also not being you know that they don't have that they probably don't have that same Financial incentive that a lot of us used to have pre-doing a search fund to do really well um and I think it's about actually understanding that I think is more important than thinking about this sort of culture clash and one of the things I was actually thinking about before today was have I been more Changed by work things or has work pays I think that is the whole point of research on this to bring those two cultures together so I don't think it's more of a clash I think it's more of like a meshing very interesting Alex and and as you ask yourself this question did you just answer it that that workpaces it has um influenced you and vice versa or has has one influenced the other more did you come to a conclusion well on good days I'd like to say that it's equal on bad days I'd say that I made no change whatsoever to work days and it's so it has it's barely moved since I got here but no I'd like to hope that we do have a very the culture is I have tried to change our culture in some ways so whether we think about you know making sure we have proper structures in place as I mentioned hiring I mentioned um any other process I've been trying to put these in place so that right rather than being acting like it's a company of 20 people we act like the company of 130 people that we are and we have those similar processes in place that I would have seen in in any in any other place I've worked Alex one of the things on this point of of change and in Searchers coming in and and trying to quote un improve processes is one of the reasons to to kind of pump the brakes and do it slowly is because you know you'll come in you'll think that you know process X is broken or inefficient and then you'll learn six months later after you've really immersed yourself in the business for a lot longer oh there is a method to the madness this process looks this way for a very very good reason and if I had changed that process I would have broken x y and z um is how has that has that played a role at all or some of the processes that you've wanted to change uh actually already you know the way they should be a hundred and no no no 100 that's right and actually and why change has been slower um than I expected It's really because I've tried my best to dig deep down into what the issues are so rather than making an issue and rather than saying seeing on the surface this might be an issue and trying to make a really rash decision what I try to do is do a really deep dive it's why we have that's why I brought on a chief of staff and why she's and she and I have been working together on our HR project we did a um a curriculum review as well to think about how we place ourselves in the future and I think actually to your point that many things are done really well at the moment but what we're trying to understand is you know where aren't things done well and I think you were totally right is that I I always come up with five hypotheses but I'm never gonna and then five and then ten probably different ways to solve those issues I found but most of the time of those five hypotheses you know two or three might be correct and others might not don't quote me because I probably can't think of something but uh I think that's that's what that's our general starting point by try and be slightly more analytical about it and I think the way a search fund Works which is where your contracts are so when you have these very State very stable recurring Revenue I think enables you to be slightly slower as well so you can be more methodical in your changes Alex it turns out we we both re-listened to your first episode this morning in preparation of of this uh interview did anything jump out at you or strike you as you as you listened to to your your younger self 16 months ago um talk about you know this business and your excitement for this business did anything um you know jump out at you as oh that was naive or oh no I'm still right about that it's it's nice to know that I was right 16 months ago about how things have unfolded anything that that you any reaction you had yeah um I mean one thing that stuck out to me was I said that I think work pays is the best company in the world and I still believe that I believe that for very very different reasons to what I believed it then um but I still believe that work pays is an absolutely amazing company and has the power to change um people's lives the better I think probably at the time I was thinking this is a great platform from which we can become you know Godzilla of our sector that's not what and I still believe that we I I still believe that that is possible I think the road is slightly more winding than I first believed there and so we spoke about this this but you know this buy and build strategy and we have yet to acquire a company we've come we actually came we came very close in the last couple of months um but it's you know I thought that was going to be a lot easier and I think things like that uh I think it's probably a bit Mighty again well I we're gonna talk more about that um I was gonna ask about that so I'm glad you touched on it but before we do you've now said kind of two different ways a similar thing which is you said a few minutes ago the business you thought you were buying is different than the business you actually bought and what you now just said is that um you you still think it's the best company in the world but for for different reasons so same theme what was different about work pays then you you saw as an outsider trying to acquire the business yeah I actually don't know if the company is very different from what the day before sorry from what I thought it was going to be the day before the city before I quoted the day after I think what has happened with work pays is that we have grown from being a 40 person company about six months before I joined to an 80 month person an 80 person company but the day I joined to 130 to 140 today that is a huge amount of change and I think that it's there that all our issues lie and so and and my co-md she always says you know what I used to know everyone when I came here barely even 20 people yeah I knew everyone's I knew everyone's name I knew their kid's name I knew that any of their kids I said any of their their Partners names and their birthdays we go into meetings now and we'll often meet people and we'll be like oh it's nice to see you in regular weather actually I saw you a week ago and I think that is I think when you when you experience that much growth I think that has that has a huge impact on the company and we've seen impacts in many in in so many different ways I talk a lot about HR but I can also talk about our finances I can talk about absolutely everything and even the culture so you know I spoke on the on the the last school we had about uh work piece being a family and we are re we are so Keen to ensure that it is still a family but when you were 140 people um some of whom will will never ever meet one another um because we just we just work in so many different regions that can be very difficult um and when you need to put more hierarchy in place and better structures in place that also then becomes a lot more difficult um so no I don't think it's so much that workpiece is very different I think it's I I'm I personally underestimated the challenge that such big growth would bring and let me just make sure I understand so under your ownership it's grown from 80 to 140 I wish um so actually um we won some new contracts while um we were under Loi and so as a result and we've staffed up those contracts so not this not unfortunately I wish it was because of the work that I had done but it's not oh okay but but the the increase in head count did occur while like after after you took ownership so you were the owner co-managing director when it went from 20 to 140 yeah so that's what is that 60 75 percent increase in in people yeah that's you know and what I would say about that Alex is like um that actually seems like a a separate a challenge that doesn't necessarily have to do with search any business even to start from scratch business that goes from 80 to 140 people you'll hear any any entrepreneur or leader of a business that experiences that much growth in a relatively short amount of time say what you just said that you know I used to know everybody now I don't and we used to be like a family and now it's feels less like a family and we're really trying to keep hold on to that so um not not certainly not to belittle it but I'm not sure that that's actually um a specific to the story here yeah I think that's 100 right but I think as first CSA so I think I underestimated the challenge that would bring him I think secondly as someone who's barely managed five people six people beforehand suddenly coming to an organization where you're thinking I need to think about how we manage 130 people is a huge and thank goodness it's normally and and of most of the operational stuff so actually it's yeah she looks after a lot of this but actually thinking about how you deal with that problem and the problems that that hiring that many more people can then bring is is really tough yeah well let's hear a little bit more about Anne she is your so managing director is the title correct yeah we're both managing directors forgive me is that um how is that different than president or CEO is that just kind of a different phrasing in the UK versus the US pretty much no exactly so president I don't think we use the term president um the reason why we didn't go for CEO was because you've I very you very rarely see co-ceos so I thought it might be weird to have two CEOs but two MDS may seem to make more sense okay okay um so you have this managing director this co-managing director in an in World Equity so she has some of the business she was also the kind of second and second in command Lieutenant under the previous owner founder Helen who was kind of a very well-known and respected person in the industry um so that's kind of Anne's backstory how has it gone as a co-managing director your relationship with her because I would say that that obviously that could be a one too many cooks in the kitchen um so how's that gone really really really well we you know Ann is this friend is as much as much as a colleague and I think that's really important and one of the things that I think one of the things maybe and I don't know whether it's like this but other people who have this similar situation I don't think that there is any politics between us and I think that's really important and maybe and I think in every every company that you're in there's lots of politics but I think when you're right at the top you don't you know you don't see the politics and I think we are lucky that even though we are together there is no politics we have the same unified goal which is to get work pays to wherever we want to get it to and I think we are 100 brought into that and we understand each other's role very well yes I think there are times when there is pressure and we put I think we put pressure on one another but I think we both we have incredibly similar personalities and feel the pressure in the same way um and you get going back to what I'm saying about our roles being slightly split so and focuses on operations and operational strategy and I focus on growth and growth strategy however we both are very unified so I will often you know I have a call with and our two Ops directors every single week with Anne where we go over our figures um and where we've been looking at Acquisitions I will always do the first few calls and is the one who can really ask the proper DD question so she will go in there and she'll have like the six hour meeting or the day-long meeting with this with the team to really drill down to work out how we can best fit that company into workbase it sounds wonderful and relatively harmonious which is really the best you can ask for um did you get Lucky in and or did you kind of diligence in when you were diligencing the larger business very good question um no I gotta be really honest I didn't actually um and perhaps I should have done um I I think to I don't want to play with my own my own trumpet but I think I'm I think I can do one-on-one relationships pretty well I'm pretty when I go to a party I'm always a person who's right in the corner of the room who doesn't really want to talk to anyone Lord just hope that I can hear don't have to drink much and then can go home by 8pm um but the second if I have a one or one-on-one I think I I can do significantly better and is actually well she's quite good at both um and what what we did do however is in in advance in of the acquisition we had I had at least one weekly call with Helen and Dan together but we also had a weekly session together just Anne and um just Anne and I to discuss um strategy post acquisition so we actually wrote a whole post acquisition strategy document together that formed part of the um investment man running that we gave to investors and also guides a lot of what we do today so I think in many ways yes there was that priest there was that pre-interview um but I don't in fans I think they were probably in and was probably interviewing me more than than I was interviewing her well whether or not you're doing it with a lot of kind of diligence intentionality if and if you felt that the chemistry was off with Anne or you didn't like her that would have surfaced during that process and you would have addressed it or walked away or whatever so 100. and I will say so when I am um not the I'm really I'm very British and very very awkward and when I first met Anne because because I was stuck in America I actually couldn't meet um Anne and Helen until literally the last minute and I came back to um I came back to the UK I went to Derby to where I was staying for a few days to finally meet them and finish the deal um or complete the deal and and come to collect me from the house that I was renting and she gives me the biggest hug and I think that just like sums her up and I think it was from that moment you realize actually I think we're gonna be fine okay let's get into um just a few more minutes here Alex but let's get into a couple um specifics Dynamics about the business itself that um that we touched on in the first interview and I just want to follow up on them first of all so as just to to uh reiterate what you said at the top you uh work pays is in the business of using um winning contracts from the government and deploying that money into helping people get jobs and then upskill once they're in jobs essentially right there there were three sectors I just named two but that's kind of the spectrum more or less um and you had the business had really strong performance metrics there are some kpis in this world and just because I took notes as I listened re-listened to it this morning the industry average is like 64 of people going through a program like uh work pays will um complete it so sorry kind of 36 attrition you all were at 89 well above the industry average really an impressive number um where's that number today um so this year I think we're pretty high again I think we're in the 80s last year it was less good um so essentially it's actually been a really tough time for our industry um what has happened is that we have been hit by the worst of all worlds so companies like work they've actually workplace sorry specifically because we have our fingers in mini pies we do really well not only when the economy is doing really badly so that we can help um those people who've lost their jobs or we're looking for jobs to find one but also when the economy is doing really well so that companies can give us money to upskill their workers Workforce however we are in a situation where we have a really abysmal upon economy and yet we have the lowest unemployment we've had in 50 years and so that has had a massive impact not only on us but the entire industry now it doesn't whether or not I can tell you stories about how we believe that we are outperforming the industry um or that we are up forming the industry what that has meant is that some of our numbers have come down or the number of people starting on our program have come down in particular to apprenticeships which is what what we're talking about here and as a result um you know a couple of people leaving can then lower your number from the high 80s to let's say the 70s or 60s yeah well with the dynamic you describe um is the same over here uh you know kind of limping economy but but very very tight uh labor market so it's a it's a apparently a very unusual uh dynamic macroeconomic dynamic two other questions I want to I'll save the um buy and build uh one for second first your one of the things we talked about in a business like this you know the your first reflex is oh customer concentration you know the government is your your customer and the way that you explained that away to to yourself and to me and it made sense is that in fact yes technically the government is your sole customer but you're you're you're soliciting you're bidding on contracts from a number of different agencies so yes with So within the government you're very Diversified in terms of the agencies that you're you're getting contracts from correct that is that that is correct and has that and is that was the way you explain that to yourself um is that born out yes and I can't remember if I said this as well that the UK is one of the most you know our our politics are some of the most stable in the world and I say that as of January 2022 when we last spoke and I say that you know even I think I said even with brexit you know we had one blip in 2016 and thank goodness we have a very stable government well we last since we last vote we've had three prime ministers one of whom didn't Outlast the lettuce which is I don't know if you've heard about that in the US um so it's that has had an impact on us so the so while I still believe I still believe that that actually we have many different players we have you know and actually they've expanded it now they're they're doing I don't know they they have they're devolving a lot of the power so from the central government to local government and even like on a very very very small level they're developing powers and so we have a lot more people who are paying us and we've just won a lot of contracts from very very local governments to the sort of people who remove your bins as well will also be paying us for some of the things that we are doing however because of the huge amounts of instability that we've seen in UK politics in the last year and I've been a year and a half or last year actually and that has had an impact on the amount of funding that is available so what that has meant is is that you know the EU and the EU funds ended in March um this year and we we were always under the impression that the government was going to replace them like for like that's what the government said it said actually not only that it was going to invest more money in lots of different programs that was the whole point of brexit however because of this instability you know they they haven't actually brought yet the four of the funds yet to replace the EU funds and that is when I thought about this as part of the acquisition I just never thought that was going to happen because we are helping the most vulnerable people in society and so we help these people who are known as needs not in educational employment or training they you know with if we don't support them the chances are that they will be they won't just be unemployed for the short term they'll be very long-term unemployed and that will have an impact in our economy for years and years so we simply didn't believe the government wouldn't do anything however given the political instability that's unfortunately what's happened so would that be any different if we were in a really poor economic environment and we were trying to get more commercial clients no I didn't really think so um but there's one Department that controls her strings maybe that does have an impact okay it but the growth that we talked about from the 80 to 140 you said that was for contracts that had been secured prior to your tenure and you were just Staffing up to meet those contracts so that all of that all of those that pipeline for you is basically before this instability happened oh yeah this constant pipeline so we you know we are constantly winning new con we are constantly winning new contracts we have an absolutely amazing um bid writer we call him our dog our director of growth um we've won a lot of contracts I actually spent half the day today um working on a bid and the finances for one of our bids which is the first time I've done it normally Anne does that um but you know we are constantly we are constantly winning new bids it's just the amount of money available has gone down because it simply hasn't been released yet but we know that probably no at latest March next year but probably November this year the more funds will be released okay okay so the the the pie if you will has shrunk a little bit but there's still a lot of pie there and as long as you're one of the strong performers in the industry there's no reason to think that you will not continue to at least not only be stable but grow yeah no exactly and we have seen we've actually so we we a lot of our contracts had a dip as I said because of the underperformance and now we are we are getting to the stage where we actually don't think that we have enough money left in our contracts um and that we are thinking who can we take who can we ask to give us more money to fulfill our contracts so yes no we're doing um we're doing okay and I'm not worried and I would say that it's not that the pie has shrunk the pie has temporarily had a slice taken out of it and that's like someone's gonna put that slice back in good good clarification uh actually Alex actually one other question occurs to me before that we get to the growth requisition question the the work one of the things that you were really motivated by in this business was the the end result and the end benefit that you're delivering which is helping people who um basically find employment and people who are maybe kind of right at the margins um not go in the wrong direction or not fall off the labor market altogether and as a somebody who's only ever been in kind of the for-profit world um I I know very little about entities that are trying to basically help people but I feel like what I have heard is that there's a lot of idealism when you are from the outside looking in and then you get in see how the sausage is made and it can be disillusioning no entity no non-profit or or for the for the larger good entity is is you know as clean or works as well as you want it to you um are you just as idealistic about work pays and and results it delivers as you were as an outsider firstly I'm gonna say I'm gonna say a couple of things so one when I tell I I find it very difficult to say I am you know it's to praise myself and so I what I will say is that what pays does absolutely incredible work I think I said that already on this chat um absolutely nothing to do with me and I was very well aware of that going on that actually while I might be trying trying to steer the ship in One Direction or the other ultimately the people who are doing the most important work at work pays not me it's our tutors our key workers our engagement brokers who are supporting people to get the skills they need and supporting people to get the job so that's the first thing so has my idealism changed about any of that no I still don't do any work that does it comes anywhere near as close to the amazing work that those people do that said um I think the people who do become um disillusioned actually are those right at the front and I think we do see that and I think our industry has very famously very very high turnover um and that is because people come into a job like this they think like you said that they're going to be helping people and then they think well hold on this company is putting lots of kpis on my back why is that um this doesn't seem how is this helping and how is this helping the people you know the unemployed people I'm supposed to be supporting and actually key for me um and key is part of what we're doing as HR is actually to to ensure that people actually understand that the reason why you have these targets is because it's not about the fact that you're making us profit or you're making the company profit what you're actually doing is supporting those people into work so when we say how many times have you met these people what you know what happened what are you what support are you giving them and what what training are you giving them to get a job we're not we're not doing that because this gets us five pounds that gets us 12 pounds or whatever we're doing it because actually we believe that can help people and I think again it's like there's you're meshing the the good work that you do has to be based on um hard like on hard action and I think ensuring that people understand that I think is really really important one thing I will say is and is that I re I remain really idealistic about what we can achieve at work days um one of the things that I become really interested in recently is this like kind of evil of automation I say the evil of automation obviously don't think it's evil but more I think the impact that that is going to have on 40 of the workforce or more who simply won't have a job and actually it's many of the people that we are supporting or or and the kind of jobs that a lot of people we're supporting might go into their jobs are going to be automated so that I do worry about however we are putting a lot of effort into becoming a green focused company so we're trying to make sure that our curriculum is very very green focused we have something called projects age and so I remain very idealistic about our ability to change people's lives and also about what we can achieve for both the UK and for both through people and the UK economy The Wider economy okay let's talk uh dive in now to just the the buy and build so you you had this um aspiration that it seemed like an industry I mean the the classic thing that many Searchers see somewhat fragmented this seemed um work pay seemed like a great platform uh acquisition and you who actually I think one of your investors was was a little bit skeptical about it if I already said this forgive me was a little bit skeptical of that by the time we were speaking and you were you were only four months into the acquisition you were starting already to feel like maybe that investor knew something you didn't you were starting to see how it it might be hard sounds like 16 months later um you're really realizing that it's hard talk us through all that yeah so well first I want to point out it was it wasn't an investor at someone it was one of the people one of the few people I met who didn't want to invest in oh okay with my my business so I was going to put that up there so actually it's not one of my investors my investors are all fully on board with uh an acquisition strategy um and our board is really really on board with it as well um how is it going and so how is it going and why have we not acquired a business today so actually I think what I mentioned in the cool last time was that difficult because doing a search while running a business while you're you know you're trying to build up your BD Department while you're trying to build up your marketing farmers and your finance department and I talk about process quite a lot but making sure that you have you know accounts done properly that takes a lot of work and so when you say to a Searcher and there's a way you take to a business owner I can talk to you but it's gonna have to be at 8pm get a lot of no's actually and so really my ability to put that work in is is quite curtailed and I was very appreciative of that pretty early on knowing that I need to I need to I need to um secure this first before we start thinking about bringing others on board and so that's that's the first thing we have recently started to ramp up that in the last probably six months to eat no probably almost about a year actually we've been working really hard at looking for another um for a bolt-on we have that we know Ann and I know exactly what we want to get um but we've had a few sort of kind of almost right or almost got there but then failed and so recently for example one of the things we want to do is we have a whole strategic plan and part of that is to be a niche apprenticeship provider and part of that is to be a green focused as a green Focus apprenticeship writer or a green focused um providerable skills and so we found this absolutely amazing company in one of the areas that we're really excited about going into and we took things probably we were probably a bit too slow about it and as a result the deal kind of the sellers got a bit nervous right before the end but um no it's going the reason I use that as an example so I think it's going well it's slightly tougher and slower than I thought and as I said at the on the last time we spoke time kills deals and yeah that is something that I'm definitely noticing yeah well when you talk about you need to secure this ship before you know you can really become acquisitive I guess tightening up things within the organization but it also just sounds like freeing your time so getting things in place where you can find another six hours in your day to devote yourself to it yeah yeah that one one um I spent researcher very soon after um acquiring workpiece and he said oh so you must be really bored and I said well what do you mean he said well like every Searcher you have um you must just be doing nothing all day because there's no work for you to do and I'm thinking I'm working every day until midnight I don't know what I don't know who you're talking to and I think that I think what you're saying is exactly right um and it's actually about putting you know the one my last lesson of business school taught me something I thought was super interesting which is the best boss is the one who when they walk away the company is fine and I think about that a lot and that is exactly what I want to achieve a workplace if I could be on a beach in oh I don't know in in the ferry somewhere enjoying my life wouldn't that be ideal and actually I think if I can do that while owning workplace it's not what I'm trying to do because I don't think it's I'm that personality but if I can I will believe that I have succeeded at work days and I think exactly to your point that making sure that we've got things right is incredibly important and one more thing I will say because I don't want to give the impression that work days is doing badly it's not it's it's not a tool the first year you know I had these goals that we were going to get to certain million of ebitda and we didn't get there and I spoke to some of my investors to you know not to broach the newsletter but basically say this is how it's going I speak to my investors probably I speak to a different investor every couple of weeks um and one person said to me and it just it made me I almost I honestly have never I'm not normally this emotional but one investor said to me oh yeah my first two years we called them my blue years because um my wife and I just said she's like you just used to come home so I'm I'm happy so you just come home quite unhappy and and he said that is normal for when you're doing a search it's these first it's your first six months are honeymoon the next year and a half after that is just day after day after day of struggle and I think that is not only I think what iron experienced for what I've seen lots of people experience which then makes it more difficult to achieve those really heady goals that you had before you applied the company but and and but and but why so the first six months sure like so transitioning is hard but what happens in the next year and a half is it just dis like when when when when when dream meets reality in reality it's just a lot messier than than you thought it was going to be and so it's disappointing and frustrating for the next 18 months what why is this such a uniform pattern across Searchers yeah I think there are a couple of things so one again it's like you buy this company and you think it's gonna be X but it's Y and they're all these issues so you don't you they're all these issues you don't even think about their issues it's not like it's not like you didn't it's not like had you done your DD you would have found out about this you just you just you just it's you there are issues that as an owner you are able to um that if you've been in owner of a business I think for 10 years you were able to you're equipped to deal with so Ann and Helen are very well equipped or Helen was and and is very well equipped to deal with a lot of the multitude of issues that come up I simply I'm not and that is a that is a key point for searches the second thing is and I think that is the second point it's you it's you are simply making 80 printable decisions around and and Jim Sharp says this on his website he says do not do not underestimate how many bad decisions you are going to make whether it be a hiring decision whether it be a a poor decision in a meeting and I think actually HR can be one of the most difficult parts for example of and by HR I don't mean the process I'm talking about I'm talking about how I'm managing people and understanding that and and I remember very early on made some comments about that it really actually quite helpful constructive comments which I'm not sure she'll probably even remember about trying to give me advice about it and I think you make so many mistakes and that weighs on you and it's not like you know when you're doing even when you're doing banking if you go home at four in the morning at least you go and sleep in your job you know you don't you you can sleep till the next morning and you don't you don't really think about it for those four hours you're sleeping in my job not one day has gone by where I don't have a dream or a nightmare about workplace something going right something really wrong 100 and but I love it and but but workpiece is so much a part of my life and I carry the weight of work pays on my shoulders um you know my my partner says that uh um that there are three in our marriages there's you me and work days and perhaps that one of the issues um but and I think that I think that that is that is that is I think this that happens in the first year and a half is that you have the weight of this of this of you have something this huge weight on your shoulders and yet you are making decisions that negatively impacted and I think that's super interesting and you have to you do have to get your head around that sometimes and when you and then when you start making tougher decisions that you think are the right decisions it's about you know trying to be thrown about it which can also be tough fascinating thank you for that Alex I just want to call out um your partner saying that there that there's three of you in the relationship did did you did he either hear the thing that you're what your mom would say about your dad or or is that just a spooky coincidence because you said in our first interview that your mom would talk about or no somebody in your family would talk about how there were three children you your sister right and your dad's business because he was also a business owner um so there you go the the Apple doesn't far too it's all too far from the tree no that's exactly right yeah that's right um yeah no I'm exactly I am definitely my Father's son that's right and actually finally if he calls me up every day to give me advice about work days so pretty helpful mostly tax advice because he's a he's an accountant but you know I'll take whatever advice I can you had I believe mentioned a an eventual career in politics like later on has this experienced um informed that plan one way or the other said you know what that was my original plan when I left undergrad and it wasn't a plan for it has it was not in the cards for a very long time partly because I lived in America partly because I worked in um finance and I thought no it's just it's just not gonna happen working in this I mean honestly yes if I could have an impact on our country's policy and direction I would absolutely love that um and I'm not gonna I have honestly I have no idea I'm not trying to give a politician answer and be like you know maybe one day I I just I just have I just have no idea yes I would absolutely love that um this has made me so sure about the ways that you can make change and the ability to kind of to to impact that change so whether it be supporting small businesses whether it be the the impact of policy yeah no 100 I find that really really interesting and if I could support that I would love that but I think that's uh I think I'm getting old now last question for you Alex the we and we've touched on a lot of this already but I want to have you answer it directly and explicitly um throughout this journey so far what uh muscle have you built um what muscle has atrophy sounds like you've become a little bit better manager thanks to ant definitely well I'm a different manager I wouldn't say I'm a better manager but maybe I am a better manager thanks to Anne I'm a different manager I think when you go into a business often what happens is and I give this advice for a lot of um people who call me I say do not worry about whether people like you you want and or he says she said she's one of the first comments she's made to me she's like you just are too desperate for everyone to like you the problem is in your role no one is going to like you all the time and what you realize is two things that one people I think I think I've come significantly better understanding management um I don't know where I've become where I've become worse at probably my personal life has taken a massive hit because work pays is it's the first time ever that I've actually found it really exciting when I'm out of work to talk about my my job and I don't think anyone else agrees with that so I think that's probably to fight you worse but from a management point of view um you know I think in I noticed when I go into a room now at work people laugh significantly louder at my jokes and I'm not I'm just simply not a funny person and two people um I know that people are being rude about me behind my back because I you know you're the boss and you and sometimes things trickle through and and that is the way it is and there's nothing that I can do to change that however good a person or boss that I am to a friendly iron with them so actually the key thing you know workpiece has to come first and your management style has to has to remember that and I think Yes actually sorry there's a bit of a long-winded answer say yes I think my management style has got significantly um it's got it has changed a lot and I think I get a lot more done now than I did when I first came to work pays the result of it and this thing about wanting to be liked do you feel like you've kind of had to intentionally thicken your skin or just with the the slings and arrows of you know the day-to-day you just shed that need naturally and now you're just a hard ass and you don't care or or do you constantly have to remind yourself Alex don't care what people think work Pace comes first you know make this decision despite you know the questions of popularity you know you know what I mean is it yeah um a conversation with yourself or did you just grow the muscle where you don't care anymore I think I don't notice what people say actually or what people are thinking so it's not that people are rude to me and then I don't notice it and it's more that I don't I think I don't think I give as much time to that um and so but at the same time I do not believe that you can be a a good boss that nobody likes and so actually you know because if I were a boss that nobody likes all my staff would be leaving and I think and so that's not that's the whole issue in itself so actually making sure that your staff respect you and and at least like you somewhat I think it's obviously is actually is is still important but it's also about thinking again like you said work Pace comes first so I think there I think there is a fine balance I wouldn't say I'm like a cold horrible person and I go out with my staff and I talk to my I go out I will go out with my staff all the time we go for lunches we got four drinks um but remembering that you are the owner slash CEO MD it's really really important thing that you will know you know you're not probably they don't want to be your friend even though you know I wish they would at first yeah let's call it there Alex oh it's such a such a pleasure to to chat with you uh what what is your favorite way for people to to reach out to you sounds like um a lot of people have been doing so successfully how LinkedIn email what is it yep so I'm on LinkedIn Alex lastner and then my email is really easy it's Alex at workpiece that is it pays to work so workplace.com great all in the notes Alex thank you very much for coming back on really enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed that interview make sure you subscribe to the acquiring minds Channel below we are now publishing twice a week so tons of new interviews and stories to come stories that will help you along your own path to acquiring a business