>> You're all but you're all bubbly, like your shoes. Show off the shoes. >> shoes are fire. $89 North Face, light travel, good for the winter. You can wear them inside or outside. >> kind of scrunch up a little bit? >> Yeah, uh Or you can like pack them easier in a bag. >> can pack them pretty light. They're good for in-house or out of the Yeah, you know you when you pack a small bag for the airport, the biggest thing, you take two pairs of shoes, it takes up the whole like bottom quartile of the bag. So, you got to squish them. Dude, once you have a kid, you just don't you just bring bags. It's just It's just luggages. And then it's just like I don't even care anymore. I'm like, "Six shoes, I'll bring six shoes." I used to, you know, everyone used to one bag. And then once you have kids, >> >> it's just like diapers is one thing, and then you bring her We bring her like bottle warmer. We got a lot of stuff now. Yeah. We Okay, I've been surprisingly okay with We've tried to make our place the best with a kid as like not kid-looking as possible, but I think like as the kid gets older, it's like it's not going to happen, right? You get more and more stuff as they go. I don't know. You know, like what do you think about like it as much? What? No, the the thing with the The thing with the kid what I find fascinating was like when I I got my house like this nice, you know, you have a house, nice house. And then I was like, "Oh, take your shoes off. Don't don't touch the wall." Like how I was raised. Like um So, dude, oh my god. People were eating cookies on my couch 2 days ago without plates. I was like I was like, "Who Who are you? Like where were you raised?" Now I I I don't care at all. Like you could You could My daughter's drawing on the floor. What happened? Like she takes her car, she she's obsessed with this little pink car. She's slamming into walls. I'm like, "Just burn it. I don't care about this stuff anymore." Like I've just relaxed cuz it's like it's just stuff, and I'd rather have her be happy and enjoy the house. Yeah, I mean, that's going to happen. Cookies on a plate? Without a plate. Without a napkin. >> What about I just do that with the the hand sometimes? It's going to get through. Yeah, a little crumb here and >> that? >> His Yeah, you vacuum it up. Well, you know what was interes- Sharon. The thing that was interesting, they brought over wine. And then when you bring over wine, I was like, "Well, do I get Do they want to drink their wine or is it like a gift wine? >> >> And then like they brought nice bottles of wine, so I was like, well, do I have to give them nice sodas or nice beers to drink? Like is it need to be an equal exchange? And so then after these guys left and also they brought the cookies, but they were eating them on the the couch, which was unacceptable. Which I I guess I also don't care about. Um I felt guilty. I was like, dude, these guys came over, didn't eat a lot of chips, they only had one beer each, and they both left me two bottles of wine. Mhm. So then I text them the next day. I was like, guys, I need I feel guilty that you brought this good wine. I only gave you a beer. So let's have a wine party now. What did they say? They said >> Did they actually want the wine? I don't know cuz I was like, do you guys want to open this bottle of wine? It's like, what's the protocol? This is a Seinfeld episode. Is that what happened in Seinfeld? >> This is the the the Bobka episode. He He brings bread, they didn't serve it, so they take it back. Ooh. And then they find out they're like, did they take it back? That's crazy. >> >> They're like, well, we brought bread, you didn't put it out, so we're not just giving you bread. Whose side are you on? protocol Like, do you take your things back? Or if you bring a bottle of something to someone's house, you're like, I want this to be drank. I want to drink this with you. It's not to be stationed in your closet or wherever. It's not for later. This is why I like pop-ins with our friends. There's no like pretense of like, oh, they're coming over, we got to host. Pop in, I'm like, hey, you're not prepared, who cares? Like and then we hang out for 5 minutes and leave. That's the best. That is Well, it's I was trying to I was thinking about the difference between my mother and my wife's mother. My wife's mom you can pop pop in. You can call her. And she's like, hey, how's it going? Good. Oh, baby's crying, got to go. Bye. My mom, it's just not possible. So we don't call as much. My mom is like, ah, now what? Hold on, one more thing. And I'm like, Mom, I got to go. She can't pop in nothing. But on the same topic, what I was thinking about was like, who brings over good stuff to houses? I think that's such an honest like such a great skill. So like Nick Gray, Uh-huh. Nick Gray's come over twice. We had a bagel party. He brought over two giant bags of bagels, cream cheese, three locks, um capers, two bags of capers, orange juice. And I'm like, "Nick, can I how much do I Venmo you?" He's like, "Don't even worry about it." And it's I don't know, it's just something that like sticks with me which is like one, I want to be around him cuz he's going to pay for things. Actually, we did Yeah, we did white elephant. They brought all the food. That was That's not cheap, too. You don't like we're eating >> like nice That was like catering. >> Yeah, where like a lady came inside and catered it. >> Oh, really? Yeah, a lady came inside. We thought it was you and it was like the catering lady. And she came in and like set up all the food and stuff, too. And that was must have been $200 of food, but I think it was It's one of these things where I don't know, I really appreciated that like they're just like, "We have the money. We're just going to spend on the food. You don't have to worry about it." And it's like if you're rich, it's much easier to be generous. Cuz if you're poor, you can't spend 200 bucks on food. If you're rich, you'd be like, "200 bucks, who cares?" Right? So, you you look more generous cuz you can just do more stuff. I was thinking if you're rich or poor, like I had lunch with a guy a few days ago and he had like he left all the food on his plate. And I was like, "You're not going to eat the chicken wings?" So, I took his chicken >> >> What do you think of this? I was flirting with this concept. When you're really rich, it's like you're a magician. You can just do things that other people can't do. Go What was What What triggered that thought? >> Yeah, let's say we want to go to Las Vegas right now and you're kind of like middle class, you're going to be like, "Well, you know, I got to take off work. I got to do this. I got to look for the best price flight. I got to get a budget hotel." If you're super rich, you just like text someone, voice note them, "A plane is ready. You're dropped off. Black car. Something happens and you're in a suite." And then you come back the same day on the plane. That's something that just an ordinary person couldn't do. That's kind of like magic. That is magic. I was thinking more on the conceptually where like if you're rich, it I really see how rich people just get richer. Like you know when people say that? They're like, "The rich just get richer." I'm like, "How?" Cuz if you If you're poor and you invest You want to invest in Bitcoin or something back in the day, you put 200 bucks in it. If you're rich, you'd be like, "I'll put a million." And And you get these crazy returns. Versus someone like, "Oh, I made $10,000." That's cool, but it's not like life-changing. Well, I think they can take bigger risks, right? Cuz there's more capital for them to to go off of. And then I think theoretically like their compounding is absolute bigger numbers. So, like even if they're in the S&P 500 doing 10, 20% it's like on a million that's whatever, 20 $200,000 versus like if you have 10,000 or 5,000 or no thousand the absolute number is much smaller. >> it's the Buffett thing where he never I mean he does sell, but like never sell. And it's this power law. Where if you just never sell any of your investments, yeah sure a lot of them will crap out or plateau, but a few of them will go so big. You'll have like the Nvidias, the Googles, whatever happen every once in a while. Whereas someone who needs the money eventually sells that to like buy a house, buy a car, something along those lines. Whereas really rich people like have enough money to live on. Like I don't need any more. So, they can just let their investments ride forever. Which is I don't know. I think there's just You know you know Financial Samurai? Mhm. He's talked about it and I I think I'm trying to understand it better, which is um Like conceptually we're we all are in like accumulation mode. And his concept, which I I think I'm still trying I'm trying to work on better is like decumulation. Mhm. Right? Like so, decumulation is like you you've collected the more money and you've put it in, you know, index funds and you're letting it compound and it's like until what? Until when? Is it really like you hit the retirement age and then you start trying to taper it off? Is it die with zero where you try to balance using it while while you're in your peak physical abilities? Yeah, this is like the Bill Perkins theory, right? Of die with zero. >> I was Like I love that concept and I think it's great. I think it's kind of like an extenuation of like Tim Ferriss's original thing of like don't wait till later. Like do it now. Totally. So, I I think you know, people have had this idea and reiterated it in several great ways. But I think for him he's just like die with zero. But like if you follow his Instagram now you you know Bill Perkins, right? >> I've got to meet him though. >> He's also doing like crazy stuff in life. And I'm just like that's a that's a rich way to die with zero. He's trying to spend like a billion dollars. I think if you have like $100,000 I I wonder if it's like it seems harder. I think that's a question where you have like so much house money, right? And you could start accumulating it. I'm trying to think of how differently I would live. Like I would say like having more money over the years, like being in the 40s, which is is definitely older. I'm like, "Wow, I'm 40." Um the luxuries are that I spend on I find interesting. Like I was telling I think I was talking with you yesterday with Catherine Catherine at lunch. We're like spending on a nanny to me is like almost like priceless spend. Mhm. Like that's a big deaccumulation where like we spent It was actually pretty affordable. For 5 days in Mexico it was $700. Mhm. For a nanny all day. >> so bad. That's not bad at all. Or and we did Japan trip. And every time we haven't paid for a nanny, it's definitely more stressful on the family. >> Mhm. So that to me is like luxury Excuse me. luxury deaccumulation of sorts. Mhm. So it's like how do I do How do I do more I don't know if I want to do necessarily more of that. Cuz sometimes it's nice to have this Like I was going to tell the nanny to come early today so I could sleep in. Mhm. I was like I want to wake up early. I want to be with my daughter in these moments even if I'm a little tired. So I think there is some balance of spending to get rid of these things, >> Yeah. but also going through the experiences. We're in the I mean we're a little further behind than you. So we're at the 2-month mark right now. And so we had a grandma here and that was super helpful because we didn't really have to do much or like I mean we're doing things, but obviously having a third person there that intrinsically loves the child, you you is capable, and that you also trust is really really helpful. And would also like cook and stuff for my wife and do whatever she wanted to. That was super helpful. So this is the first week we're doing it solo to see what type of help we need cuz we actually don't know yet. What did you What have you noticed since the grandma's not there? Uh I go to sleep at 8:00 p.m. and wake up at 4:00 a.m., which sounds crazy, but that's a four that's an 8-hour sleep block. Okay. So I sleep a full 8 hours, wake up at 4:00 a.m., and then it's weird waking up at 4:00 a.m. and like not having much to do, but then you're not tired. Are you So, when you get up at 4:00, you guys are sleeping in the same bed? No. I go we go upstairs. Whoever's like sleeping for a long block will go upstairs so we like can't hear the baby or anything at all and get like total sleep and the person downstairs handling it. So, she'll she'll stay up and just he has a bed in his room. Then we'll switch off and she stays up till 4:00. I mean, he he's sleeping so she's cat napping. But here's the thing, she can cat nap, I can't. I can't like fall asleep and then wake back up. Her ordering score goes up throughout the day. Like once I'm up, mine just stays. Okay. >> So, so she'll do that and then I'll get up and then if I didn't sleep too well or something like that, I'll go back to sleep too if he's sleeping for a little while. But right now we're in that phase where it's like he doesn't sleep for more than two hours yet. So, it's kind of like wake up wake up like that. But what do you do >> pretty fun and then at 7:00 in the morning I'll go walk to the coffee shop with them or something like that. Little tush baby and like walk with them. He wants to get up and walk around and so do I. He wants to walk at two months. He's walking. I'll carry him. And then he's very mature. >> >> And then and then he's kind of up like he he knows it's daytime. It's weird. He'll start getting up and then um and I'll do work in like in the morning if I need to. So, that's been kind of interesting. So, I've noticed that that has been um like just doing work early in the morning just finishing everything by let's say like 10:00. That's kind of a weird thing. It's got kind of a weird schedule. What What do you do at 4:00 a.m.? What are you thinking? What are you doing? Just scroll Instagram. I chat GPT. If I'm just sitting there, yeah, oh, I post on our private Instagram. So, I like spend time to like create like a memory from the day before or something like that. Just like documenting all this kind of stuff cuz it goes by so quick. So, I'll do that kind of stuff. Sometimes sleep, but if I get enough sleep, I slept for eight hours right before that, I don't need to sleep. Um sometimes I'll grab him and just let him sleep on me. God, it's the best. It's the best. I know. He's so small and tiny. It really is like biologically fulfilling. There's something about it. So I do It's >> like like charging pad. >> >> On your belly. Yeah. But I I could see like in the future, so for like we're trying to see like where would we need help. I could see like the benefit of like a night nurse or something like that to let us both sleep. Uh for example, we've been working out together. Ever We don't do the same things. We go to the garage gym and work out together. And that's been good cuz like we're not like as motivated to work out, but if she's there, she works out harder and I work out harder. Mhm. So we both work out harder if we're around. So we try to do it together. But now if we have the the baby, so before we could just give it off to someone. So now we put him in the gym. But the problem is he'll start to fuss or something like that every once in a while someone's got to go get him. It's not quite the same vibe. So I think for something like that it would be nice to have some help like during those times. And like if there's a nanny around get a workout in or something like that. >> to be robot nannies 100%. When do you think that'll happen? In our lifetime, 100%. >> Like after there's like the Tesla Optimus, the figure robot. The thing that's hap- Think about what everything that's happening. Everything that's happening is everybody's getting rich people things. That's what's happening. Right? Like Uber and all this stuff and like this nanny thing is like everyone's doing is a rich person now. Like you don't you have these luxuries that like used to be inaccessible. Like living on a beach was inaccessible. And now it's available to everyone. And so I think this nanny thing will be like I don't know, a few hundred bucks a month, which most people probably could afford versus a daycare and have like an AI perfect nanny that even looks like a human. You can't even tell. You know what it reminds me of? You know the in the scene Terminator 2 where he's just like he's watching guard with that that gas station he has a gun over his shoulder and just stays up all night. They show them sleeping but him guarding. I'm just like that's what like a Tesla Optimus would do. It would just sit there and watch the baby. And as soon as it needed something or it was hurt or anything, it would just grab it. I'm like that is probably going to be within our lifetimes. >> Totally. It's I mean within like a decade. The thing that's happens is like none of this stuff sounds crazy anymore. That's the problem. It's like oh yeah, of course it's going to happen. Like these things are just like oh yeah, driving yeah, that'll be outlawed in some future where it's like it's too crazy that you still drive yourself. >> So, I picked you up and I went from my garage, I didn't touch a steering wheel, I didn't pay attention, I don't care which way it took me. I got to your house, I sat there, you got in my car, did I touch the steering wheel once? No. No. So, I I hit self-drive, I didn't touch the steering wheel, it pulled out, and it pulled into the parking lot, and we got out. That already exists. 100% fully autonomous. Well, let's say in the kid thing and we can go to this crazy future thing. What are you thinking when he's on top of you? Like what goes through your head? >> It is just like a biological feeling of like this is correct. It feels really nice. I'm not I'm not like oh my god or anything. I'm just like oh, this is this is cute. Yeah. And I hear from everyone else they're like oh, this part is like it's going to go by so quick. So, I'm trying to soak it up. Mhm. Yeah. So, I'm taking lots of pictures, documenting lots of things. So, what do you feel when you do that? I remember in the beginning it was like 4:00 a.m. and we had like a red light in her room. Mhm. And I remember she's on my chest just being surprised. I didn't feel this like I finally have my purpose in life and like I'm you know, but I just was like shocked at how much it was sweet. And how like beautiful the moment or like, you know, you're you're delirious and you don't know what's really happening. Uh and I just remember how beautiful it felt. It was really Do you think like so, we both had kids after the age of 40. Mhm. And then like biologically we should be dead. Like that like it's old, right? Um it doesn't seem old now, but like biologically You're like dead at 30 or something. >> old, yeah. So, I do think that in the modern age I liked having kids older and I probably regret it later like as we get older and like let's say technology doesn't catch up that much and we still die at 80, then I'd be like oh, I should have done this earlier. But it felt really good to be like I feel like in my 20s I would have been like man, this is going to hold me back. I feel like I would have felt like that. Do you think so? I feel like I would be like oh, I want to go to a a bar or a club at night. That's gone. I mean, I I think we could do that, but it's also what The point of having a family is to have a family, right? And But we were like ready for it. Uh I don't know if I was ready for it. I think the way I I look at it is that a lot of the things I want to do now is a sacrifice of family time. Mhm. And I feel grateful that I spent all this time early on, not necessarily just like going places, but like really getting my kind of maybe mental space better or my head better, and then getting money. Cuz like I don't know how people with families like the sacrifice you have to make to make a business work if you have a family. >> Mhm. Right? Like I I I don't think I was I I don't I would I was not there until mid-30s to be available to like find actually a good woman and then have a house to attract a good woman as well and so forth and then be financially more settled to be able to to prepare for that. Cuz like to try to do like let's take AppSumo now with a kid and a wife and maybe you didn't have somebody to help have help like and get up in these mornings I I that would be insane. That is kind of wild. You hear stories of people like so young doing it and you're like, "Damn, how do you do this?" >> think about it. If you're in your Let's say you're 23, right? And you have a kid, and then your wife has to work or maybe they put them in daycare. That that costs a thousand a month, right? And so what kind of job is your wife having and you're trying to start a business and you're maybe not making a lot of money. Like that's a that can be an insanely stressful time. I'm already like we're doing relatively okay and I'm stressed at times. Imagine like having nothing and having to build that up. So, I think that was the part feeling more financially settled. Not necessarily like have I dated enough or have I traveled enough. Um I'm sure that that's a part of it, but I think the finances made it a lot easier at this point. >> I mean, I think having a lot of money makes everything easier. >> >> What what doesn't it? What doesn't it? Your self-worth and how your self-confidence is. >> helps that a lot, too. >> >> I think I think the popular narrative You know like you know how every movie every movie is in Hollywood is kind of just like oh there's like this downtrodden group and they overcome. Like that's like the good story, right? But the reality is not always like that and I think the reality is just like being rich is better in every sense of the word. What's Okay, what's a bad what If you get robbed. If you get like >> you get get robbed of a million dollars but you have a hundred? Yeah, okay. I get oh you're more you're more of a target I guess if you you're very very wealthy. So a lot of really really wealthy people don't really brag about it. They're not posting pictures on jets. They're trying to be like off the radar. I guess that's the downside. >> quiet wealth. I was thinking I know I'm going to go to my neighborhood who's worth I don't know probably nine figures. So I mean he he would he just walks by in like you know Under Armour clothes. You have no idea. Yeah. I I think one problem one downside of being wealthy is not feeling like you have enough. Like we have a friend I won't even say it but like I I'm like dude he needs he could chill not even that he should chill out. He should just chill out his his anxiety about having more to prove to no one. Uh-huh. I think that's definitely a downside where these people are like I need more and I need to prove and it's like you don't actually. >> There are those people but I think there's also a lot of people that have a lot of money that just like don't you never hear about them. Uh tons. >> The majority of rich people I know you have no idea who they are. They have no intention of being out there. They're just and and and they're also not that they're not that flashy in general but they will take an occasional jet or occasional do like you know buy a nice house or whatever but you won't like know about it. I think that's most wealth. Yeah, I still think of downsides where it's I don't know. I I I would also say one thing I've noticed with people like I took the last year off to be with my daughter and this other guy in my neighborhood he just sold his company and tons of money. Um It you kind of miss having something to do. Having something to wake up for and have something to be excited about. That you kind of take for granted because you're like oh you could do whatever you want all day. But see that's a it's a better problem to have than being like day-to-day bills. Yeah and having to show up at an Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Cuz a lot of people Is it better to be rich I guess is what the It is it is better. Yeah, people say like oh you know I can't find something. I'm just like yeah, but like you you wouldn't but no one's giving away all the money to go back down the rung. No one's giving it away. That's how you know that it's good. Like yes yes there still are That's problems still exist, but they're like like like a champagne problems for lack of a better word. Like they're they're problems that are like they're not so bad to have. You're not you're not dying. You're not being able to like you're not getting kicked out of your apartment cuz you can't pay rent. That's a really bad problem. Being like, I don't really know what to do today but having a lot of money. That's a slightly better problem I'd say. >> Do you truly think that everyone has a chance of of making money? Uh yes, but there's going to be a massive variance. Like Elon Musk is going to be able to make a lot more money than most of humanity or all. And there's some people that are going to be at the bottom that is just like, you know, McDonald's job is about all you can do. Um I think that. You? I don't know. I was thinking about where >> >> where was I? I was at the Kerbey Lane Cafe. There was like really nice people working there. You ever been to Kerbey You've been to Kerbey Lane? >> Yeah, of course. I went to UT. I went there all the time. Yeah. >> pancakes, yeah. And you know, in Austin these days it's like it's not affordable. I think a lot of places aren't. So I I kind of wondered you know, what it would take for these people if they wanted to like own the Kerbey Lane or if that's even their ambitions. Maybe that's not also what they want. Mhm. I guess the the thing I was thinking about is I think everyone has a a chance to do it, but I think people give up their It's not responsibility, but they give up their belief that they could do it is what I've seen. >> I feel like a lot of people don't even know sometimes. Like it's possible? >> One formative thing I always had was like when you go to India and you go to like some like small village area and like to to my United States brain, I was kind of like this is like really poverty like crazy third world stuff. Everyone's happy. Everyone's fine. They just grew up like that. Uh you know, they're all around family. There's a a lot of family around and stuff like that. I would argue sometimes they're happier cuz they're around family and stuff a lot in the United States we tend to like secularize ourselves in our little homes. They're all secluded and you're just kind of like by yourself. Whereas, you know, you got your brother running around or some dogs and wild happening all the time. I don't know. They're about as happy if not happier. So, I always thought about it. It's just like it's just kind of your frame of reference. Like if all of your friends, you know, make 60k and you make 70, you're probably like, "Hey, I'm doing pretty good in life." You feel good about yourself. Now, if you hang out with a bunch of billionaires and you're just like, "Oh, that guy has 10 billion. I have one." You still think like I'm poor. Like you you feel like I don't have enough. So, I don't know. I think it's maybe a relative thing. And maybe some people really don't want like all that much crazy stuff. They just want like a little small tiny fishing boat and small house and drink some beer every night. And it's like, what's the problem with that? No, there's not. That's a good lifestyle. The two things I was reflecting on is like we had a the nanny in Mexico came and I saw I love seeing what's on people's phones. It's like such a fetish of mine. >> >> Like if I could look at people's screens and phones and like airplanes or cafes. >> you kind of like you like see through the seat and they're looking at Instagram and you're like, "Oh, I'm getting the raw stuff." >> "Show me yeah. Just show me that dirty dirty." I love it. But my this nanny had ChatGPT on her phone. You know, making 16 an hour and I'm sure she has to share that with the agency. So, she's maybe getting five. And I guess what I've been trying to think through talking about everyone having a chance it's like everyone kind of now especially more than ever has a a genius level ability. Mhm. Like for her to ask questions and get insights and and learn things to be able to, you know, kind of live however you want. You know what I think is have you heard of Elon Musk talk about universal abundance and Peter Diamandis as well? I've heard him say I don't know So, this term is universal abundance has been around for a while. Like they say like everyone like you know, every Miss America pageant, "I want to end world poverty." It's like, "Okay. Well, brass tax, what do you actually do?" So, it turns out I thought about this a lot more and more. I was just like, you know, this sounded stupid 5 years ago. The more I think about it and the more I've seen this happen, I think they're kind of onto something. And what it means is like right now it takes a lot of money to like do certain things. But then let let's say Tesla 5 years down the road, 10 years down the road, Tesla Optimus driving not even a question anymore. This is solved, done. Like anyone can drive anywhere for like two bucks, right? Safely, don't die. Uh Tesla Optimus is doing all the jobs that like a manual person would do. You want to build a house? There's probably like one contractor out there and a bunch of Optimuses, right? So, like the cost of building that house will be lower. So, for you to live a really nice life will just get cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. Right now, I go to the doctor, but usually I just look up stuff on ChatGPT. Pretty much tells me everything. As as the AI gets better, it's like, Does the doctor really need to be here? All he does is has two eyes and his finger to like poke me. Um and then like the camera can just like take a picture. Oh, what's that rash? It tells me how to get rid of it. Like, where's the doctor in that, right? So, like the whole industry of like, I know something you don't know and you have to pay me for it, lawyers, etc. Okay, what if that all goes away? So, then we have endless being able to do anything. So, it's like the cost like you'll still maybe need money, but it'll just like go down and down and down to have a good life. Let's say you own your home in a place to have like a good life and maintain that home and have a good life environment for your family, I imagine the cost would go down and down and down. Now, we have a way of like exceeding our expectations of what we want then, right? So, there could be that. Like in the 1920s, a home was 700 square feet, two bedrooms, one bathroom, and now your house has five bathrooms and a pool and a sauna and then a cold plunge and then you need a hyperbaric chamber and then whatever the hell else we'll do in the Oh, red light. You don't have a red light in your sauna? You got to have that. So, it's like we keep exceeding those things. But it sounds like it's possible in the near future it could be like cost like 50 bucks a month to have like a good life, potentially. That sounds great. >> that's like a probability? Um I guess I was trying to think did you do you say your kids name publicly or Uh I haven't said it yet so I won't. >> Okay. I guess I was trying to think the the thing we were talking about before with like the rich stuff is like who do you think is the most content person you know? And then we'll talk about the kid thing. I guess I was just curious for that. Content? Yeah, like who do you think is like I always think of I've thought of you as like one of the people that just like you don't make the most, you don't make the least, but you always seem real happy with like how life is. >> Mhm. Like you're not like I need more in life or I'm not like >> Well, I always think I need more, but I think that only 30% of my brain is thinking about it or 70% it's not 100. Yeah. Huh, and so 30% wants more and 70% is like oh this is cool. >> 30% I think it's a I think a good ratio is 30/70 of like you should always want more than whatever you have. I think that's just healthy for your like psyche to like because that's how you you progress and you operate as a human you need that. Um but also you should take a take a second to be like think about life. You know, I got a kid, we're out here, me and you were just hanging out, we drove here in an autonomous car, like it's camera, like it's pretty cool. >> Yeah. >> Right? So like I I try not to forget that. So I wouldn't say like I'm like always content, but at the same time it's just like this is pretty nice. And who do you think of when you think of that? You're probably not a content one. You're like an active you need like a thing. >> I need suffering. >> >> I think I told you one time I was just like if you sold if you sold AppSumo for like and had nothing to do I'd be worried for you I think I thought. >> Yeah. >> like you need a thing. Yeah. I I I I I I I I >> You're not like a like a I don't think you could just like chill. No, I I think it's also just like I don't know if it's genetics or how your upbringing is or just you know how you and Could be Jewish stuff too. Could be Jewish stuff. I mean because you've always you you were like you would get really hardcore into things and like I think this is also what made you successful by the way. Yeah. >> You would get really obsessed with things. Um with like pinball. Remember you were like in a pinball phase where you were like I should get a pinball coach which I was like I didn't know that was a thing. A pinball coach. >> getting coaches. That's my thing. >> You you I think you were into pickleball or something at one point. >> Pickleball, uh squash, more squash. >> Squash, uh you were into flying for like a minute. Well, yeah, then I had emergency landing, so that's why I kind of stopped doing the flying. >> You you uh you were into Hebrew. I think now you're doing Spanish. You got really into like learning about Judaism at one point. Like you always have like a thing that you want to get good at. Yeah. It's like this long sequence of things. And I don't think you've ever not had that. Yeah, just interested, curious. But I guess I was just thinking about the content part. I think as I'm getting older But are are you content? Like when you do those, are you just like, I got to do something? No, I you know, I think I'm just curious. Okay. Like I think the flying I flew with Joe Kelly. We flew down to like San Carlos, random Mexico. And I wasn't really doing much, and I was like, "This is pretty cool to like be able to like literally go to an airport, get in something, and you can go literally anywhere Mhm. if there's an emergency, which I thought was nice, or if you just want to be able Mhm. >> for freedom. I wasn't, you know, like John Arrow, some of our friends were like, "I just love being in the air." >> it. Yeah. I I that was never me. And then I thought it was just like a challenge of sorts. Mhm. And I think I you know, I think part of it is I like accomplishing that, and then you can make the decision to whether you want to I wanted to continue it or not. Like, you know, with the flying, I after the emergency landings twice, I was like, "Okay, the upside of is like, I could just fly commercial or pay for private jet or whatever. Downside is death." Yeah. Right? And it's not uh the trade-off didn't seem really worth it at that point. I think now you're into biking. I think that's like your obsession. But I've been the biking one has been I don't know, 10 years now. Really? Were you that that into it that long ago? I mean, since Anton lived here. I think with biking, the difference lately, I think with the biking thing, we're talking about contentness, but I think the biking thing, I'm just aiming for consistency. I just aim for three times a week. Just like either in my Peloton at home or out Today we I was late cuz I was biking. And so it's just for me that it's more of just like getting my energy out, having a space to think. Sometimes it's going to a cool cafe or seeing a cool part of the country, but it's like I just want to stay three times a week with that. But you I mean you've always been like a like you'll go hard on something and then kind of stop. Yeah. And like in a way, it's kind of good you know how like people who hop jobs like technically make more money? Yes. In the long run it's like one of those things where it's like you know if you stay, you ride it out, but like you are good at like going hard on something, but if it's not going to like compound your for you, you just kind of like you're just like all right, I did it now I'm done. I think like oh, like your book launch, you were really into writing a book for a little while, doing the book launch, now you're like I don't think you've ever mentioned the book. I guess you mentioned the book, but it's just like you're kind of like I'm done with the book. Yeah. Yeah, I mean Or YouTube YouTube is a good example. You got to you wanted to get to a million subs and you spent a year or two doing it. You got to a million subs and you pretty much just stopped. I think Yeah, I don't have a good answer for for all these things. I don't know if there needs to be an answer. I think the the counter that I think about is like what are things that compound? What are things that are really exciting not just it's not about exciting, but what things that like as they develop over time they get better and better which is like take my wife. My wife is a great example of that where, you know, we had our first date. She was she was attractive, but it wasn't a great first date and then we like Instagram flirted a bit and then 30 days later saw her again. Fast forward a year and now it's we're almost we're almost on year four. Which is kind of crazy to think. Uh in August it'll be year four of meeting and it's just like more and more I just appreciate her. More and more it's getting deeper, more and more I'm just like wow, this is um she's such a special person. Whereas take the YouTube thing, um I think a lot of the content I was making or I just I didn't wake up wanting to make that content. Right? I didn't There's some people you know, you interview some of these billionaires and it's like I found something, I worked hard on it and now I'm old. But I'm not going to That's that for most of it and that's what people want to watch. >> That's what your experience was like with the interviewing like some of the the mega-rich people or >> Yeah, I mean I think there's a few that I didn't care to interview, but it I knew it was going to be popular. I think there was that me on the street stuff where it's um doing stupid challenges to some extent to show it about business about like how how are people rich and then I I do think there's like a very few percent like maybe one out of every five to 10 that I truly just enjoyed like the Kinko's founder like Paul Orfalea like it was an honor to be able to go to his house and just get a few hours to chat with him. Mhm. And so that I would want to do more and more of, but what happened was like when the book launch finally came out when the when Million Dollar Weekend cuz you want me to mention it, I guess came out and you know it did well and people like the book and I was proud of the book. I think two things happened where one when I put out material about the book on YouTube like no one watched it. Mhm. I was like, "Oh, wow. Like they just want to be entertained here." Mhm. And I I'm not here for that. Right? I'm not here to to just do that. Like I This is what I'm working on. This is something I'm interested in, but they're just kind of looking for television television. Yeah. Um and then I think the second part around the content Yeah, I I I didn't I don't know. I I I guess I didn't feel for like showing up to to making that content and being public. Like it didn't feel like I needed an external validation Mhm. of creating content. I didn't need to have views or compete with other people's channels to then think of myself as is successful or worthy of doing it. I And And also it's okay for people to start and stop things like Seinfeld, one of your favorite people, it's like did coffee and cars a few seasons and he stopped. >> Mhm. Did his episodes of his show, but for some reason when people do that they're like, "Oh, why'd you stop it?" It's like >> Mhm. cuz I wanted to or I don't feel for doing it. Mhm. And so yeah, I don't I miss sometimes making content and I think eventually I'll go back to like I want to interview the founder of Buc-ee's. Mhm. I just think that would be like a fun interview, but I think a lot of these people I started interviewing either didn't care for, didn't want to do it, or a lot of the things are the same. And what I realized is like I want to be the person being interviewed. Mhm. I don't want to be interviewing other people necessarily. I I am curious and I like asking questions, but I wanted to be creating. And I yes, you can be creating content, but I wanted to be creating businesses or material or things that like others wanted to talk about. Mhm. And I think that's where you know, I took I've been taking a break with work and then coming back more recently and just kind of focusing on that. Yeah. I I feel you've done this several times, too, where you like kind of take a break, have like a CEO run it or something like that, and then like come back, fire everyone, reset the company, stuff like that. >> have things to talk about. >> >> Yeah, you're you're very much like that. Would you have kept the YouTube thing going if like, let's say, it was driving like a ton of new revenue for AppSumo? Cuz I don't I don't think you were able to like track if it was making money directly, right? It definitely helped. >> I think it significantly helped like our direct search and organic any I you know, a lot of people it's very beneficial to have an audience, right? Where you can have an email list or social media where you can talk to people and be like, "Hey, check this thing out." I think one underlying thing that I I realized in just thinking about this this question was I was definitely inspired by the team. So, I started by myself uh this recent time of doing YouTube maybe 4 years ago. And then over 4 years, it wasn't at once, but over years like hiring different people, firing people, meeting different people. Like we ended up with this really I think special team. Um with Jeremy Marie who now runs his own like thumbnail company and uh Cam who's doing the editing and uh Isaac are doing the filming. He's done with uh Joe Rogan. He filmed Joe Rogan Yeah, Isaac. He filmed Joe Rogan and uh is that Elon Musk or something like that recently? Yeah, like him and then uh I think Luca or I forget his name. Lu- uh doing thumbnails. It was just like it was the the team This is This is the thing I didn't realize, but like Jeremy I think Cam quit first and then Jeremy was like kind of in and out and then I I I think that actually motivated me to stay with it was those people. >> Mhm. Interesting. >> Right. It was I mean there's a lot of things, right? Like getting, you know, views is nice and feeling like you're successful in that, but like having people around you where you feel like you're working on something together and excited to do it together and and argue with each other was I think when they started leaving and I I built a new team. The new team was it was fine. I'm sure we would have done just as well, but I I think that kind of deflated me a little bit. You did you talk you put out like a three-part series about like AppSumo like coming back. So you you pretty much stopped podcasting for a while and you'll randomly drop like an episode. I can see you like at 3:00 in the morning be like I'm up. I'll do an episode. That's what it sounds like sometimes. Um it's more so that you know, every year I do my goals and I've put them out publicly for years now. Um and in 25 I didn't want to completely stop all content. >> Mhm. Cuz I you know, I I I was hanging out with this guy today on the bike. He's like, "I want to be a content creator." I'm like, "Why?" He's like, "I want optionality." I'm like, "For what?" He's like, "Because if I ever have something I want to tell people about it." I'm like, "Well, what do you want to tell them about?" He's like, "I don't know yet." >> >> And I was like, "Well, you know, for me I've I've liked being public. I've liked validation. I've liked uh meeting people, right? Like that puts you in places to meet people. And I've enjoyed putting my thoughts out there since 2000, which is now like I really thought I'm like, "Wow, that's 26 years of putting my stuff out like online." And so in 25 my goal was to put out one podcast or email a month. And actually our friend Sam inspired me where I was doing a weekly email and I hired this guy and it was 10,000 a month to do email and I was like, "Why am I doing this every week? For to I don't have anything I would necessarily want to sell. I don't need more attention necessarily. Yes, I can sell more books. Sure, for what? Like if I sell 150,000 versus a million, does it do I feel better about my life? It's like, no, I'm I'm proud of what I've done. And so I I just said, all right, I'm just going to do an a podcast a month. Mhm. So every month last year I put out a podcast and my goal this year now is is one kind of long-form thoughtful tweet or you know, most most likely a tweet uh a week without any consideration to views or how many likes or retweets it gets. Mhm. So yeah, I did a podcast a month uh every every month last year. Sometimes it's literally the last day, but the last few podcasts I think one since I came back to work in September I've just been kind of a bit more raw about how things have been going at AppSumo. Mhm. And so it was I don't know I'd say it was at 3:00 a.m. It's basically like I was pretty I'm pretty busy with work. So it's like when I have a 30-minute block I was like, I don't really have much of an outline. Here's a few thoughts I have. Let me just put it out there. You know, I uh a lot of times I'm not in a place where I can re uh listen. So either like my son's sleeping on me or something like >> >> I just don't want to have like audio on or whatever. And so I read the transcripts of my podcast. Have you read your transcripts? Not mine, but I read a lot podcast Not a lot of them. I was I was reading I was listening to your listening to your last podcast, but I wasn't actually listening. I just I just read the whole thing. And it's like quite long, you know, when you say it out. I was like, is Noah ADHD? >> >> Have you The last one you talked about the standards one? I think the last one, part three. >> Part Horizon AppSumo I I thought my naming was pretty good. AppSumo at war, AppSumo Horizon. >> the latest one you put it out like a couple days ago. The one recently was definitely ADHD. Uh it's called standards. And it was basically just like after I had lunch with this like guy who's done well. It was just a kind of a bunch of random garbled topics. It wasn't well organized. >> It's funny just reading it to see like the tangents and everything like that. >> doing too many of them. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's funny. >> I think it I I don't have an expectation of like packaging it together and and making it super polished. It's more >> Noah has one of the top podcasts in the world and almost every other one of his is like just him ranting for like an hour. And he's like insane. Not not insane in a bad way. I mean, like his brain is just so weird. Um He just rants and people are just like, yeah, that's raw. That's that's cool. Yeah, I mean, I had a better response to these shows than some of my older shows where I like packaged them up or had a producer or had someone like interview and and really put it together. I In general >> just getting kind of like it's a similar It's exhausting. >> It's it's it's everywhere and then it's also like all positive. This guy makes 20 grand a month and you're just like, you know, I don't I'm I'm worried for AppSumo for the first time and you I'm just like, what what what? >> Yeah, I mean, and the thing that was a little hard, too, is like I would say things and then at work the next day people like that hear the show were like, "Yo, am I getting fired?" >> Oh, And so I was like, yes. >> >> Bye, I I still I yeah. But and then um I think it's also it's not my main business. It's not like I'm trying to do this. It's like I enjoy it. And so I don't necessarily want to create it to be work. Mhm. Um but I was enjoying just kind of like having some some outlet that I consistently do it. And so now like the thoughtful one for this year it it's been interesting just having that as kind of like a thing I'm want to do. I'm thinking more. Mhm. I'm like, each week I'm like, "Oh, I used the toilet." Like, maybe there's something about toilets that could be a thought. And then I, you know, I'll I'll I'll transcribe it. So I'll do a voice memo, transcribe it to text, and then have AI review it, and then I'll edit that text. Isn't this just old school blogging? Remember this is what blogs used to be, right? So you had this idea and you're like, "Oh, yeah, I'll write this thing." Yeah, I think it's lost a bit, right? Like now there's like it's mostly images or AI videos or or graphs and I think there's an I think there's appreciation for like rawness. Mhm. That's lost. Like I I don't know about you. I literally have been um on a diet of like no business content. Almost zero no business like I I got >> Across what plat What are you talking like YouTube or Instagram or >> podcast podcast stuff, book business stuff, even Twitter like I've tried to mute or I block the words M.R.R. Like they're it's blocked. Um I just find it exhausting and uninspiring. Maybe it's at this I'm at a point where I'm just topped up enough with business stuff. And so I'm more interested in like in fiction things or just anything not business. So it's even the content I'm creating probably as I'm older too and I've experienced different things is like more about family, it's more going to be around like this one concept I'm working on I'm going to put out this week is around like um cringe like how we're afraid right like I don't want to put out my own stuff cuz it's too cringey um and we're embarrassed about it. But yeah, I guess I'm just exhausted or tired. I don't want to hear another thing about how you do marketing or how you do this AI automation to make a trillion dollars. I just don't care. Do you when you see people that and do you always think like is this AI? Do you think that when you see like a post or anything? um I I think about it in the videos my wife sends me cuz she sends me these Instagram videos of like husbands doing things. I'm like you know all the stuff the husbands are doing is AI. Even if it's not I I tell her that. >> >> I'm like those husbands aren't real. Yeah, come on. um I think it's AI when it's like super organized like with on I use Reddit a good amount and it's like Reddit with bullet points and numbers. The thing that that AI can't do is tell real stories. Right it can't it can make up a story but it can't tell a real story and so that's what I I tend to I think I'm gravitating towards like just telling stories or figuring out my stories or listening to stories. um But I don't know if I'm like skeptical of it. I don't know is it something you're thinking about? No. I I mean I mean well kind of because sometimes sometimes people will post long things and with a really long and organized exactly just kind of like and then the em dashes are kind of like a giveaway sometimes just like chat GPT or they use they use chat GPT like dictate something and then create a post out of it and I'm just like is this longer than it needs to be sometimes. Yeah. So a lot of content I'm kind of like is this a real thing or I read a lot like I'm reading a long post and not getting much out of it. Yeah. Whereas like a lot of like really smart people on Twitter will just like they'll write one sentence you get a lot. And I'm like you see that's dense information. I like that. Yeah. It's like non-dense information, kind of like LinkedIn slop. Um which I'm not against, but at the same time it's also like, I don't know. I wish I knew how much of it was written with AI. That's all. I would I wish I kind of knew. And I think in 5 years I don't think we're going to care anymore. I mean it'll all be AI. It'll all be AI assisted. That'd be like That'd be like in the year 2000 being like, did this person write it by pencil or on a keyboard? >> >> Right? Did they write it digitally versus Cuz it used to be a real thing like typewriter, it's like different. And now we're like, who cares? Like it What difference does it make? You wrote it. But I I think it it discourages us as much from I don't know, from consuming it. Or I wonder if like AI writes it and then our AI consumes it and then our AI can like outputs like a version that >> It kind of sounds like that. that we care to like that knows how we like to to consume our content. Yeah. I mean I I can't imagine at the rate it's going, it sounds like within 5 years most of the content will be at least touched by AI in some way. Yeah, I mean do you call spell checking AI? >> >> Yeah, it's a good point. Cuz like in some cases it keeps moving up, yeah. Yeah, like some of them in the past like I think your pen and pencil thing was good. Like you don't necessarily care how it's created. You care like if it's useful or or interesting to you to yourself. I've been on a few podcasts where they're talking about copywriting, how it's been impacted. I'm just like, well, I mean 80% of it's dead, right? Because a copywriter, let's say 10 years ago, would write a blog post to get on SEO or write a cold email or a company like, what do we write on our emails? Now ChatGPT or any sort of thing does it for you a lot. So it keeps ticking off all those things. And so like, is copywriting dead? I'm like, at the super high level, no. At the low level, absolutely yes, 100%. At the mid level, mostly. What This is what I was going to ask when we See, look, even though I'm on tangents, I bring it back. Um what world is is your our kids going to live in, you know, like in in 18 years? Cuz I think about the jobs, like, you know, there's these 529 investment plans in America where you put in money in which it's it's kind of not as good as it sounds because uh they cap uh like you have to use it for education. And if you don't use it, you can you can't you can only take out a little bit for retirement. Mhm. So, it has to be it's kind of strange. Hm. But then I you wonder like what kind of world are they going to be living in in like 18 or 20? And I don't know I don't know if I'm getting old or I'm like, man, I lived in the good days. I don't have to worry about that. Yeah, but I I I think you're I think one you're half right like what are they going to do? So, it's kind of hard to imagine the future. And I think most people get it a little bit directionally correct, but like sort of wrong. The other thing is think about our parents. Just like you're Okay, your parents when they grew up grew up in a totally analog world, right? And so when we were being raised and computers were there, uh like do you remember like you know on on the news they'd be like, oh, the world people are surfing the World Wide Web, and they show some dork ass in his like literally like a basement with like a modem suction cupped to a thing. And and you'd be like, ah, look at this nerd. And that's literally the whole world now. You can't pay the parking meter without a phone without a supercomputer in your pocket. So, it's like that completely took over beyond what we ever thought. My dad went to uh Berkeley uh in the '70s and did engineering. And I asked him like cuz he used to love like his iPad. And um I was like, could you even like imagine something like this back then? He's just like, you can't even like think that that machine that you're like literally putting punch cards in would turn into something like this that's just like lightweight, portable, wireless. Like all these technologies didn't even exist back then. So, like to put them all together in one device was like really crazy to think about. >> Yeah. Like in Star Trek, their like big thing in the future was like they could like talk to each other on the wrist. And that's like this is like children's toys now. Isn't that crazy? Like we The whole phone face chat thing totally taken for granted. Totally. Yeah. And so And so I think like you can't imagine how much technology will impact. So, we think right now like we're thinking with our current like 2026 brains of like, oh, our kids won't drive. That's going to be so beyond like what they even think about like don't drive like what what what I don't know. Like what what do you mean? Like, this Of course no one drives. What do you mean? That's really dangerous. And so, I think it's going to be so far beyond what we can comprehend. And then like the AI stuff is going to accelerate so much to where it's like, I'm not exactly sure how we could properly predict a lot of things. Is there a worst-case scenario? I'm just trying to think where I take my family, we do like Swiss Family Robinson. We go to like an island and we're just like we just live on an island eating coconut. I don't know, go fishing, just have more of a simple life. Uh I think I mean there's two ways to look at it. You look at like the the bad case, you look at the medium case, what it probably will be, and then you look at the good case. And like all these technologies, like people were afraid of at one point. So, all AI. Now, I can't imagine using not using ChatGPT like 20 times a day now. I could I could It would be very difficult for me to go back. So, I don't know. I feel like you people just get used to these things and then accept it. Like now ChatGPT can just write stuff and create images. Everyone's like, yeah, normal. But remember what I like blew our minds 4 years ago. So, I think we'll just get used to it and it'll be like a a world in which I I don't know what kind of jobs they would have, if any. I'm trying to think what jobs cuz like doctors gone, drivers gone. >> But but let me say this, would the concept of a job still be around? Yeah, what's the new thing called? Podcasters? I mean like this wasn't a job a long time ago. I mean radio was, but then they took it and made it for the masses. Like a lot of things become democratized. Yeah, so so maybe so maybe what I think a I think I wrote an essay AI lets you do like like takes a number off the team size. So, what 10 people used to be able to do, one person can do. And then like in a few more years, what 100 people used to be able to do, one person can do. So, Joe Rogan and Jamie, two guys, broadcast to you 100 million people. For that to be possible back in the day, you need to be ABC, have lots of capitalization, and 50,000 employees, right? Um it just it just wasn't possible for one person to do that all themselves. And now anyone with a with a phone can technically do that. So, I think it just like add zeros onto what you can do. So, what do we do now that has a lot of people? Let's say like a bank. JP Morgan built a new building in New York and 20,000 people going to work there, whatever. Can one person with like Claude code version 17 do all the that bank can? All all all the all the routing codes, all the little products, let's build it all out. Um could could one person just do that? And like surely in a few years, yes. I was just imagining someone building a house by themselves now, right? Like But that would that would be that would be like something like robotics, which is like slower to take off because it's physical, but like will probably happen. Well, I try to also think one of the things I've been trying to think about lately is like what's not going to change with technology, right? Is there anything that uh hasn't been solved or hasn't been solved well or just won't be solved, right? Like so as of now our our us animals eat. Ooh. Right? Like we're still eating. Like you're still eating tacos or you're eating whatever the hell. Like I'm eating Twizzlers, which I shout out to Twizzlers and get sponsored. We're sponsored by Twizzlers today. >> >> Um like some of these categories that just like probably won't be impacted, right? Like maybe the innovation can be impacted or the packaging or the marketing some of these things, but like we're still eating and pooping, you know, like that. Maybe everyone gets a a nice toilet. I don't know I don't know if it's that. And then are there other categories like home building? Like people will still I don't know if it'll be like Ready Player One zero. Where they live in boxes and you but I and you imagine a VR world? Mhm. But as of now like most of us still want to have somewhere to sleep that's warm at night. Yeah. And so I I don't know. I guess I'm trying to think where, you know, my I have two daughters, like where, you know, and maybe maybe the point instead of how the world actually ends up, it's like, okay, just teach them how to be good people, right? Like how to be humble, how to be curious, how to be kind, and you know, as long as they have those those elements then if they go to whatever school is at that time or education or professional or if there's not any professions like, you know, at least they'll be they'll be prepared for that. Like Eagle Eagle Scouts. Yeah. Uh critical thinking. Man, the good answers are always so boring. I teach them how to be good people. I wish we I had answers for this. But but could you like you were born in 1981 too? I don't say the birthday. Somewhere in the '80s. Okay. Um so in one of the one of those years. So you were around for like the '90s or 2000s. Could you have predicted how the world is right now? I think the question is what stuff would I have not predicted? And if I would have predicted I would have called it better. Like Amazon, right? Like that came out. I would have bought a lot more Google stock. I would have bought a lot more Amazon. I would have bought a lot more Google. I bought Tesla at like 14. Oh. But I only I only bought $3,000 worth. Oh. But um I didn't think it would have been this big. I think that some of it's also like the the people who are leading it, how big their visions are. Mhm. Right? Like Bezos and Musk and these some of these guys that have, you know, one word names. Like they just have bigger dreams. Or they have the and they're willing to make the sacrifices as well, which I don't think people understand. Um I mean some of this stuff See Yeah, I mean like Facebook I I knew that was going to be this big. I think that autonomous driving I would have never bet on. I mean that that was like Do you remember the movie that was called Do you remember a Stallone movie it was called Judgment Day, I think? Where they had the driving like that? I would have never thought it'd be like that. >> Yeah, I think there's there's probably a lot more that I didn't expect and a lot that I did. You know, I mean the though the web's impact probably not as much. Right? Like how much the web was going to change the >> It's just like proli- It's used to like log on and now it's just it's always on. There's there's no like off button for the >> it used to be that ethernet cable stuff. Yeah. That people had no no respect for anymore now. >> >> I think because like like you we're dealing with like computers that sat in a place that weren't portable. And you had to plug them in, right? So then like you You laptops that are really skinny. Like the iPad Air came out, and that was like the craziest laptop ever. And then the iPhone was obviously like a turning point where I don't think most people saw that coming. Of how impact >> No, how they did When they did the iPod to the iPhone, it was just such a That was a very transformative moment in history. Cuz that enabled so many more things than people thought. That's I think that's where it took off to a level where it's like we knew the internet was going to be big, but we didn't think it'd be that big because the internet was still like a box that you used. I don't think ChatGPT and this AI stuff is as big as that. I think it's definitely helpful. It's insanely helpful, right? It's like Google on crack, right? It's like Google plus plus. But I think Google gave us like the answer, we just had to do a lot more work to like find some of these answers. What do you think is the next like next hardware change or something? Like I I have a feeling if Okay, if I had a pair of glasses that was always connected to the internet, live translated whatever, you know, went into my ear, um looked like a normal pair of glasses, and would over like if I went I'm walking somewhere, it just tells me like, "Oh, the Starbucks is over there." And it just shows me naturally. And maybe there's some sort of like thinking interface where it knows like you're looking over there. It just naturally did that, like an Apple style implementation of that. That could be, I think, the next form factor, but I don't I don't know. I'm not sure. What Or would AI just invent it and be so much better than whatever we think? >> It could be AI can invent it and then 3D print it and then have it come out. I was thinking I bought the AirPods Pro 3s. >> Uh-huh. Supposed to be like live translation, uh better noise proofing. And I was like, I don't know if it's an age thing or I just maybe it's my standards, but it's like the AirPod Pro 2s are feel equivalently good. Yeah, it's a spec bump. Has a better microphone. I guess that's sort of, but it's just like it's a spec bump. And for 200 bucks, I was like, "Okay, maybe it's a little better." But like iPhone 17, fine. I I did it. It's a little better than the 16. >> I will say though, have you ever seen someone with like an iPhone 10 and used it? It's like it's quite jarring. I haven't used it in a while. What's it like? >> pretty shitty. Like slow or >> Yeah, you pull up like a contacts list, and it like skips, and you're like, "Oh, phones skip?" Like you remember they used to like the iPhone they would be like glitchy and and like just like not it wasn't smooth. Um just like things like that. It's smaller, it's not as fast. Um I it didn't have like Face ID. So, you notice that even though things are spec bumps, given enough time it gets so much more powerful that it's like almost unrecognizable. I mean it it's still like you held it up you'd be like, "Oh, that's still a phone." I was trying to think like just help me be help my wife be happy with me, you know? Like that's all I want. >> >> Just give me goggles or ear Whatever it takes, shirts, clothing, nakedness, just like I want my wife to be like, "Yeah, you're the best." And I'm like, "All right." Have you been using Cloud Code or anything that you mentioned you were? Like have you built stuff with it? Um I was kind of It's funny cuz AppSumo promotes software and you know, we're pretty pretty on the cutting edge of what stuff gets promoted and what stuff's coming out. So, I only got into I mean Cloud Code I think had this like renaissance when this 4.5 like this Opus version, I guess. >> Yeah, it's all over the place. >> Yeah, I think that's when I I I'm trying to get back to like being a hobbyist of sorts. Like curious? >> Yeah, just being curious with these things and a hobbyist of like, "Let me see what I can put together." Like honestly, one of the more interesting things I I I stupidly not even stupidly, I've really been impressed with like Katherine. Um Katherine Yeah. She launched this thing called Helm. Mhm. And it's basically a little Have you seen it? Yeah. Yeah, it's a little circle thing and you use your phone to tap it and then when you tap it your phone turns off and you have to do work and then you tap back. And there's there's been a lot of these distraction-free software and and uh items. Mhm. I think I was just like, "Wow, how cool is it that one person can build an NFC device, have an app, an Android and iPhone and web and connect to your phone and have like that, you know, within maybe 6 months or less?" Right. Once again, knocking off 10 a zero off that that used to be 10 people. Now it's one. >> an interesting thing. And so, uh I I did I saw her and then like I've been curious about NFC. Like I want to turn my uh my refrigerator into a vending machine. So, when people take things from my fridge, they have to pay for it. This is a bad idea as a person who comes to your house a lot. Yeah, I mean, you should If you want a soda, it's like you get one for free. You can tap in one. Um Yeah, I've been playing around. I built like a web-based thing for AppSumo. I've used ChatGPT on like I don't know, a lot of different variations. Like a lot of just this I don't know, trying to see the limit of what things you can do with it. >> Mhm. Um that that's been pretty interesting. Like AppSumo or our products are so spectrumed, right? Like, how do you know what's going to sell well? So, is there a way we can pipe all this data in and be like, all right, here's the criteria of what sells well? Are people uh I I'd be curious. Are people just like vibe coding something, some shitty piece of software, and submitting it to the marketplace or or like to to run on AppSumo? >> Yeah, man. It's been such a You know, so I took the year off on sabbatical, and then honestly uh the world's changed more from a software creation standpoint than ever before. Like, I mean, in the last year alone. Yeah, so they're basically in our business, I'd say there's like pre- November 2023 Mhm. and post. Right? Like, be You know what? ChatGPT had a version that came out post-2023 with the API access that like dramatically and you know, with lovable and some of these other products, like dramatically lowered the bar to creating software, which is also amazing, right? Like, that people now can create and does don't need the dependency of a co-founder. Mhm. Or even just they can build something on the side. And so, we used to be able to promote things because it was so much harder to make it. Yeah. And the people who made it were also serious. >> Mhm. And And then today, you know, you can build a an invoicing app like this. You can build uh dashboard apps. You can just build so many more things. So, we're almost the I kind of see us more as like a underwriters. Mhm. So, AppSumo these days is more of a how do we You know, when you do a loan at a bank, you're like, well, okay. Do they have collateral? What's their house look like? What's their other bank accounts look like? And so, we're having to do that where it's like, where's the founder? How long have they worked on it? Do they have the Does the site have real testimonials or fake testimonials? Mhm. Does it look AI coded? Um How long like how can we see their change log? And then we we've built an an AI calculator where basically like we automatically figure out like their sustainability. Mhm. Because before it was like if you made software it didn't cost you anything so it was like yeah, throw it up on AppSumo and and you know, the good products will rise and bad ones will will go out. But now we have to be very strict. We're like if you're on our site, we need to make sure you can sustain. Like and it was just hard to do because like it costs money with an AI product. You have to pay tokens and blah blah blah. Yeah. Yeah, all these things to actually run these businesses where in the past the the variable cost of it was just such a good margin for the the software companies. And so also that that changes the dynamic where like a lot of companies can't do great insane deals because they just don't have margins. Yeah. So it's that that part with AI specifically is uh we've had to evolve and catch up. That's weird for like a nearly 10 years nothing really changed and then all of a sudden it did. That was an awesome run. >> >> That was an awesome I mean, we did you know, I I think what I've noticed is so I Claude I I used Claude code and made this URL thing to analyze deals. And then we and as well we launched uh we relaunched the site. I'm not going to call it out, but we relaunched a site on Wednesday and it was really fascinating to launch a site a new new thing and it was like how do we get customers? I was like oh, that's still hard to do even with AI. Like you can build easier than ever now, but now there's almost more things out there. How do you get found? Yeah, it's it's still a fundamental Yeah, it's still a fundamental problem. I It's kind of funny because I remember with ChatGPT when it first came out, people like oh wow, now you can write blog posts. And I saw that in like our like copywriting industry. It's like you could just make a lot of blog posts. So people are like oh, this is going to make you rich, but it's the funny thing it's like now no one really wants blog posts from you. So it's like it's like it actually kind of just eliminated that whole thing in in a way. Um so I think with like software it's like oh, now everyone can be a developer but it's just like yeah but now no one needs to buy your thing if they could just make it. Especially if it's a simple tool. You can like you can just one shot that pretty easy now. Yeah there's one shots which you know automatically created and then you know then you have to talk about maintenance and you have to talk about updates. I think the theory that we believe Chad feels very strongly my partner. He feels that all software will just be free. Like there's a world where there's just no software you're paying for in the next 5 years because it's just so easy to create and maintain. Mhm. And then the question is like well what are people going to be buying and it's like we don't know. >> >> I don't know. Start selling servers and energy. I think that's definitely an area that the area that we're taking So software is still here it's still maybe 5 10 I don't know how many years till it's completely free. Yeah. Um the area that we're making a kind of like a long bet on is is people. >> >> Like >> Like that's what team you mean? >> No no. No that sounds mean. No not not not that I'm not willing to bet on them. No just like what products still require people. So like you don't ever you've never done therapy. Um but let's say you do like a tarot card reading. Uh-huh. People love tarot card readings. I don't know if it's in the it's not in the trillions. >> >> But it's definitely in the hundreds of millions. Like this the tarot card psychology that that not psychology but tarot card psychic stuff. Mhm. Now do you want a chat GPT psychic or do you want that the woman who looks like she's a psychic? You want the woman who looks like a psychic. Okay. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah some some people would definitely want that. Yes. You just want the woman that looks like a psychic. Now that still I would say in 5 years will probably be around or 10 years will be around. And then okay well what are other industries like when you go to a trainer either you can have a robot trainer Mhm. or you can have an in per like a real you know jacked girl or guy. And so it's it's trying to understand that and you know we're we're kind of coining it it's not a good name yet but like digital service providers. So they're providers and then you can either do it digitally over Zoom or you could do it in person. Right now we're focusing on digital. And so we're taking our Tydy cow product and basically broadening it to be like a you know a service provider operating system. So besides scheduling is the easy part but what about like recurring bookings? What about making it your home page? What about making a CRM so you can actually interact with these people better? So what are what are people that what are a category of companies or providers that need tools don't want to spend a lot of money and will probably be around regardless of AI in the next few years. So that's that's how we're building. >> the if all software like turns into HubSpot? Like you start by solving one thing and then you add another and another and another because before it used to take a large team to maintain those things and then a large team to integrate each of those things and now if just like you use lovable and it's like just add this module on and whatever just does it. Every piece of software could just do a lot of Well I think that's Yeah I mean there's been a contraction and expansion of software right? We're like you could you know we built SumoMe which was pop-ups and then we kind of lost that business for numerous reasons. Because then you have a company like Klaviyo which like pop-ups as a feature in our in our email marketing services. Um and so that could be but even HubSpot I don't know if you've been following them but their stock I bought it at the peak that's what I do. >> >> It went from a peak of like 763 I think it's at like 300 now. Just in the last year. And it's basically under the threat that ChatGPT mentioned in a I don't think it was an investor call but just in passing like oh we might launch like a project management software. And just make it part of our $20 a month plan. Mhm. Or maybe it's part of their $200 a month plan. And so that has been specifically targeting HubSpot and some of these CRM tools. And so you're like oh like if you can create the stuff and AI can maintain it and update it or even make it custom just for your business. Like right now we spend $30,000 a year for HubSpot. I'm like okay is this really that much better than a Google spreadsheet or some like you know easier cloud code thing that one person on our team could develop to build that out you know who knows. I think that's the thing that people are a little waiting and seeing. I mean, can you imagine in 10 years like in 10 years, I think you'll be able to say, "Hey, remember HubSpot? Do take that software and replicate it. Take AppSumo and just replicate the whole site, everything." And it'd probably do it like in one shot, right? Well, I think the question there is that, "Okay, well, what's the value?" Right? So, clearly making like I would say our software if the asset of our business, you know, is a little bit of a brand, right? Like people know to go to AppSumo if they want to deal on us and like lifetime deals. There's but I think the asset of the software is not an asset anymore. Like that actual thing to sell to someone else is like, "Okay, I can just replicate this really easy." So, what's the asset? The asset is the email list. The asset is the the affiliate network. The asset is like all the ads that have been running and the creatives that we figured out that worked. But even that like I what I I thought about with AppSumo is like AppSumo 10 years ago, part of the value we had was that we had better marketers than all the software companies. So, you come to us besides the distribution, we could package your product better. Now, you don't need that anymore. Right? Cuz you can go to any of the AI tools be like, "Pretend you're AppSumo, give me the images, titles, text that I should be using that's optimal for my customer." And so, you know, >> what they don't have so, yes, everyone can do that, but it doesn't mean they're going to get a bunch of customers. What you have is like the the email list and trust. Yeah, there's an audience of people that we've built over 15 years and I think we've done a better job in the past few months like regaining that trust. Um so that people AppSumo was like discoverability. Yeah, and I and then I think that's the thing to keep thinking about is like in a world of AI like yes, the AI can create your ads, but you have to spend money on the ads. AI can create your content, but it's a sea of content where everyone else sounds the same as you. And so, you know, in the AI world, uh what all these people are doing if you It's funny on LinkedIn, you could see it where they're all doing dinners. So, they're trying to do offline things. You seen that? I think like Hampton Sam is just like we're going full offline. Yeah. It's probably a smart move at some point. And then you can manage It used to be really hard to manage like 70 different chapters of a place and organize stuff. But then when you have AI, instead of a team of 30, you get three people maybe. Maybe have one and it's just doing all of it. So, I don't know. Maybe maybe it's a smart thing. I'll find bits bits in the I think um Jason Calacanis or something I heard it from who said tool generation tool belt where it's like a girl will want to be a makeup artist and in the past that means you worked at Sephora for $12 an hour. You never went anywhere. But now they're like Kylie Jenner has a giant makeup company or you could be an influencer doing makeup, also working out of store, and potentially making money from social media or a company you build on the side. So, it's like their ideas uh like the next generation's ideas of like what's going to be successful is very different than ours. Ours would be like, well, if you're a lawyer, you got that locked in. Now it's like ChatGPT can be your lawyer and it does pretty good. I set up a trust and um ChatGPT did it all. I still went to a lawyer to like kind of like wrap up some stuff and make sure everything's but for the most part it was like I came prepared with everything I needed and I and I was almost kind of like, why don't I just do this myself? Well, what's the what's the lawyer for? Yeah. And so, I think we're still at a place where like I still would like to pay the lawyer, but um I'm very prepared and in a few years it'll be like, you want me to just do this for you? And I'll be like, yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting. I I always think about the story where you might remember you know my friend Marty? Mhm. I remember when uh ATMs came out >> >> and it's and and I said 60s like Not not just ATMs but online banking. Mhm. And I think it was in the 2000s and he's like his dad was like Marty! Yeah, he's a very funny Japanese >> Exactly. He's he's the best. He's like, I'm never going to I'm online banker, are you crazy? Right? And and it's hard to understand that like these how these things evolve and I think for me I you know, with the Claude code or you know, some of the images I I'm just trying to stay open-minded. I I feel like as I get older I don't necessarily need to chase as much and I'm like, I have to go and be as relevant and do the all these things. Like you just need to find the people that are that are on that level like Chad is. Like Chad loves that. But it's just to be open-minded and curious to like, okay, there ways in in my lifestyle, however they are, that you can integrate it. Like I met this guy recently, I won't say who he is. Um he's like, "I hate AI." And I was like, "Tell me more about that." He's like He's like, "Yeah, I don't want to be productive all day. I don't need to be as optimal all day. I don't need it to figure out all these things for me. And like if I have to figure it out the long way, like I'm okay with that. And I don't know, I think I I was it was kind of a really cool contrarian opinion that you just you're not hearing in our echo chamber. Yeah. >> Right? Like you're hearing everybody like, "Oh dude, I did this like work automation thing that like pipe a thing and a pipe the thing out." But but but like usually usually answer to like technology being bad, like, you know, the answer like something bad in technology is more technology. What do you What do you mean? Uh like uh they developed the nuclear bomb, it was going to destroy the whole world. But then you have technology that can detect nuclear bombs wherever they are, so you know that it's coming. Develop radar to know that a nuclear bomb's coming. So the more technology you develop, the more defense you have against that technology of the past. And so for someone like this who says, "I hate AI." Like it's like Marty's dad saying, "I hate online banking." And now like banking on your phone is actually easier than like logging into the web. Yeah. It's It's It's 10 times better. And so like if you're an older person trying to do your banking, actually on your phone is probably the best way to do it. So ironically, the guy who hates AI could probably benefit from AI in the future being like, "I just want to sit back and fish all day." Okay, cool. The AI can like take care of all the other stuff. The maintenance your robot can do that. Um all your bills, like your like once a once a month, I'll just be like, "Hey, is this good?" Yes, I'll sort it. I'll do your taxes. So like ironically, more AI would probably He hates this current version of AI, is what I'm saying. Like this current version is desktop Netscape in our in our day, where it's just like it's slow, only nerds used it, there weren't that many applications for it. People were chatting on AIM. Parents were like, "What is this? Like what what are you doing? Yeah. You're looking up reviews to Toy Story, that's like the use case. But but it's But it's difficult to predict in the future like how ingrained it is. So, like Mark Andreessen said like software will eat the world like AI will eat the world but in half the time. And we'll probably like it. We probably won't want to go back. >> No, I'm I'm team foreign. I'm I'm on board. I mean, it's a it's going to be trying to get the parents on it. You know, my parents I don't know if your mom Is your mom using it? Uh not necessarily. I guess it happens in the background. Like how much AI is running like on your iPhone and stuff. You know, like your photos. Like it takes a photo and it just like selects the right photo. It's like >> That's AI. That part's pretty cool. Like it shows you things. It's just in the background. Yeah, I I I think with my mom they're going to Alaska and I was like, you know that it can plan everything and recommend all like how to spend every single day really well. >> Mhm. And she's like, all right. No, I don't know. You want to do it for me? My mom uses Alexa all the time. AI? What does she use it Huh? Playing music, weather, what's going on. Yeah, all sorts of stuff. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, yeah. Cool, man. Anything else you want to talk about? I guess we talked about everything in reverse order of what I Yeah, we did a a Noah tangent. >> >> We got to break that. Did you not like that Noah tangent? Was that a derogatory way of saying >> No, no. I don't find it offensive. I think in a world of like YouTube shorts and some of these things that it's hard to stay focused. It's hard to stay on track. No, I'm the I'm the same way by the way. I'm like it it someone was like, oh yeah, I saw a monkey. Oh, one time I saw a monkey and it was like my >> >> I'm the same way. No, no, no. I That That episode specifically was a lot of tangents cuz I I wanted to share about different things. But no, I um No, you know, honestly what's on my mind a lot of it is I think it's like my family. Mhm. And it's weird to say my family. Do you Have you noticed that's weird for you yet? Cuz I say my family I still think of me and my brother, my mom and dad. Mhm. Right? When your family now is like it's your wife and your and your your son. Mhm. Right? Like that's your family. It's like, hey, are you Does your family want to come over? I'm like, no, my mom's in Mexico. She's not coming. Um so I I mean, a lot of my days is that. How do I be a, you know, present and off my phone and not distracted? And And I think with work it's Yeah, I think the AppSumo stuff it's been it's been fun problems and I think what I'm trying to shift it towards is like how do I have the problems that I'm looking forward to waking up in the morning. Mhm. Like how do I have the problems where I'm like just curious? I'm like I don't know about this stuff, but let me go work on some of the distribution, which I like promoting things. How does that work? And how do I I think I need to figure out how to evolve my leadership. I think that's something I'm working through, which is like how do I have better division that's bigger potentially or more exciting? And then really build a stronger you know, cohesive team. I think lately I came back and I was like we're moving a lot of people and just trying to get the numbers there. And I think you need the people to help make sure the numbers get there. Mhm. So I think that's that's something that I think I need You doing it all remote? No one's in person anymore? The sales team meets weekly. I've been going to the office to meet them once a month. I have a poker night next week. What about the condos? They they don't even go to the condos. You know, I sold them? Yeah, that's that's what I thought. No, we have one of them, but they go to a co-working spot like two blocks away. Oh, nice. Um it was funny though. >> which one you're talking about. Uh Bond Collective. That's where they go. Oh, okay. Cool. Well, I was biking today. Oh, do you know the best road in Austin for biking? You know, you're not going to bike it. Unless maybe you will. Spicewood Springs. Isn't that kind of far? Yeah, that's where I was today, dude. That's why I was late. Cuz I was like he was like anyway, I'm sorry. Um but I was biking back through Spicewood Springs and they had like the uh remember ropes course? Like at Boy Scout camp? >> Yeah. They had a ropes course and I was like that's what our team needs. Mhm. Ropes course. We don't need like a dinner you sit around, drink, and whatever. It's like do some where you just like start trusting the people again, you start liking the people again, you start >> Might die, so you have to trust them. Yeah, so you die. Like you're going to do his job? You're not going to want to. >> >> Nice. That's pretty fun. So we need >> I mean this stuff is like kind of exciting. It's like scary and excit- exciting at the same time. Scary if you don't use it and you watch it like surpass you. Which I'm always like a little self-conscious of like, okay, I'm not using cuz you know when we were younger, we just had all the free time in the world. Now like a lot of time goes towards our family, we want to. We don't want to spend all our time like tinkering on stuff, but it's just like then you do need to stay on top of this stuff a lot. I have I have a developer that I work with and I kind of like get my stuff through the like I watch what he does cuz he's just so much better at it. But that's where I kind of absorb most of it from. What Yeah, cuz I was actually surprised I asked you yesterday. I was like, oh, are you building a lot of things? And you've always been a tinker. But I I think obviously you have like a two-month-old son. Yeah. So it's like yeah, you're a little preoccupied. Well, okay. So the thing is like everyone you know on a on Twitter or something people would be like, oh, you can just build stuff one shot it. It's like, yes, okay, you can one shot the game of snake, right? On a on a web app. Okay, but then putting it up and then changing the snake color to blue and then changing and make it it larger. As you do more and more changes, what I've noticed with the AI programming stuff, if you're not a programmer, it starts crapping out after about three, five rounds of of revisions. Have you seen that? Uh yeah, well, like I even tried to set it up. It didn't work. >> Exactly. So like it is over hyped and this we're old enough to remember like the the the the bubble the tech bubble, right? So if you look at tech bubble, Amazon stock, Google stock, all those big companies back then that were like really hyped and dropped coming to drop like 90% those companies ended up being thousands of times larger after that crash. Yeah. Right? And so I think what's happening right now with AI is like we know AI is going to be every part of the world in in every single way and way better than we expect. But I think at the moment its capabilities are still lacking a little. So like we know it's going to get there. So everyone's like psyched about it. And so then like I always also don't want to be a person that's like, ah, it doesn't do what I'm go it's going to. It will do it, but it's not there yet. And so when they say like any any person can be like a dev or whatever. And then they show like Catherine or something. They're like, oh, she built all these apps. Catherine's a pretty technical person. Catherine's also really smart. And so she's like not the average person that's just like, "Oh, just building software out of nowhere." Yeah. Like I guess that the thing I was thinking one I think what what it changes what I've seen in our company is it turns all of our customer support people into developers. And so it turns the cost people into profit people. And that to me is valuable as a business owner. We saw the same thing with analog to digital, right? Yeah, it makes things a lot more efficient. Yeah. >> And so it's just like, "Huh, instead of paying you 50k, now I can pay you 100k because you're actually doing things I can make us more money to the partners, to our customers. Or the person that was getting paid 50k is gone if they can't adapt. >> Yes. But I guess the two things I was curious Yeah, I think you have a kid, but I'm sure And look, I the guy who I met recently I really liked his opinion. He's like, "Look, I'm smart and I'm not going to get passed up. Like if it's really that interesting, I'll spend whatever it takes and I'll figure it out." >> I should But when you say tinkering, I mean like so Swipe File So copywriting course will get extinct because of AI. All the things that we used to do just get ticked off the box. But in the background, I had this little thing like a like a side project. Um Now with AI, it solved all the problems which stopped Swipe File from being big. So now, I don't know if you know this, but like Swipe File has more booked revenue for this year than copywriting course made last year. Um al- almost. Not at not the same level, but almost. And then >> 2026? Yeah. >> You mean sponsorships and stuff or what? Huh, what happened? You didn't tell me about this. I I know it's so That's what we were saying I'm not tinkering. I am tinkering. And so here's the thing. So with Swipe File, the big problem was it was I would like collect things, then have to write about it, then like post it. And if you do this like once a day, it's it's a bit of a chore, it's a bit of a job, and it's it's hard. So I'd write like, "Oh, this is a cool little thing I like." Okay, no big deal. That's not that that impressive. With AI, you can start analyzing it. And even if the AI is kind of crappy now, you know that in a couple months a better model comes, update site, now it's better. Solved. And I can do it across the whole site for seven bucks. And so we've been doing that. And so now and then as AI comes gets more more capable like Nano Banana made it cheap enough to we can regenerate all the images. And then we can say, "Let me uh let me regenerate this image as a 1950s print ad. Let me make it funny. Let me make this ad for AppSumo." And then it automatically does that. Then regenerate whole site cost 20 bucks. So, we have been doing that. And so, all these AI advancements that have come out, so whenever Nano Banana is there, Mhm. Swyftfile had Nano Banana implement on the site within 10 days of that. Um so, like I am tinkering. Like actually all the new things that we do, I get to implement it somewhere. And I actually feel really grateful that I had something like that. Cuz I was like, "Oh, my main business is going to get eaten." But then we have this other one that's like growing. And so, that's been pretty cool to watch. So, all the So, I am like on the I'm not technically implementing it myself because I don't know. I've tried co- I'm not a good coder. I started computer science in college, and I was uh in the computer science club and stuff in high school, and I was really good at that level. And we went to competitions and stuff. And then when we went to college, and I realized like I'm not up here anymore. I'm really like on the bottom. And then not being humble, it's just literally my grades and stuff showed it. It just like objectively I was not a good programmer compared to people that are I don't know, frankly smarter, more dedicated, whatever you want to call it. And so, it makes more sense to work with a developer, someone who's just actually good at this stuff, and I can maybe help direct um that kind of thing. But for me to sit there and implement it takes long even with AI. And just I have all these things installed on my computer, and I use them, but it's just like he can do it like 10 times better though. Totally. So, it's just kind of like his leverage is way better when it comes to coding. I could do it and sit there, but I just won't be that great. So, like we are tinkering. I am tinkering maybe by proxy a little bit. It's also like you're having a baby. Enjoy that being with your son. >> Oh, it was this before the baby, too. >> Yeah, and then you'll get back to I'm not even get back. You'll you'll figure out your new norm of how to work with people that you feel are are um like a whole like standard deviation than you? Yeah, so I've met a few. Not a lot, but a few. Like like like you're my friend, but do you think I'm as smart as Chad, like your partner? In some ways, but not in other ways. >> Exactly. Yeah. And so it's it's kind of cool when you work with someone who's like smarter and you observe you're just like, "Oh, like I just don't have like that raw power." Or maybe just like I'm not interested as much, but like that person is better at a thing. I'm just like I would rather have them do it Totally. I can't see it on this one. You're explaining it like economics I can't see it on You're explaining it like economics like economics 101. I mean it makes more sense. Would you rather hire me a dumb developer to take 10 times longer or have Chad do it and he's like a freaking genius with that stuff, right? He's just going to be just He's just going to be better. Yeah. So like I I've chosen like at this point I'm not tinkering with as much myself. I have, but it's kind of like limited. Like all the stuff you build like when you're like, "Oh, you build an app." and you're like, "But what does it do?" Yeah, I think it's just interesting. >> days later I haven't used it at all. So I'm like, Yeah, that's the point. I think the point is to play around. I think a lot of the play is where you start getting good ideas or like how many times have I was trying to think of one that happened in the house recently where like I made a mistake with something in in the bathroom. I mean I'm trying to think what happened and I was like, "Oh, we can actually use that." Right? It was like, you know, had a lot >> Mistake in the bathroom? You put the toilet seat What are you talking No, but it was like we put soap in something or what you weren't supposed to do it and I forgot that and it was like, "Oh, that actually worked out fine without it." But yeah, I guess my point is a lot of innovation happens through accidents or through just like playing around with things and I think historically I've always seen you be not necessarily being on the cutting edge and early adopter, but just like yeah, I just mess around with stuff and then like, you know, cool things come of that. >> I think it is. I think I maybe still talk about it as much. I think before I used to be like build in public and now I'm kind of like Mhm. No. Not as much. Yeah, I don't I don't know if I it's as I I like sharing if it's as beneficial anymore. To some extent. I think just people copy or they I don't know. I don't know if it's as beneficial. Your business is literally telling people to copy. I mean like you have it in the name. >> That's true. Swipe File. >> >> And copy. Copy writing course. It's not like don't copy writing course.com. Ah, good point. Copy writing course. Wow, this is Seinfeld. >> >> All right, shall we end here? Yeah, it was fun. Let's do the thing. Nice man, good seeing you. Sweet.