All right, buckle up. Are you ready? I was struggling well before I had any sort of fame or success. Alcohol is not the problem. Alcohol was my solution to my problem until I hit a really big low and I knew I was going to die. Now I'm like, wow. It's so crazy to me to think that the most painful moments in my life were my biggest gift. But it got to the point where when I moved to LA and started finding success in acting, >> it was the biggest show in the world. But at the time, I didn't know that. No one wants to hear about an actor on a successful TV show struggling. I had to learn how to be in solitude. But if I zoom out, we do hold all the power. And we're taught that we don't. It all starts in your mind. You can't step into a new chapter when you're clinging on to a old one. It's uncomfortable, but obviously worth it. >> Hi, Lucy. >> Hi. >> So, it's been really fascinating to see your journey over the past few years, how you've been sharing your story so authentically. A lot of people know you as as a singer, as an actress, your work with Pretty Little Liars and beyond. And I've really just appreciated the insight you've given people into the ups and downs, the trials, the triumphs of all of your journey. And I'm just curious how, in your words, you describe the chapter of life you've been in the past few years. >> Yeah. I mean, talk about a pivot. I um never in a million years would have thought that I would be so at home with myself that I could have these conversations or that yeah, I guess that it would come so natural to me. I think the phase of life I'm in now, it I mean, it's definitely the most at peace I've ever felt. Um I'm not saying I'm 100% sure of who I am, but I'm really close to that. And I I feel like almost in ways my life is just starting. I think I I grew up really quickly. I mean, even before I moved to LA, I always felt like, you know, when people reflect on their childhood and there's a lot of happy, joyous memories, like I always felt very serious. I always felt like I was here to do something really important. And I think when I moved to LA and started finding success in acting, I was like, "Okay, that was the important thing that I needed to do." And then all of the important things kind of left me not feeling empty, but I always knew that there was more I was here to do. And I'm sure we'll talk about my journey with everything, but because of the series of events I've gone through, it really pushed me to get to know myself. And that means like knowing all parts of myself because I avoided it like it was my full-time job for a long time. And so I guess this chapter of life is me being me finally. Nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you, too. Your place is lovely. >> No, it's it's it's good to meet you in this moment, in this chapter of your life. Um, but I'm just curious to back up a bit because you mentioned this like innate sense of not like just seriousness, but like feeling like you're set for a path and that you had this big dream, these big dreams and ambitions from a young age. Do you what do you attribute that to, if anything? I mean, if you believe in past lives, I think it's definitely tied into my karma. Um, I I think I've always felt very in tune with like reading the room and I've always had like big emotions and I always I don't know if everyone feels this way, but I've always just felt like I I was experiencing life on this like intense level and I didn't really know why. Like I I would always tell my mom when I was struggling with certain things, I would always explain it as like this just feels so old and and I so I definitely believe it has to do with other lifetimes. And um yeah, and just coming to terms with that. And I forget the other part of the question you just asked, but but I do I mean, long story short, I equate it with um a past life and just like what my soul really came here to do. >> It's interesting because it seems like, and I've heard you spoke to many times, how this like innate sense of sensitivity and how you feel things very deeply. And I think anybody who's in the arts innately like the work is being connected with yourself and how you feel and >> there can be that but then also a level of intensity that we don't know how to deal with for whatever reason and >> your journey through sobriety which is like almost four years now right? >> Almost. Yeah. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> What was that like and what was alcoholism and these difficulties that you were experiencing? What was it solving for you? All right, buckle up. Are you ready? Um, I think a lot of people assume my drinking escalated because I'm a Hollywood actress, right? Like, it sounds like such a cliche, but I was struggling well before I had any sort of fame or success. Like, I I like my early experiences drinking were always negative. They were always bad. I look back and all of the signs were there. And I also had voices in my head growing up from people in my family telling me that alcoholism runs in my family. And I'm sure you've talked to a lot of people that like if we believe something, it's going to come true. So, I'm not saying that it's not in my blood. It might be, but it also was kind of lurking around me my entire life. um you know and then moved to LA and was living on my own quite young and growing up quickly and booked Pretty Little Liars and started finding success and was on top of the world and I had everything I thought I wanted and and I wasn't happy. I wasn't as fulfilled as I thought I would be. And so I think initially alcohol was fun for me because it shut off my brain. I could go out and I felt like I could just be myself or be a version of myself that I thought was more fun or more acceptable. Um so I think it actually started because it eased my social anxiety a little bit. Um and I've always kind of had this thing where I wanted everyone to look at me and if people would look at me I'd be like why are you looking at me? So, it was kind of like I couldn't quite figure out who I was. I had no identity. And mind you, I was young, but I think alcohol was like this gave me superpowers, I felt like. And and then it just progressively got darker and worse and worse. And you know, and even when people would tell me how I would behave or how bad things went, I wouldn't care at first because I kind of thought I was invincible for a lot of my life. Um, and it was like a good friend to me. Alcohol really felt like a friend to me. I know that sounds ridiculous to say out loud, but it it was the only thing I had found that gave me some sort of mental peace. Um, and you know, a lot of things have happened. I mean, we'd be here all day if I told you the entire journey, but um, I went through many phases of trying to get help. um many phases. I mean, and this is spanning the course of like 12 years. Um because it got to a point many times in my 20s where it was a little bit dangerous and I had a couple of wakeup calls where I was like, I feel like I need to change my life, but I just wasn't ready. And and I wasn't ready to give it up. I wasn't ready to give up this friend I found in alcohol. Um because I knew that I if I got sober, it wasn't even really giving up alcohol. It was that I was going to have to finally confront myself and confront things that really brought a lot of pain. I was going to have to confront my thing, my pain essentially. And uh yeah, I mean alcohol is sneaky I think for a lot of people. I mean it's everywhere. It's a lot of people can drink moderately and socially and normally. And I always want to make it clear like alcohol is not the problem. Alcohol was my solution to my problem. And um until it wasn't until I I realized, you know, almost 4 years ago, I hit a really big low and I knew I was going to die. I mean, very very simply put, like I knew if I didn't change my life, not only was I going to lose everything, like that was obvious to me. I had already started to lose things and I had projected my pain onto other people for so long. Um, but it got to the point where like I kind of had a spiritual intervention and knew that if I didn't really take it seriously, like it would be it wouldn't be great. So, um I think that was initially your question of what alcohol did for me. It >> it just eased my mind and I still deal with that. Like I >> my mind is loud a lot of the time and >> and that's not really unique to me, but I've had to really get clever on how to kind of use all the mental energy I have because I have a lot of it. But like, and I also think my tolerance for discomfort is a lot higher because that normally I' I'd get uncomfortable and the first thing I'd reach for is like a way to numb out or escape. So, >> and I still do that in other ways through like social media or whatever. Like, we all have ways that we numb out, but >> I'm definitely on a better track. >> So, if you like overview kind of like a timeline of when did you f how old were you when you first booked Pretty Little Liars, like your first big gig? So, my first big gigs I I booked when I was 18, but Pretty Little Liars I booked when I was almost 20. >> Okay. >> And I Yeah. >> And that was like an 8year journeyish. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I could just it's so hard to I guess have context for what it means to be growing up as a young person in their early 20s >> and like figuring out your own identity amidst a sea of projections and >> a society that expects a certain thing from a from a young woman and >> did you feel like that pressure added to your sense of dysregulation that led you kind of to seek these different coping mechanisms? It definitely didn't help. But, you know, if I zoom out, there's no doubt in my mind like my soul had that planned for me, right? Like, I don't think it's accidental that I fell into a career space that's going to make it really hard to be mentally and emotionally healthy because I know so many people who struggle in this way or have struggled in this way. And and even for people who aren't in my industry, like society, what we read, what we watch, social media, there's just so much out there that disregulates us and pulls us further from who we inherently are. Um, but yeah, I mean, making a lot of money young, being on a very popular TV show, um, while trying to figure out who you are while struggling with alcoholism. Like, it was kind of a perfect storm. Um, but I mean, it was all I knew. I didn't I I definitely knew my life was a little different than the people around me. Like I I always had awareness of how bad my drinking was. Like I was never naive to it. I just didn't want to stop because I didn't want to face myself. But now I feel like there's such a shift with alcohol in general. Maybe it's just cuz I've grown up and I'm sober, but it feels like people are examining their relationship to it more. I think people just want to feel better. And I think that that's that's amazing. And and now it's easy to be in my industry and not drink. Like I love going to an event or a party and like connecting with a few people and then being like, "Bye." Like I know my time to exit. Um, but I really, you know, I look back at my younger self and it could have gone a lot worse and I know I really was doing my best even when it looked really bad and looked really chaotic and it was so painful. Like I didn't even there were like mornings I just like I was like how do I actually get through the day? I would just be paralyzed with anxiety and depression. Um, but I did it and you know I know that that's not just because of me. I know I've had support from, you know, my whole team up there. I I definitely didn't get through it by myself and, you know, the people in my life as well have been such pillars of strength for me. >> You mentioned that there was one or potentially many like rock bottom moments where it was very pivotal and like something absolutely has to change. M >> what was the moment where it actually like you really believed that knew that and you changed your behavior like >> Yeah. >> What was the if there was one? >> Yeah. I mean, there were so many um not little moments, they were big moments of whether whether it be ruining a relationship that really meant a lot to me or hurting someone that meant a lot to me or losing out on a job or like there's so many moments like that that I think definitely were pushing me towards making the decision. But I mean the the time when I got sober, it was January almost 4 years ago. I like nothing really massive or bad happened, but it was just I had like sobered up and was flying home and just had this knowing that I had like one more try. It it wasn't even this is the right space to talk about it. I like heard a voice in my head and which I guess was God or my higher self or you know my angels whatever. Um and they I heard you you were giving you another another choice because there were so many moments when I truly didn't know how I was coming out of these situations. Okay. Um, and I heard that voice. I got home. I started a program and I stuck to it and I never looked back. And when I tell you I've never even thought about drinking again. And it's it it doesn't mean I don't work at it. It doesn't mean that I've like bypassed my pain. I've really had to take a good look at myself and the things I've been through and my patterns and I've I dove in. I dove in. But because of it's almost like there was a spiritual exchange where I was like, "Okay, I'm going to I'm going to change my life around." It's almost like the need for alcohol went away. >> I've never even I haven't even been close to to drinking again. And that to me is a miracle. It's a miracle because I had relapsed hundreds of times. Hundreds of times. And so it didn't make sense to me that like physiologically that could just shift. Um which is great. It's been a great trade-off. >> So do you just attribute that to like the right time, the right place when it needed to happen? Because >> Mhm. >> like the peaks and troughs, the ups and downs of people like battling their own addictions for whatever reason like there was that moment when you actually were able to make the difference. And >> yeah, I think I was just ready. I think I was finally ready. And you know, I know a lot of people who've >> gotten sober the first time and they've been sober 20 years. And that's amazing. Like that is possible. But a lot of people I know relapse is a huge part of their story. And I think that it's important if for anyone that's listening that is dealing with this, like my relapses actually made me a lot stronger. Like I remember when it would happen in my early 20s and I would just be like drowning in shame that I had, you know, gone down this path again. But then I now I look back at each of those moments and it just like gave me so much resilience. Like I feel like now because of all of that, I feel like anything could come my way and I know I could handle it. And I know that I can handle it sober and clear-headed. And also sobriety to me isn't just about substance. Sobriety is like owning your you know? It's like emotionally going deep. It's holding yourself accountable. It is like in certain programs they say like cleaning up your side of the street. It's really like knowing who to apologize to. It's it's like fact-checking your life every day and going, "Okay, how can I try this better tomorrow?" And it's taught me a lot about self-compassion and self-love and self-respect. So, I don't even really like to use the word sober because there's so much that comes along with that as well. And I don't love labels these days. I feel like they can be really limiting. I just choose not to drink alcohol or take drugs because I want to feel my best. I want to show up my best every single day. I want to fulfill my purpose and I just have so much more there's so much more meaning in my life now and I wouldn't give that up for anything. >> Talk to me about that. what's like okay >> your your your connection with yourself like at this at this point because >> it's one thing that can be really hard to try to stop bad behaviors but when you replace it with things that are really supporting your connection with yourself and then the relationships that nourish nourish them and the accountability systems >> um that lead you to the point where you feel like you're really happy with the trajectory you're on the path that you're on feels like it this is a lot more in alignment with with you Um, so two parts. One is like what are those practices? What are those things that you kind of instilled like since going sober? >> And then talk to me to like how do you feel? Like how do you feel now? >> Okay. So the practices and things that I do. I mean I definitely went through a phase where >> and I think this is also why I put off getting sober for so long. I knew that my life was going to have to completely shift. Everything was going to have to change. It was like new environments, new people, new thought patterns, everything. Because if I kept hanging around the same people or going to the same places, like you are who you surround yourself with. So I knew that I was going to have to do some deep house cleaning, if you will. And so there was and I'm still kind of in that, but but more so with like my beliefs and patterns and things that are so ingrained in me from when I was like a kid. I'm still like fine-tuning all that. But um so initially it was that it was like okay I really want to surround myself with people who leave me better. I want to make them feel better and I want the people in my life to uplift my life. Um and I have that I have really my my circle is small but I have really great friends. Um I had to I mean honestly the I guess you could call it a practice. I had to learn how to be in solitude because I your girl can distract. I can distract like no other. I can spend money. I can be on my phone. I can whatever. Like I And I I've had to learn how to be okay being uncomfortable, pausing, not always reacting. I can be a very reactive person because that gives me some sense of control. Um, and if I don't have control, I feel, you know, crazy. But yeah, I think it's just, you know, of course there's like meditation and and all the things. And I and I do those. I do I have a prayer practice and a meditation practice. Um, but really I've found the most growth um when I'm confronted with a challenge or a conflict with someone because I I do believe that it's a internal what do they call it like inside out world. So like if I'm being confronted with something that's really intense, I know that that's just a reflection of something that I'm dealing with. And so I think it's just like drowning out the noise and just and getting more in tune with my intuition. And that looks different for everyone, but for me it really is I need time alone. Um because my life I'm surrounded by a lot of things a lot of the time and there's no possible way for me to know how I actually feel until I kind of like quiet all that out. Um, but I'm also in the point, and I guess this ties into your second question, I keep seeing these things online where it's like the most spiritual thing you can do is have fun. Cuz I always thought that if I got my life together and I got sober that I was going to be this really boring person. And I still have to fight that sometimes where I'm like, "Oh, do people like hanging out with me? Am I fun? Am I do they think I'm boring?" But that's just a limiting belief that I have. And I am in a place in my life where I am h being like more silly and going to do fun things. And I feel like living a a joyous life, that's where you attract everything. Like that's where you're going to attract the right people and like from that sort of headsp space. You're going to attract the right jobs when you're like living from childlike joy. So, I'm trying to do that most of the time, and that looks different on a day-to-day basis. But these days, the thing is, I don't want to say I'm cursed with this, but like I always have the little monkey on my shoulder that I worry about a lot of things. And I don't necessarily, and I try not to label worry as bad because I think that worry is also my ambition and drive and it keeps me pushing me forward. Um, it can be really annoying at times. Sometimes I just want to it's like that phrase, ignorance is bliss, but like I chose this path and I'm always going to keep choosing myself and wanting to learn more and grow more and what comes with that is just kind of the little nagging monkey sometimes. But but overall these days I feel pretty grounded. I feel pretty happy and um and excited. I think there's also like I feel more inspired than I have in the last couple of years and I feel ready. And by that I mean I know I'm starting a new chapter of my life and I feel ready for that which is to be safe in my own body or to feel safe in my own body and my decisions and choices is just a really um calming feeling. How do you describe that distinction between like living from that place of childlike joy and and happiness which can have like more of a push and pull feeling? Like sometimes it's there, sometimes it eludes you. >> Yeah. Well, I think I've also learned that and I've always been this way like I have big feelings and big moods and it I don't want to call it like mood swings cuz it's not chaotic. It's not erratic. I mean, but like my mood really depends on the day. And I used to judge like if I was feeling low energy or sad, I would be really hard on myself and be like, well, you need to be happy. Like, why are you not happy? And that obviously doesn't work. That just makes you feel worse. Um, but I found a lot of peace in that actually, just like accepting what is. And it doesn't mean wallowing in it. doesn't mean, you know, making that an identity and like playing the victim, but like we're allowed to have bad days. We're allowed to feel sad. I think the hardest one for me to grapple with has been anger cuz I repressed a lot of anger a lot of my life. Um, and just like finding healthy outlets for anger. >> Do you have what is that? >> What is my anger? >> Do you have no like the >> healthy outlet? No. Do you cuz I need some I need some I I writing I like to write. I really love >> um >> healthy conflict conversation >> but only with the right people. Um you know like being physically active is great cuz that's like actual energy you're releasing. Um, no. I think I I'm still figuring that one out because maybe it's just different for women. Like we at least the women I I know like it's harder for us to be an angry woman just out of fear of being labeled as difficult or whatever. But crazy. Yeah, I'm okay being called crazy, but >> yeah. Um, and then I don't know what I was talking about before that. What was I answering? Oh, happiness and joy. Um, to me, >> how could we forget about happiness and joy? >> How could we forget? Cuz I'm on to anger. Um, no, I think I think joy to me like the definition of joy is just being really present. And I didn't know how to be really present um a lot of my life. It's also still something that I'm figuring out. But yeah, just like being in the moment, whatever that is, whether it's in this conversation or on a drive or >> Yeah. >> whatever it is. >> I don't think a lot of people talk about the transition, like the gray area between your old life and your new one, >> like the relationships and the the engagements and environments that you outgrow. And I'm just curious how you navigated that that process. O, I posted something the other day about that. That you can't step into a new chapter when you're clinging on to a old one. Um, that's hard. That's where the pain is and that is like real grief. And so in my life, I knew I made the the conscious choice that I wanted to like go to my highest timeline. And I say that every morning. I'm like, introduce me to the people, places, and things that are going to put me on my highest timeline. That's what I want. And I know with that will come loss because anything that's not meeting me there, it's kind of in my way and it's got to it's it's got to leave. And there and in that lies a lot of loneliness. Um like the last couple years of my life have been incredibly lonely. And it's not to say I haven't had good people around me. I have. But that path can can be not isolating. I think there's a difference between is isolation and loneliness. But, you know, not everyone's on that path. And I've found it um a little more challenging, I guess, to connect with like-minded people. Um so, but it's worth it, you know? It's worth it. I wouldn't change it for anything. I wouldn't go back to my old way of living for anything. even though I have so much gratitude for that time in my life, it like helped me build out this toolbox of, you know, it like gave me all my little superpowers and and I'm and I'm really grateful for that. Um, but yeah, I guess people don't really talk about the loneliness that comes with choosing a better life because guess what? A lot of people don't want you to get better. A lot of people want you to stay small because it serves them. Like you really find out who not who loves you because I believe there's >> love everywhere, but I guess you find out the people that are really meant for you when you set boundaries for yourself and when people respect that. And you know, I've had people in my life that have unfortunately not really understood the person I am now. I feel further away from certain people in my life than ever. Even though I know I'm doing what's best for me, not everyone understands that. And that's okay. And um and that's how I know that I I think there's a lot of strength in that, knowing that I'm doing what's best for me, even though it means I might not feel as connected to people that I love a lot. And there are still ways to connect with them, but I'm not willing to play small or go back to a certain lifestyle. It's just not it's not an option for me. Yeah. >> Yeah. I feel like it's so important just to like reclaim your no and where your boundaries are of who is for you and who's not for you. And I think it obviously can be a messy process like discerning where that line is because you I know people have reached out and like have sent in questions for this podcast and just in community like it is a thing a lot of people experience when they start to grow and they have a new level of awareness and their old life and relationships are just not in a match to to who they're becoming. Yeah, >> it's a it's a painful push and pull cuz you on one hand don't want to feel like you're leaving people behind, but also you need to like spend time with people and energies that are going to foster who you want to become. >> Exactly. And I I also think it's it's made me realize how much of a people pleaser I was for most of my life >> because I would if people needed me to be the nice version, I would do that. or if people needed me to bend over backwards for them, I would do that even at the expense of myself. And so when I finally started choosing myself and what was best for me and like actually being like, "No, this is how I feel and this is what I want." Like I didn't think I was deserving of what I wanted and needed. So I wouldn't talk about it. And that was like poison to me. that was why I was drinking ultimately is that I felt like I didn't have an identity or I did have an identity and I wasn't expressing that. Um, and when you don't express yourself like that, that's where a lot of problems will arise as I'm sure you know. But um yeah, I I've had to get really okay with maybe people not liking me or people not understanding me. Um because I I I feel like I know who I am. I know my heart. I know my intentions and I know where I'm going and I know how I want to feel. And I just like am laser focused on that. And like that doesn't mean being a bad person and you know not communicating with people. I think it's just I've learned how to properly express my needs and wants for the first time in my life. >> Hey guys, a quick share. If you're looking to add a powerful but simple health tool to your daily routine, I recommend checking out Bon Charge's red light devices. I use mine in the mornings, especially when it's cloudy outside, and it's helped with everything from energy and mood to skin health and sleep. Red light therapy is backed by thousands of studies, and it's a great way to get healthy light exposure without messing up your circadian rhythm. Boncharge stands out because their devices have the lowest EMF levels. There's no flicker, and they both have near infrared and red light in one lightweight device. They ship worldwide, are easy with returns and exchanges, and they offer a range of other sciencebacked wellness products that you can check out. It's currently the Bond Charge holiday sale, so you can save a big 25% off. Just head to bondcharge.com/nowyself and your 25% off code will automatically be applied to your order. It's the best sale of the year and is running for a limited time. Bond Charge products are all HSA and FSA eligible, giving you taxfree savings of up to 40%. I hope you dig it. back to the show. >> Yeah. I think we have this like conflation that like love is this sort of docile thing, you know, and >> some of the most powerful forms of love are extremely fierce and like holding a boundary and anger can be a force of holding a boundary for protecting what you love. And >> yeah, >> um, so it feels like often times it can feel counterintuitive, but the most loving thing that we could do is actually say no, hold the boundaries, honor honor what we need for ourselves, otherwise we're not going to be able to fully show up the way we want to. >> I know. Can you imagine a world where we all were honoring ourselves? It feels like it would be chaotic, but maybe that would be a a peaceful world. I don't know. Yeah. I'm sure a lot would fall away, but like >> the authentic connections of like >> you know what's meant for everybody would I feel like fall into place. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Yeah. What has been coming online for you then? You spoke to a bit of your intuition and like your new sense of self and discovering and of course it's a practice and there's more to learn and more to come. >> Um but over the past four years, how has your connection with yourself revealed to you like new insights, new gifts, your ability to listen to your intuition? like what's been coming up for you on the other side of it. >> Yeah, I mean I think the fog is still kind of clearing. Um and it really is like when I was a kid I had like razor sharp intuition like borderline some psychic stuff like and I think a lot of kids do a lot of children do and we just like write it off as oh they're just you know talking to their imaginary friend in the backyard. It's like, no, they're actually probably talking to someone. Um, and then, you know, it faded away. But I think just like getting, not that I'm psychic, but like I my intuition is strong about people, about places. Um, I I'm questioning the world around me in a way that I never have. Um, and I think that's healthy. Like I um I want to know more. I'm asking more questions. like I my connection with God, spirit, source, whatever you want to call it, is is is back. Not that that ever left me. I think I definitely cut that off for a while because it I don't want to say it overwhelmed me, but I knew that if I could just pray out loud and connect with God that there would be help and guidance there. Um, and for some reason I just avoided that for a long time. So the connection's back, which is exciting. Um, my creativity is on a level that I haven't ever experienced. I think as an actor, you know, our job is to share the human experience in the best way we can through the roles that we do. And it's a miracle I even could act at all in my 20s because I was so avoiding myself. Um, and now I've experienced life. I've I've confronted things. I've I've just have much more life experience. It's only made me a better actor. And that's exciting because I love what I do. I feel very relieved that after all of this, I still love what I do. And um, so that's great. What else has changed? I mean, how we treat people is different. I think I mean, we all probably know this. When we treat others well, it means we're typically treating oursel well. And because I know how to nurture myself in a better way, I I I'm only able to show up for people in a more authentic way. Doesn't mean I'm overgiving. It doesn't mean not in a people pleasing way, but like I really can show up for my people. And that's a really good feeling. Um, and then there's per the purpose that I've found. I I think a lot of my life I it's not to say I didn't love what I was doing, but it always just felt like I was coming up a little short. I was like, but this can't be it. There's got to be like more to it. And that all shifted really when I started speaking about everything. something clicked where I was like, "Oh, maybe that is a part of my purpose now." Um, talking about it, having these conversations. Um, you know, the people people I've talked to online, people even have come up on the street have like talked about how what I've said has connected with them and like if that can inspire them to then go have another conversation about it, like that's what really matters. And like I don't know why I struggled with all of this stuff, but that might be why. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Um because I don't think we go through pain just to just because God hates us or some like no, we go through pain because that becomes our wisdom that we share to other people. Um, and I I lived in a victim mentality for a long time, but now I'm like, "Wow, it's so crazy to me to think that the most painful moments in my life were my biggest gift because now I'm on the other side of it and I can talk about it and I can just share what I've been through. It might not be not might not appeal to everyone. And it might not make sense to everyone and it definitely everyone's journey is very specific, but um it feels like I'm on a path to something and I'm just going to keep talking my way through the path. It's so funny cuz like we all yearn for being connected with obviously ourselves and those around us and it feels like we're often under the presumption that the best way to do that is to perform and put on the best version of ourel >> but like you're speaking to as you've shown your real raw journey the past few years that's what's actually connected with people the most crazy >> which is sorry go ahead. I know it's just paradoxical, right? Cuz it's like >> but it it's it's fascinating and revealing into like the insight into the nature of of how vulnerability connects us and >> um it's just it's a refreshing reminder especially as somebody who has such a big platform and has millions of people looking up to them like um >> I'm just I'm proud of you for for like so courageously sharing that cuz I know can and I'm sure it has felt pretty scary at times. >> Yeah, it still does. Um, but it's so interesting you say that because I spent so many years trying to be and it wasn't even that people were pressuring me. I was putting pressure on myself to be there was like this perfectionism thing and under perfectionism is just like an unworthiness I think. And the unworthiness is I felt like I couldn't just show up as me with my baggage and all and be loved and be worthy of love. Um, but like you said, when we show up with truth, people connect with that and people respect that and and I think that that is really powerful and and and to be able to show up whether whether you call it vulnerability or truth, whatever, to be able to show up as me um and to be maybe not received by everyone because I've had to let go of everyone like me, but I to just show up as me and to to be okay with whatever people give me is is a really um great place to be in. >> Have you noticed that the more that you kind of source that love from self, the need to try to garner it from other people's goes down? >> Oh, yeah, 100%. And there is truth to that. I definitely think unless someone's figured it out, there will always be a little bit of wanting to be not even liked, but I I I want to connect with people. And I hope that whatever I say does connect with people, whether it's through TV and film or whether it's through podcast or something I'm saying online. Like, yeah, of course, I want people to like that or connect with it. But the more I'm making authent authentic choices for myself, that inherently just feels so true and right that it's almost like you block out whatever negativity is coming your way. So, um I haven't fully figured that one out yet. Um and it's obviously it's tricky in the public eye to not to not care. Like I I do care and I think that's okay. But if people don't like me because of what I'm saying, which is my truth, that's not my problem. >> Yeah. >> And ultimately, if it's bothering you, I've still done a good job because it's showing someone something, right? Cuz I believe that anything that triggers me and someone else, that's a mirror to me. Like, okay, let me get curious about that. Why does that bother me? Why does what they say really get under my skin? Is it about them? No. It's a bit It's something within me. And so I've had to realize like either way, it's fine. >> Yeah. >> Um and I don't I already said this earlier, but like I wasn't I wasn't put here to be small or to be quiet. Like I am going to talk about what I believe. I am going to talk about my story and I'm going to be myself. And I hope that encourages other people to do the same. I've always thought of like fame as kind of walking through this like hallway of distortion mirrors. Like you ever go to those like carnivals where there's like those mirrors that like distort your body into like really big or skinny or whatever. >> I'm just curious as like somebody whose identity is sh is being shaped from a young age. Um and you have all of these, you know, projections from the outside in and we have this part of us that's hardwired that wants to be a part of the tribe and fit in and wants to be liked. like it's okay to care about that and to acknowledge that and I appreciate that. Um, and now at this stage of your life as you've grown, how do you navigate and discern being in the public eye, staying true to yourself and not contorting yourself to for more validation? >> >> Yeah, I mean I am in that place in my life in my industry online and I'm like bec because a lot of it just feels empty to me and I'm like and and I don't mean that in a judgmental way to anyone or anything. I just am looking for more. And so now I'm kind of in this place of like, okay, how can I bring more of me to my industry and what I do? Um, I mean, it's changed a lot. Like I there are parts of my job that come with the territory and I know that and not everything has to be a one be 100% aligned all the time and like be full of meaning and connection. Like some of it just doesn't. I think that should come as no surprise. Some of it just doesn't. Um but a lot of it does. like I've I've been really lucky with the people I've worked with, the projects I've been a part of. Um, where people do get it. There are people in my industry that are on a similar path. And it's not to say that my path or anyone else's path is is better than the other, but I want to live the most authentic life possible. Um, and there are a million things all the time around me that can be a distraction or keep me kind of hindered or But that's okay. I mean, I'm still kind of figuring that part out. I'm like in the process. >> You don't have it all figured out, Lucy? >> I don't. Shocker. Yeah, I wish. Maybe one day. But >> the the funny thing about that is just like it feels like the more we're actually living in alignment with our path, the more the path in front of us kind of disappears. Like there's always going to be a bit of a mystery. Like if we know how everything's going to unfold in our life. >> Boring. >> Yeah. It's boring, but it's also an indicator that you're not like you're not >> you're not creating something new. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> It's all like a recombination of past stuff. >> Yeah. Um, >> that's true. >> So, so yeah, I'm curious what you feel like intuitively that you're getting like hints at or whispers of this next kind of chapter of life. Yeah. Like what's >> I mean I definitely want to I think you followed I have a little Instagram account called the light dwellers and we were kind of talking about it before we started >> that essentially is is kind of a hobby right now but I definitely know I definitely know my I'm being pushed towards something surrounding conversations and community and like-minded people and that would be, you know, sort of a totally separate thing than my day job as an actor. Um, and and I'm excited about that. I feel like I have a lot of ideas percolating and it's kind of one of those things where I don't see the path with it, but I know that when you make baby steps every day, like the path kind of appears or disappears, as you just said. Um, and I also want to create meaningful content and I uh through act through acting and and TV and film. Um, >> and and really make the content that I would want to see out in the world. Just >> stuff that makes you think, that asks the bigger questions, has a lot of meaning. Um, but I also like outside of career stuff, I am in this place in my life where I'm almost craving simplicity, if that makes sense. Like I really just, you know, I'm in more of like family mindset these days and and wanting to build a life outside of what I do as well that complements the other. Um, not would never want to abandon what I do for a living, but yeah, just like priorities have shifted a little bit and I'm constantly surprised by my life, like you know, some of the things that happen and and show up. It just, you know, I I don't set a rule book for my life. And I think that that has been kind of especially in what I do, they tell you you need to be this kind of actress to get this kind of role and you need to do this to do that. And I was like, I don't want to do that. I want to have my career and I want to do it my way. And who says I can't do a movie like that and then go and do a movie like this? Like people are complex. I am complex. I want to do all things. Like I really and I want to do it all while, you know, trying to leave the world a little bit better. >> A quick one. You guys know how much I love Mudwater and have shared about their mushroom beverage blends in the past. This year they released the world's first mental wellness shake. 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How do you navigate especially as an actor? I'm sure your relationship to rejection and like the things you get, a lot of things you don't get. >> That's super healthy. Yeah. >> I'm sure you've just learned a lot about that and I'm sure it could be applied to like just going forward whoever's listening to this conversation right now. We all have our desires or ambitions for what we want to create. What have you learned about how often you're going to face no and face rejection on the path to to getting the the win, so to speak. >> Yeah, you're going to hear it a lot. You're going to hear it a lot. But I've had to learn that rejection isn't personal to me. Um, you know, it's like there could be a multitude of reasons why we don't why I don't book a certain job or why, you know, not everyone can relate to entertainment industry, but like we all experience disappointment and rejection all the time. But none of it's personal. It could be like I said about so many reasons. And I'll just use like acting as an example. Like I believe in like the divine timing of my life. I believe that every scenario, every relationship, every friendship, every rejection, every success like I am one of those people that believes that is pre-planned. I really, really do. So when I look at rejection, it's all about perspective, too. Like is is it really rejection or is it protection? Like a lot of people say that God's reject rejection is God's protection. I really do believe that. >> I like that. >> Oh, like the guy turned you down. Well, you could have been a serial killer. Like like it's a good thing. Or like you didn't get the job. It might have been a bad movie like that I didn't want to be a part of. So, um I think just because I have sort of the bird's eye view of my life, it's help now. I haven't always had that. It's helped me accept the losses, which are they really losses, the rejections um and missteps um with more grace because I believe it's leading me somewhere amazing. I really do. And I think that and that perspective shift didn't happen overnight. It's been years of of that. Um, but it's changed my life because now I can navigate the the water. You know, whatever comes my way, I know how to kind of stay laser focused on where I'm going and know that anything that happens, it's only for my highest good. And I genuinely believe that to my core. >> You said since you were very young, you felt very called towards this line of work. Yeah. >> Yes. Well, continue and then I'll >> go go for it. What what in what context? Yeah. What what did you feel really called to? What aspects of it? >> I felt really called to something bigger. And by that like I didn't necessarily relate to or I'm like typical black sheep of the family. Um always felt a little bit different. always felt like I thought a little bit differently. Didn't really connect with a lot of kids my age. Um, and I just knew that I was going to do something outside of my city and outside of my family. Like I just had that feeling from a very young age. Um, but I also now understand that like the creativity outlet I had as a kid and have now was like a coping mechanism for sure. Um, I loved it. I didn't have to be myself. I could, you know, daydream and that was just sort of my valve, like my emotional valve for a long time. Um, and I don't necessarily know if that was healthy cuz I think there's a lot of avoidance happening as well. Um, like as a kid I didn't really know what an actor was. I just knew I wanted to escape, if that makes sense. Um, and now it does surprise me that I still love what I do. so much, you know, considering the whole journey through it. Like I feel like I know some people that have gone through a similar experience and like left Hollywood or >> get jaded from it, >> get jaded or, you know, decide to have a quieter life. Um, so thank God cuz I didn't go to college and didn't have a backup plan. Um, but I I did always have like this sense of knowing as a kid that my life wasn't going to be ordinary. Not that ordinary is bad, but I knew it wasn't going to be the typical life. And yeah, I don't think I I knew what I was in for, but yeah. Was there a moment that stood out to you as like, oh, not necessarily I made it, but like you it was like a a chapter of like really realizing, oh what I kind of set out to do, I've done in some way. >> I still don't feel that way. >> No, I mean, of course, it's funny though. Of course, there's been >> I don't know. I I always have I'm not one of those people that can I don't really celebrate myself cuz I'm always like, "Oh, I just finished this movie, but what am I doing? When's the next one?" And I'm always planning ahead, which is a great quality, but I you lose out on a lot of the present moment, which I told you being joyous is being present. So, I'm trying to be better about like really acknowledging the things I'm doing and and what I've overcome and um but I'll always have that feeling of like, oh, but I want to do more. I'm not quite there yet. And I think that that's healthy to have that kind of when you get to the top of a mountain, there's just going to be another mountain. And it's the journey, as they say. Um >> Mhm. >> cuz I've had many destinations in the past and I'd get to the destination I'd be like this is it >> and so it can't be about the destinations anymore. Like I do have big dreams and big goals and I have no doubt that I'll do them but if you're not enjoying it along the way kind of a bummer. So, I'm trying to be better about just like, you know, celebrating myself, celebrating the people around me and um and slowing down a little bit. I think I can get a little bit addicted to the the hustle of things and I love being busy. I am can fall into like workaholic mode a little bit because especially after I got sober, my addictions kind of went in that direction because that's another form of avoidance. You know, if you're working all the time, if you're busy all the time, it doesn't even have to be with, you know, actual work. Like I'll fill my days sometimes with just like random things. And I have to really stop myself and be like, why are you filling your day? and and ultimately it becomes about I still don't necessarily love being still. Um because stillness, you know, it it still will bring stuff to the surface for me. So, why did I go off on that tangent? >> It's a good tangent. I >> I tend to I tend to go on them and like can't remember why. But anyway, >> for people that don't have context for how big of a show Pretty Little Liars was, feel like cuz like it was it was you could probably say one of the biggest shows of the time. >> So >> would you say that? >> Yes. I was just having this conversation with a friend who he claims he had never heard of Pretty Little Liars and I was like it was the biggest show in the world. But at the time I didn't know that. Like I think when you're in something there isn't really at least for me there wasn't really an awareness of the success of it. I mean I knew it was successful cuz we did many many seasons of it and social media was different then though. It wasn't quite the beast it is now. Like there wasn't Tik Tok. Uh there was Instagram I guess and Twitter but we were always just filming too. So, we weren't really doing anything other than like actually making the show. Um, but yes, I would say it was a very, very successful show and it changed my life. You know, I'm so grateful for that experience and I can look back at it now and while I was going through so much personally during that show, I can now look at it with it probably saved my life. that experience if we're being honest, you know, like having that structure and being busy and being surrounded by good people. Um, I think that was kind of like my medicine for a while. And while it was sometimes hard to be struggling so much and to show up and, you know, the pressure of wanting to deliver a good show, um, I think it was a constant in my life that I really needed. Um, yeah, it it's nice to be in the place now where I can look back and only feel joy about it. >> I remember talking to Rain Wilson. Um, >> love him. I love y'all's conversation. It was a good one. >> He's he's great. Such a good dude. Um, and he, you know what really stuck out to me, many things throughout our conversation, but one just talking about as he was playing Dwight on the Office, >> he was actually very depressed and miserable for a lot of his life during that time. And I think there's this disillusionment once you start to have success and then realize like, oh, >> it's not the solvent I once hoped it would be. >> No. No. >> Um, in fact, it kind of can make you despondent and kind of um it it makes you realize that you're still you and you carry you with you wherever you go. >> It's going to find you. Yeah. It's like I don't care how much money you're making, how many followers you have, if you're on the biggest show in the world or whatever. Like, >> I'd be lying if it's if I said it didn't make certain things easier. Like, of course, >> the resources, the access. >> Yes, of course. and I was always very aware of that. But yeah, you're always going to catch up with yourself no matter where where you're at. Um, but I think there can be an extreme loneliness in that. Like I couldn't relate to a lot of my friends in my life during that time because no one wants to hear about a an actor on a successful TV show struggling like a lot of a lot of people around me at that time were like well I don't understand like what's so hard like how could you be unhappy how could you be struggling in this way behind the scenes I mean um and so I kept quiet about it because I think there was a um I felt guilt around not having everything figured out while I was the universe was like rewarding me with all of everything I wanted. Um, but it was a good lesson for me and like you can have the world and still not feel like you have it because ultimately what I was looking for for all those years was it wasn't more money, it wasn't more success, it wasn't more fame, it wasn't more things. Um, I wanted to accept myself. I wanted to know myself. And um, what an interesting way. I I got to it, but what an interesting winding journey to get there. >> There's something very I don't know. It feels like an an exhale when you hear individuals like yourself like Rain who came on and talked about the real internal struggles that people put celebrities and actresses on this pedestal that idolize them and >> it is an enchanting thing to do cuz it looks like a lot of what they're doing is kind of like a dream job, dream position and I'm sure there's elements that are just incredibly wonderful. Um, but it's also so refreshing to experience somebody's humanity. And it's something that I get to do often on this podcast and I know you like with other friends and colleagues in in the space, you realize how everyone's human and they have their human stuff. >> And uh, yeah, it just kind of levels the playing field, I feel. >> Yeah. I think we all have more in common than we realize. Like that's what I realized when I started talking about everything is like yeah our circumstances might be different, our culture, like our resources, our upbringing, but like how we feel, it's the exact same. Like I would hear certain people's stories where we had nothing in common. But they would start talking about how they felt and I was like I felt more at home with them than I did with anyone in that moment. And I think we just forget. I think it's it's very easy to make people feel divided. I mean, >> yeah, >> you know, it's very easy to feel that way, but but ultimately like we all have more in common than we think, and that is such a beautiful feeling. >> What would you say to the Lucy of five, six, seven years ago? I would just tell her that she did a great job and I'm grateful. Um, I spent so much my life hating myself and hating the choices I made. But you really can't love yourself if you hate the experiences that shaped you. Um, that wouldn't have changed anything. I feel like the more that we go through those challenging like moments in our life and we kind of make it out the other side and that resiliency that's born from it. >> I don't know. I feel like it's it's it in many ways just >> allows you to meet new painful moments that will inevitably come challenging circumstances with a bit more grace and understanding that not only will it pass but like it's actually shaping and refining you into your next iteration. 100%. And also, you can look at past experiences and be like, "Oh my god, if that didn't happen, you see the butterfly effect of why?" Like, I know now why I had to go through that. And just kind of a perspective shift that everything is a teacher or a lesson. And you know, yeah, just like really understanding that concept has changed my life. Like um and I guess that's just stepping out of victim mentality and and and I think owning my life has changed my life because a lot of the time I would give my power away too easily and like blame a person or an experience of like well that's why I struggled or that's why I feel this way. that is giving your power away too easily. Like bad things happen to good people all the time. It's all in how you react to it. Um doesn't mean we enable the behavior um or justify it. I think accountability is really really important. M would you say that you taking responsibility for your life through sobriety and of course we have the continual opportunity to daily >> but um was that was that the primary thing that really shifted it all for you >> getting sober? >> Uh yeah I guess the responsibility of like really owning that in the way you're describing it. >> Yeah definitely. I mean, I think that's true power when because I think we don't realize how powerful we are as humans. Like, we do hold all the power and we're taught that we don't. And it all starts in your mind. And um yeah, but I think it started with like, okay, this is literally what's happening in my life, seeing my part in it. How do I avoid that from happening again? Like changing the thought pattern. But then just like realizing we are all creators and then I took it to the next level of like okay what do I want to create in my life and realizing that I c I can make that happen simply with my mind alone. Um but I'm on that path now. But yes, it did start with with taking responsibility of my life and um and and forgiveness. I think forgiving people and forgiving myself. I think that that um has changed my life. Um and I'm still working on that as well. You know, I think uh new things come up all the time where I'm like, "Oh, I thought thought I had healed that. I thought I had let that go." Especially, I don't know what's going on with the planets right now, but like stuff's happening. I feel very um emotionally raw and and fragile at the moment, but that's all right. You just roll with it. >> What does that look like for you in terms of the forgiveness aspect? Um what do you feel like are those things that you need to forgive or have needed to? I think mainly um how I've treated other people. Um I think when I was hurting and in a darker place in my life, I hurt a lot of people and not not really on purpose, but just because I didn't know I didn't know how to treat myself, so I didn't know how to treat other people. Um, I still am learning to forgive things I've put myself through that were definitely not for my highest good and like maybe a little bit dangerous. Um, but it's mainly I think I was a bit unkind to myself for a lot of my life. Um, and luckily I I all the people I have apologized to, I've been gifted with the opportunity to apologize to almost everyone on my like list of people. It's crazy. Like I would run into people on the street. I didn't even have their number anymore. And I'd be like, I can't believe this is happening. And and I'd get to give an apology to them, random people. And that's been the biggest gift of like like releasing that emotional baggage and then you realize like it wasn't affecting them as much as I thought it was. Um, yeah, >> it's cool to see what happens with like the intention too just to like go back and do a scan of like all of these sort of subconscious tabs that are open of like unresolved energy and stuck things and where there's still room for more forgiveness or whatnot. >> Um, and what comes on the other side of too like attending to those things. It's uh it's really cool to see what opens up and >> um as you've described your things with with like the like new community that you're like starting to foster on the side with light the light dwellers and >> um exploring all these curiosities you have. It's um >> yeah, it's just cool to see the correlation between like how cleaning up our past allows more room and more space and energy for what's to come. >> 100%. I mean, like, how often do you hear of someone leaving a toxic relationship and then they get their dream job or quitting a job and then they find the love of their life? Like, we have to let it's like I said, like you can't enter a new chapter without letting go of the old one. And it's uncomfortable, but obviously worth it. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Do you view your like how do you view your sense of spirituality? >> What is that for you? How do you >> I I really we have to come up what's another word for spirituality cuz I I believe all humans are inherently spiritual like because we all in my opinion come straight from spirit so we are spirit um some of us are more in tune with it there is a spectrum of course um but I feel like you know we live in LA so there's spiritual people everywhere and like I love >> lots of people on on the spectrum you know >> the spiritual spectrum >> spiritual spectrum like I love to do all the spiritual things like sound healing and you know energy healing crystals all of it astrology I'm more obsessed with astrology than anyone um but it takes more than that you know to be in my opinion like I feel most spiritual when I'm living that and that comes with how I treat other people and how I treat myself and um you know and checking in often with I call then my team, you know, we're all surrounded by so much guidance and support and anyone has access to that all the time. Um, and so that to me is living a spiritual life, like remembering where I come from and where I'm going after this. And um, and just finding like I see miracles in my life every single day. It blows my mind. Um, that I've always been there. I just like kind of had blinders on for a long time. >> Yeah. It seems like all those tools like the things that look kind of from the outside and like oh that's a spiritual practice or you're doing sound healing or whatever. >> Um the way you're describing is just like these are all different doorways to access what's already there and to reveal the connection that's already innate there. And I think that's important to highlight just because spirituality has developed a sense of like it's a face like we know what it looks like and it's built in identity and that can also be like a dangerous thing too because then you >> hide behind that and that becomes I know a lot of sp on paper spiritual people that scare me. I'm like um I wouldn't want to be within like 100 feet of you. Um but yeah you don't is it great to have modalities and things that work for you? Of course, you don't need that. You don't need anything. You are spiritual and we have access to that 100% of the time 24/7. Um, but it does take, I think, um, consistency of checking in with yourself, of checking in with your intuition, God. Um, but you don't need the things. And that to me is really cool because you can be anywhere in the world. Like I've always been somewhere who never quite felt at home anywhere. Um I'm I'm almost like homesick for a place I've never even been to. And I know a lot of people relate to that. Um but it's becoming less and less because my home has been me. I don't need I don't need a physical home or whatever. Like it's it's the home is me and my connection to something bigger than me. That's really well said and I think something that we can all relate to like beyond all the labels and identities and religions that like kind of come back to the essence of like the connection to a higher power to source to whatever labels we put on it. >> Um like to me it feels like that's what I feel like the direction we're moving in and these conversations help to be a part of. you think of science like there's not like Hindu science and and American science and you know Australian science like science is one thing and and spirituality because of the amazing like ancient wisdom traditions come from all these different things and speak it speak about what is essentially the same thing in different ways. Um, but I feel like we're entering a time where like we're kind of democratizing it and and and making it less gatekeepy and less language that is super vague and Yeah. >> and and and helping as many people connect to it in the way that they do. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I think it helps to just have these conversations where it's like your lived human experience is what allows you to connect and relate with people and impact them the most. I feel like so >> 100%. And I, not that there's anything wrong with any specific religion, but I grew up in a Christian household where I thought that was the only way. Like, and for a lot of people that does work, and that's so beautiful. Um, but it's not the only way. Um, and what I always find so amazing is that there's a trillion different ways to connect to yourself or to something bigger than yourself. But it is our job as humans to connect with whatever that is. Like I don't ever personally I don't ever want to live a passive life where I'm just getting by or going through the motions. Like we are here to enjoy, to experience joy, to go through whatever we need to go through to live the lessons. But we do have a responsibility as humans. I really do believe that. I don't I don't believe everyone's here to like change the world. We all can in little ways. Some of us are here to change it, make a bigger splash than others. Um but I don't take my responsibility as a human lightly anymore. Um, and I think that's shifting a lot as well. I think a lot of people are waking up. Um, once again, I don't know if that's just because I've woken up a little or grown up, but it feels like a lot of people are asking big important questions and are kind of like seeing through it all a little bit. And that's exciting to me. It is very exciting because I feel like we live in a time where it's very scary to tune into the collective of like what's coming in the next few years and >> the various tragedies that we have access to like constantly um that take up our attention. >> But it is so inspiring to tune into the communities and the individuals that are like waking up to these new levels of awareness and that feels very inspiring. >> Yeah. >> Like a more beautiful world is possible >> when we work together from that aspect. Um, agree. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think it's a fine line between being aware of what's happening in the world obviously and holding space for it and um being kind to all people, but also like protecting your own energy. I think I've had to learn that like it's important that we all take care of us because that just makes for a healthier environment. You know what I'm saying? like when you take care of you that bleeds out into the every person you meet and then that bleeds out into everyone else. So yeah, it's a balance between like knowing what's going on in the world and also like taking care of yourself. >> What's your relationship? Because you mentioned this like feeling of the more you like develop the joy and peace that is possible within ourselves, it can kind of in contrast feel like boredom compared to the chaos we're familiar with that was like excitement. And I'm just curious as you've grown because this is something I like contemplate, you know, think about a bit. Like I'm I live a very hermited life a lot of times and like really enjoy my own solitude and and quiet and peace. >> Um and I'm curious what that contrast has been like. Oh, it was like whiplash for a long time because my life was I would I was in a cycle of chaos for so long where there'd be a really chaotic week or month and then I'd like pick up the pieces and it would feel really peaceful again and then I'd blow up my life again whether people knew about it or not like internally blowing up my life. I was like a queen of self-sabotage. I knew how to subtly sabotage anything. And that's only because I didn't feel, I guess, really deserving of something lasting or something amazing. And um and so when I, you know, got sober, life externally really quieted down because I wasn't doing making the same choices or going to the same places or around the same people. I found myself wanting to like start little fires in my life because I was like addicted to the chaos. I loved it. I still am, but I have to like really keep that part of me in check and like fuel that energy into work or creativity. But like it I I I feel like there might be a a misconception about people who get sober that like everything is zen and perfect and healed and it that hasn't been my experience necessarily. Like it is a chemical rebalancing as well. Like I I'm sure my brain has completely like normalized now, but but I I I think where I've seen like the most chaos is just in I guess my dynamics with people. Like I would try to, you know, start little fires with people in my life and and I've had to work on that and be aware of it. But but I do appreciate the peace in my life now, which I used to equate to boredom, but it's not boredom. It it genuinely is peaceful. And I used to view I think we talked about this earlier, like I used to view myself as boring in those moments, but now I'm like I'm the least boring person I know. Um, and you can find positive chaos, I think, as well. Or maybe chaos is the right is the wrong word. Um, I know how to have fun and I know how to find fun in my life. Um, in a way that doesn't derail my life, >> which is good. But >> yeah, I look back in hindsight at some of it and I need to write a book or something. >> Let's go. app. >> How has your evolution of understanding what beauty is? >> How has that evolved over time? What you feel beauty is? >> For myself or just >> yourself or what you find? Yeah. No, like Yeah. What >> what you think beauty is, how it's evolved for you over time? >> Well, I think growing up and in my industry, I thought beauty was obviously external, right? It was how you physically looked, how much I weighed, how much work I was doing on myself, like my makeup, my everything. I thought that beauty was just what people could see. But funny enough, that's never when I felt my most beautiful. Like I always felt kind of like a phony in that way cuz like objectively I would look a specific way but internally I felt very ugly if that makes sense cuz I knew I wasn't honoring myself and I wasn't respecting myself. So now beauty to me is I mean it's very subjective obviously but the most beautiful people to me are people who are really in tune with themselves and and that's an energy right like there could be someone that walks into a room that some some people might not look twice at but like if you're met with that like really warm high frequency energy like that stops you in your tracks and beauty really is internal. And there is something inherently beautiful about someone who takes care of themsself and in all every sense of the word and someone who is tapped into something bigger than themsel like that to me is really beautiful. And I it's it's interesting being in an industry where you're kind of or not even in the industry like we're met with so much all the time. And there's so much information of like how to look, what to be, what to buy, and it's like, oh my god, like it's it's sensory overload. And um and I don't think that's normal for anyone. Like we're just h how are we supposed to like really figure out who we are when we're met with all of that. Um anyway, I'm getting sidetracked on that, but beauty to me is way more internal now. And I feel the most beautiful Honestly, like when I'm alone, I know that sounds crazy, but when I'm sometimes I just get so moved by how at peace I am in my life and I struggled a lot with, as I'm sure a lot of women and men do, like I I I put a lot of pressure on myself, a lot of my life for the way I physically looked. Um, and to be at peace with how God made me and how I am is a good feeling that that that just has taken so much pressure off of my plate just to like have full true acceptance in that way. Um, evolving of course. Um, but yeah. What would you say to to the women that are listening right now that struggle with body image? >> It's tough, you know, because I can always give my two cents or advice, but ultimately like we're all going to hear my advice in a million different ways. I mean, cuz I could say just like stay offline. It's but it's not it's not as easy as that, right? I think finding true acceptance of self um that's that's a unique journey to everyone. I mean I would say like remove the things that don't fulfill you. Um like remove the distractions I guess and I don't know I I would say just get really curious about why the things you don't like about yourself. get really curious about that and why it is that you dislike that about yourself. And I'm willing to bet it has nothing to do with how you physically look. Like when I would physically feel insecure about something, it wasn't really about my skin or I used to hate being short. I used to hate it more than anything. It's literally my favorite thing about me now because I thought in a world like I was always surrounded by tall women and I thought well I'm not that so there must be something wrong with me. No. Like I think the things that make you unique like learn to love them. Find a way to love them. And I can't tell you how to do that but I think it all starts with curiosity. >> Mhm. cuz underneath underneath it all there's always like a core wound and I think it's just like really setting aside time to get to know yourself. Um and that does take work. That's that's commitment and um and being consistent with that and the answers will come. And also ask ask for guidance. Pray talk out loud. Like sometimes when I haven't known what to do or even didn't even know who I was speaking to, if you just like speak out loud and you believe that the answers will come, they will through a song, through a post, through a person, through a number, like I really believe that's how the universe works. And like in my darkest moments when I haven't known what to do, prayer changed my life. So whoever's listening, thanks. >> What does prayer look like to you? Is it just a internal talking to a higher power like writing? >> Yeah. So I I'm very um I always have intentional mornings no matter where I'm at. Like I always set aside time in the morning to set me up for a great day. Um because I am one of those people that like if my morning starts off wrong. So I always make sure that I have that time to connect with myself and and I guess prayer is through I journal a lot. It can be internal prayer. I mean sometimes I talk to myself a lot in my car which is um which is also prayer time. But um yeah, I I I just need as many moments as I can find that are just for me where where I'm by myself. But >> so fun. So fun to learn all the little aspects and the way that you show up for yourself. And >> yeah, >> um I've really just thoroughly enjoyed getting to get more glimpses of insight into the different parts of your journey. I mean, I think people are going to really resonate with it because you're being real. And I know it feels raw, I'm sure, at times, but again, and I mentioned earlier, like I just commend you for showing up so courageously to like say what it is and not just what it wants to sound like, you know? >> I appreciate that. I thank you. And I, you know, I've also I'm at this place in my life where I'm like, okay, I have talked about these things a lot. Like, what else do I want to talk about? And um and and I'm just so grateful to be able to be in this point in my life to have these conversations and like you never know what's going to affect someone. You never know. I always that's why like when I come into these things and I was like ask whatever you want. Like we don't have to prepare because I know that the right words are going to come out of my mouth to affect the right people that need to hear it in that moment. Whether that's five people or 5,000 people or whatever. Um, I just believe that things always happen as they should. So, I'm so grateful to be here finally. This is such a so surreal. I love this podcast. So, >> thank you. >> So sweet. Yeah. Thank you. It's it's always in the right timing. Like I know we were communicating about today. >> Um, is there anything else on your heart? Could be about anything that you feel called to to share about or that we haven't talked to. >> Okay. So, I'm 36. I'm not married and I don't have kids and I'm I finally, you know, I'm I've been greeted with a lot recently within my world of people being like, "Oh," and I just feel like there's a lot of women who probably need to hear that it's okay to not have that at this point in your life. like I have seen so many people in my life settle down, have kids, have the family, and that's beautiful and that's amazing. But and I know that that's a part of my life soon. It it isn't yet. But I think that I don't know why I felt called to say that. I I I do believe that there's big lessons within being alone at this time in your life. There's nothing wrong with it. I think that if you are at a place in your life where you feel alone or you are single, I'm willing to bet you're being called towards something really really amazing. So like enjoy the time with yourself and like get com I feel like maybe the world is trying to tell you something. Does that make sense? Like >> no for sure. >> I feel like society tries to tell us to that we need certain things in order to live a fulfilled life. But basically just don't compare your journey to anyone else's. >> Just a note on that because I have a lot of women in my life also who are mid late 30s early 40s who I know would be incredible mothers that want to be mothers. Not everyone wants to have kids. >> Um and the reality of the biological clock for a woman is different than a man's. Yeah. >> I'm just curious any other thoughts on like how you navigate that kind of that that dance of that yearning and then also like not settling for something. Oh, well that's the thing is like I'm so comfortable being alone. I love my life. I love the people in my life. I made a commitment to myself that whoever I end up with has got to be really excellent. You know, like it doesn't mean you don't compromise with someone, but like I I want a true partner and someone who can like meet me where I'm at and have an understanding of what I've been through. Um but obviously like yeah there is the biological conversations that are very valid. Um but I think it just goes back to I just believe in it'll make sense. I believe in the timing of my life and it'll I'll it'll when when it all happens I'll be like oh I see why it had to happen that way. um we put so much pressure on ourselves and on other people and um and I don't know if there's really a way to avoid that, but I do I have found it comforting to have conversations with women who found all of that later in their life. And and I know that I wouldn't have been able to handle all of that at a different time in my life. No way. I would have completely that would have you know I I wasn't mentally, emotionally, spiritually able to nurture all of that >> then. So, um yeah, I don't know why I felt called to say that, but >> I think it's really important. I'm glad you did because I think a lot of people can really resonate with that. >> Yeah. One last thing that came up on on that front because I think it's tied in is like this this balance between ambition and surrender of like your masculine and feminine sides when it comes to both relationships and career and the things that like >> you want to bring into this world. What is the conversation you're having with yourself of like how that's evolving? >> Yeah, I mean I'm definitely more in my masculine um in the sense that like I'm a go-getter. I want to take action. I want to do like I want to provide. And I've had to really learn how to be more in my feminine. And that when you're when I'm in my feminine, my intuition is stronger. Like I let things flow and I let people come to me. And it really is a dance all the time because that masculine energy is what has made me successful in my career, but it's not necessarily doesn't work for me in romantic relationships. Like so it's been yeah that's been an interesting um dance in my life for sure is like finding the balance between the two because I'm never going to not be a a go-getter. Um, yeah. I think I think just like true feminine energy is just like trusting. I think it's truly just like trusting that things are unfolding exactly as they should. And or I guess surrender is like knowing when to take action and knowing when to sit back and be like, I'm taken care of. >> I was just curious. I know it's a >> I think it's a conversation a lot of people are in especially. And >> how do you feel? selling my feminine these days. >> So nice. Give me some of that. >> Uh, no. How do I feel? I feel like I've I've I have a decent balance. I think it it definitely toggles in different periods where I'm like just working so much and I'm just like so focused on what I want to create and can just use a bit more of like the fe the feminine side. >> Yeah. Um, >> it's just fascinating, I guess, living in especially the more one's connected online and social media and like comparison can be a thing that slips in no matter where you're at. >> Yeah. >> Um, and >> I'm just inviting more and more of the perspective that like to to be grateful that many of the things I'm living right now are things I wish for so many years ago and to like allow that to be enough and fill that, you know, >> feel fulfilled with that. >> That's such a beautiful reminder. Like that's why I journal in the way that I do because I go back and I read what I wanted a year ago and then I see that it's actually happened and I'm like, "Wow." >> Yeah, that's a great reminder. >> No, it's good. >> Thanks for that. >> There's been lots of great reminders in this conversation. >> Do you do me my friends do a a British accent sometimes, too? >> It just comes out kind of like >> happens. >> Yeah, it just comes out whether or not I like it. >> Yeah. No, I was just working in London and I would do that and I think they thought I was mocking them, but I was like, "No, no, it's just a thing that we do." >> It's just a better >> It's a better way to talk sometime. >> It's just a better way to talk. I agree. It sounds better. Yeah. >> I love it. Well, I'm excited to just get to know you more and be friends and all the things. And yeah, thank you for everything. We'll >> leave links down to both the light dwellers and your personal like accounts and where people can stay connected with you. And I'm just so excited to see your journey unfold more than >> it. Thank you for having me. >> You the best. Appreciate you. >> Cheers. Cheers, darling. >> Cheers, darling. >> Everybody, I hope you enjoyed this episode of the No Thyself podcast. Let us know in what ways this uniquely resonated with you and I'll see you next week. Be well. >>