Hey guys, welcome to this week's Q&A session. I'll be doing it while downtown. And so, if you are not in beautiful San Diego, here's a little taste. Palm trees everywhere. Um so, the way these Q&A sessions work, uh they're always live. They're always on Tuesday mornings. And uh what I'll do is I'll start off by answering questions that I've gotten in the community over the past week. And then, um with whatever time is available, we'll just answer questions live on the call. And so, I'll start here by just going over a few questions that I've gotten this week. First question is uh from a searcher who reached out and was asking about uh the different types of search. Self-funded search, independent sponsor, traditional search. Um and the the actual question was, "Hey, you know, I've been a self-funded searcher for a while. And I've been finding deals that are bigger than I expected. And now I'm trying to decide whether or not I should consider raising capital, being an independent sponsor, or if I should just keep looking for smaller deals like I had originally uh was looking for. Uh I got another question about uh data enrichment. So, if you're when you're doing off-market search, like sourcing, data enrichment, how does that actually work? So, I'll touch on that, too. So, let's just start with these two, and then we'll go from there. So, to that first question, you know, the the essence of the question is, "Hey, you know, I thought I was going to be a self-funded searcher. I still am. Um and traditional search isn't an opportunity of mine, something I don't want to I I actually don't even want to look at. But, the thing is, I'm finding these larger deals than I expected to find. And should I consider raising capital or being an independent sponsor?" Now, there's no right answer to that question. But, the real question isn't should I be a self-funded searcher or should I be an independent sponsor? The real question is, "What What of job do you want? Because all of these business acquisition vehicles, whether it's self-funded search or traditional search, independent sponsor, traditional private equity, all of these vehicles accomplish the same thing. We're out here to buy a company. However, the job is entirely different. And I think that's something that a lot of searchers don't really understand. Because it's not about which method makes the most money, which method gets you the most equity, which method, uh, you know, has the least risk and the best outcome. Although you can certainly weigh all those, it's really about what job you want to have. And here's what I mean. Let's start with self-funded search. Most of people in the community are self-funded searchers. Self-funded search is the one avenue that's absolutely open to everybody, especially if you're a US citizen. And so, here's the pros. You're a self-funded searcher, um, when you buy a company, you're going to own the majority of the equity. And so, what the job looks like is you are a small business owner. The moment you close, you're going to roll up your sleeves, you're going to get in the business, and you're going to do the work. And especially if it's small deal, like, you know, one to three million top line revenue, like, there's no world where you have a where you have management. You're rolling up your sleeves and getting to work. And if you're on the top end of that spectrum, let's say you find a deal that's like at the very top, it's going to be like 10 million enterprise value. It's really hard to to for a SBA level deal to pencil out at higher than 10 million enterprise value. So, let's assume you've got a deal like that where you know, you bought this company and and yeah, it's, you know, it's say it's doing, you know, between one and two million dollars of EBITDA. And uh, you know, it's big enough to where you've got a you know, maybe one level of management, you know, general managers, team managers, things like that. There's still no world where you're not hands deep operating this business. Even as the CEO, you're going to be managing the management. You're still going to be leading from the front. This isn't a world where you can delegate that to a, you know, full-time manager or full-time CEO. And just to drive the point home, even if you could, it's a really bad risk move because as a self-funded searcher, you signed for the debt. You're personally responsible for all the debt. Not the GM, not the management, no one else. You're responsible, which means if that business goes under, you're screwed. Nobody else has skin in the game like you do. And there's no amount of equity you can offer your GMs to make them feel like owners that doesn't absolve you from the millions of dollars of debt that you're responsible for. So, I just want to really clear the air on that. So, that's the job you're looking at. If your If your ideal outcome is that you own this company, you have a job, your job is to run this company, you're a small business owner, and you understand the reality, which is you're going to own this company for a very long time. 10, 20 years has to be the base understanding. And let's be clear, like most small businesses will never sell. So, if you're going into this, you have to assume that you will never sell. Now, I want the best for you. I I want the best for all of you. I want you to be super successful. And yes, in a best-case scenario, I'd love to see you, you know, triple, quadruple your business in the next 6 years and get like ridiculous offers from private equity that maybe you want, maybe you don't want, but hey, it's always nice to have an offer. Let's assume that's not you. Let's assume you're just average. And if you're just average, then you're probably going to grow between 2 and 10% a year, right along with, you know, general inflation. And as a result, you're going to own this business for a long time, and you're probably not going to sell, which means if you buy a plumbing company in Kansas City, you're going to be the owner of a plumbing company in Kansas City for the next couple of decades. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's a fantastic outcome if that's what you're looking for. You're you're going to be making enough money to, you know, build wealth for you and your family. You're you're going to have a a wonderful life. You're going to be a pillar of your community. But let's be clear, you own a plumbing company in Kansas City. You're not like moving to Spain or something like that. Like that is your job. And so, you need to understand the job you're taking, all right? There's always a job. Um moving to traditional search. Let's uh Let's just Well, first and foremost, traditional search is not an option for most people. Like let's just dispel the myth. Like unless you are from a couple of very specific circles in the ETA world, i.e., you have a MBA from Harvard or Chicago or Stanford or, you know, like you come from one of those types of circles, then traditional search is not really for you. You know, Kellogg if you want to go Um and that's fine. Like But let's also be clear, if traditional search is an option for you, traditional search is a path for you to have a job to be a CEO. That is your job. It is to learn is for you to learn how to be the CEO of a middle market company. Your job is to step into that business after you acquire it. You'll own somewhere between 15 and 30% based on your performance and the equity you put in the deal. And you will be responsible to reporting to a board of uh board of supervisors and your investors. And your whole job is to build value over the next five to nine years and sell. Like that's the whole point. You have to do that in order to return capital to your investors. That's your job. Um and this is a fantastic opportunity and a fantastic job if you know you want to be a middle market CEO. Or if Do want to get that kind of operational experience? And when you're done, you know, you'll have an incredible skill set where you can be, you know, you can move on to be a CEO of other PE backed portco companies. You could raise capital and maybe start a fund. You could do your own self-funded search. You could be an independent sponsor. It's really that that level of operational experience, there's no other way you can really get it. You know, I I I tell this story all the time, but it's like you know, people ask me, "Hey Jed, what was it like being in the military?" And I'll tell you I'm going to I'll tell you what it's like to go through basic and do deployment training and wear the uniform and I deployed twice and you know, when you have the gear up and all that stuff like I can tell you what it's like. And you can kind of have an understanding like an idea. But unless you've actually done it, you have no idea what I'm talking about. Because part of it is the stuff that you do, but the bigger part of it is the culture that you're in. And until you've actually felt it, you just don't know what I'm talking about. And the same thing is true for operating a business. Until you've done it, until you've felt it, until you've carried that weight, you just don't understand. And that's okay, you know, just like most other experiences in life. And so that level of experience as a middle market CEO operator, it's irreplaceable. It's incredible. It's incredible experience. If that's what you want to do, then that's a fantastic path. Let's be clear, whatever company you buy is not your company. It belongs to the shareholders. Belongs to the investors. As a CEO, you are the uh caretaker. You're the the leader, the guide. It's not yours. Not like a self-funded searcher where it's yours and you can make all the decisions and you know, especially in America, if you own 51% or more of a of a company, you know, you're god dictator, the emperor. You can do whatever you want. That is not the case as a as a middle market CEO for a traditional search. So just know what job you're doing. And then finally, independent sponsor. The best way to describe independent sponsor is you want to have a a private equity portfolio, and you want to build that portfolio, but you want to do it deal by deal with no money. And what I mean by that is like instead of raising two, three, 400 million dollars, and then going out and acquiring companies, and growing them, and building them, you're going to go find the companies first, and then raise the money as needed to then acquire those companies and build a portfolio. And the job as a GP, as a general partner, is way different than being a CEO, or being a self-funded searcher, because your job is not to step in and be the CEO. It is not to run the company. It is to sit on the board and hire the CEO, to hire the management team, to empower them to be successful, and then yes, exit, and give a uh you know, provide a return to your shareholders. So, it's very, very different jobs and outcomes. So, one of the most important questions that you need to ask and answer for yourself in search is what kind of job do I want to do? Do I want to be the owner-operator? So, you know, of my own company, where I run the show, but I also I'm locked in for the long term. Do I want to be a middle market CEO? Where I learn how to run these companies, and this isn't my company, but I'm going to get a ton of experience, and then I'll be able to run more in the future, and I'll just and that's the kind of outcome I want to have. Or do you want to build a portfolio? Do you want to you know, create a private equity fund or a holding company, where you're never the operator? And your job is to basically find deals, close deals, hire management teams, while also doing a lot of relationship management with your investors to be able to raise capital to get it done. And do it successfully. So, that's the real question. It's not about, you know, which vehicle is the right vehicle for the size of the deal I'm looking at. Obviously, that matters. But, the real question is what kind of job you want to do post flows. So, that's the real question you have to figure out. All right. So, that's question number one. I'll go ahead and take a pause. Eli, sir, welcome to the Q&A call. How you doing today? >> Hey, man. Good. How are you? How you doing? >> I am fantastic. As you can see, the weather is gorgeous. The palm trees are green. I am enjoying a nice walk downtown to get my steps in uh before doing the uh off-market uh challenge today. We got about 30 minutes until that. So, yeah, good. How about yourself? >> Love it. Good. Good. I'm uh still searching away. Um you know, mixed mixed results, but still doing pretty good. Um there was one thing that I want to mention. Um I don't know if if this was brought up in another session that I might have missed, but uh maybe anecdotal, but I uh I ran into the bad fortune. I got too many instantly inboxes, and they all got burned because there were so many that had the same uh domain tag on it. So, I had to kind of scrap that. I'm waiting on a a new batch to warm up, but just wondering if you've run into that or, you know, how many you recommend so you don't hit up against that limit, whatever that limit is. >> Yeah. No, that's a really great point. Uh one of the many things that can go wrong uh when you're doing cold outreach. One second. And so, the first one is uh when you're putting together your domains for cold email, you never want to have more than than three inboxes per domain. So, if you get a domain and then you put like 12 inboxes on it, it's going to burn that domain. And I it sounds like that's what happened for you. Is that right? >> No, I had uh two to three inboxes per domain. >> Okay. And then what happened after that? >> It was So, I was trying to figure out like, I wasn't getting quite the response rate that I was looking for and trying to diagnose what was actually going on, Claude recommended I go to um a service provider that, you know, basically shows you what's landing in spam and what's not. I think it's called GlockApps, um if you're familiar. >> I've heard of it. >> Yeah, anyways, I I did that. Turns out, like, you know, the majority of my emails were landing in spam. >> Yeah. >> The fact that, you know, I was I was doing, you know, text only and you know, I was, you know, trying to keep my set I I mean, my sends per inbox per day were low. It was like 10. Um but basically what happened was there was so many uh domain names, not even inboxes, but domain names that had the same root um >> Yeah. >> that it started getting flagged as a cluster and it basically burned a whole batch. >> Yeah. Yeah, that can happen, too. Um couple questions. Did From the moment you got the inboxes started, did you do 3 to 4 weeks of warm-up before you started sending emails? >> I did like 6 weeks, yeah. >> Okay. Even And the warming was running the whole time, right? >> It was, yeah. >> Yeah. I So, this is one of the newer changes with 2026, which is it used to be like you would you could have like, you know, a bunch of domains all rooted to the same one. And what's happening now is you know, it's always a moving game, so G uh Google and Microsoft, they're starting to identify uh users who have lots of email boxes with the same types of root domains, which is what you're talking about. And when that happens, if they can identify it, they'll call it a cluster and then they'll kind of shut you down. And so, when that happens, the new thing now is like you just have to have separate domains for all of them. Um so, the way that looks is, you know, say like in the past we would use like a primary domain like Sunset Coast, right? And then uh you know, I would I'd get like maybe 10 new domains, you know, try sunset coast, shop sunset coast, uh launch sunset coast. And the idea is I'd have all these domains that had a prefix, but the root was the same. That way I could then redeliver all those emails back to the same root. And that's I imagine what you were doing. Yeah. So, the way it's changing now is now they're identifying all those roots and they're saying, "Hey, if you've got a whole cluster of these, we're just going to shut them down." And so, going forward, instead of having the same root domains, you've got to have different ones. Where instead of having a bunch of like, you know, prefix sunset coast, you just have to have a bunch of random domains. And the good news is that does fix the problem. The bad news is that it breaks your domain forwarding, which isn't a big deal cuz you can just have all those boxes forwarded to one box. The bigger question though comes to optics, which is, all right, well, how does it look when I get an email from like, you know, some random domain that has nothing to do with like my email account? And I mean, from what I've seen, from what my experience is that most most of you know, most people don't really care where their email's coming from as long as it looks somewhat normal, as long as it doesn't look super sketchy. Most people don't actually read it, so yeah, it's a moving target. That's a recent change. Nothing that you did wrong, it's just the the game has changed under your feet. >> Right, that makes sense. And then another question I had for you on broker listings that you've seen in the past, like I'm sure it it's a huge I'm sure the answer is it it depends, but um how have you seen pricing as it relates to what the broker lists it at versus what it closes at? >> Uh yeah, so there's really no rhyme or reason to what the broker lists to what it actually closes at. What I can tell you is that in the lower middle market, there's so little data when it comes to what businesses are actually worth. And when I mean worth, I'm talking about multiples. And as a result, you know, most lower middle market companies, the best data we have is that you know, it usually is like the Axial data that they publish every year. Um and a lot of that will show that the vast majority of deals are getting done between four and six and a half as your multiple. But the problem is that the bulk of those deals are 20 to 80 million dollar enterprise value deals, right? They're true like lower middle market deals. SBA isn't really lower middle market. It is bottom of the barrel market, right? And so, there's a lot of there's a lot of in a lot of ways multiples for a 40 million dollar company make no sense when compared to like a 3 million dollar company. But because there's no better data and because people want to get the best possible deal, um you know, brokers for SBA level deal just use that data and say, "Hey, look, you know, everything's trading between four and six and a half. So, your company is better than the average bear, so it's probably worth five and a half." And uh that's how they put the multiples out there. And so, it's all in negotiation. Um it's really hard to get a seller off of their price. Once they Once they know what their price is, it's almost impossible to change their mind. Um what I have found is that it really just depends on the seller. Some sellers, you know, they'll they're Sometimes they're relatively new to getting the market and brokers will tell them, you know, "You're going to get the world. You're going to get like five and a half six times for your company. You're going to sell in six months. It's going to be wonderful." Cuz they'll A lot of brokers will do whatever they can to get the listing. And then what will happen is that one of two things will happen. Either, you know, less experienced or less qualified buyers will see that and they'll buy it and that just makes the problem worse because they'll use SBA and a few and other money and they'll just like, "Yeah, sure." They'll pay six They'll overpay. They'll pay six six and a half times for a $4 million company and then it works. And then that just validates brokers and sellers and everyone thinks, "Hey, that's that's a really good deal." Which of course it's not. Or, and I see this a lot, too, buyers pass. In which case the seller's been on the market for 2 years now. They're not getting the attention that they thought they would get. And then they start, you know, thinking, "All right, well, maybe I do need to adjust my expectations." And hopefully the business has kept pace that whole time. And so, when you find a company, so the long the long about to it, you know, to get back to your question, when you find a company, the likelihood that it's going to sell for the actual price that they're listing it at, relatively small. The real question is, when you do your valuation, you have to come up with what you think the right value is for you. But, the more important thing is to figure out what the seller's actual number is. Nine times out of 10, you know, basic seller and negotiation mentality is going to be, "Hey, I'll price it a little bit high, expecting to have to negotiate down." That's how most people sell stuff. >> Right. >> And so, the real question is, you know, if you like the company, you need to have a really good relationship with the seller. And a lot of times they're not going to just tell you what their price is, but sometimes they will. And you put together your, you know, your analysis what you think the business is worth. And when you get an idea of what's important to the seller, whether what you think their target price is, whether they want all cash, whether they want like installment payments or whatever, then once you have that idea, then you try to find a way to structure your LOI in a way that gets the deal done. And if it's not possible, it's not possible, but if you do find yourself at a place to where you you can't meet the seller's number, there's really no way to get them off of it. The best thing you can do is, you know, be honest and tell them, "Hey, this is my valuation. This is what I think it's worth. Uh really like the company, but this is where I'm at. If that's too low for you, totally understand, would love to keep in touch. I got to move on to other opportunities." And believe it or not, I've had I've had sellers come back 2 years later and be like, "Hey, let's have that conversation again." So. >> No, I'm I'm more coming at it from the perspective of, you know, there's a there's a broker process right now that I'm in and, you know, I I can't tell if it's a lot of broker speak or not, but he's been telling me, you know, there's a lot of PE groups interested, everyone's coming in all cash, yada yada yada. And so, I'm trying to like size my bid appropriately where I'm not fully extended where, you know, they're going to get me try to get me up, you know, that extra couple percent at the end. Or should I just bid full out now and and hope I get, you know, in the final round of the of the process. So. >> Yeah. >> And part of it, too, is like they don't they're not including working capital in the listing price. And so, it's, you know, that's a that is as well, so. >> That's a pretty big gap. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's annoying. >> So, look, I mean, brokers are incentivized to get the best possible they can with the seller from the seller. And so, you know, what I found is I completely disregard everything the broker tells me about other people bidding or, you know, the the thought process of the seller. Like, I'll take all of that into consideration, but in reality, it doesn't matter because I'm the buyer and I'm the one with the big with the big check with my name on it. And if I want to sign it, that's my choice. So, I've got what the seller wants, which is money, right? And so, the real question is, you know, I have to make sure that I'm protecting myself as the buyer, which is I already know what my buy box is, I already know what kind of structure I'm comfortable with, I know what overpaying means for me. And I have to do my own independent analysis of this business, and I have to come at it and understand like what my valuation happens to be and what I'm comfortable paying. And if that's not enough, then and someone else is willing to pay all cash at 20% premium, by all means, friend, I want the best for you. Like, if the seller can get that, do it. I always tell I tell people, look, if you've got a $1 million EBITDA business and someone wants to pay you 12 times revenue, sell. Like, SpaceX is insane at a 100x revenue, but people want to buy it, sell. Absolutely. You know, go get your money. Um but that doesn't mean I'm your buyer. And so, you just have to always look at it from like your perspective as the buyer and be like, look, ultimately, I'm the one who's writing the check, and if I'm not comfortable with this, then this isn't It could be the best company in the world, but uh you know, a wonderful company at a terrible valuation is a bad investment. >> Right. Yeah. All right. No, that's awful. >> Yeah, I mean, it sucks. I mean, I've I've been in those negotiations with people where then it's easy to fall in love with the company, and you love it, and it's profitable, and it's in your area of expertise, and it's everything you hoped it would be, but then they come back and they're like, "Yeah, I want $8 million." And there's only like $700,000 of SDE. Like, I can't help you, man. Unless you want This is actually one of the things that killed a deal I was working at on just before Christmas, which was Look, I can I do everything I can to get this deal closed for you, but you know, I can I can only give you so much. And unless you want to take a massive seller note, not much I can do to close that gap. >> Right. Right. Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. That's helpful. It's hard. I mean, yeah, like in your example, if it's $800,000 in SDE versus an $8 million price, that's Yeah, easy pass. It's these gray areas, right? Where it's like, is this worth like a five or a six? Like, seems great, but yeah. Anyways. >> Yeah. >> Those kind >> What I would >> of wasted >> What I would say about that, look, sometimes buyers get a little too gun-shy. And if you're going between You have to look at it. Don't don't miss the forest through the trees on it where if you evaluate a company and it's a good deal, like it's a solid company, you're very confident in it, you've done some diligence, things look good, and then, you know, you're coming up and you're only like half a multiple away from the seller, well, then maybe we have an honest conversation about how we can close that, you know? It's I'd rather pay a you know, a good, fair price on a great deal than get a really fair company at a great price. I'm not always looking for a discount. I'm looking for a good company cuz a good company is worth it. >> Right. Yeah, no. Point taken. Point taken. >> Now, a good company may not be worth seven times, but it could absolutely be worth, you know, me jumping from five to five and a half or me at least considering going to six if it meant like, you know, some sort of forgivable seller note or like whatever the case is. Like there's usually a structure that you can find to make it work. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, have you ever been in a situation where you're proposing two different types of structures in a in an LOI? >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah, done it all the time. In fact, most of the time unless I know unless I know for sure um what the seller wants. And sometimes that happens. Sometimes sellers are very direct. Hold on, I got an ambulance going by here. Sometimes sellers are very direct. Sometimes they tell you, "Hey man, you know, like I had a seller once that was like, 'Hey, I'm not taking a seller's note. It's all cash or nothing.'" I'm like, "We can have that conversation, but it's it's going to be a lower price, that's for sure. There's a lot of more risk there." Um so if you unless you know that, um I tend to actually offer two LOIs. And so, I'll you know, I'll usually come up with whatever I think the company's worth and then I'll put two LOIs together and say, "Hey, here's the two I can do. Here's one LOI that gets you a higher total compensation, but it's got maybe more of a seller's note, it's got like payment structures, it's got you know, whatever the case is. Never earn out. I don't like them, I don't believe in them. But, uh you know, it's got something like that, it's more flexible terms. And then, uh the other structure would be, "Hey, this is more like a traditional cash structure where, you know, you can, you know, use this and it's going to be lower total comp, but you get more money up front." And that way they have an option. Now, the downside you run into, though, is that sellers will look Some of the times they'll come back to you and be like, "Hey, I want the best of both deals." I'm like, "That's not how this works, friend." So, you just have to be honest about what the trade-off is. And I find that that's useful because, you know, sellers are only ever going to do this once, typically. This is the biggest transaction of their lives, they've never done it before. And so, even if they've never considered taking a seller's note, even if they've never considered rolling equity, it it sometimes it's important to show them that. That way they can say, "Hey, I didn't want to do that." I'm like, "Cool. I just wanted to let you know what the structure could look like." Yeah, that way they can see what the options look like before they make a final decision. >> Do you run both of those structures by the lender, or like, are you engaging a lender in putting together LOI? >> Uh sometimes. So, the thing is is like most like I'm not going to offer an LOI that I know I can't get funded. So, I've got a couple lenders that I've I've worked with in the past that I already know what their lending box looks like, so I know I'm good there. Um but if I ever have a question, like, "Hey, is this something I can actually get funded?" then I would run that by the lender before I offer it as an LOI, because the cardinal sin is offering an LOI that you can't actually close on. Uh if you do that, it puts you in a bad position where you have to retrade, and it's probably going to kill the deal at some point. So, you want to avoid that at all costs. So, if there's any question whether or not you can get that LOI funded, say, you're doing like three turns of debt, and you're like, "I don't know if they'll go for that. Then you have run it past you a couple lenders that you're considering working with and ask them for their feedback. They should be able to get that to you within, you know, a couple of days. And it's not You're not asking for a term sheet. You're just saying, "Hey, is this an overall structure that you'd be comfortable with?" >> Yeah. Yeah. All right, cool. >> Yeah. >> Thanks. >> Yeah, good questions, man. >> I know. I appreciate it. That was it from me, but appreciate the time. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um let's see here. All right, we've got 10 minutes before the off-market leads challenge starts. So, let me go ahead and answer the last question that was pitched, which was enrichment. So, data enrichment. So, the question was, "Hey, you know, I'm doing off-market lead sourcing, and I had a question about data enrichment. How do I enrich that information? How do I get email addresses, phone numbers? Is that something that I can do through Appify, or do I use other tools?" And so, real fast, the overall breakdown looks like this. You want to start by You're going to source a list, and you'll source that list through, you know, either private structures where you're getting stuff out of databases, public databases, private databases. You can pull lists out of Apollo. You Better yet is pulling a list from Appify that scrapes Apollo. You can pull lists out of Grata or Inven. Or if you're using Clay, or there's a million ways to pull lists. But the point is is that once you pull list of like every HVAC company in West Virginia, let's say that's your list. Once you have a list, most likely you're going to have names of companies and maybe addresses of companies. Addresses are really easy to get, mostly because, you know, especially for like brick-and-mortars, because they'll usually have a Google Maps listing. And so, that's how you get that information. But the first pass is like once you have that list put together, you want to upload that list and have Claude run over it and say, "Hey, Claude, go enrich this list as much as much as you can." And by enrich, I mean, you know, find the email address, find the name of the owner, find the email address of the owner, find the social media accounts of the owner, the LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram accounts. Um based on that, find the websites of the business if it exists. Like, find as much information as you possibly can. And the great thing today is that Claude or or whichever or whichever LLM you're using is so good at this now, they can usually get a lot of that information for you. Now, the area where you're like, all right, so once you do that, that's all the free enrichment, right? Well, I mean, you're paying for Claude, but I mean, that's the stuff that you're getting for free, but the other um once you do that, then you're going to use what's called a waterfall method. And a waterfall method simply means that you're going to use a combination of paid providers to then go over your data and try to fill in the blanks. And so, one way you would do that is you'd say, all right, well, I've got this list. Now, I'm going to use a tool like AnyMailFinder, which is paid, not super expensive, but AnyMailFinder runs through your whole list and identifies email addresses of the owners, fills them in, and then you're done. And then once that's done, it'll go through and say, all right, well, which ones are still missing? Well, AnyMailFinder maybe found like 30%. Great. Then you bring in something like Hunter.io, which is another email finder. And it'll it'll run through it and it'll try to find more email addresses. And that's what's called the waterfall. So, you're just using more and more tools to try to get as much data as you possibly can. I typically wouldn't go more than three or four layers deep. If you can't get any like for email, for instance, if you can't get email after three or four runs of separate paid tools, then it's probably just not in the in the cards for you. And that's okay, that happens all the time. You can imagine when you first pull a list, you're probably only going to get really detailed data on maybe 50 to 70% of the total, you know, items on your list. So, that's just kind of the game when it comes to proprietary uh a data cuz you're just trying to find it. And that's fine, but that's what the enrichment looks like. And there's a lot of tools out there. There's like there's hundreds of tools. Uh if you've ever used a tool called Clay, Clay is a fantastic tool, but basically it's like an online aggregator of sales tools. And so if you want to know like what are the most commonly used enrichment tools or or paid software out there, go create an account with Clay, which is free. You can get paid accounts, too, where uh you can get like credits to be able to use different tools, especially if you don't want to pay for subscriptions themselves, it's a great option. But if you're like, "Hey, what are all the best like email scraping tools today?" They're all going to be linked to Clay. So, go look at those. Or social media scraping or, you know, whatever phone numbers, things like that. So, that's probably where I would start. Um but yeah, good question. So, sourcing your list and then enriching your list are two separate processes. You can absolutely use web scrapers, you know, in Apify as methods of being able to uh you know, do enrichment, but you know, building lists and doing enrichment are two separate things. And then the goal is like once you've got a list and you've enriched it as much as you possibly can, hopefully at the very least, you've got email addresses and then you use those email addresses to um you know, do cold email. And then if you got phone numbers, you do cold calling. And if you got social media accounts, you do DMs. Um obviously not to the company, you'll do DMs directly to the owner. Um but yeah, that's that's how you'd go about it and uh you just try to get as much information as possible you can. So, hopefully that answered that question about sourcing and enrichment. And that's all I have for today. So, um so yeah, uh this will be posted to community within the next few minutes. And this is how Q&A works every week. If you've got any questions whatsoever, um find the uh weekly Q&A post, ask your question, I will answer it live on the call. And then got a question, join the call, happy to answer it live as well. Hope you guys having a great week and happy searching.