This podcast is 100% AI. You are listening to the Epstein Files, the world's first AI native investigation. And yet, it's topping the charts with more than a million downloads. So, what does the creator behind the Epstein Files podcast say about where the creator economy and content is headed? Other podcasters have criticized me destroying the art of being a journalist. Curation is the only thing that matters. And I think those who have the better taste in curating the right angles and stories and understand what people want to hear and how they want to hear it and can deliver it to them the best form factor, those are the people going to win and that holds true for all the creators that do very well. Today's episode is sponsored by Arch Lending. Arch lets you borrow against your Bitcoin, Ether, Soul with terms up to 12 months. Every loan is backed by qualified custody with a strict no rehypothecation policy. Get funded in USD or USDC in minutes with a flexible line of credit that grows with your collateral, plus white glove support from real people when you need it. Start your loan at archlandending.com. All right, with us on Coinage today, Adam Levy, the creator of the Epstein Files and friend of the show. Adam, it's good to see you, man. >> What's up? Thanks for having me, man. How you doing? >> I'm I'm good. I'm excited to chat because so much of where your interests lie, where my interests lie, where the public's interests lie are colliding with what you've pioneered here in what I think is fair to say the first mainstream podcast created fully with AI, the Epstein files. So, I'm excited to kind of dig into what prompted all this, the traction you've seen, what it sparked now as you think about what the future of content looks like in the world of AI. But uh but how's it been for you, man? I mean, just for starters, it's pretty crazy cuz on Twitter, we just see a bunch of people talking about AI podcasts and I'm like, "Oh, wait, that's Adams." Uh and the Epstein files continues to pop off. How you doing? >> I'm good, man. I'm good. Yeah, it's been um a very unexpected wide, that's for sure. Um yeah, man. I uh I uh I've been I've been diving deeper into figuring out what synthetic media looks like and the Epstein files has been the first forte in doing so. Um and I'm very very happy with where with where it's at. Very unexpected, very surprised completely with what happened, but needless to say, very grateful for all the traction. Yeah. Have you listened to an episode? >> I have listened to an episode. And the ironic thing too, because I guess some people say that Coinage is a podcast, even though I consider it to be a video show. Uh, and I guess podcast, video shows, what are they really anymore in today's era? Um, but I don't really listen to podcasts. I'll be honest with you. I've never really I don't know what to do with my eyes. So, I I generally mostly just look at video content. Um, but I do want to go kind of go back to the beginning because for you and your background, I didn't know if you were a podcast guy either because when I went on your show, it was on video, I think, and then it was posted as a podcast. So, I was like, "Okay, maybe Adam's just more of a podcast guy." >> Um, but maybe we start with your background and kind of like the fact that you've been in content before >> and when you started to go down the AI rabbit hole and and wanted to kind of launch your own AI podcast. Yeah, I've been doing content for well over five years now. Um, I've been a I've been a creator at my core and I got started being a creator when I was working at one of Tim Draper's venture funds that was purely focused on crypto. I was doing this show called Blockchain and Booze. It was during COVID. It was a weekly live stream every Tuesday. we'd meet for two hours and um I kind of got into the rhythm of creating content around crypto through that and then I I shortly left afterwards to create my own podcast and eventually newsletter called Mint and I grew Mint to roughly like the email list hit over 100,000 subscribers and at some point in the process I was publishing between 40 to 60 pieces of content a week and then eventually got burnt out from doing that and I guess like embodying All that is kind of the root of trying to figure out what AI content could look like, AI podcast in particular. And the story of the Epsune files really started, I guess, start in December. Um, I built this app for myself called Distill. >> And Distill is like my own personal app. You can't find it online or in the app store. basically allows me to take different sources and combine them into a uh think of it as like a a funnel to extract all the transcripts and contextualize the the information all the sources that I'm getting and then to create me this audio podcast from it this AI podcast because I learn best through media. So I already do this for myself personally like you'll see over here like I have this like Instagram video added and it basically summarizes what the video is. It gives me the transcript and then it allows me to open it in notebook LM to generate like a more formal audio. Now notebookm has this feature but at the time it didn't have the whole like synthesis of multiple sources extracting the transcript factchecking like all these things. Um so that was the root of doing that because I do this for myself naturally like that's just how I learn. So when the Epson files came out, there was a ton of data and I also have a background building data products with bellow which you're familiar with Zack customer of bellow analyzing your onchain audience and I don't know I it feels like the intersection of my love for creating content my love for media and my love for building products and big data you know all kind of like combined into one and the Epstein files was a result of I guess the intersection of all that. So distill was the root of doing a lot of like my own self-learning and then seeing okay this is a really interesting challenge like let me try to take this a large amount of data and then contextualize it and then figure out how I can create a really interesting story from it that's um sourcerich and that people could follow because >> no single person no no newsroom could ever filter through um three and a half million documents you know >> well yeah and as you I mean I guess that's the interesting thing to think about it and too obviously ly as you know from uh from our days and and me going on mints like coin edge is very much built around the same concept is that crypto moves so fast it's impossible for one person to really kind of like figure out what's real in the space so we rely on a community of of aligned uh NFT holders community members trying to trying to help us parse everything but but I guess very similar in terms of like when you saw the Epstein files and it started to come out and you took all of those learnings it's kind of a perfect storm of like you said a bunch of data because all these files are getting uploaded all the time and uh as you said no newsroom kind of has the staff to kind of just jump on something or like turn it on. Normally if there's documentaries green lit takes time to even source staff hire people and then start going through everything. So they they just move slower. And so what were kind of like the points in your head where you're like oh wait a minute this might be the kind of perfect storm for for a content series that could work with what I've built? I think um people are giving me much more credit than I deserve. It was really just like let me see if I could build this. Like that was the only thing I cared about. Like this is a really fun challenge. Let me see if I could hack it together. And I hacked it in a matter of two days and then just published it and like didn't even look back. I have so many ideas that I work through and all these tools give you the opportunity to bring these ideas to life faster and cheaper than ever before. So it's never been a better time to create your imagination. And I kind of had this random idea of how could I combine the data, create a content outline, create audio through it, do it in an autonomous manner, make it sourcerich without any conspiracy talking heads, dem Democrat talking heads, Republican talking heads, like the information without the spin and allow people to look back at what sources were used to compile each episode. kind of like Wikipedia meets podcasts, you know, in in a in a in a in a similar vein. And um that's really it. Like I really didn't expect anything else. I really love building things. I and and this is the first time where I'm thinking about media as a product, media in the form of software. And historically media has always been, you know, the bottleneck of media have been has been the people that produce the media itself. And now you can write media programmatically. And that's never been the case. And that's um that's the area that I'm really really excited about. Like really excited about. >> I think the the well there's a lot to get into off that, but I think again just creator to creator there's a moment uh anytime you kind of hit publish that you're like man I hope this does well. Um, and I wanted to ask you kind of about that moment where you started to see things doing well because it is I mean as you noted in your your tweet kind of talking about the top podcast globally sometimes they only get like 5,000 downloads in the first few days but then you started to kind of see this this hockey stick growth which is always the dream when you hit publish. I mean what was that moment like for you if it was just kind of like hey let's see if this works and then you start to see it blow up like that. >> Yeah. I don't know. It was so unexpected. That's so unexpected. I've been podcasting for years through Mint and the audience that I've been podcasting for for is so niche. >> Mint's intersection was where creators meet crypto and the audience for that is already generally small, like incredibly small. So, >> I I don't I didn't I didn't know what it was like to have like a large listener base if not through the email list that I built. like that was my largest platform and seeing all those downloads has been it's been really insightful. Like I've learned so much throughout the process. It's taught me way more in like the last I think like 45 to 60 days at this point than maybe producing mint for three and a half four years. And um cuz once you get traction on something, you start to one, there's a ton of inbound that happens, a lot of attention that happens, and then you try to recreate what you did. >> Mhm. >> And um kind of like backtrack your steps, you know, so you could do it again, which is what Wardesk is. And now Waresk is on track to hit, you know, 70 to 100K downloads um within its first month of launch. And um it's been it's been such a an amazing experience building these these synthetic the synthetic IP and I really think that's where the future is going. >> Yeah. I want to get into into all that. Uh so you mentioned War kind of the second one and you kind of mentioned some of the takeaways from scaling one hit into the next which is I think how like a lot of podcast studios have worked whether they're human or AI. uh as you get a banger, you get a winner and you kind of start to leverage that existing audience into the next one. And uh you know, obviously podcast that's focused on the Epstein files might be a little bit different than what you're doing with Waresk, but nonetheless, very easy to leverage the audience. Um and uh I guess with that, the other one is I think it hit number one in the UK. So it's not as if it's just saying like, hey, there was some traction here. It was like, no, it was podcast charts like top five in the US and then number one in the UK. Uh, I mean, how did that change what you were trying to do with it? Because it's one thing to say like, "Hey, I'm going to vibe code this on a weekend and see what happens." Like, what was kind of the next evolution when you did hit like top charts? Um the next evolution was thinking through, you know, taking a step back of what I was doing in crypto to think about maybe I should double down on this direction. And um yeah, that's um that's kind of like it's like you you build so long in a space that because I have a background building crypto products, you know, whether it be, >> you know, building the newsletter or more recently like I built the data product and then pivoted into BP. fun and an industry that consistently takes hits and an industry whose businesses built on top of it relatively depend on the market at large. And if the market is down, your business is down. If the market is up, your business is up. And there's very few evergreen products that just have this flatline maintenance, you know, in in generating value regardless of the market's condition. And um I think with that seeing this come out in a particular time made me realize like maybe this is a direction where I should be spending my energy. Like back to the the point of like it's the intersection between my love for building software and just the software industry in general, content creation and media, you know, like what the future of media looks like. It's like the intersection of figuring this stuff out. And frankly, I feel like I was born to do this. Like I really feel that in my core and seeing what the Epstein files did kind of made me realize like wait did I get lucky or can I reproduce this and what is the what is the formula to actually reproducing you know building synthetic IP that has authority that has you know stickiness and can can build retention the way traditional IP and traditional human human IP and what does that look like as a product and um so for me it's like venture ing now into this path of thinking through what media as a product is and treating episodes as features. Just like keep shipping episodes, keep shipping features onto your product and let the data improve the next incremental episode that comes in. Um >> that's >> my vision is to build this like authentic media network like that's where I think this is going and this autonomous this autonomous like media operating system basically that um you know could produce sourcer high authoritative content across any major vertical. Um that's the vision. That's that's where I think this is headed. >> Yeah. And I think it's it's interesting because I I mean again as a as a creator yourself, I wonder if you ever had a moment where like there was a a split in your head between like getting excited or getting dystopian about kind of what that future looks like. And it's a conversation that's happening across the uh the content space particularly I think in in journalism just because journalism's been beaten down so much over the years is the idea of a lot of people scared about AI versus optimistic about what it can mean for creators. but for you and kind of where it goes in terms of like customization of content. Uh we were chatting with the uh the co-founder of Netflix who's also a Quintage member the other day kind of talking about how Netflix changed distribution in the way that like okay you can start to produce content and if suddenly the cost to produce content gets a lot cheaper using AI then maybe you could make a lot more custom content that wouldn't get made otherwise and so I would be more in the optimistic camp but for you I mean was there a moment where you're like uh oh or yay that Adam needs to choose here and and I guess I'd say firmly it sounds like you're in the yay Other podcasters have criticized me um destroying the art of being a journalist and they've deliberately ask me do I consider myself a journalist and I don't. I consider myself, you know, a person who is truth seeeking. I like things told for me for what they are. I don't like and I don't like talking heads. It's like I want my information delivered to me in a in a in a in a format that I could trust. And I think there's a lot of unique opportunities that synthetic media could achieve that otherwise humans fall short on in producing media. It's like especially with, you know, leaning into something like the Epstein files or even documenting what's happening in the Middle East right now with Wardesk. It's so politically fueled. There's so many different types of talking heads that belong to larger networks that you don't know what the agenda are, what the agenda is for all these networks that then end up creating the content and then feeds into your algorithm and the media that you watch. And that's fine like all that stuff. It's good to get different perspectives, but you know, where is the information that it can be delivered that's sourcerich that doesn't have a talking head that relies on the facts, looks at the data and just says things for what they are, you know, like what is my takeaway from what I'm from what I'm listening to and doing that in a in an episodic manner where you cannot you could do that across any series, you know, any any vertical for what it's worth. Mhm. >> So for me, the art of like creating this stuff, I'm definitely in that camp of there's definitely unique use cases that synthetic media could could 100% triumph the shortcomings of where you know being a traditional journalist is and I think we should 100% leverage that. And you know the other thing other criticism that I get is in to your question of like which camp do I fall into another journalist you know asked me um you know on on the vein of like am I taking business away from journalists or you know what the future impact is it negative positive it's the same it's the same energy around this type of stuff >> um >> it's um it's like why are you using AI it's like AI defeats the purpose of you know doing something authentic and and I and I go and I ask them it's like so you don't use chat GPT you don't use claude you don't use these things maybe you use it in in the talking head nature of like actually creating the media itself. But what about for your research? You're not here to tell me that you're literally Google searching every source that you're finding to cross reference the facts that you're pulling uh when you're on the field itself. You It's like you're using these tools either behind the scenes. I'm just being more public about them, you know, and taking their abilities to the next level and embracing them to its fullest extent. Cuz I think the other thing is like for when I was producing mint, I didn't like being the bottleneck of the business that I was creating. I if I if I disappear tomorrow, then so does mint, you know, and frankly this is comes just personal to me. I have like bigger goals, you know, bigger ambitions in in doing that. And I wanted to figure out a way to replace myself in that context. And um the Epstein files was like the you know the um I guess the the starting point in doing so. >> Yeah. And kind of I guess as you mentioned I mean the the the rate at which episodes are coming out I think is important for people who haven't looked at it to understand because I think it's it's multiple episodes a day right that are kind of getting published. And so that's kind of >> that's obviously a cadence that most teams, even if you have multiple people on the team, just can't can't match >> um in in the in the amount of numbers that come out. And also, I feel like people who aren't in content, don't really understand how algorithms work on these platforms either, where it's you got to publish things that are going to get consumed, that are going to be watched, that it might be shared. And and I think that that's something that I've also battled with too, Adam, when it comes to like the idea of do people want objective fact or do they not? Do they want to be kind of like told what they want to hear? It's something I haven't answered. We've been doing Coinage 4 years. I'm not entirely sure, but I do think that it is interesting to kind of start to pair these things. And I want to shift into your take on IP because I do think Patreon's kind of proved that there are certainly people who want to patronize the arts or support a creator to like seed the content they want to see in the world. So there is an element of that that I certainly as as the founder of Coin Edge and what we're trying to do with tokenized media get excited about. How do you kind of see the changes in content if you drop production costs and the time and effort that goes into production? How that starts to evolve the other pieces of the creator economy? Have you like started to play around with those ideas too? Um yeah. Um I think the models are only going to be as bad as they are today. It's only going to get better from here on out. Mh. >> And I think um video and audio hasn't had its opus moment. I like to like I like to say like there's life before opus Claude's opus and there's life after Claude's opus. And audio and video hasn't had that revelation yet. You know, that aha moment, that wow moment. And um I'd like to think that there's always going to be a market for humanmade things. And I think that you know I said I'd like to think I actually think that's going to be the case. I mean if you see the way people are are receiving and using AI in the creative field like for example producing movies for example >> that entire industry is is anchored around doing things you know through the lens of being a human. And anytime you try to integrate writing a script with AI or you know coming up with a mood board for AI and if your peers understand that it's like frowned upon you're damned in the community. So I think those types of people will always keep the market alive for more human uh humanmade things and I think uniquely there are things that humans can do in the in the creative arts that maybe AI is yet not equipped to do. Um, and there's things that AI could do that humans are not equipped to do. So, it's not trying to replace and compete with humans on a level of content that they already excel at doing. It's more so finding those unique opportunities like the Epstein files where there's this cop copious amount of data that no human could ever parse through and using technology to create a way to consume it and to get the facts from it. especially for a topic that's so politically fueled, so conspiracy fueled >> and um >> it's like what what is what do the documents show? Like like what does a PDF show? What do the court filings show? Let me see the video from the jail cell. What can I piece together from all these different documents that is context a primary source because they were released from the DOJ for what it's worth. And what does that data show? if I can connect the dots and maybe I can uncover things that the mainstream media won't be able to uncover for weeks at a time because they're doing things so manually as it pertains to their system. >> So I um yeah, I think it's funny because you're seeing humans try to copy AI. Like there's viral videos on Instagram and Tik Tok of humans like recreating the the shitty video model outputs that are you know sometimes we see on our feed like they try to recreate those as humans because that's just entertainment for humans to see humans re copying AI you know so it's like this whole like msh podge of of um creativity I think AI just increases it and there will always be a market for human first creativity you know human human first content >> yeah well I think I mean there that's that's kind of the discussion that's happening now in terms of like creation versus curation and the idea of like sitting at top all these models and basically being the person saying hey look I'm going to do this I'm going to click this button to produce you know XYZ content um and curation seems to be a very hot word in the idea of AI and content worlds uh kind of merging here um but I do want to ask kind of as you see this happening because if it does get easier obviously you took it was a weekend I think it's fair to say in terms of how much time was setting this up using Claude. >> Um, like if it gets easier and it doesn't take Adam a couple days to set this up and everyone else can kind of start to do the same thing. >> Uh, is it kind of like a race to the bottom? What are the key differentiators that are still going to matter? And I think you already I already know the answer. The question is going to be distribution because that's what you've kind of now levered uh with Waresk and building off of it. Distribution is still king, I think. How do you kind of explain that to the other people in in you know what will come when all of this gets a little bit easier to do? >> Curation is the only thing that matters. I mean you Zach and I we compete as humans with other content creators to publish content. So there's an influx of content that that overwhelms our feeds. You know there's no shortage of humans creating content. So, um I think there's going to be better systems for ranking what's quality versus not quality, but attention is still attention is still going to be fed by some sort of entertainment. And that entertainment is going to be probably created through some sort of synthetic tools. Um and they're only going to get better from here on out. So, I'm not too worried about the competition. I think those who have the better taste in curating the right angles and stories and understand what people want to hear and how they want to hear it and deliver it to them the best form factor, those are the people going to win. And that holds true for all the creators that do very well um in today's world. >> That's why I'm not too scared about it either. Um because it just kind of seems like a natural evolution and and again tooling that makes everyone else's job as a as a creator easier. Um, but I will say I guess I was thrown into this as well, and this is where I'll inject my own personal takes into this conversation since uh I don't know if you've been following the Marco Rubio memes, but those have been taking off on X. Uh, and I've enjoyed seeing everyone kind of be able to make those with AI. Uh, it's the it's the scene of him sitting in the oval in the Oval Office and everyone saying Marco Rubio finding out he's got to do XYZ. And I was like, oh, it'd be funny to see Marco as the as the Michelin man. CBS News picked it up, but they just said AI generated. And I'm like, I don't think anyone else had the idea to make Marco Ruby the Michelin man. I want my credit. And >> it raised the question around like, okay, is is is anyone going to get credit in the space if we all just keep using AI. And I guess that that's still an unanswered question just from like a big picture level. Um, >> yeah. >> Like, how do you think about IP rights and IP as as all of this kind of gets levered by AI? >> Oh man, I'm not a lawyer when it comes to this stuff. I'm just creating my imagination. That's that's how I see it. Just like create what comes to mind and the rest will figure itself out. Um, so the lawyers will figure out that stuff and I think there's always going to be value in the the idea space and then executing your ideas and you know, but the legality around it I have I have no idea. But just keep creating. I don't know. Like to your point, you created this Mark Marco Rubio meme. Like keep creating those. like, so what if you're using AI to do so? Um, what ownership entails in in in those memes? I have no idea. And if that was your question, how do you see it? What do you think? >> Well, I think I mean I think it's cool. First of all, it's cool because obviously I am no Photoshop expert. So like me actually making that meme would have would have not happened because it would have been too much effort for the the the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze. But can I prompt that and get it to spit it out? Sure, I'll do that. And I think that it's been fun and part of the reason why that that particular meme format has blown up is because it's it's made it way easier for everybody to do that. So it's survived and lived on almost every news cycle there's a new Marco Rubio uh meme. >> But I do think around like ownership of it. That's where, and this is where I guess you and I can chat about crypto versus this, is that I think it's really cool >> that crypto is like the scarcity factor that is necessary for an infinity factor of like an infinite amount of content can be produced. And so when you pair those, I think, and where I where I'd like to see this next phase of the experiment is like using NFTts to then recapture the value of the meme format of like letting people own this. and me seeing it appear on CBS was mixed emotions. Like, yes, it's cool that my meme has made it to prime time news, but also at the same time, I want credit for it, too. So, I don't know. There's a weird piece to it. Yeah, I think I think remixing the content is definitely going to be an angle, but that it's like there was this uh there's this guy named Saurin who was building titles and I don't know what titles is doing today, but their original vision is, you know, remixing content and creating credentials or a form of verification for who seeded the initial idea of a post and then people remix that post and you could create attribution around that and if there's any sort of money that gets generated from that then it's split across all the remixers, you know, that it it kind of like took to get to the final form factor that then got monetized. I think that's a great use case for crypto and great use case for NFTs. I just don't I I think that's only going to happen once once a big network like Twitter or Instagram or Tik Tok care about attribution on the consumer level and consumers care enough that their content is being remixed so frequently that they're not able to capture that value. There needs to be like an uproar of sorts, you know. Um, and until that happens, that's going to be a use case sunseted on the on the shelf collecting dust. Um, unfortunately, but I do I do think it's a very it's a very clear use case. It's a very clear angle for crypto. Um, and I and I hope it comes to fruition because that'd be really cool if we could add attribution an attribution layer to the internet around all the content that's created and who was the original source like Jacob's horse meme, you know, that went viral and everybody remixed that and then Zora leveraged that by tokenizing it on on their on their protocol with their ERC20 approach back then. So I think um there's definitely an angle for that and uh it's just not a priority in that until people like create the uproar you know till people until you go and enough people like you go be like hey screw you CBS like why didn't you this to me why didn't you it's like it's like adding um like you know when somebody takes a photograph you have to add the person who took the photograph in the image that's like >> that's what you need like that should be a standard in in internet journalism or internet creation in creating memes on the internet you know I don't see how that's any different. Um, >> I would agree and I think it's I mean it's hard to prove. >> I don't know. Yeah, >> it's it's hard to prove. I mean, theoretically, who knows? Someone could have regenerated my AI meme. Someone could have said, "Hey, I want to actually generate Marco Ruby as the Michelin man. I would have said, "Hey, I want to meet that person because they think like me." But, uh, >> but you never know. And I think that that's the kind of piece that that does start to get interesting around like IP and particularly how like normal Hollywood works and the idea of like people sharing points around who owns rights to sequels or whatever derivative works may be made afterwards. But if all of a sudden it gets so easy that you can just click a button and have like a Hollywood box office and I'd be curious to get your take on how far off you think we are from that. Um, but it is kind of interesting to think about the only differentiating factor from uh Adam producing the Epstein files versus me coming along and producing the Epstein files may be like who gets to own pieces of it, which is why I've always thought about like tokenizing ownership over IP is because then you do differentiate from everyone else's. Um, but I don't know if you would agree or disagree with that. >> Um, Yeah, I'm not um I'm not entirely sure um >> cuz like some people don't even know I guess I was reading through the reviews for the Epstein files like some people don't even know it's AI first of all even though it's in the description of the podcast. >> Um so then it's like a factor of like does anyone ever even know that you can own like we've been doing this for four years. Does anyone even know that you can own coinage? Maybe, maybe not. But like there's so many layers to this, >> but it's all gonna change. >> Yeah. I'd like to think that our um I think people like you and I care about owning things and um most of the world rents. Very few people in the world relative to those who rent own. And um yeah, I I don't know if um I think the the ownership model is cool, you know, for uh a select few people like us. And I I think I I I'd like it to see prevail across more folks, but I don't I don't know when would that when that would be the case. Um I'm optimistic that it will be, but it's hard to see the silver lining right now. And um I like the idea of co-owning something, but then you know I think maybe you've done this better than others of like figuring out value attribution across coowners in a compliant way and um in a way that feels right and yeah I don't know what is your how do you see this like why why do you feel like you would want to own let's say a piece of the Epstein files as an example like what what value would that bring to you other than maybe making money for example? Well, that's certainly part of it, but I think like increasingly as as I shift and it's a similar kind of viewpoint is like as you kind of move to the back seat, right, of like being the bottleneck to not being the bottleneck anymore, kind of just being more curator is like fostering a community around it. So like certainly you've attracted a large audience that has a an intense interest in the Epstein files. Maybe not all of those uh million downloads or a million plus downloads are like >> quote unquote super fans or like super Epstein file detectives, but there's probably a good chunk of those that are and probably willing to do more like curation or work or fact-checking before publishing or whatever it may be. And so like I don't know around our theory of media was always this next evolution of breaking down the wall between content creator and audience to kind of create a flywheel where they're all aligned. And so I think yeah, certainly if I were if I were a super fan of any one of these shows, whether it's the Epcene Files, War Desk, if I could throw my hat into the ring, not just as kind of an investor who wants to ride that ride, um, but also maybe play an active role, I think it it's it's one way to crowdfund and get things off the ground. Um, because I don't know how much time you might have for show three, four, five, and and however more there are out there. Um, but it's also just a key differentiator from like if we do get to the point where anyone can kind of create competing shows and it's already like exponential in terms of the written word and to your point I think video is getting there. What that starts to look like in terms of having like a real celebrity human attached to it and someone that you want to support versus just like AI and just not being attached to humans at all. And I think there is a differentiator there if you have like a community of shared ownership and interest versus just slop on the other side. And so I I think we're going to be in this weird phase at least maybe until we get to like the full I don't care moment, but like certainly people care right now uh around these these fears of AI slop. Um so I think there's definitely like this weird phase that we'll probably be in where it's like what's the differentiator between that show and this show. Yeah, there's um another guy creating another Epstein Files podcast um that he was in no way a point of reference when I was creating mine. you know, I kind of only saw his after I published mine and he's been documenting this stuff for months before me and he's been it's another AI podcast, he just I think he cloned his voice, but um while I respect the hustle and um for some reason mine performed better than his, you know, and he posts three to four times a day, he has I think sometimes longer episodes like he had everything that's AI generated, you know, but it has like I I think three stars, 3.4 stars at the time for whatever number that ring that for whatever reason that number rings in my head. And Epstein Files, you know, balances between 4.1 4.7 stars and um was produced at a shorter amount of time with less episodes. Um and that AI slop ended up performing better than his AI slop. And um although I don't consider my my stuff slopp like I think I would argue that there's craftsmanship in that and um there's a lot of intention and there's a lot of curation in that. So and I and I I do everything from a place of you know what would I like? That's always the the the factor I measure. It's like what do I care about? What do I like? If this came up on my timeline, how would I want to hear it and perceive it? If I was obsessed with a with a particular topic and I want to consume, you know, 30 plus episodes on it, what does every single episode need to look like and feel like? And what would I need to be able to trust this episode, you know? And there's a lot of like um there's a lot of roots in crypto that I feel like I took to trying to create a headless media uh uh product, you know, that just autonomous autonomously produces because it needs to feel trustless in a way the same way crypto should feel trustless. And I want media to feel trustless in that you could verify it just like you can verify crypto with math. You know, you don't need to trust people anymore. And I think that that right there is like the um the differentiator between creating media as a human and as a traditional media company and a big international conglomerate to a guy in his room with Claude trying to you know produce something and reveal the truth because the truth is worth revealing. Well, you've landed. I mean, that's partially why I called my startup trustless media around it, too, is like, okay, what does it look like if like if we if we get into that world, but but I do think we kind of glossed over it because like there is your your fingerprint on like the way that you do this in in like everything you design to create these episodes, too. So, it's like >> I think it'd be it'd be bad on my part to like overlook the work that went into framing it because you probably designed it in a way that like this is exactly the output I want, which will look distinct from someone else. um which I guess is always going to be there at least to produce content that's going to be good. >> Yeah. My problem is that I overthink and I'm over intentional with everything I do. And that could be my Achilles heel and it could always also work in my favor. And um I'm I'm very much of of a perfectionist to the extent where I can be. But I try not I try not to make it as a as a um you know as a as a as a way for it to hold me back either. So for me it's like ship something ship it as quick as possible. It's like apply the lean startup method to content. >> Ship it. See what people like. Iterate. Like there's been episodes that I've published that I've republished you know because it got bad feedback. So, I had to regenerate the episode using the community's feedback and then uploaded a new a new episode accordingly, you know, and um so it's like it's like that's why I'm like I'm thinking about media and new series and IP as a product as if I'm serving an audience and it feels like the the I don't know. It feels like the right way to create media. It feels like this is the thing that media was missing all along. Yeah. It's this this feedback loop that you can iterate on ways to improve the product that you're delivering to listeners and do it in a way where it's completely engineered and programmatic and um >> and the right thing. >> Yeah. >> And yet somehow original in the way that it is done. And I I would agree it's that's that's partially like the idea of breaking down the wall between content creator and audience. And coming from traditional media as well, by the way, is just sitting in the anchor seat constantly just talking at a camera and hoping that the people watching it on the other side, even when I was at CNBC and Yahoo, is just like you have no feedback loop and you don't really know. >> Um, but suddenly all this technology has made it quite possible. And so it's it's fascinating to see, man, because you kind of did it first. Uh, and so congratulations on the way that it's blown up and the way that you've pioneered this because I think, you know, when we started the company four years ago, AI wasn't really talked about as much and certainly no one was using it to create content as quickly or or with as much success. I think it's been it's been pretty awesome to to watch. But I guess to to close, h how quick do you think that we will get to the point uh that that we may see like mainstream? I mean, I'm going to call this mainstream because it's a top podcast, but like in in film and like everything else that we're seeing play out right now, like there are AI musicians that are topping the charts, too. So, like maybe we're already there, >> but >> how much more common do you think this will be? >> Yeah, I think it's uh it's already common. I think I'm late to the game, frankly. Um I think um as early as I feel to the game, I also feel late to the game. And I feel late to the game because all this AI content originally stemmed on Instagram and Tik Tok and um there's all these random AI generated series um and random shows and you know political memes that bring back Charlie Kirk and Netanyahu and Trump and Obama and like you have you all see these random memes of like people interacting in in an environment that you'd never traditionally see humans interact in, you you know, so this AI slop and Sora now shutting down, >> I don't know. It's like I feel like I'm I'm late to the game in a way as early as I feel to the game. >> So, I think we're just getting started. And my uh yeah, be be the expert in the room. Spend money and subscribe to anything and everything. Try everything to the point where you feel like you could teach a three-hour plus seminar on the underlying topic. And don't be afraid of it. Embrace it. Don't come from a place of it will replace you. Use it as a tool to enhance you. Uh these tools allow you to 10x your strengths and fill in the holes for what your weaknesses would otherwise be if you didn't have these tools. And use that framing to your advantage versus let it you and let you become the victim of what it's going to take away from you. Um and um I think with that mentality, the world is your oyster. and uh and you're off to the races. I don't know. That's that's how I live my life. You know, it's a very very you know best. >> No, I think that's a great place to leave it. I think it's again in this everyone's kind of having these these realization moments and I think it's a good uh form of advice to close on. But uh but Adam Levy, can't thank you enough for coming on, man. And congrats with the Epstein Files war desk and and looking forward to what else you're able to do with it. >> Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.