Hi and welcome to the season finale of Therapus. Actually, I guess it's what's it November now? I guess it's really been almost a year since we started this season. And when I did Therapist season 1, it took off in this way. I like had absolutely no idea would happen. And the same thing kind of happened for season 2. It just kept getting bigger and more intense and more fun and all these moments that were like dreams that I never thought would happen happened. I mean, in season 2, we had Lord, we had Selena Gomez, I mean, we have Hillary Duff tonight. It's just it's insane. It like really is so insane what this has become. And it's really and truly all because of you guys. Like, nobody else made this happen but you guys. And I am just so grateful for the community we've built and like this platform you guys have given me. And um I cannot wait to do bigger and better things in season 3. I'm like sad that this is over that season 2 is over, but I'm also really really excited to redo the set. And I always want to be better. I always want to get better at interviewing people. I always want to get better at keeping the conversation light but also deep. Like there's so much for me to get better on and I'm so excited to have that opportunity in another season. It really really warms my heart that the heart of this show which is me and my best friends has never changed. Like you guys still love the friend episodes no matter how big the guests get. Like at the end of the day, I think what your guys' favorite moments from the show are always with my best friends and it makes me so happy and it makes recording these episodes with them so much fun and I can't wait to do more of those in season 3. I'm just feeling very grateful and very excited to do more in the coming months. Yeah, I don't really know what else to say. I was like I was out this weekend. I went to um the Lakma Gala and I was like looking around and I was like I've never been to something as cool as this before and all I kept thinking about was this podcast and you guys and how the only reason I'm there is because of that and I was just feeling very grateful. And thank you so much to our sponsors of this season. It would not have been the same without you. Thank you Bumble. Thank you SeatGeek. Thank you Booking. Booking. Yeah. Thank you Celsius. Thank you Cozy Earth. I love you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you for believing in me. Thank you for believing in this show. I cannot wait to see what happens next season. And I'm really, really excited for you guys to see the season finale tonight. It is with none other than the queen herself, Hillary Duff. Her new single, Mature, is out November 6. That's this Friday. It is incredible. I can confirm I've heard it. The way I would describe it, it reminds me so much of Metamorphosis. if Metamorphosis grew up 20 years, which it literally did. The chorus is incredible. I mean, when Louise heard it, she almost passed out. She said she felt like she was like transported back in time, but it's like you're transported back in time, but you're also present, if that makes sense, because the content is so different. It's just incredible. I'm so excited for everyone to hear it. Um, and I'm so excited for you guys to see the episode tonight. Hillary is a living icon. Um, we got to talk about the 2000s, Lizzie Magcguire, the Lizzie Magcguire movie, a Cinderella story, raise your voice. It was such an incredible conversation and I so grateful that she was the season finale. So, thank you, Hillary. Stream Mature on November 6th and I'll see you next season. I love you Enjoy the episode. Oh my god, I'm so excited. I'm going to freak out. You already know. I had my movie marathon this weekend. I I really enjoyed watching that. That was just the best experience of my life. I was literally every morning I'd wake up and I would put a new one on. I would put a new one on and I was in bed with my friend Cassidy all weekend. And what did you order? What? Like what do you like like food wise? Like I got fur. Oo. Okay. I had it was really good and then I Yeah, I had fur I think like twice this weekend. Oh. And I was really hung over and I was uh finishing obviously the Lizzie Magcguire movie and obviously the final well not the final scene but the scene came on where what this what dreams are made of obviously you perform it and I looked at Cassidy and it was like the most unity I felt in like maybe 10 years. I was like this song is actually poetic. I was also really high but like it was fantastic. And I really did. I did want to ask you like when you were making that in the studio and was I really high? No. No. Were you just like were you like holy this song is amazing? No. Stop it. Very much no. What? Yeah. Absolutely not. I don't even remember recording that song. But I will say now I love it. And when I was filming the movie I loved it. It was just it was like a weird time and it wasn't technically my song. It was a Lizzie Magcguire song. So I think having like my music that I was recording I forget the timeline to be honest. I mean I was literally 14 years old. I think yeah you were young. So like if I was like hey Jay what did I do at 14? I'd be like I have no idea. Yeah. There's some very big moments that stand out obviously like some of the like being in Italy for Lizzie Magcguire but then the rest of it filmed in Vancouver. I could like barely remember any of that stuff. So, what filmed in Vancouver? I don't know. I don't It was like a song for Lizzie Magcguire. And so, you didn't think it like represented you. You were like, "This is Lizzy." Yeah. Got it. Mhm. It's a banger. And actually, when I sing it now, I feel a lot of joy. I just think that there was like such a separation back then of like me and my music and Lizzie Magcguire that that song like I didn't I didn't really get to perform that song live because I didn't own it maybe or Oh, I was about to say cuz that was it it was under Disney. It was it was like Lizzie Magcguire IP. So when you did your tour and you were doing Metamorphosis, you were just doing songs from that album. Interesting. But if I would ever tour again, don't play with me. I think maybe I would be allowed to manage to sing that song somehow some way on the floor. You'd have to scrape maybe, you know, just maybe like hypothetically. You would have to scrape me off the floor with like a Zamboni. Like I Oh my god. If I heard that laugh, I think I'm Wait, a Zamboni? Does that mean we're like in an arena? Yeah, I think like if like you're in an arena if there's a Zamboni. Yeah. Would you? It's a big show. Would you you have done arenas? I have. You have for Metamorphosis. I liked your your um casual Cosmopolitan over there. Little piece of cosmopolitan. How old is that? New or No, it's very old. It's from Well, not very old, but it's from like I think 2010. And um and it and uh my friend Willa gave it to me as a gift. Oh, I know. It's great. Off topic. No, but you're obviously recording new music now, which I had the pleasure of hearing. Louise, I mean, she started crying. Wait, what? She started crying. She said she felt like she was transported back. Stop. She's phenomenal. It's actually phenomenal. So sweet. Thank you. Phenomenal. You're so sweet. Thank you. Of course. But it's your first music in 10 years, right? Yeah. What made you say like, "Okay, now this is the moment that I want to do new music." you know, it's always been it was always going to happen. There's no there's there's no way that that was not going to be a part of my my story. Um, but I think living with the person that I live with, who's my husband, and um, just being 10 years removed from music and being 38 and just like arriving kind of like where I am in my life. And I I just felt like I had a lot of like I can finally like fill in the blanks and I'm ready to like fill in those blanks and share with people and connect with them on the level of now and and um you know I've had a 25 plus year career and in an and like I obviously it's taken a lot of twists and turns and ups and downs and all of those things but I have this crazy like connection with fans that like I've known since I was 9 10 years old. Um and and I just want to like connect with them again now. M and I think that we have gone through a lot of the same things whether that's um complicated relationships, anxiety, raising kids, divorces, um trying to find yourself in adulthood, um family drama. I mean, lots of lots of topics that, you know, just felt like finally I felt safe enough and comfortable in my own family to step outside and open that part of myself up again. and um and you know like just being comfortable to say no and really not know what the capacity looks like of like okay I did used to tour arenas and I did do these big giant things when um I was younger and now it might look a little bit different and that's okay you know which in the past looked a lot like go work with this songwriter and right go fly to Sweden and do this thing because this is what's working for this person and that you know just it felt a lot it felt messy And um and still there was like big parts of me in there, but I just didn't really know my power yet. When you That makes sense. That made complete sense. That was a very long answer. No, but it made complete sense. Like do you feel like when you were making your first few albums like Metamorphosis, was that kind of like the path you were on? They were like, "Go work with this person. Go work with this person." And like did you not feel like those encapsulated how you felt in that moment? So, Metamorphosis is a little bit different because I was very involved in that record and that was a very big snapshot of like my life in that moment and entering me as a pop star. Um, how old you were 15, 14? I think maybe I was 14 making the record, turning 15. Mhm. Um, and that was a very big like me record and I worked with a lot of the same people which felt good and felt a little bit more like a creative uh journey that was like all in one house, right? Do you know what I mean? Mhm. Um, and then and some of my other records as well, I forget them. I forgot I forget all the titles. Um, one's called Hillary Duff. That was self-titled. One is called Hillary Duff colon. I'm dead for you right now. You did such good research. Breathe in. Breathe out. Yeah. So that most wanted. Oh, so good. So good. Dead. No, but it's not even I didn't even need to do research. Like I have been I felt like I've been living with you in my household since I g gained consciousness. You know what I mean? Like I really and truly like I remember watching Lizzie Magcguire as a kid and then I remember watching the Lizzie McGuire movie and then Cinderella story and then you know like everything material girls everything. Do you have like a favorite? I loved Cinderella Story. I mean I was like an angsty little pre-teen like or no like I was fully teenager I think filming that movie. So that was just like a good time for me. I felt like I was like, "Oh, I'm like filming a cool movie." And, you know, I wasn't like I was like stepping outside of Lizzie McGuire and that felt that felt exciting and I was starting to do music and so yeah, I think that one Were you nervous about stepping outside of Lizzy? No, I was so ready. I was so ready. And I, you know, I don't mean to talk about her as like a I needed to I needed a break from that, but I really needed a break from her. You were 14, 15. Yeah. And I feel like I was her. I'm not going to pretend that I was like some amazing actress. Like she was me, I was her. It was the same. You know what I mean? We were both like in the same exact element of our lives and time of our lives. And but she just became so famous. You were. And you didn't expect that at all. No, I I'm such a like grubby little Texas kid that like I like I remember I'm also a valley rat. Like I grew up in the valley once we got to LA from Texas. Um I was like an Oakwood apartment kid, you know, eventually we like got a condo and that was a big deal and we weren't, you know, living in the Oakwood apartments anymore and I was just like I had like a scooter gang and like I was just friends with like all the Burbank kids. Right. One weekend, Lizzie Maguire posters like appeared at all the malls and I was like meeting my friends at the mall and my mom like didn't even think twice about it and all of a sudden I got mobbed at the mall and and this was after the premiere. I think it was like happening that week. Wow. And someone who worked at the mall stuck me in the janitor closet and was like, "Call your mom to come and get you." It was crazy. Were you like in that moment? Were you were you like this is so cool? Like I this is like I this is like what I've like been working towards and dreamt of or were you like I am so overwhelmed. What did I sign up for? Jake, we haven't spent that much time around each other. I never feel cool. Shut Stop it. That can't be true. You and the Dodgers hat and a Cinderella story. I mean my jaw I'm gagged. I'm sitting there like there's no one cooler in the diner. I'm like, there's actually never been anyone cooler. You don't feel cool. Oh my god. I mean, now I love like I I don't want to feel cool now. Like cool is not You know, you're like past the point of like feeling cool, you know? That's like in a te you didn't feel cool as a teenager being like, "Yeah, I'm Hillary Duff." No. What? I don't think so. I mean, I think I had moments where I had a lot of confidence and then other moments where I was like out of body experience, you know. Was that one of those out-of- body experiences? Oh, yeah. Big time. And I honestly didn't I was just like, "Mom, can you come get me cuz there's lots of people at the mall like really excited that I'm here." Like I've always been like shy. I don't I'm like a hybrid of like shy and very talkative, but like you know it's I think it was just weird to have like so much attention. Um but I understood it too. Like I'm like I'm an actor. I know I could assume this was going to happen, but it's not really what I wanted the outcome. I wasn't it wasn't the desired outcome. Got it. Got it. And then is is that the moment where you're like the before? Like there was before and then there was after. And was that kind of a temple moment of you where it was like now this is after and now Lizzie Magcguire has premiered and everything has changed or did it take some time? It was instant. Mhm. It was really fast and like but I think that's the power of TV in people's living rooms. You know what I mean? Right. Cuz it was just on all the time. Yeah. And do you was like I think I remember feeling cool like even like even Stevens was on and like all these other shows that I loved watching and I was like and there I am. Yeah. But like I'm shy about it. Of course. Of course. I think I felt cool. But it's crazy cuz Lizzie Magcguire was only on for two seasons. I know. Did was there ever talk Did they want to push it more and you were like I'm I'm done or Okay. So, this was like always a complicated thing for me to understand as a like younger person is like Disney Channel had a formula that they followed where they just ordered a certain amount of episodes and that was what they did for their shows. That's like they spent this amount of money, they had this amount of an order and they stuck to that formula for all of those shows, right? And I never understood that. Like it was I mean I think one year we shot like 30 episodes in one year and maybe the next one was like 35 episodes in one year. So that's when I'm like I'm not like oh Lizzie Magcguire hated her. I was just like I had worked like a you know you were young as well. I was young and it was just day day every day every day and I was in every single scene of that show pretty much. I was in the A story and the B story. So I was just like pretty tapped on her. But um also it was fun. I loved it. I loved it. I had the best time. Um but yeah, that was like I think and then like Lizzie Maguire broke all of their records for the shows and I think after that show they were like, "Oh, we're changing this and like the Hannah Montana came and Wizards of Waverly Place and stuff." And I think maybe they shot more episodes of those. They did. I think there was about three or four seasons of those. Yeah. Did Selena or Miley or anyone in that generation ever come to you and be like, "What was this like for you?" Like, did you ever mentor any of the them or was it just separate separated? It was always like I I can't remember exactly, but I know at some point like Selena and Demi both approached me at at certain things like years and years and years ago. and they were like, you know, really lovely and really sweet and kind and telling me how much they love me and that kind of conversation, but I was never like, "Let me show you the way." Right. Right. Right. Which, thank goodness, because it's been so fun to watch all of them pave their way and and and watch the journey. It's been like insane. Like what what a ride for all of all of the Disney people, you know? It's crazy though that Disney Channel is not extinct now, but it's not what it was. Like, do your children like do they know like what do they like understand like how big Disney Channel was or is it big for them still or are they like watching like streamers and like what are the kids watching? So weird. Every night I put them to sleep and I'm like, "Let me tell you about how big I was and Disney Channel was." The network I was on, it was big kids. Um, no. They don't know and they don't care at all. They're missing out. Yeah. I'm more just like negotiating iPad time and Right. You know, they have like the attention span of a nat and that's that. No, I'm just kidding. They They actually My my four-year-old Maymay loves a Cinderella story and she's like, you know, can you put the one on where you're the princess? Were you the girl with the big dress? And I'm like, yeah. But then she only wants to get to the end and she's like, why do I have to wait so long for to to see the dress? Oh, she just wants like the rain and the everything. Yeah. My god. We spoke about this very briefly over DM. Were you not during filming like with the mask on and Chad Michael Murray is like, "Who are you?" You're like, "Don't you love it?" Yeah. But aren't you like, "Isn't it just part of movie history that you love?" And you're like, "Yes." But in that moment, were you like, "Hello, he m like were you were you like clocking it in the moment like he he knows, right?" Or were you just like whatever like it? I think I was like 16 and I didn't give a I was like, I've got to wear this mask on my face. Like, right. I wasn't really too uh invested in the creative at that point. Got it. Got it. I'm so sorry if I let you down. No, no, it's it's okay. Or the wardrobe stylist didn't make the right choice. No, you know what? Like that makes that's the fun of it. You're watching it and you're like, how does he not know? But you know, he is part of my favorite trope and so are you. The unpopular girl works in the diner and the popular boy and the whole popular group comes in and the popular boy shows you attention. And you know what? You have worked in a diner in multiple films. Oh, wait. What's the other one? Um, raise your voice. You worked in the family restaurant. A fact I did not remember. She did, right? You did. Like you do you feel like do you you feel like you maybe I should have worked in a could you like if you had to like throw I mean I would crush working in a I think you would too cuz you do a great job and I understand it's a movie but like I've seen it now in two different completely worlds. This is this is um a little off topic but I'm just hoping I find the the thread. I like one of my husband's one of the things he complains the most about me is I love to like meet a vacation friend or like we'll go out to dinner and I'll just like start talking to the table next to us and he's like Hillary come on why why like we get so little time why do you have to like bring this person in whatever I think if I worked at a diner I would be like social yes you happy that's the best quality of a diner waiter or waitress is that you know them yeah you know the order exactly you know you're like that familiarity. You're like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes." Do you Okay, so I was also watching Younger and Do you Did you watch all of Younger? I watched I I watched it when it was on the air. I watched for a few seasons and then I was in college and I kind of like Oh, I I'll give it to you. You fell off I fell off television in general in college. I was like I like lost myself completely. But when I know I wonder why I would do that if I went to college. Do you ever wonder like Yeah. like what I would have been like in either middle school, high school or college. That is who would I be? You didn't even Lizzie Magcguire was your middle school. No, like I was so that was that's like a secret when like the fact that I got a like a locker as Lizzie Magcguire like I felt like it was my own and I was just like this is the one I got. But you had like all your Burbank friends like were they all in middle school being like this is what middle school is like and were you like damn or were you like it's cool that I'm Lizzie Magcguire or both? Combination. Yeah. Yeah. Combo. Mhm. What I was going to ask about younger though was did that feel somewhat like a continuation of Lizz's story in like a weird way or was it to you two separate entirely two separate stories? To me, it was two separate stories because Kelsey had like this confidence that Lizzie never had and Kelsey was like a little bit more like beast mode with like her career and like driven to like get ahead and she was like a party animal and like sexually like free and I don't feel like Lizzy or is any of those things. But didn't you guys want to make Lizzy like that for the reboot and they were like uhuh and then like that's what happened, right? Um yes. I think that there was there was um you know just disagreeances on how far we could take her and what where she is as you know she would have been when we were filming that like 30 or 31. And for me, I was that age, you know, and so I was just like also felt so deeply connected to her as a character because we were the same. And I was like, "Oh man, like we can't we can't marry Tyler more her. That's not like I don't know." It was like 2023. Like, you know what I mean? there's like social media and like like we weren't I wasn't trying to have her like wake up and do like bong rips or anything but like but like she was a normal 30-year-old you know so there was some things I think they just weren't like totally willing to and do you did you see her like do you think Lizzy and Gordo had like a thing post or do you think they stayed friends? So I don't think they had a thing post. I think they had like maybe an almost thing post. I know like again like another swing at it that like didn't Yeah. devastating right in my mind. This is my story. You are Lizzy. But I think that there was a thing with someone else that was just very quick. And Gordo was like I think maybe there was like a thing with like in my mind I like to think she had like a thing with Ethan Craft finally. Oh yes. You agree? Totally agree. Yeah. Just a quick thing like a like a you know like Yeah. Yeah. Um, and he's always like there to pick up her pieces still. Like I know. I mean, he it's really fun to play the whatifs. Like I love to play it out. But like you really don't think ever with Gordo. No. You know what you said? No. I agree. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Was there ever conversation about taking Lizzy into high school and you were like, "No." It was just like junior high. She's done. Mhm. Wow. Yeah. I don't think that was the demo for the Disney Channel like high school students. And did you when you were filming the the movie? So that they had never done that. They had never done a movie. And when you were filming that and it came out cuz when it came out it was major. Like did you expect it to be as big as it was cuz Lizzie Magcguire had been so big or were you like still being like wow this is crazy. I don't really recall like it all was so big. That's all I remember is like it was all so big. It was all so like oh this has never happened before. Oh, look at this. These numbers are this, you know, it was like all this stuff that like I kind of understood but didn't really understand and like I was also like a selfish teenager, right? Of course. You know, so I I had other other things to pay attention to which I think was probably really healthy that like my parents um or my mom wasn't like basking in the you obviously everybody loves success, right? It was all great for business. Yeah. But um I still like I think I was like getting my driver's license and I was really focused on that. Do you when did though like photographers and press start like right around that time? So like 2003 they like you were that's when they started following you around and stuff. Yeah. And do you remember feeling like oh I feel this this feels weird at one point and you feeling like this is getting more intense and this feels weird. Yeah. Got it. Um, I just remember having to like deal with paparazzi everywhere I went. So that was weird cuz and my sweet friends, my my friends would be like my bodyguard. I think part of it was like there was a tiny tiny portion that was like kind of fun and exciting of course and then it got old really fast and then we were all like really sick of it. Well, cuz like at first it's like hi photo, hi and then it's like oh no you've it's actually you're waiting outside my house and you're following me everywhere. Yeah. I mean, there's there's um there's sometimes there's some paps around, but um not like it used to be like hordes of them, you know, and like following me around all day long. They love to do it to a pregnant woman which is like the worst possible time to want to be followed around and um you know just every single location, every single stop you're making throughout the day, they're there and they're like driving crazy and they don't care and they break all the rules and they have no respect for you and Got it. But it has changed a lot, right? Or people don't care about me anymore. I don't know which one. People care. Do you hear how many people screamed when you came out as Sally with role model? Yes, I did. Like that was I want to say that was the most talked about Crazy Sally. It was. Do you agree? Completely. People were like, "No chance." And it was. What was that like? That was so fun. Honestly, I had been listening to his music a lot and um I was just cooking dinner for my kids. Honestly, it was like a normal night at my house and I tend to not be in touch with my cell phone for like a few hours during that time. That's like a that's peak craziness at my house is like 4:30 to like 7:30 and my husband calls the home phone. We have a home phone cuz we live in the canyon. No way. Yeah. We have like shitty service. Oh, you have like a landline? We have a landline, babe. Oh my god. I mean, we also have Wi-Fi, but No, right. just in case we got that landline. Wow. So, he called the landline. Yeah. And he's like, "Babe, can you please pick up your phone? Everyone's trying to reach you. You have to go be Sally tomorrow." And I was like, "What? That's exciting." And I was like, "I can't. I have too much to do tomorrow." And he was like, "No, no, no. You're going to go do it." And I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go do it." And then I just like moved a bunch of around and dug my cowboy boots out of my closet and um was on a plane like the next morning at 8 a.m. And it was fun. It was very fun. I also like I'm from Texas, right? So it was like felt full circle almost to Yeah. And do you know I was the first ever Sally? No. Yeah. What? Yeah. He Tucker didn't tell you. No. I was the first ever Sally. Stop. Swear. In Houston. What? No, in Dallas. I'm so sorry. In Dallas. In Dallas. But cuz I was in Houston the next night, which is why I thought that. But still close by. You were the first Sally. Yeah. I want to I want to see the footage. I'll send it to you. I want to compare our um Yours is much better. But cuz I didn't know what to do. But yeah, I was the first Sally. That's amazing. Are you guys friends? Yeah, he he's been on the show. He's great. cute. But he there was like um there was like a he's been on the show twice and so there was like a rumor that the song was like written about me as like a obviously a joke and I love attention so I'm like repost obviously like I want to reiterate the rumor and I was like oh my god you're in Dallas. I'm in Dallas. And he's like do you want to come out and do something? And Sally was born. Stop. You created it this movement. I know. I've never had such a mix of people like, "Wait, who is Sally?" or "Holy you're going to be Sally?" Like, yes. It's a huge huge thing. Yeah. That's crazy though about concert culture that has changed drastically is bringing out people as like a show that never used to be a thing, right? Cuz like what what do you think like performing preocial media versus during social media? Like what is the difference to you? Obviously, there's like very obvious differences, but like to you, what is the difference? I mean, I think it's just a common theme in life now where like everything is filmed and like you're witnessing everything through your camera lens to get it on camera so you can like I guess relive it again or I don't know what so you can brag about it or what? Like that's you know what I mean? Like it's not just concerts. It's witnessing and like I'm watching my kid do a thing at school and instead of just watching it, I'm like watching it through my screen, right? Um, but I think that's that's the that's the thing is just to like have it, I guess, or to catch the moment like what's the we're all a lot less present. One thing I'm grateful for is that I don't always have to go to the concert and I can see it on social media. Got it. Got it. You know what I mean? Like the highlights. Yes. Do you want to talk about your single cuz by by the time this comes out it'll be announced. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Mature. Yeah. Where was the inspiration behind that? What was it like creating it? Yeah, with Mature. It's it's a really fun song and I feel like it's my self talking to my younger self about an experience that we had and just reflecting on it and um being okay with it and having like you know a little like tongue-in-cheek moment with yourself um and and like accepting your past and um like being good with where you landed, right? Does that make sense? That makes complete sense. Yeah. It's like you can look back on a situation with more wisdom than you had in the moment. Yeah. And then like release the feelings that you have towards it. Do you feel like when you write a song, you release everything you have about that situation? I don't think I release everything, but I think it feels good to talk about. Like it's just like sitting with a friend, right? Like anytime someone's meeting you where you're at or has had a similar experience, like you feel instantly a little better about yours, right? And that's what music does, right? Like you see yourself or feel yourself in music and that's why you keep listening to it cuz it sees you and you see it. Do you have a song in your discoraphy that you recognize really resonates with your fans the most and like you feel very connected to them while performing that song? Oh, that's a really good question. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to like dig into my my dis my disog dis Yeah, do it for me. Discography. Discography. Um, but I might text you later and be like, "It's this one." Yes. Um, there's a song that you might be familiar with. It's called Wake Up. Might be familiar. Okay. It wasn't a single, so I never know. Wake Up wasn't a single. No, babe. That was just for me in the moment of my life and feeling like everywhere I went I had eyes on me and everyone was like talking about me and whether it was good or bad it didn't matter. It was just like performing that song was always like the most fun. I feel like I loved it and the audience was like there with me and I I it's not like the most emotional one but it was always it always hit. Did you like touring? I really loved touring. I mean, I couldn't wait to get on stage every night and um especially in the beginning. I mean, I think one of my first shows was in Santa Cruz and it was like at a skate park and it was like 400 kids packed in standing room only. Like crazy. It was so much fun. I had no idea what the I was doing. Like 0%. I was like, I don't I barely know how to sing, but I'm having the time of my life. Right. Right. I had like had very little like training, but I had these songs and I was like gonna go for it. So, it was just like really scrappy and I remember like just feeling like my eyes were wide open and I was just going to like do the best I could. Were you nervous? Yeah. Hell yeah. I was nervous of course, but then quickly after that I was like selling out arenas, right? So, it was this wild thing and of course I loved it. I had the best time. Um, and then I got a little older and like it became a lot. Like it became monotonous and there wasn't so many breaks. Like I would tour and then I would go film a movie and then I would go back to touring and then I would make a record and then I would go film a movie and then it was just like crazy. So I think a after a while I really needed a break and I was just like burnt out and I was like tired of having people on retainer and being responsible for like tons of people's lives to float, you know? Right. Do you feel though when you were on tour because obviously when you were in LA or you were in New York, the press would follow you around everywhere, but do you feel like when you were on tour and you were going from state to state, like it was almost like a break from that or not at all? I think I'm more excited to do it now with because I'm like who I am and I'm I know what I like and what I how I enjoy spending my time and you know I I wasn't like a formed person yet then. So I just spent a ton of time in my hotel room and in the venue and I just went from like bus to venue to hotel room to bus venue to like it wasn't it was really fun and amazing and then it got really old. Yeah, it's a lot. taught myself how to knit while you were on tour. Yeah. Did you I have a lot of grandma like qualities as well. Like I own chickens and I like do sourdough and I taught myself how to like crochet and knit and you know there's there's a lot of like granny things happening. I love to go to bed early. What time do you like to go to bed? I like to be in bed at like 9:15. You know what? I also feel the same exact way about myself. Yeah. And I put on my TV show. I go right to bed. Yeah. I I sometimes don't even put on the TV show. Do you have a show you're watching right now? Well, I'm watching a show with Luca right now, which is really fun because now I have a 13-year-old son and so we can watch like more adult things together. We're watching Wayward. Oh, I've heard it's great. Is Do you like it? Interesting. Yeah, there's still a lot of questions and I'm almost at the end, so I'm a little ready to like When are they going to wrap up the questions? Yeah, but Tony Colette is genius. Yeah. Speaking of Tony Colette, have you seen Hereditary? No. Okay. I miss a lot of things. Having four kids, I miss a lot of things. Like, I'm scared you're going to ask me what I'm listening to right now. No. No. No. I won't. Don't worry. Don't worry. Do you like horror movies at all or No. No. Okay. Then you can't watch Hereditary. I told you I'm not old enough. Oh, yeah. Right. Of course. I'm a baby. Right. But if you ever do find yourself watching Hereditary, ask your husband if he's ever seen it. He's He's not a horror person either. We love murder. Love mystery. Love murder. Don't love like horror. Okay, that's hereditary. Okay. And in a really twisted way, raise your voice walked so Hereditary could run. Wait, what are you saying right now? Like I'm what I'm telling you and like you're going to and you if you watch Hereditary, you will understand what I am talking about. I was literally watching read your voice and I was like, is this hereditary? Wait, she goes to like a performing arts school and sings and what? No, no, no. There's just like certain things I can't spoil Hereditary for you. Okay. Okay. Okay. But you'll just be like, I'm dead. Okay. Literally. Like, do you know what I mean? Like Hereditary, same I need to watch Raise Your Voice again. Yeah. Same I swear I was like, "Oh my god, Hereditary." I know whoever made Hereditary watch Raise Your Voice before. They were a fan. Yes, they were a big big Razer Voice fan. Also just combined genres. Yes. Okay. All right. I I know it sounds crazy, but like if you get it, it is like is so specific. Whatever. I believe you. I believe you. You talked about earlier really enjoying connecting with your fans. Do you feel like acting connecting with your fans via acting, connecting with your fans via singing or connecting with your fans in other like business endeavors? It's all different types of connection for you and like which one do you feel like the strongest with? Well, I have to say music, right? It's you just you're so out there and like frontf facing on your with your words and your terms and your way and you know, it's just it's exposure way differently than like going and filming someone else's script. Mhm. Um, and I think that's why I need I took such a big break. I wasn't ready. I wasn't like in a space to like be sharing like that, you know. Um, but it is the best way to connect, I think, and it's the highest compliment, you know, when people are like, "Oh, your music this this or just showing excitement for like what's to come." It's It really makes me feel good and I can't wait to to feel that again. It's been a really long time. I've missed everybody and I'm always greeted with such like kindness really and truly. Like when Younger got put on Netflix, it had this like whole resurgence and people were so excited to find that show. That show was always like the little engine that could. I felt like people that saw it loved it, but like not too many people knew about it, but it was like this weird it went on for like seven years, was just a very longunning show, you know, and people loved it. But when it was finally on Netflix like a year ago or something, and everybody thought it was like this new show, it was really fun just to have everyone like fall in love with it over again. Um, and then you know the Lizzy of it all is like it's such a highpaying compliment you know um and it's also something that travels with me in a way that I have to like send a little care to myself because you know one of the things that people constantly are like hey like oh my god you were my entire childhood you were my entire childhood and like it's such a compliment and then also I'm like here as a 30year-old woman and I'm Like it's okay, you're okay. Don't worry about it. Like you've done other things that they like, but that one really stood out and that's fine. Right. Right. Like you're like, "Well, what about my other stuff?" A little bit. Sometimes it sometimes it feels like that. Like you're just like, "Oh man, am I ever going to snag him again?" You know? But I think that that, you know, this this time around with music, finally the pressure is off and I get to just like fully be myself and I don't care. Mhm. Cuz you're so happy in your life. Yeah. Yeah. Did you get sick after the rain scene in a Cinderella story? No. Okay. But I'm always sick if you can't tell. Um I'm I think I have like a tough exterior shell and I'm like a little My weakened immune system is like eggshells. But I also have four kids that I'm coming. They're like disgusting little germs. Kids, they are so germy. It's the craziest thing. Yeah. I want to hear your take on that even though you don't have kids. Like is I does it go under like the dog food category for Right. So for those that are unaware, Hillary was shocked when I said I can't have a dog because because No, I'm just shocked by the because I had to fill that in because you know those bags of dog food, it's like a freezer bag of dog food that people keep in their fridge. I think it is so nasty. It bugs me out so much. And like I understand like that is what's best for the dog and I know I can't give my dog a good life cuz I cannot have that anywhere near me. What about just kibble? Well, but so but obviously there's a reason people aren't feeding their dogs kibble anymore, right? You know, they're feeding them these like Yeah. human grade wet like it's so gross. You definitely couldn't ever have it slops out of the bag in a way I've never seen and every time I look at it I'm like Wait, I'm trying to think of like human food that we would eat that would like slop out of the bag. You don't mess with that either. Like what would slop? Like macaroni and cheese. Oh my god. Like when people put spaghetti in a a plastic bag and bring it to a picnic. Get out of my face. Who's doing that? Who's doing that? You've never seen someone do that? They like will be like, "Okay, I brought spaghetti and it's in like a plastic bag." You've never I'm like, you are deffriended immediately. I agree. I hate picnic food. I hate it. I don't want to go on a picnic. First of all, spaghetti is not a picnic food. I also think so. I think so, too. But there are people that have been like, I brought spaghetti. You're like, you brought the one thing you had in your refrigerator. Bring an offering. I hate potlucks. I hate potlucks. I don't want a hodgepodge of what everybody thinks is good. What is fun about that? Right. Let's pick a cuisine and stick to it. Okay. I understand your your enthusiasm around this. Like, you don't want to do the tour around the world of food because I mean, I would if it was made by one person or like, you know what I mean? Like when everyone's like, I brought the No, no, no, no. And I hate picnics. But you know what? This is a perfect segue into Can't wait. Therapist. Yes. As you can tell, I get very angry about certain things. What are you therapist about today? I'm I'm pretty therapist about my my post-nasal drip situation, my my cough. But I was thinking about this and I was like, well, I'm pretty pissed about a lot of things right now. I'm really pissed about getting gray hairs. I don't see a single gray hair. It's happening. It's happening. It's crazy. For the first time ever, it's happening. Uh, no. So, like, oh, so when you're pregnant, you go through like lots of hormonal changes really fast, right? So, I started to notice like, oh, that's so weird. But I was like, just cuz I'm pregnant. Well, now I haven't been pregnant for like 17, 18 months. And these little babies are popping up and it's crazy and I'm just not ready. I just don't like feel ready. And it happens. I can't wait for you to call me one day and tell me it happens. So, I actually found a gray this summer. And what did you do? Did you yank it out? I freaked the out. I'm 25. I'm literally I was I was on vacation. I woke up and I was taking a selfie and I was like, "Wait, something looked really off." Really shiny. And it was just And I turned the camera and it was a gray hair. Yeah. It was the craziest thing. Did you pull it out? Of course. I ripped it out of my hair. It was like a few a few. And I was like, "What?" It's cuz I'm so stressed out all the time. I know that's what it is. It must be what it is. It's like sabotaging. Like nothing about me feels ready for that at all. And like eventually when I feel like I'm like 45, like I think I'd be down. I'm cool with like having that and being like not there's not one part of me that ever wants to be 25 again. Like like I just I hope you're having the time of your life, but like I did it. I'm good. Yeah. I know. No part of me wants to be a different age. Did you enjoy your 20s? Like could you imagine you having a baby a year ago? No, of course not. Um, I think going back to like our previous conversations about like touring and having so much at a young age, right? A lot of excitement, a lot of success, a lot of all those shiny things. Um, once that got old, I was like so ready for something to be like tangible in mine. Like I really was ready to have a baby and I always knew I wanted to be a young mom. So, as quickly as that like came about and I felt ready for it. I didn't know anyone that had babies, none of my friends had kids. I had to like one be me and then go like put myself out there in people groups of people that I didn't know to like find motherhood friends and like learn about how to be a mom and exist in that like capacity. Um, so and then I also got a divorce in my 20s. So, like I had a lot of fun and I had a lot I felt like I was like trudging or floating. Like it was like a very weird combination of an experience for my 20s, but yes, I had fun. So, you said you didn't know any other people that were moms. So, like, and I feel like a lot of people don't know like not only is having the kid hard and taking care of the kid, but then mentally how you are is hard as well. like did you struggle at all with like not being able to like find other people that were experiencing like having a kid and raising a kid and what was that like for you? Yeah, learning how to nurse a baby was like nuts. That's always like I feel like um I feel like having a baby there's always like a cross to bear like and it's you're going to like struggle either getting pregnant, staying pregnant, nursing, or in like labor or something. there's like going to be one crazy thing that you didn't expect to happen. For me, it's always nursing. It's just hard. It doesn't come easy to me. It's like this pressure of this thing that you're supposed to be really good at and it's it's supposed to just all happen and like you feed your baby and it's like no big deal. And it's like that is not how it goes down. It's like painful. It's uncomfortable. Like I don't know. It was just a it's every single time it was hard for me and it was like this thing I wanted to be really good at. Mhm. Um but that was hard. And then yeah, finding your place in your friend group again once your your priorities like change to be your baby and you know everybody's still like going out or just doesn't have those like I mean there's not much more that's a bigger responsibility than taking care of a human life. You know what I mean? It it was like this really big thing. So um yeah, but that was so long ago. I honestly can't remember the like big moments that were that were a struggle, but I know that it was there and it happened. But I found my community and put myself out there and like figured that all out. But um but then yeah, it was like being single and being a mom and I was still in my 20s, right? Um which would like gave me this sense of empowerment but also this sense of like like it's weird to be single and be a mom and bey. You know, you just had your fourth kid and do you when you think about your fourth pregnancy and your first pregnancy, was there certain things like you were so anxious about your first pregnancy that you were like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I I was so anxious about that or I was so scared to do that or I was like was there is there stuff that you learned along the way throughout um different pregnancies?" there's just an ease that comes around with each like subsequent one where you're just like you know this you know that this thing happens you know these feelings you know it's temporary I think that's the biggest thing for me is like I'm such a I'm a pretty impatient person so I want things like this this this this and um and you can't rush that process you have no control over it and so that's It's like the hard the hard thing for me. But you just realize after you do it a few times, you're like, "Oh, yeah. This thing happens. My body's going to change. My this feels like this." And you know, it's you realize it's a blip in like your whole life's journey. It's is really like a snapshot in time and it's and it's quick and it's fleeting and there's like beauty in it and and you know also like hardships and bittersweetness. Um do you want to get into the tell me what's wrongs? Yeah. Okay. So, do you know what I'm so excited about the tell me what's wrongs? Really? Yeah. Wait, you know about the tell me what's wrongs? Yeah. Okay. I've been on three dates with this man from Hinge and he has not complimented me once. He was affectionate in bed but not when we were talk not when we were just talking to each other. I want him to compliment me but I don't want to ask for it. What should I do slash say? This is so I really relate to this because I think that like I don't I'm not I don't know if it's like my love language, but like I don't you got to be able to like compliment in person and like face to face in like a normal setting, not just like in a in a in a bed setting. You know what I mean? Like I struggle with this as well. I feel like if you've had three dates, that's a lot of time with someone. Don't you? Yes. I completely agree. I really struggle with like looking someone in the eye and being like, "You look so good." And like taking myself seriously. Like I get so uncomfortable. It's like you have to be in the the bedroom to like pull or like put I think maybe he's just like awkward. But I think honestly I think her saying something like if somebody said that to me I'd be like okay then I feel I'm curious to know if she's um complimenting him. You know what I And if she's complimenting him, it opens the door for him to be able to do the same. Okay, great point. Right. I don't take compliments. But also, if she's like serious enough about him, then she could just be like, "Hey, like this is something that I kind of need, but also it sucks to ask for what you need." You're like, "Can't you just read my mind? Don't you just know what I need?" Right? I get in this thing with my husband, too. I love to tell him he forgot to tell me he loves me. And he's like, "What? You're crazy." And I'm like, "I said it first today and yesterday and the day before." And he's like, "You're absolutely nuts." Do you remember the first time you guys said I love you? Yes. It was at Pace. Have you ever been there? I have been to Patch the Salmon. Salmon's the best. The best. Yeah. And he said, "Who said it? You said it or he said it." He drew it on the table. Shut up. Oh my god. Yeah. And I looked down and I was like, I know. He's so cute. He's the best. He's the best. What? Yeah. He drew it on the table. He drew I love you in crayon. Mhm. In crayon. Oh my god. I have it. I have it somewhere. I ripped it off the table and brought it with me. I was like, "You're coming with me." And were you like, "I love you, too." Yes. Oh my god. I can cry. I very much loved him, too. I was very excited. Did you get the salmon? Always. Yeah. But also, don't sleep on the snapper. I've never had it. Yeah, you have to get the snapper cuz I get tired of the salmon. Okay. I was going to say I'm tired of the salmon. Go with the snapper, babe. Okay. Yeah. Should we go to pace? Sure. We don't have to. I could tell you I love you for the first time with a crayon. Would you? Yeah. Okay, cool. I really want that. I would love to meet you apache. Don't play with me. But we're drinking some wine. I would drink. I won't like I know. I mean, I'll be a tomato. You'll be But yes, I will happily do that. I have been feeling isolated from my life and friends for about a year now, and I want to be more social again. However, I'm so scared and mad that none of my friends checked in on me or even asked to hang out because I just haven't been a part of any social scene recently. I want new friends, but I'm scared to lose my old ones. What do I do? O, right. Yeah, that's a lot. Well, I think that if they were your friends only for social settings, they weren't your friends. Totally. which is something I learned in co I think this goes back to my theme of like not wanting to be in my 20s again because social circles are just more complicated you know um friendships are like a little more more fickle it seems when you're younger um and like going out and like I don't know people's needs are like at the forefront of their like what they want to do is in the forefront you know so I don't know how old this person is but yeah if no one checked in on you when you were having a a a season of your life where you were like, I need to be a little more like insular, then that's not a good friend. It's a bad friend. Yeah, this is going to sound so dorky and momlike, but um our nanny is the cutest. I'm obsessed with her and she's like 25 and she goes and she'll like join a pickle ball group or like you just have to like find some things that you like to do and go like join a group and it will expand your life instead of looking for all the same things in the same places. I couldn't agree more. My roommate is a runner and she joined uh Venice Run Club, met so many people she loves through running, right? It's just like and then there's like a common right or like when I worked in music I was very passionate about working there and I met so many people like co-workers that became very a huge part of my life and like that was my interest my job was my interest and that obviously isn't the same for any everyone but like when I had that cuz I was in school I was like I had this internship at that became my full-time job but when I had that outside interest it became everything to me and I met so many people and we met at my music job and like everything. Yeah. And I think just having that outside interest is crucial. I think it's just harder in college and I feel like she might be in college, right? I know because your your world is like right there in front of you and it's hard to like get out of that. It's so hard. Like so like in college what I felt was like every it's just like people who psychologist like high school is they're lying. It's the same Like everything feels so important in the moment. And so that's why these people are like not speaking to you and they're going out all the time because in the moment that night out to them is the most important thing. Yeah. I I think I was trying to say that before where it's like what you want is right in front of you and that time of your life, right? Like just the your one night's plans is everything to you and and and when you zoom out of that, it's so silly. But that's what like growing up is. Like I I try to tell my son that when when like he has a thing with a friend or whatever. I'm like this feels like everything to you right now. I I want you to know that I'm like honoring that feeling cuz I understand but it's just going to go away next week or like in two weeks it's going to be like the next thing and but it just feels so big. Do you are there moments that you like look back in your 20s and teens and you're like oh my god in that moment I thought this was the end and the worst thing to ever happen and now I'm like it doesn't even matter and I wish I could tell myself that. Like do you have those moments as well? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Of course. I can't I mean, if you really wanted to, I could I could pinpoint a few, but yeah, for sure. What's one? I mean, I think like a really silly one was I think just because I like grew up in the time of like scandal and like them wanting to like catch you doing something. Everybody wanted to catch me doing something bad. And I remember I was crossing the street with my friend Marco and I was in front of kiten and it was like when jelly bags were cool, like see-through jelly bags, and a paparazzi took a picture of me and was like, "There's a condom in her bag." And I don't know if it was a condom or like a valet ticket. It was a square piece of paper in my bag. And all of a sudden, I got a phone call from my mom and she was like, "Is there a condom in your bag?" And blah blah blah. It was like this. And I just remember feeling like I'm in trouble. I'm caught. I did something bad and I was just like a normal aged. How old were you? I think I was like se 17 or something like I'm like I don't know. It was a condom. I think I'm being safe. You know what though? I actually when I when So there's the accounts like Getty Image Fan Club. There's like things that post like throwbacks like that. Apparently that was photoshopped. Okay. So that's what I'm saying. I can't recall. I just remember getting the phone call from my mom and being like you know, like I was a normal teenager. Like I did normal things and so I think that like of course I don't recall it all but I remember that being a big deal. Was tr was trusting people hard for you back in that day cuz like people would like go to the press and stuff cuz like that's when like tabloids were everything, you know, and like blogs were everything. Was like did you have to learn who to trust? Yeah, there was a few people that I was like, "Oh, I think that person's not trustworthy." Right. Um, I've always had a really good gauge of people. I think it's like a a little talent that I have. Like I I have really good friends and I it doesn't take me long to like figure someone out and or just like figure out that someone's not for me, you know? So, I didn't run in like a huge group of celebs and stuff and I think that was also very good for my health back then, right? I wasn't like spilling out the clubs with like other teen stars and stuff, right? Did you ever like spill out the club? Sure did. Yeah. Was it fun? Like what was clubbing culture like back then? No phones. No phones. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like a lot of the times people would like run me out the back door because like police would be like coming in, right? Have to be like underage, right? But it was just fun. And like it was way we used to spend 3 hours getting ready to go out. Stop. Can you imagine? No. And we wouldn't go out till like midnight. I know. We go out at 8:00 p.m. now. I know. Which is dreamy for me. If I ever have to go out, but not for me. I was so responsible though. If I had like something to do the next day, I would still be up at like 7:30 like tidying my house, right? Would like in the day. So like there was no Uber back then. Would you like call a cab or have a DD? Yes. Yes. Call a cab. Got it. And so the cabs would like wait in the parking lots of like the like Leoo or like Yeah. Yeah. area or whatever the club was and what like Yeah. And you'd have to just like get in the car and it would be like mobs of like paparazzi. Yes. And they would would they like find you back outside as well? Yeah. Honestly, I might pay a lot of money to have one of those nights and just like try to relive the feeling. Was it like I feel like a movie star? I mean, you were a movie star, but No, I think I was like trying to be like just act normal. Just look normal. Right. Like even if you were drunk, don't let him catch you in a blink. Right. Right. Right. And then would you was it like sometimes you would go out and then you would wake up the next day and all the tabloids like you'd walk past a tabloid and you would see yourself? Um, not quite that quick turnaround, but like on Perez Hilton or something. Yeah, you could have like a dick drawn on your face or something, you know, by him. What? Yeah, babe. He would draw dicks on people's faces. Yeah. You don't know this? Do you guys know this? You're all babies. Wait, no. I knew he like drew stuff, but I didn't know it was that vulgar. Oh, yeah. And he just did it. He just ripped it and didn't care. Yeah. Damn, dude. Did you let yourself get like offended by that or were you like this is stupid? I think it was a it depended on the day. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like sometimes you were like loved and sometimes you weren't. Right. I think that this time around I like a little bit bracing for that element because it's so nice to see the excitement, you know, but I just don't want to put too much weight on it because things change with like the tides so fast. Um and and everybody has a platform to make a a a statement or a comment and um so it feels a little unhinged. I agree. And what I was going to ask you, what I was so excited to talk to you about was like what do you think the difference is in celebrity culture back then versus now in terms of like Oh, I have a big one. Yeah. Now you can curate your entire life how you want people to see it. M you couldn't do that back then. So now people have like Tik Tok, Instagram and you can like curate how exactly what you want people to see and know. And back then people just assumed and it was like you did you didn't get to make up your own narrative like you do now. And you can like also quickly respond to things and just be like no, yes, no. Yeah. Like was there ever times where you were like wanting to respond to stuff and you just like couldn't cuz you didn't have the platform to do so? Like you didn't have like the you didn't have like a blog to be like this isn't true or like Yeah. But people like you still really can't Yeah. I guess do that now. Like you can say it but people are going to like assume what they want, right? Or like there's endless like Tik Tok people digging a journey of whatever, you know? Yeah. It's crazy. A normal It's exactly correct. That just like made my life by the way in ways like Leoo. Oh my god. Like I could die. Bottle service at Leoo. Stop dancing on tables. Was it just amazing? The the music was so fun. That's what I used to remember. Oh my god. Like like like 50 Cent and like Nelly and like you know like it was like early 2000s. So it was like like Ashanti, right? And once you were in the club, was it kind of like this sacred space cuz there wasn't camera phones and there was nothing. So it was like we are we can do whatever we want. Yeah. And you'd be like, "Oh, that's that person's table. That's that person's table." And then like Yeah. It was It was really funny. I think I would pay $2 million. $2 million flat for one night like that. Like take me back in time. Have me be like, "We're going to hide. Stop." What was it like at the OG location? Okay, I was just at dance class with my daughter and this I was talking to this old neighbor that I used to have and she was talking to this friend of hers and she's like, I have to tell you. I was like, you are so familiar to me. I can't get over it. Like, I know I know you from somewhere, right? She was like, I don't. And she was like, I was the head head um server at Hyde and I was like, I'm dead on the floor. I was like, the original Hyde? And she was like, yes. And I was like, I can't I can't with you. This is the best. And Hyde was like the Hyde was the spot. And it was just like what was the night? It was this big. Yeah, I was about to say it was very small. Right. It was this big. Yes. And what nights of the week were you like hide night? I can't really remember, but never a weekend. Obsessed. You know that doesn't happen anymore. We don't we don't do that anymore. I feel like it was Thursday. I'm sure it was. Life was more fun. Wow. How do I kindly tell my friend to shut the up about her new boyfriend? I was hanging out with her and a few of my friends and she was on FaceTime with him the whole time. She's just excited. I tried to get her tell her to get off and she just ignored me. That's annoying. Her whole entire personality is her boyfriend now and I don't know what to do. Do I drop her? No. Or tell her to drop her boyfriend? Literally neither. You can't ask her to make that choice. Just be like you are you have boyfriend goggles on. Yeah. I'm like, "Open your eyes. Touch grass, right? Touch grass. Go ground. Take your shoes off. Take But I know the reason I'm so empathetic is cuz I know that when when I get a boyfriend, I will be that way." You will? Don't you agree? A million. Like, it's going to consume me. I know that. I feel I feel for her. Yeah. Cuz that sucks and that's annoying. And you like Yeah. I feel like you need to just let her let her be excited and get that like initial stuff out of the way, that initial excitement. You know what I mean? Yes. She'll come back to you. She'll they always do. But the more annoyed you act like you're going to push her away. Yes. Yeah. You kind of just have to let your friend do it and just be there for your But also, you can pull back from your friend a little bit. If like if every time you guys are hanging out, she's just on FaceTime with her boyfriend, I'd be like, I'm going to go, right? I'm going to leave. See you later. and show her what it's like without you a little. And then she'll be like, "Why aren't you hanging up with me?" And then it's like, "Well, you're always on the phone with your boyfriend all the time." Yeah. Be like, "I miss you." I think if you come back come like with your heart facing forward and you're just like, "I miss you." And like every time we hang out, I don't want to also be hanging out with your boyfriend on FaceTime. Of course. Let's have some one-on-one time, please. Love you so much. Thank you. Have you ever had a friend that you're like, "I hate your boyfriend so much." And like it was like cuz And you're like, "How do I be a good friend to you and still hate your boyfriend? Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah. One of my best friends. He he actually came Oh, just like hit me that like this is going to be in the world. Um, do you want he No, no. He came he came to a holiday at our house and he had to leave and as he like left I like put my door on the back and I was like, "No, absolutely not no. It's over. It's done." like I hate the way he speaks to you. I hate the way he talks to you. You are not you around him. Like absolutely no. And she was like, she basically like was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right. You're right." She was like, "I'm done. I'm done. I'm done." I was like, "Whoa, that was just the most insane crazy." I understand. It's not really happened to me before, but I understand how people could get wrapped in something like super unhealthy um because of like an initial like spark that feels really good, you know. Wow. Um but yeah, that has happened and it's strange. You handled it well though. No, no, no, no. I am I'm like very direct. Are you the one in the friend group that's like are you like the mom of the friend group? Yes. Okay. Yes. Do you feel like you help take care of everyone else and like you're the one that they come to with problems? Um, I think that a lot of us hold that space for each other, like to where we could come with problems, but I'm just very direct. So maybe a little bit too much sometimes. What's your star sign? I'm a Libra. Wow. I need like balance. Right. You're very peaceful. You're non like you don't fight with people. I don't like to fight with people, but I don't like to like have like a rub with someone or or something and then like not work through it. That drives me crazy. It like infiltrates every aspect of my life. I agree. So, I need to like handle my I I fighting with like friends is like actually the worst feeling I think of all time. Yeah. Of all time. Yeah. And the only thing that tops it is a friendship breakup. I think it is. I've never had like a real breakup so I wouldn't know. But like I I just think they're the worst feelings on planet Earth. Yeah. Oh, a friendship breakup could like possibly be worse than a breakup breakup. So, too. I mean, I've never had a breakup breakup, but I'm I think so, too. Yeah. Do you They both suck. Suck. And then like I suck too sometimes, you know? It's like a mixture of just that. Do you remember like at what age you like looked around your friend group and you were like, "Okay, I feel stable in my friend group and my friends and my love life and my social life." Do you remember like what when you felt that? Probably right around my 30th birthday. Like my my now husband came back into my life at that time and I remember looking around the table at my 30th birthday and we were like we had dated before but broken up and gotten back together and dated and broken up and got back together. And I remember looking around the table at my 30th birthday and being like like almost wanting to cry, but I was having like just like a little private moment of like how grateful I was to see the faces that were there and like all that we had been through cuz a lot of like it was just a mixture of a you know really longstanding deep relationships like 17 year friendships, 20 year friendships. Um, and then you know, and also new faces and like new new friends. So, old and new, whatever. I don't know what I'm trying to say. It just felt really good and I was like, I'm on a good path. Like sometimes you have to like friend cleanse. It's okay to edit. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. But you feel like a bad person when you're doing it cuz you're like I Why am I sitting in the seat that I get to go? But also like you feel like editing looks like sometimes it will take something like not showing up to like something that they will think is like very important like do you know what I mean like missing something to like be like the we're things are going to be different with us now like this is I don't want to show up for you in this sense and you don't show up for them in that sense and you feel like a piece of but it is what you need to do and you know it's what you need to do. Yeah. So, the big boy way to have that conversation is to like have the conversation before you just don't show up for them and be like, "Yeah, I I had to I had to do that once and I was like one, you just have to eat you you have to like you have to just like own it and be like, I can't show up for you in this capacity right now. It feels overwhelming and blah blah blah. Like, I need some space." And you know, I've had to do it a few times. And it's like I just I always want my side of the street to be clean, you know what I mean? I don't want to make someone feel bad, right, by like my actions. I rather have a conversation about it. I like really struggle with confrontation like that. I am like the least I There are certain people in my life that I can like say how I'm feeling to. There's like two or three people, her being one of them. And when I do say it, like we have these great conversations, but I really struggle in other painful. It's painful. It's painful. It really is hard. I would consider my sister-in-law one of my best friends. My issue is that her and my best friend since high school hate each other. My sister-in-law seems to keep her issues to herself for the most part, but my friend can never hold back from telling me how she feels about her. I love them both so much, but it feels so immature. I am over it. What do I do? Whoa. I'm so invested in that. Whoa. Okay. Her sister-in-law, so married to her brother. Yes. Her her sister-in-law married one of her best friends, but her best friend and her sister-in-law hate each other. Hate each other like from a while ago. Like, have you ever seen that movie You Again? No. Basically, it's about this girl is getting married and her sister-in-law, they've like hated each other since like they were little. And I don't remember how that movie ends or how they get through it, but that's what I'm thinking about while I hear this question. I feel like the problem is with the friend, right? Because the sister-in-law is like all good on my end. Yeah. She's making it easy for her, which is nice and classy because they're in the same family together. Um I feel like you got to talk to your friend and be like, "I love you both. Like I want you both in my life, but you're making this really hard for me. Can you find a way?" And what if she's like, "You don't get it." Like, and I wonder what it's about. Me, too. Like, what? We need more info. If you're seeing this, DM me with more info. Like, I will catch it. I need to know. Do they date the same person? Like, but how is her best friend asking her to choose between basically family now? See, that's crazy. Yeah, that to me is super selfish. And I agree with you in the sense that I do feel like it is on the friend. I feel it. It's just like a gut feeling I have where it's like that friend is being selfish and maybe that Oh my god. It's like giving bridesmaids. Have you seen the movie bridesmaids? Um yeah. You know what I mean? Like that's what it's giving. Have I seen bridesmaids? Like that's what it's giving. It's like she feels maybe she feels like she's losing you. Yeah. And that's and she's holding on to this drama as a way to hold on to you. You can't You don't need to like be best friends with everyone in the group. You just have to be able to be like civil. Civil. I was diagnosed with OCD at 25. Now that I'm getting the help I need to manage my OCD. I find myself feeling resentful towards my parents for not helping me when I was younger. I actually feel the same way. Sorry. They always joked and would say things like, "You're so OCD, but never took it seriously. I was wondering if this is something you experienced and was hoping for some advice based on your journey with OCD." I have really bad OCD, which is why they're asking about it. Did you ever struggle with anything like that or my like my were your parents like like oh like was therapy normal for you in your family or was it taboo? Taboo. Okay. And did you ever feel resentful like this person feels or were you like that's just how they were? You know, because like of course I think every kid feels resentful of their parents. I think you can have the best parents in the world and you feel resentful somehow someway. Yeah. Which is just like the the course, you know what I mean? Um, I think that you have to take this one, but also I will just say it's it's not in defending the parents, but like that's just the way it was back then. Nobody was having these conversations. There weren't these words to like identify um anxiety and these like conditions and not like so much course of action to like deal with them. And it wasn't normal to put your kids in therapy. and it wasn't, you know what I mean? So, I feel a little bad for the parents, but also bad for the kids because they they they need support and they need honestly I feel like I sometimes do it with my daughter and I'm like, "Oh my god, Banks, like your like she she really struggles with her hair and needing her hair to be like perfect and I have to do it like three times a morning and maybe that's like a little form of OCD. I'm not sure. But I need to like figure out my conversation with her around it because I noticed that if we don't acknowledge it, it gets bigger and worse. So that's what happened with me. So the issue with my OCD was that my dad was very against medication. And I needed I desperately needed it. Like desperately desperately needed it. And I don't have resentment towards that because to him everyone being on Prozac wasn't normal growing up. that wasn't like everyone's not on Prozac. Now it's very normal for everyone to be on like anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds because it is very helpful and it's still we'll still have conversations where he still thinks I shouldn't be on it. Well, I think it's hard for that generation to think that there's like actual imbalances in their ch children's they don't think it's an imbalance. They think it's a problem and they think it's like he would always be like, "Well, just stop. Just stop. Just stop." Which would obviously lead to me like retreating inwards with it and and it getting worse and worse and worse and worse. and I don't have resentment. But yeah, I do wish that I had been able to get on medication earlier. What I like to remind myself when I feel moments like that is I try to like remind myself what I'm grateful for in my life right now and know that if I didn't have any of that, I wouldn't be here talking to you right now. Yeah. You know, like that's what I remind myself. It's just like little things like that. Also, first of all, that was a very sweet thing to say. It's true. But I also have to say that you and this generation being so forthcoming about their struggles in their life is giving such a comforting space for people that you know aren't on TV or aren't they're they're they're they're listening and they're like in the midst of trying to figure out their life. And it's it's it's so simple to say, but it's them not feeling alone. You know what I mean? And even just one generation ago, it was really tough for people to talk about their problems and their imbalances or whatever it may be. So, um I'm really happy that you went through a similar similar struggle as him and you know can talk about it. Yeah, of course. I think it's like it's I feel like with every generation it gets more open. So like it it's more open than the last, but the last was more open than the one before that. And I think like in 10 years we're going to look back at this generation and be like it's crazy that we didn't talk about X, Y, and Z. So I think it's just about like learning and everyone's learning and everyone's I think one thing the phones have been helpful for is like people find these spaces online where they're like, "Oh, this other person's feeling the same way as me." When I had OCD as a kid, the only thing I saw, the first thing I ever saw that I was like, "Oh my god, I have that." Do you remember Dr. Drew? Yeah. I sele OCD rehab with Dr. Drew on VH1. Oh my god. Was the only thing I had ever seen that I was like, "Oh my god, that's what I have." And so that was the only way. So I give a lot of grace to like my parents and people cuz no one knew. No one knew like what that was. And now there's online communities and people on TikTok. I learn stuff about OCD on Tik Tok all the time. So I think as time goes on it'll be better and better and better. But like, you know, but for your kids that are growing up now, like hopefully they're going to be so comfortable speaking about whatever they feel because the world around them is so comfortable speaking about it, which is what I hope at least. Same. Yeah. And it's so good that you're even like you when you're like doing the hair three times and you're like, "Wait, like you have that thought." That used to never be a thought. Like when I used to have to like go back and like do things like four times or whatever, like my dad would be like, "What the are you doing?" Yeah. It's hard because your life is busy and you're as a parent, you just have endless things to think about. Like you're you're you're constantly like thinking about how to get through the day and how to get everybody what they need and where they need to be and all the things. You know what I mean? And then this like bump in the road happens and it's like frustrating, but it's got to be even more frustrating for her, right? That's really like amazing that you recognize that. Like amazing. Like really that's awesome. Before I let you go, I do want to talk about your music video, which is your first music video in like 10 years. Yeah. What So, can you tell us anything about that, the process behind it? What's it like? Oh my gosh. Um, okay. So, I worked with an amazing video director. Her name's Lauren Dunn. Um, and we had a ton of fun. I mean, it was one of those crazy days where you like gorilla shooting where you're just like, "Oh my god, there's not a single minute of the day to break, right?" Um but the concept is like quite simple and I think when you listen to the song you'll see the the journey of the two me I guess you know the the girl who kind of had an an experience and then me now watching her and I don't want to say there's like satire involved. It's really just like storytelling and like meeting meeting yourself where you where you landed and kind of like looking back on an experience and like tying a little bow around it and being like, "Okay." And then there's like butterflies that are big themes in my life since Metamorphosis. And there's a little sweet butterfly moment in the video which I really love because it's just I feel like being where I am now, it's really nice to like send love back to yourself, you know, that's gone through whatever it's taken you to get wherever you are, you know? And um so I like all those little nods and those little like gifts that you can send back to yourself to be like, "Hey, like it was cool. We got here." That is really beautiful. That is really beautiful. Oh, thank you. I mean, by the way, it's filled with like amazing lighting and glam and dancing and sparkles and all the all the fun things. Like she did some really cool camera trickery that I don't understand. Um, but you know, the concept was was just that and I really loved it. But I think the idea of sending love to your younger self is something my therapist tells me all the time and I never listen to her. But you saying that just now like really resonated with me. We're all so busy and I think we're all so used to like recovering quickly from anything that happens to us in our lives because life goes by so fast. So to just like nod to it and remember it and like give it a little bit of grace is important. And it could be with like the big things or the small things. I'm really excited to see it and I'm really excited for everyone to hear Mature because it's amazing and I can't wait to like you love it. Listen to it on streaming services. Like it's so good. I'm like playing the beat drop in my head right now. It's so good. That makes me so happy. Thank you so much. Love it. I'm sending it to you today so you can just Please listen. Just listen to it. Also obsessed with your little Easter egg moment for your birthday post. Oh, I caught that. I caught that. Justin, did you hear that? He caught that. I caught the Easter egg. So, Hillary, what did we learn today? We learned that I have a cough. We've learned that you have a cough. Um, a tickle in my throat. Um, what did you learn today? I learned on the surface level that pop star Hillary Duff is back and like really, really, really back. And I'm really so excited for everyone to hear the new music and experience what I've been able to experience. And I also learned that talking to you and you being like, I don't remember some of this I was 14. Like, and then you being like, do you remember your stuff at 14? It's like, oh, just because what you were doing was different than me doesn't mean that like we both weren't kids and we both don't have like universal feelings of just like forgetting some that happened when we were 15. Yeah. Like just because your stuff is more immortalized in like like online and in video, it doesn't make it any easier to remember. And I think that's what I learned today. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, you said it nicely. Sometimes I can't quite always figure that out, but you said it nicely. Yeah, that's that's what I was like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense that she doesn't remember what that was like." She was 15. I don't remember my dayto-day at 15 at all. Okay. I learned today that I love having conversations like this. It's so nice to connect. Like, I know we met before, but we don't really know each other that well. And you're just a gem. And it's so like it's so nice to just have a conversation that takes like lots of trails and it's like human connection is what this whole experience is about. And so um I loved it. Loved you today. Yeah. I mean when you went to go pee, I looked at Louise and I said, "This has been a dream come true." Like this has been so fun. Really truly. I'm I was like so excited to come on. I mean, I was so excited to have you. We have to do it again. I would love to anytime. You're the cutest. Love you. I'm gonna write I love you apache. We're gonna have a patch date. We have to have a And I'll get the snapper. Snapper. Yep. Well, Hillary, thank you for coming on the show. Anytime. Do you want to give a little bye Bye, Thanks for having me. Oh my god. You're This is the finale. You're the season finale. I totally forgot. That is an honor. I'm dead. This is the season finale. the finale, Yes, this is this is it. This what a season this has been. This has been crazy. And I You get a nice long break. I get like a few a few months off. I think I'm going to take a few months and Good for you. Do my work on other And I wish we could go to Leoo. Don't. Seriously, I told you I'd pay $2 million. And I meant And I meant it. You were the most incredible season finale. Like once we came to the conclusion that you were going to be the season finale, it was the mo it was like a puzzle piece fit and it just has been even more better than I thought it would be and I thought it was going to be amazing and I love you. So, thank you. See you next season,