When I started school, I didn't even know how I was going to make money. At one point, it was quite an interesting point. Maybe school was losing like 300ish grand a month. >> When you share this, it it it gives so much more context for people that it was losing 300,000 a month, right? Like because most people probably >> Oh, it's been up to 700 grand a month. >> 700 >> or close to a mill at some points. It feels like what I'm supposed to do and the longer I do it, the more things seem to align to like clear a path for it to happen, right? There's just certain things that happen. Like you could call them coincidences or serendipity, whatever. >> You know, there's just a lot of like blind faith, I guess, and things do seem to be moving in favor of it. This was my first like computer. This is pre Google. And from the very first moment I touched a computer, it was honestly like kind of meant to be, I think. But even back then, I was just doing it cuz I loved it. >> Why did you go with Hormosi? What made you be interested in him? what >> well you just hear I'd hear about him all the time like people saying this or said that or need a book or most law I mean almost launch was really the thing I was like whoa he's everyone is like tuned into this I haven't seen that happen before and so I was like well I want to use that you know and we're like perfect partnership because you can't do both I sacrificed all like content online to build this and so it's a perfect partnership I think like people watching this aren't as much beginners. So they would maybe build people making 10k 20 30 50 that want to scale to 100 or scale from 100k plus more. What would be a few like pillars that you would recommend them to focus to started again in today's marketplace? >> Um now that you're making me think about it it's >> okay. Hi Sam welcome. It's very very uh great to have you here. >> Thanks. Uh so of course so the first thing I wanted to ask is um obviously nowadays you are the founder and the CEO of school and you know it's a company that's definitely going to be worth uh billions and millions of dollars and it already has millions of users and I'm I'm sure it's going to uh cross the 1 billion mark as well. It's just a matter of time but uh I think that what most people don't realize is that uh when you started it wasn't easy right? like when you were first wanted to make uh money online or you wanted to become an entrepreneur. I think you told this story that you didn't even know what the word entrepreneur meant so you had to Google it. I'm really curious uh when you nowadays I don't know uh work or like you know you wake up sometimes or you wander at night. Uh do you ever look back and remember those days and is it a little bit kind of like strange or weird or interesting that you got to this position or do you now like look at it as something normal as as a part of life that now you are this a founder you know that what you do has such a big impact does it like ever cross your mind really is it like weird the huge transformation you made or did it become normal? Yeah, I think it always becomes normal, right? Um like >> yeah, but I try not to think about things like that too much because there's always so much to do, >> you know, >> like there's always problems and there's always the the ways to improve and there's always like exciting projects and so you know, you're mostly looking forward and excited to to do the next thing. Um, I guess there's like milestones and things every now and then that it's kind of cool. And you know, in the rare moments where I have like thought back, I do realize how stupid I was, which is kind of funny. Um, like just there's a vast amount of like experience needed and and like lessons to be learned in things. No, it's a great answer. I think it's it makes sense. And the reason I was curious about this is because I think that most people underestimate, right, that the level of transformation that it takes uh to go from where you were to now running this this huge company that has an impact, which is which is really cool to see. And I think sometimes people like forget that you are a human. That's why I wanted to start with this question because they just look at this guy like some ovens they think he's just like always has been this way or like of course you had some you know strengths and some talent in in what you do now that you saw early signs of probably but I think the uh like when people realize that when they look at other people that are successful uh like they changed a lot this these people they weren't always like that it kind of inspires them that they can make a big transformation as well. So I think your story is really really beautiful because a lot of people make money right or like they they are worth a lot of money whatever but there are very few people that are so dedicated to their work and what they do and they find something really purposeful that creates a movement like school for example how many companies they are like the hot toot competitors that uh yes they might be making money or whatever but like that community feeling around the brand that that movement that connection I really impact that that school has on on people I think it's it's really cool. So, um I think that that's why I wanted to mention this because your success isn't just like financial. It's across across the board. The impact, the financial success, the vision, the people, how many people already helped or connected and it's good to realize that you can go from someone that doesn't know what the word entrepreneur is, right? Although you had some other of course skills and you were always smart to to now and the growth that you have had. So, that's really cool. And um could you maybe discuss a little bit like um because most people look at this and probably like they don't see everything like they don't understand what it took most likely. Um, and I know that you always look look forward and we're going to talk about it today, but um, could you share if I don't know if you ever shared it, but any any hard moments or like any examples that you can give people to what it took to go from that SAM ovens, you know, the first version to to the SAM now like for example, I know that while building school, I I think you shared during a podcast, if it's not something public, we can not share this part, but I think you shared that your business and personal bank account like went down to almost 50,000 or something when it used to be way more. So maybe I don't know can you talk about that or maybe other moments to just tell people um to give them some context that it's not easy and what it actually takes to operate at the level that you operate. >> Yeah. So I think time is the main thing, right? So like you know I've been working like 12 hours a day, six days a week for a very long time. Like how many like maybe it's 15 years or something. But the first five I don't think I was this this um good at at working really. Um so maybe only for 10 I've done it with that kind of intensity. Um time is the main thing. >> Mhm. >> Right. you just to get good like and I think accurate expectations are are very important because I don't think like no one ever gets good just doing something a little bit like and I think it's just a lot of time in a in like years and just like grinding on it for for a very long time and I think most people get scared of that and they're like oh that sucks or oh that why would you want to do that? Well, that's why really loving the work you're doing is so important because then it's not actually like a grind and it's fulfilling. Um yeah, so there's that part of it and I honestly think that's the main part because if you do that the other stuff kind of sorts itself out like the money side and everything, right? because if you're very talented and you're building something cool, people will come forward and and help you like investors, customers, whatever. Um, but yeah, there's also the financial side. You can't ignore it. Um, I used to say balls and math. >> Like you need both. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so, you know, the numbers are super important. you can't like run out of money. Um, yeah. And so when I started school, I didn't even know how I was going to make money. And then, you know, I was funding it with another business, but then, you know, I needed to put more time into it. I couldn't run the other business. And then our our costs were growing and the other business couldn't even fund the cost of this business. And you know there's been multiple times where I get stuck like because I need more time and I need more money and you don't have either, right? Um, so you know, like I at one point, it was quite an interesting point. I school was losing maybe like maybe school was losing like 300ish grand a month. >> Mhm. >> And my other business, my like mastermind and things I was doing, >> it was making about 300 grand a month. And that was kind of good cuz it it balanced it out. But I was putting time in there and I needed to put more time in here. And to shut that down, you know, we would be going from kind of break even to like losing 300 grand a month. But also to shut it down, I had to refund the members in the mastermind. >> And I remember that refund was like a million or something. So, it was like in order to get the time, I had to refund a little bit over a million dollars and sacrifice 300 grand a month and just go into some burn. Um, that those are the kinds of choices that are are quite challenging, but also they when you if you like do them often those are the things that lead to a breakthrough. Um, and so, you know, I just kind of did this math and figured out can I bridge this gap? Because if I focus on it fully, how fast can I figure out how to make up for that? And it was it turned out to be like a great choice. >> Um, and I honestly might might in hindsight might have been putting that off for too long. >> Mhm. >> So, on school, >> Yeah. balls in math, >> right? You that that took both >> um and then you know I think I learned this very early on because I was doing my degree at university. >> Mhm. >> In business. I also had like an internship at a company like a corporate company. So like it which could have turned into a good job. >> Mhm. And I was also on the side like building an app and dabbling in being an entrepreneur. And I didn't do well at any of them. >> Mhm. >> Like I was kind of not really present at my job. I was struggling to to be present at university and my app was struggling too. But I was like hedging my bets, right? was like, "Oh, if my app doesn't work, then at least I've got my job and if that doesn't work, then at least I got my degree kind of thing." >> But it wasn't until I just burned my bridges, like I dropped out of university and I quit my like internship job thing and just went all in on entrepreneurship. But I did move back home with my parents and things to cut back on cost. So, I've kind of learned this pattern from the very beginning, which is like keep your costs low, keep your life simple, and you sometimes need to take leaps of faith. Um, and you and and being all in. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very good answer. No, I think that when you share this, it it it gives so much more context for people that it was losing 300,000 a month, right? Like because most people probably >> Oh, it's been up to 700 grand a month. >> 700 >> or close to a mill at some points like but yeah, it's >> I know how to lose some money. >> Yeah. No, and then you know how to get it back. So, it's it's always but that that's really cool. Um, and you know why this is interesting is because when most people look at this like I think it will give them a different level of appreciation of what you do is because who who does this like who would be making hundreds of thousands a month of profit uh like have a good reputation good good client results that you had right and decide to do this is that most people want the you know they want the view but they don't want the clamp as Moses says it's it's the same principle here and I think you sharing more sites more things like this is really powerful. Like, is it the secret? >> Yeah. I think I only want the climb, honestly. >> Yeah. Really? Okay. >> Well, honestly, by the time I finish a lot of things, I'm like bored. >> Oh, that >> reminds me a lot. There's this guy There's this guy on New Zealand called Graham Hunt, and he likes he's got some like really cool super yachts. >> Mhm. >> But the only by the time he's built it >> Mhm. He doesn't really like using it that much and he often just sells it. >> It's the process of designing it and building it that he actually likes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I'm kind of similar in that way. Like there is I I really like the process of building and designing and Yeah. >> Very good. Yeah. the the man who likes walking will walk further than the man who likes the destination kind of. But that's really interesting that we are sharing this is because um yeah that's why that's why you're winning is because you like building you like the process because anyone else would stop right they would have quit long ago like there are so many probably challenges or things or hardships that happened till this point that most people would stop and maybe irrationally so right maybe so and you care about it so much and the process that you keep going that's really interesting okay is it a secret if no if yes you don't have to share like how much total it cost you uh to to kind of uh fund school before the first investors or before the first Yeah, >> at least 10 million. >> 10 million. Yeah. >> At least. Yeah. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Yeah. That's crazy. But again, and coming back to the to the present and to the future, I think it worked worked out pretty well. So, that's the most important thing. So, that's that's really really cool. And also, uh we covered the money, but also what you what you uh went over as well was the time. It's like for most people it's hard to even work one week, 12 hours a day, right? Six days a week. And for you to do that, you said for at least 10 years, that's that's really crazy. And do you think it's like uh this is maybe a little bit philosophical question. I don't know how much you want to get into that stuff, but do you think like it was destined to happen or like it was fate or something? Or do you believe in free will? Let's say, do you think like there was a way for you to not get here or just knowing you and your unique combination of genes and what you wanted to do and what you love, it was like it was inevitable for it to get to where you're at now. What's your own opinion on this? I think it's what I'm supposed to do. >> Mhm. >> But I don't think that it would have been inevitable because if I didn't work very hard on it, it would absolutely not happen. >> Like it wouldn't be very hard to make this fail. Yeah. So, it feels like what I'm supposed to do and the longer I do it, the more things seem to align to like clear a path for it to happen, right? >> Which is there's just certain things that happen. Like you could call them coincidences or serendipity, whatever. Mhm. >> Um, but you know, when you're starting out on something, especially as far back as when I was starting out in school, you don't even know who you're going to be competing with or what the market's going to look like or if people are even going you don't even really know what you're building in a way. And so, you know, there's just a lot of like blind faith, I guess. Um, and things do seem to be moving in favor of it. >> Mhm. >> And it just there is like a feeling I've got that this is what I'm supposed to do. My wife kind of felt the same thing, too. Um, but yeah, it's definitely not like this is just inevitable. If I stop showing up, it would fail pretty quick. >> That's a that's a great answer. The reason I asked this because there is this quot that says um you can do what you will, but you cannot will what you will, right? So kind of you're saying that yes, but um do you think and I know that this is a completely theoretical question, so you probably don't know. So it's more of like just your opinion, but um I understand that if you didn't work this hard, this wouldn't happen. But the question is, could you not work this hard for this? That's the question. Wasn't it harder to not work hard than to work hard for you looking back? Um I I don't know like >> I know it's a >> I don't I try not to think about things like this softly. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No, I think my my perspective is that you couldn't like it's because why most people you couldn't not do it basically. >> But my perspective is who cares. >> Yeah. True. >> That's like Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. No interesting. Yeah. Um the the main thing is that that you got here that that makes sense. But yeah um again no one cares but I think just like it's my opinion that um it kind of was supposed to happen and I think that's what you are I don't want to put words into your mouth but I think that's what kind of you are saying that you you feel that this is what you're supposed to do. I think that's kind of what it is that that whatever that is is is what got you here because if if you didn't like if you didn't want this enough then you would just stop for a very long time ago you know but again I agree with you who cares you are here you achieved it and now that the focus on is on what what's next and on this question do you think that like it's a trait of successful people that they never stop and they never they always look like forward for example if you were someone that reflected too much about those things then maybe after you made your first $1 million or $10 million, you would just stop and it's always through like you're going to keep going because you like the process, you enjoy what you do. Um, do you think it's like expected of successful people like from what you have seen because you you have worked with a lot of clients when you had uh the consulting company and you probably have seen a lot of successful people in your life. Do you think all of them or most of them are that way? Like no matter what they accomplish, it's always about what's next, what's better and that drive is always there to keep going. I think so it's possible to do both like to kind of appreciate or like have gratitude or look back and also at the same time or no you need to be dissatisfied a little bit all the time to for you to have the motivation. See, I don't really see it like that where it's like dissatisfaction is because that's very negative way that's driving, >> right? Um it's more like I'm excited >> to make it better. >> Okay. >> Cuz I use it myself. There's little things about it that frustrate me. There's things I've wanted to add to it >> for since I started it like five years ago. So, >> Mhm. >> It's just personal excitement. >> Mhm. >> Not dissatisfaction. And there's definitely gratitude. >> Mhm. >> It's just not gratitude that means that I should just stop for a little bit and like just be grateful. It's more like I'm very grateful that we now have the resources like the talent and the the team and the and the money to to take on the next challenge. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. Yeah. That that's an interesting. Could you say would you say that like and I think that it's you are right because that would be my opinion on looking at you that you love this and you're excited but at the same time wouldn't you say there might be some I don't know if dissatisfaction is the right word but like some dissatisfaction that the product isn't as good as you envision it kind of or no it's just that no you are excited to make it that good although I think it probably doesn't matter as much but really curious yeah like I do think the positive ones are quite um I do think they're more motivating honestly >> at least for me. But I I do think for like everyone in general like if you're trying to lead a good culture by fear and negative emotions >> like good luck. Mhm. >> Um and you know talent >> like that >> very often people you can't force them and like to to do to work hard, right? >> Mhm. >> Like they're not going to tolerate that cuz they can work wherever the hell they want. >> So the the only way to really get people motivated is to to make it fun and fulfilling. >> Um >> you mean was I always like that? >> Yeah. Were you so let's say when you started uh like your first business or when you were growing consulting.com like uh was it also the love of it or at that stage there was more of like hating not having options or living where you don't want to live or u like even just the thought of being at the 9 to5 and you wanted to be full-time on something like would you say it's when you start you for you at least was it more of the negative energy and over time it it translated to positive or were you always motivated with the love of what you do. >> The only times I've done well is when I've loved doing what I do. >> Generally, all the problems come when I'm like >> not motivated. Yeah. Or doing it for like negative reasons or something. >> Mhm. Interesting. Okay. Cool. No, I think it's uh you are right like just when you even share that you like the climb more than the view, right? It's kind of proof of that that you just like the the process and building things and doing something that feels exciting. So that makes a lot of sense. Um, >> yeah. And there's even this there's this photo I've got which I've like >> I keep on my desktop to look at like all the time >> because it and it was quite helpful for me when I >> was trying to figure out like what do I love? Like what am I good at? Like what is my thing? And I would talk to my parents and look back through old photos and stuff and just think back through my life experience. And this >> Mhm. >> was my first like computer. >> Mhm. >> And you know, I got it connected to the internet. This is pre Google. And so, >> you know, like you can see the old school phone and CDs and things. Um, but you can see I've got like my arm around it, right? >> Mhm. >> Well, you people don't usually do that with their computer. their computer isn't something that they hug. But I was on this thing all the time and from the very first moment I touched a computer, it was honestly like kind of meant to be, I think. >> Mhm. >> Um >> and then I just have experienced the whole internet since pre Google. Um but you know, but even back then I was just doing it cuz I loved it. >> Mhm. And so to me, just messing around with the computer and the internet and and finding like subcultures and communities and different different things people are obsessed about. >> Yeah, >> that I would do that even if I didn't get paid. >> Um, and I've always been doing that. So, you know, going to make an app and then to like start making money online and helping other people do it and then to make this. It's all just kind of a natural progression of that. Um, it's just that, you know, back then I thought of it more and everyone did more of a distraction than an act than what could become my career, right? Mhm. >> Cuz I'm screwing around on computers or building race cars or whatever. And you know, I'm not doing my homework. I'm not studying. I'm not trying to get a better grade at university. >> Yeah. >> And parents and teachers think that that's not good. It's not paying me either. I'm actually spending all my money on it. Um but sometimes the distraction is the answer. >> Mhm. Yeah. I've seen you talk about it. It's actually very good. I thank you for sharing that picture. Uh it's What year was that? It was 1990s, right? >> I don't know the exact year, but it was pre Google like and so it's got to be before 1995. >> Okay, cool. Yeah. I wasn't even born basically. And you already loved computing. >> I've been I've been obsessing about these things for a long time. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know that's kind of what ties to to what I spent um like I I asked you a couple minutes ago. We won't get into it again but about like could you not do that and kind of this is kind of an answer because again you can see that it was kind of in you right like you're just love of doing this is so obsessive is that I think it was just there and that's what of course like if you actively tried to not work hard or like uh if you didn't want to achieve it of course it took some decisions choices sacrifices but >> I could definitely not work hard that wouldn't be hard >> oh really you think you can >> well it's a choice to build this versus just participate on it, right? >> Okay. Yeah. No, that's true. >> I was just participating on it before. >> And I can effortlessly do that. But if you're making a choice to build it >> for everyone, I mean, that's a whole another thing. >> Yes. Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah. No, that's that's really beautiful. And >> but it would be very easy for me not to work. Very hard. >> Very easy. >> Yeah. I mean >> Oh, seriously. It's like you won't be bored knowing you. Like if you do nothing for six months, let's say. >> Well, it's not nothing. I just might not be working. I might be doing something else. >> Oh, okay. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Cool. Interesting. Yeah. No, >> I would just get a project like a I'd build a race car or or um learn how to fly a sea plane or something. And >> Mhm. >> I would just find something like >> I I like to make things and tinker with things. >> Mhm. That's actually interesting. And I I think I see your point now that like you like building, but who says that you had to build this? Now you could build other things. Would you say then then if someone finds what they love? Would you recommend to most people to like have a bigger goal? Because like I think it's going to I don't know some people say this or mostly say this. I don't know if you agree with this or not that it takes sometimes the same amount of time or work to build a big thing or a small thing you still are going to have problems uh have be depressed some days don't want to work have ups downs even if you work on something small or big so would you say if you like if you find something that you like doing or say building you are probably going to equally like building smaller things or like in your case something big like school or you wouldn't you would say no it's more nuanced maybe building something big is harder so then it's not the path for everyone for example but that I understand that you would recommend people to do what they love. So let's say they find they like building. Okay, cool. What about like would you say it's a still looking back at your life? Your advice to your younger self or to anyone that you know is ambitious would be if you found what you like just see how much how big can you think in realistic um boundaries? Well, it's kind of complicated, more complicated than just do what you love. But I think there's definitely something to that which is like >> if you don't love it, you're probably going to quit and then you're not going to succeed, right? >> Um like if I became a lawyer, >> I I I hate looking at legal contracts and paperwork. >> Oh. So, you know, when people when I say I've worked very hard for a long time, some people might be like, I could never do that. But I could never do that kind of work. Even one hour is excruciating for me. >> Mhm. >> Right. So, the type of work changes everything. But I bet you those same people that are like, "Oh, I could never work that hard." >> They're probably like they might be playing Counterstrike >> for the same amount of hours. They just are thinking of it what they think is work like and distraction like what if the distraction was the work is right. >> Um so what was your question about thinking like would you say that? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, so if you it's kind of complicated too because I like to make things like I I used to build race cars and and things like that, but I didn't know you could translate those skills to something else. And I also liked computers, but you know, just making race cars was not making money. >> Just screwing around on the internet or playing with computers wasn't making money. But you can apply those skills of like building and making things and solving problems to like the field of the internet which like and technology and computers and then and then you need the entrepreneurship side too which is like you've got to be solving a problem. There's got to be a market. There need there's some numbers there obviously. And so like it's it's at the core there's passion and at the core you're working naturally with your strengths, right? But it's nuance to making it like commercially successful, right? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So that's kind of what what I think is if you can work with those things. Um and yeah, because you know when I think back like I was a psycho about like optimizing things like >> with my race car stuff, I would be like stripping the as much weight as possible from the car. Like looking at every place that I like, can I remove this thing? Can I take that out? Can I strip that? I loved cutting weight >> and I loved like trying to squeeze more performance out of it in any different way and you find these clever ways to do it. >> Mhm. >> Um I do the same thing in business. I love to cut weight, right? Weight is like complexity, overhead, cost. Any any chance I can, I love to cut it. I like to be very light. And then performance, too. You're trying to squeeze performance. So optimizing things and then when I would play Counter Strike and stuff, I'd like benchmark every ISP for ping like latency and things >> and I would find the best one and then I would I would um find like the best router, the best like DNS settings and then I'd use Ethernet and I'd even put the router close to the port on my wall and make sure that that one on the wall was closest to the connection. to the phone line and then I put and then I would I tore down my whole computer >> and rebuilt it all back up like water cooled everything just to get that little edge. >> Um and you know so I that that I was doing even without getting paid so like that should be my approach to business for example. >> Um so that's what I mean by like work with your passion. >> Yeah. Right. >> Um like I have to be making something. I will not be happy doing services for for certain and it has to be very complicated otherwise I'll get bored. >> Mhm. >> And there has to be so much room for for like optimization. >> Um and it almost has to be unfathomably hard that I can almost never quite figure it out >> because that way I can never like master it. >> Um because at that point you get bored then well I get bored but then the your the other part of your question was um around like big size >> that people should set like some people should really think about what they want. >> Um because I swear most people are just they just want to like work from home and have a good lifestyle. And I think that's that's true. I I I think that and I don't even think they're wrong in in doing that. >> Like what is wrong with that? >> Nothing. Yeah. If that's their goal, why not? >> Yeah. Like most people want to have families. And when you want to have a family, you kind of want to own a house cuz it's stable and you want to spend a lot of time with your children >> and you want to hang out with your friends. >> Mhm. And so that means that you don't want to like work like a psychopath, >> right? And you also don't want to deal with stress all the time, which >> and so I think a lot of people torture themselves by like really they want that but they've like watched too many motivational videos or some and they think they want to be they they think they want to like do something crazy and like and they're they're torn between the two, right? Mhm. >> So, if you if you're just more realistic or honest with yourself about what you really want, like let's say you just want a a good lifestyle and to to do work that's meaningful. Maybe you only need to make like 10, 20, 30 grand a month or something, right? And then you can build a very different business that's very low stress. You can do that with no employees, working not many hours a week without even being stressed. >> Mhm. If you want to build something like this, >> it's a whole another thing. Like, you're going to be stressed as hell and it's really hard and there's a lot of sacrifices that need to be made. Um, yeah. So, this is the lifestyle. This isn't I'm not building school for a lifestyle. This is >> This is the lifestyle. Yeah. >> But you also do have a family though, to be fair. You have family, you have kids, you have good relationships with people, you you have great relationships with people that you work. So, it's kind of a combining the social factor probably. I know that you like working with the people that you uh work with as far as I know. So, like and you're also building something big. So, that's what's interesting uh about it. But yeah, no, I think it's a it's a great answer. You know what stood out to me when you were talking? You said you covered a lot of things that was very good. But one of them was you said, "Oh yeah, um, and I also like complicated things because if they're not complicated enough, I get bored." And I think that was a great detail that you kind of revealed there because you actually like that. Maybe you like complicated things. So that means that you probably should build big big things because there will be more complicated. So actually in a very weird way, it will make you like it more, right? Or be less bored. So maybe that's the answer. At least like how I think if if someone is if someone likes what they do but they don't like complexity or they can't handle stress or they just want to enjoy more simpler things maybe they just need to do what they love and as you said minimize like uh the the overhead right the downside and just live a simple life and just enjoy it. If someone um has stress tolerance or maybe they also are pretty I don't know if intellectual is the right word but like they just like complex things they like that maybe they should build something big. Um would you say that's a good good takeaway or >> you can find complexity without building something big by the way like you could just you know you could um like learn to code or you could make something as a hobby right like that there's there's making things and solving problems and then there's making a company that's big >> and that's just a different thing honestly I don't know how many people want to have a big company it's not that great to be honest. Like >> yeah, >> it's it's hard. It's stressful and um >> and the bigger you get, the harder and more stressful it seems to get. So >> yeah. Do you think that the level that that that was very good? Do you think that the level that school is at right now like do you think companies like I don't know Google or Amazon or Tesla or others do you think it's like completely different level of complexity or do you think past a certain point it's kind of the same? >> 100%. I've got no interest in doing what Elon Musk does. Forget that. Right. So, I might be doing something that to a lot of people challenging, but I've got no interest in that. I don't want to figure out space exploration. I don't want to manufacture a new type of car to be honest. Like, that's something else. Um, and that's what I mean. I don't want to make something that big. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. But it might also because I'm not interested in that. >> I like cars and >> but I just have no interest in in figuring out production. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Do you think it is do you think it is more far away to go from like zero to the very big company big level high level that school is at or is it in your opinion harder to go from where school is it to like I don't know um to a trillion dollar company like Amazon or or what would you say trillion dollar company I don't even know how many of those there are these Is there like five? >> Yeah. Yeah, multiple probably. Yeah, >> I think so. >> Um, >> so I don't really think it's a question of hardness. It's more of a question of like market size honestly. >> So like you know Google is like the internet. Okay, pretty big. >> Um, Apple it's like an operating system. Microsoft operating system. So you know operating systems everyone has one. >> I think the penetration of computers and phones is 1.5 per person. >> So >> Okay. Interesting. >> Yeah. So when you can 150% penetrate earth. >> You're going to be trillion dollars, right? >> Yeah. >> Um and then you know what what about Nvidia? Well, that's the graphics card which is in every damn computer which there's 1.5 of them. >> So like see what I mean? >> School school is used by all these devices as well. >> Well, I don't know if school will get to 1.5 accounts per person on Earth. >> No, probably no. Probably not. Yeah. >> I don't what? Yeah. Um, so that's what I mean. >> Mhm. Makes sense. >> Yeah. Interesting. But if you look at like let's say someone like Elon Musk, he probably doesn't love what he does every day. So in his case, it's probably a very big pain or purpose or reason or something that he wants to do or why that he wants to accomplish. So it's probably >> Oh, I think he does like it. >> Yeah, for for certain. >> He's like a builder. I don't think he likes a lot of the things that happen as a byproduct of it. Um, >> yeah, >> you can tell no one will bother to learn the details >> unless they they'd like it, right? >> Mhm. >> No, that's true. I think that yeah, like probably I wouldn't be able to tell if he does or not. It's just that for from my perspective, which I'm very far from him, it's like um I think how can you enjoy it, right? How can you enjoy that level of complexity or or hardship? If he does it, then probably something keeps him going, which is he finds some some excitement in the process most likely. What's the what do you think is the uh entrepreneur that you learned the most from? I know you learned from Jeff Bezos for from Amazon for the long-term principles for uh like just looking at what are the few core things that if you do like like for Amazon the fastest delivery, the widest selection of products, the cheapest products, etc. And now you kind of implemented that mindset for for school I think and you also took away some design elements from Tesla the settings I think you shared before but what do you think from all these companies I don't know Jeff Bezos Elon Musk Mark Zuckerberg I don't know who do you think um who do you think has the most wisdom to learn from like who is the who whose lessons were the most applicable for you to when it came to building school that you found the most relevant I don't know if I can say one was the best or the most, but like they're all kind of equal. Like I mean Google I learned a ton from >> Mhm. >> because I just used it and I experienced the internet pre Google and then the whole arc of it, right? >> Google for sure. >> Um Facebook for sure because again I grew up with it and I saw I was on MySpace and then before that MSN, right? Um >> I don't even know what th those are by >> um and then you know forums I use that before Facebook groups right and then I watched Facebook groups come in. So like knowing the history and having been a user of it it it teaches you a lot I think. >> Um so there's like Facebook, there's Google, there's um Apple, like Steve Jobs. Mhm. >> Steve Jobs is pretty good because he's very obsessed about the product and proves that you don't have to be like a businessman, right? >> Okay. >> Yeah, >> that is that is really cool. If we if we sorry to cut you off if we can focus on that. >> Aren't the best people not really businessmen? >> They aren't businessmen. That's interesting. >> Interesting. who for example, let's say um let's say Jeff Bezos isn't >> Yeah, >> Jeff Bezos is more of a businessman. >> Um but there's this side to him too like you can see like doing the rocket thing and like >> Yeah. that I think he's got this like just passion for like um for making things and solving problems and >> and dealing with complexity >> um but you know if you look at like Zuckerberg he didn't want to build a business um >> Mhm. >> and Elon didn't really want to build a business he wanted to make a car right or or something. Mhm. >> Uh Steve Jobs didn't really want to make a business. He wanted to make a computer. Um >> and so there's definitely a huge lesson in that. The business is like the byproduct really. >> Yeah. No, that's interesting. I think you are correct. Like I watch football or soccer a lot. Um and like for me the best players there, Messi or like uh in baseball it's probably Jordan and others. And I think these people also love the game, right? Like they probably didn't. >> Did Michael Jordan want to make money? Was he a businessman? >> Uh, probably not. I think he wanted, but not as the number one priority. No, but he funnily enough, he ended up being becoming the richest athlete. >> Exactly. Like three or four billion, I think. So yeah, that's that's really interesting. Yeah. No, I think there is some truth to it. Definitely. Um, yeah, >> they followed their passion. >> Mhm. Yeah. Not >> at the highest levels, that's actually what it's like. >> Um, but yeah, in the absence of a passion, you have to invent something, right? >> Do you still need to be disciplined? Do you think you still need to be disciplined? Because I think when I, by the way, I love this. I love passion. Like I'm passionate about what I do. Like I've stopped other companies that were making me money. I went to zero for several months would achieve greatness before I started passion. Like you like I love my wife and children, right? >> Yeah. >> Does that also require discipline? >> Depends. >> What will happen to the love if there isn't some discipline? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. No, I do. I do. That's good. Mhm. Yeah, like I'm asking because I think loyal and faithful, right, with a wife is very important. Same thing with your passion. If you >> on your passion, if you're like hopping, >> um, >> you won't have that passion. >> This is actually very good. I've never heard someone explain it this way because most people when they talk about passion, they think it's like pleasure or like just every day having fun or happiness 24/7 in what you do, right? But sometimes you don't want to work on a certain task or hire someone or do something boring. But you are saying then if you actually love it, you want you will be disciplined to do these things because one isn't possible without the other. >> Yeah. And you know, I think maybe you've you've it requires a lot of I I almost I call it like soularching in a way because >> Mhm. I've done so many different things that it was very hard to find the common thread between them all which was which I had to like dig deep into to find like my thing cuz I've done build building race cars and rock climbing and Counter Strike and building computers and making software and doing online courses and things like I've done so much stuff. Um, what is my thing? Um, because maybe you could just say, well, I just want to be able to do like anything or switch between things. But that's actually true. I need to be able to switch between things. But that's why something like school is great because there's so many things. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Um, >> it's a I mean maybe people are I try not to think too hard about this stuff like this theoretical thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because to me there's just the thing I really like. I like the computer. >> I like the internet. >> Mhm. >> And I like weirdos that are obsessed about weird things. Right. >> Like beekeeping. If someone just is obsessed about that, that's really cool. I think skateboarding, like even tattooing or graffiti or painting or I don't care what it is, but I just think there's something really cool when people are really obsessed about something. And I love seeing the subcultures and communities that form around those things. And I think the that's what the internet's great at doing. And I think and then the computer is what makes the internet possible. So like that whole stack of things. I love that a lot. Um yeah. Yeah. Very good answer. So basically don't not don't analyze why you like something or like if you just like it basically or just pay attention and if you find something that you like then just do it basically and find do what you really care about. >> Yeah. Why are you analyzing things so much? I'm curious. >> Yeah. I don't know. It's I'm I'm like that. I need to know why or like I Yeah, I get >> I guess because we're trying to teach people or something. >> Maybe. Maybe. >> Yeah. >> Like I I love coaching. >> That's the nice thing. >> Yeah, that's the nice thing for me about not doing that is because I don't need to think about it. >> That is I love coaching. Like I love coaching. I I was in in the US um last month and when we met as well but and I spent time with my family etc. So I spent less time on business. But once I came back like there were a few coaching calls scheduled on my calendar. So I wasn't as excited about doing them. But once I did the first one although I talked a lot during the first hour like I felt so good. I felt like so purposeful at least at this stage of my life. So I think I love coaching. I like it. So probably that's why I want to understand why so I can explain. Maybe that's a interesting observation but I don't know. Yeah. So cool. No it's it's a great it's a great answer. I actually love that. Also the lesson from this I think is like either way like what's the what's the what is the worst case of you doing something that you love like you just enjoy the process you enjoy the journey enjoy the climb it's awesome and what's the best case scenario you enjoy the journey and then you also end up building something big right like >> I think you're looking the wrong way what's the best case scenario of grinding doing something you hate >> still hate Okay. True. Mhm. Inversion thinking. I like it. Okay. >> Well, no. It's interesting that you're looking at this side >> and analyzing the worst case when the other one's best case sucks. >> So, >> I never I never consider doing something I hate. Like, I always did something I love actually. >> It should just be common sense really. Yeah. >> Yeah. But it's not as common though, by the way. like from the people I see u that even a lot of >> tell me how why is this the case I don't understand >> I don't know I have no clue either but I think people probably don't trust themselves or like they there's too much noise around them or they consume too much content they don't have enough time to really listen what what their voice or intuition or feelings are telling them on what is the right path because they just listen to all this conflicting advice on what they should do and kind of to people that have got to got more authority to than them and I think it just makes them more lost probably. I don't know. >> Yeah. No, I think you're probably right. Something to do with like social media and living someone else's life. >> Mhm. >> Um and listening to other people's advice. Yeah, it's hard because you should definitely listen to advice, but it can really get you stuck if you don't listen to your own voice. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> True. No. Yeah, I agree. I think that is I don't know, but probably that is the case. It's like people consume too much and I do as well but like too much information and then you don't know you know which it's harder to trust yourself kind of. Um yeah interesting and on this on this note like you you said about the the business like you basically from what I see how you are building school is you you are focused on like building the best product for the most people for the cheapest prices or fees if I'm not mistaken where when did you have that realization because I think no one is thinking that way because it's very hard like it's way easier let's say a lot of people watching this will be school community owners coaches consult consultants, creators, um, whatever, right? It's so much harder to focus on how do I make the best thing versus, oh, what what content should I post to make a sale, right? In that stages, like it's so much easier to or at least that's what I think. It's it's so much harder to focus on how can I actually build the most valuable thing because sometimes there's this like it's not as intuitive. It makes a lot of sense that if you do a lot of good, it comes back to you. But did you always have that or was it more in the beginning let's say with uh the consulting company focus on marketing and sales and learning skills and getting clients and then over time once you have some momentum and you have some feedback you focus more on and you actually have the resources build something really meaningful that is going to uh be the best product out there. Would you say you should focus on that from the very beginning? Did you focus on that for very beginning for consulting.com or school or both or was it different for these two companies and what you optimize for in the beginning sales or marketing or actually thinking this carefully of what are the few variables that school has Amazon has other companies that if you just do that then everything else becomes kind of irrelevant. >> Yeah. I think you should always look for the things. So for example car racing it was weight >> and horsepower. Mhm. >> Right. Obviously, there's handling and things too and talented at at actually racing, but but the raw math of the the machine is like it's horsepower to weight ratio actually, right? Um and so like fees, price, weight, and power is like product and things, right? like so how can I make something really powerful really good and make it really cheap um so like plus people like those things right I can't imagine people coming up to me and thanking me saying thank you Sam for making school so expensive right um so it's pretty and it's not going to change like AI is not going to change that you know nothing's going to change the fact that people feel good when they pay less money for something. Um, so it's it's it's forever. Um, and good stuff. People love good stuff. People aren't going to say, "Oh, I love this thing. It's so shit." >> Um, right. >> But most people don't think that way though, do they? Like most companies, they don't think that way. They just think about how to make as much money as possible in a month or in a year. >> Yeah. But then they then they just fail. Mhm. >> I think the classic example that like a lot of these old chocolate companies like Hershey's and whatever, there's a bunch of other ones. Um, but you know, they just kept stripping the real ingredients out and replacing it with palm oil and crap to make it cheaper. So, they were like literally making it worse and making it more expensive at the same time >> while just stripping out the quality to to make them more money. >> Mh. Right? Like that's insane. Boeing is a famous example of that. So Boeing airplanes have the mission statement to make the world's best airplane. That's why people join Boeing to make the world's best airplanes. They did. They were the most valuable company on earth when they had that as their mission. Someone changed it to like maximize shareholder value, right? They did that and now they suck. Um, so you know like making something good and delivering at a good price is and I think you know it people might get confused when you're in services though >> because when it's a product it's it can be a lot more clearly defined. >> Mhm. >> But with services it's kind of the same in a way too like I think the talent of the person is the quality of the product. Right. So, if I'm in services, all I'm going to think is, how can I just be the best at what I do? Because if you do that, you don't even need to do anything else. You don't need a website. You don't need social media. You don't need to do any marketing. >> Everyone will want to hire you. >> Mhm. >> And you will only be able to work with a few people anyway. >> It's so good. It is. You predicted my next question which is like if you are into service or like coaching or consulting or because a lot of people watching this are right what including me what would be yeah that and it is becoming the best >> yeah talent is becoming better interesting was that what you were focused on in consulting.com I have seen you in your uh previous YouTube videos which you don't love as much but they were really good okay you you used to say in that videos in one of them that you are optimizing for client results Right. So, like what would that be? >> I think the reason why the videos were good and stuff is because partly because I like didn't want to make them and I spent all my time like trying to find better ways of doing things, right? It's like how can I run this business with less parts, less complexity, less people, more profit margins, less stress, like trying to find this optimal configuration. >> Mh. >> And then I would just, you know, and I might spend a year like tweaking things, finding this thing, and then I'd just be like, "Hey, look, here's what I found." And then it works cuz >> it was based on real experience. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, but you know, if you do like making videos too, >> Mhm. >> those videos will be way more successful because there's little things you can do like the thumbnails and titles and things like that. >> Um, >> yeah, I do think that if you're in services, talent's the most important thing. >> Um, in fact, talent is the most important thing anyway, even when you're trying to make a product, because it's talent that makes the product, right? Mhm. >> So, I think if you're if you're like young and wondering what you should do, like just get really good at something that you like. If you're a great editor, like video editor, great skill. If you're great at making content or designing or um coding or, you know, all kinds of things, right? Even sales, marketing. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And then Yeah. >> If you're really good at doing something, you'll be able to make the best course. You'll crush on YouTube without even trying. >> Mhm. >> Right. Because >> Yes. >> Yeah. So, I think people can get a little bit confused with that. And that's actually why I like to kind of subtract it from the equation. I'm like, how do I not do it and still succeed? Um actually you are right like I think that everyone that is actually very very good at what they do they always have more demand than they can handle and they just keep I don't know either increasing prices or like they just like that's what happens right all the time. Um, so I think it's a good indication. It's a great answer because most people like people, a lot of people watching this are going to be again creators, coaches, consultants, school community owners, etc. Entrepreneurs and a lot of them are focused on the tactics, right? Like what's the tactics? Should I post like 5-second Instagram res or 7second? They're like this. But if you just spend all that time and obsession on as as a priority to actually becoming very good what they at what you do, I think it's the one thing that kind of affects everything else that you do. If you then will make Instagram res, they will be better because you are better and your like um advice or tips or strategies are better, right? So would that be your number one advice to entrepreneurs, community owners, creators watching this like be the best like and how someone does that though? Like is it a repetition? Is it again coming back probably loving what you do? So you actually time. Okay. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. It's always time. Um, but in order to do the time, you you tend to it it needs to be something you want to do, you enjoy doing, right? >> So, I think it's a combination of those things. I think it's actually natural. Like, if you love playing Counter-Strike, you're going to clock up those hours fast >> without trying, right? And what's going to happen as an as a byproduct of you liking Counterstrike? Well, you you're going to clock hours and you're going to be good. Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. Okay. Yeah. No, I agree. I think this is this is really very good answer. Would you say that like um if you start I know that you I don't know maybe you can you will have a different perspective on this but if someone is watching this because you I think less people watching this would be interested in building a multi-billion dollar startup which school is going to be more people will be interested in I think a lot of people watching this aren't as much beginners so they would maybe build people making 10k a month 20 30 50 that want to scale to 100 or scale from 100k plus more and let's assume that they love what they they're passionate about it because for full transparency, most people watching this are going to like what love what you do because that's what I talk about all the time and that's what we attract. So let's say that they already like what they do and they want to scale and build something big like you did with with the consulting company. What would be a few like pillars that you would recommend them to focus if they already have a niche, they love what you do. If you started again in today's marketplace, would you focus on becoming the best right at solving the problem? uh the talent, improving yourself. What would be other few pillars you would focus on? Like brand, content creation, either probably partnering with someone, >> get really good, right? >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Get really good at what you do. And if you really think you're that good, improve the industry for everyone. >> How does someone do it? It's like through products, through content, through trainings, through >> Well, that depends on what needs to be done, >> right? So let's say you started in the same niche like you started in uh helping consultants scale uh and you are not going to build a product. How would you do it? Would it be yeah trainings, courses, videos? How would you go about it? >> Well, I would be like why can't they scale? What is the problem? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Most of the time traffic. So they don't have traffic. Like it's it's a little bit unrealistic, I think. And maybe it's a limiting belief, but don't you think it's a little bit unrealistic for everyone to become the best at what they do? So probably a lot of them will still need some more traffic and marketing skills and other things to be. >> But didn't we just kind of say before that they wouldn't even need traffic if they were talented? >> Yeah. What if they are not talented and they want to scale? >> Maybe that's the problem. >> Okay. >> Maybe they don't even like what they do and that's why they're not talented. >> Okay. Let's say they like what they do. Let's say they like what they do and they are talented. What else would you focus on? >> Because I think you are right. But I think >> they just need to keep going. Do it more. >> Okay. That's that's a good answer. Okay. >> Well, I didn't do for at least a year. Like I didn't make any money for at least a year. >> I think I basically sucked for the first 10. Okay. >> And then >> Yeah. Yeah, it took me almost 15 years to get good >> and then I who knows what I'll think in another five or 10. I might think, I wasn't really that good then, right? >> You just don't know what you don't know. >> Mhm. >> I don't I think a lot of people haven't seen what good really looks like. >> I think that's actually the problem >> now that you're making me think about it. Yeah, >> it's that people think they're good. >> Mhm. >> But maybe they aren't. And >> maybe that's the problem. And the only cuz it's you don't know what hot or cold is without contrast comparison, right? >> And so and I do remember reading this somewhere. It was like experiencing great >> is one of the most important things. It's like you can only whenever you're making something, you're drawing from this library of of information you have internally, right? So art, like if you're making art, you've looked at art. If you're writing, you've read, you know, and if you haven't consumed the best, you don't really know what good looks like. Um, and so, and I've always had a natural kind of pull to this. Like, I don't even care what it is, even if it's not relevant. I'm really curious about what the like forefront of something is like, like what is the I do this with like music, for example. I have the best speakers in the world. I actually went to the effort of finding them. The ones they use at like the best recording studios in the world like Abbey Road and things. Um, and I wanted to experience what music, what my favorite music sounds like on the best speakers in the world and if I could tell the difference. >> Mhm. >> Right. Cuz there's this gap. But most people don't know that it's just music. It's just sound. Right. >> But there's a lot of detail in there. And then like why is some music better than other music? Like how what went into making that or even with food? And I found I hate cooking and I'm not a big foodie, but I still was curious about what went into making the best restaurant. And do you know what I found? It's >> soil. Like so the best restaurants in the world own their own farms and they chose their farms based on the soil. >> Okay. >> What makes the best farm? The best soil. >> Mhm. So, you know, it comes >> makes the best soil. Let's go. >> It's like biodiversity over time. So, like, you know, if it's been a monoculture like pesticide farm, that soil's wrecked, right? If it's been a concrete tennis court and they ripped it up, now they're trying to put it terrible. But if it's been this like very healthy diverse ecosystem of things, animals, plants, you know, water, like bees, all of that crap. Um, and no one's put like pesticides on it. Then there's a lot of like richness in the soil like worms and layers of decomposing >> things which creates like nutrients in in life. And then obviously when you put animals on there and they eat it, their meat is better and right all the way through. >> So I think and then I looked at like Leonardo da Vinci in painting. He learned he learned chemistry just so he could mix his own pigments and for his paints and he dissected eyes at the morg just so he could understand light and how it like refracts so he could so you know this is the kind of thing I'm getting at. It's when you explore the best and what goes into it. I think you what you find is the same thing. It's just vast depth and those people just just went a lot further, right? >> Everyone. Yeah. >> Like you know, you might get into making food a restaurant, but you're like, you never thought you needed to have a farm. >> Um >> yeah, >> you might have a farm, but you might have chose the wrong soil, right? It's just and you know I think um and I found this with race car drivers with with like everything honestly um it's just very there's a lot of depth and a lot of like obsession and they're pushing the field forward. So it's like because of them the whole thing the whole industry move forward right because they're at the forefront of it. Um, and so yeah, I would I would really like just look at what you're passionate about and that can take some time. Like you're not just going to sit down with chat GPT and figure that one out. >> Mhm. >> Um, in fact, that might make it a lot harder. Um, >> and so, you know, find the thing you're passionate about. There's a lot of clues in your life if you look back. Um, and then if you do that, then you'll probably want to do it and do it a lot. And if you do that, you'll probably be very good. And if you really love it, you might go quite far. Yeah. And it's okay if you aren't like not everyone can be the best. And but that's totally fine because I don't think most people want to anyway if they're really like honest because of what goes into it. they care more about other things. >> That's totally fine, too. You don't have to be. You can still be really talented at something and not be the best. Yeah. >> Very good. Yeah. I love the depth of your answers. It's it's really very helpful. I think that um one thing that stood out to me which which which is interesting is I do love what I do and like it's not even a question. I actually made this mistake two times. So, I started with Faceless YouTube channels. I was making like multi five figures a month when I was like 19, 29, 22, soon to be 23 and I hated it. I just wanted to like stop. I wasn't fulfilling. Then I found another business. I grew it and I stopped it again. And now only from the third time I was smart enough to start achieve greatness which I love. But one thing that really helped me a lot as well when you were talking is like you mentioned this two or more times today which is moving the industry forward. That is a really interesting thing to say because I I I have to admit like I was quite selfish before this interview because I was thinking oh like my company my clients I was still thinking about doing what I love maximizing the client results and that's by doing more good how that's what's going to be good for me as well but I was always like looking at myself as like that's just me and my company and my clients right but that's interesting when you say industry like I haven't thought about it but that actually is motivating just the thought of that you can do something that can have some impact on the industry itself like it is really it makes me think even like wider or bigger if that makes sense a little bit less selfish of you know my company my clients but how do I maybe do things that advances the industry that's really interesting how did you first like for example let me ask you this you have now we have school and there are of course some like competitors which um I don't think there's any competitor that's going to be close to school when it comes to communities But like do you want to move the industry forward as well or like do you compete with them like you don't care about them as Jeff Bezos says don't care about the competition care about the clients how do you balance all these ideas >> well I think school is kind of changing some things about how >> this is done right >> and I think it's probably fixing a lot of things that were like complicated unne necessary, maybe weird. I do think if we're successful, we're going to increase the size of this market, >> right? Make it more mainstream, >> make it so more people can participate, right? Make it more fun, >> make it more efficient, right? >> I mean, already you need a lot less tools. >> 100%. It's crazy. >> I've used it myself, by the way. I've used all the time >> just as a byproduct of making it. Is aren't we kind of doing that? >> No, you are. That is true. So like you focus on on the product and on the what the customer wants so much that >> it kind of standard. This is where it gets nuanced because if you just listen to what people want, >> it'll stay the same. >> Okay. Interesting. So who do you listen to? >> Kajjabi and Clickfunnels and things. If I just build everything people want, right? >> Oh, >> so sometimes you have to change people's behavior, which is always hard. >> Henry Ford, if I asked people what they wanted, they would say faster horses. I think he said something like that. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, you've got to change things a bit, right? >> Yeah. But that's where I think the mastery part comes in. Um, you know, like I think the I forget where I read this, but it was some like, you know, to get good, you've got to get good at like copying in a way. >> Mhm. >> But to to master something, you have to break the rules >> and be more successful than the people that copy them. That is a very hard like um >> thing to do. >> thing to do. Yeah. Because the that is the best way for a reason >> because it tends because it's the best way that someone's found so far. Um yeah, >> you need to be contrarian a little bit. Maybe bring break things down to the first principles. And >> well, I don't like just being I don't really like the word confr because it means like you're kind of taking the opposite side just >> but because sometimes the way things are is totally fine >> and let's not with that. Like let's just >> like we use dollars and credit cards and bank accounts. I'm like not in a hurry to just to like to mess with that, right? Um you know we so yeah we >> do you feel frustration is it when you feel frustration from the market or you as a user maybe don't feel like then how do you know what what to change and what is worth messing up with? What do you think school has done that was from all the things it's done was the biggest differentiator that was different than how things were done before that? >> So, so far I think there's been a few one is like this whole thing around funnels. >> Mhm. I think once we proved that you could just send traffic to an about page and it would actually outperform that changed a lot >> because it kind of just gets rid of this concept of a website >> and a funnel >> and kind of an email list and a form and all of that and that's a lot of weight just gone. >> Like if you just delete your website >> Yeah. >> that's quite freeing honestly. >> I don't have one actually. I I own achievegreatness.com. It goes to my free school community that you've I own samovvens.com. You should go to that and see where it goes. >> Okay. >> Um >> because even I went through that. I always had this website and it's always this thought like, oh, what's on there? I've got to update it. Oh, it's out of date. Like, what am I going to say there? >> Profiles. Interesting. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. >> Just getting rid of that was quite nice. Um, and if you think about it, school doesn't even really have a website. Um, >> so you know, just getting rid of that, getting rid of like funnels. I deleted my email list. I don't see any emails is really nice. Um, >> deleted your email list. >> I downloaded into a CSV file first. >> Yeah. >> Google Drive and then deleted Active Campaign and stopped paying them like two and a half grand a month. >> Um, you know, so getting rid of all of that is really nice. Um, then I think the business model is quite fundamental. So like pushing more on recurring instead of one time, right? >> Mhm. Yep. >> That's quite a fundamental change. >> Mhm. It also introduces this whole new idea of churn which was never even a thought because so that's a very fundamental change because if you people are just selling one time their ne they're always on to their next launch but when people sell recurring their number one thing is churn >> and is that better for the customer? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's actually very smart. I agree. >> Yeah. So by making some of these choices and also removing all of these possibilities like no website, no funnel, no email list, just land them in their community talking to their customer and show them churn. You know, it kind of nudges them to listen to them and make it better and to make that number go down and then their income goes up. So, it's like trying to like, you know, remove the distractions and give them the thing to focus on and in a way that's better for them and their customer in a way. And, you know, the things we're doing recently, it's like discovery and now suggestured communities in the sidebar. >> Mhm. >> Well, if we've very if we succeed in this, you might not even need to do any marketing. I mean already 20 something% comes from school. >> Some groups get 100% of their members from discovery. >> Cool. Um >> even some of the top ones get up to 50%. >> Um so right now it's a tailwind. It's not it's the only stream to some communities, but that's still better than no tailwind. Right. >> Of course. >> Yeah. >> But you can see what I'm getting at. It's like What if all you need to be is passionate about something? >> Mhm. >> What if that takes care of everything else? >> Yeah, this was very good. I love it. Yeah, true. I think in school I think from my perspective it's uh I think I agree probably always when when something like when new companies arise right they usually are a little bit less customer centric and they just do the man minimum required work to just like because it's something new and like they kind of get by and I think over time someone comes that just puts the value first and crushes everyone like you can look at at Blackberry Nokia and how iPhone kind took over or like maybe I think for like online stores or websites and how Amazon crashed it or like how YouTube crashed all the other video streaming services or I think school probably has done and continues every day to do that to the online education community kind of you know creator economy space because back then all these companies um they kind of made not bad products right it was better than nothing it definitely helped some people but then Over time they focused more towards them and their valuation probably and other things and school just came and said hey why why should we charge a lot of fees let's minimize it right why should we give all these complicated things to people let's actually remove the most options so people don't have to choose so it is simple so we increase the chances they actually use the features we do have and they succeed let's actually help our members to send them some traffic let's actually incentivize people to have good communities by ranking the best ones Right. And that and all these things kind of show that I agree those things are definitely very noticeable in in the world industry now. And um even the from others like companies or softwares or whatever a lot of them they either like try to just copy a lot of the features which is fine or they um basically it's like desperate attempts of just um find some sort of another shortcut to win when I think they won't win right no matter what they do no matter what they focus on at the end it will come to to just being the most valuable like tool or company or product to the customers, you know, and that's what school is doing. And I think it's very hard to do and I'm really surprised how consistently you have been doing it for the past years. How consistently like because it's not just one one thing, right? Like you keep doing it like you just released another uh tier for school for people don't don't know and it's just $9 a month. So it's actually more affordable now for for some tier instead of just saying how do we make another plan for 1,000 a month. That was the week after. That was the week after we dropped native video. >> Yeah. Mhm. Which was very good as well. By the way, the native video, the speed, it's like uh compared to Loom or to YouTube or to anything else that that's crazy. That really is like Yeah. Back then you needed so many tools instead of school. So many tools. Like I mean I think you don't need anything else now almost for school like payments, email list, >> live stream. Yeah. >> Live streaming. >> Yeah. Apple I think a YouTube channel is great. Like a couple of social profiles. Like even we have school news. >> Like why not? >> I love YouTube. >> But I also just like the platform and the culture and and what people do on there. >> Um and I, you know, school can't like live on its own just like YouTube can't live on its own. There's other parts to the ecosystem like the browser, the internet, the computer, right? Um, so yeah, I think there's a very natural fit with the YouTube channel in a school community or like a a social profile in a school community. >> Um, but yeah, I think that's kind of where things are headed. Like people just have a social profile in a community or maybe a few social profiles in a community. >> Um, >> yeah, I agree. And then it's just like the the only factor that I think that is possible for people to lose is that they do something they don't like or don't love. Like because if them if you're if if they are trying to shortcut the process, right? Like just pretend to be someone they are not or or to be in a niche that like they're just trying to like basically almost manipulate someone to joining their program or course or community. That's the only way that it won't work because the as >> that's why for me I can't it's got to be pure like I can't make content about it. >> Yeah. >> Unless I've done it and so >> I just forget about making content until I've I'm like thoroughly immersed in it. >> Yeah. >> Um but again that that that requires tradeoffs. Like maybe you're delaying how long it's going to take before you make some money. But I just always want to do it right. Um, and I think when you do it that way, you do go further and um, you end up being better. But the short term is what I think it's hard. Yeah, >> it's what the thing that trips everyone up. And you shared the advice, right? Like have another like minimize the expenses and have another way to make money by the meantime, whether it's a job, >> cutting cost is the easiest way. like live simple life, not much money to live very I still do that, right? Cuz it it's um why not? It's then the Yeah, sometimes it means having a job too. Um because you know if you're if you've got a family, you can't do what I did in my early days, which was live with my parents and cut my costs cuz you've got people that depend on you, right? So you've either got to raise some money or you've got to like get a job or like do something on the side like Yeah. I think fix if you're ignoring those things never leads to anything good. Like if the sooner you address those things like that's where your next breakthrough really is. >> Yeah. 100%. It's such a good advice. That's actually by the way how I grew in school. Like I went to communities. I actually cared about it. I started giving value and then people said hey like would you be our like would you start doing calls in my community like people want you back or this that and like I got into some of the biggest communities on school it was almost a year ago and I was just helping people there and they were saying oh this is great can you do more and I was loving it and I wasn't even charging for that now of course I knew that later I'm going to charge for it helps me also in the long term I I had a strategy but it it was that's how I grew because it was like I really cared and the foundation was there and that's what stood out and Now people are coming to me. Actually I had a call yesterday where someone said hey how did you grow in school so quickly like what should I host on school for someone to become a client and I said I didn't even think about that to be honest. I wanted to get clients from that community but my time frame was a year not this week or this day or this month and I also had the privilege though that I did make money from the previous businesses that was enough for me in living in my country to to not worry about it right and before that I was living with my parents. So yeah that's interesting. It's like minimizing that the cost so you don't have to make the short-term decisions. You know, you don't have to look for the shortcuts, but you actually give yourself time to build things the correct way because if you don't build it the correct way, it's just a matter of time when it falls, right? Like either your competition will be stronger and like they will beat you, either you'll get probably um demotivated and you will stop and you will quit. Like most of the time something will happen something unless like someone is a complete psychopath that is 100% materialistic and you know doesn't care maybe I mean for a short time it will work but I think long term >> well it's the compounding thing right like people don't know that like you've seen in the past like two weeks or three weeks how much stuff school can do now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Couldn't do that much stuff in a year at the beginning. Right. Um, so we just are able to move faster and also doing like unlimited native video and slashing the price tonight. Forget that at the beginning. Like good luck figuring out those economics. Um, then so like there's the compounding gives you that's where all the mastery comes from. even like I think it took us four years to get one million users and now it takes 20 days and it just keeps getting faster, right? So like but people see that now and they're like oh that's awesome but it took almost six years. >> Mhm. >> And before that by the way >> Mhm. >> I had already been working in this industry for like >> eight plus oh eight. Okay. Okay. something. I think I've been doing business how many years? Let me figure this out. Like >> Mhm. >> Yeah. It's about to be 15 years. >> 15. Crazy. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. But that's how long >> I didn't get good. I didn't get even what I would call kind of good until 10. >> 10. Interesting. >> And even now when I look back to where I was when I started school, I don't think I was that good. And that was after 10 years of experience. So it takes time to get good >> and at that time you were by the way what like at top of the consulting industry though and you are saying that at that time online consulting you weren't as good even so just just for context >> I was I was all right at being an operator but to to to >> you were better than other people than most of the competition but probably not as good as you are now. >> Yeah. Um yeah just time it takes time to be good at something. What do you think practically is the biggest difference between that sim ovens that you know made like multiate figures with consulting.com and the nowadays Sams of school like these past six years basically because you were very successful six years ago as well compared to 99.99999% of the entrepreneurs. I've got a different business, right? Like I was like a >> I had clients. >> Yeah. >> I had clients. I made content. I made trainings. >> Now I just build the containers for those things, right? Um so yeah, it's different. So is it just the vehicle that's different or do you think you got better as well or it's both? Maybe >> bitter or what? >> I don't know anything. But is there any big difference that you notice between you now and six years ago? I think now you make things more fun. For example, probably that's a big one or maybe something else. Well, it's not about me like this business isn't being like like it's not about me or my ideas or some It's like I'm kind of behind the scenes and I make the thing for these other people to shine on. Right. >> So yeah, and I think that's much better suited to me, my personality and and what I like. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> So you basically moved towards more product, you would say during this time. >> Yes. And not being a like celebrity. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> And that's one of the reasons you did partner with Hormosi that Hormosi can do it can be the the marketing. Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Yep. >> And why really curious about this? Why did you go with Hormosi? Is it like because I know that you I think Hormosi shared or you that publicly that both of you have been talking for a few years about that and I think Hormosi was he was relatively smaller than he is now although he was obviously very successful. But what made you be interested in him? What did they just saw? Did you just see? >> Well, you just hear I'd hear about him all the time. Like people saying this, that new book, Homozy's law. I mean, Hosi's launch was really the thing I was like, whoa, he's everyone is like tuned into this. >> Mhm. >> I haven't seen that happen before. And so I was like, well, I want to use that. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I was like, I can I can make use of that. >> Mhm. >> Um, and then, you know, and we're like perfect partnership because you can't do both. >> Yeah. >> I sacrificed all like content online to build this and so it um it's a perfect partnership. So, it was kind of obvious honestly like Yeah, >> I think it was. You know why? At least for me, but um I think that of course it took longer than like most people think and there's a lot like there's hard things about it probably too just in terms of the deal. But um I remember it was before the announcement I think a month ago. I actually sat down and I was writing down like who I basically I wanted to learn from like who I just respect the most who I want to learn the most from. And I have like I had this list of like 10 mentors or something online and I said, "No, like this is too much. Like if I listen to these many people, who are the like the people that everyone else references?" And I wrote down Sam Ovens and Alex Hermosi. I swear two people. I said, "I'm going to listen to to these two people and that's it." After that, two to three weeks from that Horosi made the announcement. I there was no clue. I didn't know. I'm not saying that's why you partner up. No, but like it was so like such a good combination for me like in my mind this is like the two two people and that was so good to see that you kind of came together. I think that it was a very good um kind of a very good feat. So that's that's actually pretty cool. Would you say then to for most people to go uh either like all in on kind of like Tormosi and building brand and traffic and being at what they do or like product because you said you can't do both or do you think you can do both? It's just that >> that is for product, >> right? Like that he actually I would say his main No, I think if you really think about it, his main thing is his talent, right? Why does anyone give a about almost cuz he's good at business >> number one. If he wasn't, nothing else would work. So I think and why is how do people know? Well, because of progression, right? He continues to progress. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And so that's the most important thing. If that's not there, nothing else works. That's actually what makes everything work. So then what's next? Well, I would say like his books, right? And then it's the content around that. Um, and you know, so at the far ends of it, he needs to understand things like hooks and 3C view through rates and thumbnails and retention and, you know, he needs to do all of that. But that is that's just the like the thing that makes it pop at the end. But like the books, I don't think it would work well without the books. And it absolutely everything would not work without his talent at the core. >> Yeah. Yeah, like yeah, if you think about it, you are so correct. Like first of all, I I think I heard about him first time several years ago through someone else telling me about his book. I think that's when he blew up as well in ter on content. And you are right like what is his book, his ideas, his experience, his frameworks, how does he have them? Because he made them. He's actually good. He's talented, you know. So it kind of all stems from that which is interesting. Yeah. No, I think it is a it's a good good lesson. >> Yeah. Would would your like final advice for people be uh like in terms of the talent, let's say, and passion. Uh to kind of summarize this, maybe there's some other things you want to add, maybe not, but um like basically do something you're passionate about so that you want to do it. So you do it. So you do it for a long time. So you have enough time to get good. So you become talented. And if you are talented, everything else becomes easier. Would that be a good summary of it or would you add anything to this? >> Well, I think the thing that trips everyone up is like this whole advice thing. First of all, I'm not trying to give any advice. >> Mhm. >> Right. Like >> um people should do what the hell they want. >> Um and maybe there's just things I say that people like and they pick some of those. But you know, this is where I swear there's a trap because Hormosi believes some very different things to me and he says very different things to me. Someone actually mentioned me in a post the other day and they're like Horoszi said passion doesn't matter >> Sam's and I was like oh my god this is so like who cares really like cuz we believe very different things but still we are both successful and we actually make the best partnership because of that. So that's the question you really need to start asking yourself is why do >> why can someone do the opposite thing of someone else's advice and still succeed? >> Like maybe there isn't >> maybe this whole like one best way is actually the problem. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> Mhm. >> Maybe the answer is to find your own one. M >> and you can find things from Hormosi and some things from Steve Jobs and some things from here and whatever you want. Um yeah, that would be my advice is not to take >> advice >> advice to >> it's still an advice though. There you go. >> Maybe if you apply my own advice here, you shouldn't even listen to me. But then I shouldn't listen to this advice >> which I would agree with actually like because I think you have to develop your own tastes and and yeah and until you do that you'll never be that good. So yeah. >> Mhm. True. But I think on on that one specific example, although I agree with you, probably doesn't matter. It's like Horosi does what does love what he does though. Like he says I like and I love Horosi by the way. Changed my life. He says like he he loved fitness. He got into fitness. Growth is fitness business. He loves business. That's why he's doing business all the time. And then so I think it's kind of a he does does like what he does. like why he's why he keeps going there he does like it so he's kind of passionate I think it's we're talking about the same things just people describe it differently and you I think you talked about this too that like words are not enough to describe reality like they are too simple you know so I think it's kind of the same concept or similar but we just >> what if his passion is success right >> success is hard so >> maybe that's where it's confusing you Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Because in order to do what you love, you've got to do something that's hard. In order to do what's hard, you've got to like grind, you know. So, it's just nuanced. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> But that's why I don't really like giving advice because, you know, it's it's complicated. It's nuanced and um almost anything can work. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think what I what I without you trying to give advice what I took out of that is like if you look at people that have the opposite things and both are successful then maybe both works is kind of the biggest proof there is like if someone says that this matters else someone else says that it doesn't and they are both winning by some criteria that everyone probably decides but then maybe that is not the factor because there are like the proof is that there are other people doing it differently and still getting the outcome. So if you want to get the outcome, if that's the goal, then you can do it differently too. Is that what you're saying? Is that why advice giving advice is hard? Because you can always find the opposite and that will be I joke with Kirby sometimes. I think he's learned now. But this >> I work with him by the way for people wondering but at the start he would always be like is there a framework or is there a concept? And I was like look this is the framework the only framework you need to know. It's like it's called the go at it framework, right? You've got like the problem and you just go at it. >> Yeah. >> And it just just do that and then some just figure it out like don't get too theoretical about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's many ways to say it, but that's what I do. I don't stop and get some books. I don't like look for some concepts or some articles. In fact, if I do that, I honestly just get more confused. I just dive in. >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, one thing leads to another and leads to another and you know, it's just it's kind of messy, but um yeah, that it just works. Just go at the problem and figure it out. >> Yeah. Awesome. So to finish this off, what would be would you so today is July 11th, 2025 like if you had to and I I know you don't like predictions like you don't want to talk about maybe some features or things which I don't want to ask as well but um would you give some like any predictions of what what do you think school will be at like in the next few years? No guarantee, no expectation like know like just what's what do you think is going to happen? What would be some I don't know teasing the the people watching this like what I don't know something to expect. >> The only things I know for the only things I know for sure is we will just keep making it better. >> Mhm. And everything else will happen as a byproduct. Probably >> I hope so. >> No, it will. It will. I can tell you I know that you are very careful careful with your words and uh that is that is good. But from my perspective, >> don't want to jinx things. >> Yeah. No, I I will I will say it. I think that seeing how much like >> I think that >> I don't even want you to say it. I just >> we'll just keep making the product better. Okay, that sounds good. Let's keep let's keep making it better. So, >> yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I mean for um it's a very good way good way to end it. So, yeah. Hope hope people found this valuable. I appreciate you for coming on some. I know you don't do this often, so it really means a lot. And I personally enjoyed it a lot, so I'm sure people did as well. So, thank you very much. >> Thanks. >> Of course. See you. Bye. See you.