They were the most important relationship, non-family relationship in each other's lives. That's a new fact. What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds of hundreds of hours, specifically relationship? As I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house. So, so far we have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you about? Well, yes. Yeah. Bill Gates. Yes. Epstein related conversations to me about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife. I did not like that he'd had meetings with Jeffrey Epstein. Why would Ehood Barack visit his place 36 times? Ahood is an incredible gas. I you know I think that he will go oh my god. What were the last text exchanges with him and exactly how much longer after his last text to you did he die? It came through his lawyers. So the lawyer told you that could be a cryptic message. I mean it is a cryptic me. Did you ever think you would make it? I feel so I could taste sweet. Adam, what's your point? The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever sign. It's right here. You are one of one. My son's right there. I don't think I said this before. Today we have a special guest with us, Michael Wolf, New York time bestselling author, Fire and Fury. It was one of the most talked about books in the last uh election that we had. Sold millions on top of millions of copies of books, journalist, magazines, paper list. Michael, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Yes. So, Michael, this is this is what I'd like to focus on today's conversation uh to be. It's one obviously Epstein driven because you have the 100 hours with Epstein that we've all read about and heard about two his business model, how he made his money. Epstein, we keep hearing about different types of ways he made money. Is there a blackmail list? And then aside from that, the the the way he passed away. I think he called his German girlfriend before he died, but he also you're the last person he texted before he died. So you've had a lot of time with him. You've spent three hours with Trump. So you've had oneonone with both of them. And there's a lot of conversations about a possible MSAD link. Is there anything there? Is there not anything there? So those are some of the items I'd want to talk about here today. Great. Let's let's do it. So let's get right into it. So, if you don't mind just start off maybe sharing with the audience your relationship over the years and how many hours you've spent with Epstein as well as your relationship with President Trump. Sure. So, in 2014, I had I had known Epstein somewhat before this. He had tried he was a a member of a group of wealthy men who in 2004 2005 tried to buy New York magazine where I worked and was the the lead writer. So I got to know him you know fairly well during during this period. Um he did not his group did not end up buying New York magazine. Um um not long after that his legal problems began um and then he went to jail. So I didn't really have any um um uh much I didn't have any involvement with him until he got out of jail, called me, we got together and in then in 2014 he asked me to write about him a book magazine article. Um you clearly he was interested in being rehabilitated. Um he had gone to jail. you know, he's for two counts of prostitution, one um one of those those um counts being under an underage uh girl um and uh had was a registered sex offender. So, he wanted he wanted to return to his his um his life. And in large measure he had um um you know still lived in his enormous house in in Manhattan. Um many people of influence and note were showing up. Um but he wanted to continue continue this this rehabilitation and he figured if someone wrote about him that would help. And I said, "Well, actually, I'm I'm probably not the person. I'm probably not interested in that." And he said, "Fine, that's fine. You know, I he I certainly didn't have to make a decision." And he said, "Well, why don't if you're interested, why don't you just come whenever you'd like talk to me, see if my story is interesting to you, see if you feel that I'm straightforward. And also, uh, there's many interesting people who come to my house. And if you're interested, I will invite you on occasion. Anyway, nothing nothing to be um not to be not interested in here. And I said, "Sure." You know, yeah, sure. Um no commitments necessary. And we did begin to talk. And he did begin to invite me to some interesting gatherings at his house. And I was um I you know I was I was you know his story was certainly you could not help but be somewhat interested by this this story. But then and this rolls into your next question in in 2015 Donald Trump started to run for president. I started to cover his campaign. Um, and that would ultimately be he would obviously win. And I started to cover his years in the White House. And Epstein at that point and our relationship had been relatively infrequent, but at that point he became a very interesting window for me into who Donald Trump really was because Epstein and Trump had been the best of friends. I mean, I don't mean just casual friends, acquaintances, um, someone he knew. I mean the best of friends. Um, possibly I I think uh they were the most important relationship, non-family relationship in each other's lives. um and um and his insights about Donald Trump, his knowledge about Donald Trump, um his appreciation of of all of the you know both both um both gifts and um and otherwise about Donald Trump was immense. So he became very very helpful to me and um and we continued our relationship right up until until he was arrested and then a month later after his arrest uh he died. And during this long period of time from 14 2014 to 2019, many of our conversations and obviously with his knowledge were um uh were recorded and those are recordings that I now have. Michael, I I appreciate that. Very helpful for uh to know the backstory of it. So roughly, let's just say 100 hours. Of the 100 hours that you have, uh, what were some things that he said? Did he did he sound like he was upset at the president? Did he sound like he was he missed the relationship? Did he sound like he was overexaggerating, underexaggerating? Did you feel hate? Did you feel animosity? Did you feel betrayal? What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds of hundreds of hours specifically? As I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship. Um, he was um I mean obviously Donald Trump had had was about to become or was in the process of becoming the president and then became the president. So this this became became obviously a substantial fact in in uh in Jeffrey Epstein's life. His best friend had become the president. Now, this was a friendship that stopped over a dispute, a real estate dispute in 2004. Um, and they became bitter enemies. um um you know and and and briefly um and I recount this in one of my books um uh Jeffrey Epstein believed himself to be the top bidder for a piece of real estate in Palm Beach in 2004. Um he had buil bid $36 million for this Palm Beach house. He took his friend Donald Trump over to advise him on on the logistics of moving the swimming pool. His friend Trump then immediately went around his back and bid $40 million for the house and got the house. Epstein on his part believed and had Epstein had pretty intimate knowledge of Trump's uh financial basis. I mean they were involved with deals together. Epstein was among Trump's business advisors in essence and Epstein believed that Trump did not have $40 million. Therefore, therefore his king he concluded that that that Trump was fronting for someone um and that this was essentially a money launderering part of a money laundering scheme. And in fact, the house was sold, Trump sold the house within two years for $95 million, which would be a kind of a red flag that um that something was going on here. Um, Trump began to Trump was uh, Epstein was furious with with Trump um, over this real estate betrayal. And I often think that that men of a certain level of wealth, the thing that um, angers them most is um, is a real estate betrayal. But he started to threaten Trump with lawsuits and with um going going to the press with this allegation that this is Epstein. Epstein threatened to sue Trump. Yes. Yes. Um and I've been to this house. It looks nothing like it does in this picture cuz they tore it down. They rebuilt it back up. I looked at this house uh four years ago with a realtor in Palm Beach who was showing me a bunch of homes. It's an immaculate house. I mean, the house looks it it doesn't look like a house. So it looks like a museum. It's a beautiful property. So he's threatened to sue him. Even though they're friends, he's threatened to sue him over this deal. Yes. Okay. Yes. Um as I say, rich men break down over real estate disputes. Um um at any rate, um at that point, Epstein's legal problems began. Um the police began to investigate him over allegations that he was um um that there were underage women coming to his house. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house. Um and from that point on they were they were nothing but bitter enemies. And this is what he's telling you. This is one of the instances of what he's telling you that yes that the following that that is the version of this related by Epstein. Okay. If it's a 100 hours, you know, Michael, what else did he say? Uh did he say anything about Clintons? Did he say anything about um uh uh other politicians or businessmen that you know he said he said a lot. I mean, the 100 hours is is is is is pretty much a uh in in in some sense his autobiography. He's talking through the details of his life. Trump does not occupy most of these hours. Trump, I would say, is you know 15% maybe maybe maybe more% is a lot. I mean, he keeps coming back to Trump and obviously that's one of my interests here. So, I'm pressing him on the on the Trump relationship, but he's also speaking about broadly other things. Yes, he speaks about Clinton some somewhat. Um um Clinton turned his back on Epstein after Epstein's legal problems began. So, he was I you know, I I think I think he felt that at best Clinton was a fair weather friend. Um and that was that was largely largely the regard he had for for Clinton at this at this point. Um and and there was a set of other people like like that. Um you know many people turned on on this. What other names would you So so far we have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you about? Well, yes. Yeah. Gain Maxwell. Um so Gain Maxwell who had been who had been very close to him obviously um after 2004 after the police stepped into this 2004 2005 she um very much distanced herself from um uh from Epstein and Epstein was was hurt by this. I think she distanced herself from Epstein. Yes. Yeah. They had no I mean this is a in the in this story and and obviously Galileain is so so closely linked to Epstein at this point and the and the one person in this whole scandal to go to jail. Um but the truth is that by 2004 2005 she was pretty much out of his life. Um wow. Um and um yeah, I mean a little you know again it's very hard to separate. I mean the whole facts of this of this Epstein story are clouded not least of all by the fact that that um most of the information that we get about this story is from people who don't know anything who are speculating or who are um adopting the information they have heard from somebody else who doesn't know anything. And the people who do know things are have been so um paranoid about being connected to Jeffrey Epstein that they haven't spoken. So therefore therefore everything or many of the things that we know about this this story are um soft. Did he say anything about that maybe the public doesn't know about that it stuck out? Any story that he said where you're like wow I never knew that. I think the the public needs to know this uh story about the two of them. Well, I I don't I I mean, I think what what what's not recognized is is that a that that Galain was out of his life at a relatively uh long ago moment. um that that at that while they had had a close relationship, a boyfriend girlfriend relationship for a short period after that she increasingly came became not his partner in crime but his you know his functionary his employee. she was, you know, she was getting paid and she was carrying out whatever whatever duties he told her to carry out or whatever duties she she inferred that she had to carry out. Um, so so I think again that's another misperception of this relationship. You're saying they didn't uh no longer did things together. I think she got char found guilty in 2021, December 2021, which is less than four years ago. I think she's facing 20 years right now. And it was sex trafficking of a minor, conspiracy to incite entice minors to travel to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors with intent to engage in illegal sexual activity. All all of this all of this every specific here is um relates to what happened prior to 2004 or five. Got it. So this goes back to then uh Michael when you were interviewing and and recording uh Epstein. Was it mostly in his apartment? Is that where it was at? His uh his penthouse in Manhattan. When you Well, it's not a pen it's not a penthouse. It's a it's a it's a mansion. Um 21,000 ft. I think that's the one that Lex Wexner gave him. It's a beautiful property from what I and and it is that's even another soft soft thing that it said um uh you know you hear it's 21,000 square ft. Epstein described as 55,000 square ft and and it clearly is I mean I've and you know a a a good size townhouse in New York is about you know 15,000 to 20,000 square ft. This is triple the size of a good size townhouse. I mean, it is it's on a block in Manhattan on 71st Street between um Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue, which is it's a block of these significant mansions. Um um but his dwarfs them all. So, you see, I mean, there are these big mansions which you which you would say, "Oh my god, you know, that must be a you know, who could possibly live in that? Those are amazing." And then next to his, you say you you it this is truly mind-blowing. Yeah. I mean, it's documented as the largest private residence in Manhattan, whether you call it a penthouse or whatever. So, did you ever ask him why Lex Wexner gave that to him as a gift? Um, yeah. Yes. And I I he would deny that. He would, in other words, he said yes, this was part of a financial transaction he had with with Wexner. the details of which I don't I don't exactly know, but certainly he built this as a um um that that he had bought the house from Wexter. Did did not make you kind of uh sit there and say, I mean, I'm sure you've gotten nice gifts in your life. I've had a couple nice gifts, you know, in my life. Couple of them for my friends and my wife. No one's been nice enough to give me a you know, the largest private res. You know, I once I once had a conversation with Wexner about um about this is the only time I met Wexner and he had said and I said, you know, I mean, how how did you meet, you know, Epste Epstein or something? But it I and I don't remember my question, but I remember his answer. He looked surprised and said and said, "Jeffrey made me half a billion dollars." Jeffrey made me half a billion dollars. Did he tell you how? I don't Well, I I I assume from, you know, giving him financial advice, but I don't know. U possibly investment advice. I mean, that a lot of people make a lot of people a half a billion dollars, but they don't give the biggest private residents in New York. Well, as I say, as I say, EP from Epstein's point of view, this was not a gift. It was a transaction. the nature of that transaction. I I don't know. It's a little little bit sus, you know, suspicious on what happened here. When you walked into this private residence, you know how they say that painting of uh uh President Bush and Clinton. Did you ever see those two paintings in the in the uh property? I I I I don't know the the President Bush. I s I saw I saw that one. It was in a little a little It was in a basically in a closet off the main entrance. Did you ever ask him why he has that? That's a very weird painting for you to have of a president in a dress in a painting. In a in a in a painting. That's kind of weird. Yeah. I think it was a joke painting, you know, at at one point. I I never saw that painting, so I I don't I don't know where where the Bush painting is from. Um I have seen the Clinton painting. And um you know, it was a a joke. The nature of the joke, I'm not exactly sure. Um, but it's a it's a it's a point about Epstein that that that he treated almost everything like a joke. In fact, art itself was treated like a joke. the the the piece of art above his mantle, above the fireplace on the ground floor was something he had bought on the street, just a street painting for $100 or something and then he had spent thousands and thousands of dollars on framing it. So it looked like a partly because of this frame, it looked like a significant piece of art, which it which it was not. And it amused him that many of the wealthy men he knew spent enormous amounts of money on on art, which he considered a a kind of vanity or even a and pretention on possibly a fraud. Yeah. I mean so very very interesting when you think about so you saw the painting Bill Clinton's President Bill Clinton's if you're going to play a joke and you're going to have all these guests that come in I don't know if the former who would you know Barack that these guys are coming over 36 times if if I'm living in America I don't know if I'm going to have a painting of the president like that in my house to make fun of the president. it undermines the leader of my country or there's some people that speculate that this was one way of him saying hey I have you Bill you better and there's a lot of different speculations I I don't know I mean he certainly didn't have him and you know the Clinton's bill particularly walked out of his life after the um uh the investigation started so the the painting may have been a kind of there may have been some bitterness in this painting and he kept this this this painting and I don't really know where the painting came from. Um, but he was certainly not, you know, again, I you know, I think it hurt him that that that Clinton turned on him like that. And that would even that would be a validation of to say now that you turned on me and distanced yourself from me after all the fun you had with me traveling without Secret Service just so you know you better not screw me cuz I know you know what I know about you in a very dark way that would make sense to say everyone that comes here better not come after me because I'm I know what you know what I know about you. Well, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's possible except that obviously people did come after him. Um, and um, you know, there was no, you know, I I think at various points and there were people who wanted him to spill or share information about Clinton. Um, and I don't think that that I I mean to my knowledge that never happened. And um um you you know I mean I think that was that was always a possibility in a in a sense that Epstein believed in the in the investigation the initial investigation of him in Florida. So, the investigation of him in Florida, as I understand, began as a um as a state investigation, actually, a local investigation by the by the by the police in Palm Beach, and then it was taken over um by the feds, which would have been unusual. Um, and Epstein believed that that was an effort by people in the Bush administration then to get information about Bill Clinton. Um, is this the Palm Beach story with the parents of the 14-year-old girl that said that, you know, she was molested by him? This is the story. This is the first investigation investigation which began in 2004 and then sent him to jail. And I don't know in your in your eyes, Michael, having having spent as much time as you did with him, do you think Epstein is a bad guy? Well, he's clearly a bad guy. I mean, he clearly did things that I would not do and you would not do and we would hope that the people we know would not would not do. Um and um so so yeah, I mean, he's a sex offender. He went to jail. Um but is he a is he in addition to that an intelligent guy, a knowledgeable guy, a guy who had um um who had insights to offer? I would say in my experience, yes. Um does one cancel out the other? No. But they exist together. To totally makes sense. I I've met a lot of guys that are extremely knowledgeable and and fun, even fun to talk to, but you know, they've done something. I interviewed Sammy Deul Gravano. He's got to be one of the best storytellers I've met in my life. Yes. I mean, I've I've I have a kind of specialty in bad guys. I know you do. That's um you know, and um you know, I know a lot of bad guys. Well, it's your world for me. They're not they're not gangsters. They're guys who are um I would consider as you probably know Donald Trump to be a bad guy. Okay. So you so so you think Donald Trump is a bad guy and and you think Epstein is also a bad guy. So yeah and I and I think and and it's always I think Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are very much similar people. Um, that's why Epstein, knowing Epstein, Epstein supplies a window into who Donald Trump is because they were a so close but also so close in their in their interests. Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are. So for us, if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value tamement gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic. I'm excited about what's going to be happening. But you're a freeth thinker. You question things, you like debate. And by the way, last year 120,000 people got a piece of future looks bright gear with value tamement. We have so many new things. The cuff links are here. New future looks bright. This is my favorite, the green one. Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for a hundred of these. If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from. White ones, black ones. I I if you if you if you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high quality lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars. We got sweaters with the value tamement logo on it. We got mugs. We got a bunch of different things. But if you believe the future looks bright if you follow our content and what we represent with Value Tamement with with PBD podcast, go to vtmerch.com. And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you. So again, go to vtamers.com, place your order, tell the world that you believe the future looks bright. So, okay. So, let's let's let's go there. With the 100 hours that you have, are there are is there anything in there? Like, let's just say I'm an interested buyer. I would be interested in buying the 100 hours that you have. I would be interested in buying Bannon's 15 16 hours that he has, right? I would be interested in both of them. How? Let me just add about Bannon's um what what the what the hours that Bannon has is that Ban I wouldn't buy them from Bannon if I were you because Bannon does not owe own them. Oh, who owns them? I didn't know that. The Yeah. Jeffrey Epstein paid for those those those tapes. Um that So the trust owns it. Yes. Oh yes. The estate owns it. The estate owns it. So wow. Okay. So that's that's a new fact. I didn't know the fact that the you know that recording is not so Bannon couldn't sell it if he tried. So if he wanted to do a documentary he would never be able to use those hours in a documentary. Yes. And again and again let me let me stress that that although Steve who I am personally fond of um but um but Steve's cover here that he was making a documentary about Epstein is 100% not true. I know this because I was there and um um am fully aware and actually have it on tape of what of what transpired here and that was Bannon's effort to help Epstein with his legal problems and this would be in um 2019 when the law was closing in on Epstein and um Bannon's suggestion was that Epstein go on national TV to try to perform a miaulpa or explain or humanize himself in some way and then Bannon offered to help prepare him. So essentially what be what Bannon was doing was media training. Um he was tutoring Epstein in how to face a hostile interview on a you know a hypothetical 60 minutes. Got it. So more of a training, a PR uh uh than anything else. So let's let's talk about your 100 hours that you have with them. How many how much information is in there that it's bombshell, you know, you know, earthshattering type of information where the public should know about out of the 100 hours you have with them? Well, you know, it's a it's a funny aspect of this and you know, people call call me up now. you know, people of significant standing and say, "Is there um, you know, on the tapes, is does does Epstein promise Trump um um uh young girls um or does does um Epstein promise banning young girl?" I It's that kind of thing. And and I'm and I'm and I kind of say, you know, I don't know, you know, you've obviously never done interviews with with with with people. I mean when they ask that kind of thing um you know these these conversations unfold um over a long period of over a long period and these are conversations like life itself. Um Epstein is talking about his life. There's lots and lots of details. There's lots of information that would be surprising. Um, I suppose there are, um, um, you know, the Daily Mail could go through this and pull out a thousand headlines that that that would seem headline worthy. When you listen to these tapes or when you were present, as I was during during these things, you don't have that feeling. um you have the feeling that this is incredibly interesting, fascinating, and it exposes a a life. Um so what you get is a life rather than than headlines. Although, as I say, I'm sure you could go through this and pull out the sound bites, which would then add up to to headlines. Would would the FBI or the DOJ benefit from having access to these 100 hours? Well, benefit for what purpose? Since Jeffrey Epstein is already um uh dead? No, not not necessarily. We know he's already dead. just to gather more intel. Would the FBI or the DOJ, if they're trying to get to the bottom of this, would they be would they get Well, I think it's a question of what they're of what they're trying to be get to the bottom of. If they are trying to get to the bottom of who Jeffrey Epstein was, about the real nature of Jeffrey Epstein's personality, about Jeffrey Epstein's not only his weaknesses but his strengths. Um, if they if the EPS if the if the FBI and the DOJ were biographers as I am, they would find it interesting. But since they are not biographers, I think that they would probably be um uh they would probably be less less interested than certainly I am. The FBI's job uh you know different than CIA. CIA is international, foreign. FBI is uh uh domestic. Their job is to make sure, you know, families in America are going to be safe, Americans are going to be safe. So, anybody that's tied to this or to even eliminate or address a future next Epstein, they would probably benefit from studying the patterns of how this guy communicates. And if that's the case, has the FBI have has the Department of Justice, have they at all reached out to you since you've had these for six years, whether it's under Biden or Obama to say Biden or Trump to say, "Hey, Michael, we think we need access to this uh recording that you have. No, they they haven't and they probably haven't for a lot of reasons. First, I'm a journalist and a writer. Therefore therefore that becomes a complicated a complicated thing. I mean, you know, Epstein was a source for what I was what I was doing. So, I think that they understand the difficulties there. Um, and then I also think they're probably unclear on what they probably have no goals. There is probably no open investigation of of of um of Jeffrey Epstein and of course to what point he is dead and there's no there's no to my knowledge open investigation of anyone else involved with Jeffrey Epstein. Um Galain is obviously um um has obviously been that's been convicted. I mean she's been convicted. She's in jail and is now headed toward a pardon. So I don't think that there is um that there is any any issue there. So so again crossing these disciplines of of of someone who has been interested in someone has material that that that reflects the full life of this of this man. And then the the FBI and the DOJ who are not interested in the full life of this man. They're interested in only their from their their highly segmented view of any given person. Yeah. But not even a door knock, right? You've not even gotten a door knock on them. Hey, Michael, can we see this? You've had nothing. No email, no door knock, no text, no phone call. Nope. Okay. And if you were to sell it to an interested party, what would be the range of your asking price? I it wouldn't sell it. It's not it's not for sale. Okay. So, you're not selling it. I got it. No, I I'm not a I'm you know, I'm not a No, I'm a writer. So, this is a story that that I think is worth telling as a writer. It it's a story that um you know, I I mean, it's a it's a pretty interesting story for me. So, um, so how I tell it and when I tell it, you know, is a kind of an organic and natural process, but, um, um, I don't know why I got the impression that you were open to selling it and you you said some people reached out or they didn't or you were surprised. No, no, no. I mean, I have spoken to many, many outlets and and you know, but it is about telling this story. Um it is not about I I would never sell this. I would never um you know this is this is and this is an important aspect of being a writer and a journalist. This is my story. Makes sense. Not anyone else's story. I respect it. I respect it. Michael, uh on the topic of uh you know uh u with his meeting, did you ever ask him about because you know a lot of I've sat down with his brother. I did on the topic on the topic of I I've interviewed his brother Mark Epste. He came to my cigar lounge about I don't know year and a half, two years ago. I don't know the exact date, but he was with us for a couple hours and we sat down. We had a lot of conversations with actually an interesting conversation. I enjoy talking to the guy uh on on what he had to say. You'll hear the name being dropped of MSAD regularly that he had ties back to MSAD. I mean, why would E who would Barack visit his place 36 times? Why would he, you know, regularly have access to the White House when he would go see Clinton? Did you get a feeling from the 100 hours you guys spoke together that there was any ties to the massage? Sure. Sure. Let let me let me let me give you precisely my feeling cuz I don't know and and you know Epstein I think it's very possible to say left Epstein live lived a very compartmentalized life. You saw what he wanted wanted you to see. Um, but I had been at Epstein's house many, many, many times when Ahood Barack was there. Um, certainly a dozen times, maybe, maybe more. Oh, wow. Um, and um, and uh, Ahood Barack and Jeffrey Epstein were very close. I mean, I think among, you know, they were they were certainly among each other's closer friends. Um and um and uh you know I think it's been documented that that Ahoud Barack got money from Epstein and um uh they were had various various business dealings together but also they clearly enjoyed each other. Um I mean I saw this again and again and again. Um and and and obviously Ahoud Barack has a had a had a very clear connection to Mossad. Um although Ahud Barack the former a former prime minister was out of out of power but very much enga knowledgeable about and engaged in the um Israeli politics and the Israeli um power structure. Having said that and and therefore um Epstein himself was very knowledgeable about um um about about Israel, about its interests, about um about its politics and and to a degree about its intelligence. My view of of Epstein, however, is that he was he possessed the information he possessed would be better characterized as gossip rather than intelligence. And and Epstein was a great gossip, a great purveyor of information um and information in whatever form. And he was and he was a purveyor of that information to a wide variety of people. I mean he certainly was not was not uh he certainly had no one client he was passing information to. Information was part of Epstein's currency and it was and and it was a currency that he used for I think financial gain but also for social climbing. So, one of the reasons people would come to Epstein's house and sit around his table is that you would hear things that that the New York Times didn't know. Um, and um um but but this was not this was not carefully shared. This was as as I say um uh a gossip's um currency. I mean, some would say gossip and Intel are cousins. you know, they're somewhat related. I can still guess I'm not sure that they are that they are are related. They're just not the same thing. And I'm not sure that if you would that you would necessarily um want your intelligence agent to be one of the world's biggest gossips because he couldn't contain himself. He would tell anyone anything. He couldn't contain himself. Epstein couldn't contain himself. So, he was always talking. Always. So then that's that's actually that that makes for a terrible misad terrible CIS because and and a part of it which is kind of weird when when he said they had a at one point Ahoud Barack they had a scheduled monthly meeting I think 15 consecutive months and one time in and these happened like at 2015 2017 2013 if I'm not mistaken somebody can search this and verify it and even at one point Ahoud Barack said I actually didn't know about his dealings in the past I didn't know that he had these things that were said which is kind of naive to say that being the prime minister of Israel Ahood is is is is full of Um you know Ahood knew Jeffrey I mean I mean did Ahood know that Jeffrey's that that Jeffrey Epstein had clearly had a fetish for young girls? I don't know. I don't know to what extent um Ahood knew that, but Ahood certainly was not did not know as he now represents um Jeffrey Epstein on a casual basis. They were close close close friends. Did you what did you what was your feeling about Ahwood when you were around? Was it just like it was nonchalant? They were just hanging out because the investment Epstein had made I think in Carbine 911 or did you what feeling did you get from him? Yeah. Good, bad, indifferent. Completely completely the Ahood was there came to Jeff Jeffrey Epstein's cuz he enjoyed it. He enjoyed meeting other people. He enjoyed I mean Ahood who as I say I, you know, have spent a lot of time with with now. Ahood is an incredible gas. Um I you know I think that he will go oh my god what you know he would go anywhere he would be anywhere in any situation in which people were um he had a captive audience to listen to him go on and on and on and on and and uh you know and Jeffrey Epstein listened to him. He indulged um him for you know I I mean I mean Ahood Ahood gave you know I I mean I would say in any hour block of conversation a a hood might supply five minutes of of interesting information when you were 55 minutes that others you would have to I haven't heard that word in a long time. Did you see were when you were there on your visits, did you see young girls there? Did you see a lot of pretty girls there? Did you see models there? Was that something that was part of the energy of being in this place or not at all? Yes, there there were always um a a a set of young women and and I mean young women, they would clearly have been in their 20s. Okay. Um um you know, possibly even late 20s. Um that's all for Indoa. I wouldn't be surprised if you Yes. Yeah. No. Who were there as assistants and um you know basically uh basically assistance um um define assistance because there's a lot of ways to assist men. Well, no. They they did they took they they made his appointments and they um Oh, assistants like assistants or do you think they were assisting like they were assistants? Like like they were the receptionists. They were the the this would come in. They would they would bring him. Forgive me. I thought you meant something else. So, okay. So, you're saying they were his personal assistants that were there. And are they bringing you tea, coffee? Hey, would you like some? Yes, they did. They did. They did all all of all of that. I mean, I always equated them, you know, if you live in New York, where I've lived for for a long time, you know, there are high-end art galleries um in which there are always clearly young women who are the receptionists and who are there to to kind of guide you um give you information. And they all are are clearly chosen because of of of the their poise and the way they they present and and that's what the these women in Epstein's house and I think they were different from the women, you know, the massage women in Palm Beach and than the set of Eastern European models that that um uh that that would that you would occasionally see. Um, you know, I think that there this this was so this was part of this carefully orchestrated ecosystem of women around Jeffrey. When you when you were at his place, did Bill Gates or Barack Obama ever come by or No, you you you did not see them there. No, I don't I don't think Barack Obama knows knows um Epstein. Um uh Bill Gates. Yes. So, Bill, you did see Bill Gates visit. So, he was around. Oh, okay. Got it. So, I think his wife at the end, you know, when she said something in one of the interviews where she's like, I was not comfortable how close he was getting to Epstein. And even Bill Gates in another interview later on said, yes, I probably shouldn't have gotten close to him, etc., etc. We've seen this interview. You you've definitely have seen this. Yeah. Oh, and I think that that's a I I mean I think Gates and and Epstein were actually quite close and certainly as long ago as you know 2014. Um Epstein related conversations to me about about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife. So I think that it was a um you know and I mean one of the things that that Epstein did and one of the things that he was involved in when he when he was involved with these very very wealthy men he got involved in in family matters that impacted on the fortunes on these various fortunes. Um and obviously interesting divorce impacts on a great fortune. Got it. So this is the whole idea about hey let's take this money and put it elsewhere pre- getting married and pay a consulting fee to prevent from having to pay half of it. Creative ways of not paying as much to your spouse if you go through a divorce. Yes. Okay. Got it. Uh, in regards to the business model, did you guys talk about how he makes money? I mean, how he originally made his money because I've never we did, and that's always, you know, I think that that's one of those um one of those aspects of his life that was very compartmentalized. I mean, I've had this discussion with him, but do not feel that I um I I I certainly didn't feel that I was getting the whole story. Um quite quite the opposite. It was rather he was he he kind of teased you with the story. Um you know for at at um I mean he told me once he said when I pressed him you know and I said okay tell me come on where where it is where does the dough come from? Um um I mean I've seen him you know in in in many instances I never saw him however do a lick of work. Um so what was going on? Where did this come from? And he said, and I remember he said in this again in a very in a very teasy kind of way, he said, "Well, I run something like a reverse Ponzi scheme. In a real Ponzi scheme, um, you make money, um, that does not exist appear to exist. In my Ponzi scheme, I make money that exists appear not to exist." Um, and the example was if you're a wealth very wealthy person and um getting a divorce and if you hide $100 million or at least make a $100 million of your wealth disappear, you've just made saved $50 million. Yeah. There was a guy that Mark Epste told me that was Epstein's mentor. I I don't remember the gentleman's name. He went away and he was in the uh uh Stephen uh what's his name? Steven Hofberg. He's Stephen. Yes. Hoffenberg. I don't know if you know about Okay. Yeah. So, I do. Did that name ever come up or no between the two of you? You know, it came up in the um Hoffenberg who who um Epstein had been involved with and Hoffenberg had an insurance company that collapsed. Um and um and Hoffenberg went to jail for a for a long time, like I I I don't like 15 years. Um and then he got out of jail and he started to press Epstein. Um for what I I don't exactly know. Um but but it was that was something I was aware of going on in the in the background. Um um now Mark Epstein just by the way you know had also not been really his relationship with his brother had had been was at best strained for quite a number of years. He said that as well. He said that as well that they were not as close. I said you guys live a few minutes with each other. How often you guys have dinner or lunch together? Not that often. Maybe once every couple. I'm like you're a few minutes away. So that that was a very interesting dynamic as well the relationship between No my and my understanding of of that and I don't have a complete understanding because I mean that was not something that Epstein seemed to want to talk about um was that his brother distance after Epstein's legal difficulties beginning in 2004 his brother like Gain distanced himself from uh uh from uh Jeffrey Epstein. So two people who he contacted last before he passed away. One of them was his German girlfriend whose career she was not German. She was um from as I understand um and I mean I had met her a few times from Bellarus. She was from Bellarus. We got to get this right because you know the guy's her name is Karina Shulak. Karina Shulak. Barus. Barus. Okay. So from Barus and I said German. Forgive me to all the people from Barus. I didn't want to offend you. So, uh uh so so she he calls her last one, but he texts you last. What were the last text exchanges with him? And exactly how much longer after his last text you did he die? Yeah. You know, I think that I mean and he it was not a text really. It was it came through his lawyers, so he couldn't text. He was given they had gotten him the um clearance to call the girlfriend. Um um but my my the message to me had come through one of the lawyers. I mean I knew the lawyers and I passed them a message. I said, you know, I mean just and the message that I said to him was, you know, uh you know, how are you doing or you know, just that kind of that kind of thing. and and his response to that message was um and let's the context of this is that about a week before he had apparently tried to hang himself or that's what people said or again a confusing situation but his response to me was quote still hanging around. So how are you still hanging around? And then x number of hours later, I mean, this was on Friday, early on Saturday morning, he was um um found, you know, with a bed sheet around his neck in his Well, that's a weird text. So So the lawyer sends you a text of his last mention saying still hanging around. Maybe he was hanging around, meaning the lawyer saying he's dying. So the lawyer told you still hanging around. That could be a cryptic message. Well, I I I mean I I don't know. I mean, it is a cryptic message, but you know, it is I I I mean, in in my understanding of of Epstein and how he responded to things, he was responding to that the the the news coverage of that he had apparently tried to hang himself, but then they actually said he hadn't tried. There was a there was a dispute about that and that was his reference to make a joke out of that which would have been very Jeffrey Epstein like ish. Did Did Nicholas uh Tortugleiano ever come up the the his cellmate the guy that you know multiple times beat up uh uh uh the same person on four different occasions? It didn't come up did not come up with with me. I mean those are the communi that's the only communication I would have had with with um or direct communication with the last few minutes we have together here Michael. So this is why I wish this was face to face. We could go four hours but um last last uh conversation about Trump. So you're you're not a fan of Trump. Some would even say you know you have uh uh you have animosity towards him, maybe even hate towards him. It's felt that way if I watch you in the interviews. What what where does your feeling towards I I don't I mean I you know I I feel that that um that Donald Trump is should not be the president of the United States is not is not the kind of person I would certainly elect as the president of the United States is not the kind of person who can carry out what I know to be the demands of being the president of the United States. Um I mean Donald Trump I I don't hate Donald Trump. I have no personal animosity toward Donald Trump. As a matter of fact, when we get when we're together, we we get along just fine. Um, and I've known Donald Trump for quite a long time back in in in uh in New York days. Um, so, um, I, you know, I just I just I just feel that all of his his impulses as the president of the United States are ultimately damaging. and um um and um and counterproductive. You you think some of these stories of, you know, Melania, you know, how he met her and Epstein ties, you you do you think some of these could be coming from a place because everybody tried to get them on Russia that came back. That wasn't good. Everybody tried to get him on all this stuff with 2024. Hey, here's his mug shot. And every single time it seems like it's become the next hoax and the next host. So maybe people right now are saying, you really think there's any ties with Epstein and Trump? Anything that they people need to know? There are clearly ties with Epstein and Trump. I mean, the idea anything nefarious nefarious nefarious. Well, I I it's how you define I I don't know. This is what I know. I won't even try to define that that they were friends for well more than a decade almost almost 15 years. They were interested, both of them were interested primarily in and the two things they were interested in were women, girls, and money, get-rich quick money stuff. Um, and uh, and the girls w women, girls they were interested in obsessively so, fetishistically in a way were models. And remember, this was the age of the model. um superm models, runway models, catalog models, Eastern European models, and a wide population of girls who just dreamed of being models. That's what that's what they saw as status. That was the thing that turned them on, I suppose. Um you know, Trump's interest in beauty pageantss, Epstein with with Victoria's Secret girls. Um that's what they were in constant pursuit of. Um and um um and then people say to me, "But you don't mean to say that that Donald Trump was interested in little girls." And I and I say I I listen I all what I know is they were interested in models. How old are models? models in certainly at that point in time were anywhere from you know I don't know 14 to 20 basically I don't when I hear models I don't think 14 to 20 I think you know well then you would be incorrect in that because that's what they were yeah no I I I'm sure there's young models there I'm sure there's and that's not what I'm saying but what I'm saying is you know it's easy to the gossip intel when they flirt with each other Right. So that leads to accusations and then everyone's writing about it and then next thing you know like the story you know the story I read about Princess Diana you know the competition between the two. Did you share that story or was that story shared by somebody? I did. Would you mind sharing that story? Well that was just a kind of you you know they were they were deeply interested in in the royal family both both of them. And why were they interested in the royal family? because the royal family was a was a great social climbing vector. You remember Donald Trump, both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are always trying to raise money. Where do we get money from? And you know, Donald Trump by that point had gone through several bankruptcies. I mean, nobody at this point is blue chip. So, how do you raise money? Fairly large sums of money. Well, you raise money by knowing people who can give you access to money. How do you know those people? Well, there are lots of ways, lots of social climbing ways, but one of them, the best ways is to know someone in the royal family. So it was both Donald Trump and and Jeffrey Epstein became in hot pursuit of access to the royal family most successfully with Prince Andrew. But at one point then they had this competition and it was you know this was this I don't know how serious this was or how it was just to amuse them about who would be the first one to sleep with Diana. This was after the marriage to Charles had basically broken up. Did anybody win that? I don't know. I don't know if Jeffrey told you this, but Michael, I I uh uh we're at the time of 1 hour. I want to respect your time and the calendar and schedule you gave me. I uh I appreciate the time. I know it's not often you get on podcasts that are maybe not mainstream or somebody that could be potentially seen as the complete opposite side. So, I appreciate you for making the time and uh I'm delight delighted because I am uh listen many of the most of the people I seem to spend my time with are actually um are actually Trump Trump people who I have over 10 years which is why I'm so well sourced become very friendly with them. I I I like Trump people. Very cool. Why I don't like Trump but I like Trump people. But you have good times with Trump. So I don't know what happened there between the two of you guys. It sounds like you enjoy his time. just maybe not like his policies and the way he goes. I I always find I mean I mean spending time with with with with with Trump is always certainly fascinating. Makes sense. Uh Michael, till next time. Thank you so much for your time. We're going to put the link to all your books below as well for those who want to go pick up the books. Thank you again. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are. So for us, if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value tamement gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic. I'm excited about what's going to be happening. But you're a freethinker. You question things. You like debate. And by the way, last year 120,000 people got a piece of future looks bright gear with value tamement. We have so many new things. The cuff links are here. New future looks bright. This is my favorite, the green one. Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for a hundred of these. If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from. 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