made now Journey it's it's weird because I obviously for a living interview people into doing interviews I've got social I don't like it's the also viral I don't know go Tik Tok and viral asken they lab EXP good afternoon thanks everybody for staying we've got another fantastic session you've nearly made it to the end of the day just a couple more to go um and that's both sets be brilliant so for now if you can just welcome we've got Monica PLA and raahil Shake and they are um BBC news/ Panorama inves of journalists and um I feel like we've already covered quite a lot between us now but I the first thing I want you to do is just kind of take yourselves back to where these faces are when you at this point sort of in your career or in your studies and sort of just tell us how you've got from there to where you are now do you wanna do you want to go first should I talk do I talk into this hello hello um yeah well first thing I want to say so it feels like it's underwhelming for you guys like you had Pi Morgan and then you look at me like who's who's this guy right um but uh so no like I I I work for Panorama now as an investigative journalist and filmmaker um but 10 years ago I was uh sitting where you guys are sitting not here but somewhere else um and doing an MA in journalism so I know what you guys are thinking and feeling and going through and I know what you're looking at me for right you're just probably thinking is it going to give me a job will you help with that no like just you kind of want to see can you go from doing the course and actually get into the industry um and the short answer to that is absolutely and I think for me when I did the ma in journalism um if I didn't do it I don't think I'd be where I am now so you guys are in the right position so hopefully you know you feel confident in that and you make the most of the opportunity to do the best you can with it um and I think for me um so I graduated I think back in in 2014 now and I got so many rejections because I knew I wanted to be a journalist where I applied to so many internships journalism schemes and I think I must have got six rejections from BBC six rejections from ITV and I was just thinking what on Earth do I do but just let the rejections motivate you don't give up um and I entered this competition called ITV breaking into news it's run by media trust so I think always be really proactive and have a look on socials about oh what competitions are going on are there any schemes for me don't just look at the obvious BBC and ITV because there are so many roots in and then I ended up winning this competition that was organized by media trust and ITV young journalist of the year and it's very much on the story idea I did and that was on skin whitening products being sold under the counter um and I used very much my own experiences and the story idea that I did and that's just what made it stand out it's what made made it unique so I think when it comes to ideas as well what will set you apart is how original they are the access and make it unique to you um and essentially yeah that's how I got in and then I did my ma I got a scholarship through the newj to do my ma and to be honest guys it was a lot of work experience it was a lot of networking it was we had Rachel Corp who's the ITN the news editor now who came into a career talk when I was at City University in London and I just kept in touch with her ever since and she gave me my first ever job at ITV News so just keep in touch with who comes on these talks be proactive be on the lookout on social media for what schemes are going on and keep an idea a story idea journal with you 24/7 because you just never know when they're going to come in handy so that's what I would say and how did those um those schemes that you went on and obviously those contacts how did that lead to BBC North and then onto Panorama for you yes so through so it was a lot of networking essentially and then when I did ITV the young journalist of the Year competition a lot of them recommended you need to go and do an MA because that's when you get your work placement you're going to get to know people that come on and do the talks um and then I did my ma that was funded through the newj and then I just managed to get lots of work experience and placements and it was just after that I kind of fell into a brick w thinking what am I going to do next so I hung out at Media city I went to a Jeremy Kyle show because actually through one of my interviews at Uni I ended up interviewing Jeremy Kyle and he was like come to one of my shows as I did so I enjoyed about six hours of Jeremy Kyle and then I saw Naga manchet outside the BBC breakfast Studios and I was like I'm going to shoot my shop I'm going to shoot my shop so I literally ran up to her I was so ruthless and Relentless and really wanted it and I just thought I've got nothing to lose here I went up to her and I said nagger I really want to work for BBC News I think it was about 22 23 at the time and she was like absolutely and she said there was an opening coming up on BBC breakfast TV and this is what they're looking for this is the kind of stories that they're after and I just spoke to her for about half an hour in the pouring rain outside BBC breakfast Studios and then a month later I got the job at BBC breakfast TV um and I actually used that story in the board itself to the editors where they were like cuz they always ask the first question is how did you prepare for this job um and you always have to talk to someone who is at BBC breakfast and I was like why not just bring my nagam ma chatti story into it and they were like you ran up to it and I was like absolutely I've got nothing to lose journalistic Instinct so you have to do that don't you exactly and essentially that's how I got uh at BBC breakfast and then once you're in it's very much then I went to news run to be a reporter and and then I went to BBC look north um where I present and report and then I present on the main Channel now um and then I did a panorama and then I do various documentaries which I present produce and report on so it's very much um who you know giving those ideas the impact of those ideas and just yeah building building the way up and what about you was it sort of similar story did you just go and grab somebody that you kind of really looked up to or was it sort of um work in you are yeah no I'm too socially awkward to do any of what what she did um I did it I did it a different way um and hopefully some of you guys can relate um there's not one way to get into the industry and do what you want to do there's there's different ways and I think find what's comfortable for you and take that route as well um for me it was straight after the ma it was I I just wanted to work in in The Newsroom so I just applied for jobs all over the country and I got rejected like about a million times um and I got one only one job interview for a local radio station a very obscure one in West London somewhere wasn't paying very much um but I thought well okay let me just you know it's it's a foot in the door so I just took that job straight away uh but it was I was just very lucky it just happened to be a news reading job for the radio um and I took it and worked there for a year and it it's 5:00 a.m. starts in the morning um and just worked my way up and so it was I think the key thing is is that and what helps you is if you have good ideas that you can just pitch to anyone who listen to any editor any boss wherever um and just sell those ideas because if they see your passion for it that's what will sort of get you quite far so I started in local radio uh moved into BBC local radio went into BBC National radio and then I made the switch uh from there into uh I went to news night and then Panorama where I'm now and and really I'd say that the way that that transition sort of happened was wherever I went I was just pushing to do original journalism whether it was local level or national level and that just caught the attention of the people at Panorama and where it was actually them reaching out to me oh why don't you come and join us for a bit and work on a film and uh and then it kind of you know led to where I am now and before we sort of touch on Panorama for you both I just want to speak about what you said there about being socially awkward a lot of our students you know suffer with anxiety nerves especially because of because of things like coid because a lot of their education was from home you know there really pivotal pivotal years but how they're probably thinking how do they get to where you are how can they still you know get through those barriers as as you have what would you say is kind of any advice or any reassurance you can give them yeah just just um just be yourself I think uh be authentic to yourself but but also don't be afraid to just step out that comfort zone cuz sometimes that anxiousness um and that fear that you have is actually holding you back from your full potential um and really I think in this industry you have to you really have to love journalism to do it there are not you know it's I'm pretty sure I don't know if they've told you but it's not the highest paid job that you could potentially do so you really have to you have to love it especially in the early stages and that love and passion for whatever motivates you to do it is what's going to drive you so whether you're you know you're a bit quieter or you're a bit shy or you're very confident um that's just your natural personality but as long as you have the passion to deliver journalism and have really good ideas I think that's what we'll see you through and on that I don't know how many of you guys actually want to present but when I was younger I couldn't say V to a goose I was so shy so so nervous I would always tremble um but I just had this passion for broadcast journalism and I remember when I first started presenting at BBC look North I was terrified and I reached out to Louise menchion I was like oh my God how have I got this job like I don't think I'm good enough just always constantly doubting myself but I knew it was something that I need to improve on so I reached out to Louise mention and and she by the way in this industry you can literally email anyone and nine times out of 10 they will be your Mentor so any journalist that you admire just reach out to them and they will help you no doubt and Louise mentioned was like Monica when you present and you're looking in the AQ you're not going to die what's the worst that's going to happen she was like it's almost like it's a sudden Rush of all these fears but in naturual fact you trust yourself you are in control you've got your auto que right in front of you you also have your notes in front of you but don't forget that before you go live you know the story trust yourself trust your gut and I really held on to that advice um and and just I learned to trust myself a lot more and it just really helped me and I think when it even came to then the national news as well and God knows you're presenting in front of millions of people across the world it's things do happen the technology does fail the the gallery goes up in chaos it's a breaking news story but as long as you're in control you know the story and you trust yourself I think that's the key thing in all of this um so yeah uh that's how I kind of overcame my presenter anxieties from the beginning and how does that compare so being live in front of you know tens of thousands or even millions of people com being live compared to um you know pre-recording something like Panorama because the process for both must be completely different it is to be honest when you do 6 hours of live news presenting you just forget that the cameras are there and because it's so dark and know you guys have the studio don't you so you can probably see as well um that you know by an hour in you're just like oh okay it's just like I'm talking to my mate and that's one of the things that is the advice as well that Louise mention gave me it's like just pretend you're talking to your mom pretend you're talking to your matee pretend you're talking at a pub about a story that you find really fascinating um and I think yeah practice makes perfect so the more you do the more natural and the more easier it becomes but I think when it came to pre-recording Panorama um I'm not going to lie it is easier pre-record are a lot easier but I think it's but it's very much journalism focused because you it's you have one interview that you need to nail and you need to make sure that you get everything out of that particular interview I don't know about you because obviously you've done more shoots than me so how would because you did a live as well yeah so I think I mean your question was about the difference between doing lives and and doing a panorama it's completely different there two different formats to two different forms of Journalism um uh when you do a live you have to re react to breaking news or something there and then and it's actually that's very hard it's hard um when you're doing a panorama you can have 3 to six months to make a half an hour program but even that can sometimes feel like not enough time because you're you're trying to investigate one topic very thoroughly um So within that time you're you're researching you're producing you're filming then you're in the edit um and then you have to make sure that everything's accurate and everything's truthful um so we have longer um it's not is different to presenting live on on air but at the same time it has its own challenges as well and I imagine one of those challenges is keeping it fresh because you know some of the audio pieces you've done the 24 hours in Snapchat and the um the heart and soul piece you did um for BBC World Service and I know both of you mentioned case studies and um you know trying to speak to influencers and sometimes it can take months for those people to get back to you is it quite difficult to keep the momentum going throughout that whole process do you think yeah it can be it can be difficult I think I think with investigative journalism one of the one of the things that you have to learn or or understand is is you need to have more patience than for Daily News um because you're going to be asking more of a contributor so you kind of need to form a relationship with them um and that would be sometimes chatting to them multiple times times before you even have the interview you want to make sure they feel comfortable um that you're both comfortable with essentially what you need them for and with keeping it fresh that can be hard because let's say I'm working on a film that's going out in three months time but then Monica's working on a new story on the same topic and then that's going out tomorrow I then have to change what I'm doing because everyone's seen already because Monica's done it um if I just give you a quick example so the last film that I made was two weeks ago and it was it was on what's happening in uh Israel and Gaza at the moment now the news is currently covering that every single day and one of our challenges were well what can we put in half an hour Panorama that will feel fresh for the audience and and be seeing things that they wouldn't have seen before and and one of those things really was getting the trust of people who were both in Gaza and in Israel that hadn't spoken to anyone else and been anywhere else and and get them to agree to to share their story with us and a lot of the stories you know like that is obviously really traumatic and and a lot of the case studies that you'll speak to so the um the panoram piece you did on operos um the the GPS across the UK there's some really upsetting case studies within that and similarly with you and the 24 hours in Snapchat and the um The Secret World of n trading nudes how do you personally and professionally deal with those kind of traumatic and and difficult stories yeah um so when I worked on the Panorama The Secret World of trading nudes I think it was every day we were speaking to multiple women who had their nudes shared online without their consent or knowledge or they they were secretly filmed and it's almost as if we had to tell them this information and it was really difficult to deal with and we were trolling through so much horrific footage and it was literally probably one of the most shocking experiences ever and I think I'm lucky we're lucky that we work in the BBC where it wasn't just a me thing like we have such an amazing team around us and we have the most professional people on board there was counseling Psychological Services that we had access to 24/7 but first and foremost it's that duty of care that we had to our case studies and making sure that they're okay every step of the way and because we were in these circles one of the things that we had to do straight away was to immerse ourselves in Charities like you know so is a revenge porn hel line not your choice because if we're going to be dealing with these victim survivors we need to know how to talk to them how we can gain their trust and we had initial research chats with so many Charities to make sure that we were speaking to them correctly um so they were our focus and then yes I mean it was awful what we had to deal with but we were lucky that we had an amazing team behind us that could help and I think within the dock as well what we did was actually expose a perpetrator who was sharing these nudes of women so essentially that kind of put my safety at risk and I was really terrified thinking oh my God is he going to come for me is my phone going to be at risk what's going to happen but likewise you know the BBC I had every safety protocol ticked off when it comes to physical safety Online safety I had checks um I made sure that my family safety were okay as well and I just think I'm lucky because of the organization that we were in that I was able to get everything ticked off before we were exposing the perpetrator and before this doc went on to air I mean that was actually my next question because obviously you you spoke to um lots of people who'd who'd been privious to this and they weren't even sometimes people who had shared explicit photos there was an influencer who was just doing her job and they'd obviously you know they'd used her and there were questions about well where does she live what are her socials and how do you how do you take yourself out of your own head almost and and you know know that you're going to be putting yourself at risk almost and that people might think well actually you're our next Target It's Tricky I'm not going to lie but for me it was about the Justice it was about getting Justice for these women and I had to to almost take myself out of the equasion and put them at the front because this is not something that I have to deal with on a daily basis it's something that they have to deal with and there was no justice they were stuck in a legal loophole where there was no legal protection that everyone has access to their images and the perpetrator can say sorry and essentially get away with it and for us the the key priority was creating these conversations changing the narrative making sure that women aren't victim blamed and also making sure that these people have a platform where they can change the law and where they can get justice so I almost just had to blur myself out of it and just make sure that we were on the right path in order to create big change and big impact from the program which we did because then we end up changing the law with our Panorama documentary and I'm so proud I'm so proud of the women that spoke to us because I think that's the biggest thing I've achieved in my whole journalism career today make the all the stress you know all the horrific things you had to witness does does that make it worth it the outcome absolutely absolutely because when you know there's wrong doing you just have to make sure that you highlight it and everything else was almost on the back burner because I just wanted to make sure that this is doing what it's meant to do um and I think I'm just lucky because I had the best team to help me and and they didn't they're dealing with it on their own they're suffering by themselves on a daily basis and they don't know who to reach out to so the least we could do was just be there in order to give them that microphone to hear their voices and get them Amplified and you've talked about um obviously having a big team around you but you in in your own worlds you're almost a team within yourself because you you take on so many roles and you wear so many different hats how do you find do you enjoy being the producer the researcher the journalist on a project do you think do you like being able to take kind of more creative control of rather than just being the presenter yeah no it's uh I kind of I've had this sort of Jack of all trades um role at the BBC where I do a mixture of reporting uh and and producing and I I enjoy that because there are sometimes that I just like to get stuck into the journalism I mean in terms of the two I I don't know if it's clear because it wasn't clear to me what the difference between a a producer and And the reporter was so on a on on a panorama film the most important roles are not the person that you see on screen and I think a lot of the times is when we we we like oh there's that there's a journalist on on you know appears Morgan and they they become celebrities uh but really the the the the journalists are the ones that you don't see and those are the producers that are actually making um the Panorama film that that you're watching um so it's good to sometimes be behind the scenes and making the film but I mean at the moment I'm I'm just working on on a panorama that I'll be presenting next year but that I think it's when there's a story that really matters to you personally that you feel like you can deliver better than anyone else then it's good to be able to have a mixture of doing both but it's hard to find a place where you can do both it's kind of either you're going to report or you're going to produce but once you get to a level where you can do both you're you're going to be able to navigate that better and not just within TV but radio I know you've I've listened to radio pieces that you've both worked on as well and I think sometimes there's a misconception that radio is easier and you can just sit behind a mic and record it but I mean with your 24 hours in Snapchat piece that you did there's so many different elements that go into that there's so many pieces and it must take a really long time to put these things together oh my God absolutely so I'm actually trained in TV so I know how to use a camera I can film I can edit we did Tuesday Newsday when we were at University so give me a camera it's fine I'll do a news piece so radio was really different for me actually and it was the first time I did a proper fullon half an hour radio doc was with Radio 4 um and I think it's so important because I think everything now is also multiplatform so you can't just do TV you've always got to think how can I adapt it to audio form how can I adapt it to online and you're always thinking about different treatments but I think for me in terms of radio what I loved is that I could really focus on their voices and the story and the journalism without thinking oh my God like how do I look or what piece to camera should I do or thinking about you know writing to picture when it comes to scripting I found with radio you could really listen to your case studies and your voices and you've been in radio for literally most of your journalism career haven't you yeah so I started in radio and then transitioned over to TV in the last sort of four or five years listen I make I make television but I get a lot of satisfaction from making radio there for me there's always something about if you make a radio doc or radio package and you make it creative and the way that you use sounds it's almost you have to use a lot more creativity because someone's not seeing it so you need to paint a picture in their mind yeah and so when you can create something that does that and somebody can visualize what you've put down in audio I almost think this for me I just almost find it more satisfying that you're describing the scene so I remember when um in my Snapchat documentary um we literally had to recreate Snapchat but in audio form so it was a sounds it's being really creative like what are the notification sounds what can you normally hear when you go through a Snapchat story or when I was going to interview someone it's making sure that the audence are clear on those transitions well you taking them on a journey so you'd be would hear your voice you know through the phone rather than through the microphone and those CH changes it just it really illustrates what's going on in a non visual way absolutely I think that's it and even when I was sat down with a case study it was just you know describing as you said describing the scene what's going on around you what can you smell what can you see my case study just made cookies and I was like like really like over accentuating how yummy these cookies were because that's the thing you need to set the scene and I think you know sounds audio long form podcasts they're so popular these days it's really the future of Journalism I think so yeah what do you prefer or do you like having the variety yeah look I think now you kind of you kind of have to be a multiplatform journalist I think today and I think I'm pretty sure that your courses would be teaching that so it's across online and online can be whether it's writing articles or it's uh digital platforms like using social media which by the way is like the at the heart of everything we do now in journalism um and then it's like how to use a camera and how to use audio audio equipment so really make the most of the training that you get on these equipments here because when you get into a job the the reality is is they're not going to expect to need to train you necessarily they're going to think that you can just do it now so yeah just just pick up all the skills even if you'd like one more than the other yeah of the stories that you've covered and there are many which would you say personally has been the most rewarding and which has been the most difficult and are they the same story oh that's a tough question uh it's a good question um the most difficult just just because it's fresh in my mind um actually I think I think I'll go I'm just going to go back to this Israel Gaza form um that was difficult because I think people when you're a journalist I think there's this perception that we're robots and that there's no human emotion involved at all but we were sitting in an edit for about sort of 72 hours and we are looking through footage that we're trying to decipher whether the audience can watch this or not so we're looking at raw footage coming from Israel and Gaza unblurred and we are looking at it like constantly and constantly and constantly to decide whether whe something can go in the film or not or if we have to blur something or not and that was the first time in my career that that I actually felt like I had to step away from the room for five minutes and just take a take a break and and that was difficult and I just want to pick up on something that Pi Morgan said um about be alert 7 days a week 24/7 yes that's what people are going to say to you when you're they're going to try and motivate you to be that way and actually you should take some time to step away from journalism and step away from uh the work because it's a really demanding job that doesn't have an off button because news just happens all the time so where you can take five minutes step away uh do so and I I didn't do that before and I learned that I needed to do that uh on that film and in terms of the most uh rewarding um I think a year ago we did this film that you mentioned on operos which was an uh uh we for six months produced a film where we sent somebody to work undercover in a GP practice uh where we were uncovering bad practice and uh basically the people who owned the GP practices were running it for profit rather than running it for patient care um that was rewarding because we had we had six months to basically find someone who was actually a uni student um and recruit them uh pretend that they were a receptionist write out a job description CV and then applied to GP practices across London that we thought that this was happening um obviously we don't know that she's going to get the job she actually has to have the interview and then get the job that all happens um and then she's in there for six weeks with a secret camera and um we basically weren't getting anything for about four weeks and in the last two weeks a couple of people probably said something they shouldn't have said and it was caught on camera and then that gave us um our news lines and then the film went on to be brought up in Parliament and then go on to sort of start a campaign for for change in GP practices which was quite rewarding for sure that's really interesting to know how it's put together in terms of of recruiting Because I was I presumed she was a journalist when I watched it and I thought how you managed to create this secret identity to get her in there and actually knowing that for six four of those six weeks people didn't really open up because they did you know you obviously it was made Anonymous but she did get a lot of information from from people working there yeah but that's interesting to know that because it was only half an hour program actually four weeks of that work we didn't even see yeah I know that sounds crazy and and deceitful and it is um but there is a reason for that we we had to spend a few months finding the evidence of this happening in the workplace then we needed to get the Visual Evidence of that and the reason why we couldn't use a journalist is because you can Google a journalist's name and see who they are so we got somebody that was interested in journalism um and trained in journalism University level but didn't have any profile and didn't have any work that anyone could find so that we could use her real name and uh and yeah send her off uh to work as a receptionist for for six weeks for us that's great well it's it's a great documentary so I definitely recommend everyone check it out Monica what about you what's been the most rewarding the most difficult story um I think inevitably it goes without saying it has to be the Panorama The Secret World of trading nudes um it was difficult in the sense that I didn't have a Top Line when I first pitched the story it was literally a message that came through on Instagram by one of my friends that there's this community on Reddit that was sharing nudes of women without their consent or knowledge um and I I just remember I had the idea and I was just thinking what do I do who do I take it to and I think that's why having strong contacts in the industry is really important because you never know when an in Instagram DM will turn into a panorama which ends up changing the law um so I think definitely that was the most difficult but also the most rewarding because I think it was a couple of days ago or last week or something the Online safety Bill the amendments were made and now so many women victim survivors men as well will get the Justice when the explicit images are shared without consent and I will never forget when the law commission rang me and they were like Monica the document helped change the law and I think I cried I actually think I cried like you know at the end of the day we're human and that's just what I wanted to see for everyone involved in the documentary and even when I spoke to some of the case studies they cried too so we were just so overwhelmed with joy so um I think that was definitely the most difficult but also the most rewarding it was crazy to get it off the ground uh probably got rejected 10 times you know my ideas always get rejected if it doesn't happen the first time please do not feel disheartened because you there's always another editor there's always another outlet and there's always another vision for your story so just carry on going um but I just I don't think I've ever had an idea that's always been commissioned straight away um it's always been a bit of a journey but eventually there is someone there is an editor that understands it um oh god I've done so many stories I can't think of any others at the moment but yeah it's been a journey it's all it's all interesting isn't it yeah you've both covered it dealing with projection which we do we do tell students that that will happen and Morgan talks about having a thick skin what other advice would you you know give to yourself 10 years ago yeah I think it's to you know uh we're still dealing with the concept of rejection today I I'll pitch a story I'll pit a story recently that got turned down by about sort of four four editors then it was just it just took one person to to agree and then you know it went out a few months ago so that that important but the other thing that I'd say and and I didn't really understand it when I was uh sitting here 10 years ago that's the importance of um impartiality uh especially if you want to be a journalist um I know that someone asked a question to Pi Morgan about being opinionated uh there is a difference between Piers Morgan and journalists so he's an industry of himself so he's hired to be the person that years and Give opinions um but if you work in the industry as a journalist you're not hired to give an opinion and the way that I would explain it very bluntly is that no one no one cares what your opinion is on a matter and that's not why we become journalists we all have opinions on various things there's something happening right now in the world that is dividing everybody but your job is not to present your opinion to anyone is to give people a platform to say what they want to say and give them the opportunity to to uh to express how they're feeling and also to balance that and reflect how different people across the country feel about something and that's what something I I didn't quite understand when I got into it because I got into journalism thinking oh I want to make change I want to represent these voices and all that stuff and that's great and you should do that but don't lose sight on balance don't lose sight on impartiality and uh and just don't lose sight on how important it is to just serve people truthfully yeah uh and not necessarily just taking a perspective on things and I think be careful because you don't want anything on social media to come back to bite you and it does happen where people will troll through and anything controversial or anything where you are giving your opinion delete those tweets delete it go through it delete it just have that impartiality make sure you don't have that bias I think for me um what I would have done is probably utilize social media a lot more because I had so many ideas back in the day and and I was like oh god I've got no Outlet to actually give them to um and I think because with the rise of Tik Tok especially what I would probably do is work up all my story ideas into like a mini Tik Tok series or episode um or even take it to Instagram reals and I think there's a massive need for that at the moment and you can see how media Outlets they're going to Tik Tok ITV BBC news to share their stories and we are getting so much engagement with the younger generation and it's amazing to see and a lot of us do and news from Instagram and Tik Tok so I think definitely that is what I would be doing um but I also just think you know don't limit yourself and just think cuz I was very much thinking about the obvious oh like BBC TV package or something or another when I had an idea but I just think there are so many different outlets now there are so many different editors it's almost just thinking how your idea can work for say social media or radio or a podcast and not particularly one Niche which is all a TV package on the news so I just think yeah have your story idea book make sure that you know who are the planning editors of different Outlets who you can take your story to don't be afraid to email people meet up for a coffee have a phone chat don't be scared to just email any journalist that you like and ask them to be your Mentor um also be proactive it's not about if you get a rejection that it just think about actually one thing that Louise mention told me is I pitched an idea to BBC 3 it was about colorism it was something that Leanne from Little Mix actually already did um and my idea was so similar to the one that they were filming and then it went out a couple of months after and I was really like oh God they stole my idea they did my idea and I was so angry and annoyed and I was quite bitter but one of the things actually looking back and having that discussion with Louise is I probably should have done actually can I help produce it because their idea and my idea were so similar that I should have had that in anyway because I had the contacts and you know it was very much on the same wavelength and I had access to so it's just thinking instead of being bitter and all a nose a no it's like how can I get an in here and then you never know the next BBC 31 I can work on it I can be more of a reporter role or be a producer Etc and so on but just yeah always think about your in and how you can help in any way when it comes to stories um trying to think of any other advice I mean you can ask uh ask more questions we'll think of we'll think of some more I think I think the yeah no I think I think it's also just to um don't take things personally as well uh it's kind of linked to the rejection thing but uh news rooms are very they're very Cutthroat environments because you have to make decisions quite quickly and so uh you know if if you have an idea or if you pit something and it can kind of just gets kind of rubbished very quickly like don't take it personally it's just the nature of how the the news rooms work and just keep going and keep pitching ideas and one more thing when it comes to presenting a lot of people always say oh I have to change my accent to be on BBC News no never ever change your identity or who you are in order to become a BBC News presenter because I just think you are what makes you unique and we need to see more representation we need to see more diversity if you've got a northern accent I love it I'm here embrace it we want to see that because quite frankly when I watch a northern presenter I'm like so engaged I love it and I'm way more involved in the news than I am that's someone that's oh just sound the same they look the same so I just think Embrace who you are embrace your identity and just Embrace what makes you different as well I think that's so important okay and on that note let's hear from some Northern or not Northern voices we're not going to restrict you and open it up to some questions um you talked a lot about safety especially with investigative journalism how when you're starting to think of ideas and research for your story what preparations do you put in place for your safety okay um I guess that really that really depends on the employeer that you have so um let's just say in the context of the BBC where I work um we have multiple layers of uh senior positions that would be taking our safety uh seriously so um for example let's just talk about the undercover that I mentioned we had to ensure a lot of things to that person was safe even after that production had finished because then people know who she was and she went undercover so those things are taken really seriously and really no decision for any deployment or being deployed anywhere can be made without doing something that we call a risk assessment so uh let's just say there's a breaking news story I don't know in lead C Center and your boss says okay you need to go there and cover it if it's deemed to be dangerous or even if it's not deemed to dangerous your either your production manager or your editor or someone's senior will have to fill out something called a risk assessment that judges what risk would be posed are you the right person to be going there have you had the right training to deal these in these situations as well um and also it's your responsibility as a journalist to raise things because sometimes s you know everyone think that J are Really Brave they just go out to things but you might feel uncomfortable with something and it's up to you to raise that to your to your editor uh and they will take that seriously and uh ultimately you know judge what is the safest way for you to to cover the story I think i' great I think so when it came to the Panorama it was every single location we were filming at there was a risk assessment to make sure it was safe but also when we expose the perpetrator we we were in the blackout van for example we had to pinpoint where you've got the police station you've got Hospital Etc Escape Routes and so on so it's not like you're going into it blind at every single point of filming a panorama there is a risk ass assessment where safety is always assessed and whoever so for me for example I was a reporter I had an online safety team BBC investigations working to make sure that there's nobody you know trolling me online um giving me abusive messages or trying to stalk me online and then there was also a physical team so if I felt ever there was a physical threat that that was monitored as well so it really does depend on who your employer is but with the BBC they are Renown for their risk assessments and their safety and use your own common sense as well like don't don't put yourself at risk uh unnecessarily and always whether it's you're doing a project here at University like check in with someone senior let them know what you're thinking about doing and get their advice before you go ahead and do it yeah because your safety is priority always uh hi um I have a question for both of you am I allowed to ask both yeah so Monica I was really inspired when you brought up that one of your first stories that got this big amount of attention was about skin bleaching because I recently made a documentary about it and I feel like as women of color we have such a of experiences to pull from when it comes to developing stories but I always get caught up in the conflict of wanting to Center my experience but also wanting to make it relatable to a general audience and it's like having to constantly explain myself over and over and over again but I feel like that's kind of our role as journalist so how do you balance wanting it to be as obvious to the general public but also relate to those brown girls who want to see this on screen yeah no I think it's so important because if we don't don't cover these topics who else will and if we don't bring them to the Limelight who else will um and for me I had a personal experience where someone actually said to me Monica I think you need to lighten your skin and I was thinking what on Earth um and I was just on holiday at the time actually and then I was just thinking this is not okay and then when I investigated it further in the UK it's an actual thing here um and I just think it's really important to represent um especially because a lot of people in The Newsroom they don't know your own personal experiences everyone's got their unique identity their own experiences and it's important to educate um and I think I I think as well like if if you bring you into the story I think it's got potential and power to go far because you have that personal connection to the story where you can also be that case study your it's part of your culture it's part of your environment and you can just make it travel far and you've also got that passion as well it's always a tricky one because everyone always says oh you don't want to pigeon hole yourself but then I just think to myself no because if no one else is going to talk about it and if no one else is going to do it I have to because we need to get this story out there we need to create awareness and we need to inform and we need to make a change and I I will do it I will happily do it and that's what I did I think um um yeah does that answer your question does thank you so much um rahil so you mentioned impartiality and platforming Other Stories but what happens like what I shared with Monica when you are the center of the story so I've been following um a Creator and a journalist named beima and her firsthand accounts of what's happening in Palestine how do you think being an outsider kind of like covering that do you think that we should lend those voices to her and let her be the primary firsthand reporter or are we kind of allowed to I feel like I'm messing up the question but like I think I hear what you're saying I think it's whether you feel like you cover the story or you give it to someone who's more best place to do it um look I think I think it depends um I think Israel Israel Gaza is is a unique situation uh where obviously for our film we wanted to make sure that everyone we heard from was from there so either from Israel or from Gaza and give their perspective and then our job is to just present that and then the audience can think whatever they want to think but for example with I think what you're trying to say is that you have a personal connection to a story can you still cover it and of course you can cover it absolutely so there was this documentary that you mentioned that I I made for radio for Well Service it was um have you guys you guys heard Andrew Tate right you guys are all familiar yeah yeah yeah yeah well there you go I think some of the guys might be fans in here maybe I don't maybe no um so so andw T is obviously this consci veral character but I found that he's he was quite popular with these like YouTubers and Tik Tok stars that were like really young Muslim guys that really liked Andrew Tate and I'm Muslim myself and I was like that's really weird like why do you like this guy like why is it that you know you're connecting with this guy so um I did this documentary and it was called the emerging Muslim manosphere so it's about it's basically about this like andw tapate fan club that's growing in the community so what we thought was a good way of going about it was introducing the fact that I myself am a Muslim even though I'm a reporter of the story but I'm going into my community to find out why this very strange guy is really popular amongst like a group of social media influencers and why they like him and why they're sort of mimicking him on social media so you can put yourself in the story absolutely in an appropriate way I think the thing to remember is that when you do that with that with that documentary I had people that liked Andrew T and were telling me why that they promoted his stuff and then I had people that didn't like Andrew tapate and why they were trying to reject that rhetoric so as long as you're you're kind of providing a bit of balance you can put yourself into a story and put your your experiences into it just as long as you're also representing other viewpoints as well on that on that subject matter I think it almost makes you the ex but doesn't it um I remember I did a story on 1947 India's partition and my nan is a partition Survivor and so I put myself in the story with Nani and I took the viewers on a personal Journey my personal Journey my nanny's personal journey and I think it resonated with the audience so much more than if it was a generic news piece because there's not that personal connection I just felt like it was way more engaging and that's a feedback that I got from some of the viewers and the editors so I think yeah don't be scared to put yourself at the front of the story because it creates a powerful that powerful engagement doesn't it it just means more because the audience connects with you because you've got the experience that you're talking about and raill within that um piece that you were talking about the one of the influen you spoke to he actually then turned it around on you and almost almost use you as a case study saying well you're the sort of prime example you're 34 and Mar yeah yeah yeah let me give you I'll give you some context yeah um so I was interviewing this guy his name was Nabil aiz and he like lives in Dubai lives The High Life over there and he is like um I don't know how to explain who he is he basically like is this guy that tells men how they should be but he also tells women how they should be as well so I did this interview with him and um obviously you know I'm questioning him because as an interviewer my job is not to let someone just like just go on a rant my job is to question them to extract why they saying what they're saying and also to provide another opinion as well so I just you know questioned why he he he' written this thing it was like five rules of how a woman should be for a man right and they were the most ridiculous things I've ever heard one of them was like she should have no debt she should she shouldn't she shouldn't go to university social media she shouldn't have any social media she shouldn't have a CO and it was like um yeah it was exactly and but that's the thing so you said you've got all of them but I've got all of them as a guy right so so I was like so I said to him well like this is ridiculous like everyone's got these things I'm I as a man I've got you know I take all these box as well and then he said to me well that's why you are 34 and haven't got a partner because you're because you're you're not an eligible bachelor right he might be true I don't know but um um but but but what I but when he said that I didn't get offended immediately my brain thought oh this is gold for the documentary he then ended it saying like good luck finding a wife yeah and he actually said to me good luck finding a wife and we included that in the documentary yeah um yeah I'm still single but it still still has happened um so but it was great for me what it provided was is that it kind of made him it kind of made me think that he made him look a bit of an idiot to be honest and he did it to himself and we included that in the documentary and he actually made for like quite a funny exchange between me and him there was a lot more that he said that I wish I could put in um so yeah you know sometimes you're going to be challenged by the person interviewing you but it's good to just remain calm and cool and don't don't get offended by it just sort of you know if they're making a fool out of themselves it's you know it's uh sometimes you can work for the documentary yeah doing that doing your job for you we've got time for one more quick question hi um I'm naita sah presenter SL reporter at um braford Community radio station BCB 106.6 FM please listen y when you're in the area do have to give it a plug because we're all volunteers there um I've got a good idea for Panorama oh W um more than that I've put uh a lot of research years into this story found evidence got liability admitted um interested yeah well you can you can tell us like off mic someone might steal it and then I mean they'll do they'll do it thank you well done excellent thank you so much everyone if you could give a massive Round of Applause for Monica and raal uh wonderful thanks very much to Monica and to Ral uh we're going to be