Thanks Dominique for joining us today. Um we're really grateful for you giving up your time to speak to us with the future of bar series. And before we get going with some questions, could I ask you um for the benefit of the audience just to introduce yourself please um let people know your area of focus when you were called to the bar and if you wouldn't mind just sharing a brief um explanation of your journey from university to where you are now. >> Sure. So I am a barristister at DECA Chambers and I specialize in personal injury, clinical negligence, inquests and travel law. and travel law. Um, by that I mean international personal injury if there's a death abroad or something like that for example or a package holiday where something goes wrong. I uh was called to the bar in 2016 and I didn't I should say I didn't ever have the bar as a career in mind. I went to state school and my heart was set from a very young age on becoming a doctor. I wanted nothing more than to be a doctor. And my parents hadn't been to uni and thought, I'm sure, you know, she wants to do it, she can do it. But they didn't know any doctors or anyone in the medical profession to speak to to say, is she doing the right things? Is this the right career for her? So, I went in blindly and managed to somehow get in and I did. And I ended up hating it for the moment I got there. >> Oh, no. which I think when you're young and you're trying to think of what profession you want to do, you often sit and think, I like the idea of this. Oh, I'm going to be saving lives, for example, in that situation. That's not what a doctor does predominantly, and there's a lot more than that, and you can't of course save everyone. And I just knew inherently in my gut that it was wrong. So I made a decision to then leave and I'd stuck it out for for just over two years and thought, "Okay, now's the time. If I don't do it now, I'm going to continue to be miserable." So I left and then decided to embark on a law degree and ended up at the bar. >> Wow. Um that's a really brave decision to make to um decide to step away from what you thought was going to be your profession as a doctor um two ways in. How did um how did your family react to that? Was did you face any sort of pressures or challenges over your decision? No, they were really supportive. And I think the funny thing was my mom said to me at the time, I knew that you were happy from from the get-go essentially, but she said, you were so determined to try and get through it. And I think from my perspective, I just thought it will get better over time that surely it has to improve. Maybe these are just teething issues. I haven't been to university before. And so when I finally turned around and said to them, I I just can't do this. My mom said, just come home. just come home. It's fine. So, they were really, really supportive. But the caveat to that was that she said, "No, now you're home. We need to go out and get a job because I can't afford for you to be sitting around." Um, so I then had to go and go and work and make sure that I could help support my family essentially. >> Okay. So, did did you jump straight from your your medical degree into a law degree or did you have a bit of time? >> A bit of time, I guess. So, you were a mature student. Yes, >> absolutely. So I had gosh it was about 6 months or so and I went and worked in a theme park which >> one quick thought park and it came up in my interview when I was doing um pupilage applications but yes I went and worked there in customer service which was very entertaining and someone I worked with was doing a law degree and wanted to be a solicitor. So I then started asking questions and I decided at that point I was going to apply in any event for a law degree but I didn't start until the September. I'd left med school in around the February, March. So, bit of time. >> Bit of time. So, that's that's a really um encouraging story. Um and shows, you know, you got to follow your gut feel sometimes with these sorts of things. >> I think you do. And it it's okay when you're younger to think actually I don't know what I want to do and I need a bit more time. And with hindsight, I look back now and think maybe the better thing to do would have been to have a gap year to see really was that the career for me because I obviously went along and it it didn't work out. But I don't regret anything as to how I ended up here and it was a a pivotal part of my journey. So thinking about those pivotal moments in your journey to where you are now, um can you think of any particular instances that made you think do you know what I really have made the right decision? this is the right path for me and gave you that confidence to to carry on your journey. >> Sure. I think actually there's one moment that springs to mind. When I was at the very early stages of law school, I thought, okay, I like the idea of the career of a barristister. It sounds really interesting to me. Didn't of course want to make the same mistake that I made previously and realized I needed to go get some work experience. But the problem I had and I I I think it was because my CV had been so heavily medically orientated is that when I was applying for many people just wasn't getting anywhere. I seem to feel that the lack of legal work experience hindered me in that respect. But then I couldn't get legal work experience because I was just getting rejected for many pupilages. So I went to an inner temple event and it was an event for university students that you could go along to and they had a lecture and then a drinks reception afterwards and I got chatting to someone and I couldn't see at the time his name badge and whilst we're talking he was saying to me well tell me about your your journey so far and your your um ambitions. I spent a lot of time moaning about the fact I couldn't get work experience and he said to me, "Why don't you just come and sit with me for a week and I hadn't clocked that it was Mr. Justice James Goss?" >> Wow. >> And from that he gave me my my week of marshalling in the high court and I watched barristers. It was incredible. It was amazing to see that to see then the inner workings of the judiciary and realized not only one was this an incredible act of kindness but two this is where I want to be this is what I want to do and I now make sure I make the effort to repay those acts of kindness as well to students coming up because we all need our first break to get in >> that's that's really inspiring and it is it is sometimes that chicken and egg isn't it you know people are wanting to see that legal work experience but nobody will give you that legal work experience. >> It's really tough, isn't it? >> You can't get what people are wanting from you. So, it I think it's what shines through what you've said there is, you know, sometimes you got to look a little bit sideways um and think about different routes and there was an element of luck obviously in that conversation, but you know, exploring those opportunities and taking advantage >> of of them when they come along. >> Absolutely. And I think that's the thing that you know by by all means it's not going to be the case for everyone that you're going to go to an event and someone's going to offer work experience but I couldn't believe the generosity actually and that's something that's been um paramount in my career. There have been numerous people who have been so kind and so supportive on my way here and that was really attractive again about the profession because it showed to me actually I would be nurtured here. I would be nurtured in what I was doing and people want you to do well and want to help you get there. That's really good to hear and I know that will give encouragement to a lot of people. Your route to becoming a barristister I I think it's fair to say was probably non-standard. Yes. Um you've had a bit of a squiggly squiggly journey to get to where you are now. Um so if anyone is listening to this who um is in a similar pos similar position to you and is maybe facing some of the same challenges um and they're thinking you know there there are certain barriers that they need to overcome. um what advice would you give to them and and also looking back from what you knew then versus what you know now working in the profession do you think things are different now for those wanting to start out on this career >> so I think with the first question I would say that nothing is off limits and you can achieve things you just have to be persistent you might feel that you may not have the same opportunities as others and certainly when I went to university was one of my cohort that wanted to be a barristister that there wasn't really hardly anyone else there that wanted to predominantly people wanted to be a solicitor and on top of that I didn't know any barristers I didn't I didn't have a foot in the door to just even go and see someone or shadow but I didn't give up on that and I remember having conversations of well why don't you consider x alternative but my mind was made up and that was what I wanted to do so I'd encourage anyone to keep persisting to keep trying. There are more opportunities now perhaps than when I was starting out. There are great organizations such as Bridging the Bar that really help try and target people who may not have come from traditional roots into the bar or from certainly from from Oxford or Cambridge or places like that in terms of university education. And it's it's those organizations that I think that people need to try if they if they want to be a barristister, if they want to to get into this profession, try and engage with. The ins are fantastic and again are an underutilized resource I think because I'd seen from one of my lecturers, oh there's an event going on and had I not gone to that, I wouldn't of course then got some marshling and and ended up um where I did. But I think that everyone's more open and more willing to share their stories and share guidance and assistance as to how they got here. Whereas certain things were quite taboo almost as it were when I was applying that it was quite competitive. People didn't say, "Oh, okay. Well, you might need to do this, you might need to do that." I think everyone's a bit more transparent about what you need. You need three to five minute pupilages. You need marshalling. You need this, that, and the other. Certainly it wasn't as open as that when I was starting out. >> So moving on to think about um the pupilage process and um if anyone on this call is preparing to embark on that journey, what sort of skills do you think from your experience um they should focus on developing? I mean I've picked up a few already. You know, resilience, persistence, putting yourself out there and being brave. you've covered those in spades already, but are there any other skills that you think it's really important people should be looking to develop if they don't feel they have those skills already? I think it's interesting that we we talk a lot about communication skills and and oral advocacy. But there is another element that we we don't talk about enough which I think is actually interpersonal skills is talking to people being able to adapt to difficult situations. And that's where when I look at pupilage applications for examples or CVS from people who are thinking of applying sometimes they're very legally focused they are full of many pupilages marshalling mooting debating all the things that we like to see but I don't know how they would be able to break some to someone for example that they don't have a case if there's been a difficult situation. So if I put it into context when I uh was in a conference last week as a lady who suffered very very nasty injuries as a result of a delayed diagnosis of cordina and I sat through talking to experts and I had to break to her at the end that unfortunately that there wasn't anywhere that we could go with her case the prospects of success were not good and they are very difficult conversations to have and I gained a lot of experience from working at Tesco from working at Pizza Hut places like that you wouldn't think but I had angry customers. I had to deal with someone was dissatisfied. Their milk had gone off and it's all of Tesco's fault. you know, that sort of situation. And I want to see that in and I really think it's important for people to try and get that life experience to be able to deal with those situations because you will experience difficulties in your career or you have a client that's going through something really difficult or you just have a tough day with witnesses, opponents, judges, and it's more than resilience. I think it's knowing how to communicate in those difficult times to make sure that everyone is informed well as to what's going on that you're able to manage that situation if that makes sense. So, so having that broader life experience that you had through your alternative journey and the the route you took gave you a lot of those sort of life skills really that have really come into play. >> Absolutely. Your current job. >> Absolutely. Really interesting. I think particularly if you want to do personal injury work, clinical negligence inquests and inquiries that I do, you you may be dealing with a brieved family and if you have focused obviously of course as we want you to on developing the legal side of your CV. Again, I I want to see how would you cope in managing a family who is absolutely devastated by the loss of someone when you're trying to take instructions from them and get them through uh an administrative hearing in in a coroner's court, for example. How do you handle that? What skills have you learned from your life experiences that enable you to develop those interpersonal skills that can help you manage that situation? So, it's it's taking those those life skills, those human interactions and overlaying them onto your legal experience, which is obviously hugely important for a career in the bar, but it's not the be all and endor. >> Yes, exactly. >> Brilliant. Thank you. If I asked you to describe what you think the future barrister looks like, obviously you're the current barristister. Um, do you think the role looks any different to what it does now? I think it I think it is to some degree particularly since co I think those juniors that are coming up in the profession are far more adaptable perhaps than than some of us have been because we were brought up in the profession in a different way. And I appreciate I'm still you know just nearly 10 years cool but uh I remember starting off and working from home was not something that really happened. remote hearings didn't happen particularly often. Certainly, it was you might have the old telephone hearing, for example. I think they're more flexible. They're going to be more adaptable and how they deal with technology um compared to to where we were really. And so, from that perspective, I think they'll be different. But then that may of course interplay on their communication skills and how do you manage again dealing with clients? they might have a better way of handling it than than us now trying to work out through WhatsApp and other things of how do you speak to your witnesses when you need to take instructions and mid- hearing and that sort of thing. >> I was just thinking back to something you said a moment ago. So that was obviously what you think the future barrista looks like and we've talked a bit about your journey and how you've got there. So, if I can take you back to those early days when you first you first got called and it's so exciting. You know, you're now a barristister and you you will have had some expectations of what the role was going to be and what your future looked like. How does the reality or how has the reality differed from what your expectations were when you first started on this journey? I think I thought that work would be put in my diary and if I did well at hearing then that would equal a successful career and there's there's more to it than that. You have to really market yourself. You have to put yourself out there to interact with clients and try and improve your profile. Certainly I think that's that's something I underestimated. And I also underestimated before I started pupilage how difficult some of your days would be. You you very much see at the bar peaks and troughs in your practice. You might have a really quiet week, everything settles. Everything disappears from your diary. You don't have much to do and you think, will I ever work again? >> And then the next week or a few weeks on the trot, you will be so busy. And and it's managing that. I didn't quite I think understand at the time how intense some of those periods could be and managing my personal life with my work life and making sure I was getting some time for myself. That's what I didn't quite anticipate and that's taken some getting used to because there are days where it's difficult. There are weeks where you think I've I've not had a weekend for a couple of weeks. Why why is that the case? What do I need to do to change that? Is there anything I can do? And that intensity is something you don't generally experience before you do this. >> And and just taking that in slightly different direction, the areas of practice that you work in are tough. >> Yes. >> You know, you must be hearing some awful things and supporting some clients that have been through the most hideous of circumstances. And that must be tough on you. >> I think, you know, you're a human and you're very I can tell you're very empathetic. How how do you cope as a barristister? Because obviously you need to put that professionalism and that sort of protective screen up almost to stop yourself being >> you do >> you know cuz it could drag you down couldn't it listening to this stuff week in week out. I think it it comes back to a bigger point about well-being which is much more of a priority now in the profession quite rightly um than a few years ago when it wasn't discussed as much particularly when I was a junior and you are dealing with sometimes as you say some really intense cases and I've had some inquest for example where someone's died and I'm dealing with the family and they are distraught by what has happened or some evidence has come out that we didn't anticipate >> and it's it's managing that and and trying to yourself not share with that emotion, if you see what I mean. It's very easy in a in a room of people who are upset to take a breath, think, okay, I need to to try and be strong for them and and make sure I can help get them through. >> And in my early years of practice, I think I thought, I just need to get through this. I just need to to get through these difficult periods. Wall up as you say, >> but actually they're human as are you. And you need to take that time to decompress, particularly after a really difficult hearing. I would come home and think, okay, I need to look at my diary and what I've got on. What can I do this evening that's going to make me feel better? Which might be chocolate and pizza. I'm just going to put it out there. Nothing wrong with that. >> Nothing wrong with that. Um, but it may well be that I need a day to just decompress and do other things outside of work to calm myself or to go to the gym to try and just take away the anxiety of the day or the stress of the day. And that's something I think I'm a lot better at now. But certainly, you all need to have some form of hobby or something outside of work or even if it's that you meet up with friends and you you have a regular fixture in your diary that you do something to just make sure that you talk about these things. Number one, you talk about how things are are going and you share that if you've had a difficult week, you need to make sure you've got people in chambers that you'll go to as a a phone call to say, "Can I just have a chat? Can I just talk about something?" and an activity I would say that just allows you to forget about it. >> Yeah. So it's it's it's managing your own stress bucket if you've read any of those business books, isn't it? Yeah. And not letting it overflow. Um thank you for that. You've given some insight there into how you can be busy one week, not busy the other week. You know, some cases are really challenging more so than others, but you know, we all have lives outside of our careers. How how do you manage that work life balance yourself and make sure that you you do give yourself some time to do what you need to do? >> I make sure I have time for me put aside in the diary to do certain hobbies and things which I never used to do when I was very junior and I very much got into this pattern of trying to accept anything and everything that came my way for fear of of never working again. And that wasn't a pressure that anyone put on me other than myself, if that makes sense. >> And I think that's probably as a result of how hard it was for me to get here that I thought I can't possibly say no to something. Giving an example, I had a week once where I was back to back in court every day and the cler said, "Look, there's a piece of paperwork that's come in. It's Tuesday. It's due on Friday by close of play. We can see you're completely busy. we don't think you're going to be able to do it capacity-wise, but we just wanted to double check with you before we go back to the client. And there was me thinking, I I have to say yes, and there's no way I can. I I don't have the time to do it, but I'm going to do it anyway because what if they never instruct me again? What if I never work again? That's mad. That's mad to think that. But I felt I couldn't say no. And the difficulty with that is that you then get yourself in a situation where you don't have boundaries. You don't protect your own well-being and that can't continue and it's not healthy. You then end up reaching a point of burnout. I think which is something that a lot of people in this profession do. So I think that particularly because in my own situation it got to a point where I thought I have worked every weekend for months. I haven't seen friends for ages. I haven't had that time. There's something that had to change. >> Now I put these blocks out in my diary and make sure for example I now do aerial skills in my spare time. So I do circus stunts and things like that in my spare time. So only we had a trapeze. >> I know. I know. So every week I have to make sure I get to a session. Come what may, there'll be something in the diary that allows me to do that. unless I'm of course in a multi-day hearing. But I do that for me to have that time away because then I don't think I don't think about work. I don't think about anything other than trying to nail the move, which is a good break away >> and actually really good for my wellbeing. I think >> I can understand, you know, when you're starting off, I I remember it myself. There's a fear. There's a fear of saying no. But you have to get better sometimes, don't you? At not saying no, but maybe not now. >> Yes. Okay. >> And people will respect you, but often it is your own pressure you put on yourself and others would not look back badly on you for saying no, but you feel you can't. So, it's that comes with experience. I appreciate it. >> It does. And it's not in my situation. You know, my clients have always been so lovely. It wasn't them saying you need to do this at all. It was saying, "It's up to you, but we don't think you've got time to do this." And still, I would say, "Of course, I I can squeeze this in." and then be up till 2 3 in the morning drafting something that I didn't have the time for and then going to work the next day exhausted and trying to battle through. So >> possibly not doing as good a job as you could do because you're tired and >> exactly exhausted. >> You don't think as sharply as you would like to otherwise. That's something that we all need to work and we all need to do. But certainly now I make a point of doing to make sure that I have a weekend and there will be weekends I I have to work. It comes with the territory. It comes with the job, you know, >> of course, >> but I want to make sure that I can do things on my time as often as I can that my life is then not just work. >> And are you seeing um across the profession mental health and well-being rising up the agenda for chambers? >> And it should it should. It's not something that was discussed very often particularly when I was quite junior but there are so many people that I know that have had struggles as many of us do >> and there's nothing to be ashamed of that and it's not a shameful thing to talk about actually we all need to talk about it more we need to be receptive to how we can support someone who's going through that and if it's the fact that you like me for example was putting insane pressure on yourself to try and get work and to try and make sure that you did as much as possible that can be addressed and actually it's those simple conversations that you need to have to say how are you how how is everything >> and we need to do that more but we certainly have been and it's been a real agenda for the bar council I believe and chambers generally which I think is a really positive step >> so it's just taking steps to normalize these conversations thank you >> earlier you mentioned about the importance of personal marketing of yourselves um which leads nicely on to some questions around the sort of use of social media. >> Sure. >> Um, do you use social media? How much is it used in the bar nowadays? Do you think >> LinkedIn is now very popular? LinkedIn is full of barristers. It used to be predominantly Twitter, now X and a lot have moved on to to LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is the main site I would say and you can see a lot of people who are using it and you tend to find a lot of students actually then follow grasses or follow chambers to get access to the articles that we've written for example to make sure that they know what's going on what's current in in the world of the law in that particular area or with that chambers if they're applying for pledge. >> Okay. So obviously the bar is a very traditional um profession. So you think there are still a lot of people out there that that don't embrace social media. I think you could look and take a a group of barristers and say who uses it, who doesn't, who wants to use it, who doesn't, and you would have a split every time. Some people, I think, think that it's a bit of a burden. It's a lot to upkeep. Do you want to post um a lot? Do you want to not post a lot? Is it going to make a difference to your practice if you share something? What's the point of it? If you see what I mean? But I've actually found it really helpful because I found that I've posted articles that I've written or I've had something that's come out about a case that I've been involved in. Chambers may post about it and I have had then solicitors contact us through um say look we we've seen that Dominic's put an article up. We're really interested we've got a similar case. Would you mind looking at these papers? So you can get work out of it. But I think that more importantly, it's a it's a helpful platform a lot of the time I find to keep up to date with what's going on. Sometimes people post a case and you think that's I've got a case that sounds like this. That's really helpful. This is judgment I didn't know about. And then you can use that for example. >> Having those sorts of skills, those technical skills and that understanding and awareness of how to to utilize social media for the benefit of yourself and your chambers is a useful thing to try and highlight. >> Yes. I think it makes you more personable. That's what I've noticed particularly >> and maybe more accessible. >> I think so. I think since the pandemic, that's where things have really changed because I have a much closer bond with a lot of my sisters now that interrupt me quite frequently because we speak on a more personal level and my posts may be less formal as like compared to what they used to be. Um, so but I, you know, I do think there's a line and you don't want to get into the realms of oversharing and talking about, oh well, I went bowling this weekend and >> you need those professional boundaries. >> Exactly. But so there there's always a line to be drawn, but I do think it's helpful because I I think it shows that you are, as you say, more personable, more accessible. >> So social media, uh, we've just talked a little bit about that. Just expanding on the tech skills side of things. Cannot have a conversation. And we've spoken probably for however long 15 20 minutes and I haven't mentioned AI which goes against all the rules of conversations at the moment. So I'm going to bring in AI if that's okay. Um could you do you use AI in your own personal life? >> Yes, you do. And are you comfortable using it? >> So I use it very briefly as it were on say for example Lexus search engine Wessel search engine. I will if there's an AI tool that might be able to help you join >> dots as to find something relevant about a particular question I'll use that but I have to be extremely cautious with it >> of course >> because you might type in for example occupiers liability case and then a question related to that and some of the things that will pull up when you click on them you think actually that might be about one part of it that's not quite relevant to the query that I have what you don't want to do of course as I'm will come on to talk about is is use aspects in your skeletons or use it in your work when they're not relevant at all or might be in some instances not on those sites obviously not correct >> I don't use chat GPT I don't use anything else like that so I'm fairly confident that the engines that I am using are ones that are fine >> AI in the instances you've given are a great virtual assistant you know they can help you start something off or your thought processes or your research, but the human in the loop element is so important. >> I think so. What I've learned through my experience, and I'm sure you're going through the same, is it's a skill to use AI. It is. >> And you can't expect it to just be perfect. No. >> Um, some of my prompts, personally speaking, when I've started to try and use these tools on my own product that I know and I work with have been terrible, and the output has been pretty terrible. But I've learned to, you know, ask the right questions and request and that is a skill in itself. And it sounds like you're on that journey already. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's very much for me a starting point and that's it. >> Yeah. >> I don't use it to carry out extensive research. I I might use it to put me on a particular path as it were to research but then I will for example then go and look at cases on on Lexus and take my journey for look at a textbook and go from there. If I if for example I didn't know where to start that's when I would use it but that's about it. >> Yeah it's um with we see it a lot when we speak to our customers. Everyone's on their own journey with AI. I mean, different people are at different points and the technology is changing so quickly and it's it's really exciting, but yes, we've got to catch up. You use it a bit in your work. Um, I'm sure you'll use it more as it develops. Do you think AI is used more widely across the bar or is it still the minority that are triing it in the way you are? And do you think AI could help to transform the bar or modernize it in any way? I think it's it's hard to say how widely it's being used, but we are now starting to see cases coming out of barristers using AI. And this comes back to the point we were talking about earlier about being careful with it. And I think it's particularly engines like chat GPT that people might type something in and have a case pop up that doesn't exist. >> Well, there's been some horror stories >> and there's been some real horror stories, particularly um one in relation to someone who was a pupil. And that's where you have to be so careful, I think, with AI. You know, if you if you're going to use it and you find a case, does that case have a reference? Have you looked it up? Have you got a copy of the judgment? Is it real? Essentially, are you doing those fact checks to make sure it is? Because >> if it isn't, you're also going to get yourself in in real difficulty. So, I think that a lot of people are hesitant to use it for those reasons. don't want to get yourself into a mess. But you can do that quite easily of of actually just checking the tool that you're using. I trust obviously the engines I'm using, the platforms that I'm using like Lexus. I trust that. I don't use outside ones for that reason that I worry that would then bring up something that just simply isn't correct. But I think in the future if we're looking at AI, it's going to become more sophisticated. That's what we're certainly seeing in any event. I still think that you'd need to be incredibly careful with this. I can't see that you're ever not going to have to fact check not have to go and say okay here is a judgment it's here's the the citation it is real as it were because you don't want to fall into those difficulties >> absolutely and uh it's comforting to hear because you you know the press puts out wild statements AI is the end of the lawyer and things like that um but it's not no it's just a tool to help lawyers but it's not going to replace certainly not in our lifetimes. I don't >> I'd hope not. >> Um, so we've covered some of the potential challenges and barriers to AI. Um, on the flip of that, the advantages you are using it. Are you finding it's saving you time? It's making you work more efficiently or it's enabling you to do more. It depends how well I write a prompt with that to that point. Yes, agreed. If I don't write something um sophisticated enough, I'll have lots of hits of things come up. Say for example, let's say the occupiers liability, I might then get up a lot of articles or about the occupiers liability act, but it might be something quite specific that I need to to look at. And I would then maybe add on a word or two to try and narrow that search. I'm not very good at at that. So I tend to find if I do use it, I I need to get better at reducing that volume to make it a bit more relevant as it were. But I think that comes with time. >> So you're basically saying it's a bit clunky for you at the moment because you're developing your prompting. >> Because a bit clunky with it. Yes. >> I didn't want to say that, but as as you get better at prompting >> Yeah. >> the answers you get will be better. >> Yes. >> And hopefully it will then start. >> Yes. To pay back the time that you're investing now. >> Definitely. >> That's great. Thank you. I don't want to end our conversation without um giving you the opportunity to leave um the audience with some key takeaways from your perspective. Um so whether the people listening are current barristers, pupils, >> sure, >> law students just thinking about starting on that journey, if you could give two or three maybe top takeaways, top insights that you would like to leave them with from your experience, what would those be? I think one that anything's possible. You don't have to put barriers or limits on yourself. And certainly I in the early years of my career and even in my path here would have moments where I thought this just isn't meant for someone like me. You shouldn't do that because it is possible and you need to find that inner strength to carry on. You can break down barriers. You can get through, but you have to have the inner strength to do that. So I'd certainly say that's top tip number one. Number two is that support is there when you need it and guidance is always there even at these early stages. Use the resources that the ins have. For example, many chambers may have webinars on that they might have an interesting topic that you think actually this is great and it might be helpful for me to listen to. there might be some sort of event again through the ins or other organizations like bridging the bar that would help you get your foot in the door, help you familiarize yourself with what you may need to do for a pupil application. So I would certainly make sure that you're following all the channels, making sure you're keeping up to date with those organizations and taking every opportunity that passes by so that you don't miss out and you can help get yourself there. >> You never know what's going to come out of any of these things. Exactly. Okay, Dominic, thank you so much for your time today and for your cander. Um, it's been so interesting talking to you and I'm sure our viewers will get so much out of this conversation. So, thanks again. Thank you for having me.