and Vento, the team behind this fantastic event. Congrats to the Vento team who did not tell me that I'd have to be riffing for a couple of minutes, but security is tight and and rightly so, of course. Okay, it's going to be about an hourong conversation, we hope, between John and Jeff talking no doubt about leadership, about businesses into the future, about innovation and maybe collaboration between Europe and the US on some of these key technologies. >> Please welcome to the stage John Elen and Jeff Bezos. Heat. Heat. This one. >> Thank you. >> We have arrived. Thank you, Jeff, for being here in Torino. Last time was 2017. >> Yeah. >> And a lot has happened since. >> Yeah, for sure. So what you're seeing today, we really started in 2016 and it was very much driven by trying to see how we could in Italy and in Chin be more entrepreneurial and be more attuned with technologies of today and and of tomorrow. And since then, if you look over the last decade in Europe, you've had investments going from 45 billion into the tech ecosystem to 425. If you look at the programs which we've been involved uh like Vento who came out from that 2016 period we've now invested in many companies with Italian founders in Italy and outside of which one B has just been acquired by Amazon. So thank you. >> Thank you. And the event that was started in 2018 100 people now we have 15,000 and we could have had more but we're constrained by capacity and this is very much been driven by Dial and all the team that have made it possible to be here today. >> Amazing. Amazing. Very cool. All of this to say that there's a huge amount of optimism. The president of the European Commission would sort of underline was very strong about why it's important to be optimistic. What do you think? >> Uh well, first of all, I get all weak need around entrepreneurs. I just love entrepreneurs and I always have like missionary entrepreneurs. uh people who are you know they're doing it because there's something about the mission that they just can't not do it. They're so passionate about it and uh I'm guessing that this room is full of such people and I think you should be very optimistic. In fact, entrepreneurs need to be optimistic almost to the point of delusion. You need to be uh right there. There's this uh uh you may remember the great um John F. Kennedy speech about going to the moon and other things. He says we do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard. But I've always thought that for entrepreneurs it should be a little different. We do these things not because they are easy but because we thought they were going to be easy. Uh so that's a useful attitude for entrepreneurs and uh you know Europe you hear these things about Europe that uh it's you know it's not enough uh dynamism in Europe there's too many regulations in Europe let me assure you there are plenty of regulations everywhere and what you need is that can do attitude that entrepreneurial attitude that's what drives people to success and Europe has all of the ingredients they need uh to be a dynamic IC entrepreneurial uh you know just a huge success and I you can tell it just from the people in this room. >> Do you agree? >> And of course uh startup companies small companies thrive in moments of great and rapid change. Stability favors incumbents and rapid change favors small, dynamic, nimble startup companies. And so the world is so rapidly changing right now. There's never been a better moment to be an entrepreneur. There has never been a better moment to be a startup company. >> And if you think about entrepreneurs and startup companies, um, Amazon now is a very large company. We we are involved with ve very large companies and there's this idea that if you want to be an entrepreneur you should drop out from college start your own company whilst if I look at my own experience uh luckily I did not drop out from college and start my own company when I was studying engineering here and I ended up working for a very large company back then which was General Electric where I did learn how to work where I had colleagues from many different places who had a lot to teach me and I was wondering if if you had the different path than dropping out from college and starting your own company. If if there are multiple paths and if working for big companies is also not exciting and within a large company you could still be entrepreneurial. So there's a lot packed in there and I'll tell you my view on this is that it is possible to you know be 18 19 20 years old drop out of college and be a great entrepreneur and the world is we have famous examples of that working Bill Gates Mark Zuckerberg etc. But these people are the exception. I always advise to young people, you know, go work at a best practices company somewhere where you can learn a lot of basic fundamental things. Uh how to hire really well, how to interview, etc. There's a lot of stuff you would learn in a in a great company that will help you and then you can still there's still lots of time to start a company after you have absorbed it increases your odds in my opinion. I started Amazon when I was 30 uh not when I was 20 and I think that that extra 10 years of experience actually improved the odds that Amazon would succeed. So that would always be my and advice. I finished college and I enjoyed college and I think it's been helpful to me. Uh and then I went on and I worked for I worked for a really great company called De Shanko where I learned a tremendous amount uh tremendous amount there >> and and working >> and by the way as you mentioned when you're inside a big company you can be entrepreneurial. Big companies need mavericks. They need people to lift them up and make them see new things. And it's up to the leadership of big companies, good companies, best practices companies when they get larger, they defend their mavericks. They don't eject them. they figure out how to support them and and keep them, you know, driving change inside the company because really most big companies get comfortable and the mavericks cause discomfort and so it's easy to keep them away and kind of drive them out, but you'll lose so much that way. At Amazon and at Blue Origin, we're very careful to keep our mavericks. And and I think this is really important, Jeff, because what we're trying to do here is show the future both from new companies who start but companies also who transform and evolve. >> Yeah. >> And and being being clear that working for our companies for Amazon, for Stellantis, for Blue Origin, for Ferrari, for CNH is exciting. >> Yeah. and gigantic opportunities inside those companies >> and and you can also on the back of that and on the back of that experience start companies that you would have had more difficulty in imagining if you started from scratch and I think that's important to to share this experience with with all of you and among the experiences that also I I felt was important and being more personal one of One of the um similitudes that Jeff and I have is we have had the fortune of having a very loving family and among a loving family we had very strong relationships with our grandparents and particularly we had grandfathers who had a big influence in in what we we did. So I I had a grandfather very he was very young, 56 years old and he spent a lot of time uh with with us and he he really was able to to do two things which have been very meaningful for me. on one side always try and stimulate curiosity and the way he would do that was always asking questions of what we'd think and it's quite rare that children get asked what they think and in any different situation if we'd go to a museum or if we'd meet someone or if he'd always be interested and and that stimulation of curiosity and the second thing is responsibility since very young he really would want us to make choices. >> Mhm. >> And choices could be like he he he liked to watch movies, had a very very short attention span. So if the movie wasn't good, five minutes was gone. If you like go half the way to the movie, that was success. And so we we always had to choose the movie he would see. And so going from those small responsibilities to bigger responsibilities like taking care of something uh that he felt was important or a guest that he had and and that that trust in in us and that sense of responsibility are things that stayed very much with me. And I know you also had incredible grandparents and incredible grandfather. And what what stays as of today from him, from what he taught you. >> Well, you're right. This is something we have in common. My um my mother had me when she was very young. She was uh she had she was uh she had just turned 17 years old. She was still in high school in Albuquerque, New Mexico. In fact, they tried to kick her out of high school for being pregnant. And my grandfather said, "No, you can't kick her out. It's a public school. She gets to finish high school." So anyways, there she was pregnant with me in high school and finishing in her whole senior year after I was born. And because she was so young, um uh my grandparents took me every summer to so that she could have, you know, some other kind of uh life for a few months. Not only she was, you know, when you are a very very young mother, you grow up very fast. And so every summer from the age of three or four until I was about 16, I went and spent with my grandparents on their ranch in South Texas. And my grandfather uh at that point, so I only knew him as a rancher. He had done a bunch of things in his life, but at that point he was a rancher. And he did, and this is quite common, I think, in rural areas, that people do everything themselves. He did his own veterinary work. He repaired everything. He had this D6 Caterpillar bulldozer that was he bought for like $5,000 because it was completely broken down. And we spent an entire summer fixing it. And to get the transmission out of the thing, we had to build our own crane. And so he had an incredible resourcefulness to him, you know, he had he believed he could solve any problem. And I sort of watched him, you know, his uh veterinary work on the cattle. He would make his own needles. He would get a little piece of wire and heat it up with a blowtorrch and pound it flat and then sharpen it and drill a little hole through it. Some of the cattle even survived. And and I remember a very meaningful lesson that he gave you when you were in in in the car with your grandmother who used to smoke. >> Oh yes. That was a very formative moment for me. And um I thought I was a very smart little kid. I was very confident. And this I'm only at this point maybe 10 years old. And this was, you know, this would have been 1974 and there were a lot of uh radio commercials on the car radio about how smoking cigarettes kills you. This was 10 years after the US surgeon general's warning and it was still like there was big campaigns to get people to stop smoking. And one of these radio commercials said, "Every puff on a cigarette takes two minutes off of your life." And my grandmother was a chain smoker. She smoked all day long. And so always when we were in the car, she would have the window down and she'd be smoking the whole time. And I hated this. I thought it was smelled bad and I didn't like it. And I was listening to these radio commercials. And so I decided I would calculate how many years of her life she had taken off by if every puff is two minutes. And I did some estimating and I stood up in the back of the car and I proudly announced that she had taken I don't remember what the number was, let's say seven years off of her life. And I thought in my 10-year-old brain that they were going to congratulate me for being so clever. And instead, she burst into tears. And um uh I was taken aback. My grandfather pulled the car over on the side of the road and he had never said one harsh word to me, by the way, in our entire relationship. He never did say a harsh word to me, by the way. And so he pulled me around. He took me out of the car and took me out to the backside of the car. She's still in the front seat, tears coming down her cheeks. And he said to me, I had no idea what he was going to say. And he said to me, Jeff, one day you'll understand that it's harder to be kind than it is to be clever. >> And and the reason I I think this is a very meaningful lesson um is because there's this idea that technology is clever but not kind. >> Yeah. And and in some ways there there's there's it's a choice >> and technology is just a tool that one can use. >> That's right. >> And you need to be clever to to make technology but you can be kind and applying it. >> And and I do think that for most of all you you should also feel very at ease not only in being clever but equally being kind in what you do. >> Yeah. and the demonstration of what you've built and what Amazon is doing and in similar ways different conversations over the years we've had uh of this idea that business is a harsh environment there's a very important humane side of it and then what we do >> is really we put technology and cleverness to the service of others >> and you can do that in a way which is kind. >> Yeah. >> And valuable. >> Yes. And I think long-term thinking squares these things. So whenever you're uh whenever you're in a situation where it seems that the short term you're doing a business deal with someone and if you think you're never going to deal with them again, then maybe you would come to a certain answer. But if you realize, I'm probably going to deal with this person for the rest of my life in one way or another, you come to a different answer. And so long-term thinking, whether it's with your customers or your business uh partners or even with, you know, family members and loved ones, thinking about, okay, what do I want this to be like, not just right now, but five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now. So, you know, it in uh in in retail, you would I would always rather lose a sale than lose a customer. And you're thinking long term and shareholders and customers and the business. Everyone is aligned if you think out 10 or 20 years. >> And and that is also important in moments like the ones we're living where there's a lot of uncertainty, a lot of angst. If you just get devoured by now, you'll lose the optimism for tomorrow. And I do feel that if you do look at long term and if you think on decades rather than months, >> yes, what matters today is important for 10 years. Yes. And and if you have that idea that 10 years things will be better and that we will have made progress, it helps today and it does relieve a lot of angst. It also helps you decide what to focus on. So if you know in a world that's rapidly changing and because of AI and all the technologies we have and the dynamism in the world, so many things are changing and they're changing so rapidly. So if you think long term, it forces you to think what are the points of stability? What is not going to change? And one of the things that changes very slowly is customer needs. And so you can build a strategy around customer needs that will have durability. It will be durable in time. So an example uh Amazon is that customers like fast deliveries. And so you could you'd be you would never expect to 10 years from now it would be impossible to imagine a customer saying I love Amazon I just wish you delivered a little more slowly or I love Amazon I just wish your prices were a little higher or and at Blue Origin I love your uh rockets but I just wish they were a little less reliable or and so you can these ideas these big ideas that are customerbased They start with the customer. It's an idea that is in the customer's brain. Those are the ones because c human nature doesn't change rapidly. And so what we what we as customers want tends to change slowly. And if you base your energies and direction and strategies and tactics, everything that makes a company effective around those customer needs. Then you can change the details of how you get there. all the time because the world is changing so rap. The technologies will change, your competitive set will change, everything will change except those needs. And so that's another way that long-term thinking is protective because it forces you to think about the real customer needs to center those as your big ideas and then put energy into them in a hundred ways and to be very dynamic. I always say be stubborn on the vision and flexible on the details and you have to be because the world is changing and you change your mind. I've noticed that people who are right a lot change their mind a lot. People who are wrong a lot are very stubborn on the details. >> And and that is also self-awareness of how reality is rather than how one would want it to be. >> This is so true. You know who's undefeated? Reality. Reality wins every time. It's completely undefeated. And I I think this is really important particularly to who is starting their careers to to make sure that that reality is is really key in in in what you do. And the the other part that I think is really valuable, Jeff, and today we wanted to speak about dreams and to be able to dream, be dreaming and be building. And sometimes you just dream, but you're not able to build. Other times you just build but can dream. And a lot of people know you as as a founder, as a builder. But the reality uh and I've been fortunate to know part of that reality well is is the inventor and Amazon was an invention. >> Blue Origin is an invention and there are many inventions that you've been making and that's what really is interesting for you. How how can you make sure that as you invent and one of one of the the main topics that we've discussed is how it's important to wonder how it's important to explore. >> But as you invent and you wonder how how were you able not to get lost? Well, that is such a good question and uh you know my so my uh really my best thing my favorite thing is to be with a small group of uh of people with with a big whiteboard in front of me and inventing I'm I am an inventor. This is my fundamental nature. And uh I remember one time we had a an executive at Amazon for many many years, a guy named Jeff Wilkkey who was instrumental in the success of the company. We've we've been gifted with a a large number of fantastic executives including Diego Piachantini who I think might be in the audience somewhere. Um and thank you Diego. Diego's Diego's contributions to uh Amazon are legendary >> and to Vento too. So thank you Diego. >> And so one day in the early days cuz I literally put me in front of a whiteboard and I can come up with a hundred ideas in half an hour. And early in Amazon's history, Jeff Wilkkey came to me one day. He worked for Amazon for a quarter of a century. But this is when he probably knew me only for a year and he said, "Jeff, you have enough ideas to destroy Amazon." And this was such a shocking idea for me. and but and and uh uh you know I as a founder I had the great luxury of always being able to hire my tutors my they would hire these experienced senior executives brilliant people like Diego and Jeff Wilkkey and there there were several others too and and I would listen to them and they would teach me and Jeff said you have enough ideas per minute per day per week to destroy Amazon. I was like what do you what do you mean? He's like you have to release the work at the right rate that the organization can accept it. And he was a manufacturing uh expert and so you know his view of the world was every time I released an idea I was creating a backlog a queue work in process and because it was just stacking up it was adding no value and in fact it was creating distraction. And so he said, 'Look, you have to figure out when to release these new ideas at a rate that the organization can accept them. And this was I mean this sounds so obvious, but it was not obvious at the time to me. And this was a profound insight for me. And so I started prioritizing the ideas better, keeping lists of them, keeping them to myself until the organization was ready for the ideas. And then I also started figuring out how can I build an organization that can be ready for more ideas. That's about having the right senior team and the right leadership and getting those people the executive bandwidth so they could do more ideas per unit time. And so and and that is what we built. We built a company that's very good at inventing and doing more than one thing at a time. And you do want to build as the company gets bigger, you do want to be able to do more than one thing at a time. But that idea of releasing the work was very profound for me. And it made it made us operationally more effective while still being inventive. >> And do you think you're a better inventor on the back of that? So the the actual inventions that >> probably because it also forces you if you are releasing the ideas through time it forces you to prioritize them better. You end up sharpening the ideas better. Um and so yeah probably does >> but you have to wander. Thank you. Wandering. Just one more thing on wandering. Wandering is so important because wandering is a kind of humility. So sometimes when people think about oh should how much should I wander? Wandering sounds so inefficient but you can o the only way to go straight to your destination is if you know where you're going. And sometimes you know where you're going but sometimes you don't. And so wandering is that acknowledgment that in life and in business and in exploration and in invention, in building a company, a lot of the time you can see the mountaintop, but you can't see the trail and you have to explore and you have to wander. It may feel very inefficient, but it's actually very valuable. And it's really a recognition. It's a humility that you don't know where you're going. But inventing but in inventing has a dose that is not efficient >> and it it it does require time to get ideas to learn. >> Yes. >> To dream. >> Yes. On the other hand, you need to be efficient once you start building that. >> That's right. >> And and iterate. >> These are different different things for different times. So oper sometimes when you know where you're going. Yes. You should be very efficient. >> So how how to how to put it in harmony and not balancing. And I know you don't like to balance, >> right? And so how can you put in harmony the dream side and the build side? >> And by the way, just to fill that out a little, I don't like I don't love the word balance because it implies a tradeoff. Like I've often had people ask me, how do you deal with work life balance? And I'll say I like work life harmony because if you're happy at home, you'll be better at work. If you're better at work, you'll be better at home. These things go together. They're not they're not not a strict tradeoff. And the um and it's true I think for exploration but also determined execution. You just need to do both and they actually do feed each other. It's the things that come out of the ex execution give you new data and new ideas about what the next step should be in your exploration. So the two things don't work against each other. They work together. And how so how how would you advise young founders in in practical terms to be able to be in harmony with both >> the touchstone the thing you always go back to is those customer needs. So that's the only way that I could advise any founder or entrepreneur is to deeply understand what are the big ideas that their customers want and you can't you can you should ask them ask your customers but it's not sufficient you also have to invent on their behalf because the biggest breakthroughs the most important ideas. Customers don't know to ask. They don't know to ask for those things. That's why dream that. You have to dream and you have to use your intuition and your gut and your heart. All of the data that gets used in business is essential. If you're in business and you're not looking at your data, trust me, your competitors are going to beat you. But if you're only looking at your data, you also will not win or at least not win big. Because the most important decisions that every person makes when they're building something new is made with intuition. You cannot prove it, but you have an instinct and a hunch. And then you'll pay attention. If that turns out to be wrong, it won't be a big deal. You'll correct. I'd like to go back in the future. 25 years ago, I was studying here in Chin, not very far away in the engineering school. Um, it was the miracle of internet and mobile phones together. I was actually doing a startup called Chia Web, which was a portal. There were many portals. Portals were also being financed by vendors who were selling you technologies and financing that technology and e-commerce was going to be everywhere. Penetration rates seemed incredible. The speed at which that was going to happen was imminent and it was exciting and incredible and Amazon existed and it was already a public company then. And then it just blew up. Everything blew and you had the internet bubble. Today we have similar similarities with AI and we have this incredible sense of optimism and excitement and everything is going to be there now. How how do you feel about this moment and and what what do your instinct taking us back 25 years ago can can help us detect because my instinct are of caution. >> Well, okay. So to take you back in time in the year 2000 when the internet bubble burst, Amazon's stock in a very short period of time went from $113 a share to $6 a share. And by the way, it's split many times since then. I don't know, 20 for one or maybe even more. I don't I don't have the number. But so these prices have nothing to do with today's stock prices. But to go from 113 to six in a short period of time was very concerning and shareholders were upset, employees were nervous. Uh we had all of our employee base, their parents were all calling our employees and saying are you okay? You know this was the environment of great nervousness. But I looked at the numbers in the business and every month as the stock price went from 113 to six, the number of customers went up every month. Our uh gross profits went up every month. Our operating expense, we were still in a loss position, but our our losses as a percentage of sales went down every month. every single business metric, new customers, customer repeat purchases, everything that we were monitoring through that entire period kept getting better. And so this that's one observation about bubbles in general. The fundamentals can be disconnected. The fundamentals of the business. And of course, as entrepreneurs, you're focused on the fundamentals of the business. The stock price is an output, an ultimate output that you actually have very little control over. uh Benjamin Graham the great investor is famous for saying in the short term the stock market is a voting machine in the long term it's a weighing machine and so as founders and entrepreneurs and business people our job is to build a heavy company we want to build a company that when it is weighed it is a very heavy company we do not want to focus on the stock price and so that is you know that will be misleading ing because it can be disconnected from the fundamentals and when bubbles happen. So that's one thing that happens. The second thing that happens when people get very excited as they are today about artificial intelligence for example is every experiment gets funded. Every company gets funded. The good ideas and the bad ideas. And investors have a hard time in the middle of this excitement distinguishing between the good ideas and the bad ideas. And so that's also probably happening today. Um, but it doesn't mean that anything that's happening isn't real. Like AI is real and it is going to change every industry. In fact, it's a very unusual technology in that regard in that it's a horizontal enabling layer. Today we talk about AI first companies like OpenAI and Anthropic and Mestral and so on and so on and so on. There are so many startup companies that are kind of AI companies of various kinds and that's normal for this phase. But that is not the biggest impact that AI is going to have. The biggest impact that AI is going to have is it is going to affect every company in the world. It is going to make their quality go up and their productivity go up. Uh it's I mean by every company I literally mean every company, every manufacturing company, every hotel, every you know consumer products company etc etc etc. And so that is hard to fathom but it's real. There is no doubt. We don't know how long it will take exactly. We don't know how quickly that transition will occur and it'll probably occur at different rates in different industries. But that is very real. Now what the stock market does which is when we think of bubbles we think of valuations and market caps and things like this and how many billions of dollars are being invested in these six people at a $20 billion valuation even though they just started yesterday. Right? That's very unusual behavior. This investors don't usually give a team of six people a couple of billion dollars with no product. It's rare and that's happening today. But the great thing about industrial bubbles, this is a kind of industrial bubble as opposed to financial bubbles. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. If you go back like the the '9s had a biotech bubble and there were a bunch of uh pharma startup companies that were designing drugs and using new techniques and the world got very excited. The investment world got very excited. as a group. They all lost money. But we did get a couple of life-saving drugs. A bubble like a a a banking bubble, a crisis in the banking system, that's just bad. That's like 2008. And so that's you. Those bubbles society wants to avoid. The ones that are industrial are not nearly as bad. It could even be good because when the dust settles and you see who are the winners, society benefits from those inventions. They still get those life-saving drugs. And that's what's going to happen here, too. This is real. The benefits to society from AI are going to be gigantic. And if we go back 25 years ago when when the internet was in that bubish moment, no one would have predicted a lot of the industrial benefits exactly at that industrial bevel and the fiber huge investment that were put in infrastructure. >> It's a perfect example that all of that fiber optic cable that got laid and by the way the companies who laid all that cable went out of business. >> Literally went bankrupt. But the fiber optic cable was still there and we got to use it. >> And the telco companies who own the customers and who had a very strong moat >> Yes. >> ended up not being the companies that emerged. >> That's right. >> And a lot of the infrastructure that was laid for e-commerce ended up actually working. >> Yes. And and in in some ways what what is really important in the m in the moment we're living now is on one side to be extremely optimistic that the societal and beneficial consequences of AI like we had with internet 25 years ago are real and there to stay >> 100%. And by the way it's not even just AI. We're we are all gifted everybody in this room. We're gifted to live in a moment of time when there are multiple golden ages going on. So you have I space travel is in the middle of a golden age. AI and AI is several different things by the way. Middle of a golden age. Robotics middle of a golden age. It it's extraordinary there. There's never been a better time to be excited about the future. And as I said earlier to thank you it's this rapid rate of change is fantastic for entrepreneurs >> and I think and I think what's really important of what we just discussed is on one side to decorrelate the bubbles and their bursting consequences that might or might not happen from the actual reality. Exactly. >> And that if you look at AI similarly to the internet or similarly to electricity, it's going to be broadly diffused. >> Correct. >> And it will go everywhere and everyone from us as people to companies will be using it and benefiting from it. >> That's right. And so we need to just be extremely open in in being able to adopt it and not necessarily think like back in the days that electricity was only going to be applied for light bulbs or electricity was only going to be applied for a fridge. >> Civilizational abundance comes from our inventions. So 10,000 years ago or whenever it was, somebody invented the plow and we all got richer. And that's what happens. One step at a time, we build tools and the tools increase. I'm talking about all of civilization. These tools increase our abundance. And that pattern will continue. And AI is a gigantic part of that. Space travel is going to be a big part of that. there are we it's I don't see how anybody can be discouraged who is alive right now >> and and and as we come to um to a conclusion of this talk though I would have enjoyed to continue it for much longer Jeff the the future we have ahead and as you you you said we should be very encouraged by its future and we had during these days a lot of what's happening which is at the intersection of software and hardware or at the intersections of the of bits and athems and we had here one of our companies CH the CEO Garrett spoke about tech and iron agriculture equipment and how that's becoming very different and somehow these are becoming robots >> cars we had Archer company were associated >> and how cars are becoming >> fine cars the reality is my daughter Vita who's here was very disappointed when I showed her a flying car which is a child of a helicopter and a drone and it's not actually a car that then flies but it will happen and healthcare which is a sector where we've been spending a lot of time and looking at machines that Philips do where surgery is going to become more and more precise and and more and more clever thanks to this combination We are in Shireen which not only has its roots in in cars and automotive but also in aviation and space because from the engines that were applied to cars and multiple machines, trucks, agriculture equipment, they also went in planes and ultimately on rockets and combustion will stay on rockets. >> Yeah. >> And we have a very strong base here in Chin. a lot of companies, a lot of excitement. You're spending a huge amount of time in Blue Origin. Very few people know how hard you're working on it. And the truth is, you haven't really stepped down. On the contrary, you just went much faster forward. Can you tell us a little bit about how the world looks like 10, 50 years from now? Well, uh, so I am working very hard on Blue Origin. I'm working very hard on AI. Um, I'm the least retired person in the world and I will never retire because work is too much fun. It will never happen. >> And Lauren is you're you're for it. >> She knows it makes me happy. And so, look, um, Blue Origin, we're, uh, at the end of this month or maybe the first week of November, uh, we're going to launch our new Glenn vehicle and we're sending NASA's Escapade, uh, satellite into orbit around Mars. So, that's about to happen. Uh, we are building a lunar lander that is going to land on the moon uh, here in just a few years. And also very exciting, it's hydrogen-powered. It we developed being 20 degree Kelvin very very cold 20 degrees above absolute zero 20 Kelvin electric powered solar powered cryocoolers so that we can keep liquid hydrogen liquid and have it be a storeable propellant in space. This is very hard to do. We already have made amazing progress on it because hydrogen is the highest performing fuel for rocketry for space travel. But it has this problem that it has to be kept so cold that historically it hasn't been able to been used on deep space missions because it just boils away. So we're solving that problem making hydrogen a uh storeable fuel. We're we are doing R&D into how to build solar cells solar cells from lunar regalith on the surface of the moon. Uh because if you're going to go to the moon and stay on the moon, you need to be using the resources of the moon. You need to be harvesting the moon to make that cost effective. >> So the moon will be a launch pad. >> The moon is a gift from the universe. It's so close to Earth. It's only three and a half days away. We have we can launch and get to the moon anytime. Uh unfortunately to get to other planetary bodies, they have very rare launch windows. Mars. You can go to Mars once every 26 months or so. And so the moon is really a gift. And it has a very low gravitational field, only a sixth of Earth's, which means it takes about 30 times less energy to lift a kilogram of mass off the moon than it does to lift it off the Earth. So we can use the moon as a rocket fuel depot to go to the rest of the solar system. One of the things that's going to happen in the ne, it's hard to know exactly when, it's 10 plus years, but I bet it's not more than 20 years. We're going to start building these giant gigawatt data centers in space. So, these giant training clusters, those will be better built in space because we have solar power there 247. Uh, and it's and the solar power there is there no clouds and no rain, no weather. So you can build we will be it will we will be able to beat the cost of terrestrial data centers in space in the next couple of decades. And so space will end up being one of the places that keeps making earth better. It already has happened with weather satellites. It's already happened with communication satellites. The next step is going to be data centers and then other kinds of manufacturing. >> And will we be able to travel on Earth faster? Um, yeah, I think so. Eventually, this is very challenging. This kind of hypersonic travel on Earth, the pointto-point ballistic travel, it it doesn't break any laws of physics. It's got some It's got some It's difficult in some ways. It's rockets tend to be very noisy, so people probably don't want them like in their downtown areas. Uh, so we we'll have to figure out exactly how that works, but there may be hyper other ways of doing hypersonic travel, too. Uh so I do think that will that will happen. >> And living in space when will be when do you think we'll be living in space? >> Well I think I believe we'll have uh in you know in the next kind of couple of decades I believe there will be millions of people living in space. That's how fast this is going to accelerate. Um it's interesting too because they'll mostly be living there because they want to. Our robotic technology is getting so good. We don't need people to live in space. Anything that could that we need done. If you need to do some work on the surface of the moon or anywhere else, we can we will be able to send robots to do that work and that will be much more cost effective than sending humans. And if you were to advise a movie or a book of sci-fi that's in your view more truth to what we expect, what what would that be? And I'm asking because I know you love sci-fi and I love disappointed myself of seeing how >> how you always read and see these movies and it never happens. I've uh I've read so much science fiction just starting my in that little town in South Texas where I spent my summers with my grandfather. Someone someone had donated his science fiction collection to the local library which is this town of only 3,000 people and over the course of a few summers I read my way through that all the classics is and heinland and so on. the one of the I one of the uh something that I would recommend is the culture series only because it has such an interesting utopian take on the intersection of humanity and artificial intelligence and I think there's so much talk about that right now. Not that this is the way it's going to be or anything but it's just a very interesting uh way to think about these super intelligences. We didn't have time to talk about that. But I find so many people nervous or anxious or even a little discouraged or depressed by thinking about these coming. You know, right now computers can easily beat us at chess. Once they can compete us at anything, do we have meaning in our lives? I think the answer to that is 100% yes. We will still have meaning in our lives. Gracia. Thank you. Thank you.