Wolf, thank you for joining me today on Acquiring Minds. Good to be here, Will. We're going anonymous today. You are known on Twitter as The Wolf of Franchises. You come from the world of franchising. You know a ton about it, and you now have a 70,000 followers strong Twitter account from which you write about all things franchising. So, I wanted to have you on to educate the Acquiring Minds audience on how to think about franchise businesses from the perspective of acquisition entrepreneurship. So, a lot of searchers might consider buying an existing established franchise business. So, we'll call that a franchise resale as opposed to starting a territory or a location from scratch. And doing that means evaluating all the typical characteristics of a business, plus the whole element of being part of a franchise. So, I want to explore that, and I think this will be really valuable to people because I know that there is a lot of curiosity from the search community out there about the opportunities presented by franchises. But, before we get into it, a little anonymized background on you, please, Wolf. Yeah, um sure. So, uh I worked for many years at a what is effectively a franchise incubator. So, what we did was we would um basically search the country for early stage franchises. So, that could mean, you know, a franchise with two locations to maybe 20 locations max. Uh it could be in any industry, and for those who are really new to franchises, it goes well beyond fast food. Most people hear franchise, they think of McDonald's, uh but there's actually franchises in pretty much every industry you can think of from fitness to home services to business services, you know, like the UPS Store, their printing and packaging services, that's a franchise. Um so, yeah, really runs the gamut. Um but, what we would do is again, find those franchises. Uh we had our own internal criteria to kind of vet franchises and figure out which ones we thought had the potential to become a national and potentially even international brand. And uh yeah, we would become effectively their bolt-on franchise sales department. So, we would find franchisees around the country, and we would bring them through the due diligence process for any one of our portfolio brands. Um so, through that, right, I just learned all about the different brands that are out there. There's over 4,000 franchises in the United States. And on top of that, I met a ton of existing franchise owners because it's actually very common for someone who already owns a franchise to then buy a new brand. And, you know, the stats are roughly a little over 50% of of existing franchise owners either own multiple brands or multiple locations of the brand that that that they're in. Um so, yeah, uh I you know, I noticed a few things from my work there that I wanted to share, and then that's kind of what led to the genesis of The Wolf. Two things to follow up what you just said. So, where you the work that you were doing before as kind of um the incubator kind of consulting for a franchise ores to build their brand and get franchisees, for people who are totally new to franchising, that's like really that point of contact between percent potential franchisees and franchise ores is really kind of where the the whole thing hinges on that. It's a lot of the franchising game is about recruiting, i.e. selling new franchise uh locations to the local entrepreneur who's going to stand up that that location or territory. Um elaborate on that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you you nailed it, right? It's the name of the game. I mean, uh like any sales role, right, to to drive revenue, you can either sell more to your existing customers, or you got to go find a new customer. Uh and and in franchising, right, because many of the people who are buying them operate in their local market, there's definitely big-time multi-unit owners who basically have national operations, which we can get to, I'm sure, later, you know, I'll I'll cover something along those lines, but for the most part, you know, you need people in every state, right, to be opening your brand if your ambitions as a franchise or to become a national brand. So, um yeah, uh you know, the the thesis to just behind a company like the one I was at, where we're, you know, not actually a part of the brand, is that, you know, if you're an entrepreneur, and let's just use a food example cuz that's easy. Let's say you start a taco restaurant, you know, you have two taco restaurants, and at that point you think, "Hey, I'm going to start franchising this concept." Uh you know, you might have great recipes for tacos, you might know how to run a restaurant, pick the real estate out, build, you know, know what equipment you need to cook the food and make make a quality meal, but then figuring out how to find entrepreneurs all over the country, walk them through a two to three month minimum, two to three month uh sales cycle and due diligence cycle, uh and what tech stack to use, right? It's just a totally different ball game. It's totally different world. Um franchising is really like starting a second business. So, a lot of the founders and CEOs of these small businesses that decide to franchise, they have it it's not easy. Uh some can do it, but many can't, and that's why companies like the one I was at exist, and you know, there's about five to seven legitimate ones around the country. Uh but, that's about it, and you know, they're all fairly on the smaller side, you know, 10 to 30 employees tops. Um so, it's a pretty niche role, but uh you know, for me, I think it it it was the perfect role to see both sides of the industry, both franchisees and franchise ores. Mhm. Mhm. You you just used the word legitimate, uh which another thing that unfortunately the franchising industry sometimes its reputation is that there's a lot of sketchy or actors in it, both the intermediaries, the the franchise consultants, um and sometimes these many of these franchise the franchise ores, the these franchise opportunities. So, you said there are 4,000 franchises to pick from as a prospective franchisee. Um and many of those are kind of junky. You you really wouldn't want to touch them. So, um two questions on the same topic. First of all, of that 4,000, what would you what what is the number of ones you'd actually want to consider? I mean, is it 3,000 of the 4,000 are good, or is it really only like 300 of the 4,000 are really worth considering? Question A. Question B. Why is there this a little bit of a little bit of scamminess, sleaziness sometimes associated with the franchising industry? Yeah, both great questions. So, I mean, on the franchise or side, you know, like how many brands are legitimate? Uh I mean, it's a little tough to say in the sense that like what I would consider a good opportunity might, you know, it it varies from person to person. Everyone has different financial ambitions, uh and you know, number of hours they want to work. Um you know, and even just personally, right, some folks are okay with their business being more of a passion project, where others are completely capitalistic, which I I tend to lend my my thinking to towards that. Um where it's, "Hey, this is a business. This is investment. Let's maximize uh the value we get out of it financially." But, some, right, you know, like there's especially uh education franchises seem to fit this where, you know, you got people who just like, "Hey, I just want to help kids." They're not necessarily that focused on the income, um as long as it doesn't, you know, they they don't want it to go south and bankrupt them, but like as long as they can pay the bills, um they're happy doing what they're doing on day-to-day basis. So, uh it varies, but uh to give you some type of answer, I'd say like at least around 1,500 are are probably legit opportunities. There's definitely like 100 that are actually pretty fantastic business opportunities. Um I I still want to caveat that with you know, I've yet to see a single franchise brand than I other than maybe Chick-fil-A, which that's we don't even have to get into that conversation cuz that's a totally different setup between operator and franchise or. But, Chick-fil-A withstanding, you know, there's not a single brand where you can just buy one location and you're going to be, you know, rich and sitting pretty. Um it's all typically, you know, you have to scale operations, get to multiple locations, or in the case of a home services brand, you know, say like gutter cleaning or something like that. Um you know, those those types of franchises operate more on a territory basis. So, you secure a territory. Doesn't require brick and mortar, but you at least have that kind of geofenced exclusive territory to operate in and build your book of business. You know, with any even the legitimate ones, you're you're still going to want to scale up to multiple locations to make high six figures, potentially seven figures EBITDA at some point. Uh but, still, there are, you know, I'd say at least 100 plus brands. And I know that, right, cuz I'm covering two a week in my newsletter. So, I've had to dig through thousands of them already over the past, you know, 15 months. Um I think the unfortunate part is as you said, right, there's a high volume of brands. There's a lot of crap in there, or not even necessarily crap, just mediocre investments, you know, that are six to eight year paybacks. Um and that makes it harder for even the good ones to stand out because there's just no good way yet to really uh research these brands. And getting to your second question, right, with that kind of leads right into the sleazy vibe that sometimes people get from the industry. Uh I totally get it. That's that's why I started my newsletter and Twitter account. I noticed the same thing. Um it just there's a lot of misaligned incentives. You know, you have you know, for folks, since this won't be on video, at least my end won't, franchise consultants, and that I put that in air quotes because uh you know, they're they're really brokers. But, the fact that they even, you know, that in the industry it's accepted that we should call them consultants. Like that we're already starting at at a somewhat not transparent point, right? Because franchise consultants will work the same way real estate brokers do. Their services are free to the person using them, but they get paid commission based on uh you buying a franchise in the same way when you buy a house, you know, the real estate broker gets paid. Um so yeah, there's a lot of misaligned incentives and and it's not necessarily, you know, uh the people who are helping facilitate franchise purchases don't necessarily have skin in the game um with the franchise owner, the person who buys the franchise and actually has to build the business and run it. Um and yeah, it it just hasn't evolved yet. Um so again, just with my newsletter and my socials and and even the podcast I have, right? Part of it is just trying to bring more transparency, you know, bring a lot of the data that is out there on the internet, but it's hard to find, bringing it to the forefront and making it easy for people to uh understand the opportunities that are out there. And just to double-click on this uh the franchise consultant franchise broker um player in the industry. Those consultants often so they position themselves as helping you, the prospective franchisee, choose the right franchise opportunity for you based on what you like, based on what your resources are, based on how much time you want to give it, etc. You know, your ambitions. Um but the part where they're not maybe so transparent is often they will only represent a handful or I I don't know how many, but uh a subset of the 4,000. So they're not looking out across the entire franchise universe and truly handpicking the very best thing for you. They're going they've already kind of they're working with certain franchises and they're going to they're going to shoehorn, if they have to, you into one of the ones that they're already working with. Point A, point B is the compensation is enormous. I think you were just were telling me just yesterday that it can be like 25 grand. So if they bring a new a new if they so much as introduce you, the prospective franchisee, to a franchisor, that can mean five figures, 20 grand, 30 grand. Do I have that right? Yeah, yeah, that's uh that's accurate. And yeah, look, it's not to say there are good brokers out there who want to sleep at night and aren't going to you know, force someone into a brand uh that isn't going to do well for them, but at the same time, you know, if if there's a system that can be gamed, it will be gamed, and the franchise world is no different. So there are brokers out there who are, like you said, they're they're really trying to pigeonhole uh candidates into brands that are just going to pay them the most commission and you know, uh it's hearsay, but I definitely hear things in the industry where, you know, certain brands you know, reach out to the very active brokers and say, "Hey, we'll pay you extra commission for all the leads you give us." So um yeah, it it's it's not uh it really depends on the broker you get. Again, like I have like I've been on a few brokers' podcasts. Good people, honest people. Um so I definitely don't want to like paint a broad stroke that all brokers are evil, but it's really kind of what you said in the first place is what it's not a broker it's an industry problem. Like I'm not hating on the player, I'm hating on the game, and that's that's what you said before, which is that you know, the brokers don't represent all the brands. It's a subset. Um so again, while there are good brokers out there, I I it's I I'm a big believer in incentive structures. The the brokers don't have incentives to put to push a candidate to a brand that they're not going to get paid commission on. Uh right? So if there's a great brand that isn't in their what they call their brand inventory, there's a you know, they're probably not going to mention it even if it's a great fit for you. Um so again, I think that's a problem with the industry at large, and uh yeah, you know, the the industry needs a neutral a neutral player in in that sense. Right. Right. Well, um you seem to be making getting some traction in in in becoming that voice. Uh at least judging by your Twitter following, which is awesome. Appreciate it. All right, let's let's get into uh ETA franchising from the perspective of ETA, entrepreneurship through acquisition. So one question is, you know, one of the the appeals of acquisition entrepreneurship is that you're buying an existing business, and that business will have processes, that business will have a brand, that business will have all sorts of pieces in place that you, the acquisition entrepreneur, get to step into. Now, you will likely refine those processes and and make all the changes and and, you know, bring new energy and new ideas, etc. etc. But a big part of the appeal is that a kind of you're you're starting on second base or whatever. It it doing a franchise is actually in some ways it's it's um it's a similar pitch. And I'm talking about now not buying a franchise resale, I'm talking about starting a location from scratch. If I go to a franchisor and I say, "Hey, I want to I want to, you know, be your your location, have a location of your franchise in Arlington, Virginia." You know, the the benefit to me is that they're going to give me the playbook, they're going to give me the processes, they're going to give me all this infrastructure. They're if they have a national brand, if it's a if it's a mature franchise, they'll have a national brand, they'll be doing the marketing spend, and so on. So, you know, I'm I'm getting a lot of that stuff. Um you know, it's it's similar kind of like starting on first or second base kind of argument. Different, but similar. So, why buy a franchise resale when I can um when the kind of whole pitch of doing a new location or new territory uh is that I'm getting this infrastructure for my franchise fee? Yeah. Uh well, I I'd say it has similar pros, you know, similar benefits to buying an independent small business. Um right? Because it's already cash flowing. It already has a built-in customer base. Uh so, you know, theoretically, right? It it just it's quicker. It's it's quicker to cash flow just in the same way uh the typical ETA playbook is. Uh you know, even though you are right in what you said, if you're building a new franchise location, yes, you you're given the playbook, you're given the infrastructure um to go pick a site, potentially have to do some construction and modify it. Um you know, but you're given the grand opening marketing plan, and uh you know where to put your job postings and where to and how even like job descriptions and like what you should say in your job postings. Like they they're the franchises are very specific, and you know, the good ones it's pretty built out uh ops playbook, so to speak. So um yeah, you're given a ton of help, but still like you're a new brand to that area. Unless you're a national brand, like you said, it's likely going to take, you know, some time still to build up a book of business regardless of what the brand is and what industry you're in. You know, it's just going to take time you know, even uh generate Google reviews and things like that that matter for online discoverability. So um I've heard it time and time again from franchisees that I speak with and, you know, that have been on my podcast where um new new builds just it it takes longer to really cash flow, um which means it takes a little longer to return that investment. Um the pro is though is that if you're trying to do a new build, uh you know, there there's availability in your market, as long as you present yourself well to the franchisor and have the capitalization to be able to afford it, then you can do it. But if you're trying to do a you know, a resale, trying to purchase an existing location, there's no guarantee that the seller's going to sell. Um there's no guarantee that they're going to sell to you if they are selling. Uh so it's it's a bit of a different dynamic there. And and from the the stories that you're that you know of acquisition entrepreneurs who buy a resale, uh do they did they kind of target a particular franchise that they wanted network that what do I call it? A franchise or franchise brand a brand, I guess. Did they target a particular brand that they wanted to build their empire in and then try to kind of go talk to owners or or what? Like if I is is that how it would look? Or is it more like they were doing a broad search? It like a generalized, you know, search acquisition entrepreneur search, and a franchise opportunity came up, and they said, "Oh, yeah." They assessed the business, and they thought it looked good, and and then they and they kind of just did it that way because the opportunity presented itself. Yeah, I'd say it it varies from like entrepreneur to entrepreneur, but just to give a few um tangible examples, you know, there's one person uh his name is Michael Horowitz. Um he was set on buying a a a well a national fast food brand. Um so he spoke to all the big boys. Spoke to McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, uh Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, and uh eventually settled with Wingstop um because depending on the brand, uh some were not very receptive to a first-time franchisee buying into one of their brands, right? You know, those are seriously competitive systems. They have thousands of franchisees at their disposal who could potentially gobble up a new opportunity and just add it to their portfolio. And you got to, you know, again, back to incentives. Think about it from the franchisor's uh perspective, right? It's easier for them, you know, well, if you own a Burger King, it already it's easier for them, you know, if the guy down the street is selling his location, Burger King corporate wants you to take it over cuz you already know the system. You don't need to be retrained on anything. You don't need any extra hand-holding. But a first-time, you know, buyer into the system, never mind a first-time franchise owner, uh right? They might need some more support, and it's just more resources from their perspective. So um that incentive, you know, structure is important to recognize, but uh this person in particular, Michael Horowitz, former investment banker, well-capitalized, um you know, was very professional in his approach, and uh you know, was able to get face time with a bunch of those brands, which that in and of itself is impressive cuz again, like if you go on to Wendy's franchise website, and they'll every franchise website has a form where it says, "Interested in, you know, learning more? Reach out to us." Uh new brands w- or they should be answering those inquiries cuz they kind of need it, right? They're trying to grow and become a national brand. Uh but these, you know, old, very famous brands, that's not going to cut it for the most part, unless your application is like off the charts. Uh but realistically, right? You got to find another way to get connected with with someone on the inside. So, um there was a lot of scrappy work from Michael to really just link do LinkedIn, cold emails, cold messages, all that type of stuff, get his resume, you know, in front of these people. Um anyway, settled on Wingstop um cuz he was just looking a- a- at it broadly at the fast-food industry and wanted a nationally recognized brand that had just an established presence. So, uh that's what he did. Then there's another person, Brian Beers, who Wait, let me let me can let me ask you a question, Wolf, about about um about Michael. Sure. So, did he when he finally got the attention of the Wingstop whatever internal team or I what what what are the names of the teams inside these franchisors that deal with the franchisees? The BD team or what? So, uh they're typically called like the the development team. So, it helps, you know, if you're going to like search this on LinkedIn to anyone listening, director of franchise development, VP of franchise development. Um yeah, franchise development is like the department that is effectively just franchise sales. Um they also, you know, typically do some marketing functions uh too, but like those are the people who if you're engaging in due diligence with a brand, it's the development team that you're speaking with. Great. So, when he finally got the attention of the development team at Wingstop, did he then was what he was trying to convince them to do or to open the minds to is to if there was a franchisee looking to sell, to send it to him? Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And I think he's, you know, he owns 20 today, and he's only been in the system for 3 to 4 years, I believe. Owns 20 today. His first he bought seven at a clip. Um I think it was an owner in Ohio, and he's based in New York. Um So, yeah, it was honestly, it's pretty impressive that he that he did it, right? Cuz remotely owning and operating is very different than being local in market. I think I'm pretty sure he does fly out there, and he probably did fairly regularly in the beginning. Um but yeah, that's just one example of how it can be done. There's others who, you know, hone in on one brand, and they have their own reasons for that. So, happy to share that, too, at some point. Sure. Um okay, great. And then so go go you were going to speak about Brian Beers. Oh, yeah, yeah, we can do Brian. Yes, so that's an example, right? I I believe his father actually owned Midas, um the oil change, you know, car franchise. Um so, that got him in into the system. And like it's almost like applying for a job when you're talking about these big national brands, right? Like y- you y- you'd kind of just need an in to get an interview if you're trying to get a job at a competitive company. Um and then, right? You kind of have to do the work a- a- you know, presenting well during the interview, but if you just know one person to get your foot in the door, that can make a world of difference. Um so, Brian had that with his father. I think he even acquired one location off his father, and then learned the business really well by operating and owning that one location. And because he's just knows Midas inside and out, he's been able to rapidly scale up, and he's at like 30-plus locations now, right? And um the beauty of franchise ETAs that he's just reached out and networked with the, you know, a thousand or, you know, multiple hundreds uh of operators around the country, and made it known, "Hey, I'm a high-performing operator. I'm looking to buy more. If you're ever going to sell, let me know." And it's an old brand, which means there's people who are ready to retire or have just been in the system for long enough where they're they're ready to, you know, have a liquidity event and cash out a little bit. Um so, yeah, Brian basically gets off-market deals all the time from existing franchisees within that closed network. Um and yeah, it's been a it's been an incredibly effective way for him to scale. Well, and let let's talk about that. So, Brian, yeah, he did find himself in the system because his father owned Five or six. some number of locations, yeah, five or six, exactly. Um so, that's great. Uh but um you're you're seeing on Twitter now, uh in fact, from from Brian, people talking about the rolling up franchises. Um but that if if you're not already within a particular system, uh you have that rather large hurdle to get over, like we're talking about. You have to, you know, find the opportunity, you have to sell the franchisor on you, and and so on. W- But uh at the same time, you can see how doing a roll-up of franchises would would go a lot faster if you can get through some of these initial hurdles. Would go a lot faster than doing a roll-up of independent businesses. Um what are your thoughts on on this on this fantasy, on this on this meme? I think I it's realistic. I just think the uh time horizons have to be in line with you know, maybe the skill set of the owner and operator. And what I mean by that is just something I've noticed is a lot of the first-time buyers, whether it's a new build or they acquire an existing location for their first franchise, uh it's very common where they say they, you know, they need to work in in the business uh for at least a year, some as much as two, three, four years. Um again, that depends on the brand, depends on the operator. So, um you know, take that as you will, but um by doing that, right? They get to know the business inside and out. They They do every job possible in the business, so that that makes it easier not only to understand the business and how it really all functions, but also even hiring and just gaining the respect of employees. It's like, "Hey, I've done all these jobs. I'm not asking you to do something I haven't done." Um but they only start scaling after they really feel comfortable and confident with being an owner of the business. And going from one to two is is difficult, right? Cuz now you have two of the same businesses. It feels like double the work, that's that's what everyone says. Um but once you kind of figure out two, it gets easier. And, you know, I've had owners of F45 to Orange Theory to Five Guys, everyone kind of says it, you know, it doesn't even matter the industry. It's just once you understand multi-unit operations, and that starts at two, from there it gets easier. So, I guess the the advice really is just just don't try to scale too quickly, cuz if you don't have a solid foundation set, you know, you're you're going to run into trouble later on. Mhm. Mhm. That's great. And what about the idea that like um yes, it sounds great to be within the Midas network, and to then just like have this, you know, existing, really clear, really easy-to-access pool of potential of owners, potential sellers that you can just reach out to, and very quickly, you know, Domino's can start to fall. But on the other hand, that pool is is quite narrow. Yes, there are a lot of Midas Midas locations around the country or around your region, but there are only so many. Whereas, if I'm doing landscaping businesses, independent landscaping businesses, there are many, many more, presumably, out there that I can that are all potential candidates. So, while your targets are much clearer and easier to reach if you're within a franchise network, it's also like, well, you know, if I'm in Arlington, Virginia, and I'm trying to buy Midas locations around the DMV the the DC metro area, you know, and if I, you know, maybe there's five of them, 10 of them, I don't know. But, you know, probably what if nobody wants to sell? Like maybe all 10 of them are perfectly content, thank you very much, to keep owning their Midas franchise. Well, then then there goes my entire strategy. So, it seems like there's kind of a lot of risk to just, you know, buying into a franchise and putting your future into this one, not only industry, but particular brand without knowing in advance that indeed, you know, people are going to sell to you. Yeah. Is there any way to Is there any way to mitigate that risk? You would talked about old franchises versus new franchises. I know that could be one way to mitigate that risk. So, elaborate on that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you're you're dead right. There is risk. There's no guarantee that sellers are going to sell sell in general or sell to you. Um generally speaking though, again, I mentioned this earlier, right? Most franchise owners, you know, it's about 54%ish uh own multiple locations or multiple brands. So, there's a good chance, is what I'm saying, is that you'll have a multi-unit owner if you are going to even be be able to buy into the system. You know, it's it's less likely that you'd actually be buying into the system with a one a single-unit owner. Um but even if that's the only opportunity, um look, I mean, there's the potential for uh you don't have to be in market. I know it sounds intimidating, right? But I've just I've seen it done multiple times um where the owner is not the operator, and they're not locally in the market. And assuming that uh you know, the location isn't totally underperforming, hopefully you can retain kind of like a GM or manager that's already at the location. So, uh I guess what I'm saying is you don't necessarily have to limit yourself to your local geography. I do completely understand why as a first-time buyer, though, you would want to. Uh just it just feels safer. Um but yeah, there is also the flip side of this where, hey, there's you don't have to go with a mature brand. You can go with a newer brand. And um again, there's the buy versus build dilemma there, where you're going to be building locations for the new brand. So, again, longer to cash flow. Um but the guarantee is that there's is territory. There's white space, you know, I you know, through my last you know, when I was at that franchise incubator one of our brands was a pet brand and it did very well in our first year. We had a lot of for whatever reason we had a lot of Orange Theory owners that kind of flocked to it and I got to know the Orange Theory system pretty well and their owner base and particularly their kind of like their founding franchisees if you will where you know, I spoke to franchisee number three, number six and I think 15. And that's a brand you know, was only founded in 2010. Today's got you know, close to 1500 locations worldwide. One of the most successful franchises ever in terms of how quickly they've grown and how well the system has done. So really impressive brand but I just got to see kind of the benefits right of that other Avenue which is buy an emerging brand because it's emerging you can negotiate during the due diligence. Hey, I want to secure this wide territory and they're going a lot of the emerging brands because there's this give and take right where they want to show new franchisees every year like hey last year we just brought in this many franchisees that are going to build this many units. It makes for a more compelling sales case right versus if they said oh we didn't sell anything last year then that's a red flag to a new franchisee. So you have more leverage is what I'm saying as an as a franchisee coming into an emerging brand and so you should be able to transfer that leverage into securing a large territory and right a lot of these Orange Theory owners they secured 10 20 I met some that owned over a hundred franchises across the country. And so and that's a that wasn't just from their upfront territory negotiations and some of those ones went on to acquire other franchisees and things like that but the point is right if you secure that territory and as long as you pick a legitimately good brand with a differentiated business model that can perform well. I mean that that's that's very valuable because you can secure it for cheaper right like they're going to and the franchisor is going to ask you you know, they're going to say hey all right we'll give you 12 locations that you're going to be going to have to build it over you know, five or six years or whatever the number is. Um so yeah, it it it's got its pros and cons. And and but the flip side there or the con would be the risk that you buy into you know, it's an it's an emerging franchise and and it falls flat. Um how do you you know, what are the best practices there in terms of evaluating a franchise that's really got momentum is going to keep with that momentum and maybe a more a more concrete way to ask this question is with Orange Theory which started at you said I think you said in 2010 what year was it where it was clear that its success was assured or you know, pretty clear and nothing is ever assured but you know, was it 2011 or was it not really until 2015 that you know, what what's the sweet spot there of of when you want to get and it's not too late that that that it's so popular everybody knows and and then you know, they get to pick they get to hit really pick their be choosy about their franchisees. Um but so there you know, it's kind of risk reward where where's the sweet spot? Yeah, I'd actually focus I mean look time matters right just to see how a brand evolves and is it is it a phase you know, you know, I think like everyone's asking the question now are cookies a fad slash you know, are they going through just a phase where the country is obsessed with cookies but is it going to die out and that's led by Crumbl Cookies but so the time that a that a business has been open matters but like for evaluating a franchise and this is my personal criteria. I'm probably you know, I have a higher risk tolerance than most I think but if I see 50 if there's 50 locations open around the country, you know, we're talking different markets doesn't necessarily have to be like at the southern tip of Florida and the you know, most northern Northwest tip of Washington right but you know, you want to see different markets and some just variability there to see like oh hey this can work in two totally different markets where both of them it was the first introduction of that concept into that market. To me 50 is more than enough where if the and as part of the diligence you get to talk to the existing owner base. Um and that that is the most valuable resource. So full disclosure to everyone I am not the most valuable resource. No one at the franchisor is the most valuable resource. No broker, consultant, whatever you want to call them. The best people you can talk to in any due diligence of a franchise is existing owners. They are on the inside. They already have their skin in the game. They made the decision. They've done the leap of faith. Um and you know, I even have one uh contact in the industry who he's he speaks to the owners in New Jersey and New York every time as his first phone calls cuz he just thinks people in the Northeast are going to tell you how you how they feel right away. Um and that seems that seems to have worked well for him honestly. So it's just funny anecdote if you if you want to use that strategy. Um So existing owners and New Yorkers. Yeah. All the owners in New York. Yeah, look if they have 50 locations you know, seriously if a brand has 50 locations open and operating and the you know, unit economics look good from a ROI perspective. Um you know, to me that's that's more than enough proof of concept assuming there's no major red flags like with the executive team or you know, again uh uh trying to think you know, maybe if there's supply chain risk or something like that but to me that's more than enough proof of concept. Okay, that's great. 50 and kind of diverse markets. Um So so that's kind of about assessing the viability of the concept as it grows. What about the just kind of let's say it's a more mature franchise it's not necessarily one that's like just in its early growth stages but it's still I assume there are stronger and weaker franchises. And I come across one on you know, BizBuySell or whatever. The business looks good but I'm not sure about the health of the franchise brand. Maybe I've heard of it it's not McDonald's it's not you know, marquee but maybe I've heard of it maybe I haven't. What are some of the ways to assess the health of the franchisor and and the franchise brand overall? Yeah, so there's a document called the franchise disclosure document. Um if you're familiar with like equity investing every public company on the stock market has a 10K. Every franchise has an FDD. It's actually a regulated industry despite all the crazy sleazy stuff that can happen. The Federal Trade Commission does regulate it. So they mandate every franchise from McDonald's to you know, franchise 4000 the the one that you haven't heard of yet that only has one location. Every single brand needs an FDD. And it includes a lot of key pertinent information on that brand and one of the one of the sections of it covers the the growth rate from the past three years. So it'll show you how many franchise locations were open three years ago, how many corporate locations were open three years ago and then it moves up you know, two years prior, one year prior. So you get to see if it was a net negative or or positive. You also get to see closures slash terminations right because while a brand may have grown in total by uh you know, a hundred locations over three years. That's not as good if they close you know, if they closed locations in that time frame right? So it like there's one section that just tells you the net. But there's another section that tells you also if there were closures involved. So you want to see a positive net growth rate with as little closures as possible as well as lawsuits. There's a section to see if there's been recent lawsuits which could include franchisees suing franchisors vice versa trademark infringement if like the franchise is in trouble with another big company that is saying hey you're infringing on our trademark. So bunch of different things like that but yeah the FDD can be used to evaluate a lot of a lot of those things and I I the only caveat I'll say too is like the bigger a brand gets some closures is is to be expected honestly right if you have hundreds and hundreds of locations you know, it's probably going to happen where there's a closure or two possibly a lawsuit or or a few of them and that's not necessarily like a deal it shouldn't be necessarily a deal breaker. Um when you have a business at scale happens for lack of a better way to say it. But yeah, I mean the top franchises still have very very low failure rates and very little lawsuits. You had mentioned unit economics a couple minutes ago looking at that at a franchise concept. Um I know that I don't know if unit economics but I know that there is some pretty good financial information available in FDDs generally right? Can you can you talk to us about that? Yeah, so there's a section it's called item 19 which is the section where a brand can share financial performance representations. So the unfortunate part is it's not mandatory for a brand to share anything there. Um so it can be blank and not say anything about the financials but some brands do choose to be transparent. Typically right I view it as a if a brand isn't sharing it it could be a red flag. If it's an emerging brand to me that's definitely a red flag cuz if you're you know, only have five to 20 locations and you're not showing anything in the financials it's like hey why not? And nine out of 10 times there might be some mental gymnastics in the response from a franchisor but it's typically cuz they don't think they're that compelling. Um however, a massive brand you know, you have so many franchisees that you could reach out to that I don't necessarily blame a brand for not sharing anything cuz there is some like liability when you do include financials where you you can only then market and discuss uh the financials that are in that FDD as a sales representative. Um so by excluding it, you actually take some liability off your plate as long as you just say, "Hey, we don't have anything on our FDD, can't talk to you about it, but hey, here's a list of 500 franchisees, speak to as many as you want." Um which so, you know, I'm not necessarily saying I love that. I'd still, you know, most franchises are charging a percentage-based royalty, uh meaning if you make a million you know, the standard is 6% for a lot of brands. So if you do a million in revenue, the franchisor gets $60,000 of that. So based off that, every franchise that's doing that should be able to know what their average uh revenue per franchisee is. Um so like I personally think they should still be disclosing revenue. Like there's there's no reason not to, they mathematically can do it. Um but, you know, again, that's why you'll see big brands, it's not as as big of an issue in my mind if they're not sharing anything, but newer brands, if they're not sharing financials, that that's uh you know, you definitely want to inquire about that if you're still interested. Mhm. Great. That's great. Anything else on the on the FDD? Where where to get them? I know there's state websites or something. It it's like they're available, but it's it's kind of weird. So explain that to folks. few websites that charge for them and it could be anywhere from 30 bucks to $250. So I would recommend don't pay for them. Uh you know, use uh the state of Wisconsin has has a good website. Um I would just Google where to find FDDs and there's this this first Google result, it's been this way for years at this point, is a lot of franchise law firm that lists they link to the four state websites that do the best job of uh providing FDDs and that's Wisconsin, Indiana, Minnesota, and California. Uh again, Wisconsin's the easiest from like a I mean, you still brace yourself, you know, if you're tech-savvy, you're going to be appalled by by having to do this, uh but Wisconsin is the most user-friendly um of all of them. It's still rough and I mean, that's how I get a lot of my FDDs that I cuz I all screenshot them and put them in my newsletter, um the financial sections, so uh people can see like straight from the FDD what what a brand is putting out there. But uh yeah, that's the best spot, it's free. Um it has most of the brands uh that you'd want to look at. There's probably some that you won't find there, especially the newer ones. Uh there might be some of them that aren't registered in Wisconsin, so Wisconsin won't have their FDD. But uh yeah, I I would say, you know, uh that that's your starting point. And and the FDD is going to be this it's the the same document in California and in Wisconsin. It's Yes, exactly. Yeah, there's no change version. Yeah, nope. Nope, no changes. Turning now back to more mature franchises. So those are probably the ones where if I have a roll-up strategy, I'm going to have to look because in a new franchise, you're going to be it's just too young to be rolling up much existing existing stuff. Um but if I want to own Midas locations, I'm I'm kind of going to be forced to do a roll-up because it's all claimed territory and they're all going to be resales. Um how is there do you have any kind of tips or strategies on thinking about these these mature brands and how you might uh approach a roll-up strategy? So I think we touched on it a little bit earlier, which is breaking into the system. You you got to figure that out. Um but once you're in, again, especially if if you're the first-time buyer, just just don't scale too quickly, which I think naturally, right? You kind of if you're struggling with location number one, it kind of prevents you from even figuring out a second location, but um yeah, I mean, beyond that, right? It seems to be just I hate the word, but good old-fashioned networking. Uh you know, get in front of the franchise owners that might be selling. Um you know, I know Brian Beers who we've talked about from from the Midas system, uh he prefers for them to be in the local area. And, you know, again, that's a massive brand, so he's been able to find 30 uh locations for sale within a somewhat reasonable drive. Um but yeah, it's really about getting getting the uh getting the attention of the owners and uh I would suggest, right, you know, using seller financing seems to be a way to get deals done quicker. So uh Brian leverages that a lot. It's less less capital-intensive for you as a buyer. Um I can get a deal done quicker and back to just like right, once you know the location uh very well and know the brand, the business inside and out, you can then pretty quickly identify if another, you know, another Midas location is worth buying. Um you know, Brian's very confident in his ability to do turnarounds cuz he knows how to he just knows how to operate his business inside and out. Um so, you know, he can very quickly He said he said within like 6 to 10 minutes of looking through someone's books, he knows if he's going to buy it or not. Um so yeah. And if I want to buy kind of pursue a roll-up strategy within an older, more mature uh franchise, is is my first line of attack what you were saying what was it Michael Horowitz did? Do should I be reaching out to the franchisor their development teams first or do I approach some local owners uh first or or it it doesn't matter, but do both? So I think it depends on your capital situation cuz like Michael Horowitz, right? He he I think he may have even raised some money cuz again, he's an ex-Wall Street uh professional. He may have raised a little bit of money with some Wall Street contacts uh cuz like he acquired seven at once. That's a pretty large transaction, right? And it's Wingstop, it's not like a cheap um you know, like a Wingstop to build costs, you know, probably close to a million dollars, so um there's definitely more inexpensive franchises out there. Uh so yeah, your financial situation depends. Um there's definitely nothing wrong if you're going for the resale route, I don't think it's uh I mean, right, people do that in the traditional ETA model, right, where uh rather than just like looking at BizBuySell on these websites, you know, if you like the local laundromat, why not try to ask for the owner and say, "Hey, do you want to sell?" You never know if you don't ask. So you can definitely do the same thing with franchises, but um if you're open to operating remotely uh the way Michael Horowitz did, um and you're just looking for brands nationwide uh or locations nationwide, then yeah, you want to talk to the development team cuz they'll have uh a full scope of what's going on in the entire system and you know, there's a there's an owner uh of Five Guys named Lucas Mitchell who he was a manager in I think the Nevada area. He he he managed eight for the franchisee and then he realized, "Hey, I'm managing eight. Like I can definitely own some of my own and and get more financial upside." So he reached out to Five Guys and cuz they saw he was a good manager, they they were, you know, very willing to help him and he ended up moving to Arizona to buy five uh Five Guys locations. Oh, wow. Today he owns like 15 or maybe maybe close to 20, I'm not sure. But uh yeah, uh so there's multiple ways to skin that cat. Mhm. Mhm. And if let's say I I see on BizBuySell a franchise business or a number of locations being sold as a package, given that there's all this kind of behind the scenes, there there's the there's the there's all of the current owners of this franchise, there might be, you know, other would-be franchise owners like Michael, like Lucas, the the stories that we're talking about who are kind of chomping at the bit to get in, do you need to should it be a red flag if if I see a package of of, you know, a number of of franchise locations come on BizBuySell? Like why like the the classic BizBuySell question, why hasn't somebody savvier more better like better resourced better connected bought these first? Why are they coming out to the public market? Is that a red flag or maybe yes, maybe no. Yeah, it's I mean, I know that's the annoying answer, but it is probably the right one is maybe yes, maybe no. It definitely is a case-by-case basis. I mean, yeah, like it it we've been talking about some big brands, right? Midas, Wingstop, Five Guys. If, you know, a cluster of Five Guys or Wingstop locations end up on BizBuySell, I'd be like, "Wait, how is that not going somewhere else?" Cuz they're just such a big brand and there's there's I mean, there's institutional operators in some of these brands, right, who own hundreds of locations and it's run by private equity at the end of the day. So yeah, like if I was seeing something like that on BizBuySell, I would definitely be setting off my uh you know, internal alarm system, but um you know, it it it is case-by-case though. I mean, for most of these transactions, it's the business owner's first time ever selling a business. So they're not And a lot of people there's like right, this podcast is and even mine, like I'm showing people how to buy franchises. There's not a lot of education out there for like, "How do you sell your business?" Um so like a lot of these owners, right, and it's at the tail end of a decade to potentially multi-decade journey. They don't necessarily know what they're doing they're doing, so they yeah, they it's very reasonable that some of them do just contact a local business broker and of course the business broker's going to put it on BizBuySell. So yeah, it's definitely not uh I wouldn't just scratch anything off the list on BizBuySell, but um you know, the the proof is ultimately in the pudding. And by that I mean financial. Right. Right. You had said at the top how, you know, when most people think franchise, they think fast food, they think restaurants. Um and you and I had talked about offline about how, you know, restaurants aren't your favorite category even though they are kind of the most visible and the most even even popular among prospective prospective franchisees. Um talk about that a little bit, why maybe you don't like franchises as much despite their popularity. Excuse me, restaurants as much despite their popularity. And then are there any other categories that you would want to call this, you know, a searcher audience too? Yeah. So, uh food franchises, especially fast food, um you know, there's some QSRs with higher margins. Um but like the standard fast food brand is going to cost over a million dollars. I mean, the big players that we've talked about like Wendy's, Burger King, McDonald's cost, you know, two to four million to build. And the margins just aren't that great. Um you know, a good food franchise after paying royalties is doing uh 10% ish. Mhm. Um so, it's just not high mar- like there's better, you know, margin businesses out there. I mean, there's uh children's services or fitness brands that are doing pushing 25, 30% margins. Um so, yeah. I I just think I think a lot of people that's what they think of when they hear franchise. So, they don't necessarily explore the entire world of it. Um so, yeah, there's just a lot of good businesses out there. So, um I I will also say though, right? Like there are fast casual brands that are doing uh higher margins than than fast food. So, it's really like the QSR sector where I'm just um I I'm not like super hot on it, but uh you obviously can do well, right? Like I we've spoken about Michael Horowitz. If you own 20 Wingstops, you're doing you're doing okay for yourself. Yeah. Um but uh yeah, but I mean, beyond that I think you know, there's a lot of there's non-brick-and-mortar franchises that are fantastic businesses, you know, home services. Uh I've seen some amazing brands in like insulation, you know, putting insulation in houses to uh restoration, you know, like water restoration uh in houses, as well as senior care services are also, you know, there's some very good um ROIs in in some of these brands, you know, I think I covered one Safe Home Care uh a month ago, and yeah, just really, you know, not super expensive uh investment levels because there's no real estate that is required unless you want to have your own office space. Uh and yeah, it's just it's just a high margin service business, which you have to be more intelligent about how you scale, but it's still can be done where you can have a pretty large operation. Um and uh And all all of this analysis of yours is coming from the FDDs of these of these various franchises? Yes. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. And a few of them, I mean, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say it seems like the analysis of a good franchise category to get into is is this is not dissimilar from just what like a good category period to get into. So, if home services are appealing to ETA broadly, they're also going to be appealing to, you know, franchise-based ETA. So, similar analysis there. Yep. Yep, completely agree. The um what were some of the mistakes that you saw franchisees uh make when you were in your previous role and seeing, you know, both sides of the table, both franchisees kind of making decisions about what franchise to go with, and then of course on the franchisor side you you you saw um a lot of activity as well. Are there, aside from just being drawn I think just being drawn to restaurants cuz everybody likes restaurants and knows restaurant brands and thinks of restaurants when they think of franchising, were there any other kind of classic mistakes that you saw um naive would-be franchisees make that the audience could benefit from avoiding? Yeah, I'd say that uh the the common two are just uh franchisees buying a business that they were a customer of. Like like that was their primary reason is that they loved being a customer, whatever that was. Uh I've seen it work out, too. So, like but it's just from a philosophy standpoint, I wouldn't recommend it. You know, like I interviewed an F45 owner. He was in Australia on vacation and uh fell in did a workout at F45, loved it, and then brought it back to Ireland with him. Um and it it you know, I'm sure he he was a pretty seasoned entrepreneur, so he probably did the financial analysis and said, "Oh, it all checks out." But I have seen people who pretty much just they have their mind made up on the first phone call. Uh and it's just, you know, you got to kind of separate your emotion from the the logical and rational side of just doing the financial analysis. Um so, yeah. Uh obviously, it's great if the business you love is also a fantastic investment, but uh that's not always the case. And um secondly, uh not really knowing what business you're getting into. Um and the people who said it best were they owned about seven Massage Envy's. Um you know, they are full stop in the hiring business um cuz massage therapists are actually becoming more and more competitive to come by. And they didn't necessarily realize that. And if someone thinks about owning a massage business, you know, maybe they're really into wellness or um you know, some forms of, you know, health and whatnot, but um you know, they were just really I mean, they they've done great. Um but they they were just surprised, right? At just all like how much of their time is literally just spent on recruiting and hiring, selling the vision of why Massage Envy versus another brand and why their system where, you know, they have seven locations and maybe there's more room for upward mobility, and all that stuff. Um so, yeah. Just understand I guess that like the industry that you're in with your business isn't necessarily reflective of like what you're really going to be doing like uh on a day-to-day basis as the owner. Yeah, such a great point. Mhm. Uh I I when I hear that about Massage Envy, that kind of just tells me that there's just a ton of churn. So, you're also like in the retention business. I mean, Exactly. Um Wolf, so let's close out with a if you can, just a couple of um kind of names that you like and that you don't like. Some kind of like hot or not. What are there any particular franchise brands that are really interesting to you now that aren't, you know, long since established and inaccessible to to the acquisition entrepreneur, but ones you'd want to put put on the radar of the the folks listening? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sorry, so you're looking for like mature brands or or newer brands? Um Uh well, let's do both, but I guess mature let's start with mature brands since those are going to be the ones where uh ETA is more likely to occur. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say uh um kind of going off of Brian Beers and with in the the automotive industry, um there there's a franchise that does like exterior repairs and decals called Tint World. Um been around since the 1980s. Uh pretty pretty great unit economics. Um Anytime Fitness actually in the fitness industry is uh you know, it's surprisingly, I thought of it as like an old big box gym. Um but they've actually done a good job evolving, and I've seen uh one franchise owner especially doing a really good job with the ETA playbook within that system. Mhm. Even uh if you're in the south, uh I know I said no, you know, that I'm against food, but Zaxby's has some really good unit economics. Um I kind of got tipped off to that by speaking to uh the owner actually helped the top store, and they have 900 locations across the country, primarily in in the south of the United States. So, you know, depending on where you are, um I've never even heard of Zaxby's. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, see, there you go. Um But it's established. It's just regional. It's it's more regional, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Um and obviously, like chicken is ultra competitive right now. I mean, there's new Nashville {slash} hot fried chicken concepts popping up every day. Um so, you you got to be a little careful there, but um also Maaco in in the in the automotive industry, uh another big brand um with just, you know, good economics. And these are the types of businesses again where at scale, at multi-unit operations, you can generate some some very good cash flow. You know, that reminds me that there's a an important question I wanted to ask you, Wolf, um but we're going back into the weeds a little bit. One of the things that I have uh heard from my guests who did ev- eventually kind of open their minds to buying a franchise, um was that they that looking at it like an individual unit uh or two, there just wasn't enough meat on the bone. Like one location might only be cash flowing $100,000, let's say. And many acquisition entrepreneurs, searchers, if their the kind of ideal sweet spot, now this can't always be achieved, but it's like 600 to 8 or 900,000 dollars in SDE. Um that's another conversation, but that's kind of the range that you hear thrown around a lot. So, $100,000 of SDE is, you know, red flags all over the place. You're buying yourself a job. You're buying yourself a job that doesn't even pay that much. Um and so, but as I talk to you and I kind of little learn about this world, I'm I'm I'm feeling like maybe that's not uncommon, and so that just goes to show why these players own so many locations because to even earn a healthy salary as the owner, you need to own multiple locations. Um so, you know, respond to that. Is does does $100,000 per location seem low to you, or is that kind of like, "No, that that that sounds about right. That's why you got to own five. That's why you you got to own 10." No, that that that sounds uh very reasonable. I mean, it definitely varies on the brand, like especially the ones I was throwing around. Like I I know Zaxby's, um you know, they have like 900 locations open, and I think they're um they were showing like over 400K in average income based on around 700 locations, um which is crazy high for food brand. But they again, it's regional, so like there's just so many dynamics at play with that one but they do like two and a half million in gross revenue. But yeah I mean look generally you hit the nail on the head it that that is why they all own multiple locations cuz again like I said I think I said it early on. To own to to really be earning high six figures or into seven figures you just going to need a good number of locations and and it does depend on the brand. Right like you know five locations might be enough for one brand but another you might need 10 or 15. But it can be done I mean I've seen you know uh You know there's a guy who owns 20 Mathnasiums if you know them it's like a math tutor. Yeah sure. Yeah. Yeah yeah James Temple he was on the pod a few weeks ago actually. Oh no way yeah that works with them in my past life. Okay yeah. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah James is great I mean his story is one of the ones that really piqued my interest about the ETA model in franchising. Yeah yeah he's great yeah he's he's a legend in the Mathnasium system. Yeah I bet. Yeah but you know and then that's a 100 to 150,000 dollar investment to start one and you know he he owns the top performing store at least he did the last time I talked to him and I think it was doing over a million or something crazy which is for that concept specifically that's insane. But you know your standard Mathnasium is not cash flowing that much I don't know maybe it's like 80 grand EBITDA I'm I'm this is pure speculation folks. But I just don't think it's like the average location in America isn't really generating much EBITDA so yeah like that's why you need You know for James he's got up to 20 and he's looking at other brands at this point so but yeah it's a rinse and repeat game. Well and I I just want to really highlight this point for people because when you hear so-and-so owns 10 locations 15 locations that sounds like quite an empire but if they're each only earning 80 to 100,000 per year that's a million dollars in EBITDA which is great I mean that's still a huge amount of money for an individual but it might not be quite as much as you think if they have you know 10 or 15 locations so and and also to highlight the other thing I just wanted to to reinforce here is that if a location is doing 100,000 dollars yes by itself that business isn't appealing but if you go in with a roll up strategy then maybe you justify it to yourself like well I'm just going to get my you know get my toehold here with the idea that I'm going to own five or 10 now there's all these risks associated with that that we've already talked about but maybe maybe these maybe these locations shouldn't be judged as individual standalone businesses they should be judged more of the potential of owning multiple units and that's really that's really the story that you're wanting to build for yourself around getting into a franchise. Yes that's like one of my you know inevitable truths of the franchise world is you can't make a ton of money unless you own multiple locations. But yeah I I definitely don't want to say like like 100 grand is just reasonable but you know like just to kind of caveat with the brands I mentioned like Maaco is around 250k per per location from what they shared in the FDD so it it can be higher like I don't want to people thinking like oh you can like every brand is only making 100k per location it it is brand dependent again some some look some brands are doing north of half a million in in EBITDA they're probably not they're they're probably pretty pricey brands you know to to build out but regardless there's variability you know so just just take each brand on its own. Great and Wolf just any any brands that you're not a fan of I had mentioned Subway offhandedly in our pre-call and you said run the other way from Subway any other any other ones that have a bad reputation for people who know? Honestly Subway's really the one that I'm like just they just have to and I feel bad cuz there are good franchisees in that system so I'm not trying to knock them at all but from a franchisor standpoint they've done a lot of shady things in their history and you know they just need they should be held accountable and I don't think they are you know people just see commercials with Tom Brady and all these celebrities and the reality is is they've screwed over a lot of people taken advantage of immigrants who couldn't necessarily even I mean this literally who couldn't even you know fully read the didn't pass basic English proficiency and yet they were signing franchise agreements so just a lot of shady practices and they just didn't have any regard for the health and wellness and success of franchisees they just sold locations everywhere to boost their own royalty stream even if it meant people lost their shirts in their business and you know locations cannibalized each other so yeah I just you can make a lot of money and not be unethical and Subway just didn't do that so I don't like that franchise that's really the only one I'd say though. Okay anything that we didn't get to Wolf or about franchising from an ETA ETA perspective or are we good? I think we're good yeah look look just go to the Wisconsin site start familiarizing yourself with FDDs yeah I'm happy to be a resource for anyone out there who who has more questions. And other than your Twitter handle is there is there any other place you direct people or is that really the best place? That or I'd say wolf wolfoffranchises.com that there you can find everything from my podcast to my other social accounts to my newsletter if you want to subscribe it's twice a week but yeah wolfoffranchises.com is kind of the home for all my work. Great well it's it's great work thank you very much for taking the time to to help educate the acquiring minds audience Wolf and we will see you on Twitter thank you sir. Awesome thanks Will appreciate it.