Welcome to the program everyone. We start with something that's good for you. Support comes from Ziotics. I got to be honest with you. I like a good drink with friends, but I don't like waking up the next morning feeling like my head stayed out all night. That's why I use Zbiotics pre-alcohol. It's the world's first genetically engineered probiotic made by real scientists and it actually helps your body break down the byproduct that makes you feel rough the next day. First time I tried it was uh before dinner with friends. Tookiotics is my first drink of the night. Enjoyed myself and the next morning I woke up feeling clear, hydrated, and ready to go, ready to do the show. It just works. So if you're going out, especially during the holidays, bring Ziotics with you. Okay? So go to zbiotics.com/lemon and get 15% off of your first order with the code lemon. Lem o n. They also have a 100% money back guarantee. So there is no risk. That's zbiotics.com/lemon and use the code lemon so that you can be fresh the next day after a night out with a couple of cocktails. Good evening everyone. Welcome to Lemon Live at 5. Thank you for joining us. We're extremely happy that you're here and we're here on time. Can you believe it? Because I'm always a little bit late, but I'm not because we have um a guest on that that you're going to want to hear from. So, likes, thumbs up, you know the drill. Drill. It affects the algorithm. More people become aware of our conversation. So obviously the big story that is going on for this entire week has been uh the Epstein files and the release uh of uh some of those documents starting on yesterday on Wednesday. Uh excuse me on Thursday uh and and um so let's talk about it. I want to bring in now or was it on Wednesday? I think it was on Wednesday. Anyway, I want to bring in now Michael Wolf who is um been reporting on this and has been mentioned in the Epstein files. He has graciously agreed to come on. Michael star the star of the emails at the moment until they're become bigger stars but right now I'm glad it's good to see that you have a uh I should say it's interesting to see that you have a sense of humor about it because um you know you've been got kind of get ranked over the coals a little bit. Do you agree with that? Uh yeah I I suppose I mean not my first time to the rodeo. Um I I mean it's been an interesting pattern over so much of what I've done that you do it and then the um and then the criticism is is you got too close. He wants to be an insider blah blah blah blah. Um but um but usually I find everybody actually likes what the uh what what I come out with and I I will I am I you know I I think I have the right to insist at this point on the fact that nobody else wanted to talk about this. Nobody else wanted to talk about the connection between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. I am the one who has been banging on about this and finally here we all are on the same page. Mhm. How do you feel about people saying that you crossed a journalistic line and and all of that that somehow you were giving sort of colluding or giving uh advice uh to Jeffrey Epstein and it was inappropriate? You know, I I feel it's it's you know, from many many people it is disingenuous. How how do you think people get stories? How how do you think people get into rooms where other people don't get in? And most of my colleagues have not gotten into this room. Um actually they often don't get into the rooms that I get into. How do I get into those to those rooms? Do I do it with a certain amount of shall we say ingratiation? Yes. I would say the formula is to suck up and spit out. Um because I don't think that there's anyone who has ever said that when I write something it's overly nice to say the opposite. Well, you have not been um you know I think you've been you've been hard on Donald Trump in your books obviously, right? The fire and fury and and it's not like you've gone easy on him and it's not like you've gone easy. Oh, I mean I you know I I think we can go further. I think I have been one of the one of the steadiest critics. I have been um you know again and again four books at this point and I think my view which is also comes from being an insider's view. Remember so you fire and fury I ca I got into the white house in the first Trump administration for seven months sitting there. How how did I accomplish that? Well, you know, um, because I'm I'm I'm good at this job. And that's and I was able to come out with an account, really, the first account, an account that I'd probably argue set the tone for much of our understanding of uh of of the Trump White House. So, are you saying that people are seeing how the sausage is made and they don't like it or understand? I Yeah, I mean, I suppose. Yeah. I mean, I'm also saying in trying to level a a level of criticism at my I suppose critics or at my colleague critics that there there is a story here that other people should have gotten. This is a a profoundly important story, the connection between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. And it has taken a very long time for people to focus on this, especially the traditional media. And actually, I'll make another another point which I think is interesting is that this has been a story of the um an internet story, a story of social media. That's where this this uh this story has has gotten its legs. Um partly and you know obviously I've been involved with that but the story has been been uh you know muted at best in traditional media outlets the media outlets that you and I know so well. Why do you think that is Michael? Well, I I would say two things and again the the background, you know, so I spent this time with Jeffrey Epstein beginning in 2014, then into when Trump began to run for president and until Epstein died in 2019. And in this um um while I did this, you know, I you know, spoke to Epstein on the record. I have, you know, something on the order of a hundred hours of of um of audio recordings with Jeffrey Epstein. Those audio recordings over the past six years or so have been offered to virtually every significant media outlet and streamer uh streamers um and um and and and also book publishers too. I mean obviously obviously I am primarily a writer and um anyway no takers at all. So um what's the reason? I I think probably twofold. I think there is this idea of this of the ick factor. Jeffrey Epstein is is is too vile to let him be um a witness to anything. um his credibility is is um uh is is is something that that the traditional media has been unable to cope with. Um that's probably part of it, but the second part of it is they're afraid, you know, they're afraid of Donald Trump. They're, you know, they're on eggshells about about dealing with him, reporting about him. Uh Trump has said all along, you know, this is a this is a hoax. He continues to say this, obviously. Never met the guy. Passed them once in the halls. That kind of thing. And um and and and people, God knows why, because we ought to know that whatever he says that the opposite from whatever he says is probably the truth. Um nevertheless, they're afraid. Um, I mean, certainly, you know, in the second administration, every major media organization that crosses him gets sued. Um, Michael, I want to play something uh from a a journalist and just to get your response. Um, and this is Tara Palm Mary. She post I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. First thing I I think she's um um in incompetent and an and um I'm going to pass on that. Okay. Well, she's saying that you should release all of Yeah. I I I know she doesn't know. She's just a blah blah blah blah. Forget about it. Let's not go there. Okay. Well, let me ask you. Do you think that you should Is there information that you should release? You believe I I I have I have been the only one who has been releasing information. This is all fueled. remember, you know, so before the election, I I released a a set of recordings that had that had a Jeffrey Epstein talking in detail about his relationship with with Donald Trump. I actually expected, okay, you know, the um um the world is going to pay attention now, crickets. Um, and again and again, I mean, I've been on, um, you you know, I I had an, you know, a great deal of problems when my when my book uh about the campaign came out in um uh in February of this of this this year. Um, great, you know, I mean I mean the book went on the bestseller list and all that. There's no no complaints, but but it was almost impossible to get on television to talk about this this book. And you know, partly because Donald Trump was scaring everybody, was suing suing everybody. So, uh, you know, I went onto social media and and you know, with some um uh with some some care. Um, I mean, I had always in the past regarded social media as a not a serious thing, but I I um sat down and spent have spent a considerable amount of time on it with an enormous and most of it often about Trump at Epstein and with an with an enormous response to that. Um, and yeah, as as we've talked about about before, you know, the first lady recently threatened to sue me for what I had said about her relationship to uh to Epstein, and then I turned around and sued her for the express purpose of of being able to get her under oath and all of the people who knew Trump um to knew the Trump who knew the Trumps in that period and to explore their relationship with uh with uh with Jeffrey Epstein. So this idea that I have not released information um is is is comes from people who certainly who themselves have no information. They just they just can um um uh uh you know blow smoke on this because they've done no reporting. They were not in the room. I was in the room. Well, look, you um I wanted you to finish your statement, but I was taking back a bit about what you said about Tara. I don't have that relationship with her. She's not here to defend herself. I don't think that she's an but you know, those are your words. Th those are my words. Yeah. Okay. So, if you do you think that you should um do you think folks are saying that you should be subpoenaed and you know for by Congress or whatever. Have you do you agree with that? Well, I I think it's a terrible I think it's a terrible thing for you to say as as a journalist that another that a journalist should be subpoenaed. I I I really take exception to you and I'm going to let I'm going to let you rec but you're repeating this now. So, I'm going to let you reconsider that and say that would be a terrible thing if you a journalist were subpoenaed by Congress. So, I'm going to let you say that. Well, I'm sure you believe it. No, I mean but if if if I was subpoenaed by Congress, I would go and speak to them. I mean, but it would also depend on the situation. Michael, let me then you would depend on the situation for what I would be if I had information that Congress needed, then Well, I I I mean, I have a lot of information. That's what that's that's what I do. But I am a I am a I am a journalist. I would resist any effort by any governmental body to make me um uh compromise my sources or to um that's a whole another thing. Michael you should compromise or give up your sources protect it's not yes. So that's why we don't appear before before Congress. Okay. Is there anything before we move on? Is there anything that you would have done differently you think in Not not a thing. And and what would you think that I should have done differently? I mean, now I'm I'm on the hot seat and you're making it's a you're fundamentally accusing me of of something. I don't know what you're accusing me of. You seem to be accusing me. Just tell me. Stand by. I'm not accusing you of anything. What would you think that I should have done differently or that I might consider having done differently? Just Just tell me. I don't know but I would and it's by uh giving Don if you begin a question by saying what would you have do you think you should have done differently you no I said I said I said no no no that's not what I said I said is there anything you would have done differently the answer is yes or no no you must have had something in mind that I might have done different but I'll think about it now I actually have Don we've talked a lot on online and off offline. You've never asked me before if there is anything that I might have done differently. No, I don't think there's anything that I that's not Well, I mean, Michael, I'm not going to ask you every single question as we've talked offline. I told you that I I I know. I'm just just saying if there is something that you think that I should have done differently, then just ask it and I'll then I'll say yes or no. But I would curious about what you think that might have been done differently. If you had if you had could go back and change it, would you give have given him advice on how to get leverage over Donald Trump? First thing, let's there was let's um talk about the nature of this so-called advice. You know, I talk about the media business all the time. You talk about the media business all the time. It is our chatter in trade. This is what we talk about. this is, you know, this is what I talked about with with Epstein or what I would talk about with with you. Um, and the the the point about what to talk about with Epstein was, you know, you got to make a relationship with some somebody. That's how you get in the room. That's how you get the story. The fact that I talked about the media business, I mean I mean I mean, come on. This is like um uh of of of no harm and negligible negligible meaning. In fact, okay, Michael, listen. I've known you for a long time. We've known each other. I feel like um I'm not trying to attack you as I feel like that I'm being, you know, pretty respectful and I I feel like you are um you're awfully defensive about something that a question that I don't think you should feel that way. I know that I can't tell you how to feel. You know, I I mean, I'm partly defensive if that's if that's what I am because we had a discussion before this. Um, you know, I'm now you're now putting me in the position that that that Piers Morgan put you in after after telling me that we wouldn't have this discussion cuz I said, "Jesus, I'm I'm I'm just really I I have nothing more to say. I'm tired of this." Um, and I also feel that you're being disingenuous. You know how journalism works. You know, you've been around around you are a journalist. You've been around journalists your entire career. you know what it takes to get in inside track on a story. Um, and you know the process of, you know, you've booked guesting guests endlessly. How did you book those guests? By, you know, most often, you know, really sucking up to them. Um, you got to get the relationship before you can get the story. So, that's why I'm I I I'm not I, you know, I'd say I'm not defensive. I'm irritated. You know, come on. You're not this. You're not a numb skull and you know the score and you know what we do and you're just now pandering. Really? Okay, Michael. Okay. I I imagine it's been, you know, you should be irritated. You I mean, I I respect that you're irritated. I understand that considering the last couple days, but what we talked about, I said to you, I have to ask you a question about it. And you said, "Okay, you're a friend. Go on. No, no, no, I didn't. We could we we can read this. I I And I said to you, Michael, I've been defending you because I do not want I do not want want you to be disingenuous. Um I'm not being disingenuous. Yes, you are. I'm not accusing you of No, that's not what disingenuous means. Disingenuous means that you know the answer to this and you're pretending and you pretending that you don't. You know how journalists get stories. I just went through this um so I won't repeat myself but the relationship that we establish with sources is a complicated one and you know I I I guess if you if you pulled the lens back it would be in its details the making of the sausage you know a little a little embarrassing but that's irrelevant to what you get from it. Do you get the story? Do you get in get an inside view which I've supplied of Jeffrey Epstein's life, his relationship to a whole set of people, not to mention most fundamentally Donald Trump. Okay, Michael, listen to me. Give me a moment. I understand what you're saying and I agree with everything that you have said right there and I don't I don't I don't mean any disrespect. I look at you differently as a bookw writer who's trying to extract information from people than you have to gain their confidence in order to get that information. So I understand that. I'm not expecting from but hold on let me finish then. I'm not expecting from your book or anything some cap big Journalism. That's not what this is. So that's the conversation that we had. I don't think I'm being disingenuous with you and I don't think I'm doing I'm not not putting you on the spot. I was actually ready to move on. And that was my question to move on to something else. That's one of those. And finally, great. All right. All right. So, that was a And finally, is there anything that you would have done differently? No, I would not have done anything differently. Okay. But again, and let me let me say by asking the question, the assumption is that there might have been um that you probably think that there are areas that I should have done differently and I just want to know what they are and then I can say, "Oh, no. That was The only thing that I would even think of is as is the advice thing and that that's it. I mean, you know, I and I have not dwelled on that much of what you have spoken about. I'm not reporting indepthly on um on this story. So, that's it. That's it, Michael. All right. Are we cool? All right. So, let's let's move on. Um, I want to talk to you about um, let's see, the there was something else that I wanted to discuss with you. Uh, oh, about um, Donald Trump's reaction over the last couple of days by saying that this is a Democratic hoax and trying to get people to move on and away from this story. Um, uh, Senator John Kennedy from Louisiana was on yesterday saying, "I don't think that this story is going to go away at all." So, do you think this is going to go by the wayside? Does this have the power to end Trump? Well, uh, well, uh, you know, two two things. Um, I I'm always amazed by how much Donald Trump is able to distract from things that would have otherwise failed other politicians. Um, but, uh, this story, the Epstein story keeps coming back. He distracts from it and then it comes back again and again and again. And I think it's I I I mean I have always thought and have said that that the reason is this story is fundamental to understanding Donald Trump and that people realize that that's why they want answers. What happened here? What is this? You know, this is um uh they were friends, what and if they were friends, what did that involve? I mean, these are questions that that that not only don't go away, they really nag. So, I I I think it's not going away. I I think he will figure out something to distract from this and then it and then it will come back. Will it bring him down? Um, you know, I've spent so much time waiting for so many things to bring down Donald Trump. So many things that would seem uh evidently ready to bring him down. And here he is. So I I'm not going to go uh I'm not going to make that bet. Have you ever weighed in on this possibility of a third term for Trump? I um let me I I I Yes. And um I have two views. The first view before you answer that, I want to can I can I play Can I play um Steve Bannon for you? This is brand new. And then you can respond to it. Oh, of course. I love Steve. All I'm saying about Ted Cruz, whether Ted you think Ted Cruz is great because listen, the the the constitutional conservative guys are going to get Ted Cruz is not MAGA. Ted Cruz never lifted a finger on on the invasion of the Southern. All my point is he's a classic he's a classic Republican but he's already started his 28 campaign because they know that hey once Trump's gone uh you know and the Roger Kimbles and the Steve Bannon this is all this is all just all floatsome and jetsum yeah go ahead sir yeah I I was talking to I was talking to someone else recently I I don't think that's going to happen myself Ted Cruz and 28 but um I think it's going to be JD Vance or possibly Marco um But producers, does he go on to say he doesn't think Trump is going to be going to have a long, you know, Harold Wilson said a week is a long time in politics and three years. I think he goes on to say that that he doesn't think it's going to be a 2028 now about 28. First off, we have to So here it is. Here it is. Here it is. Talk 28. However, I will tell anybody in that administration, Jannon is saying that now because a couple of weeks ago, he was he was declaring a third term. And yeah, now I I don't think he is. And I'm wondering if you think that these emails play in this these documents play into that. I you know I I don't I mean I I think I think that the issue that the issue is that there is um there is no there is no legitimate way for Trump to have a third term. So that he's not going to have a third term. And yet having said that, the problem with authoritarians as Trump is or certainly is becoming is that they break so many rules and make so many enemies that the only way they themselves can avoid retribution is to hold continue to hold power. Um so that's the exceptional um the exceptional end of the road situation. But in the normal world, no. I think that he will um um you he can't run for a third term. He won't won't run for a third term. What he will, however, do is whoever the Republican nominee is, he will undermine that person because he wouldn't be able to tolerate someone else, another Republican being the president. and he will return to Mara Lago still as the leader of the Republican party and the king of Mara Lago and continue to act as the once and future president which he will continue to do until he departs this veil of tears sooner hope than rather than later. Anything that you didn't say, you can sack me out or whatever. All good. Michael Wolf, thank you. I appreciate it. That Michael Wolf, everyone, that was interesting. Okay. Uh, Michael Wolf is was has joined us. And then joining us next will be Charlie Warell. He's the host of The Atlantic's uh brand new Galaxy Brain podcast um among other things. and he will join us in just a moment. Charlie, you there? I'm here. Hello, Charlie. Give me two minutes. A word from our sponsors, then we'll talk about that and other things. Okay, two minutes. Today's show is brought to you by Graza. If you know me, you know I love good olive oil. I love to cook. Love good olive oil. And Graza is my go-to now. The holidays are here. And Graza is honestly one of the easiest gifts that you can give. Everybody cooks something and everyone gets excited when they open really fresh olive oil. Graza uses single origin olives that are picked, pressed, and bottled in the same season, so it tastes incredible. Their gift sets are great, too. The dinner party pack comes with wine, cooking, and finishing oils, a corkcrew, and even Evo potato chips. It is the whole mood in one box. It's a vibe. The do gift set is also a favorite. The sizzle for cooking, the drizzle for finishing. So, head over to graza.co/don. co/don and use the code don for 10% off. It is a gift people will actually use and actually love. Support for the show comes from lean. You know, I've seen every fat diet there is. People lose weight and then they gain it back. And I only recently learned that this cycle can actually harm your heart, your liver, and even your blood sugar. Doctors call it weight cycling and half the country does it. Lean is not a shot. It is a non-prescription supplement made by doctors. And the science behind it is solid. It helps keep your blood sugar steady. It helps control your appetite. And it helps your body burn fat for energy, which is how you keep the weight off. If you want to support while you eat better and move more, lean can help you do that. Go to takelean.com and use the code lemon for 20% off of your first order. That's t a kelean.com and use the code lemon. Thank you to our sponsors. Back now to Don Lemon and Mr. Charlie Warzel. He's the host of The Atlantic's brand new Galaxy Brain podcast. And on it, he tries to make sense of the online fire hose that is our information ecosystem right now. New episodes released every Friday. Charlie will be joined by different guests to ask big questions about the intersection of online culture and human behavior. I can't wait to be on this program, Charlie. That's right. That's right. Anytime. Open invite. How are you? I'm doing good. How are you? I'm great. Let me just say that. Um um I don't take anything personally, especially, you know, Michael. I understand Michael's had quite a week. So, you know, go ahead, Michael. You know what I'm saying? What did you think of the week? Because you've been paying attention to this and you've been writing about Epstein, and I'm sure you know, you know, Michael's emails and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. We we just I just published a piece over at the Atlantic about about going through all these emails and and what I what I sort of believe it to to signify. uh which is essentially uh say there in the in the headline there uh it's like if if QAnon meets VEP right because the idea behind something like QAnon right was this idea of this like global pedophile cabal that like used secret code words and went all the way to the top echelons of the government and was like extremely like a lot of conspiracy theories extremely hyper competent, right? like these people are doing absolutely horrific, horrible things and covering it up all along the way and you know behaving uh badly but also like kind of almost impressively, right? And you know, conspiracy theories are are meant to make sense of the world and give it a structure uh that it usually doesn't have, right? And oftentimes they're they're wrong and and uh and completely false. But in the case of this, what we do have is we have a lot of our nation's elites interacting with fawning with over um asking favors of trying to get dirt from this extremely well-known alleged child sex trafficker. And they are not behaving in a hypercompetent way. They are bumbling. Everyone looks extremely unimpressive. Uh it is it is just like I I I I found Jeffrey Epstein's emails are rambling. They're like barely written in English. There's all this like, you know, bloiating about science and discovery and and it just seems like he's just a complete and total diloton. And you you have these people fawning over him, right? Or like when he says something kind of gross or perverted in one of the emails, people just ignore it. They're like, "Ah, that's just Jeff." You know, and it's just like it it what really struck me at the heart of it there there's a lot here obviously, but is how unimpressive everyone in it was looked to me. Just deeply unimpressive, unserious human beings. Put it back up. The dumb truth about uh at the the dumb truth at the heart of the Epstein scandal with QAnon when QAnon meets VE. Um, wow. I I I can't wait to read that. I haven't I haven't had the opportunity to read it because I've been sitting in front of this computer and camera creating content all day. Uh but I'm glad that that you wrote it. Did you Did you have the opportunity to listen to any of the conversation I had with Michael? I I I only caught like the last minute or two. Uh our but we uh one of our uh reporters at the Atlantic just uh published an email interview with him as well. seems to sort of just Was this sort of what he said where he's like this is just what journalists good journalists do is they ingratiate themselves with their sources and and like you might not like it but that's what it looks like. Is that what he said? Yeah. Well, I think it's look I think it's here's what I think in a way that there's truth to to that depending on the type of journalism that you're in. If you are writing a tome or a salacious sort of book like that, then I think the rules are different than if you're work if you work for 60 minutes or if you work for the New York Times or I think those things are different and or if you work for, you know, let's say MSNBC or CNN, I think it's a different standard. But if you work with a book and you're trying to extract information uh in a tell- all or an unauthorized biography, then I, you know, I'm not so much for the big capital Journalism because I just think that's a whole different thing for me. And now I now the whole thing about giving someone advice, you know, it's a little however um you know, you have to do what you have to do to get interviews. people have, you know, try to get interviews from me all the time and butter me up about things and promise they promise me things and doesn't mean I'm going to do the interview, but I know what they're doing. I Yeah, I mean, I think there is like a a um an understanding in these in these worlds, right? I mean, there is this interviewing and journalism is this very odd, it's a lot has been written about it obviously, but it's this very odd thing, right? Because as the journalist you're sort of like I'm always thinking to myself like why is anyone interested in in talking to me about difficult you know subjects right so you have this you have this sort of interesting dynamic to begin with and you know I I I there is a lot of in in these circles like kind of horse trading or you know like source greasing as they call it. Um I I think you know he you live by that and you die by that, right? Because I think like one one trueism of the 21st century is that like you know you know how people say like the truth wants to be free or you know is always trying to be free. emails are always trying to be public man like like that is just something that is that is very very common and and I think what is very disheartening about this right whether I I am not here to like cast you know my moral judgment on this but we are at a time with institutions broadly and you know leaders and authority figures and whatnot right gatekeepers of all kinds where there is just so little trust there is so little trust in institutions, whether that be the New York Times or the CDC or politicians or whatever it is, right? And what these emails felt like they showed to me, it like they felt like they demonstrated like the final nail in the coffin of all of that. Like there's all these people who should be operating or people think are operating on a different level, right? Should have a little more integrity, should have a little more whatever. you have a a now former New York Times journalist saying like, "Hey, Jeff, just so you know, people are like other people are trying to dig up dirt on you." Right? Like it's not clear whether he's referencing other New York Times journalists or whatever. But it's this idea of sort of putting the source relationship over, you know, the uh the the sort of what what you're what you're there to do, right? Which is to comfort. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But honestly, I got to tell you, I there's some truth to what he's saying. You people do what they have to do to get interviews and and it's really all about the person who gets the interview. You know what I mean? If if you get the interview, then you've made the score. And as long as you extract the right information out of it and once you do speak to them, you get the if you're in the in the interview, you ask the tough questions. Yeah. I thing, you know, not paying people, but you got to say, "Hey, look, man. I love your work and you do great work and blah blah blah. You should come on because, you know, we we we're going to treat you right and I think it's going to be a happy experience for you that you're not going to get somewhere else because they're going to treat you like and they're biased over there." I mean, all those things and you know what I mean? And they may say, "Well, what would you do?" Well, I you know, I don't know what would you do in this situation. Well, look, I can't tell you what to do, but here's what I would do. Right? And that sure people do that all the time. That's how it works. He's not lying. No, I I I think this is it's it's all very difficult, right? Because like clearly what he is trying to do, Michael seems to me I don't know him personally at all, but seems to me like someone who will, you know, kind of like smile while stabbing a source in the back, right? Like like he's truly he's he seems to be in a way that is um I guess you like sort of got to respect it, right? like he wants to take down Donald Trump. And so like some of those emails are like, you know, pre the Donald Trump presidency, I'm trying to take this guy down. So he's there's like a a you know, an honesty and a pragmatism to that, right? But then there's also, you know, there's also just this this notion that when you start playing those games, it's really easy to serve yourself more than you're serving your audience and your readers, right? Like there there is information this guy um the former New York Times journalist who um the paper seems to have parted ways with because he was overly close to Epstein or like soliciting charitable donations from him something like that. think um it's very clear that like in this whole source greasing process whatever right like trying to get the big story or or whatnot or just getting closer to this person in power hoping that maybe something comes from that you can spin that as like I am just trying to get the story I'm trying to do the thing and it might not look pretty or but you know in the end the juice will be worth the squeeze there's a seems like a lot of that he just didn't write about Epstein right? Like there's a a some like reporting stuff that's in there, right? Like stuff about Trump and his relationship with Epstein that the New York Times could have reported back in 2019 or whenever, you know, whenever he was going and doing that working for the New York Times. And it's not the New York Times fault, right, that that they didn't see this. They don't monitor the emails of all of their uh reporters or anything like that, but he was serving himself over the audience, right? Over the journalistic duty to report some of that stuff at a at an important moment. And so I think it's that's where the slope becomes really slippery. Like I understand having to do, you know, what you got to do to get the big story, but it's, you know, it's unclear how much of that is just like that ingratiation to the source can sort of spin out of control and then at the end of the day, you sort of like don't know who you're really doing the writing and reporting for. Yeah. Wow. Um, there's so much to talk about. We went a little bit long. Charlie, if you will put up with me because I want to ask you something that's techreated, which is what you really cover. Um, and I'm sure you have seen this thing going around. But first, let me let me get let me get a word in and then we'll come back and we're going to talk about some tech issues that are really it's a really important thing. Sure. Support comes from Ali. Now, you all know that I love my dogs. They're my family and I want them to be healthy, happy, and full of life. That is why I switched them to Ali. It's fresh human grade dog food. Real protein, real ingredients, slowcooked, and my dogs absolutely love it. Even my picky one. So, I have noticed real changes, too. Better digestion, more energy, shinier coats. Just take their quick quiz. They make a plan for your dog, and it gets delivered right to your door. The Ali app even lets you talk to experts about your dog's health. So, here's what you do. If you want a really healthy pup, good nutrition, shiny coats, all of that, the tail wags, the little doggy grins, go to ali.com/lemon and use the code lemon for 60% off of your first box. And they have a happiness guarantee. If you're not satisfied, you're going to get your money back. That's ollie.com/lemon. Support comes from Cozy Earth. You know that moment during the holidays when the lights are low, the music is soft, and the house finally feels calm, and the holiday lights from the tree or the manure that's going, and maybe a fire, that is the Cozy Earth feeling. Their sheets are made from viscous from bamboo, and they help you sleep cooler and more comfortably. I slept on them last night. It was great. I have given Cozy Earth as gifts, and people love them. They come with a 100 night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty. I mean, that is how confident they are about all of this. Right now, you can stack my code donar's early Black Friday sale for up to 40% off. Go to cozyearth.com and use the code don. Start your holiday shopping with something people will actually enjoy. That is cozyearth.com and use the code don. Thank you to all of our sponsors. Okay, Charlie, welcome back to the program. Thank you. Um, I want to I want to play something. This one, let's play this one first. I'm going to give it to you up. Sorry, Andy. I'm doing this on the fly. I'm doing this to my producer Andy. I don't know how long it'll take him to get this in, but I want you to see this and then we're going to talk about the other thing that has gone viral. Um, but this one comes from the first AI thing that I want to talk to you about is it comes from a political campaign down in Georgia. And you know John Oaf is, right? So John Oaf is running in the state senate race in Georgia and then he's up against this guy, I think his name is Mike Collins. And Mike Collins put out this fake AI video. Well, it's a real video, but it's AI. It's not John Osaf. Uh, and he's saying, "Hey, you know, John Oaf is uh saying things that he didn't necessarily say." Here it is, and then I'll get your response. John Oaf, I just voted to keep the government shut down. They say it'll hurt farmers, but I wouldn't know. I've only seen a farm on Instagram, and SNAP recipients don't think they're at my New York or California fundraisers, so who cares? Chuck Schumer said it was a good idea, and I could never say no to my boss. And there are a number of them like that. And they actually met um to try to have this outlawed in their state legislature, but I don't think it passed or or they ran out of time. I forget exactly uh the exact context around it. What do you think? Does that make you uncomfortable? Should that be allowed? No. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's it's AI slop, right? Uh this stuff is I think just like a real plague right now. Um, I I am not so concerned about it from the sense of like like a lot of people worry about deep fakes in this notion of like we're people are going to be so duped, right? They're going to think that so- and so is saying this and and I do think that people are being fooled right now. There are people who think that it's reported. Yeah, it's it's it's new enough, right? It's new enough that that it is fooling people. It is going to get better. Um, I do think though as as a society, as a culture, we do sort of develop we like we develop a a BS detector for this stuff, right? Like we start to we start to second guess it. It takes time for society to sort of inoculate itself against some of this stuff. But where I think it actually is like cancerous to our discourse and our politics and all of that is that this stuff is so cheap and easy to make and good enough and very like eye-catching, right? Like even if you can immediately recognize it, you're like, "Oh man, they like they put out this like, you know, they're they're trying to deep fake the senator to try to get him to say these things." It's very like attentionally, you know, uh it's like attention catnip. And these tools are being used all the time, flooding the internet, flooding these platforms to in intensify these divides that already exist among us, right? Like our our politics, our discourse, it's awful. It's it's been awful for a long time. It makes everyone feel like crap. It is just this dark darkness, right? Uh, and we have all of a sudden had this tool dropped in our laps where propagandists, influencers, like you know, click clickbait, rage addicts, whatever it is, can just start to pump this crap into the, you know, conversational bloodstream, the discourse of all of us. And we are gonna, this is like going to suffer from it, right? And this is just gonna like allow the worst shock jocks and propagandists and politicians to, you know, make, you know, pennies on the dollar off of all of this stuff and for what, right? So I that's what I think is is the real thing that like I want these companies, these social networks, these AI companies to answer for because I think that that is unforgivable. Do you think it's censorship to to outlaw it or perhaps they should it should have like a something on it that says AI these ads? I think it just depends on who's doing it, right? Like I think if you are a pack or a political candidate or someone like that like absolutely like 100% you should. I mean like that's just one thing that I think is really interesting. I was talking to someone about this who's in the AI like regulator kind of space and um before the administration changed, Lena Khan was saying at the FTC was saying that like there are all sorts of scam and fakery rules on the books that are old, right? And they all should apply to AI. Like there's no reason that they they they are all retroactively or you know forwardly applied to this. And now we have a new administration, you know, different enforcement and stuff, but um yeah, there are rules here to not dupe people, right? Especially when it comes to politics, and those should just be enforced. This woman Susie says, "Boomers don't Can you back up to the last one? She said something that boomers um don't are not computer savvy or whatever or tech sav boomers who aren't computer savvy with with sight loss will believe AI." That's what Susie Jack says. But we can move on if you have a question to respond to that. No, it's Go ahead. Go ahead. All right. So, this is the one I would really want to discuss with you and it's a little bit of a longer one and it's controversial here. Now, I want you guys who are watching to tell me, would you do this with a loved one because I think that I might think that I might do it, but it's this is controversial for some folks who think like, oh my gosh, no, this is blasphemous or whatever. Um, here it is. Play it. He's getting bigger. See? Oh, honey, that's wonderful. kicking like crazy. He's listening. Put your hand on your tummy and hum to him. You used to love that. It feels like he's dancing in there. Oh, honey. Mom, would you tell Charlie that bedtime story you always used to tell me? Once upon a time, there was a baby unicorn who didn't know he knew how to fly. This baby unicorn was like your mom because she didn't know that she knew how to fly, but she knew how to do all kinds of fabulous things. Hi, Grandma. Hey, Charlie. How was school today? It was really fun. I made this crazy shot in basketball. I don't really care that much about basketball. What about the crush? Stop. Grandma, stop talking. Just tell me one thing. Look who's going to be a great grandmother. Oh, Charlie. Congratulations. She says that he's been kicking a lot though. like a little too much. Tell her to put her hand on her tummy and hum to him. You loved that. You would have loved this moment. You can call anytime. Okay, Mom. I just need a quick video. Is this like an audition or something? No, Mom. Just 3 minutes. You need my best side. Can I get a more? I can play the piano. You're actually so talented. I am. I'm absolutely I'm your mother after all. Keep going. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself? Well, I was born as a very young child. I would hope so. Go ahead, Charlie. No. Bad. Bad. Um, I saw this yesterday. I Listen thing we things need to end like right like we need like TV shows also human beings you know like things like it's I understand it's very very human right it's very very human to want to preserve the memories of loved ones like I I understand the the impulse at this right this is not an evil impulse necessarily that's me being generous But I I think that like this is trapping grandma in like a neverending digital torment nexus so that you can have her forever on your phone is not really like a healthy way to grief. Um, and I think that there I really think that we're in this moment with artificial intelligence, this sort of like boom and kind of FOMO. I I think it's a like a hype bubble a little bit. Um where people are not thinking, they're just doing. They're shooting first and asking questions later or coming up with the, you know, the the road map or whatever. I I think this is really turning a lot of people off. Like I I just looking at the comments, I mean, I don't even see a positive one. And I think that people are right. I It just seems really exploitative. Um I I'm not being as strong as I think. Like I I hate it. I hate it. I saw your question. Kill it with fire. Kill it with fire. Kill it in the crib. I do want to talk. I do want to talk. I am actually I I reached out to um the um the person who created this is a is um Oh, like a former Disney Channel star. It's like two WAI. Two-way AI or two Y. Yeah. One of the guys who who started it is a Disney Channel star. Yes. Uh actually my friend told me about it. Uh he said um friend of mine created this clip is going viral who's a former Disney star. Yeah. Yeah. So I I mean listen I actually like I reached out. I want to interview them like fairly and just like I want to hear it. I want to hear the pitch. I want to hear the like why um you know but it's it I think it is really turned people off. And I I I agree with that that sentiment. Okay, Charlie, you're not gonna like it. I don't know. I might do it. I So, because I'm not I'm I like, you know, Okay, let me just explain this. I've had I've had uh a loss of family members the past couple of years. I've lost both of my sisters and they were older than me. They're older than me. Uh but barely. I mean, one was five years and one was seven years. And so, those are the people I have like the most like the longest memory, right? goes with my sisters who taught me things and you know having conversations with me and protecting me and all those things and so it's weird like when something happens I want to pick up the phone and call her or if I hear a song from the 1970s or you know something that we used to dance to in the living room I don't I can't call them anymore or I can't text them anymore and say oh my god do you remember this song when we used to pretend we were the Jackson 5 in our living room and blah blah blah I still have my mom fortunately but you know so I might want to you know, pick up the phone and say, "Oh, man. I wish you were here. I know you're not real, but um I just wanted some advice from you to hear from you." You know, I don't know. And that's very human. This we're getting a little out of my my realm, but from my personal experience, I've dealt with with some grief in my life. And something that helped me through it a lot was this something someone told me about grief being sort of the instead of sadness, it's like the excess of the love that like the window closed on you being able to give it to that other person, right? So it's this notion of like I had a lifetime's worth of love to give whomever, right? they pass away and it's like oh the window for you you know it was it was smaller than so everything that's left over that excess and so to think of it in that way and and all I'm going to say is going through that process with myself of thinking of it that way conceptualizing it reckoning with it like I don't think anything has ever as a p as me personally made me like transformed me more or helped me sort of like it's such like a basic basic wonderful human experience to to go through even though it's so excruciating and terrible and sad. And I think that that's like the building blocks of being a fully three-dimensional human, a good person, someone who who gets, you know, better with with age and wiser and all of those those things. Like that's living. That's what we're here on Earth to do. And this is one of the things that bothers me with some of these AI tools, right? Which is like it's it's sort of asking you to put living on easy mode. And I don't think we I I feel you go towards but I know it's not real. I mean I'm not one of the I don't believe in I don't believe I would not have a synthetic relationship with the thing. It's just every once in a while like uh for me it would be it would preserve like um when my sister was in the hospital and they preserved her heartbeat so I can go back and listen to her heartbeat. That kind of thing. So I get it. I look I completely get it and and and they people are concerned with synthetic relationships right now. But is artificial intelligence really artificial? Because, you know, maybe artificial intelligence is the higher power that everybody's searching for. I I don't know. It's it gets philosophical really quick in this world. You know, like people say, oh, this is like just AI is just like fancy autocomplete. And then there's people who say like, well, what are our brains doing? Isn't that also just a really really high level autocomplete? So, it gets philosophical quick. Listen, it's it's an interesting thing. Be so quick to poo poo going to the moon. I'm just saying. Even though we know it happened in a Hollywood studio. I'm just saying. I'm kidding. I do not believe that. I do not believe that. I think it really happened. What about you? You think the moon landing happened? Yeah, I'm pro moon landing. Okay. I'm pro I do think that everyone needs to have a uh a a low stakes conspiracy theory that doesn't hurt other people that they believe in. I think that's just good. Um, I think it's probably that uh that Pink Floyd uh made uh Dark Side of the Moon to sync up with um Wizard of Oz. Like, okay, they deny it, but I believe that it's true. I have people who believe that Charlie Kirk is still alive. Whoa, that's that's that's that's intense. That's Yeah, that that's an intense one. Okay, so Charlie Warzel, Atlantic's brand new Galaxy Brain podcast. Can we talk about that? I I started listening to it um today. I didn't get all the way through it because as I said, I sit in front of this computer and and camera and make content all day, but it sounds pretty fascinating because the conversations, you're right, the conversations that I have and oftentimes, Charlie, we put them here on the show and our private streams that I have with my producers and people who are are fascinating conversations that I'd be I would love to be able to have with other people or have other people hear them. Um, and you're doing that through your podcast, which is, I think, a brilliant idea. Yeah. I I found that in my in my reporting, like I will have this really long like it's not that like I'm like censoring what's happening, right? It's like you talk to like an expert on something, right? And you'll go on these all these long tangents and I'll hang up the phone and be like, I wish everyone could have heard all of that, right? Not just the piece that is going to fit into my article and and make, you know, sense as like a a piece of that. So yeah, that was s sort of the genesis of it. And I also like I think it's really important to um to just be like describing like we're all swimming in all this technology, right? Like I think of it as like it's the water in our aquarium tank that we're all swimming in and it's like we don't necessarily know, you know, the temperature. We don't know we don't know a lot about it. Um and I think it's good to to interrogate that. Like I I think we need to be paying a lot of attention to where we pay attention. That's sort of the the catchphrase and tagline of the show. And so I just want to have smart smart people on. What do you mean? I am a real believer that the most valuable resource that we have now is is attention, right? Like it is I mean if you look at you and me are we're in competition with Netflix and you know the phone that's ringing all your text messages, Instagram reels like every single thing every politician like everyone because of the internet is on this flat sort of playing field of we only have so many minutes in the day. We need to get people to to care. We need to get people animated. We need to get people, you know, activated to do whatever it is, right? And I think that because of that, our attention is being manipulated all the time. Someone said pornography. Yeah, we're we're competing with pornhub like 100%. Right. Uh all the time. And so it I'm just competing with Only Fans, but that's good. Hey, I mean, who isn't? Um, and but so as a result of that, we're being manipulated in all these different ways. And I think it's really important to be assessing that, interrogating that all the time. talking to people who are really good at it and talking to people who reject it and talking to you know I mean I think it's like the fact that you know you can have this show and operate exactly the way that you want to do it and you know it you're running your own business in this way that you know wouldn't have been capable 10 years ago probably right that has altered the state of media that state how people consume this where they're consuming it I want to unpack all of those different things and talk about it and talk about what that's doing to us. What like what opportunities is it giving us? What is it, you know, leaving behind? Are there negative things? Are manipulators doing it better than the good faith actors? You know, so we just want to get like the smartest people in the room all the time and just talk about it and and and you know, pay attention to where we pay attention. Finally, a podcast that I can listen to other than the Don Lemon Show. But let me like and subscribe, please. Yes. Like and subscribe to Galaxy Brain. Yes. Right. Please. Yeah. We're on we're on YouTube. Uh and then all the other, you know, podcast places. But do you believe the internet is a misery machine? I think it's become one. Um unfortunately, I think it's partly because of these these these types of algorithms. I mean, if you if you think about the way I I have I have an interview coming up with with this guy Elliot Higgins from um from this he's an investigative journalist and he has this whole theory of how our discourse got so like broken, right? And there's this notion that, you know, in order to have like a functioning democracy, we need to understand and agree on what's true. We need to be able to debate freely those things in order to prove what is true. And then we need to use what is true to hold people to account. And without anything that makes any of those things harder starts to degrade our discourse a little bit to the point where this Elliot Higgins argues we are living in a simulated democracy right now. And this gets back just a title and a bow to this like Epstein thing, right? which is this notion of can people be held to account, right? Or are are we all sort of pretending like we are participating, right? We're all screaming about this thing, but the democratic process is so broken, the discourse around it so broken that, you know, we're going to see all these links, all these things that should, you know, with Donald Trump and his, you know, connections to Epstein that should be investigated in this way that should, you know, cause him to have to scramble and and maybe that doesn't happen, right? maybe there is no accountability. When you lose that accountability or when people feel like they're just simulating, right? I think they start to believe that they are powerless and they check out and that's the absolute worst thing. So that these are like the the types of topics we're going to start to get into and talk to. And I just want to empower people to like see where they exist in all of this, be able to make the decisions like when they're on, you know, their phones or whatever and they're like, why I am getting like mad like I am getting really mad. Like is is that a natural thing or is somebody manipulating me into getting mad and becoming the worst version of myself? Manipulating it's manipulation, I believe. And you said a simulated democracy or is it an AI democracy? I'm just saying. You never know. Um But you know what? You're right. I look the here's the interesting thing to me when I work with the young folks who do social and do digital like the things that I do now because I've been in legacy media for a long time like you know since the 90s the things that I can do now live and go and do go live and present a show whatever would not have been possible. And it used to take you know 50 60 70 people to put on a show and I have a staff of four or five people. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of It's crazy. It is crazy. And I I mean, when are the networks going to get that? Like, you don't need I'm not I'm not suggesting anybody lose their jobs, but you just don't need that many people. I'm just, you know, it's it's it's wild. I mean, it's it's allowed for a lot of really good things to happen, a lot of, you know, ex extreme like it's empowered a lot of people in this great way. It's also added a ton of chaos to the system, right? And we are like dealing with all of that right now, right? The the the shock jocks versus the uh uh the people who are actually trying to do some good in the world. And you know, we're going to see where it all shakes out. But I just want to give people the tools with this podcast to um and with all my work to just sort of feel like they are oriented in all this, right? Like they're just able to it's the it's the compass, right? What direction am I pointing in? We're not telling you where to go. We're just telling you this is maybe where you are in relation to some of these things. Check out Charlie Warzel uh on the Galaxy Brain podcast, right? And where else can we get you? Uh you can find me. I'm on I'm on Blue Sky Seaw Warzel. Uh you know, Instagram Warzel, but really go to your podcast app, Galaxy Brain. Go on YouTube, type in Galaxy Brain. The first episodes up. I'm really proud of it. And the other ones we got coming, I think, are going to be really fantastic. So, thank you. You need to become a you need to become a special correspondent, tech correspondent for the Don Lemon Show. We like that. Okay. All right, man. Thank you, Charlie. Be well. Have a great weekend. Best of luck with the podcast. Adios. Thank you, man. Appreciate you. Thank you. Okay. Speaking of liking and following and all of that, go to donlemon.com. If you want to know anything about the show, that's where we are. Go check out Charlie Warzel's show as well. It's important that you support independent journalists, independent media, or people who are in this digital space. Um, but we're on the Donlemon uh donlemon.com. You can, you see that's where our main pages, which is, uh, that little arrow. That's YouTube. You can become a member or you can subscribe. Subscriptions are free. Also, also, also, uh, we're on Twitch. That's our newest platform that we're on. So, go check out the Twitch and you'll see. See, we're just delayed on Twitch. Hi, Twitch. Hello, Lemon Headle Lemon Nation on Twitch. Good to see you guys. Happy Friday. Um, and you can check out our merch store too at donlemon.com and get all the fancy things. I do not have the glass today. I don't know why. My husband made me a cocktail and he did not bring the Don Lemon Show glass. Instead, he brought our fancy glasses that we use for cocktails. See how that different colors. And this is, you can see the salt on the rim. So, take a good long guess as to what this is. I love the sound of ice cubes. I don't know if you can hear them. Anyways, so go check that out. We When When's the Christmas stuff going to go up? I don't know. Yeah, we need to get the Christmas stuff. We have bulbs and what else? Um, a what do you call it? Not a yeti. Pants, thermoses. Pajama pants, thermos, a Stanley or whatever those things are. We got some Christmas stuff for you. Okay, guys. Thank you so much. We have no merch photos, right? We do. We have a uh three. Well, we do. We have three merch photos. Okay. What do we have? Oh, people be knowing. Yes. Yes. Yes. Dr. Dr. Rakine. Dr. Raken is beautiful, gorgeous lady. And old people be knowing. She's not old though. She'll be known soon, but she's not old. Thank you, doctor, for supporting the Diamond Show. Oh, look at that hat. Renee from DC. Hi Renee from DC. Renee from DC. Beautiful. Great smile. And yes, love the hat. Thank you for your support, Renee. I hope it warmed up there. It was freezing when we were there. Oh my gosh. Who's this little Oh my Lemon Shauna, baby. Shauna in front of the fireplace. And wait a minute with me drinking. That was just yesterday or the day before. Amazing. Look at that cutie patootie right there. We need to get like some some uh pajamas for him. Oh, I've been told this is a video. Ready? It Oh, let's see. It's okay, baby. That's the lemon, baby. The D limon show is on. This is a very serious story and could remember. That's amazing. A thank you guys. Thank you. What's her name again? Shauna. Shauna. I don't know if that's the baby or the the person who sent the video. Well, they're all amazing and gorgeous. Thank you for your support. Okay. Appreciate it, man. That warms my heart. If you um have any of the merch or a photo or video like that, send it to the Donlemon Showgmail.com. Should we play the song for people today? It's Friday. I think we should play the song. I think we want to hear it. Do we want the edited version or the extended version? I mean, the original or the extended? I think we play extended. Yeah, extended. Yeah, extended. Let's go. It's the Don Lemon Show. It's the Don Lemon Show. He's unmasking the truth. He don't take no It's the Don Lemon Show. file. You better release those files. You better release those Epstein files. If you don't release them, you're a Better release the Epstein files today. Donald Trump is a ass I hope Shauna's baby or the baby Shauna wasn't there listening to that. Thank you guys. I'll see you back here sometime soon. Um I may pop in this weekend. And uh otherwise, I'll see you back here at 10:00 a.m. Eastern time on Monday morning. Have a fantastic weekend. Be safe. Have a good time. Hug your loved ones. Remember, nothing is worth losing your cool over. You just some things you just have to do. Like our forever President Barack Obama said, you just have to be informed without being inundated. Turn the TV off. Thanks so much for watching everybody. Your support means the world to us. Don't forget to hit that like button and subscribe so you never miss a show. We're live every weekday at 10:00 a.m. and 5:00 p. p.m. Eastern time with new clips dropping at 2 p and 8 p. And if you want even more Don Lemon Show content, join the Lemon community. Members get exclusive posts, behindthe-scenes videos, and live chats just for you. So, hit the join button or visit our channel page to sign up. Thanks again for all your love and your support, and I'll see you next time.