He is in this white House. This, this, this totally alone figure without any kind of basic warp. He functions essentially like an old time monarch who has married someone for political reasons, as they as as was done. And there was really no pretense of a, of a, of a domestic life. He's generally regarded among his staff as post sexual. Here is is a guy in the white House who has nowhere to turn, who has no comfort, who has no warmth, who is alone. Joanna. Michael, did you just reverse how we introduce ourselves? I did because I was getting silence from you. I thought perhaps, perhaps you had forgotten. I had not forgotten that we're doing a podcast. I had not forgotten, Michael. How could I forget? Because we're going to focus today. We have a favorite topic. We do have a favorite topic. Trump and the women. Or I. And I think even in a broader sense, Trump in his and his personal life because that, you know, I mean, we sort of take it for granted that presidents have personal lives, and they certainly put their personal lives to a great extent, on display and seem proud of their personal lives. But Trump doesn't mean he doesn't seem to have a personal life. He really doesn't put it on display. Or when it is on display, it's it's on on uncomfortable display. And he really is a man who by all appearance is alone in the white House. I mean, that's that that kind of weird thing. And, and I think this is sort of been a theme of his life to a shoe, a personal life, that he is entirely a public man. He has he he doesn't need to have anyone to tend to him, to comfort him, to love him. And it is all about about being a singular public person. Well, well. And one of the benefits of having a spouse or having a wife. Given that it's only been men that have so far occupied the white House, is surely that in the middle of the night when you are lying there, hopefully weighing up affairs of state, if you can't sleep, you have someone to talk to. But Donald Trump does not, as far as we know, have anybody to talk to apart from his endless friends on his speed dial. But he doesn't have, as far as we know, anyone intimate to talk to. So what does he do? He takes to Truth Social, and we've spent some time at the Daily Beast chronicling how little he sleeps. By the time between his truth social posts, we know his. The average last month was 27 a day, most of which are sent out in the middle of the night. And we understand from previous conversations you've had with people in the white House that he's assumed to be post sex. So instead of having sex in the middle of the night, which you assume other presidents have done, he is true socially. Well, even more importantly, so is in the middle of the night. He remains a public person, right? Which is a great observation. Great observation. Lying in bed. He is. He is the public man. So, I mean, there are two questions, you know, what's the impact of being so alone? Must be. It must. It does have meaning. And how has he. And remember, he's elected with the support of the family values. Political constituency. Gotten away with what surely seems to be a wholly cynical regard for his wives and family. So, as you say, he's still a public person in the middle of the night. We know this because he's on truth Social, talking to us, talking to his audience, talking to the world. But there's no Melania there very clearly. Yeah. No, I mean, there's I mean, clearly we we we know that. I mean, she just made a whole movie about basically, basically not being there. I mean, she is that vacancy in central question mark in this white House and and, you know, I mean, you can't you can't miss this this question mark. She isn't there. She isn't by his side. You know, we went through the 2024 campaign and she was never there. Not until actually the final week did she make one appearance. Even at the convention, she refused to be at his side. So this was, you know, I think I think we can safely say this was hostility. Well, and there was also the moment when she appears by his side in the convention, he looks incredulous that she's turned up. He looks like he's surprised to see her there, and even then she's only on the stage with other people. And so prior to this and this was, you know, a big issue within the within the campaign, she would not sit in the VIP box next to him. She would only come in to the VIP box when he had left to give his speech. Right. Paul Usher Vance had to sit next to him in the VIP box, and she looked so awkward. And you just thought, what could they have to talk about except JD Vance? And of course, I'm sure Donald Trump doesn't want to talk about JD Vance at all. So he has this kind of kind of, you know, I mean, he is in this white House, this, this, this totally alone figure without any kind of of, you know, basic, basic warmth, basic, you know, even the people who are the familiar faces are familiar only on, on a professional basis. I mean, in the first administration, he had Hope Hicks, who really tended to him. And now he has this woman, Natalie Harp, but, you know, but he functions essentially like this, like an, like an old time monarch. You know, who has gotten who has married someone for political reasons as they as as was done. And there was really no pretense of a, of a, of a domestic life. And then he's tended to by factotum and he has no, as far as we know, sort of real intimates. I, you know, other than the golfing buddies, I mean, and then there's this, I mean, Natalie Harp, you know, has become, as Hope Hicks was, this kind of curious person in his life. We don't really understand that relationship. She appears to be hopelessly in love with him. And we've seen a series of letters that she have that she has, you know, cringe worthy letters that she has written him. But, you know, as you say, I think that he's generally regarded among his staff as as post sexual. I mean, nobody, you know, certainly there's there there is at least nobody who is, who is whispering, rushing to say nor whispering that he has a relationship, a sexual relationship with anyone. Start up your new business now with Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, from household names like Allo Yoga and Skims to brands. Just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. 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And let's just be be be clear, even in the first administration, they they they didn't share a bedroom. I mean, matter of fact. And they were the first first couple since a John and Jacqueline Kennedy not to share a bedroom. Right. And he doesn't have siblings either around him. Right. He has one living sibling, Elizabeth Elizabeth Trump Grau, who worked in banking and has really stayed out of the limelight. You don't see her on the campaign trail. You don't see her on the stage in the white House when he's parading his sort of Camelot style family. So he seems essentially very alone. All his other siblings have died. I mean, he obviously has has children, but that seems also these to be equivalent relationships of people who work for him. And of course, the child that he was theoretically the closest to, who was in the white House, who was subbing in for in the first Lady role, really was Yvonne, who has now very much distanced herself. Right. And they physically distance herself if she ever gets her island retreat in Cezanne in Albania, which we we've mentioned before and which she bravely swam to from a friend's yacht and then climbed to the top of a of a sand dune. Barefoot Michael barefoot. These were intrepid people. The Trumps anyway. Well, well. Let's go. Let's trace how I mean, tracing this strange personal life here, or strange lack of a personal life. So let's go back to to to Avada Trump, which at one point in, in New York history, they were a, they were a kind of a, you know, seminal couple. They were a seminal couple. And of his three wives, she appears to be the most interesting. She grew up in communist Czechoslovakia, and she actually wrote a rather interesting book called Raising Trump, which I was rifling through the other day to look for quotes. And I found one she when she moved to New York and she was married before Trump, she actually married an Austrian for an Austrian passport, which once she'd finished college in Jacob, she actually. Was that a phony? Yeah. Yeah, it was totally phony marriage. That was a green. A green card. Yeah, the equivalent of a green card marriage. But it was to an Austrian. So it was to get an Austrian passport. She had. So her background was growing up in, in really communist Czechoslovakia. They really had very little access to the Western world. But her escape as many people's escape was sport. Ironically, thinking about UFC and our conversation about Donald Trump being interested in sport. And she was a good swimmer and she was a good skier, and she was given the opportunity to start doing both at a higher level. When she was at school, she ended up choosing skiing, and she basically became part of the junior Olympic team, which gave her the opportunity to travel abroad. And she discusses in the book what it's like going away and just, you know, I opening to go from the sort of black and white of communist Czechoslovakia to the colors of Western Europe, where she was competing, and then she would come back and she would always be debriefed by the police, who wanted to know who she talked to. And was she, in fact, going to be a defection threat? Would she embarrass them by defecting? And she soon realized that the way to get them on side and to make the police interviews much shorter, was just to bring them either fruit or pantyhose for their girlfriends or cigarettes. So she learned very quickly how to do that. But there's a telling anecdote, and she's she's not saying in this, in this book, as I recall, that she actually was a enthusiastic informer. No, she was just saying, this is this was part of doing business. And the way to cut the interviews short, I'm saying that she was likely an enthusiast. Oh, you are, you are. I actually came away from the book feeling a bit more sympathetic to her than, well, that's why people write these books. Fair, totally fair, Michael. And of course, you as you said recently in when we were discussing Graham Platina, you should be skeptical of everybody, which is a good one. You shouldn't just believe women. You should be. I think, you know, in this kind of situation and where she came from, you really had to be enthusiastic and former or you got in trouble. Right. And, and this and it's just in just to see this as a background against, you know, the the curious thing about Trump getting involved with, with Eastern European women, women who have had this complicated immigration history and who have who have come out of of, you know, cultures that were not free, well, cultures that weren't free, and also cultures that were deprived. So both Melania and Ivana, I'm sure, felt very grateful to Donald Trump for the for the opportunity right to, to have access to everything that he had access to, but that there's an annex. So so Ivana eventually leaves Czechoslovakia, she has a fake marriage, gets an Austrian passport, but she also has what she describes as a the sort of love affair of her life with a man who then gets killed in a car accident. And it's unclear quite what happens with the accident. There's supposed to be meeting on a Friday night for a weekend, and he never shows. And then she learns he's been killed in a car accident. Anyway. She then eventually moves to Vienna and gets out from Vienna to Canada, where she has relatives, and then on a modeling trip, is sent to New York. But there's an interesting she's so she's a model also, which is another Trump theme of you. Yes. She when she goes, she's modeled in Czechoslovakia. And when she's in Canada, she, she claims she gets scouted as a model when she's at a shopping center. But there was just one quote that I found interesting. And to your point, it goes to this sense of two of his wives having grown up in a culture where they were used to being watched, and she's offered the opportunity to model in a fashion show for Dennis Basso, who's a famous for designer in New York. So she's asked if she's not afraid of being attacked by Petter. She's asked if she's not afraid of what the press will say if she's seen wearing a lavish sable coat, which is what Dennis Basso wants her to wear, and she says, no, I'm not afraid of the press. I said, I was raised in communist Czechoslovakia. The secret police watched us constantly. We were told what to eat, where to work, how to think. I came to America to experience freedom and opportunity. I'm going to wear what I want to wear and nobody is going to tell me otherwise. So that gives you a slight sense of who she wants us to think she was. And she was kind of she was certainly her profile in New York. And we're talking. So they got married in 1977, I believe. But this this is kind of an 80s New York story. And she was a, a, a portrait. And I think this was a cultivated portrait of naked ambition. So she matched him. I mean, I don't he was clearly nakedly ambitious. Was was she or or not, I mean, she, she raised children. They, they so she was in fact at spent a great deal of time at home where he did not. But, but that was the persona that she was. She was side by side with him in many of their many of his projects. The Plaza Hotel, notably. Well, she has a description of what she does, and there is a sort of notable description of her giving the children their breakfast in the morning, and then she would take a helicopter and fly to Atlantic City to oversee some of the casinos there. But, she says, during my 14 year marriage to Donald, I designed the interiors of the Grand Hyatt Hotel, and Trump Tower was president and CEO of Trump Castle, the only woman in the top position at any casino in the world that I know of, and president and CEO of the Plaza Hotel, winning the prestigious hotelier of the year award in 1990. I wrote three international bestsellers, made tens of millions selling House of Ivana clothes, fragrances and jewelries on HSN Tampa, QVC London and TSC Canada. No matter how busy I was, I had breakfast with my children every day. I sat with them at dinner every night and I helped them with their homework bracket. I love algebra before going out in a versatile gown to a rubber chicken charity event, so she's every bit as ambitious as him and mostly going out without her husband. And so, you know this, this begins the other the this, this other theme of Donald Trump is never at home. He's never with his family. He is out all of the time. And this is back to that 80s, that 80s moment. I mean, and I used to literally every time I, I, I went out there would be Donald Trump, certainly not with his, not with his wife and, and certainly on the lookout for, for other women. I mean, that's it was like a, I mean, a weird thing to see him that the way he looked up and down everybody just as a shark on the, on the, on the hunt. I can't imagine you ever being at a social event that Donald Trump would be at, because I can't imagine you were hanging out at studio 54. But perhaps I'm wrong. Were you? Where did you come across and what sort of rooms he would have been at? I mean, these were not such glamorous events. He would have been at every promotional event in New York. So whatever the opening was for whatever. And I'm sure he did many, many a night. So it wasn't as though he's living in exclusive life. He's just living a life in public. See me, see me, see me, see me. So wherever there is press, wherever there is. Page six. Where there ever there again. All of these, these promotional occasions in which the press was called. That's why the press is there. Because it's been arranged. That's why Donald Trump is there, because he's been alerted that the press was there. So just a sense of ubiquity that wherever you turned, there was Donald Trump, which, of course, is him beginning to build his brand, which as we know what happens, how the story ends. Yeah. And then this is also also, you know, the 1980s. So the Jeffrey Epstein begins to enter that picture at this at this point in, Jeffrey Epstein becomes part and parcel of Donald Trump's lack of a personal and domestic life. I mean, in a sense, Epstein represents the inverse of that. And there was a lot of, you know, Epstein would talk about about about about Trump's marriage, actually, all of Trump's Trump's marriages with an incredible disdain and, and haughtiness that, that and I think the affect was was Epstein was certainly not going to get married because he was honest about his desires and interests, and Trump was a phony about it. But but at the same time, maintain the same desires and interests as Epstein. And there was a moment I remember Epstein said said that that Trump complained that that Avani was was past her sell by date but still wanted to have sex. And that's why he had to stay out of the house. Lovely. God. Oh goodness. Well, they get divorced after 14 years, right? Which is a major story in in New York. They have a big fight over there, there, there prenup. And it's a huge one of the one of the first big divorce battles that I remember in, in my time in New York, you couldn't you couldn't avoid it. And at one point she accuses him of rape, which she later withdraws that claim. Right. I mean, it seems like a I mean, it was it was a horrible breakup. I mean, we saw it and it played out and I, you know, I can't help think that it played out because he wanted it to play out this way on the front of the New York tabloids. What was it in it for him that it played out that way? Fame, fame, just attention, potential. You know, at that point, remember, remember he was not certainly was not running for president. He was running to be the most famous Playboy in New York. And of course, they get divorced because he's now with Marla maples, another model. He's been with Marla. I mean, I think he's been with countless people, but Marla is the designated bid on the side, which begins in the 1980s. And Marla maples is another model, model, actress. She's the American of the three. Right, exactly. And then and then, I mean, I think the the dates, the dates are I think the marriage with to Yvonne, it starts to break down in the late 80s and the divorce happens in 1992, I believe. But already Marla is in in position in Marla seems to be a kind of, you know, also, you know, a woman, a a girl who's out on the town, a party girl that was almost the kind of a, you know, a category in the 1980s and 1990s. Right. And against the background of this, we have he owns modeling agency. He owns Miss Universe, as do many of his friends, Paolo's and Poly Jean-Luc Brunel, who will later die of suicide in a in a jail cell accused of the same things that Jeffrey Epstein was accused of. So this is the sort of somewhat seedy, while very CD background. The model this stuff, I think happens a little after after this. I mean, it really, you know, the bankruptcy, his financial troubles happened in the early 90s. And then he looks for other things, you know, that aren't so expensive, like like the model business. But yeah, I mean, very, very much the model business. He's marrying models, going out with models and then into the model business. And and again you can look at this. This is complete lack of of domesticity and intimacy. It's just everything even it's all a public act. Right. And then a public business. So it's a photo. It's a photo opportunity to have children and a wife. And then he has, as you describe her, his bit on the side. And then Marla maples gets pregnant. So the divorce is in 1992. He divorces Ivana and is thrilled to be free, right, to to patrol the streets of New York, but then immediately Marla maples gets pregnant or tells him that she is pregnant. And so. And Jeffrey Epstein comes comes back in at this point to say he doesn't believe her and he makes a bet with Trump. I'll give you a truckload of baby food. I think the bet was if she is pregnant and she's just trying to trap you, etc., etc. but anyway, it actually turns out that she is that she is actually pregnant, which is then becomes a whole different crisis. What it indicates is that that's where these guys live. They certainly don't live in the in the world of women. They live in the world of of men. And I don't think that and I can imagine that Trump was not happy just suddenly have to get married again. And he's just gotten gotten out of this, this marriage. And you know something? It was not easy for him to get out of. And now suddenly, he finds himself. He finds himself in a in a new marriage. Now, the interesting thing is, I mean, Marla maples may be pregnant, but he didn't have to marry her. But he does, because it's another thing about Trump that he's very much in a 50s and 60s cultural mindset still is. And, you know, he has to do it. I have to get married, although I think he says at one point the reason he decided to get married, not mentioning that Marla was pregnant, was because of the Long Island Railroad. Do you remember there was a mass shooting, and he said it made him realize how life was short. And so he wanted to get remarried. Didn't didn't we? We recently in JD Vance book, he said he was going to have a fourth child because of Charlie? Yes, because of Charlie Kirk's assassination. Yes. You're absolutely right. Yeah. So this is this must just be. Maybe this is just the kind of thing that AI produces. Or maybe it's the sort of thing that people think after they've been close to a shooting and realized how horrible and violent it is, and that life is worth living and pursuing, and love is at the center of not these guys, not not Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, Donald Trump gets married because he has to he is one of the that generation I have. I got my wife, I had to and then he has the baby called Tiffany because he's got the rights to build above the Tiffany store on Fifth Avenue. Right. He's got the air rights, I think, to build above Tiffany with Trump Tower. And so he calls the baby Tiffany. Jason, that's a real sentimental heart. Yeah, Tiffany must be thrilled. But but then understand. So he has this I mean, this domestic life is a it's I mean, I'm sure it's actually is a sham, but certainly what it is, is just a, a corner of his life. His life is a public life. His life is beauty pageants. His life is is is dating models during this period, for instance, as he marries Marla maples, he's sharing a girlfriend with Jeffrey Epstein. It it is he. He does. There is no room in his world for domesticity. He doesn't want it. There's no room for for intimacy. As in, you know, you know, being being deeply connected to another person, right. Or self-reflection with another person. And I've certainly read that Marla maples, and I've certainly talked to people who said Marla maples had no idea what she was in for when she married him, and the sort of the Trump family. And Ivana Trump hated Marla maples because of the infidelity and never forgave her, whereas she forgave Donald, she says. And then Marla maples has an affair. You know, I don't know if she if she admits to this, but he, he finds her with his bodyguard, who he then fires and then he divorces Marla. And within the Trump circle, this is a kind of this is one of the things that they actually continue to one of the few things that they secretly chortle about. The that Marla had an affair with one of Donald Trump's bodyguards. Was this at Mar-A-Lago? You know, good. Good question. And I think he found them under, as I recall the story, under a, a lifeguard chair. So maybe it was maybe it was in Florida, but maybe it was somewhere else. I think this was in 1996. This marriage did not last very long. The marriage doesn't last long. And then he's back. He's back on the market. This then becomes in the late 90s, in the second half of the 90s, the peak model era of in Trump's life. And he leaves a quite, a quite a record of his anti domestic Playboy, totally kind of despicable life. And he does this actually most often on The Howard Stern Show. So these clips which are, which are available for anybody. I mean, he is the narrator of his own debauched life. By the way. Your daughter, she's beautiful. Can I say this a piece of ass? Some of these foreign girls. You know, Mr. Trump, in my country, we say hello with vagina. And. Well, you could also say, is the owner of the pageant. It's your obligation to do that. So. So you have done that. Well, I'll tell you the funniest is that I'll go backstage before a show and everyone's getting dressed and ready and everything else. And, you know, no men are anywhere. And I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant, and therefore I'm inspecting it. You know, I'm inspecting. I want to make sure that everything is good. You're there? Yeah. The dressing. Is everyone okay? You know, they stand in there with no club. Is everybody okay? And you see these incredible looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that. So we hear some clips there, Michael of of Trump saying things which again for attention, I mean really strange things to say for a man. And yet they got him attention and sort of set him up to be the performer that he becomes on The Apprentice eventually. Yeah, no. And part of that thing, part of his persona, part of that, that stick is all about. I am, you know, I am not a domestic guy. Marriage is a, you know, is is is a is a pretense or a or a or a fiction. I'm a guy who's out with the most beautiful girls in the world, and this is always a major, a major thing with him to be with the most beautiful girls in the world. That's the point of life. That's success. If your success, if you if you made a lot of money, but you have an you have an ugly wife, that's then you fail which which he uses against Ted Cruz. Famously, when Ted Cruz is a candidate for leader of the Republican Party, when he's running for president, he goes after Heidi Cruz and just says, you know, she's really, really frumpy and and he's thoroughly unpleasant. And of course, Ted Cruz promises that he'll never support Donald Trump. And then, lo and behold, he he elbows his wife out of the way and is frantically supporting Donald Trump. No, I mean, it's a very clear thing. What kind of what kind of woman are you with? What kind of woman are you married to? And always a commentary on that, which is interesting, that he chose Mike pence as his vice president, because Mike pence comes with Mother Pence, who, you know, just I guess I can't imagine what Mother Pence and all Trump had to talk about apart from Mike pence. But you know, all there maybe. Mike, I've always wondered why Mike pence wasn't allowed to be in the room with a woman on his own if Mother Pence wasn't there. Is that about Mike pence losing control because he's got an out of control libido? Which seems unlikely, but who knows? Or is it because women find Mike pence so attractive that they're going to throw themselves at him? It's always I've always found that mysterious, completely mysterious, and they would make fun of this. Everybody in the white House would make fun of of of pence and and and Mother Pence and Trump. Trump especially. I'm sorry to laugh because I like Karen Pence, because she refused to shake Trump's hand at Jimmy Carter's funeral. But it's such a strange relationship. Mother pence, Mother pence, who had to be in the room with with Mike pence in case goodness knows what happened. Goodness knows she's anyway, Trump did not marry someone that he was calling mother. He married Melania, wife number three who's not in evidence. And we've who we've spent a lot of time talking about who, but who essentially, as you have always said, remains unknowable. She's a mysterious figure. She looks mysterious. She looks a bit like a cat. The surgery that she's had done makes her look a little cat like. And of course, she's very elegant. Of his three wives, she's the most elegant. And he is, you know, to understand that. So she's, you know, she's a model. She's part of this model circle that is most of his social life at this point in the late 90s is, is is in the model circle, which is, which is to say with models, with the men who supply models. Jeffrey Epstein, obviously a major figure here. And and then he has this, this, you know, Melania comes into the picture and it's very important to him that she's a supermodel. Supermodel is the is a kind of you know, that's the that has become the term of art for the ultimate woman. So she has to be a supermodel. The problem here is that she's not a supermodel. She's actually a kind of not all that successful of a model. So it is Donald Trump who turns her into a supermodel by pronouncing her a supermodel and then setting setting her up with, you know, with, with, with the accouterments of being a supermodel, without her ever being actually a supermodel. And I one, I wonder if that's why she's now so invested in doing things like the movie and her book, because she wants to reclaim something that she never really had, which is the status of being a supermodel. Yeah, I'm I'm sure that that's part of it. I'm sure it's also part of a part of this. You know, everybody else in the Trump family is, is is in on the grift. Why isn't she getting something here? And again, because she lives a separate life from Donald Trump. She sees this as as as, you know, she needs a she needs a separate she has a separate life and she needs to support a separate life. Right. And again, she's not a domestic goddess. She's never pretended to be a domestic goddess. There's no evidence whatsoever that she is. But she produces him a son, the fifth of his children, Barron Trump. Yeah. And she seems to be an attentive, you know, honorable, good mother, but separate from Donald Trump and separate from a domestic arrangement with the father of her child, which is how Ivana Trump describes herself as a parent, that this was completely separate to Donald. Donald had no input. She describes saying, I am going to tell you where they go to school. If anchor's going to shape in, the boys are going here. And he was like, fine, fine. He wanted no decision making responsibilities. And as I mentioned earlier, Ivana basically hands the children fully formed over to him at the age of 18, which is when he begins to take an interest. And that apparently seems to be the case with Barron. And again, in the Melania the Movie, they have a conversation about Barron where it's very clear that they don't talk about him very often together, and that Trump is talking about him as if he really doesn't spend very much time with him at all. No. And just and remember, these are the children become employees. This is this is very I mean, they, they, they become actually employees. He he supports them. He writes the checks, they do the work. You know, it's kind of like an old fashioned family business. It's it's really I mean, there's so much about Donald Trump that seems like living above the store and everybody has to, has to, has to pitch in and go to work. And he rather treats it like that. The other, you know, the other modern arrangement, you know, the arrangement that people have with their children now to see them as, as something other than, than, than functional presence in their lives is not the relationship he has. I mean, you never get a sense that he has enjoyment takes enjoyment from his from his children. You know, that conversation that I, that I've, that I've described before of him saying to people, you know, Don Jr, I wish I could take my name back. Right. And also yet that's very it's counter to the enormous photos of them, the sort of campaign photos, the presidential photos of this burgeoning family. I mean, his kids go on to have lots of kids. I think Don junior has does he have five kids? So when you see them on mass, they look very powerful and you have no sense of the I'm sure, inter Nissan war between them. It's not really a war, it's just a wall. They have a particular particular thing and there's no there's no sense within that of a family. You know of of the of a fight going on because, because, because there's lots of emotion here. It rather is. No, you know, where you stand. And if you try to take more of that, that's going to be a I'm not even sure you think about taking more of that. It's not you're not going to get more. He is Donald Trump is what he is. And yet he's perceived by his evangelism base and by, you know, the conservative part of the Republican Party and by MAGA as the ultimate family man, a man who has no domesticity. Do you think that's true? Because they kind of believe it, because this idea of because of the photographs, because they look, you know, pretty good, because Melania is a good looking woman, because even is a good looking woman. They actually look kind of the same. Same doctors, no doubt, but, well, same I mean, very similar hair. I think, you know, they look like a family that people would envy. I mean, I, you know, I understand, okay, the leaders of the evangelical movement may make a basic Faustin deal. Donald Trump is is in is an immoral so-and-so, but he's going to give us what we want, so we do the deal. But what about all of those other other people in the the evangelical Christian constituency? Don't they say, hey, what a minute. God, this this guy is a is a dog. Well. And a man who's been dogged with, I think, more than 25 accusations of sex abuse, sex assault at this point. And you know, and at this point, Jean Carroll is still going through the courts with him as the sole person who's actually taken him on in court and managed to to win her cases against him for assaulting her in the changing room at Bergdorf Goodman. So a very complicated and unpleasant relationship with women. Three marriages. His third wife clearly doesn't like him. His first wife accused him of rape in their initial divorce arguments, which she then recanted on. And Marla maples wouldn't get away sooner. Right, right. So what is? Let's get back to the politics of this all or the the the good of the nation. I mean, here is is a guy in the white House who has nowhere to turn, who has no comfort, who has no warmth, who is alone. What does that and doesn't doesn't appear to have a best friend either. I mean, when he was tooling around with Jeffrey Epstein and they were hunting for women in Atlantic City, which they used to do together, at least perhaps you could say maybe both of them were sociopaths, but they had each other. But but it doesn't have anybody that for each of them, that relationship was the closest relationship they've ever had in their lives. Well, how does this impact it impacts everybody. Because he's lying there alone at night when his, you know, colleagues are trying to get some sleep. Truth socially in the middle of the night, not sleeping properly, not having any, you know. And you have to say, I mean, let's not let's not go psychoanalyze too much, although that is really our purpose here. But but the the that certain how does that emptiness relate to that rage that need to fill the space with his own monologist on a constant basis, the need to always be right and to have people around him confirm that he is always right, and to have the people around him who have no other function but to be sycophants and to and to bend to him and to agree with him and to always be the center of attention, the world's attention. At this point, Michael, it's always interesting to discuss this stuff because it's essential to how someone lives their life and essential to understanding them. What is their domestic support? I mean, the fact that he eats burgers, the fact that he eats junk food all the time. Also, he's not someone that anyone has ever made a cottage pie for. You know, he's not someone that is moved by the scent of a roast chicken on a Sunday lunch because he's eating at the carvery at Mar a Lago. I mean, nobody's having home cooking, you know, I see your wife on her wonderful newsletter or at house. And from time to time she writes out the the menu of what you and your family are going to be eating that week. No one is doing that for Donald Trump, because he's only eating either at Mar a Lago or he's eating fast food that the chefs at the white House produce for him. It's. And just to go back to what actually, this is highly relevant to what we are doing here. That is interesting how all presidents and and the comfort they take and the family lives that, that that frustrate them or sustain them. But Donald Trump, in particularly because of the way he operates as the president, which is he? It is a government of one. It is all about what comes into his head. It is all about what he wants, what he thinks. The stray facts he's absorbed in. Everybody else is at, at at most a bit player so that what is going the life he leads is, is, has an immediate effect on all of us. And I suspect if you asked him, he would think that domestic life, inasmuch as he understands it or does think about it, and perhaps he doesn't, is somehow a weakness that the need for a domestic life, the need for someone that you can talk to, to have someone to tell things to and help process the day is actually a weakness that he doesn't need, that he doesn't need to tell anybody his insecurities or his anxieties because perhaps he thinks he just doesn't have any. He obviously has them. They just play out in different ways. No, in all ways, women are accouterments here. You know, in I mean, he does this thing when he's with, you know, these, these, these old rich guys who he hangs out with of always of a great proportion of them, if not all of them have younger wives, of which he always makes a point of, always points this out. Now, the curious thing about them is that many of these guys are so old that you are that. That the younger wives are also now pretty old. Well it's fascinating. No, the wives are a reflection on him, right? He wants a model wife because it's a reflection on him, because everything is a reflection on him. Well, Michael, we could talk about this in indefinitely. I find it fascinating that we have a president who appears to have no one to confide, no one to confide in. But as you say, he doesn't think he needs it. He is a government of one. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. We will be back with our next episode of Inside Trump's Head. Michael, do you want to thank our team? Ryan. Rachel. Heather. Neil, John, thank you as always. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.