I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and when we first sat down with Andrew Loney, I thought we'd be chronicling a single scandal an errant prince, a disastrous interview, a few ill judged friendships. But across four conversations with the historian, it became clear that Prince Andrew's undoing is not a subplot. It's the spine of a much larger story about power, protection and a monarchy struggling to outrun its own blind spots. Andrew Loney, with his unmatched reporting on the House of York, pulled us deeper each time from the blistering portrait of Prince Andrew's secret deals and his entanglements with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell to the extraordinary account of the Princess Royal defrocked, and the whispered plans for quiet escape to the Middle East. Then came the most surreal twist of all credible claims that Epstein had tried to hire a British sniper to assassinate Andrew, an allegation so operatic it would sound absurd if it hadn't been echoed by multiple sources. And finally, Loney returned to map a royal family in full scale crisis, a corruption scandal widening by the week, a monarchy facing its most perilous moment since the abdication. And the Queen and Prince Philip, who never saw her. Perhaps they never wanted to see what was actually going on. So stay with us. This episode brings together our most revealing, unsettling and frankly shocking interviews with Andrew Loney. If you think you know this story, you really don't. Not yet. Andrew Loney, very good to see you. I want to say that we were friends years ago before I left for America. And you have gone on to an incredible career as an author ever since your latest book entitled On Prince Andrew has caused a storm. I think it's fair to say in the UK, Prince Harry, as I guess we call him now, vehemently denied. But I want to discuss the denial with you. One accusation in the book that he hit Prince Andrew on the nose after Prince Andrew insulted Meghan Markle. But let's start at the beginning. What made you decide to write about Prince Andrew? Well, it's a third of a trilogy of books on royal marriages, so the first was on the buttons, Louis and Edwina. My button. Open marriage. But a very happy marriage. Then I looked at the great love story of the 20th century. Or was it the Duke and Duchess of Windsor? And then I want to look at the happiest divorced couple in the world to see if that was true. The other advantage was there had been actually nothing on either Andrew or Sarah Ferguson. Really at all. And of course, you've been in the news, with the Epstein disclosures. And I thought they were both very interesting characters, both to look at them through the prism of their marriage. But also to look at their activities, which I'd already suspected of leverage their position as royals to make private money. And that's that, in fact, is the story of the book is really a story of financial corruption at the heart of the royal family as much as a story about sexual peccadilloes. So let's just remind everybody, Prince Andrew was Queen Elizabeth's second son. So he's, he's third in the line of children that she had. There was Prince Charles, who's obviously now King Charles. Princess. And then there's a ten year age gap, and then there's Prince Andrew. Correct. And then following in his wake as Prince Edward. That's right. Born in 1960, part of the second family. Always very, very much the Queen's favorite son, and very different from his three siblings. Much more sort of boisterous, much more Germanic in many ways. Oh, and, you know, it's extraordinary to see the difference between the siblings. I mean, he people were saying to me that actually in childhood he demonstrated all the same traits of naivete, stupidity, arrogance, pomposity. He's been searching for an identity all his life, and the only identity has really is as a member of the royal family. And so this was an accident waiting to happen. And the accident, of course, was meeting Jeffrey Epstein and getting involved with him. But actually, it's a bigger story. It's about, I suppose, the way the royal family has protected someone, from, I would say, criminal activity. And, it says quite a lot about our society and our very deferential approach to the royal family. So, of course, Prince Andrew, since his fateful interview with the BBC, has basically been ushered out of public life. Correct? I mean, he really doesn't have a public role as a prince now. He went on to make a $12 million arrangement with a Virginia Giuffre money that his mother had to pay on his behalf. And he's really disappeared from public view. How damaging, do you think his influence has been on the royal family? And will this book add to that? Yeah, I think he's been hugely damaging. I mean, you look at all the polls. I mean, he always comes very low. And if you look at the comments in any of the articles about him, you know, they're very, very vicious about him. And indeed about his ex-wife was Sarah Ferguson. I mean, she is, I think that the darling of New York at times and she's sort of worked her way back in, but I think he's never quite recovered from the famous Newsnight interview in November 2019, when he made all sorts of wild claims, which were easily disproved. I'm hoping the dull shifts as a result of this book. I mean, other journalists have come forward and seem prepared to relate stories that they knew which back up what I'm saying, which they hadn't talked about before. An interesting piece in the Telegraph yesterday. Briefed, I think, by the Palace saying that they need to get their act together, and they should be looking at even removing titles from Andrew, moving him from being Council of State. No longer being a member of the Knights of the Garter, alleges Payton to actually remove his designation as the Prince. And so this is quite serious stuff. And I think the feeling is they need to cut off the limb before he infects the whole of the institution. I hope in some ways this is a this is only a side issue that is going to lead to greater accountability and transparency from the royal family, particularly on their finances. The book is filled with, accounts of the palace lying to the media about events, trying to put pressure on them to shut down stories. Leaking stories of negative stories about particular journalists or, indeed, I discovered leaking stories against each other as members of the royals. And there needs to be just, you know, just behave properly and then you will earn our respect and then we might be prepared to pay for you. So reading through the book every now and then, I would gasp at some of the, of the bigger allegations. And I want to get into his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and his relationship with Donald Trump. But before we do, why don't you outline for us the biggest sort of corruption at the heart of this? Well, I think the thing that most shocked me was that how brazen Andrew was. I mean, he was as a special trade representative between 2001 and 2011. He was meant to be promoting British trade. He was a civil servant. He was paid by the taxpayer, and yet he was going off and doing business for himself. He was bringing his own, mates like Jeffrey Epstein and a particular business adviser called David Rollins, and actually getting investors to shoehorn meetings in into his schedule to meet these people, to do private business, and various court cases and other legal depositions have revealed how he was taking commission on deals. For example, Greek water companies, which had nothing to do with his role as a trade ambassador. And he knew he was protected when things were reported back to either the palace or to number ten Downing Street, there was a sort of embarrassed silence, and people said, we just don't go there. And so he knew impunity. And the shocking thing was to discover that this was supported by other members of the royal family, the Queen, not only turned a blind eye, she actually colluded with this, entertaining some of these people, like the president of Azerbaijan, accepting gifts from them. And basically shutting down any stories that might reflect badly on her son. And that, I think, is extraordinary. Have you spoken to them since the book has come out? How have they approached you? And what have you heard from Prince Andrew? I mean, the levels of his greed and his wife's ex-wife's avarice. This, are really sort of breathtaking. And so too is what you sense the, the lack of agency that his aides have around him to stop him from doing this. You sense that any time they lean, they're all talking among themselves, saying this isn't acceptable. And yet they're unable to stop him. Yes. I mean, I think because the buck stops with the Queen. You know, I know that Christopher Knight, who was the Queen's private secretary, was the man eventually responsible for making sure that Andrew stepped down in 2011, mainly because of the Epstein revelations, not so much because of his work as trade envoy. I mean, he just because, you know, gave up, he said there's no point. He told one one of my sources, reporting any of this stuff. So, you know, the King Charles knew about it. King Charles tried to prevent him getting the job and tried to keep him in the Navy even longer, because he knew it would be a bad recipe to have him swanning around the world, being able to to do private business. But the thing continued. Even when he was kicked out in 2011, he was still marching, doing trips on behalf of the government to places like China. And then he set up something called pitch at the Palace, which was meant to be a sort of Dragon's den, operation to bring investors and entrepreneurs together, all done as a charity, done under the auspices of the Royal palaces, with the Queen presence and the Grenadier Guards introducing the, the event. And yet at the same time, he set up something called pitch at Palace Global, where he was insisting on a 2% cut of any investment that came in. And this is what was making him quite a lot of money. And this is what he was doing with some ten. The Chinese spy, the pitch. The palace was then developed in China with with Chen Bo being his front man. MPs were calling for the National Crime Agency to look into Andrew 20 years ago, and nothing was done. And it's time that actually they did do something. So is there an argument that all members of the royal family, they are property rich and that they all get houses, but actually they don't really have an income to survive, and they're expected to swarm around and talk to diplomats. And they have a very sort of high lifestyle, but actually they don't really have a way of funding it. And the Queen was notoriously stingy to. You know, well, I don't buy the arguments. It was funds and they passed money down. Andrew probably inherited money from the Queen mother and it's all past generations before. So I and, you know, he was able to afford a huge, 40 million pound chalet in Switzerland. His wife has just bought two, 4 million pound houses in Belgravia, giving her a, rental of 250,000 pounds a year. So I don't think they're short of cash. And, there's a difference between the members. The royal family, who are not working royals. Like, for example, Princess Margaret's son, Lord Snowdon, who has a genuine business. He's a chairman of Christie's. He's a wood maker, woodwork maker, furniture maker, and runs a business. And that's perfectly fine. No one has criticized him. It's when they use their royal status to make money as brand ambassadors and Fergie. So Fergie, Fergie was very blatant about this. I mean, the collections are called the Duchess collection. She calls herself the Duchess of York. So she's not been married to and for 30 years. She talks about things in royal purple. You know, it's just sort of shameless. Well, and in a way, it's the it's the foreshadowing of what happened to Meghan Markle, too, isn't it, that they saw this as a business opportunity, which, in fact, you're not allowed. You're simply not allowed to take advantage of? Absolutely. In some ways, Sarah Ferguson, who was the role model for Meghan Markle? The difference is that Sir Ferguson has a bit of charm. And Meghan Markle really doesn't have that and doesn't truly isn't quite as savvy. So it's certainly true that Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson were both social magnets in New York, and obviously the person that used them the most to validate his social status and his financial status was Jeffrey Epstein. What can you tell us about when they met and what the nature of their relationship was? And there are some fascinating revelations in the book, not least Jeffrey Epstein saying that Prince Andrew was even more sex obsessed than he was. I think there's a quote of him saying, I'm a perv. But but Prince Andrew is much worse than I am. He's the king of kink. Was the term. Andrew claims that he met Epstein in 1999. His own private secretary routes times, pointing out that it actually met him in the early 1990s. Steve Hoffenberg, who, of course, was very close to Epstein, says it was 1991. And, I think what it discovered was not only. Can we just contextualize who Steve Hoffenberg was because he ran the Ponzi scheme that Jeffrey Epstein worked with, was a partner alongside Steve Hoffenberg, ends up going to jail, Jeffrey Epstein manages to get out of it and takes a lot of the money, which you say in the book he spent on himself. And what I found was the relationship began earlier than they claim. It lasted much longer and it was much deeper. I think the the other thing that I found surprising was that there were more numbers for Sarah Ferguson in the black books, and there were four, actually. Andrew. So, as we know, Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump were close friends for many years. Can you talk about the relationship between Prince Andrew, Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. Well, I mean, certainly Donald Trump and, Andrew were close. They they moved in very much the same circles. They had the same interests in golf, money and sex. One of the diplomats, the New York consulate, said that Andrew was always, hanging around the consulate, basically looking to do things, trying to bring Epstein in on any of his business trips. And, I mean, they were shot in the embassy when they were caught, overheard talking about some one of Trump's favorite words, pussy. And Trump was swapping a list of masseuses with Andrew that he could use when he came to New York. So, I mean, it was a pretty buddy buddy relationship. Andrew Trump, of course, though Trump has denied knowing anything about Andrew. I mean, there's plenty of photographic evidence with them together. In New York in my Largo and elsewhere and indeed in London. So, I mean, again, you know, they're all distancing themselves, but they were all part of the same little group. And they're pictures of Andrew with Trump and Epstein. And so I don't think anyone can deny the these people were extremely close. But in a particular period, beginning of the century. Andrew, just hold on one second while we take these messages. I'm trying to close up The Daily Beast and. I'm Michael. Wolff. And where are we going, Michael? Inside Trump's head. Woo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo! How often are we going? Twice a week. Wherever you get your podcasts. Apple, Spotify and of course, you can watch us on YouTube in the Daily Beast feed. Subscribe now. Michael, are we ever going to come out from Trump's head? I think we may not. I think the entire country may never come out of Donald Trump's. So Andrew also had an on off again relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell, didn't he, who was also having an on off again relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, who she would often refer to as her boyfriend. But talk a little bit about Ghislaine Maxwell's role in facilitating some of this. And supplying Andrew with, let's say, never ending entertainment. Well, I think Ghislaine is the person who drew Andrew clearly into the net. She could see the advantages for Epstein of having someone in his position and prestige. You know, it would really help Epstein. He she could see the vulnerabilities of Andrew and how his greed and his sex addiction. So he was easy picking and they'd sort of known each other for a while. And she was an enabler for for Epstein and indeed for Andrew. And there was this weird three way relationship. Epstein got a sort of kick from his girlfriend also being involved with with Andrew. Andrew and Glenn were involved in business ventures together, particularly in Thailand and Malawi. So they were all very, very closely entwined. Sarah Ferguson was worried about the relationship. She tried to distance Glenn. She tried to get people like Lynn Forrester and Evelyn de Rothschild to actually lend him their flat in New York so that Andrew could Tim could stay there rather than with Epstein and get him away from from the clutches of Epstein, though she herself, I would say, was very much within the clutches of Epstein on financial terms. So, yeah, it's it's it's a very odd story. And Glenn, I think, you know, played played Andrew in a big way. And he kind of fell for it because and they had this on off relationship that the, people at the security post at Buckingham Palace said that they know she was a frequent visitor, overnight visitor to Buckingham Palace. He refused to sign her in. They knew her well. Friends of Glenn have talked about the relationship, particularly at the beginning of, it was around 2000, but it was an on off thing. And that's one of the signs with Andrew. He never has any long, sustained relationships with women, but he has an awful lot of sort of woman in Port City sort of comes to and goes from and uses women in a big way. And this is this isn't a man who loves women. It's the man who who sees how women can be useful to him. Well. One of the most fascinating, moments in the book is when he goes to Thailand and you describe him having an orgy. And it should be said, there are all sorts of people in the book commenting on the number of women that Andrew goes through. And on this particular weekend, he appears to go through about 40 women in literally in the period of a weekend, and you've got a hotel staff describing the women as one came out, another one would go in fresh meat, as it were. Absolutely. And then then he swapped them with an Arab prince in the. This favored girls would be passed on. But this information comes in with people on the record. A Reuters correspondent, a diplomat who was there and in fact a member of the diet aristocracy. And one of the extraordinary things that the Thai told me was that her driver got very friendly with Andrew's driver. And it wasn't only girls that were being brought to, to to him, but also young men. The Thailand story is extraordinary because here he was on official trips very openly, having these prostitutes brought to him. And in fact, he had a mistress in Thailand that he actually had in his car, that he would take around when he went off on particular official trips. And she would then go and sit somewhere and wait for her, boyfriend to come and pick her up. I mean, it's extraordinary. You know how open he was about his behavior? One of the private secretaries, one of the center. He had all series of requirements where he went on these trips. He wanted access to teapots and Weetabix, and, he had a man bringing his some sort of, but, what they thought was an, an ironing board to on his some, his clothes. But he also, one of the diplomats was, was told, well, he likes blonds. Can you lay on some blonds for him? And the diplomat said, I'm a, I'm a diplomat. I'm not a pimp. And but, you know, they were just really open. He went to the hotels to stay rather than the residence so that he could bring these woman in, without any form of scrutiny. Yeah, it's an astonishing story. He's also very obsessed about his title, isn't he? Funnily enough, I have a friend, a British friend, staying with me at the moment who's, run across him on occasion and says that he's emphatic about, referring to the Queen as the Queen. And she was at a table where someone joked and said, oh goodness, Andrew, your mother would be very amused by this. I think the anecdote was and he said, do you mean the Queen? And then someone else had referred to his grandmother, don't you? What do you mean? The Queen mother? And he's sort of obsessed and grandiose about using official titles. Absolutely. And I have several stories. I mean, he's very rude to a man called David Anderson, who was a long term employee at Hillsborough for calling the Queen mother the Queen. I think the Queen that the Queen mother, and he wants to fit the proper title. And there are plenty of stories of him, we can parties insisting when he comes down to breakfast that everyone stands up and says, good morning, sir. I mean, he has nothing to rely on in terms of his own personality, so he relies on his status. You're so withering, I should say you're so withering. And he also seems to be on a very short fuze. I mean, I mean, we all saw the video of Prince Charles furious with the pen when it started leaking, and the royal family, particularly the man. And this is also said of, Prince Harry actually, that they have very short tempers and it's sort of 0 to 60 in 0.5 of a second, and then they calm down and immediately start trying to appease for the short temper. And that's a pattern in the book about Andrew. Yes. I mean, there are lots of stories of him losing his temper. And, he kind of based himself on Prince Philip, who was quite accusatory in his approach to people. Rather than draw them out, he would sort of challenge them. And he has his very Brooks can rather bluff sort of naval manner. And he barks orders. And there's not a great deal of emotional intelligence there dealing with people. I mean, I wonder if there's some sort of Tourette syndrome because he does such bizarre things. So, yeah, I mean, you know, the status is is all he has. I mean, you know, people, people talk about, you know, one moment he's he's making rude jokes and the next he's asking you to call him the Duke of York. A girlfriend said that when he darts on tables, he. He still wants to be called the Duke of York. So people can never quite know, you know, where to draw the line. And, as long as people. The Navy's talked about this, he, you know, he's put on his princess hat. So instead of being just a regular guy and he'd switch from it almost immediately. You know, they were just joking about something as as naval colleagues. And then he would insist on on this his, his, his royal being, being recognized. So it's a sign of a very insecure man. It's not a sign of of a strong man. So in Jeffrey Epstein, both Prince Andrew and his ex-wife Sarah Ferguson found a financial godfather who used him as social bait and they used him as a cash machine. Then we have the accusations from Virginia Giuffre that she had been sex trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein and by Glenn Maxwell to Prince Andrew in London. When she's there, they she has the story of getting to tramp, meeting him, dancing, then they go back to Ghislaine Maxwell's apartment in Belgravia, where Virginia Giuffre has sex with Prince Andrew. And at that stage, she's at the age of 17. I believe. We then have eventually Jeffrey Epstein dies. And as you have said, suspicious circumstances. Ghislaine Maxwell gets sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking. And her trial is extraordinary because it seems that she's every bit as guilty as Jeffrey Epstein of running a network of, of underage girls who are abused by both Dylan and Jeffrey Epstein and then Prince Andrew goes on to do the interview on BBC's Newsnight with Emily Maitlis, where he thinks he's going on to salvage his reputation. And in fact, he just digs himself into a grave in plain sight on television. Can you talk to us a little bit about the run up to that interview? How he emerged out of it initially thinking he'd done a great job, and then his surprise at the fall out? Well, he was only switched to the interview by Amanda Thirsk. Everyone else warned him not to do the interview or if he did do the interview, there should be a prescribed limits to it. It should be short. He should clearly be well briefed. There is a little bit in the book about doing the NewsHour interview, and Emily Maitlis has become famous and she did a very good job. Did Prince Andrew think he'd done a good job? Yes. I mean, he did. I mean, the you know, one of the crews came up at the end and said, well done, sir. He was very happy to, to walk you through with, with Emily Maitlis afterwards. And I think because he has all these sycophants around him, he thinks he's, he's done a great job. And this is one of those problems. He has very little sort of sense of self-awareness and very few people around him who he will listen to, who will speak truth to him. I mean, this was a problem in the Navy. Anyone who basically tried to to lick him into shape and tell him, you know, what the reality was about his naval career found their naval career was curtailed, and the people who sucked up to him found their careers flourished. So this is, you know, the big problem, a protection officer, one of protection officers told me that, I said, well, why didn't anyone report any of this behavior? And he said, well, we were given a choice. We could stay, in this job. Well paid with first class travel, or we were given the option of going back on the beach in Brixton. Which would you prefer? And so, you know that the. He was just protected all the way through there was no one who was, frankly, looking out for him. And it doesn't seem to be even his own family. Right. And I was going to say, I mean, just talk a little bit more about his relationship with the Queen. He was always rumored to be the favorite son. Yes. He was the favorite son. He made her laugh. It always. She's always indulged him. And that relationship to the. I think she felt protective of him, that he was perhaps in some ways the most vulnerable. He was the one who wasn't sort of happily settled when the others were, and of course, had been lots of rumors about Portchester being, and his father. I mean, people have shown this, facial resemblances between him, particularly the current Lord Porchester, who's the same age as Andrew. And, people whose opinion I respect with hold that view. I'm not sure of a about it. I didn't mention it in the book, but I certainly have had stories. I've been researching Prince Philip now from people, one of the lovers of Prince Philip, who said that certainly the Queen was very close to Porchester. They used to visit Kentucky. A lot. And it's very likely she thinks that they had some sort of affair. But I think it's very hard for for us to believe that the Queen, who had this strong sense of public duty, would be so foolish as to do that. But who knows what goes on in a marriage? It does seem incredibly risky thing to to to do. It does. So the just talk talks. So. So can you talk to us about the fallout of the, Newsnight interview? And really, Andrew's beginning to really fall from grace, the settlement that he came up with and what he's doing now. Well, I you know, that Newsnight really was a pivotal point. I mean, I think it involves Virginia Giuffre to bring her case. I think it just exposed him for what he was. I mean, just such blatant lies. It look ridiculous. I know that Philip summoned him to Sandringham and said, basically, the show's over now. And, they realized they had to do something, that this was reputational damage. And but he's still he's still a Knight of the Garter. I think he's still a Vice-Admiral. He's still a councilor of state. So, you know, he didn't lose everything. And the Queen certainly showed his support for him. She, you know, would go riding with them, stick them in the car, going to Balmoral or going to church, but to Balmoral. But the whole thing has unraveled. He hasn't helped himself by refusing to cooperate with any of the American authorities investigating this. He tried to Dutch the summons by going up to Balmoral. And, you know, I don't quite know what the the advice, the what the reasoning was behind this because of course, it looked awful. And of course, he never seemed to show any sort of regret for the behavior or any sort of concern about the victims, which didn't play very well. So the whole thing began, you know, Duke really changed. And, you know, clearly when the judge decided there was a case there and it would go to court, he was in a difficult position. I mean, they've pretended that, because the Queen's Platinum Jubilee, something had to be done. But I think all the people I talked to said that he was between a hard and a rock place and the least worst option was to settle rather than to go to court. No one I've talked to believes that he is innocent. And of course, that situation has got worse as of the fresh disclosures have been made in the various depositions, not least the links with ten. Was that the Chinese spy? I should say that 1010 is not the only spy associated with them. So he was very naive. And, why people didn't warn him, why MI6 didn't sort of steer him away. I just don't know, because they were certainly investigating these people. But perhaps they did. And he didn't listen, because one of the consistent themes throughout the book is how he knows more than everybody else. He is Prince Andrew, he is Your Royal Highness, and everybody else is lesser than, if you were King Charles and you read this book, what would you think? Gosh, what are we going to do? And, I would summon my my various people, perhaps even the members, the family. And then they're all up to Balmoral now. I mean, it all seems to happen in August in Balmoral for old Fergie was there with the toe sucking at the same time. Yeah, of course it's when Diana died and. Not as I. Exactly. No. It's extraordinary. So I think I would say that we've got to get a grip on this and we need to get ahead of the narrative, and we need to address some of the allegations that have been made. I don't I think we need to, actually distance ourselves from Andrew. I think we need to clearly, people are calling for blood, and we need to to offer them something. And I think and a wider picture, we need to, for example, say we're going to be more open about our, financial affairs. We are going to perhaps set up this royal register. We are going to agree to, perhaps a parliamentary inquiry into his time. A special representative, kind of pass the buck to someone else, and, and say, you know, not not our problem mates, you know, but we are not standing up for him. He doesn't have actually, it seems to me representatives, he's certainly not commenting on any piece. Buckingham Palace are not commenting on any of these pieces. And so he kind of being left to dangle of it, and, you know, I think maybe they're watching to see how things play, what the public reaction is. But from judging from the comments at the bottom of articles, people feel very strongly, about what's been happening. And certainly people have been volunteering me further stories to add to the paperback of other things that both he and Sarah Ferguson have been up to. It's fascinating as an anecdote about his 40th birthday, and you make the point that neither the Queen nor Prince Philip, nor Prince Charles, as well as then, Princess Anne or Prince Edward. So the senior royals, as you refer to them, attend his 40th birthday, largely because they believe that Sarah Ferguson, from whom he's been divorced at this point for a couple of years, is actually selling stories or giving stories about them to the press. And you just think, what must it be like to be living in a family like that? Yeah, I know, it's like a medieval court. It is. Well, it is like a medieval court. Yeah. No, I think it must be very difficult. Who do you trust? And you can see why they have these lifelong friends who they feel that they can trust. And, and it's ironic that the people who are most likely to betray their trust are actually people within the family as opposed to to, you know, staff and others. So, yeah, it must be awful. And I think they're caught because in some ways, you need to keep Andrew and Sarah inside because you know, who knows it when the the themes of the book is as how they're constantly threatening to to spill the beans. So they've got to keep them onside, but they don't want to keep them too close. So, and of course, Sarah is very adept at playing with the media. I think what's very interesting is to see that Andrew is as passed on his ambitions to his daughters and the PR push at the moment, as the daughter should be made to working royals. They can't cope and the slimmed down monarchy and they would fail the bill. They're doing wonderful work with their charities, etc. but I'm afraid the daughters are pretty deeply implemented in the whole sad story of the family, and I think that they would be unwise to, to to put them too much in the public eye. So King Charles, as we know, is living with cancer. At some point, Prince William will ascend to the throne. What would your advice be to Prince William as he thinks about the future of the House of Windsor, and how it maintains its relevance and, frankly, its survival? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think he has he's thought about this a lot. I mean, I think, you know, he he wants clear, slimmed down monarchy. He wants is back to the old tradition of looking up to them, you know, behaving very well. It's clearly focused around the family we have, you know, they're very adept at at promoting the family image and the fact that there is a line of succession there. And I would distance, you know, all those people on the periphery, keep an an Edward, you know, doing their good works, perhaps bring in the old person to to fill in. But I think the deputy lieutenants should be doing more of the work the royals are doing. Who's an interesting report the other day showing that actually, royals don't add much to the fundraising for charities. And certainly the research that I saw on both Andrew and Sarah Ferguson was that they actually had a negative effect. People were actually keen to distance themselves. English National Ballet couldn't wait to get rid of Andrews as a, as his patron. And I think they they have to be more open, as I keep saying about their finances. And be open to freedom, information requests and parliamentary scrutiny, all these things that they shy away from. And I think they need to have a more honest relationship with the press and not play our favorites in the royal rota. They need to, to, to, to, to sort of just be, be open and straight with everyone and then they will earn respect. And then I think they can survive. But I do think I agree with you. I think the future is is the real problem. And I say that as a monarchist, I want them to survive. And you might say I'm not doing my bit to help them, but, I think we need the stuff to come out because it's it's it needs to be addressed. Well, it's hard to think of a more establishment author than yourself in many ways, Andrew. Which is which is. Well, which is why. Which is why the book is so interesting. So I just I just want to clarify one thing. You've heard nothing from Prince Andrew or Buckingham Palace since the publication of your book. No. And nor have my publishers, at least when I spoke to them this afternoon. So, I know talking to one of the girlfriends that she has been trying to get him to fight back, but he refuses. He kind of just takes the punches. I mean, I'm sure I will be getting a letter from Sarah Ferguson, but of course, the book hasn't gone out yet, so, we're all talking about it, and the press has seen it, but some, you can't buy a copy yet, so I suspect once they're gone through it, and once they monitor my social media and interviews, I'm sure there'll be a long letter coming. So just for people watching the podcast or listening to the podcast, when does the book actually appear? It appears on Thursday. So this is the 14th on Thursday. Right. And you start dual publication in the UK and the US. Yes. Will, in the English language in at the same time. Absolutely. Australia, Canada, the law. And finally just tell people how difficult it was. What were some of the obstacles you came across in trying to write a book? It's always difficult writing a book about the royals, but I think you came across, more obstacles than most. Well, it's always difficult to, to get people to talk about the royals, particularly on the record. So that was one challenge getting people to I mean, just even ambassadors feel that they're Her Majesty's ambassador. They have to be loyal to her. I mean, I did, seek cooperation from them, from the couple to see if they wanted to help shape the narrative by talking to to, to them for getting the friends to talk to me. They they didn't think about this, or Sarah did and then decided not to. But I then found that when I was interviewing some people literally halfway through the interview, that they would get a text saying, you know, basically don't talk to him. We had, intimidating letters sent, before the book was published. We had threats of, that they were monitoring my social media and watch it, the Foreign Office forbade ambassadors to talk to me. I had for years of putting in FOIA requests to the Foreign Office and forms of business, and basically all of them being batted back. And, there have been clearly attempts to sort of undermine the credibility of the book and my authority as a writer, even in the last week. So it's it's gloves off. I need Harry on my side. Really? Here. But, Yeah. No, I mean, you know, and I think this is, you know, they say never complain, never explain. But, of course, there's a very sophisticated relationship between some of the tame press fed their pieces and the palace and, and, you know, that's clearly going to come into play. Andrew, in your reporting of this book, which took four years, what most surprised you about Prince Andrew? Well, I think just the brazenness with which he, leveraged his role to make money for himself personally, shoehorning people into official meetings who were working for him, the fact the Queen sort of allowed this, in fact, colluded with it. And I think just the, the, the sort of extravagance of, of of Sarah Ferguson spending and his own sexual, addiction, just to sheer numbers of people and his behavior. Well. The book is, unputdownable. And I think a devastating portrait of a modern prince who perhaps felt he didn't have a role, tried to carve out a role, and instead got used by other people to his detriment. How do you think it ends for Andrew? Well, it's a good question. I mean, I think he's going to just quietly drift from view. He he will be there going to family events. I think away from the camera. You know, he's now a retired man. He can live the life of retired man. He goes shooting, he plays golf. He sits and watches videos, and I think he's going to have a pretty quiet life. In fact, under house arrest. Can't see it changing, but he may he he's he's he's such a a character who can't really sort of see the what's really happening to him. He may well just continue his business activities and think he can get away with it. And the whole thing will go quiet for a while, and he'll be fine to carry on as he was. I think the interesting question is how it will affect Sarah Ferguson, who has another volume of memoir coming out this year which will no doubt talk about her cancer and charity work and and how far attitudes towards her have changed, as a result of the book. I mean, I think that's the the interesting question, Andrew. Thank you very much. Good luck with the book. And, it's hard not to read it and just think, what a waste of privilege. And what a waste of two lives. Yeah. What a man who had everything at his fingertips without the awful dread of ascending to the throne. So the incredible advantages of being a royal without the actual ultimate responsibility of being the monarch, and yet he's been unable to use his life usefully. Is actually, I mean, in some ways, I think being a fair is great. You know, they complain about it, but it is it is a tragic story, you know, a man brought down by hubris. Andrew, thank you very much. Good luck with the book. Andrew Loney, welcome back. Last time, I'm very pleased to say we had you on the podcast on the day of the release of your book entitled, subtitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York and the fall has continued since the publication of your book. And of course, the publication of Nobody's Fool by Virginia Giuffre. Can you bring us up to date with what on earth is happening with Andrew, formerly known as Prince? Well, I mean, he's been sent, in effect, into exile, exile in Britain. So he, I mean, finally the the palace have got to grips with this scandal. They're actually trying to get ahead of it. They realized that public opinion was way ahead of them, that the public was very concerned about all the information that was coming out. And as you say, the Virginia Giuffre book, I think it really sort of personalized and humanized the story. But we'd had a whole series of leaks, showing that his links with Epstein went on for much longer than he claimed. He was basically lying. And that's true of Sarah Ferguson as well. So the King felt needs to act. I mean, people were asking bigger questions now about the monarchy, its purpose, its finances. And, they kind of wanted to shut that story down. So Andrew basically has been thrown under the bus to save the rest of them. And so he at the moment he's going to Sandringham, the royal estate, which is a private estate. It's not Crown Estate property. So therefore nothing to do. The taxpayer, his wife who, who, claimed to be very loyal to him, is now become less loyal since he's no longer a prince and living in Royal Lodge, and is going off to Portugal or Switzerland. He may well end up going to the Middle East because, there are also calls for him to be investigated for his sexual and financial crimes. And that's coming from the former head of royal security from a former chief prosecutor in Britain. And so I don't think the story's over for him. And that's why the royal family are so keen to distance themselves from him. So there's a good chance he may end up actually going physically abroad, into exile, to somewhere where there isn't an extradition treaty. Well, I mean, this is such an extraordinary development, isn't it? Because when you came on in September, you were talking about your biggest hope was that they would be somehow pulled off the public financial role. So they were no longer supported. It is this much wilder than you could have imagined. Oh, absolutely. The whole thing is, we know, was the perfect storm. But there was clearly a deep public resentment about the way some of the royals, particularly these two, it operated. And that kind of emerged. And I think, you know, particularly scene, there was a recent appearance of them at a funeral where people felt they were pretty shameless and tried to sort of grandstand it. And that, I think was another factor. But it's this could have been underlying sort of concern about how leaks have operated in their own interests, taking advantage of other people. And I think it plays into that sort of trope at the moment. But yeah, I never expected this reaction. Congratulations. And as many people say, you couldn't be more of the establishment. You're a Cambridge educated historian, and here you are, now really causing some serious movement within the establishment. So can you just talk us through what Andrew is alleged to have done and why it might be that he can't just stay in exile in the UK, but he actually has to move to a country with no extradition order. What? What is it actually that he's most likely, do you think, to be accused of? And then let's talk about people that used to work for him now beginning to tell on him, as it were. Yeah. Well, I'm getting I'm getting it, you know, 2 or 3 people a day coming forward, quite senior people, former protection officers and and staff, people who I think want to get on the right side of history or don't feel I feel more emboldened now. I think the most likely charge is malfeasance in public office, or misconduct in public office, which carries life imprisonment. And the two, I suppose, elements to this one is recently in a leaked email, it was shown that he had tried to get a public official, his PPO, to investigate, Giuffre and indeed smear her. So that's one element. Can you just remind Americans what a PPO is? So refuse a police protection officer. So these are the close protection officers around him. So someone who would have known him very well, but is paid for by the taxpayer, reports the Metropolitan Police. I think there's other things. I mean, he was looked at 20 years ago by the National Crime Agency will certainly, piece called for it and this is for his time as a special trade envoy, where he basically was lining his own pockets. Those things, I think, would be grounds for investigation. And I think for charges to be brought on. In the past, no one has really dead go there for a member of the royal family. The Mets sort of skirted some of this stuff through the stuff around sex. Trafficking, the met being the Metropolitan Police. Sorry, I need to have a little dictionary with me. And, so the Metro police looked at some of the sex allegations and said there was nothing to see. Well, the office for, basically scrutinizing the police for independent policing has now come forward and said, look, you need to look at this properly. I mean, I found even when I put in, a freedom information request, they wouldn't even tell me whether they investigated Andrew or not. So, we've got that. We've got a private prosecution be launched by Republic C anti-monarchist, group. We have the former head of royal security, and the former is a head of, of, the, the prosecution service for the North of England saying the grants for him to be, possibly charged so that there is a groundswell. And I think public opinion still feels he hasn't been held to account properly. The only thing that's changed is he's moved house and he's no longer Prince. He hasn't really had to explain himself. And we've now got the Senate Oversight Committee wanting him to give testimony, if necessary, by zoom. We've got people calling for him again to talk to the FBI, to talk to the lawyers, to the lawyers of the victims. So there's a groundswell of opinion that that is really pushing. And the royal family were sort of behind all this. They thought they had seize initiative last Thursday by getting rid of the titles, getting him out of Royal Lodge. But I think there's still they still haven't gone far enough. I mean, there was something so sinister about one of the emails that got released, I think as as part of the, email dump from the oversight committee, which had him saying, several months after he'd said that he'd cut off his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, we're on the same side. Don't worry. Looking forward to playing together again soon. Is there a suggestion that he slept with more of Jeffrey Epstein's, network of young women than just Virginia Giuffre? So, yes, of course, there are lots of woman, who connected with him. There were several interviewed, at, during some of the legal cases who pleaded the Fifth Amendment. There's a woman who has now emerged in the mail Sunday here. Paper has written about you without identifying how the victim. I've certainly come across a woman who, I think was sex traffic to him. And actually, one of the other interesting things is Andrew was passing some of his girlfriends to Epstein, and one of them, who later married a very rich banker. I think many more names are emerged, many more victims, I think, now feel confident of coming forward. We're going to see more leaks from, I think, some of these legal depositions. And of course, if some of the Epstein material gets released, as we hope, I think that's going to open up a whole new can of worms. The irony is that in many ways, the accusations against Andrew were always hiding in plain sight. I mean, his tabloid nickname and the way he was referred to by the British reporters was this Randy? Andy, you have in your book, a riveting chapter about how he behaved sometimes when he went on royal tours. For those who haven't read the book, can you recount his weekend in Thailand? Yes. Well, one of the episodes, I think, is 2004, where he goes to the King of Thailand, the celebrations paid for by the taxpayer. And this is material. This is source material. So Ian proud, a diplomat who's actually subsequently written more about this, it was one of my sources. Another is a man called Andrew MacGregor Marshall, who's the Reuters correspondent there. And I'm a member of the Thai royal family. And they also, Andrew, insisted on going to this very expensive hotel because he like the nightclub in the bottle at the basement. He didn't go to see this in the residence of the ambassador. And in the course of four days, he, basically had 40 prostitutes brought to him. He was swapping them with an Arab prince who was also in the hotel. And he even went on a trip to Chiang Mai with, his half Thai mistress, Sonya Cooling. So, I mean, he was very open about it. I think the whole point about Andrew's activities is he didn't operate alone. He was enabled and protected by, his staff, by diplomats, civil servants, by the palace. So, I mean, they've changed the tune now, and they clearly kind of want to to to, expose him. But this wouldn't have happened without all these people supporting him. And I think that's what's so extraordinary. I got a story this morning about him in Hong Kong, where he took the whole floor of the Landmark Hotel and was entertaining prostitutes there. I've got stories of him being paid to open golf courses, and one of his requests was 16 year old blonds. There's a story I tell in the book of, the from the a constant in South Africa where his private secretary asked it said, there we have it. He has a list of requirements. He only drinks, water at room temperature. He liked sweet of for breakfast. And by the way, he likes blonds. And the diplomat replied, I'm a diplomat. I'm not a pimp. I remember that quote from the book. It's a pretty. Brazen. Yeah, incredibly brazen and amazing that it's taken until now. And also, you have had personally issues reporting this book, correct? Yes. I mean, you know, the we had some legal letters from, Sarah Ferguson, the attempts to intimidate me, saying they're monitoring my social media. Foreign Office told diplomats not to talk to me. We've had various papers, like Vanity Fair actually interview me and then not run the story. We've I've had, my social media people have had to cut the comments because there was a whole campaign of critical comments. I've had stories spread about me that I've wanted young, white, escorts, underage escorts. Right? I mean, they were trying to slime you in the way it turns out he was trying to get his protection officers to slime Virginia Giuffre. Absolutely. And in fact, I think I report in the book on how a PR firm was brought in to, to to go after Giuffre, and that's what I'm told they've done with me. So there's a sort of concerted campaign to undermine anyone who is trying to tell the truth about this story. So what on earth was Sarah Ferguson making of all this? Because she must have known that he was spending weekends roaring through 40 prostitutes. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein is said to have had, an insatiable appetite and needed to have at least three massages with a happy ending every day. Not a happy ending for the girls delivering them, of course, but the idea of getting through 40 prostitutes over a weekend, I mean, I mean, it's sort of imagination boggles. But what do we think that Sarah Ferguson and his daughters knew of this behavior? Well, that's a good question. I mean, Sarah Ferguson has stayed, on a regular basis in Epstein's homes. She must have noticed it was pretty unusual sort of things going on there. Actually, there are more numbers, actually, for Sarah Ferguson in the little black book than for Andrew. So, you know, I think she knows a lot more. She should be a material witness for the FBI. That I think, you know, Sarah was was with them often when and, and the children when they were introduced to Peter and and Peter Nygaard and all these people who subsequently been charged with sexual assault. So, you know, there's a famous picture, pictures. Pinterest. Beatrice's 18th birthday party was Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell as sort of some of one of the most important guests. So this was a world that they were operating in the whole time. And I think the daughters were taken once Epstein come out of prison. I mean, it was like a special trip to sort of celebrate with Epstein. So they must have been aware of what was going on. But they were prepared to do that and introduce their children to a sex offender because they were so in need of his money. Yes. And I think, you know, there were sort of double standards going on because on one side, as Sarah Ferguson was, was supporting sex trafficking or against sex trafficking charities, rather, and a children's writer. And at the same time here she was quite happy to, to, to mix, to stay at the home of a convicted pedophile. And you know, I yeah, I just think that there was a certain hypocrisy about the way they behaved, but partly because they wanted money. And I think in the end, they didn't really care. It wasn't something that worried them. I think Sarah Ferguson a must have known a lot of this stuff. There were times when actually Andrew cut short family holidays in order to go to Little Saint James, and spend time with with Epstein. So how is Prince Andrew going to manage for money? He's been turfed out of Royal Lodge, which he played a peppercorn rent for, which was literally two peppercorns, I believe. He's going to live on the Sandringham Estate. How does he manage for money? I don't think Andrew has any problems with money. I mean, he's inherited money from the Queen mother. I think probably from the Queen. He, has made money from various business activities, and we know from looking at his accounts and that monies were transferred. There was all the, the, business he was doing in China with the alleged Chinese spy. Ten. We know that he's been doing business in the Middle East, often paid in gifts rather than the money. She doesn't have to pay any rent at all. Now. Think he's just basically being housed by his brother. He's going to be given allowance by his brother. He's been given at least 500,000 pounds. So 6 or $700,000 to, as part of this repairing lease. I've been told he's actually being paid millions of pounds to move. That was the incentive to go. So I don't think there's any problem with that money. This idea that the pause is ridiculous. Okay, so how bad is this for the British royal family? We have King Charles who's got cancer. We have Prince William sort of limbering up to take over at some point, though it's unclear when. Obviously. How bad is this for them? Well, I think it was very bad until Thursday. I thought I publicly said, I think this was the most dangerous moment for them until since the abdication. I think they've they've seized initiative since then by being pretty ruthless. They've won a lot of respect for that. William, I think, understood the problem. I think possibly Camilla and Kate as well. And so I think what they've done is, is gone down very well with the public, 90% to a pretty appalled by Andrew's behavior. But I think what it's done is it's now raised wider questions, which are questions the royal family don't really want to to to to respond to, which is about, a royal privilege and accountability. So people are now asking questions about people in grace and favor houses who are not working, royals who whether they're paying market rent or are basically being given pretty cheap accommodation, which is the case with Andrew and his and we found was repeated repeatedly with other members of the family. So, for example, the two daughters have, flats or cottages at Saint James's Palace and Kensington Palace. And no one knows because they're not working royals. Why they should have them. Those are Andrew and Fergie's daughters. Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. Yes. Sorry. So. So, the the York daughters, the Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie have, accommodation in, royal palaces. Those are not working royals. And I think people are asking questions about that. There were calls, a go for a Royal register, like a parliamentary register, what people would refer to. So their business interests. And this is true of some of the people on the periphery of the royal family. People like Sarah, Phillips, Mike Tindall, Peter Phillips. So these are children of, Princess Anne, and the husband and the husband. So there's there's a sense that we need that we want more power with people calling for more parliamentary accountability. The rules were that MPs were never allowed to question anything about the royal family. I think people are trying to change that. They were exempt under the Freedom Information Act. Their attempts to get those exemptions, changed so that they can be asked questions. And we also have the question of royal wills, which are sealed, which would reveal how money is passed down from generation to generation. And one can understand that perhaps within the, direct line of succession, but in many very obscure minor roles, protected. And I think people want a little bit more, openness about the two very rich estates that, the Duchy of Cornwall, which is run by the Prince of Wales and Duchy of Lancaster, which is run by, the king. They're making huge sums of money from them, and often taking advantage, for example, charging parking in hospitals, which people feel is, is not really a very, suitable for them. There was a sort of the way they have their money is called the sovereign grants, and they've been given it a percentage of basically the incomes coming in, to some of these estates. But they're making a lot of money, particularly from wind farms on the seabed around Britain, because they, own the seabed immediately around the perimeter. So people just being in there making a lot of money, we don't know how they're making the money. They're not paying taxes. A lot of these estates, there are a lot of very shady, trusts which are paying, money, for example, the sale of Andrew's, wedding gift house, Sunninghill Park, which was bought by the son in law of president of Kazakhstan, someone he was doing business with. They paid, a 3 million pounds over the asking price, even though there'd be no interest in the property for a period of five years. So there are lots and lots of questions being asked which the Royal family would prefer not to have to answer. So, Andrew, a serious question. Do you think the British royal family actually survives? Yeah, I think they'll survive, but I think they'll only survive if they adapt. They're very good at doing that. They they did that when there was a public outcry after Diana's death that there needs to be more sort of, a response to that. So the Queen did a broadcast, flags were lowered and they they got through that crisis. They'll get through this crisis. But I think increasingly, there's a sense that they've become less and less relevant. The few of them to do the jobs now are with. With Andrew out of the way, Harry, Meghan out of the way. So I think we're going to move to this much more slimmed down monarchy, a much more European style, just the direct line of succession. I think we now have got a precedent for people losing their titles. So I suspect Harry, Meghan, Beatrice and Eugenie and all these people will have their titles taken away at some point because they're not working royals. And I think the focus will be more on good works than on pomp and ceremony. I mean, I understand that they're reducing the number of working royals, but one of the things that seem to be a statistic, which we've talked about on the podcast before, is that 1 in 6 British people have met a member of the royal family, and there's no doubt that if you do meet one of them, especially at an event, if they're opening a new factory or they've turned up at some charity event that people tend to warm towards them. So isn't it a sort of vicious circle that if you have fewer working members of the royal family, fewer members of the public meet them and there's fewer people to support them? Well, I think the problem is, is the cost, and people get very concerned about supporting them. If they were all working royals, then that would be one thing. But some of them don't want to be working royals. And I mean, Princess Anne's children, she didn't want to have titles, and they had their own careers. I think that'll happen with Prince Edward. So we're actually left with not many of them wanting to do the job in the first place. And I think we just have to accept that, you know, we're not going to meet so many. You know, sometimes as many people are going to meet the royals and the the jobs that they used to do will have to be done by what are called deputy lieutenants, who are their representatives in each of the counties. But I think also a recent research has shown that actually the royals don't necessarily raise more depending on the royal, but they don't necessarily add to the coffers of charities. And actually they can with, for example, Andrew and Sarah be counterproductive. So I think there's a new new thinking about about the role they play. Well, I live by Buckingham Palace, and often have to cross an James's Park when there are events going on. And certainly, for example, the big events like Trooping the Color coat, a color which used to have a lots of, British people there. My experience is, is actually filled just with tourists. So there's a sort of curiosity value about the royal family. But I think most of us kind of, kind of see them as a slight irrelevance. So, I mean, you know, there's definitely a role there, but I think the younger generation are less interested. So you think Prince William will be a much more modern European style, possibly bicycling royal? Yes. I mean, I think William does want to, to sort of make it a more low key, thing. I mean, he, he wants to to get the balance, particularly now with his family. Right. So he does need his father, the elements of family as a sort of workaholics, and everyone respects him for that. But there's been it's been very damaging to their own family lives. And I think William's very keen to get that balance right for himself and for all the members of the family. I, I don't think he's going to be more open than the others. I think he's actually more secretive than his father. So the transparency a lot of people are calling for, I think, may take some time, but, you know, they may adapt to the fact is that you know, there is pressure on them now to be more transparent. And they may just for their own sake, survival except the need to make concessions. Andrew, what do you know about, Prince Andrew's relationship with Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein? Because we've also got pictures of them together. Well, Donald Trump claims not to not to have met Andrew, though there's there's plenty of photographic evidence. I mean, they were close. They had the same interest in women and golf and making money. And they certainly got lots of testimony of them, meeting and fact. Andrew was kind of the designated role for Trump because of the golf interests. And, you know, Andrew went to more Lago. There are pictures of him there with with Melania and with Gwendoline Burke, who was one of the people supposedly took to to the island. No, there's plenty. I mean, they went off and play golf. Andrew was designated to show Trump Ryan when he came on his first state visit. So you know the link between them are pretty extensive. So, Andrew, can you take us inside the family dynamics of the decision to strip Prince Andrew of his title? Because we know there's William waiting in the wings. According to what I've heard and read, the decision to strip, Andrew of his titles, last week was pretty much driven by, William, Charles I. But I think Charles had been heckled. He could see the comments in the papers, lots and lots of editorials and including a front page of the New Statesman saying, is this the end of the monarchy? And I think they realize he needs to act. And I think, Camilla was probably quite instrumental here. She was very instrumental in adding, a note to the statement that they were thinking for the victims, and that was the most important thing. They, I think, realized that these were the questions were being asked, and they needed to, to to basically seize the story and make it their own. So was there a sense in which the king was reluctant to, because there has been this sense that he was trying to, you know, reconcile with Harry by Harry coming over for a visit recently and also trying to sort of, I thought, help Prince Andrew. But perhaps I'm wrong. Yes. No, I think the King Charles is very sentimental. It's his younger brother. I think he gave an undertaking to the Queen that he would take care of the brother. The run to the letter, as is called. And so I think he found it very difficult to make these tough decisions. I mean, the narrative that's been spun from Buckingham Palace is it was very much the King's decision. He's been thinking of doing this for a long time. I think people just eventually got both fed up with Andrew and his stubbornness, insistence and staying in Royal Lodge in the heat despite the bad optics. But also, I think they could just say see the way public opinion was going and they were going to be in big trouble. So it's it will be interesting to see how things play out over the next few weeks, even whether people are now satisfied that justice has been served or we'll look for more. And I think that they will be looking for more, that Andrew hasn't really been fully held to account for his actions. He hasn't given a statement explaining everything in his relationship with Epstein, and that he is, I think, vulnerable to charges being brought against him. So, Andrew, one of the things that has certainly happened over the last few years is that the British royal correspondents for the tabloids and the broadsheets in the UK have become much more timorous of writing about the royal family. It's one of the reasons that your book, entitled, got so much attention because you were incredibly robust in your reporting. Are you noticing a change at all? Yes, I am, and I welcome it. So I've noticed that a number of journalists I thought were very much on side and reliant on the royal family for their tip offs, and are much more critical. There's, I mean, some of the new books that are coming out again are much more questioning of the royals. So this is good. I do feel that there is a change of mood and, and certainly the press have been running some quite hard hitting investigations. They've been running leaks, which I don't think they would have written before. They're, they're criticizing even even the King and the Prince of Wales. And so this is this is a complete sea change, I think, in attitudes which which is welcome. I mean, I think they, you know, if they have nothing to hide, they should have no problems about having this proper scrutiny. So let me ask you one final question. Andrew is now going to be referred to as Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. There is a certain irony to this, because his fall from grace is to do with his connection to Jeffrey Epstein, a sexual predator. But in taking the name Mountbatten, he also has a connection to a predator that you wrote another book about. Well, one of the ironies is one of my previous subjects, Lord Mountbatten, who was, Prince Philip's, uncle, and it's now emerged having had a very distinguished public career as a, as, for example, the last viceroy of India, it's been revealed, I've revealed in my book that he was a pedophile. There's actually a case going through the courts in Belfast about a young boy who was trafficked him from one of the boys homes there. So this is on top of the two witnesses I had and indeed, the FBI files I found talking about his pedophilia. So, there is a second pedophile in the family with the same surname now as, Andrew, who we used to know is Prince. Good lord. Well, William has his work cut out for him when he eventually takes over. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us, and I'm glad your book is going up the bestseller list again. Thank you. Yes, it's it's it's it's gratifying. And it's good that in some ways these issues are now being aired, which they I've been calling for for years and nothing was done. So I really feel confident that there's going to be some change. Great ball Andrew. Lonely, thank you very much. And if you haven't read it entitled The Rise and the fall of the House of York, well, I guess you'll be rapidly coming out with an updated edition of it, won't you? We will. It's going to be called untitled. Okay. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. Andrew, I can't believe how much has happened since we last talked. And it was only, I think three weeks ago. And you have in your new Substack two absolutely explosive allegations, which we are going to unpack. And when I say explosive, they really are. They really are. We will get to them in a minute. But what I wanted you to do first was give us an update with where we are. We have some embarrassing emails of Prince Andrew coming out from the Epstein trove, the emails that came out last week. But but where is Prince Andrew right now? Has he left Royal Lodge and what are the developments since we last spoke when he just lost his title of Prince? Well, I mean, from what I'm hearing, he doesn't seem too concerned. He feels he's a free man now. He's saying he's going to go on dating apps and. He's going to go on dating apps. Really. And you know, he's still in Royal Lodge. They still haven't haven't opened all the present, all all the, the parcels that, Sir Ferguson ordered and had me open to self. So, I think they're not going to go up to Sandringham till after the New year. And clearly, when all the royal family have left, and I'm not totally convinced he will go to Sandringham. I suspects that he may go somewhere else. We've got a private prosecution being brought by Republic. We have calls from, former head of royal security, and I was saying that he should be investigated both for sexual and financial irregularities. So he's clearly not out of the woods. I mean, there's been a lot of speculation about whether he might go to the Middle East, a lot of speculation about what Sarah Ferguson is going to do. Will she go to Switzerland? Portugal? Will she have a look at the tower in London? She's been it's been said that she's going to promote herself as a, a speaker for empowerment and, positivity. I don't know how that. Well, that's going to go. Empowerment. How is she a speaker for empowerment? She was being funded by the world's most notorious pedophile. Well, she is a woman, you know, with her own, logic. But she is a survivor. She she she's been, you know, she's been a, you know, pretty much, you know, a broken spirit. So particularly in 2010 when she was caught sitting access to Andrew and she came back, she went on Oprah and people gave her the benefit of the doubt that she had she had repented. And I think she's going to try this again. I don't think many people think that she's, a busted flush. So, it's a lot of it's up in the air. I mean, there should be tensions between the king and the Prince of Wales over how this is handled. The king's authority, I think, has been a bit diminished by the fact that he didn't act sooner and more ruthlessly. As you say, there are these lines coming out, Andrew Fro from the Epstein disclosures showing him to being panicking. Really? When the story of Jeffrey broke. Of course, that kind of goes against the conventional line that he was pushing that, you know, he didn't know her, and and he didn't know what this is all about. But of course, it confirms what I found my research and other people have written about. For those of us who haven't gone through the emails in as much depth as you have, can you tell us exactly how he did react when it first became clear the allegations were that he'd slept with Virginia Giuffre? Yeah, well. Basically, keep me out of the story. And he went to PR people, PR people to undermine Giuffre. He he tried to get information about you up through his police protection officer using his contacts with the FBI. It was all about damage limitations and about distancing himself from the story. And, you know, he is only one of many, revelations that have come out with the disclosures, in the files. We've got more, I think, imminent. I mean, interesting that Trump has now kind of changed his tune and is happy for the material to be released. So I would say I'm not sure if he's happy for the material to be released. He realizes that he wasn't going to win the battle to keep them suppressed. So he sort of leant into the rebels in the Republican Party, I would say. I think it's more of a political maneuver, rather than he's happy for them to be released. Absolutely. Right. You know, he's he's he sees that, you know, that there's new advantage in, in trying to prevent their release, as he has done up till now. And, and he's having to go with the mood. And I mean, thank goodness we're seeing this stuff. I think again, we've seen the publication, of course, of Virginia Giuffre's own book, Ghost by Amy Wallace, which has been well received and been a bestseller and I think has again changed the Da for a lot of people. It really brings home how awful the situation was and how entitled these people felt they were. So, as you say, there have been a lot of developments. And I think there will be more. I mean, I think more people will come forward. Now, I'm certainly finding from my own research that people are coming forward for objection, officers for members of staff, ambassadors who I think are appalled by what they've discovered and learned, and I think also want to be on the right side of history here. And clearly, that's what's motivated Trump to a certain extent as well. And there've been lots of accusations. Tina Brown made it over the weekend that the Queen really enabled Andrew's behavior. Do you think that's fair? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I was vilified when I said this in August, because the Queen, of course, was a saint and wouldn't have done anything like that. So it's great that, you know, people like Tina Brown are saying these things. It's but it's exactly what I found. I mean, we know that attempts were made to suppress the story. ABC television were were threatened basically, if they went ahead, they would lose access to the Royals. I know from talking to ambassadors and others that they were basically sent away with a flea in their ear when they tried to bring, the concerns to the Queen and her staff about Andrew. And of course, every time he seemed to be involved in some scandal, the Queen seemed to either, taken with her to church or give him some new honor. So I think it was pretty apparent at the time, just no one was prepared to say it. And, there was even a leak in the Sunday Times the other day, I think, by the palace, but trying to basically put the blame on the Queen for not basically sorting this problem out and handing a time bomb to to King Charles. So there's a lot of buck passing going on at the moment. In your book, entitled The Rise and Fall of the House of you, which we've talked about, extensively on this podcast. You talk about a weekend in Thailand where Prince Andrew went through 40 prostitutes. I mean, subsequent reporting has also found that he appeared to have prostitutes coming into Buckingham Palace with no security clearance checks whatsoever. No, absolutely. And I think Paul Page has gone public on that. He was one of the policemen on the North Gate. And I think this isn't a this was of concern to the police because there were always people who didn't know who they were. It was pretty clear that they were escorts. And, I mean, there were lots and lots and coming in, and, we've got lots of stories of escorts. For example, in Hong Kong, he took over the top floor of the Landmark Hotel and entertained escorts there on, I think, a trade, mission. So, everyone was turning a blind eye to to his activities, which is extraordinary. And I think one of the things that hasn't really come up yet is the whole national security element to the story. We've had hints of, alleged Chinese spies, but there are a lot of spies running around this story. You were to seek. Could is easy to see that both Andrew and Sarah Ferguson were very easy ways into to. They were very vulnerable because of their greed. And, they did have some very useful context. Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. And of course, greed does make people vulnerable. And we've seen that with members of the family time and again. So let's move on to Andrew. Two remarkable allegations in your Substack, which I couldn't believe I was reading. The second one, which will come on, is that Jeffrey Epstein was actually killed. But but let's look at the first one, which sort of leads to the second one, which is that Jeffrey Epstein had had enough of Prince Andrew and Fergie. He was concerned that they would perhaps spill his secrets and that he had hired, a hitman to basically, to remove them. Yes. I mean, this comes from two sources. One one, one in Paris. And another one in Palm Beach, who were very close to Epstein. I mean, you know, Epstein said all sorts of things. We can't always believe everything he said, but, I think he was getting very nervous. He thought particularly Sarah Ferguson might spill the beans on him. And this was a precautionary measure, I suppose. Now, how far he went down the line of trying to get more details about in terms of the sniper. But the sniper was, British Special Forces trained. And had he actually had conversations with this particular sniper? I mean, it sounds so. Conspiracy theorist. I find it hard to believe. But then so much about this story is hard to believe. Exactly. No. And I was very nervous about putting it up because clearly, you know, it's an easy way of undermining my credibility. So we'll see what comes. I mean, we do know that Sarah was was very concerned. I mean, that was the reason that she kind of kept in with Epstein because she was scared of him. And I think this this could have been just a threat. It could have been just as paranoia. As I said, I haven't been able to follow up the story to find any more detail. Though I've been told I will be given the name of a sniper. But, it is an extraordinary story, but it it's, you know, as you say, the story is, is bizarre anyway. And, we're dealing with people who are not necessarily in the realms of reality. If you are a sniper actively in the special services in the UK, the idea of being commissioned by an American to kill members of the British royal family, I mean, how on earth would he get away with it? I mean, it just seems remarkable. Well, I do think this was a serving member of the Special Forces. As someone who, being trained as a British special forces person, you know, I'm just thinking of the update of the Freddie Forsyth's novel. The Day of the Jackal. And is not, I think, than the update. It is about an ex-British special Forces person who is basically a gun for her. So in some ways that isn't that odd. It's interesting that I've got, you know, that's come from two different sources, but, you know, often that happens. It doesn't mean it's true. But, you know, interesting to see if that does bring forward anything else. In terms of, of disclosures, a lot of these things are rumors, and you just kind of float them and just see what happens. And maybe they have to be disregarded. Well, and in the hierarchy of people that Epstein was frightened of, I wouldn't have thought Sarah Ferguson would be very high on this list. No, I agree, but I mean, you know, maybe she's more garrulous than the others. I don't know, I mean, I don't know what she knew that she was concerned about. But, you know, we have had, you know, these rumors, for example, moving on to the second part of this, of this, the revelation that, you know, Trump, and Epstein, the their broken, contact, that Epstein was making threats to expose Trump. That was one of the stories Trump was concerned about, that Epstein thought he might be given a pardon protected by Trump. And those rumors have circulated for a while. And that might explain, the story of the of, Epstein's death, which I think, you know, a lot of people have of questions and I question in the book. I mean, just in terms of of Epstein being one of the great survivors, he was at the beginning of his, his, his court problems. He had always got out to live in the past by, paying people off and having good lawyers. And, he was not someone talking to to, for example, the, the, the lawyers who, who were dealing with him, someone who was suicidal. And then we have all the strange things going on in the prison with the cameras not working and the guards falling asleep. We have Michael Baden, autopsy suggesting it was homicide rather than, suicide. We've got former members of, a correctional facility saying it was impossible to kill yourself, just because of the heights and the sheets and various all things. And then, as I say, the source, which has come from a good FBI source talking about, a fellow convict who was brought in to do this. Can you explain to me how this all unfolded? So you were contacted by a former FBI agent. How did this play out? If you you're a historian, hugely respected historian. You have a PhD in history. How did you get this information? How did it come to you? Didn't. Didn't come to me. I went to them. I knew about a case that they worked on. I knew they left the FBI. I approached them, and they kindly, in confidence, just shared some, correspondence with me that revealed this. And the correspondence was between whom? Internal fi, correspondence. Internal FBI correspondence has Jeffrey Epstein being killed in his cell. And that's what I was told. And this is what actually, Glenn Maxwell also said, I think, when she was interviewed by Jeffrey Barrack a few months ago, and it k course makes sense. You know, someone who has very little to lose and a lot to gain. Set the scene. What did the correspondence say, Andrew. And how was he killed? I don't know. I think it says that in the correspondence for I remember looking at. What were these internal emails that you saw? Yes. Does this was the investigation into into this character and this seemed to be a correspondence talking about about this particular figure, and, and the, and what has happened, what are you done? But it's only a fragment, shall we say. So again, you know what? It would be useful. I know the FBI had been looking at this. I mean, it's, you know, it's kind of been passed off. You know, it was a suicide, and that's been the line. But, I do know that people were looking at it, and I think a lot of people suspected that, and that would all fit in to the sort of his paranoia, when he went into prison. And the worries about some Sarah Ferguson and others. So I just want to get this completely straight, because I know you talked at the book fair this week, and and you talked about being told by FBI agents that Epstein was killed in his prison cell by another prison inmate. And you're now saying you saw correspondence FBI correspondence that discussed this? Were they discussing it as a possibility? Were they floating it as a theory, or were they saying they were confident this is what had happened? But from what I remember, it's a little while since I looked at it. I was shown it, but it was it was treated as fact. This wasn't speculation. And they know. And you know who the inmate was? Yes. There was a name there. Yeah. Why haven't you shared the name? Well, I mean, you know, I haven't got. This is the only word of evidence. I've got some incredible libel. Considerations. And, you know, given that what's happened to various people in the story, that's why I didn't share it too publicly. But, you know, at some point, I hope I can, and, you know, it's still sort of ongoing research. So a lot of people are going to say, Andrew Lone has just launched a Substack. He's trying to sell more copies of his book. He's now floating conspiracies that have been around. What do you say to people who are just saying, this is this is wild exaggerations from a man who can't possibly know? Well, I'd like to like to be able to follow up on this as soon as I can. I mean, the story has slightly run earlier than I expected. Incision was taken by people doing my Substack, that we would release it when I was waiting to do more. So. But didn't you say it when you were actually at the book fair? So you sort of put it out into the world? I did, and I know it picked it up, so I thought it was okay. So. No one picked it up. What are the British press doing? Oh my goodness. It's only small people. Like you said it had all gone. Roll the court. And, and then, the, people who myself thought we should put it out there, but, Yeah, I'm a bit more cautious. Yes, you should put it out there. Yeah. So. But you. Absolutely. Right. You know, you know, I can understand, you know, people want more evidence. I mean, the problem with the stories is often difficult to get the affidavits and things that people want. It is, yeah. Of course, I'm starting a Substack, and I've got a book sale, so, there's a there's a perfectly fair comments to make, but, you know, lots of people have Substack, some books to sell. Doesn't mean what they say isn't true. Right. And also, I think what's so interesting about your book entitled The Rise in the fall of the House of York, is that so much of what you said in the book that the, the Yorks were trying to stop coming out? I mean, we know that they tried to stop their friends from speaking to you. They wouldn't speak to you. So much of what has come out in the book, has proven not only to be true, certainly more than the tip of the iceberg, but it's led to, along with Virginia Drew phrase, but nobody's fool. The Prince losing his title. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's extraordinary. I mean, I think they realized that this, there were wider questions about royal privilege and accountability being asked by the media, by social media. And they felt that they had to kind of cut, cut him loose before he infected the rest of them. And I think when the king saw him, you know, was being heckled at Litchfield, when I think they were worried that there might be more Epstein material that may know what's there, I don't know, I think they realized that they had to distance themselves, and he, you know, there had been increasing calls that he should be investigated and could be charged. And in those circumstances, clearly they needed to distance themselves. And, you know, in some ways they should've been dealing with this problem years ago. They shouldn't have allowed it to, to drag on as long as it has. Well, I was going to ask you about because in a sense, this story has become so prominent because of Jeffrey Epstein. And yet the prince was off frequently, as you have pointed out on taxpayers money, on diplomatic jaunts, supposedly trade jaunts, where in fact, he didn't want to stay at the residences of the ambassador, because it clearly becomes evident that he wanted hot and cold running prostitutes where he was staying. And I'm surprised that given how many people knew this was going on in the palace, that nobody ran to men, was it because the Queen and Prince Philip gave him cover and that you can't, you know, once you know that they support him, even if you're a respected member of the household, the royal household staff, your word is not going to be taken seriously. Yes. I mean, the problem was, you know, policemen were reporting not to the, McChrystal Metropolitan Police, but to the head of the household. In fact, an even, Tony Johnson. But he's the head of the household. When people brought him complaints, said, look, you know, we just got to do a master's bidding. He wasn't a great fan of of Andrew. In fact, they got into fisticuffs themselves at one point. They got into fisticuffs. He supposedly it's it's supposed to turn physical. When Andrew couldn't get hold of a room that he wanted. So. Johnson. But it's or stand up to him. But, Andrew just always went to mommy and mommy would overrule the one. And Busters did complain and then found that their careers were pretty curtailed. Son Wilson, who was the deputy ambassador in Bahrain, spoke out and then found his security clearance, I think was was was withdrawn, for, for a job he had later on. So they could they have ways of making life difficult for people who don't play ball. And I think the view was taken. Just just give him what he wants. I mean, talking to members, the royal household. Last week, I was amazed that these that both he and Sarah Ferguson still seem to have staffs. Sarah was coming in and getting her laundry done at Windsor or Buckingham Palace. And there were still entertaining businessmen, in royal palaces and still was still operating under the radar. So I think what we're told and what's happening are some two very different things. But you see right there, you know, the obscene thing is kind of taking everyone's attention away from what is the real scandal. I think, which is why they've abused their position as royals to make money from sales. I mean, some ambassadors refused to play ball, and when they were given a list of people that Andrew wanted and other he or his mates to meet, didn't provide it or said they were unsuitable and kind of warned him off. But there was quite a lot as I forgot the book of And, I'm not cast aspersions, but Andrew had close connections with, with banks, banks that dealt with the sort of customers that no one else wanted to deal with. And so, you know, the, the you can see how the system might have worked. So Peter Morgan, the writer of the brilliant, Netflix series The Crown, I read, said that when he was envisaging writing about the royal family, he thought about the Queen as almost as Tony Soprano, that this was a business, and she was the sort of head of it. I'm not saying he was likening it to the mob, but as he was thinking about it unfolding over seasons, how did you sustain the story? Now you look back on the Queen and Prince Philip, given all we know now and love and respect and all with which the Queen was held, do you think that if she was still alive, she would still have that? Or do you think she's been subsequently revealed as enabling a very corrupt son, fully knowing what he was up to? Yeah, and it's interesting whether, you know, in my book why you're being published, and whether the press would have been as confident as some of them were in running some of the stories they did, because, I mean, I know there were a lot of stories of suppressed. So I, you know, I suspect now the Queen's dead, that it was a little easier for me to, to get published. I had a very, supportive publisher and big publisher and that helped. And I think then, you know, people felt the ground had been softened and they could come back. And there was clearly a very strong feeling among the population that, you know, elites were getting away with some pretty bad behavior needed to be held to account. And, you know, that was a big factor in the seats. But I think it was also a stronger feeling in Britain, too. So, you know, I think the whole softening up process was beginning, and it made it possible. But yeah, I think Queen, the Queen was still alive. I think it would be very difficult. I wanted to ask you about the Queen's husband, Prince Philip, otherwise known as the Duke of Edinburgh. What was his role in all this? Was he a supporter of Andrew? Did he try and rein him in? Did the Queen always take preference over the Duke of Edinburgh? I mean, as a married couple, as parents, how would they trying to influence Andrew? Well, I mean, my design had always been that, you know, the Duke of Edinburgh was the chap who ran the family and he ran a pretty tight ship. I mean, he was the one who basically summoned Andrew to Wood Farm and told him basically, you know, you got to resign all your things, you know, this is it. And he was pretty tough. So I, and the Queen did, did sort of listen to him. So I find it is extraordinarily that that wasn't to what happened. And all I've been told is that to the Queen that he, he did obey the Queen. The Queen said no, you know, we couldn't have sort of tough this one out. And he had to, to, to go with her. I mean, to be fair, he was also by this stage in his 70s, and I think he was just didn't really want to have all the fights as she was that might be required. They thought they could probably get away with it, or they thought he could deal with it. So they thought maybe the problems at the time were worse. Addressing, because the buffer vested in the Duke quite behind the scenes. Never it never happened. They may not have been told the full story by Andrew. I mean, one of the interesting things I picked up last week was that, Andrew hadn't told the staff he didn't know about the interview, with Newsnight in Buckingham Palace. And therefore the room hadn't been prepared, hadn't actually been cleaned. And there were the staff were very upset that that actually, it wasn't enough. They didn't think and fit state to to have TV cameras in it. The, Queen and Prince Philip must have been older than in their 70s, weren't they? Were they in their 70s? Because I thought the first story about Andrew and Epstein, came out, I think, in the mail or Mail on Sunday in 2011. So they would it so wouldn't they have been in the 80s at that stage? Hey, sorry I just a yes. So they're older. Yes. Exactly. So I mean so in some ways you know they they they were kind of they had this attitude sticking their head in the sand sometimes. And I think that's what they did. And maybe they thought someone else would deal with it who didn't deal with it. I mean, who knows? I mean, they're not here to tell us, you know, but I mean, to be fair, it was also a problem for King Charles. I mean, he was taking a much more active role. I by that stage. And, and Williams is, is taking more active role now. So it's it was kind of on his watch as well. And he's not a great you know, there's no love lost between the brothers. And he has a full measure of his younger brother. He was the one who didn't want him to have this job as a special envoy, because he knew how you would abuse a position. So it's it is a mystery how this was allowed to happen. And, you know, maybe we'll know maybe some of the coaches will eventually talk. I was very interested that you said that since the publication of the book and since Prince Andrew has lost his title, that now members of the household, of the royal household feel, much freer to talk to you, even off the record, because they're much less frightened of him. Yes, absolutely. I seems to be, you know, I'm amazed. I mean, I had dinner last week with, the former EC3, and these are people who would have given me a very wide berth, before the book was published. So, and again, you got to wonder why of these people coming forward. Is it they did they, Want want to share information, feel comfortable about what they know, and, feel that there's a higher loyalty than there is to the NDA or their previous job. Or are they giving you just information in the woods to undermine your credibility, or are they. Is this some factor that, I mean, a lot of them didn't like Andrew and were very, very happy to see him, you know, the, fallen, a fallen figure. So you you're constantly assessing why people are talking to you. But certainly I've gone back to a lot of people, and they talk to a lot of people that prefer to go on the record, as well. Very interesting. So, and I know you're doing a follow up to your book entitled calling it untitled. Is that going to be packed with new revelations? Yeah. Well, I go 150 pages of notes so far, just from the material through keep. You've come forward. And so this is some you know, this book is a couple of years away. So yeah, I think will be it will all be completely new. You know, we will cover some of the same period, but I'm good at getting new, lot more new information. For example, about his time as a trade envoy. And activities in places like Kazakhstan, places I didn't know about, like Mongolia. We took out a, I think almost all the material about his, activities in Libya, for example. And those have now been I think we could now put that stuff back in good little the stuff from Peter Mandelson and Epstein was taken out, because people didn't do those, didn't believe it. And now, of course, we've got the revelations about Madison Epstein's activities together and how close they were. So, you know, it's been gratifying to see that a lot of my sources proved to be absolutely right, which is why I sort of felt I felt it was okay to go on the Substack, because the sources have proved to be reliable in the past. And, I'm hopeful that I, you know, they they continue to reduce stress. So. Well, now that the Epstein files are about to be released, I'm assuming, that there will be more, more emails, more texts, more communications with the former Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson. Are you expecting more? Oh, absolutely. I mean, and other names sooner, because clearly the focus has been on him. And, you know, we've had Mandelson and but very little on the American side. So, you know, given the number of documents are, are I mean, they've got to be huge number of revelations. And if you remember, there were 40, I think 40 girls came forward to give evidence in the original Palm Beach, investigation. So there's, you know, I still think you've only got the tip of the iceberg here, in terms of of what even law enforcement knows, let alone what, may emerge quite separately from other other other witnesses and testimony. Do you think there is, the chance that Andrew, Prince Andrew, as he was known, will end up coming to the United States to give evidence? No, I think that's very unlikely. I mean, I think that was a little bit of grandstanding. By the Democrats. I mean, he he's been caught between a rock and a hard place for a long time because clearly, if you didn't give evidence or didn't cooperate with the authorities before evidence, you gives guilty. But if he did, he was going to probably, implicate himself. So, isn't exactly the same position, that I'm sure the lawyers will just say this is a sort of, a political trick. Democrats career minority on the committee. He's not an American citizen. So, I can't see him cooperating until he's forced to do so. But I can see material being passed to the British authorities for him to be investigated. Both. In terms of, of, say, the sexual trafficking and the misconduct in public office, which is, I think, the most obvious charge we leveled against him. And I think that, you know, there are good grounds there, and I've offered to offer material that wasn't put in the book, but for legal reasons to give that to the National Crime Agency. I think I have a story on my Substack, about $5 million in a suitcase in Kazakhstan, for example. This was a suitcase of cash. This is a suitcase of cash that he was given. We know you know, for example, that he was offered a 3.85 million pounds, 1% of a huge deal to bring a Greek water company into Kazakhstan. And that that that emerged through email leaks. So I think the deal never took place, though, right? It didn't take place because of internal unrest. So but we do know that there were these sort of deals going on. And so, I think we may find other things emerge, other people may come forward and talk. You know, Elon Musk has said there are things in the past, there were people who seen the files, before they were redacted. You may again be prepared to tour or leaked material. Are these just the things that were in Jeffrey Epstein's safe, or what do we actually think they were at these the supposed documents and information that he was, in theory or alleged to have been, blackmailing people with? Well, I mean, there's mature justice in the FBI. This is all part of the investigations. So there'll be witness testimony, with people who interviewed. There will be material that they've collected. So, for example, we know that there were, videos and tapes that he made of people who came to the house, all the various homes, and those in may be released. I think one of them is be briefly shown on, on the internet. So, there's a lot of material this, as you say, the stuff that may he just kept himself that was confiscated when they raided the homes. We don't really know. I mean, this is this is this is what's so interesting. But there certainly is a lot of material, and, you know, just to see how devastating the limited amount that's been leaked so far has been, it's suggested that there's there's some really big, damaging disclosures to come. Well, well, you couldn't have launched a Substack at a better time. Andrew. I can't wait for the next, the next installment. And, you know, I hope you get more information on what actually happened to Jeffrey Epstein in jail, but good luck. With the, you know, solving what sometimes feels like the world's biggest mystery. Yes. Well, I mean, think how much has come out and just in the last few months, you know, so I'm hopeful that the full story will a pretty full story will eventually emerge. But it just may take time. Yeah. And as I say, you really couldn't make it up. Every day there's something coming at you and you just think, how is this even possible? Anyway, I'm glad to know that you haven't entirely jumped the shark. And we will come back to the moment the Epstein files released, because we would love your take on what what you've found in there. So promises you'll come back. Of course. I look forward to it. All right, Andrew Loney, thank you so much. For, It's so exciting to have British author and historian Andrew Loney in the studio. I'm amazed you're even allowed into America. Well, I did fly Air Lingus, so I thought, if I'm going to go through preclearance, I'll be sent back from Dublin rather than from here. Okay. Very smart. Are also a cheaper flight I think. Is. Yes. So, Andrew, we have talked about your book entitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York repeatedly on this podcast. And I think it's fair to say that partly as a result of your book and Nobody's Girl, the Virginia Giuffre book, Prince Andrew is now had to give up his title. But it feels as if the entire royal family is in some kind of transitional phase. What are your thoughts about where the Royal family is right now? Well, I think it's beyond trans and transitional. I think they're in trouble. I think, they. Actually think they're in trouble. Yes. I mean, I think, you know, the whole point of the book was this was about financial corruption at the heart of the royal family. And Andrew was being protected. It was operating with the connivance of the institution. And so now people are asking wider questions beyond Andrew about how this was allowed to happen. Why wasn't dealt with earlier and how he continues to be protected. So, for example, there's a story in the paper today about how the King has had a meeting with the King of Bahrain in order basically to facilitate Andrew's escape to Bahrain. So Andrew, formerly known as Prince Andrew, is moving, actually, as you had predicted to Bahrain, you think? Yes. I think there's a good chance that I mean, I've always said that if charges were brought and I think they will be brought, that he would scupper in the way that King Juan Carlos of Spain has done so and gone to live in Dubai. And what would the charges likely be against Andrew, formerly known as Prince. With the lots. I mean, there's a whole sex trafficking. I mean, the point is, a Virginia Giuffre was ordered out of a book by Andrew. She didn't go there voluntarily. The met investigated this three times, said there was nothing to see there. There's now pressure on them to actually do a proper investigation. And when I asked for freedom information at the question, they wouldn't even answer me. This whole crisis has been driven by the public hook, kind of fed up with cover ups, with the protection of elites. And the press have realized that, which is why they've felt emboldened to ask tougher and tougher questions. And the royals are now aware of that and the to save themselves, to save wider questions about royal privilege and accountability. They thrown Andrew, too, to the wolves. In effect, there also clearly all the questions about his time as a trade envoy. But I think there's a lot of material that all that material I would happily pass to the National Crime Agency or to the met. And have they asked you for your help? Nope. I have repeatedly said that I would give them help. In fact, 20 years ago, MPs were very keen. The National Crime Agency did investigate. Andrew. They're still holding back all the files on Andrew and covering his time as a trade envoy. These files, by law, should actually be in the in the public archives. And even now I'm getting, for example, redacted names of people who accompanied him when we even had those names 30 years ago in the, the Court circular. So they're actually going backwards on what we actually was in the public domain before. Well, it's an amazing story. So one of the things you said when we last spoke, you were in London, I was here, which generated an enormous number of comments. And I'd love to address and sort of unpack with you properly. Is this idea that he was the Queen's favorite son, so he was the number two son, and that she protected him and that both her and her husband, both the Queen and Prince Philip knew of Andrew's bad behavior and really didn't do anything to rein him in. It seems so unlike the Queen we think of, who was always talking about duty first. And yet she appears to have had this second son who had no interest in duty apart from to himself, and to serve his own needs. Yeah, this shock is one of the most shocking things. I found the book and it goes against the narrative. The narrative was always she put the monarchy ahead of her family, often to their cost. But, you know, time and time again, I've got stories of diplomats going to her with complaints about Andrew. The palace tried to suppress all stories about Andrew and Jeffrey. To the extent of of bidding or telling ABC that if television, if they wanted to run a story, they wouldn't have access to the, to any member of the royal family again. Time, time again, she would give Andrew a new appointment when he was in the news on Epstein. So he was made a Knight of the Garter. He was made a vice admiral of the Navy, which he still is. He was made that after the revelations about Virginia Giuffre. Yeah. Absolutely. So she rewarded him with a Knight of the Garter, which sounds like the most insane, arcane British thing. What even is the night of the Garter? Well, the Knights, the Garter, I think, restricted about 20 of them. It's the most prestigious, I suppose people in public life in Britain who really achieved something very, very notable. But half the amount was the royal family. So you kind of think it's just them giving themselves baubles. And they like to parade around in their robes. It's one of the things that Andrew like best, and even after he lost his, his, royal royal role, he was still able to go to the lunch, even though he wasn't able to parade in the street because he could he be be pelted with eggs. So she was, you know, she was escorting him to events, getting to sit beside her in the car, going to church, everything to send out the signal that the royal family actually believed that he was an innocent man. And so the Queen was giving him air cover and baubles, as you say. What about the Duke of Edinburgh, her husband, who was supposed to be the one that sort of led the the actual family? Yeah, this is a great mystery. I can't I can't explain it. I mean, he I know was very concerned about the Sunninghill style. This was the sale of the house. The Queen had given Andrew's a wedding present, which was sold for 3 million pounds more than the asking price when there was no other bidder. And he realized that it didn't look good. He was the one who basically said to Andrew, the game's up and you've got to drop out of public life. So he did call the shots many respects, but I my understanding is that when he raised these matters with the Queen, she just had a complete blind spot and and her son could do no wrong. And yet she seems to have been harder. And, you know, I'm just going on things I, I've read, perhaps written by you, but. But she seemed harder on Prince Charles. Who would become king. Is that fair? Yes. I mean, I think and Philip was certainly very hard on, on, on Charles. I mean, they would it is a very odd scenario where, you know, I suppose they, they had higher situations of Charles and they kind of let Andrew do what he wanted. And this is goes right back to Andrew's sort of childhood where there were no barriers. He didn't have to to follow the rules, and he realized he could get away. And the rules didn't really apply to him. And that's happened right up to the present day. You know, the fact is that this problem should have been dealt with ten, 15 years ago and even in 2019 or 2022, when he was withdrawing from public life, they didn't really do anything. You know, even now, he hasn't lost his titles. He's been taken away from the peerage, but he still horses titles. And as you say, he's still, a Vice-Admiral in the Navy. So it's all window dressing. He's not going to move to a little two up to down in Sandringham. He's going to move to a nice big house with servants. His life is not really going to change. And possibly, he is going to be aged to basically get away from justice in this country with the help of the king. So let's think about the king's role in all this, because this is also complicated by the fact that we know he has cancer. We don't know what kind of cancer, because in classic royal family, sort of tradition, they put out some of the information, but not all of the information. So we're told that it's he's living with cancer, but it can't be cured. Which has led to speculation about how much time he's got left. And then you've got Prince William, Prince of Wales, sort of limbering up in the sidelines to get ready to take over. So between the King and Prince William, who has the most say at the moment now about what happens to Andrew? Well, I think we're in a transitional stage in the way we were when Charles was taking over the duties of the Queen the last few years of her life, and William is calling more of the shots. Charles is interested. His legacy. William is interested in governance, and he doesn't want to inherit the problem of Andrew, so he wants the stables clean before he gets there. Charles is reluctant to do that. The tensions between the two of them. Charles is still the workaholic who feels that the royal family should be there and kind of spread themselves pretty thinly. William feels that he should be focused on a few key things. They should get their mental health and their families as a priority, and wants a much more slimmed down European style monarchy. So there is this tension. There's always tension between Prince of Wales and a monarch. But it does seem to be, you know, particularly over Andrew. Charles is much more forgiving. William, I think is much more ruthless. He doesn't have any sentimental attachment to his uncle. So when William takes over as king, Sandringham will be his Norfolk property, right? I mean, I'm assuming that he'll take it over. So will he want Andrew living on the premises? I don't think Andrew will be there. I think so. You don't know? I think Sandringham is a temporary spot. He may not even ever go there. As I say, if charges are brought, I think he will leave the country. One of the things with Bahrain, I think, is that he will be protected there. He will not be they will not be able to extradite him to either Britain or the States. So, and I think he may be going there sooner than, than everyone thinks. The line always also is security. So we won't tell you where he's going for his own security. So he may not even go to Sandringham. He may go somewhere else. So he'll go direct. You think from Royal Lodge, which is where he still is, right? With his 30 bedrooms to Bahrain to avoid ending up in jail. I think so, you know, he was meant to leave, Royal Lodge as soon as was practicable. Well, that was a couple to a month ago. There's no sign that he's going to move any time until sometime next year. I suspect it will be quite late next year. So, you know, they're playing the whole thing long, what they're saying in public and what's actually happening in reality are two very different things. And that, I'm afraid, is the same story is always with the royal family. It's it's all smoke and mirrors and window dressing. So the third child in the, in the Queen's four children is Princess who I think is probably the child that people are most fond of. She seems to work very hard. She's kept below the radar. She doesn't seem to behave badly as far as we know. What does she think about all this? Do we have any sense of it? And of course, she had her own mysterious accident where she was found in a field, right, with a head injury. Yes. Well, you know so much we don't know. And this is why, you know, everyone is calling for greater accountability, about, I mean, not so much health, but certainly on financial issues. I think there is some sympathy in the royal family for Andrew. I mean, that that he's clearly not in a good way at the moment. He's he's kind of fighting this. He feels he's been hard done by and they, I think wanted to keep him onside. This is what the real worry is Sarah Ferguson and what she might do. Because of course, she's also now lost her property and she's lost or where she's living and she's also lost her title. So she moved out of Royal Lodge? No, she's still there for the moment, but, I think she's trying to work out where to go and the various options. One is to go and live with with one daughter in the Cotswolds and is to go and live in, in Portugal with another, I think Richard Branson and some of her sort of mentors have offered her things. She's just sold a 4 million pound house in Belgrade, in London, so she's not short of money. She could easily go and rent somewhere. She at one point was then moved to Switzerland. So there's that. That's another option. I doubt you want to go to the Middle East, but you know that there are a lot of options there. And people say she may even come to the States where she's always been far more popular than she is in Britain. I mean, this is just the most extraordinary story to think of the British royal family sort of imploding like this, and the Queen's favorite son being banished to the Middle East to avoid legal proceedings, and his ex-wife threatening a tell all. Do you think they continue? Is there actually a sort of sense now, a drumbeat almost in the UK for a proper republic? I think that this is probably the most dangerous moment in royal history since the abdication, and perhaps before that. And that would be the abdication of Henry Henry. They did with the 1896. Yeah, I. Think some 35. That was because of Wallis Simpson, who he wanted to marry, but she was divorced, so that meant he had to give up the throne if he wanted to marry her, which he did. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it is a dangerous point because I think what we're seeing here is a serious financial corruption within the royal family. People are asking much wider questions about the opaqueness of their finances, which they don't want to answer. We've got actually the running out of of people to man the thought, you know, Harry and Meghan are off. Andrew and Sarah Ferguson are out. I think the only ones under 60 now are the are basically the Prince of Wales and Catherine, the children are clearly too young to have any role. So this plays to the old to of of concentrating everything on the direct line of succession and only those in direct line of succession having titles. So that would mean Beatrice and Eugenie would, would also lose titles. I mean, this is another whole area of the debate. What's their future? Are they compromised by their parents activities? And this is this is Andrew and Fergie's children, Beatrice and Eugenie. Sorry. Yes. Who are in their late 30s, married, with children. But there are lots of stories about them doing business off the back of their parents contacts, particularly in the Middle East. They've been told to basically rein in their activities and that there should be some sort of audit of who they're dealing with, which they've refused to do, which in itself is quite revealing. So we've got them. So I think the likelihood is when William becomes apparent, I think it could be much sooner than people realize that all of them. Eugenie, Beatrice, Harry, Meghan, and their children will all lose their titles. It will move to a much more simple, say European style monarchy. We saw this the other day with, William's interview with Eugene Levy. There he turns up on the bicycle. You know, all this was very carefully. It's a very careful, calibrated PR campaign. This is just another normal family. They live quite modestly. They're focused on their children. They dress in the sort of clothes that you would normally dress in. So, that's the picture that's been sent out that that William wants to present. It's not the picture that his father feels comfortable with. So that's where there's some slight tension. But yeah, things are breaking up. I think, you know, the young, can't relate to royal family. There's terrific apathy. Republic, which is the anti-monarchist, organization is is feeling quite sort of strong at the moment. Polls have shown that, you know, levels of support have fallen from about 80 to 50% or less. And so they do need to sort of regroup and rethink what they do. And as more of these stories come out, not just about Andrew, but the questions that have been asked about the King and cash for honors with him. Other slightly further further afield them sort of family of Peter Phillips and Zara Phillips and some of their sponsorship deals. The, the, the they're the kids of Princess. Sorry. It's the children of Princess Anne. So these are more grandchildren of the the Queen. But. But who, have got their own careers. But the worry is their careers are slightly predicated on their royal status. Now, the other members of the royal family who've had independent careers, Lord Lindley, who's the son of Princess Margaret, who was a sister of the Queen, has got his own career. He's a chairman of Christie's. He's his force and career. His sister is an artist, never gets in the papers. So they're always the royal family who've dropped out of the famous occasion, where many people in the public realized what Andrew and Sarah were like was the Duchess of Kent funeral a few months ago. And the Kent family, again, have forged a very independent line outside royal circles with their own careers. And the Duchess of Kent had left royal service and was just a music teacher in outside London. So it can be done. I think the worry is when they try and monetize their royal status. Right? Which is of course, what Meghan Markle wanted to do. And Harry with the Sussex seal and the Queen told them that they couldn't do it, can we? Just for those people who haven't seen the photos from that funeral for the Duchess of Kent, I mean Tom Sykes, our Royalist columnist, had a series of those photos which were fantastic. But can you, can you quite describe them for people? I mean, because they all looked absolutely at daggers, didn't they? I mean, the photos told an amazing story of animosity. Yeah. Yes. It was like watching the Kremlin or something. It really was. It's, the background is the Duchess of Kent had a funeral. I understand that, actually, Andrew and Sarah weren't even invited, but turned up. They were given an armed escort from Windsor, which someone must of provided that they were not working Royals. Instead of going in the side door, they went down the middle of the aisle at the cathedral and sat in the front row. And then instead of slipping out quietly out of the side, wow. They sat in the front row. Yes. When the relationship is that, Andrew's mother is a cousin of the husband of the woman who died. I mean, it's not a particularly close relationship. Okay. Hold on. Andrew's mother. So the Queen was a cousin of the Duchess. So her cousin was the Duke of Kent? Yes. Okay. Yeah. But when they come out and everyone's paying their respects to the hearse, Andrew and Sarah are treating it like it's a cocktail party, wandering round, chatting to people, trying to get themselves into the photos to show that everyone loves them. A little bit like a kid at school who wants to sort of cozy up to to the end of the Prefects. There's a lot of pick me energy. I thought in it. Yeah, they were, I mean, and also William was there and looked like he didn't want to talk to them at all. You could see Andrew trying to engage him in conversation and William looking away or barely muttering a word. I mean, they were all trying to pay respects. The hearse was about to leave. That was a solemn moment. And then cheeky chappy Andrew comes and wants to make conversation. Right. And you're absolutely right. William totally ignores him. And also, they kind of move right to the center of the the sort of pictures and sort of hanging back at the sides, or at the back. They kind of want the front stage. And we've seen this time and time again when they were invited back to Sandringham, which was the first time that Sarah Ferguson had been invited back for many years. She kind of guns her way and goes and ways the crowd as if she's the central attraction. But we've got to remember we're dealing with two prime narcissists here. This was their opportunity for a bit more, you know, a bit of attention. Well, they certainly got the attention. Does Fergie get on with the King? I mean, what did the King and Camilla think of of Fergie? Well, that's an interesting relationship. Prince Philip couldn't stand Fergie and she was banned from, from from all royal events while he was alive. Fergie pretends that the Queen was very fond of her, which she was to a limited extent, in that she was fond of her grandchildren. She was pleased at Fergie had basically taken Andrew off of their hands. But, you know, she she could see her faults. The Camilla had been very friendly with Sarah Ferguson's mother, and indeed, Mark Shand, her brother, had worked with Sarah in an animal charity. So there was a bond there. And when Philip died and then the Queen died, Fergie used Camilla as a way back into the family. Charles is quite sentimental. He's quite forgiving. And he kind of thought, well, we better get her back in the fold. She's sort of kind of safer here. And we're all one big, happy family. And William didn't like that. Many other members of royal family didn't like that. Edward particularly. And Sophie haven't got a good relation. And Edward is the younger child. He's the one who's the force of the Queen force child. So she kind of wormed her way back into having been the outcast for 20 years. Suddenly she was, having Charles kiss her hand at Ascot. She was in the royal box at Wimbledon. And everyone was slightly surprised because of all the embarrassment she brought to the royal family of the previous years. But this clearly was a sort of reset. And now of course, they're now realizing that it was a bad idea. And I think the worry is Charles is going to do this naively all over again with, with Beatrice and Eugenie. The deal for Andrew leaving Royal Lodge because he was an outcast, at least there. And Tom Sykes is very good on this, is that there was no before and he could only go voluntarily. Well, the only way he was going to go was if he was paid large sums of money to go. And he felt that his family was going to be protected. His ambitions have all been transferred to his daughters. But Batten, both in terms of the business activities but also their role in the royal family, has been handed to them. And so the deal was they would retain their titles, which of course, their calling card for doing business in the Middle East, and they would be welcome at Sandringham at Christmas. They before the royal family and and on that basis he was prepared to go and that's what Charles is trying to, to maintain, you know, to allow that to happen against opposition from other members of the royal family. So Charles, in a way, has inherited his mother's ability to protect certain members of the family. I just wanted to go back to one thing. You said that Prince Philip really didn't like Fergie and didn't want her around. Is that because the first line of your book, entitled, says that he had an affair with Fergie's mother? Yes. You didn't. Fergie's mother, which, you know, in. A very arresting first line of the book. Well, it must be interesting psychologically, if you if you're about to get married to someone who's whose mother has slept with your father, that must be slightly unusual. And maybe, maybe not in law. Whose mother slept with your. Well, but put the two of them together. So. And. Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, it's a bit weird, but. Yeah, absolutely. No, I think, Philip, the reason that Fergie's father kept his job as polo manager to Charles, was because he clearly knew all the secrets and prepared to keep quiet in the way that, for example, Andrew Parker-Bowles kept quiet about Camilla's relationship with with Charles. It's all kept very much within this little tight circle. I think Philip wanted Fergie out because he could see the reputational damage that she was doing. She didn't feel he she was good for her son. He his son. He couldn't move on his life. He could see how she was capitalizing on her royal position. He didn't really like her. So I don't think it was back to the mum. Maybe every time he looked at her, he just thought of her mum, Suzy Brandis. Well, he did, he kept in touch with his branches and whether there was still a sexual relationship, I don't know, but on the night of the fire in 1992, at Windsor in November, which was actually his wedding anniversary with the Queen, he was with Susan branches in Argentina. So that relationship had all that friendship. It continued. No, I think they could separate it. But I think he did know that she was trouble. And Charles, I think it was just Fergie has this great ability to, to manipulate people and to worm her way back and to reinvent herself. And she's done it 3 or 4 times in the States, and people fall for it. And I think members the royal family had fallen for it with no time and time again. Wow wow wow wow. It's just it. Makes it's. Such a soap opera. It is an extraordinary soap opera. And it keeps people, I guess, amused. But it must be painful to be a member of the royal family and be living through this. So final question, Andrew. I mean, everybody says that the most popular member of the royal family is Kate. Is Kate Middleton or Princess Kate, Princess of Wales. How is her health? I mean, she looks painfully thin whenever you see her. But people clearly love her and she seems brilliant and has this sort of Princess Diana touch with the crowds. We recently saw her accepting flowers from some people that had been outside somewhere where she'd been, and she was so sweet with them, and they'd obviously been waiting a long time. What do you know about her health and how she's feeling about a member being a member of the monarchy? Yeah, I just don't know. You know? I mean, you know what the state of her health is? I mean, I do know that she is, as you said, the most popular member. They've placing all their hopes in her. She's carrying the whole thing at the moment. You know, she in some ways, it needs a nice middle class girl to actually show how it's done properly. They're putting a lot of pressure on the children, and they're being forced to do royal duties. I think much sooner than people realize, particularly George, because they want to show the sense of continuity that they're here to stay, and because they are so popular. But, yeah, she she gets it. And I think both she and William have said that service and duty is the root of all they're doing. The trope of the Crown was between public, duty and private pleasure. And people like Andrew and Fergie are in the private pleasure bit. And, you know, William and Kate are in the public duty pit. So, so that's the this is the this is the their sort of addition to say, look, you know, the royal family can survive some good hands, the future. But as you say, we know the big unknown. So health actually if she is as it is, some people say then that is a real problem for them. Wow. Well, Andrew, it's wonderful to have you in the studio. Viewers and listeners love hearing from you. We've had huge numbers of comments, so promise me that you will keep us, up to date with this extraordinary soap opera. And of course, the minute you hear that Prince Andrew Andrew, formerly known as Prince, as we should say, hops on a plane to Bahrain, you must call us, and we must get a full debrief. You're a special. Middle Eastern special. Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. I mean, a King Juan Carlos is now living in Dubai, right? Because he helps himself to the royal palace and got hounded out. Exactly. I mean, the Crown Princess of Norway, son is on charges of rape. So, you know, things have changed. The royals are no longer above the law. And I think that's that's what the public want. They want Andrew to be held to account. They don't want any more cover ups. And that's why I think, you know, he will face charges. Well, until face the new updated version of your book. Untitled. Well, I hope so. All right. Andrew, thank you very much for coming in. Looking back at these conversations, a single through line emerges. The Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor saga is not merely about personal failure, but systemic failure, where privilege insulated power until the scaffolding finally collapsed. Andrew Lo reporting shows us how Epstein's world, the palaces denials and decades of unexamined behavior converged into a crisis that continues to reshape the British monarchy. What once seemed like isolated scandals now read as chapters of the same cautionary tale, and as new revelations surfaced, the only certainty is this story is far from over. We love you, and I notice a lot of you are beginning to comment too. So thank you to Heidi Riley, Karen White, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Bo Kok, DC who Michael sometimes calls Bob Cobb, but it's Bo Kok DC, Andrea Hodel, Val love, Francisco Bonzo last con de Andrew Mela, Herbie, Fulvia, Orlando M Griner, Daniel dog. Lover, dawn McCarthy, Harry. Clark, Cappy. Nita, Andrew. Beaver travels with Carl, methinks and Sandra Clark. Thank you very much. Thank you to our production team Devin, Roger, Reno, Anna, Vanessa, and Jesse Millwood.