If she were to walk out of this marriage, what does that do? What are the political implications of of that? The threat goes to the Epstein of it all. And I certainly read that news conference. Among the many possibilities as a threat and as a threat to him. Yeah. You know, the first thing it was it was you're not going to pin this Epstein stuff on me. This Epstein stuff is your problem. You got us into this, and Congress should talk to the victims. Yes. Which to me, read Congress should investigate you. You, my husband, the president. Michael. Joanna. So we thought that we might do a deeper dive into the marriage today. Well, it is the topic de jure, and definitely when. I mean, it's an interesting thing. What do I mean? Everybody's focused on this, and I think everybody senses that there is something to learn here and something amiss here. Well, and certainly when she came out and she said, I don't know, Jeffrey Epstein or very trivial. Jeffrey who? Jeffrey. No. Epstein. Attention to Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, when she came out and gave her bizarre speech and then when in fact, she said that the people who are writing about her and talking about her have no respect. And then you said, that's me. That's me. Yes. We wondered if she's, in fact, signaling that she wants out of the marriage, and that she's really drawing a very clear line between her and her husband. Well, let's just begin with with how bad it might be or what? What does it look like? What do we what does it look like? What do we know? And we know that they've been married for 21 years at this point. And we know that she does not live in the white House. And and we know that. Do we know that she doesn't live in the white House? Yeah. Do we absolutely know that? We absolutely know that that the overwhelming amount of her time is, is spent in, in New York City. And, and we know when we knew this in the first administration that they do not share a bedroom and that there may be many reasons for for that. Would you want to share a bedroom with Donald Trump? Oh, God. It's with the hamburger and the hamburgers. But it's interesting that that that apparently they are the only the only first couple not to share a bedroom since John F Kennedy and Jacqueline Kennedy. Okay, but that was because he had back issues, right? Well, I think there were other issues there too. But but yes. So but the think the point is here is that is that there has always been an acknowledgment, almost bordering on a public acknowledgment that this marriage is not like other other marriages in general, but specifically other white House marriages. And this is I think the message is partly we don't have to we don't have to pretend what's the pretend about. And and then I think it's, it's the, the, the other message is that we're doing things differently. I mean, that Melania Trump doesn't want that job. And that's very clear. And well, I don't think Melania Trump wants a job. Does she? Yes. No, I think she does want a job. And I think she is now very specifically courting a job. She wants to be Melania. She wants to be the focus of a of a marketing juggernaut. She wants to be well, she wants to be rich, a brand. Okay? So she wants to be I mean, she is building. She is trying to build a business for herself right now. And I think that that's part of what's of what's going on here. But the other thing is, I think she wants to do that to further separate herself from from the first lady job and also from her husband, I suppose. So she's trying to do what Meghan Markle wanted to do a little bit when she was in London, got married, thought that she would be able to run a sort of company alongside being a royal. Now you can't do that in the UK. The Queen. That's that's a good way. Yeah that's good. That's a that's a very good parallel here. And it's also for this also seeing the same value. Right. I'm a famous person. I'm a super famous person. How do I monetize that. Exactly. That's exactly what it feels like going on. She is famous. She has a look and she might be able to capitalize on it. And this is a lost opportunity. But the problem is you really can't capitalize on it. While you are the first lady in the white House, which was the issue that Meghan had, you can't do it if you're also being paid by the royal family. And and that's the platform, right? So, so Meghan and Harry decided to separate from that. Let's, let's, let's leave that part of the rocket ship behind and we'll get off to to fame in, in California. And that that's what the Melania thing certainly feels like, which is, you know, the, the, the white House in that job is something I have to get away from. Well, and it comes with rules. It comes with protocol, it comes with public performances I might not want to do. It's got a lot of boring things attached to it. If you're going to play the role of First Lady, right, you're going to have to spend time with military families. She doesn't want to do that, and she certainly not going to be helping with children's literacy because she's barely literate herself. That's gone to usher Vance the she has now her books podcast for children. So what does. Yeah. And let's go back. You do. Well, let's go back to the first administration, which should have been a, you know, a moment like we should have be having this conversation. Then she didn't move into the white House or even pretend to move into the white House for six months. Right. Well, now that that was because Barron had to finish school, right? Well, there's been a lot of other other children in the white House. And, you know, it's it's I mean, people, kids shift schools. This is the kind of thing you become the president of the United States, right? That's going to be something you're going to have to adjust to. So and that that clearly didn't happen because she didn't want it to happen. And then and then she got to the white House. And even then she really didn't live in the white House. And her parents, she moved her parents down to, to a in to Maryland. And there was a house, they had a house there, and she basically lived there. And Barron basically lived there. So before he became Trump, before Trump became president the first time, were they living in separate apartments in Trump Tower? I mean, the the great value of Trump Tower is they all seem to have their own apartments there. Barron, I think, has his own apartment. She has her own apartment. Her father has his own apartment there. Yes. That is that is. Yes, apparently. And I don't know that for a fact. That's what in terms of the my lawsuit against the First lady, which we should of course talk about what we the, the indications that we have in the, in the evidence that we uncovered is, yes, she has a separate apartment there, so she may not have wanted to move down to the white House because she didn't want to have to be in the same close living quarters as Donald Trump she ever comes. No, I mean, I think I think that that is obviously part of it, that this that the marriage that they have is not a conventional marriage. Now with within the white House, you know, I mean, I once I once had this and I've written this, I, you know, I had a discussion with one of his close aides and I said, you know, what is really going on here? Just trying to get some indication. And I and I really thought I would just get a sort of, you know, that sort of kind of wink, nod kind of thing. And I said, what is going on here? You know? And this person looked at me like I was a, you know, moron and then and said, she hates his guts. And and I think that is the that's the understanding of people around him. And she, she actually hates she doesn't want to be there. She doesn't want to have anything to do with this. This is just a complete arrangement. And in this and yet another person said, when, when I broached this subject, said that when she is around, she's treated like a guest. So when she turns up at the white House, she's treated as if she's a guest. Exactly. She hates him. And this was also true in Mar-A-Lago. So when they moved to Mar-A-Lago, also, the she really was not there and she had relocated her parents nearby, and that's where she lived. Which begs the question, why didn't they get divorced when he lost in 2020, they moved to Moral Largo. If she hates him, why is she still involved in this? What would be then a charade? You know, I'm pausing. I'm pausing here because we don't know. I mean, in all marriages, have their have their own even bad marriages have their own logic to the, to them. You know, one of the other people in the white House when I pursued this said said, well, you know, I mean, I mean, it it may be it it may be an incredibly successful marriage on its own terms, so that the emphasis she's young obviously be on its own terms. I guess, but she's young enough that she could remarry. Well, she well, but she may not want to remarry. Number one. She may not need to remarry. The financial arrangement may be to her benefit and also look at what she is trying to accomplish. Now. She is trying to take this relationship she's had with, with, with Donald Trump and with with the the president of the United States and turn it into something of her own, of considerable value. Well, certainly she got paid. Was it? I know she was asking $10 million for her memoir, Melania, which most of the first ladies right after they've left office. And she got paid. Well, it was 40 million for the Amazon documentary, Melania, Melania the movie. And she got, we think, 28 of that. And then there was an extra 35 million spent in marketing it. So again, money that normally a first lady, if you think of Hillary, if you think of Laura Bush, if you think of Michelle Obama published books which were very successful, but after they'd left the role of First lady. So she's actually monetizing it while she's in office. And she may well have looked at Meghan and thought, well, Meghan and Harry got a big Netflix deal. The Amazon documentary is supposed is supposedly just the first of a whole series of things that Amazon is going to finance and and platform. Oh, so she could be making products as we speak with Amazon. Yeah. No. And she's assembled she's assembled a full team. I mean, she now has her own separate spokesmen spokesperson who has been the the front person on trying to explain what that bizarre press conference that she had week before last. There's an enormous amount of, of, of decorum that's extended to, to presidential marriages and families, even this one, which seems glaringly to be different from all others. But so the question is, why does it matter? And why should we care? Well, and also what's interesting about it is we see it again. It's it's hiding in plain sight. Has watching his his her swishing his hand away her face after the first inauguration where she's smiling at him and then she just looks utterly depressed. I mean, the moments when they're together, she never seems to be laughing very much. The big brimmed hat, the very clear body language between the two of them, which makes it feel like she wants to be distant. When he leans in for a kiss, she leans back. Even her dress, which I know we've we've commented on before. For the second inauguration, it was a white ball dress, and it looked like she'd redacted her body. And it must be with those black zigzags on it. But also very difficult to be married to a man who's been so publicly accused of sexual abuse, publicly accused of rape, publicly accused of grabbing them by the pussy and enjoying it and saying they love it. And also the Stormy Daniels and Interregnum and also the Epstein of it all, and of course, the Epstein which we should return to. But, but, but let's, let's establish because there is this thing. Why are we talking you know, everybody is even presidents deserves some privacy. Their personal life, their marriages. Why does it matter? So I mean, I think I think the, the, the the answer is because because one's marriage is important. If you're if you're if you're not if that is if that's a pressure in your life which it certainly I mean maybe maybe it isn't. Maybe they do have this perfect arrangement in which they, they're, they're not really they're married only in a as, as part of a, as part of a construct. But the other aspect of it is it not that it probably, you know, you know, Donald Trump is a, you know, what does he do? You know, if you have no one to turn to a lonely guy. Well, we know what he does. He posts on Truth Social and he calls his friends or he calls connections. Yeah. No. Exactly. And then there's the other issue of is this a sham? I mean, you know, voters, do they think that we are all fooled by it voters, the American public, we sort of deserve to know this. Well, also, he's just, as we discussed last week, sequestered a plane from the Department of Homeland Security for Melania at a cost, I think, of $108 million. So there's also the gift of it. Yeah. No. Is a Trump family, you know, trait. Right. And clearly, I mean, one of the things that it seems it seems evident is Melania saying, well, what about me? Everybody else in the family is making money off of this. This is not going to last forever. I would like to make money to yeah, that sounded Swedish. That wasn't very good. Not very Slovenian, but of course she wants to be in on the money. And also the interesting thing about Melania's modeling career is that she wasn't a very successful model. So she did catalogs. She did sort of, you know, slightly soft Pawnee things for GQ, but she wasn't a supermodel at all. And so I wonder if now she's trying to make up for that. She knows I think she is. Now she for those big shoes. Now she is a supermodel, right. And, you know, in the Melania movie, which is now on Amazon's now streaming and which I have now seen. Is one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen. I mean, it's certainly one of the most bizarre things ever to come out of a white House. I mean, it is first thing it's it's content free. It's just a promotional film. It has zero consequence, zero meaning zero point. It as a, as a promotion and, and and you would think that at, you would think that this would be a kind of monumental red flag in terms of, in terms of, in terms of the country's civic life. Well, and I think I said at the time, because I immediately went to see it, I couldn't wait to see it, that I thought it was unintentionally revealing precisely because it's content free, because there are no friends mentioned in it, because everybody she talks to is on the payroll, because she claims that she's involved in the event planning and the dinner planning and the menus and stuff. But in fact, what you saw was David Mohn, the, you know, well known event planning event planner, explaining to her exactly what they were going to do. And she wasn't even he wasn't even looking to her for acknowledgment or or approval. He was explaining to her what they were going to do. So it's as if she as if there's an entire staff doing everything that the First lady would do, and she comes along and they just tell her what they've done. No. And the projection here is, is, is really as like the worst person in the world. The shallowest, the the most. A person who has no certainly no regard for her position for the white House, for her husband's position. I mean, just a I mean, she makes Meghan Markle look kind of saintly. She makes Meghan Markle look saintly. She does seem, however, to have protected Baron. She wouldn't let Baron be a delegate during the election, even though the white House had actually come out and said Baron's going to be a delegate. And then she said, oh no, he's not. She has actually protected Baron from a, you know, a press that's largely left him alone. Let me let me. Yeah. I mean, I think that this is true, but just to to the delegate point, because I have a there's a moment there. And so in the convention in the 2024 convention, she there was a thing she was she had a big speaking part. And they regarded that the, the president's staff regarded this as as important that she was you know, he is he has a lot of issues there. And, you know, and we had just been through the Stormy Daniels trial. This was important that the wife come out and say he's a great guy. And very notably, she didn't come to the trial. She was completely absent. Exactly. Another point that she had been absent through the entire campaign never showed up for one of his courtroom appearances. They needed her. They felt they needed her there and and they didn't. The the the spot was was they had they had selected the spot for her. She was going to be one of the headliners and they could not get her to commit, could not get her to commit. And then she wouldn't do it. And and they had to they had to cajole her to actually even appear. And then her terms for appearing and she sat in the VIP box on the last date was she would only come out into the box after Trump had left. She would not sit next to him. So interesting. So she came. But she did come out and embrace him when he was on the stage, and he looked incredulous to see her. Everybody remarked on it. He was kind of like, oh, she's here. He looks like he is intimidated by her. Well, that's this other thing which I think we should discuss, and I think it's a fair topic. Is she a threat to him? You know, there's a you mean what does she know? Well, what does she know? What can she do? What kind of leverage does she have? I mean, I mean, she is sort of, you know, the Manchurian Wife, potentially interesting. I mean, she's kind of she's kind of one of the unexploded landmines in this presidency. An unexploded landmine in the presidency. That's interesting. And how does she get on with the with the grown kids? I don't think she gets on with them at all. I mean, I think she's she's I think they've stiff armed her and she stiff arms them. I mean, these are separate, separate worlds here. I mean, the first thing that Jared and of a world I don't think much in interacts with the Don junior world and the Melania world doesn't doesn't interact with with either the, the the Jared in the Ivanka world or the Don junior world. And Trump still looks very impressed by her. I mean, she's elegant, she dresses well, she's got fabulous hair. He seems still to, at least with appearances, look very smitten by her. As if he can't believe that he's landed her. Is that fair? Well, I think Trump has landed a lot of models, so I think. Well, so. So I think it works. I mean, I mean, it may work just fine for him. You know, she's there, she shows up, she's dresses dress as well. She's not. She, she looks the part. They have this arrangement and and that's that's it. And he has I mean I mean after I've said that, well, maybe it maybe it's, you know, in his mind his marriage is falling apart and maybe he's suffering. That probably gives him more credit than he deserves. He probably doesn't. Another variation on this is he doesn't care at all. I mean, this this works. It's it's clearly transactional. They both get he gets what he wants. And so that's fine. She comes out, she looks the part, she looks good and the part him look. Yes. The part is that he wants he wants a wife that people will say, oh my God, I wish I had that wife and people in the white House. I have a hot wife. That is the that is the message that he wants to send, right? I have a hot wife, which is what he said about you, said that you had a hot wife and you do have a hot wife. I would like a hot wife. And you've said that people in the white House tell you that he's post sex? Yeah. You know, from the beginning, this is now almost ten years. People in the white House have been have wondered about this. I mean, it's an issue for them because what if, you know, I mean, everybody knows Donald Trump's reputation. And so what if he were he were caught. What if something came out? What if how far away are they from scandal? Now, this seems a reasonable question when you're dealing with with Donald Trump and most of the people I have known in the white House around him, who have had a pretty clear view of what's going on, have always said nothing. There's nothing there. He doesn't, you know, he goes to bed at night with the hamburger and and they have said, well, he's, you know, he's he's not a young guy. He's kind of, you know, they've said he's post sex and he's big fat guy. It's not that would not be unusual. Certainly. And it's the for most for many of the people who know his reputation, then the only explanation for why he's in bed with a hamburger at night. And she's had enough of him. Well, I mean, it certainly it certainly. What I mean by that is she's probably not post sex. So. But it seems like she's post sex with him as far as we know. I don't know why I'm saying that, because we've no insight into it, except that she doesn't stay there and very much at the end of the documentary. And we've discussed this before. It's very clear they are going their own separate ways. And she is saying that very clearly on the documentary, you know, both, subversively and it's pretty obvious. He says good night, then wanders off one way. She goes off another way. Yeah, I don't I mean, there's, there's no there's not another scenario, if you think about it, to say, okay, this is a, this is a, this is a marriage that has that in which, in which on some level, on some level or other, each spouse is supportive of the other. That, that, that, that, that a spouse fills a need for the other. I mean, it just doesn't all of the. All of the measures of any kind of, of, of measures of a conventional marriage are just not there. And they don't appear to have much intimacy. I mean, no, no, they they certainly not. But get back to the idea of, of of, of the, of the threat because that becomes I mean, it's a weird thing. It almost becomes a kind of a national security issue. You know, it's it's always it's always, you know, your subject. I mean, in security terms, it's always are you blackmailing? Is there information out there that your enemies could use? What if your enemy is your wife? If your wife is saying, that's so interesting, and if she's saying, I'm going to, you're going to do the following. What if your enemy is your wife and you said she could be a potential landmine? What are the things that are going to trigger her? Well, she could say, I mean, what happens to if if she were to walk out of this marriage? What does that do? What are the political implications of of that? You know, I mean, the Trump construct is, is, you know, holds together all of this, this these conservative, religiously conservative evangelicals, but they've put up with the fact he's been married three times. They, they, they have. But do they have a do they have a limit here? And they've put up with the Stormy Daniels Daniels trial. But what if partly I think that they have because he has this marriage this well I think they partly have because he gave them the Supreme Court and they got what they wanted, which was well, there's two there's there's the leadership of these, the political leadership of the evangelicals. And then there's ordinary, ordinary America, which actually is, I believe, convinced that he has a good a that's a good, strong family life. My my Trump in-laws actually believe this. Your Trump in-laws. Yes, I have Trump in-laws. So they're Trumpers. Your in-laws are Trumpers. And they believe that Melania and Donald are intact as a couple. Yeah, right. And I think that's what do they make a few? Well, they're a little confused by that. But that's another episode. That's another special episode. But but they, they're convinced that the Trump marriage is a real marriage. It's not a sham. It's not an arrangement. And that she is fulfilling the duties of First lady. Exactly. But let's get to this threat, because I think the threat then goes to the news conference of the week before last. The threat goes to the Epstein of it all. And I certainly read that news conference among the many possibilities of which there's endless speculation about. I read it as a as a threat and as a threat to him. Yeah. You know, the first thing it was it was you're not going to pin this Epstein stuff on me. This Epstein stuff is your problem. You got us into this, and Congress should talk to the victims. Yes. Which to me, read Congress should investigate you. You, my husband, the president, and and it also was a was a kind of thing. She opened up the one area that I think that Donald Trump is exquisitely vulnerable on, which is that period in the 1990s, early 2000, you know, a period of of, you know, I mean, lots of, I mean, girls models, the whole his whole connection to the modeling industry. Jean-Luc Brunel, Paolo's Empoli, who's in the middle of all this now this this is and and and then we come back always to the question, why would she do this? Why would she call attention to this particular moment in time? And she met Donald Trump in either 1997 or 1998. They get married in 2005. He stops being friendly with Jeffrey Epstein around 2004 2005, which we've discussed. She says that she wasn't involved with Jeffrey Epstein, barely knew Jeffrey Epstein, and yet she we know that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were incredibly close friends through that whole period. Exactly. So. So what is that? What is she exactly saying? As I said, I think that she's saying, that's your problem and don't put it on me. You better protect me in this. And what do we know of the prenup? We don't know anything about the prenup. Okay, so we went. I know about Murdoch's prenup. I don't know about Donald Trump's prenup. So where is your lawsuit with Melania Trump? Okay, well, just to quickly recap. Melania Trump threatened me with $1 billion lawsuit because I, I talked about her connection with Jeffrey Epstein. Right. And I'm not the only one she has threatened. She threatens almost on an industrial scale. Anybody who makes this connection, she so she. I received a letter. If you don't retract, we're going to sue you for $1 billion. This was ridiculous. First thing, nothing that I said was could be remotely construed as libelous. Number. That's number one. Number two, never before in the history of the American presidency as a first lady and and her husband sued journalists for saying, for saying anything, not to mention perfectly reasonable things. So I turned around in consultation with my lawyers. I've long time, a long time relationship with First Amendment lawyers because I've been doing this for a long time, and their view was that this was this was she was actually in violation of the law herself in in New York State, you can't you can't use libel laws as a, as a means to intimidate perfectly legal speech. So we suit her and and this is now in court proceeding along. It is before a federal judge. There's a lot of complicated procedural issues here, but a federal judge will rule shortly on their motion to dismiss or move the case to Florida, which would be more advantageous to them, or our motion to remain the case to where we think it belongs, which is in the state of New York, and we think it belongs there, because I live in the state of New York, and Melania Trump lives in the state of New York. And one of the one of the things that we are asking the, the, the judge to do is to authorize discovery so we can prove that she lives in the state of New York. And that would involve, among other things, getting access to the Melania Trump and Donald Trump prenuptial agreement. So interesting. And of course, it's been supported by many, many, many people. Many of you are there hopefully more than more than more than 25,000 people have made small dollar contributions to this lawsuit. We've raised almost $1 million. It gives us the wherewithal to pursue this suit and to get Melania Trump. And she would have to have to testify. She would have to give a deposition under oath. All of her, all of her friends associates would have to give a deposition. And we would specifically focus on that one period, the late 1990s, early 2000, the one period in which in which the the her news conference was basically pay no attention to those years. Right. It was the most bizarre press conference. And the president himself seemed to try and distance himself from it. He was like, oh, well, she talked to me about it for two minutes. And I said, well, maybe I would do that. Maybe I wouldn't do that. And then he kept changing his mind. Yeah. And I think that message was she didn't speak to me at all about this. And she just sprung this on all of us, and nobody really knows what to do. So Melania may turn out to be the most intriguing person intermittently in the white House. Yeah. No, I think it's a it's a really central part of this story, the mystery of Donald Trump, how he became the president, why he became the president again, what is this whole mysterious construct in which some people in the country see him as a as a completely transparent and corrupt? Unserious, unfit person. And another part of the country sees sees him as some as some ideal, even an ideal family man. And she may prove to be the biggest threat to his presidency. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we have seen the end of this. Do you think there's anything about her conversations with Putin, which emerged last year because she was trying to get children from the Ukraine, back from Russia, and obviously she comes from Slovenia, Eastern Europe. Do you think there's any possibility she could be a Red Sparrow? She's not in it for for Vladimir Putin's account. She's in it for her own account. I think it's just what she gets out of this now. It's how to I want mine. You guys in the East Wing, I want mine. It's monetizing the first lady role. Yes, monetizing the East Wing, which they have taken from her. Right. And she may well have studied Meghan and realized, oh, I have to do this now. Ask for forgiveness later. Get on with it. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. I like these conversations on one theme. Sometimes. I mean, goodness knows there's enough news going on, but it's interesting to do a deep dive and just remind people how incredibly odd their marriages. Anyway, please subscribe to The Daily Beast if you haven't. We're trying to get to 700,000. We're almost there, and it's how we can bring you these conversations because we are independent media. Yeah, no, because the regular media won't tell you about this. Nobody I mean, they're scrupulous about not going there, even though she's invited them in with her press conference saying she knows nothing about Jeffrey Epstein. And even though even though everyone has known that they that they fundamentally don't live together. And even though there are pictures of her with Jeffrey Epstein and pictures of her with Glenn Maxwell, and there are emails between her and Guillén, well, so you have to depend on us for this story. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devon, Roger Reno, Ryan Murray, Rachel Pace, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.