welcome to acquiring minds thank you will thank you for having me Amir you have acquired four businesses three in-home services one in digital marketing and you are doing this under the banner snowball Industries so we're going to hear all about snowball and what you've learned through these multiple Acquisitions that can help other entrepreneurs who are looking to buy a business and maybe those who have already bought a business but first some background on you please Amir yeah I appreciate it as well yeah and so you would know since uh since we last talked we actually closed on on two more Acquisitions so now it's now it's six all right great yeah we've been we've been busy I love it so a little bit of background about me um you know I'm from LA and I have my wife and and daughter with me that actually live my wife lives with me obviously and then my daughter's like five ten minutes away and we've moved to Los Angeles where I moved to Los Angeles when I was 16 and fell in love with the town and pretty much uh stuck stuck there and my background is in the cyber security and Enterprise I.T when I first started my career since then gravitated more into online businesses and digital marketing that's actually how I fell into a private Equity buying and investing in a small SAS um e-commerce d2c businesses over time gravitated they partnered with a with a family friend and since then um with his background helping companies go go public and in the otcqb a partnered in in doing a lot of um advisory Services where early stage companies that have some Revenue looking for um for Capital our path is to guide them to go public and help facilitate that and that's relevant to where where we'll talk about snowball as well but you know doing that and helping helping early stage companies um in their early stages including another private Equity I was involved with called King makers you know helping Searchers finding a business going through their due diligence process and from pre-loi connecting them with lenders legal and the whole m a process all the way to acquisition and post acquisition support was my role with with my team um and that's that's pretty much has been a lot of my background in in m a and the trades themselves great just want to Circle back a little bit so so you you were kind of more of a technology guy and you're kind of early entrepreneurial dabblings were in buying digital businesses small what uh SAS businesses or content businesses sort of thing sauce content e-commerce uh also um operating one within the banner of the private Equity company that I was involved with and so there are a lot of people out there some of whom have been on the podcast who make a career out of that and they stay in in that digital world uh why did you not the multiples got out of hand and were very dependent on different platforms so if Google has an algorithm update or Facebook has a change in their policy very frequently you're you're you know beholden to that platform and we realized early on that the HVAC Plumbing electrical type businesses weren't in fact they were under invested and so the multiples as they were getting out of hand and the risk increasing they made it unattractive for us to uh to stay in that in that industry that's a strong statement Amir that uh you you left digital because basically you couldn't find a niche where there wasn't significant platform risk but as I've looked at digital businesses and I'm I'm not alone here I tend to agree it's really hard to find a business that a digital business whose sources of traffic or whatever it might be customers are Diversified enough to not feel like there is enormous risk or that it's all kind of bound up in a single platform yeah and to add to that your competitors are are Global you could have a business in LA and you're competing with someone in in India and versus if you have a plumbing company in in Austin all your competitors are just within that that locality and so it makes a lot more difficult anybody with with the internet access and a laptop can start a Content site and getting especially now with with a lot of um no code type software out there can create an e-commerce website drop shipping and everything else so it became competition made it made it a lot more difficult too yeah right well it's often said that the magic of the internet is that anybody can spin up a business and and have a global audience um instantaneously uh and of course that works both ways that if you do that so too can everybody else so the competition is um the barriers to entry are low which is good if you're on the outside and terrible if you're on the inside yeah so the most definitely eroded quite a bit over the past 10 years so yeah yeah and not to mention covid and and just the desirability of having owning a remote business and and just the the lifestyle that it affords and so so much kind of people um chasing after that you mentioned King makers which I believe today goes by acquire same group same folks uh that so I they haven't been mentioned I don't think on the Pod maybe once or twice but they're they're a name um in our our world and they're sort of um I don't want to speak out of turn here but sort of an educational um business and also kind of co-investing and and helping the Searchers that they educate then go off and do the thing and improve the businesses they've got a whole model that they've that they've worked on so you were involved with them and then kind of learned a lot you were one of the people helping the Searchers that went through the kingmakers now acquire a program and and chose to kind of do it yourself is that the evolution so the evolution is actually uh I was one of the founding team members um I was the director of m a um and the idea is exactly what you just said is helping Searchers actually own a significant higher equity in the business post acquisition close to 70 to 80 80 percent um and walking them through the whole process including SBA educating on on them on that um and really honing in on what their strengths are doing a bit of a SWAT analysis on on their weaknesses their strengths their competitive advantage and everything else so that you know if hbac is the background that they have or if it's wireless companies or if it's a granite then we lean towards searching for businesses or you know at the time um that that matches a bit of their background and that's important for for SBA lending in general for it to have some background in the business that you're acquiring although not always which we're gonna get to when we talk about operators which we will do deeply so you strike out on your own and what is the vision or at least what is the kind of the Inception of snowball because I Know It iterated uh in the early days so walk us through that quickly sure so it wasn't so much on the on our own as we're searching and sourcing more businesses we're finding businesses that are above the um limit that SBA provides and sbas is right around five million dollars there's obviously banks that would make an exception to that but we're seeing businesses that are 10 15 million dollars and my co-founder Devin Sony at the time met with my other co-founder Xavier at a summit that um investor one of our investors connected them with um and this is pretty much the origin of of snowball that I'm getting into where um they hit it off they were talking about you know the trades how their um a recession uh resilient and and pandemic resilient a lot of people like to say the Recession Proof but you know there's there's more than anything else there's a resiliency that is built into them with best practices and as soon as they met the same mind connected well Devin called me hey you gotta meet these guys Xavier called his co-founder sieva and then you got to meet these guys and so the four of us within a matter of a few days connected on a zoom call got along so well we decided to meet in person and come up with a joint venture where a snowball came into a fruition um Xavier and save and Devin flew down to to La the four of us at the time I'm involved in a in a restaurant where I like to say I enjoy the fruits of other people's labor it's not an easy business but but in during covet it was shut down so I had the privilege of using the facility and and the four of us pretty much Mastermind snowball from 10 a.m to to 10 p.m and broke bread and amount of time with each other really building and bonding and that was pretty much the right around say June July of of 2020 uh within within the four months period since then we identified a few businesses who wanted to acquire and really honed in on on the on the hvacna plumbing company um out in in Northwest Arkansas and the other one in in Fairfax Virginia great and where I'm talking you to to you today you are in Northwest Arkansas in that acquisition and I am in Arlington Virginia not far from Fairfax or other acquisition for the uh The Listener paying close attention the the Xavier and sieve that you refer to might be familiar names enduring Ventures is their holtco they are big on Twitter if you were at SM bash they were on stage at SM bash um and uh they're mentioned on my first million I mean they they're people who are who are known with enduring Ventures so just want to make sure that that's clear and when you say you all kind of there was this Chemistry Between You Sierra Xavier and Devin it was uh personal kept well I assume it was personal chemistry but it was also around a vision I guess and and just the the appealing nature of kind of Trades and how the appealing business characteristics of Trades but I also assume kind of the untapped potential and the the thing that a lot of people who are listening will know well which is that they're maybe not as digitally forward or they don't have the best practices and so there's a big opportunity there to professionalize which is really the name of the game for again a lot of the listeners correct that and if and a few things the chemistry outside of the personal which you know it's to this day you know when you we have the privilege to continue having that partnership with your co-founders and and get along with them so well it's it's remarkable um but also our core values and into value investing and and seeing you know people like Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger and Berkshire Hathaway and how they operate over the over the decades and how they managed uh capital and and the reputation of the businesses that they Acquired and how important that is to them our approach was exactly the same way the reason snowball is called snowball is a hat tip to to Warren Buffett's autobiography uh by the name same name it's not well yeah yeah yeah I've I've listened to that book that's right so we all grew up on on those values while read his books and we all wanted to do the right thing and and show that we can have impact um a driven company um while also doing good and and providing growth within value to not only um our investors but all stakeholders would include our employees our partners our vendors and everybody else and another link to that is outside of the trades being a good business to be in it's also having impact on the the most amount of people because you just you can't Outsource at least to this state um a plumber to come to your house and and fix your toilet or an HVAC technician to repair your air conditioning unit um so us having a path we're providing um people with the ownership in the business that they that they work in which is the whole idea for us to go public is that Equity component and being able for them to have their net worth tied into the business that um they provided the biggest value you know in their best years for them to be able to continue enjoying that for years to come and pass it on to their next generation is it was a big mission in snowball's Inception so you have you've constructed the business entity such that providing employees all the way down and perhaps especially the field Crews the ability to buy Equity into I assume the parents entity snowball yep and that will be the equity that we all hope snowballs into something significant and and so this of course is not something that um your average problem plumber typically has access to so so it's it's hopefully providing a great financial um asset for his or her family um and how would you say how would you differentiate that from a startup offering you know shares to early employee or to all employees in Silicon Valley so it's it's it's similar at the differences that the trades never been privileged to have that option it's always was the Silicon Valley the startups the technology companies that had that as a path of ownership for their Engineers their marketers and and every staff member that they have at the typical plumber never had access to own um stocks in the company that they operate in and we have plumbers that have shares it's literally part of our acquisition process to provide shares um to you know the field staff and and the general managers and whoever wants to participate and it's not just acquiring into the um interest novel which many have that they prefer owning shares in in the company as opposed to um getting a cash bonus and they want to get shares instead because they believe in the mission and the growth of the company we also provide us as a retention and Recruitment and part of our acquisition and it's something that now people are asking for it on a regular basis it's like hey how can I get more shares in a company how do I you know you mentioned the fundraising you have how can I buy more shares I want to have more Equity stake in snowball it reminds you know just to tie in a little bit to what we're discussing earlier uh one of the things that impressed the on me and our co-founders too was you know the GES and GMS of the 50s and 60s and where they provided that American dream where you can do good work and participate in the growth of the company you're working in through um through the retirement program that they provide that's exactly how we wanted it how we want to operate we want to bring back good American manufacturing type values into the trades to again use the um comparison or contrast it with Silicon Valley the there it's a little bit more speculative obviously because the the startup that you're working for that stock isn't likely to be more worth much I mean just looking at the Raw percentages of the of the chances there yeah um in your case it's a different type of business yes you want to snowball and yes you'd like to you'd like for this to grow as uh very large but it's um these are these are linearly growing businesses not um not potential you know unicorns although I'm not saying you couldn't get to a billion dollars um so so anyway you know respond to that uh that that difference we purchased like I said we've we purchase not speculative businesses with cash flowing businesses and then lucky for us there's a lot of investors that are interested in in cash flowing businesses and and the valuation as soon as you we acquire a business at whatever multiple you know four or five um times their um their earnings when when you combine it under the snowball umbrella and you start um consolidating those revenues under one one um a holding company well there is a exponential effect in the multiple expansion so now as a group when you add a million dollar in ebitda business it's a snowball well you know fast forward and we're doing five million then 10 million your multiples goes from uh four times earnings to eight times to 15 and plus um that's tangible and exactly what the market is currently pricing it at both at the private and and public markets because we're tracking both um and that's something that even as we're doing our Capital raises There's an actual stock value to our shares so they know exactly hey Snowball right now is value that's 46 million it translates to 30 cents per share and then when we do the next phrase you know because we closed on two more Acquisitions it added this much more to our revenue and our bottom line our valuation is now pegged at 50 cents and so on and so they can see that growth um year over year as each Milestone that we hit until we actually go public and so on the point of going public that of course is when the the true liquidity of the shares can occur what what does that look like what are you telling your employees and and the employees of your prospective Acquisitions about sure yeah so our right now we're tracking for q1 Q2 of 2025 to go public yeah depending on how quickly we will finish our audits for 2024 we'll dictate um a woman go public in in 2025 but that's pretty much the the path that we're headed and at the size that we will be by that time um the New York Stock Exchange would make the most sense we have discussed the Toronto Stock Exchange if we go that path and it'll probably be sooner and then 2025 regulation and and the cost of being public and staying public is significantly less at the TSX um including the type of audits you would do you know private versus a public it's not as astringent and understood everything else that you would have have to pay and to continue being listed but right now our track record is in two years um and and the only way that it would be sooner is if we decide hey we want to go through the TSX and what would um make that decision is if we passed the 100 million dollar Mark um before 2025 and we are we are under discussions with some companies that will bring us closer to 120 plus uh before end of the year so that's the key Milestone 100 million dollars in in Revenue um which in HVAC I would imagine uh equates to 10 to 20 million dollars in ebitda correct and we do have overhead as a Consolidated company at snowball um but it would equate to about 15 to 20 million in the the portfolio levels and can you say what you're at now right now uh we're at tracking for 45 million in Revenue especially with the new acquisitions we closed on uh recently um we should be around three and a half million by end of the year Consolidated are you aware of anyone else pursuing this I mean is this is this there's probably private equity uh rolling up particular like trades and and other sweaty businesses uh that I'm unaware of and I assume they're the exit they're also looking for is is is an IPO uh um are you similar first of all are they I don't really know that I'm just speculating and are you all similar to to that Playbook uh I guess the fact that you're offering Equity to employees is different but comment on that please we don't know enough um companies or not enough that many companies that are actually going public um through the trades as a path for liquidity and there's a lot of private Equity that have their second flip that's usually the The Playbook that they're at eventually you get to a size that the second flip is to go public we do know of three companies that that's where um where they want to be headed and they're looking for the right timing for them one of them shared with us that they're looking to do it in about eight years and another one is preparing for it now which means it might be in also two to three years and it just takes time um to get to that and to get listed um but for us the reason that's important for it to be day one being a publicly traded company and that was you know the whole idea of of snowball outside of obviously the equity stake for for our employees we've noticed with sellers the one of the biggest concern is hey if I sell my business to you when is the next flip I know you talk about Legacy I know you talk about culture you're going to take care of my staff but you're not going to be the one that's still owning the business in in five years in three years who are you going to flip the next one when is that happening and so for us we're able to right away address that and say when you sell to snowball um you sell you sell forever because our flip is to be listed our liquidity event for investors is to be a publicly traded company and at that point there is no second flip and all investors have an equity stake in the company including yourself as a seller if you want to retain a portion of your exit into snowball shares and so you can participate with that growth and you can have that second bite of the apple with the rest of the investors that we have when we go public and and they like that quite a bit because then they know hey the people that they're talking to right now are the people that are going to continue taking care of their brand their equity and their staff over over the long time well and to your point about what you just said about Brand This is a topic that we're going to hit directly but you keep the brands of the businesses that you acquire which is um probably also appealing to these sellers interesting that the sellers I mean maybe it's not interesting maybe I'm underestimating them but you know for all of the talk about how a lot of these small local service Home Services businesses don't have the professionalization sometimes the word used is sophistication that they are sophisticated enough to understand the private Equity model that you know if a private Equity buyer is talking to them that private Equity buyer um has their own exit plans so they're not so they they get that 100 100 there and they're very keen extremely as to it's a small community they they talk and they share What multiples and they received What multiples the other so and so did and what do they need to actually prep in order to achieve that their coaching organizations and training organizations set up specifically to get you exit ready and around that really yeah absolutely quite a few of them um and Coach them even on on the p l side hey all the trucks that you have that you own lease them so that um your overall numbers look better and start um bringing a management team because you'll be able to get a higher multiple if you show you actually have a management team as opposed to you know the owner operator is doing absolutely everything and anything and so and it's a one-year process it's a two-year process sometimes to be able to achieve that but when you model it for them that you'll be able to get one two three turns higher in your multiples exit it's attractive for them to start getting exit ready absolutely it's uh it's even if it is within within the community and when you say the community do you mean kind of all Home Services all trades or specifically HVAC all Home Services no okay the ones that I've been involved with because we go to trades events quite a bit it surrounds a Pool Service Garage Doors Roofing Electrical Plumbing um Landscaping so all these trade trades you know fumigation and so on you know what I wonder if those those businesses the coaching businesses that are helping to get them exit ready um are telling them about Searchers you have this other option where you could sell to an individual um or if it's all just you know kind of um thinking is private Equity is the is the target audience of the sale I think they definitely coached them towards private Equity as the bigger exit but they do talk about searches that you'll have different people and that will reach out to you usually private Equity is the one that people know that they'll be able to negotiate the highest cash exit yeah we've come across that ourselves quite a bit yeah yeah and we're not the biggest cash buyer because you know we part of our process is actually this to disqualify businesses that the only thing they're looking for is like the highest exit and usually there's there's issues with that as well if you just give me as much cash up front and I just want to uh and I just want to leave the business as and we're okay with that but um our approach is make sure like we're we're at the core values level and we're also in alignment that you care about the culture you care about training and development and that breeds into your rank and file and we'll be able to flush that out regardless but that's one of our ways of disqualifying a deal well let's segue into when you're talking to Sellers and you know who's operating these businesses when you acquire them and then who operates them after what's your model there anybody doing this at any kind of scale I.E anybody doing it more than being the owner operator themselves has to have a Playbook or a preferred way of having these multiple entities operate what is snowballs snowballs ways to always identify GM to operate a business post acquisition and that GM would be either from within the company or us recruiting from our Network or start the reaching outside of our Network it's really important for us to make sure that the business can be its own Standalone without day-to-day management of the of the holding company and with that means let's also make sure that within the first 30 days of acquisition have a workshop identify who's the leadership team Empower them to take start taking ownership in their own decisions a hundred percent okay if you make mistakes we coach to coach you through it in fact we expect mistakes because that's usually an indication that you're willing to think outside the box and and push the envelope um as opposed to just staying within lanes and not deviating from them and but that's really key to what we do if we can't identify fi general manager to run a business even right now as we're discussing an acquisition in Washington state and if we can identify a general manager either from our own network or within the business itself then it's not an attractive business for us it will wait until we have um someone identified there or if it businesses within half an hour or 40 minutes it approx physical proximity to a business that we already have operating then that's okay if there is no Management in place because then we can lean on the back office support and Leadership of the business that we have within physical proximity yeah and the GMS if they they come from internal or they come from your own network is there is it more commonly a versus b or so is there an expectation you have that they'll come from outside or that they'll come from within so so far it's 50 50. we start from within we'll start identifying part of our due diligence and conversation with the seller um you know who would be a GM we get a chance to check their background check their work history and then interview them as well um if we if we see that that skill isn't there and and it's not something we can develop um and we can develop it but not you know from day one it will be over time that they can be an operations manager and then a general manager then we want to bring someone with experience from outside the organization and typically that would be someone that is working for a company that is at least doubled or tripled the size of the company that we've acquired because you want to buy where you want to be headed towards so they know what that company looks like what the organization makeup is what is their DNA it's five million business is very different than 10 and very different than 20. and so if you're five or six or seven you want to get to 20 hire someone and that is already working in that environment and from the same industry yes so so if you have uh 10 million HVAC business that you're contemplating putting an offer on uh or closing on and it's doing you know 1.5 million 2 million in ebitda you are gonna go out there and and you somebody from the team somebody internal is not likely to be the GM you are going to go out and look for somebody currently running a 20 million or even 30 million dollar HVAC business um and are the and do I do you have a roster of those people already I mean given how active you've been in the industry are are you kind of having to you know not start from a standstill but you know there are you know you might be reaching out to somebody for the first time with every every new acquisition so uh we have we have a deep Network um at snowball one of the decisions we made is any person we we hire is from the trades and so our CEO is you know second generation uh HVAC Tech he worked in wholesale has manufacturing relationships has done Consulting our VP of sales and our general manager now of our marketing company same thing 15 years from the wholesale side and they're all pretty networked so if I'm looking for someone and in um in Missoula Montana it's running the operation or Plumbing operation and I don't have one identified there chances are and we can reach to our Network you know maybe two or three degrees of separation and they're willing to relocate um so a lot of times they might not have actually be within that location and they have some trades background so if we have a plumbing company it's okay for us to bring someone that has a background in HVAC or electrical as long as his um operates the business the way we operate a business which is very retail minded with processes and systems and um is has a financial um background not so much in running a p l but at least managing a p l and a budget and knows what what good looks like and I know that's a bit of an advantage for us compared to other searches but that was very purposeful for us so let's let's build our Network let's build our bench and let's make sure our bench itself has a has a good referral Network for us to lean on Emir you just said how you you recognize that you all from you know the the Deep Network and how active you are in the space you have the luxury for lack of a better word to to be able to really you know find somebody to move to Missoula Montana who's got a lot of experience and so on and probably a lot of my listeners are are not in such a position um that said you and I and our pre-call did discuss how you do pretty strenuously advocate for searchers if they're to buy a trades business that they bring in do a similar model where they they buy the business and they hire an operator to come in with them uh for the transition and Beyond and not to um so that the buyer the Searcher can be hands off and just step away the buyer the Searcher needs to be active uh but not but but the day-to-day of the business the operations of the business the keeping the trains running on time my phrase of choice that is something that that you hire somebody else to do so that you can do the more strategic things from day one I have referred back to this model now in multiple interviews and it was uh you who sort of crystallized it and really and really leaned on on that is something that you just fundamentally believe people should do so I hope I haven't taken all the words out of your mouth please please tell us in your own words and elaborate on on why you not only why you this model is good because it's kind of self-evidently good but like sounds good but it also sounds a little too good to be true why do you believe it's actually so possible okay so um 100 agree on that and I appreciate you're you're continuing to to pass in that word because it's actually really important in in a lot of aspects so let's touch on on the first thing you said on us being in a lucky position because of our Network we created that luck um it was a very purposeful effect that hey if we're going to continue doing Acquisitions we don't want to be in a situation where we don't have a GM um especially if it wasn't identified within uh so what the Playbook that I'm about to share is pretty much the Playbook that I would do if I started from scratch if I were as a Searcher myself and I wouldn't have experience in in um in the trade that I'm about to do an acquisition so first um let's talk about the why um when you when you buy a business and what's attractive about it it's the cash flow it's that consistent cash flow year over year for the past 10 years and that cash flow has in it baked in many years of experience many years of mistakes many years of a trial and error why would you like to reintroduce um uh uncertainty to that cash flow and the whole reason that you bought it was because of its stability that it's been growing year over year especially when now you're putting your own personal guarantee in your home on the line on top of it you should do every everything you can to de-risk that possibility and so that's on the why on the on the personal side from from your end on the Y on the on the second side of it is on the employees that you bought the business that they continue to operating and they're afraid they're scared there's uncertainty on their end and they didn't want to sell at the business they didn't even know it was going for sale so someone that is out of their industry getting introduced to run the business their you know are their jobs on the line are their paychecks in question are things going to change now because someone that doesn't have a background but just wanted to own a business is going to um like create instability for them for their family for their mortgages loans for their rents so that's the why and and it should see it should see sit as a as a responsibility of the searcher um and then and then as far as like um the importance of hiring a GM and how to go about it um when you when you hire a gym with experience you bring with you um that level of credibility but also empathy and care that I care about this business to be successful I want to take it to the next level I brought someone that is from a business that is you know double the size triple the size has been doing this for 20 years here's this pedigree I'm right along with them um to be able to understand the business and and help um with any systems implementations and and anything that he's he's not within his strengths right alongside with him with his leadership training whether it's Financial intelligence whether it's marketing whatever strengths that the Searcher typically has that they can bring to the table um so my Approach in in doing that if let's say six months to a year from now uh I'll be interested in in buying a business and I start looking is start getting involved in the community go to trade events and join associations there's every city and every state has one for contractors those associations are are not tied to you actually having a Contracting license you can be a business advisor you can be a financial advisor you can be a marketing advisor provide some value to join that Association and start going to their events and and networking and not so much to hire the people that are within that Association the chances are they know someone and they'll start sharing that hey I'm looking for a general manager I'm acquiring a business in in San Antonio and HVAC company do you know any someone said well I know someone and but you know they live in LA or you know they live in in Virginia but maybe for the right opportunity they're reload okay so you being part of the community and being value at will make a difference in how much they would want to help you in finding that so that networking starts from day one of when you're ready to search to make your life easier and I would even encourage and this is where a lot of searches probably don't go this route but it's something that I would do especially if I'm going to risk my um my net worth on it is work for six months in a well-run business find the best operator in your city that is doing 10 plus has systems in place has a good branding basically the outcome you want to achieve when you buy a smaller business and work at a discount so if let's say you think you're worth 100 200 000 a year it work for 50 to 60 anything that just pays your basic needs very frequently the smaller operations are that their strengths isn't accounting their strengths isn't marketing and so provide that service for them but in return ask it to be involved in the in leadership discussions and in running a HVAC service Plumbing business say hey I don't I don't want to learn the business um of fixing HVAC but I want to learn the business of running an HVAC company and for six months be very transparent about what you're trying to achieve and it's a trade between the two of you in terms of you get you know high level services at a discount by providing additional value and learning and and just by doing that you understand more of the details of you know even negotiating with manufacturers wholesalers taking advantage of rebate programs that you would never be aware of being outside in uh can save you a ton on on margins and um and programs that they have that a lot of Trades people in the trades don't know um working with a well-run company will be very much so exposed to it and knowing how to take advantage of that so you have a bit of a leg up on in other searches when when you buy business and that would be 100 my my best approach you want to go about it with the Optics of de-risking it from day one you have the business never had to deal with debt you're introducing debt that business went through many years of um of seasonal uh Ebbs and flow and economic recessions they know how to navigate it very well you've never been in that position and so bringing someone that has been there can be your right hand guy from day one and that that's that's probably would be like my my biggest um advice to any Searcher going in in the acquisition path yeah well Amir that does sound great and quite convincing it does have the prereq prerequisite however that the searcher is committed to a home services acquisition or or if you use this playbook for some other industry that they need to want to know the industry that they're going to buy a business in and many Searchers do but many don't many are are ultimately just driven by the deal that they can get really um so so I just that that needs to be that caveat needs to be pointed out um but yes how strong to buy an HVAC business after you've worked in another one uh well-run one for six months and and really got your hands dirty and no you know understood what it looks like um and then you know built a network and and found an operator to come with you to buy that business The Operators more experienced than you but at least you have um six months of experience which helps your own true capabilities but also your credibility with both your operator and your new employees so it's a it's a it sounds like a great recipe um great Amir and and um to the point about oh how do you incentivize uh operators so I I know this is a topic unto itself um probably for HR Specialists but give us just some bullet points a minute on if you were buying a an HVAC HVAC business in Missoula Montana you know what are the broad Strokes of a of a compensation package you would offer to an operator to have them go move there and run that business yeah as as a as a Searcher will be slightly you're a bit more limited as opposed to as snowball because we have the equity component we talked about and and a few other incentives that we can provide but as a Searcher I would absolutely tie him into the um for the GM position to ebitda and and by saying that you can just have a baseline this company is doing one million let's say um anything above 900 000 or you can be even a million uh whatever economics that you want to um incentivize them over a time and they get 10 of that profit share building a budget with them that hey you can participate in this in this 10 or if it's based on a growth that you want to motivate them while maintaining gross margins then you can provide a a budget where hey if we hit these Milestones every month or every quarter you get paid where you hit this revenue and thresholds while maintaining this this margin so if you want to optimize for growth and then we will base it on on gross margin and within the budget if you want to optimize for the bottom line and stability then you'll say anything above X and on on ebitda and you'll get a percentage of it and that would be the the two approaches on like what am I trying to achieve um at snowball we have a little bit more flexibility we can dial it in based on position whether it's the service manager the construction manager or the general manager and so divisionally will will adapt and they'll have their own budgets that rolls up into the full end to the complete entity at the top and add to it also stocks and equity and I would encourage um as Searchers to think with ownership in mind for the GMS especially if they want to have a long-term engagement they can have a vesting period on that Equity portion with them with the one year a hurdle but a lot of Searchers um might not be interested in that path so well they might not be interested why because they want to keep as much of the economics as much of the equity as possible exactly and yeah and one other question Amir just on on kind of the two models that you spelled out of how to structure a profit share um either growth of Revenue while maintaining gross margins if you wanted to be kind of more growth oriented or growth of ebitda or growth of Evita while maintaining gross margins percentage of vibada and so let's say um you just care that the business is doing you know 10 even though or fifteen percent ebitda and right now when you bought it you it was doing one million as long as anything above um continuing to keeping that status call anything above that you don't care how it's achieved ten percent of that um will will go to the GM so if you close it to 1.2 million um out of that 1.2 million that Delta is 200 000 to when you bought it in the Baseline of the million so twenty thousand will go to the general manager um and you can you know create a if you if you want to make sure that the ebitda margins are not eroding and they're not going below 10 then you can just say um at the minimum it has to be 10 percent of was even if you grow it then you won't achieve that that Milestone it has to be between above 15 and you can even create ladders that if it's above 15 um Evita margin while also growing it then you get 15 of the um ebitda difference um or if it goes uh closer to below that then it will be 10 so you give them additional uh motivation and incentive to keep the margins above 15. Amir is there some sort of uh book or a reading material on structuring these incentive packages or is this because it you know there's so many little tactics and levers to pull um and for somebody to get a primer on it I'm sure would be helpful um rather than than just being able to you know listen to it on a podcast is there is there some thing you you point people to or have you just accumulated this knowledge piece by piece over the years so I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by extremely talented people and so let's talk about that for a second every person within the snowball organization is better than and what they do and that's been on purpose and I want people that um that are better than me I know what my strengths are and my strengths is more on the people's side and Leadership and vision versus my CEO over operation and and Leadership is and Leadership training is more his strengths and we have a coach a director of Education that we have his background spans over many decades and he's been from the coaching industry and he's run companies and he um consulted and and his talents helps us become better as a team so talking to them regularly learning from them as far as different incentive packages for the trade specifically that are based on a budget and tried and tried in different scenarios and different trades and different moments of the company is what what matters if it's a turnaround if it's a growth if it's trying to stabilize it then you you adjust the the compensation package based on that and I could ask them if there's a specific book um but I could tell you right now what they would say is we're building a university within snowball and it's called snowball University part of that is exactly and what I just mentioned and where we'll have Management training and Leadership training and this is how you set up a compensation this is how you do a budget and this is how you can incentivize your GM and your service manager and your operations manager and this is what that would usually result in based on these incentives and with that also comes a Financial Training comes best practices for um call taking and and sales process and technician process and that's part of what we do and make sure accommodate all this knowledge into one online training program and that over time as it gets flushed out and we finish all the master courses in it shared with outside businesses from snowball wow sounds like a a really powerful Corpus of uh knowledge that you guys are are building yeah uh I want to go back to kind of tying in the the operator hiring an operator in your acquisition for a Searcher one of the things that you said offline to me was how you made a great point that the five hundred thousand dollars of sde is kind of maybe a little low for what a self-funded Searcher might consider the best practice band which might be more like 700 to a million and about whatever you can get before you start competing with private Equity let's call it 750 to 1.25 million but you pointed out uh that 500 000 sde might mean that there's actually an operator there or some sort of management layer whereas a nine hundred thousand dollar sde business might be nine hundred thousand dollars because the owner operator is doing everything and so they're effectively the same business the same the same um like the profitability of these two businesses is effectively the same one has just you know put money out to hire an operator or a manager to any other hasn't uh maybe maybe that four hundred thousand dollar difference is a little wide of a band but the point remains don't you're you're you would say don't run away from a five hundred thousand dollar sde business don't have that be your filter because you should look at those businesses you can quickly find out if the reason that that the number is there is because there's Management in place do you want to elaborate on that absolutely so it comes down to the the quality of that SD and the quality of that earning we've seen quite a few businesses that it's making you know five hundred thousand five hundred and four fifty and and normally you're like oh this is too small but then you see the number of trucks they have you see the management team you ask for the org chart you see there's a sales manager service manager so there is a warehouse manager it's like okay this is this is not a on around business this is a management run business and now it's attractive now in that scenario you don't have to get a GM and they want chances are between that group of three four people you can be um provide your expertise because there's a management team in place and there is real um uh infrastructure and and bonds to the business that that you can build on and we've seen companies doing above 1 million in that net income off of nine individuals total that indicates to us that the owner is doing absolutely everything and and that if that business wasn't within half an hour drive from one of our companies that actually has a leadership and back office support uh we would not be interested in it or if we are we're gonna pretty much backtrack and say hey what would it look like for us to stabilize that business well now it's looking closer to 750 a thousand okay so let's base our acquisition price as if it was a 750 business as opposed to a million dollar business and that's part of the whole ad back but a lot of owners will struggle in seeing that as well and so so yeah I absolutely would not um just walk away from something that is below 500 and I would at the very least it's worth looking one layer deeper I would say even a third layer is similar to buying houses start start comparing the p l and the and the prospectuses and the Sim to the actual physical business take a look at the warehouse like take a look at the shop and how they're describing it on paper it might be a very different walking into it they might have a reception they might actually have a well-run cubicles and service Titan implemented or a service Fusion or any software and they might have a good clear organization in place and no need to discard it until you start connecting p l Sims to physical brick and mortar walkthrough yeah I would think and then vice versa you might see a really great businesses on paper you go visit them and it's basically um you know the running off of a Comics box just as a storage and we've seen that sometimes maybe two conics boxes but it absolutely exists um so that's what I started building that muscle between tying in the the online representation of it the financial representation and the actual physical brick and mortar that's great advice I'm here um this is going to be a a a question whose answer is of course it depends but if you have if I pushed you to generalize for the Searcher listening is is which is more appealing the business that has less sde because there's some management there already some structure some professionalization or the raw business with a lot more sde but you know a lot less mature in terms of professionalization and management because you know the the raw business like that as as many Searchers will will feel and will say like that's the opportunity that's my opportunity to be the one to professionalize it so do you have um you know a go-to answer on on on this this fork in the road between these two options as as the first business I would say the one that is a little bit more structured um the messy one the one that that paternity lies that should be your second business um or the second acquisition and because now you know what you can do with that mess now you can see the opportunity that from the outside and you wouldn't recognize it and some of that opportunity might actually be in lower margins and the company is not doing well and you can identify that this 300 000 ebitda business it's actually 600 to 700 000 because they're not doing X Y and Z that we now are doing on this company you wouldn't know that until you actually are you know at least six months to nine months in that business and your Optics will change as far as what even an opportunity means and what what mess what a mess means and where it where that lies at least the first business gets something that is well run that you can start scaling and growing second third you have at it great I love that you had a very clear answer yeah Amir you um as we said at the outset you are sitting in one of your Acquisitions Anderson is the name of the business yes there's a a big beautiful a over your shoulder the logo of the business that does look like a um spiffy modern logo for for a home Home Services business yeah I don't know if that's your influence or if they if they had that logo before but it looks it looks slick uh why don't you give us quickly the story of that acquisition your first um and then I want to ask about keeping the brand of your Acquisitions I'll I'll ask it again so give us a story please sure absolutely so um Anderson air didn't have a website uh when we acquired it and yeah so so this is this is a company that is doing um that was doing that 10 million plus in in Revenue um with no with no website and marketing everything is just right was relationship based over three generations from the grandfather of the current GM which that's its own success story of um of the GM is the son of the owner that we bought the business and we identified that he has all the leadership traits that we're looking for that is empathy driven uh kind respectful and very much so about and you know keeping the the reputation and and leading his team that way a great temperament um to boot so and that's really important when you're scaling and growing company challenges will happen all the time you need someone that has good good temperament but I'm segwaying on on the on the actual first acquisition so Anderson being the first acquisition for us um we saw the opportunity right away in in the in the people um I think one of our due diligence was when you know we Cayman and saw the operation uh you can see that you know when you walk into their offices they treat you like family and the southern hospitality is um it's not just the buzzwords it's not just what people talk about you you feel it walking into it um and they treat you like that you want to know uh who's family because everybody is treated equally in that sense um that that made an impression on us and something that we absolutely wanted to continue building on so after doing our due diligence and saying that a lot of them um partners that they work with a lot of the builders within the community it's a very close community that we can see there's longevity we can build on Northwest Arkansas in general um is growing at a very rapid clip in terms of population growth and investment a lot of that is driven and by the Walton family the JB hunts and and the Tyson family they're investing quite a quite a bit into this corner that's helping new construction so we can see that um Anderson can can have a good three four five and ten years ahead of it in in building us as part of that community and so uh with with our due diligence on that and and talking to the sons that were at the time um service technicians uh for for um the owners which is was their fathers because it was three brothers and they um we wanted to give them the opportunity to be in management positions and we see the importance of continuing their their legacy through the Generation Um John Anderson is the the son of the Mike Anderson and he was the the primary GM and the primary owner of the business and we um talked to him about being the GM and then he stepped up and he's been the general manager from from day one over the past two and a half years now and he's grown the company from 10 million to 20 million plus um that's where we track three years in two and a half and two and a half years three years it would be three years in December and and that's when they will hit 21 million in Revenue uh yeah um impressive from uh 30 Personnel to to 70 plus and it's that's not easy to manage 70 plus um a Workforce and so we help them through collaborative workshops and Leadership workshops that we do and to build his leadership team yeah it's a great people and culture person that is his right hand uh well not right hand man but right hand woman um she's she's fantastic she's more than anything else she's more like a people operations person and we have a great service manager that recently joined us about six months ago and a pre-construction manager and they joined us about two months ago it took two years to actually build a leadership team in those positions uh prior to that there was the the other two um cousins in the business and one is Jason Anderson and the other one is Derek Anderson and Derek is now the lead estimator the senior estimator that's what he enjoys doing and a lot of the relationships that he has with the builders and it's you know something that he continues to build on and we have Jason Anderson that he's our comfort advisor and last year he did two million in sales this year we're not even six months into the year he's already done one million and the season hasn't even started and so we're we're projecting that he'll do close to two and a half to three million in sales all by himself so I'm by himself you know there's a whole team behind them but as a salesperson so and that's exciting for us this is a team that three years ago was getting paid 19 an hour 20 an hour and now they're doing north of uh of six figures something that you know the they're proud of so that's really uh quite a success story Amir congratulations yeah thank you and the team just started and now we have the the leadership team in place that we can see just continue having that that successive growth year over year and um what unlocked the 10 to 20 million dollars growth in in less than three years and whatever two and a half or three years what was it your big brains coming in or was it giving it wasn't giving uh the these guys kind of a longer leash what what was the magic there I mean that's that's impressive um definitely wasn't my big rings and definitely knowledge she was providing them autonomy and coaching them and really investing in in leadership and and um and training I would say the the pivotal moment was bringing our CEO and Matt Ballard um to the team and him his experience in running um there we call it EOS light workshops and where it's a very soft touch approaching and very collaborative approach in in building the leadership team and it's going to be messy and it's going to be a have a few false starts the leadership team that was in place two years ago it is not the same leadership that is in in place today um so it came with let's invest into the leadership team let's focus on on the GM and and and and his support staff and it's empowered them to make decisions let's Empower them to make mistakes and allow them to grow with it and US coaching them side by side whether it's a weekly one-on-ones quarterly workshops however that is let's walk them through it and our our general way that we engage with operating companies is very consultative it's pretty much falls into three buckets either collaborative which is where we prefer them we see the highest growth and when we have that type of relationship and Helping Hands is when we actually take on some fractional role within the company that's not where we would like to be and it's a bit of a stop Gap until we identify the right person to take that on and the last one is prescriptive so if they specifically just need help with X you know come down work with us as far as the add-on sales or financial intelligence or building a budget it's very specific we come down for like a day or two or help with one specific task negotiating with a vendor whatever that is and where we like to be is is collaborative and it shows The Testament with Anderson what we accomplish when you have a collaborative approach with the operating company and the growth that you can achieve by doing that so Amir you you training is clearly a big part of of the success of Android or the growth of Anderson but it's also something you're baking into the overall snowball Playbook and and family and Mission I heard you say EOS EOS light what can the audience what can Searchers uh people looking to buy one business or maybe you've already bought one business learn from you is eos really a Panacea I mean is it really just like here retraction and and please tell people what EOS is oh EOS is entrepreneurial operating system operating system yeah um I call it EOS and and then it's you know a lot of people call it EOS and but what it is it really gives you a bit of a a framework to work on there because it gives you an opportunity to zoom out a little bit a lot a bit um and not get lost into the into the weeds of the business and then today into the day-to-day um so you know you you purposely um take a day out of out of your out of a quarter um to really discuss at least the way we go about it um is to and this is the light version is to discuss issues um of the business and you have a platform that the reason you have those issues uh for like in a very constructive time for about an hour is so that any event thing that you want to do in every meeting that you will have people people want to rent people want to talk about all the issues so let's just have it in a constructive way and put it all under the board but let's have a bit of a time limit on it so it doesn't take up all of our day and and when you put all those issues on the wall um and people feel at the very least that they that they hurt that they're hurt and then there's a real practical reason that I'll get into in a second why you want to actually write it down um on the board and and it's pretty much leans into the next step and the next step is really identifying um over the past 90 days what are the things that um you liked what are things that were done right what are the things that um you enjoyed that you're part of whatever that is whether it's was a new hire whether it was a new technology whether it was a birthday event or an outing you want to talk about the positives and we also want to talk about the the things that you were long long for I think that you wish that we had that that we didn't and then the last two is lacked um and then the other one we call it the four L's and sometimes it can get a little bit forgetful about it so liked long for learned and lacked and the reason you put all these things on the on a board including the issue this is why you want to see patterns especially on the on the weaknesses side and those those repeating issues those repeating items that you can actually take action on and have traction with are the ones that um you start building your next 90 day plan and this is when you create your your one-page action plan uh where you know depending on the leadership team that is within the room with you which one of those falls under their preview that they'll take an action to address that and it's and you keep it to no more than uh three items so um one two or three Max and really making sure that it's a it's a smart action item with real timely deliverables around it and well defined and and you start working on on issues that you guys have um and you want to make sure that there's real accountability and ownership on that as part of your leadership team so that you're not lost in those in that weeds and the business doesn't always fall on there just putting out fires there's somebody that actually start building the sprinkle system and building the safety precautions so that we don't get into those situations in the future that was great well um EOS is a a vast topic and we could spend a whole episode or probably multiple on on it so we'll I'm going to just going to put up leave it there but um traction is the book where it it was it came from right yeah so um but now I assume they're gonna have it behind you there yeah so if people want to Deep dive first step is to read traction I assume there have been many other books now written about EOS and how to do it and so on and there's people there's Consultants who who are EOS Consultants right I mean there's a whole little cottage industry around EOS now so um I would add that on top of traction to read uh get a grip and it's the book that came after traction that actually shows examples of how traction was implemented and how it was um uh benefited an organization this is our stories um based on on real life examples of the Consultants that they're being shared and gives you a little bit more of a practical uh knowledge or experience that you can read of like how I was applied and how it benefited an organization so then when you go back to the actual traction um and review it as as um as your workbook to achieve the same results and really explains the why behind a lot of things great thank you I was going to circle back and ask you Amir about maintaining brand uh at the businesses that you acquire you've kept the name of Anderson but you actually also kind of created a logo at the very least yeah um and so so talk talk us through that talk us through what you would prescribe to Searchers and this probably is also an opportunity to tie in your digital marketing business acquisition so all of the above please absolutely um we're big Believers in retaining the brand um and the brand Equity that the the company um pretty much built over decades Anderson is a perfect example of that and for 60 plus years and people are familiar with Anderson and Anderson air last thing you'll want to do is is tarnish that name and then you know re-wrap it with the holding company and wanting to build that snowball as a company that has only been two years old nobody knows of snowball it will not land well um especially replacing an organization that has Hebrews within the community and Anderson is not the exception a diamondback is the same over um 30 years plus they built a reputation and same thing with with Clover out of Fairfax Virginia and Ashburn and so you want to build on that and since Anderson didn't have quite an online presence and didn't have um they did have a logo but it was mainly just a font script that was that was written we decided let's let's do a a Refresh on it and well keeping sure that we are true to their um their Roots which is not to be um too creative on the on the marketing side of it and to be respectful to the business itself so when we did the truck craps and we wanted to make sure that it's low key but it stands out and then and probably if you go to their website you could you could see um andersonair.com you can see some of the truck craps where it would be the color that we chose actually worked out well it wasn't um just purposefully um blue but because Walmart is so ubiquitous here that blue also worked well within within the community yeah so and it's not Walmart blue but it's close to it yeah man you want your business to survive yeah pursue it out of existence yeah so so we stayed away from that but it was it was a sheer luck on that one so we absolutely big delivers in retaining the brands well I was just gonna I just wanted to um to emphasize what you had told me in our pre-call that that um not just for the market awareness of the brand but be just at this point about employees really associating with the brand you know I'm an Anderson air guy I'm an Anderson heir uh Gal A guy or gal um so there's um a real connection yeah that employees feel to their brands and and you don't want to disrupt or or jeopardize that right it's their tribe you know it's uh like um in the military you know you have the Marines you have the Navy you have the Army and they're proud of being in the military they're proud being part of snowball but their tribe is the Marines it'll try is the Navy Seals and their pride is being and there's a subset of of the of that tribe because you'll have this service department and you'll have the new construction department and they understand that they're part of the bigger tribe that is Anderson air and Anderson air employees know that they're part of a bigger organization that is in a snowball but being respectful to that levels um that they have that ownership and the badge of honor that they that they wear with it every single day and every time that they pick up the call and say welcome to Anderson air you you can feel it you can feel it in their chest bumping up and and the walk and saying that hey I worked for Anderson air and then and then they can talk about the benefits that they get as part of being that tribe so that's important to us yeah no it's it's a it's a great point and kind of as you articulated it it seems obvious but so often we we think about brand uh in terms of how Brands hit the consumer and how it what the brand means to the consumer and to the public but the brand has almost certainly much stronger meaning to those internal to the organization so um treat it treat it like the sacred thing that it is and the to the point the customer feels that you know how Pride how much of a pride does the customer service rep carries themselves when they talk about Anderson how much of a pride of the service tech talks about when they walk into someone's house they feel the pride when they roll with a brand new a truck wrapped clean and and everything in between in that customer engagement experience the customer feels good that they're working and engaging with this with this brand thank you Amir for on that point um let's Circle back around as a final question to improving the lives of of employees particularly people in the trades so this was something that was a shared Vision between you and your early co-founders you've given us an example about how the sons of the sellers who were technicians are now are now management earning six figures growing the business also I'll just say as an aside um many of my a number of my guests have said that even if they didn't set out to buy a small business for this reason maybe they like the the adventure of being they wanted to be an entrepreneur they like the adventure the the economics were compelling they have found that improving the lives of their employees helping their employees grow has been this incredible uh this incredible benefit value that they've experienced which they underestimated going into it some people go into it with with that explicit goal but many it it surprises them but pleasantly like extremely pleasantly like wow this is so has been so valuable to me personally for this reason for helping my my employees be their you know be their best selves so what can the audience learn from what you are doing there at snowball With That explicit Mission and so yeah I love one of my favorite topics is is impacting people and and no other industry can you do you have that privilege to impact as many people as the trades getting into it that all of us you know we happen to have that in mind from from day one how can we make their lives better not just financially not just through ownership in the company and their own net worth but also the quality of the the life that they live and that also comes from the benefits package that we provide you know we have this same benefits package that you would get at the at a startup or Silicon Valley type business and the same benefits package that I have as an executive of Snowball the same benefits packages the CSR or helper or a rough-in construction person have um whether it's health insurance life insurance Vision Dental 80 or 85 coverage for your whole family not just yourself want to make sure that when you are working at 100 degrees 100 humidity or um installing HVAC system or 3 AM and fixing a sewer line if there's a you get a text from your wife that you know your daughter or your son is sick you're not worried about can I afford the copay can I afford the medical bill that comes with it and you can continue focusing with them with Clarity on the job at hand because it's a very dangerous job it's one of the top 10 dangerous jobs is a construct action and more than you know firefighters and and the police and so why don't we extend the same executive package through and through within the whole organization and so it's a privilege for us at snowball to have that responsibility of 150 plus families and we take that we take that to heart and we continue making sure that any decision we make we understand the impact is significantly more than just us um and continue working in that lens it's um something that it's every single person within the organization has and Amir to really crystallize this for the audience as a takeaway um is there a particular concrete way that they can benefit employees when they when they buy a blue collar business is it I mean I heard I hear you talking a lot about the benefits is it basically like would that be a good place to start look at the the existing benefits package to the extent it even exists and do what you can to improve and and and provide a really generous benefits package or is it not quite so tactical and simple it's simple for us because we have the benefits of scale and it will be beneficial for them to look into it to look at it and see where they can improve and at least make um some improvements from day one but really what you want to start drumming is that you're not important um as a as the Searcher they are they're the revenue generation they're the guys that are working in in the business and you're gonna start implementing and actually be true to your world and follow up uh training setting up development programs giving them a career Mobility anything that you can show that you want to improve their lives because some of them might have already really good benefits packages from their partner and some of them already might have that implemented from the owner and some of them might have a profit share program and some don't see what's missing see how you can add value see what it will take to get there maybe it won't be day one maybe it's it you know a year one and it should be transparent and share that with the team so that they know hey if we achieve this we can make these changes it doesn't have to be with the whole company could be at least with your leadership team and and then work with them as far as like hey if we achieve this we can we're able to provide these benefits let's get there and so you have a bit of a unified mission and vision with it really changing your mindset that this isn't a watershed event for you to all to change from having a a hundred to a hundred thousand dollar um salary career and into all of a sudden having a business that is Cash flowing 700 000 or a million this is um more than anything else a path for you to impact a significant amount of lives outside of yours very well put I'm going to end my questions there Amir is there any topic that you wanted to air that I didn't ask you about let me just share a couple of things as far as where we headed and so now you mentioned marketing a company that we have that we acquired one of the reasons yeah we acquire that companies we notice a lot of companies don't do well um in in SEO especially when it comes to to the trades it has a bad reputation and quite a few I don't even know what's involved in getting that done it's not just writing articles online and significantly more involved than that I us having that digital background that I mentioned earlier and identifying a business through a throne Network that they um they do I would say easily one of the top one percent in SEO out there and they just have really good operational systems around that and we have uh Anderson air for examples traffic is close to 50 000 plus visitors a month and that's unheard of for a HVAC company and then in a in a city that is surrounded by about 300 to 500 000 population um especially when it didn't have a website especially when it didn't have a website wow two years ago so less than two years ago I'll take 50 000 visitors to the acquiring minds website please yeah so and that's what's unique about them and that's what's unique about the content strategy or SEO strategy for us that now that we have this base that there that that online brand um is increasing you had to have an offline brand they have a community brand within within where they've been operating for six years but they had none online we can start leveraging that and go outside Northwest Arkansas we can go you know work in and having a setup shop in in Little Rock a little bit more Central because we get a lot of traffic from there as well a Content marketing as much as you try to be localized you will get a ton of outside traffic from areas that you don't anticipate so you can start leveraging that and so that's been a bit of our secret sauce in terms of the the demand generation and generating leads for our organizations that we acquire is marketing we have pretty much down pat and we openly provide that service to a other companies that are interested and so once we solve for the supply side of the equation by better training for the technicians and recruiting and development and the other side of it is the demand generation and because no matter what doesn't matter how good your culture is doesn't matter and how well you pay if you don't have if the phones are not ringing if you're not generating the leads you're gonna you're not gonna keep the technician's job full and you're going to lose them and and when the phones are ringing is your your winning team and technicians want to work in winning teams everybody wants to work in in winning teams so being able to always conscience on both sides of that that equation is something that is quite unique to us and so just to be absolutely clear you the the digital marketing firm that you acquired uh it still takes outside clients yeah so listeners if they have already purchased their business they could they could reach out to you guys and the name of the firm is the design firm is digitally savvy digitally savvy um I don't know if you can answer this off the cuff but while I have you Amir what is it what is roughly the monthly outlay to digitally Savvy for uh like a comprehensive SEO package for a local Home Services business who wants to get to 50 000 visitors yes I know that there's no guarantees of course um SEO Google it's all a bit of a black box but if somebody likes the sound of that and they want to shoot for it what can they expect to uh to pay about 6 500 a month okay correct and it is premium it but it's because they provide a premium experience okay what is the best way or how do you prefer people reach out to you if they have questions um they could reach out to me on on Twitter or LinkedIn and my handle is my last name at habusha and same thing with LinkedIn if you look for Amir you'll find us and I know one of the things you you mentioned and we're talking about is also our Capital raise on our um uh crowdfunding that we do and that's um if people are interested and they they want to be notified whenever we do have opportunities to take on new investors and it could be 500 to 500 000 that's the beauty of having being heading towards public uh traded company and doing the crowdfunding route to achieve that and you can just sign up to our newsletter and and we'll notify them so to be clear anybody anybody can become an investor now and and participate in this uh this predicted IPO in a couple years exactly and with that um there's um Milestones that we're achieving and crowdfunding is the path we finished the round that we wanted to raise right now um and we're planning on opening it again um and and when it's open and that should be in anywhere from 30 days from now or even sooner um and if you go to our website and you'll see invest in snowball and you'll be able to either invest directly or um or get notified if you subscribe to our newsletter okay um well great I I know so little about uh crowdfunding from the perspective of an actual operating business like yours that I don't even know what to ask as a follow-up but interested people will will go to your website and look into it I would love that uh and we are at times sir so I'm going to let you go this was a comprehensive and really interesting conversation Amir really meet what you're doing with snowball um and I think um I mean as you could feel throughout the course of the interview I you've done you've gotten so much experience across these now five Home Services Acquisitions uh that I know the audience who have yet to do their first acquisition have a lot to learn from you and so I I think we drew got squeezed you for a lot of information it's been really valuable so thank you sir I love the opportunity will so I really appreciate you having me I hope you enjoyed that interview make sure you subscribe to the acquiring minds Channel below we are now publishing twice a week so tons of new interviews and stories to come stories that will help you along your own path to acquiring a business