It's a lot of fun. Warren Buffett in Omaha with Becky Quick, his first interview since stepping down as Berkshire Hathaway CEO. Are you still involved in making investments at all? Yeah. The Oracle of Omaha on Apple, his biggest single investment in six decades at the helm. I think we've made over a hundred billion dollars in that pre-tax. He'd buy even more, just not in this market. Well, I sold them too soon, but I bought it even sooner, so. >> >> How Buffett is thinking about the Iran war, the Federal Reserve, and private credit. It's all parts of the banking system because they all affect each other and the troubles from one can spread over to another. Plus, Warren Buffett on Jeffrey Epstein. He had a way of conning everybody. His views of Epstein's cons and his network. I'm so happy the guy didn't He didn't stop in all of or I mean or or or that I I didn't live in New York. If I lived in New York, I'd In some party, I would have been at some damn thing. >> >> Buffett has given about 43 billion dollars to the Gates Foundation over the years and has maintained a decades-long friendship with Bill Gates. Buffett says he hasn't spoken to Gates lately. But I think until it gets cleared up, I don't I just don't think it makes sense to do a lot of talking. For one thing, I I my memory's no good anymore and and I don't want to be under oath. I'm CNBC producer Zach Vilici. Squawk Pod reports Warren Buffett begins right now. >> >> We do have a very special guest today, Warren Buffett, the chairman of Berkshire Hathaway, former CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. And this is the first time that we are sitting down with him since he stepped down from that CEO CEO role. Warren, welcome. It is wonderful to see you this morning. >> to be on. You are on for an interesting reason, for 22 years, you had been holding an annual luncheon, an auction for a luncheon luncheon to benefit the Glide Foundation in San Francisco. You retired from that from doing that back in 2022 after you'd raised more than 50 million dollars. I think the last auction that you raised that you did raise 19 million 100 dollars for the Glide Foundation and you kind of hung it up and said that was going to be the end. You are back with a new announcement today that there is a new auction that is coming with a twist. This time it's Warren Buffett, Stephen Curry and Ayesha Curry and they're going to be having a new luncheon to benefit not only the Glide Foundation but the Curry's Foundation as well, which is Eat Learn Play. And this auction is going to be held May 7th. It starts at 7:30 p.m. Pacific time. It closes on May 14th at 7:30 p.m. exactly and all of the benefits of that is going to go to benefit these two foundations, Glide and the Eat Learn Play Foundation. How did this come about? Why did you un-retire from this? Well, let me tell you first how I got into it because uh my my first wife, Susie, was living in San Francisco and and she said to me, "This guy is real." And and and Uh this guy being Cecil? Cecil Well, yeah, Cecil Williams Yeah. who came to that church in 1963 and it was a dying church in a changing part of the neighborhood in San Francisco. And uh they weren't glad to see him, uh the hundred or so parishioners that were left, but he turned it into something that uh became uh it it it it it gave hope and life to people that the world had given up on. And uh and I went on Sunday still expecting something less than that. And uh uh I watched Cecil and uh I could see what he was doing and he he was for real. And so uh Susie at some point said, uh "Why don't you do something to raise some money for him, you know?" And and so I think she actually thought of the idea of the luncheon and then we did the lunch. The first three lunches brought 25,000 dollars each because they were localized. And then we got the idea of going on eBay and uh then we started getting bids from around the world and uh uh it just generally kept moving up, although it wasn't every single year, but it just it just put us on the map and uh uh and it was the final amount, 19 million, uh was raised. Now, that was kind of raised because it was the last one, I think, uh I was doing and a fellow bought it that had bought an earlier lunch, but but uh I didn't make any calls to him or do anything. He just uh turned out to be it it inspires people uh and and Smith & Wollensky, as you know, couple of New York sometime with the >> often where you had the lunch with with the winners of this. And some of them wanted to be uh anonymous and uh a couple came to Omaha uh along the line uh because they had some special thing they wanted to talk about, but uh I think everybody felt they they were glad they did it and I was glad to do it and So, why'd you stop? Well, I ran out of gas. >> >> I I you know, I I got to be what, 93 at that time or something like that and and it just same reason I gave up teaching. I teach I was I taught every year from when I was 21 till 88 or 89 and there just came a period when your body said different things to you and you should turn it over to somebody just like I did at Berkshire. I mean, it it it different times on different things, but I and so we thought we had a continuation of it all set up and then for one reason or another, it fizzled and and so the last two years they Well, I think the first year some board member made up some member but basically they did the auction disappeared. So, they haven't had the funds coming in. No. And and uh and Cecil Williams was about my age that did all this. And uh it got so I couldn't understand him on the phone or anything like that, but all he wanted was this to continue and so uh uh I don't know where the idea came from exactly uh but I said I would do one more just to get it started again and and that Seth Curry join us, I mean, uh in the Bay Area, I mean, it it's just a natural and and uh Right, the Eat Learn Play Foundation that Stephen and Ayesha Curry have set up it it is in the Bay Area as well. So, they're locally focused on all of these things. For people who don't know, the Glide Foundation was also it was highlighted in the movie The Pursuit of Happyness with Will Smith. So, people may have a little bit of an idea what that's about. Um why Steph Curry? How how how did that go about? >> Well, I mean, uh who can say it better? I mean, he's worked with the kids in Oakland. I mean, these are kids between 5 and 15 or something like that and he plays basketball with them and I mean, he's a terrific guy. I don't you know, I haven't met him personally. We >> But you did talk to Stephen and Ayesha. >> a long talk on the phone and and uh and it's his baby and he can carry it forth. And uh uh incidentally, whatever is bid this year, I will make an equal I don't think Seth doesn't know this, but but but uh I will make an equal contribution to both Glide and to uh the Curry's Foundation and you know, just go on to new heights, I mean, and and and uh Seth is the hero of um millions and millions of people, you know, that uh uh so, I think I really think it'll it'll work. I think it'll continue to be what Cecil hoped it to be and and uh uh it would have killed me to have it just die off and and and and it and then as much what Cecil poured into it himself, he believed everybody was worthwhile and the world had given up on these people and these he may have started giving a little bit of food to them, but before he got through, he was doing all these things at at at the Glide and uh uh he never gave up on anybody. And I know you said that Astrid really liked him, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, it it Astrid is my second wife and and and and uh you couldn't help but like him. I mean, when you watched him up there with people that the world had given up on and and he says to them, "I'll feed you. I'll have a bed for you. I'll have a vocation for you. You know, we're not going to give up on you." And uh and never did. Warren, this is the first time that we're sitting down with you since you stepped down from the position of CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. >> Yeah. Um it was a long, long run, very successful run. How is your life different today? Well, it's not much different in except for the I mean, I go in every day. To the office. Yeah, I go in every day to the office. I I don't accomplish hardly anything. I mean, in terms of I it it it just takes me way longer to do things and and uh and Greg is so good. I was kind of embarrassing how good he is because he he has covered, you know, we've got uh about 200 uh businesses within Berkshire, you know, that came about. And I can't name the managers' names or their wives' names or I haven't seen them, you know, in a long time. I I It's easier just to write the letter once a year and >> >> and and got to do my own thing. Uh Greg covers more ground than a day than I would in a week even when I was at my peak, let alone my present condition. So, uh it's it's it's a move uh that in many ways I could have done it earlier and Greg would have been better than I was. But, you know, it I can still contribute just a tiny bit. But, Well, what are you still involved in making investments at all? Yeah. Yeah, it it uh and uh but I won't make any that Greg thinks are wrong. And and uh he'll run he's starting to get a few calls and he'll call me about them and and like me, he doesn't like them, you know. >> >> But but uh uh >> Calls from who? He'll give me posted. Yeah, well, yeah. It's investment bankers calling him. And and they'll sell them, you know, they'll try and sell anything, but but uh I cut them off in about 10 or 15 seconds and he's he's he's he spends more time with them, but I don't know where he gets his time because he plays hockey with his I mean, it isn't like he's as fanatic as I was, you know, in terms of running the place. But, with no more apparent effort, he just covers so many bases. Well, in terms of what you're doing with investing, I mean, it's a huge amount of money. How much cash does Berkshire have on hand at this point? I don't know the exact number, but it's not much different than before. So, you know, it's it's it's probably north of 1 350 billion in cash and Treasury bills. Yeah. So, >> We bought 17 billion this week. 17 billion of T-bills? Of T-bills. Berkshire's the largest owner of T-bills? I think we're probably the largest bidder and ironically, I got involved in Salomon because they bid for too many bills and I don't think they'd get mad at us now if >> >> if we bid for too many, but but but uh uh you're not supposed to go over 35% or something in the auction and of course you bid through the primary dealers, but uh I don't even know the mechanics that well, but but uh but one one fellow in our office uh handles all the mechanics of the stocks and bonds we buy. Mark Munger. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And any place I'll say they have 25 or 30 people that uh and uh >> >> he loves what he does and I love what he does >> >> and he's down the hall about 20 ft about every hour or hour and a half he brings me in what we've done and uh So, what Berkshire has done just in terms of the markets that day? Yeah, I call them I I call them before the market opens. Yeah. Cuz I see what's been going on, you know, pre-market and uh probably change the limits only. I I don't get lots of different stocks or anything like that. But uh every now and then I'll I'll introduce something and and I will change limit prices daily. But, you don't do that you don't check with Greg before you're doing that. You check with Greg on a regular >> Well, Greg is Greg gets the sheet every day. >> does, too. Uh he doesn't get it quite as fast as I get it. I mean, I'm but he get it probably gets it over at the end of the day or something of the sort. And if Greg differed with me on anything, we wouldn't be doing it. But, you're still making new purchases? Pardon me? You're still making new purchases? Uh got one tiny purchase, but we aren't finding things that that uh we weren't finding them before. Well, let's talk about that. Did the market has come down substantially? You've Not substantially. Well, you're you've got both the Dow and the Nasdaq in correction territory. It's the worst performance on a quarterly basis for stocks in about 4 years. Do things look cheaper to you? No. Uh three times since I've took taken over Berkshire, it's gone down more than 50%. I mean, if you look at the markets of Oh, the worst probably was the 2007-8 period, although there was that one Monday when you had 21% in a day. I mean, this is nothing. I mean, it it uh uh Well, this is nothing to make you get excited and think there's huge valuation drops. >> they're they're 5 or 6% cheaper. Yeah. That doesn't we we aren't in it to make 5 or 6%. I mean, it uh uh but uh we aren't a big seller either. In in the end, we own businesses. Sometimes they're wholly owned, sometimes they're partly owned. That's what I like to own. And 2/3 of our money or more is in our businesses and we bought Occidental Chemical on January 3rd. That was 9 9.7 billion. And and as far as I'm concerned, that's got some advantages, some disadvantages versus owning a stock, but it's got the same principles attached to it. It is a business. And it's a business we expect to own you know, indefinitely. I mean, Are you I mean, it doesn't sound like you're necessarily finding businesses that you want to own flat out either, not just purchasing portions of them if you've got $350 billion plus sitting around. Yeah, and >> >> we get calls all the time and they're selling calls, but the the like I said, it takes me 5 seconds to say no. It takes Greg's a little more polite than I am, but uh >> >> I it I mean, it it it I I just as soon get the calls just to see what people are doing. But, they aren't offering anything that's uh at an attractive price and and what they want is a trade. Yeah. Are you waiting for the next big drop in the market to deploy that cash? And And if so, do you see that coming? >> Yeah, if there is a big decline, we will deploy. I mean, but we won't we will deploy it because stocks are attractive or businesses are attractive to us. And we are not planning to sell them next week or next month. So, we want to be right on them. Right. And we've had our American Express stock uh 30 30 years without having I know Coca-Cola close to 40 years, not 35 years. And uh on the other hand, there's things I change my mind on uh fairly quickly, but but the goal is to own the own businesses. Mhm. And when we buy Occidental Chemical, we expect to own that 50 years from now, you know, the world can change in some way, but that is we do not we do not buy that with the thought of resale. You you've sold a lot of a stock that's done very well for you, Apple. Um Yeah, well, I sold it too soon. Yeah. Made money. >> But, I bought it even sooner, so >> >> it worked out. Yeah, I I think we've made over $100 billion in that pre-tax. Yeah. But, you were you're regretting it? You say you sold it too soon. >> No, no, no. I I I don't have any ability to predict what stocks will do next week or next month. And uh I I will buy them if they're cheap. I'll buy a whole lot of them if they're cheap and I think I really understand the business. And uh Apple is still our largest single investment. And you like it that way? Yeah, well, if I didn't like it, I could sell it. I >> >> Yeah, no, I can uh and I uh I think it's a remark it's better than any business we own outright. Now, we own a railroad that's worth more money than our Apple position, for example. They're both looked at the same way. I mean, they're both they're both businesses. I expect the I think it's more predictable in a certain sense that the railroad will be around 50 or 100 years from now, but it doesn't earn the rate remotely on capital that Apple does. I mean, Apple is a a business that that you know, you've got one probably and your kids have got them. I mean, you know, it's a it's >> Not one. We've got like 20 of them. Yeah. Yeah. >> the devices. And actually, the Bell Telephone Company was that way at one point, but they were regulated. Well, do you worry about regulation coming for some of these big tech companies, in particular Apple? I think I think the consumer is in love with them too much. They don't I don't think Washington will do anything that that really destroys something that every one of their voters >> >> likes. And they're using themselves. I mean, it it it's it's a remarkable product that way. Yeah. Just think of something that is as useful as as the uh Apple is. I mean, it's Tim Cook has done better with the hand Steve Jobs. He couldn't have done what Steve Jobs did. But the Steve Jobs handed him a hand that uh Steve would not have done as well. Steve picked him. I mean, when you get right down to it, and uh Tim was a fantastic manager. And he's a good guy. Mhm. And somehow he gets along with everybody in the world. >> >> You know, uh that's that's a technique I wouldn't have, for example. And certainly my partner, Charlie Munger, wouldn't have had it. No. But uh uh It's uh I'm I'm very happy to have it be our largest holding. I was not happy to have it be as large as almost everything else combined. Okay. That makes sense. Um Although, what a price I was. >> >> Right. And they could >> up. It's not impossible that Apple would get to a price where we would buy a lot of it, but not in this market. I mean, it's just isn't going to happen in this market. >> How much would stocks have to come down for you to think that this is really attractive? If it's >> on the stock. Yeah. Some stocks Now, generally speaking, they move together to quite a degree, but but uh uh I don't think I know what the market's going to do. I do think I've got a reasonable idea of what a business is worth. I have no idea what the stock market's going to do, and I don't think anybody else does, either. You don't necessarily follow tech companies, and Apple people look at it as a tech company, but you always looked at it as a consumer company. >> Yeah. Company. So, what do you do about all of these tech stocks and the AI trends that are there? Do you try and follow any of that? Do you get involved in any of those industries? >> because I'm A, I wouldn't be any good at it, and besides, I'm so late to the game. Uh I am not learning new things well. I still don't know what to do with the phone, but I just recognize the fact that that uh you know, you're going to have one and your kids are going to want one, and and and it is a terribly useful I mean, it's incredibly useful. Uh and you get something that's useful and offered worldwide, and and where to some extent you're a little worried about maybe moving your photos from one system to another. And all I had to do was go out to the Nebraska Furniture Mart and talk to the customers as what and that's what I did 60 years ago with American Express when they looked like they were you know, done for on the on the salad oil scandal, and I went down to the Omaha National Bank, and I said, "Are you getting a premium for American Express tickets?" They they could sell their their traveler's check for more than Citigroup, Bank of America, you know, Barclays, everybody had that. And they were getting a premium at the same time that everybody else was worried about them getting in getting out of business. And the same thing when they actually started their card, they were going up against Diners Club and Carte Blanche, who had come first. And they came they came on later, and instead of coming in at a cut price, they came in at a price above the competition. Wait. That That says a lot about about how how consumers felt about American Express. Yeah. Warren, let me ask you about the economy, because the Fed is in a bit of a quandary right now, just trying to figure out which one of its mandates it's more worried about. Is it worried about inflation potentially rising more? Is it worried about the jobs market and and, you know, potential decline in economic output? What What of those two issues would worry you most if you were at the Fed right now? Well, if I were at the Fed, the thing I'd worry about always is the you know, you're the reserve currency of the world. I mean, so you've got very smart people, very sophisticated people. The American dollar looks, you know, like nothing could happen to it. I I I don't see how anything could happen to it. But if it does happen to it, I I would I would I wouldn't want the responsibility of running the Fed. But what would >> the the world will be dependent on it doing it. And last time, in 2007 and 8, you had Congress that essentially felt they knew more about it than than, you know, Secretary of Treasury and and So, they really gummed things up when they when they turned on TARP the first time. And I mean, it it was I think now uh people better understand what the the Fed can print money. The Fed can print money, and it and we have a president, President Trump, who would like to see the Fed cut rates. Would you cut rates if you were there right now? I don't know what what I do there. I mean, I I I think that Jay Powell and when when the epidemic broke out, I think he acted in March of whatever, 2020. Mhm. And I think if he'd waited two or three weeks, it would have been a disaster. Once the dominoes start toppling, they just start toppling. And and and and that line is shorter than anybody thinks, and it topples faster, and and uh and I think he did exactly the right thing, and he he did it even stronger than than Volcker did, you know. I mean, he he uh He and Volcker are my heroes at the Fed. Did they keep rates low for for too long? I mean, I think that's as they didn't worry about inflation, as they said it was going to be transitory, because I I I I think even Powell himself if it said that he might wish he'd turned it sooner. Well, I I wish they had a zero inflation target, but I mean, once you start saying you're going to tolerate 2%, that compounds pretty dramatically over time, and you're you're saying to people if you're getting less than 2% on your money, you're going backwards. And actually, if you pay tax, you may pay tax on the 2%, you know, I mean, it it I I don't like I don't like uh that particular goal, but So, inflation is maybe what you'd be more concerned about. I mean, that that's what Greenspan Alan Greenspan always said. Yeah, I would be I would care about inflation. I would compare What I really would care about is is the stability of the banks. Yeah. I mean, the banking system is in some senses very strong, in other senses very fragile. I mean, JP Morgan in the last couple annual reports reported doing 10 trillion of business per day. Now, that's an unsecured position. Now, they know what they're doing, believe me. I mean, there's nobody smarter than Jamie. And and but uh I don't want I I didn't want during the the uh 2008 period, I didn't want anything unsecured, you know, out there for a day. I mean, who knew? Nobody was that good, you know. I mean, it it uh The world is very interconnected, and and uh and everybody panics. >> >> It It uh you know, they may say they don't, but you can call the biggest investment banking firms, and they don't and they say, well, they don't answer the phone even if if if things get bad enough. And if they do answer the phone, they, you know, they say 10 10 bid, 20 offered subject. Yeah, I mean, Joe will talk about that day that you mentioned in where where the Dow was down 21%. I I he was at that point he he said it himself, He was hiding under his desk for the calls that were coming in. Yeah. And and Cuz when liquidity disappears, it disappears. >> And that was someday. And it just kept coming. And most of the specialist firms which then counted for more in terms of the the uh stability of the markets They were They were broke. I mean I As I remember, they they went around to their banks and said, "Just don't call the loans." You know, but But they They people They were supposed to keep making markets, but people just kept hitting the bid and and you can widen the spread out. You got circuit breakers now, all kinds of things. But when people are scared, they're scared. And people if you yell fire in a crowded theater everybody around the still It still pays to be people to the door. >> >> I get in trouble, you know, so I I will I'll stand back there and say everybody to stay calm, you know, but that's cuz I can't run fast. On the other hand when people come back into the theater they come in one at a time. They know they don't have to get in the door, but when people panic, they panic. But But is it the banking system we should be concerned about right now or is it the shadow banking system, the private credit at this point? >> It's all parts of the banking system because they all affect each other and and the troubles from one can spread over to another and and Well, you saw what happened. I mean in in 2008, the But But at risk of potentially I I don't want people to say that you are commenting on what's happening in the private credit situation right now. What do you think of the private credit situation right now? Are there enough concerning issues there that you worry that it could cause a contagion or something like >> I don't think I know. Okay. I don't I I do not think I know what But I therefore I want to be prepared for anything. And therefore we will always have We'll always have cash around. And we'll have Treasury bills. We won't have money market funds. We didn't have them in 2008. We won't have commercial paper. In 2008, there's just one thing that's legal tender. And Now, if you own Treasury bills and we have known We don't own Treasury bonds way out. I mean But every Monday the Treasury has to sell bills. And as long as they got to sell you know, X billions worth of bills, I mean they kind of They can print the money to do it. Mhm. And they'll do it. But just to put a fine point on it, you don't think you know what's happening out there. You've had this huge cash hoard north of $350 billion. It's just there waiting for anytime. It's not that you necessarily think that there's something on the horizon. It's just the longer time goes. >> No, I always want to have Yeah. Yeah, sure. And And I never want to buy anything just because people think the market is going up. >> >> I mean, the idea that people think they know what the market is going to do is just crazy. I mean that that The idea that that they would shout out to the world you know that something they really knew >> >> That's like saying if they had gold found gold in their backyard, they'd they'd come on uh television and say, "Here's where the gold is in my backyard." You know, I mean >> >> they they They're yeah. They're They're selling something. They want other people to follow, you mean? Well they know that there's a certain I mean, there's people in the United States and other parts of the world, but you've seen how much they like to gamble. Mhm. And basically you have this incredible cathedral called the American economic system. Nobody's seen anything like it. I mean, it's the cathedral of all cathedrals, but attached to it is a casino and people can walk back and forth between the two. And believe me uh people like to gamble. I mean, they gamble with the odds against them. In the market, they can actually gamble if they Well, they really aren't gambling if they do it, but I mean if they just buy a stock and sit for 50 years, >> >> they if they got a a group of them, they're going to do fine. I mean, the American capitalism system works. And betting against the house does not work. >> >> It's It's just It's so simple, but uh people do like to gamble. When you say gambling, are you talking about On my honeymoon in 1952 we went through Los Suzy and I We just got my Aunt Alice's car and we drove and and we went through Las Vegas at the time. And I watched all these people who were dressed well and they'd they'd flown on jets. They'd flown you know, for many hours, spent much money and everything else to go and pull handles, you know, or do something that was mathematically dumb. And I thought this is a line of opportunity. Yeah. >> >> I I I told her we were going to get rich. I mean, how can you have people who have perfectly decent IQs rushing to do dumb things, which they do. And industries build on it. Now it's become legalized and the the the more they open it up, the more people like to do it. They like to do it in the stock market. And actually in the stock market, at least they got they got a favorable expectancy if they just sit tight. Right. But they don't sit tight, of course. They They're gamblers. So you're not a fan of prediction markets, of legalized sports gambling, even of day trading. Is that basically what you're saying? >> Well, I I don't think I don't think you can stop it. Once you open it up and and once the states found out that they could pay out 60 cents on the dollar or something like that. Whatever they may have different systems for different states. There was one state it was legal when I was a kid. And And we've been around for hundreds of years, but then once people saw that was working, >> >> they other places took it up. And of course rich people love it because they don't have to pay. I mean, you know, to the extent that they that the states raise money from people who that where the dollar really means something to them actually relieves the taxes on me or other rich people. I mean, it's not direct. I mean, but it's It's the net effect. So I I I don't like things that make a sucker out of people. Yeah. I I don't like them. I particularly don't like them when the government sponsors them. I don't think the government should play it's I don't think a function of the government is to play its people for suckers. Yeah. My My dad has always said um the lottery is a tax on the stupid. Gambling, same thing. >> It's It's a tax It's a tax on stupidity. Yeah. But it's it's it's But I'm not mad at the people that are stupid. I'm mad at the >> >> No, I really am not. I mean, you can't help it if you To some extent, if you're human beings, I mean, you're you're you're geared that way when somehow you know, it's developed within the humans. I don't like it when the government that they elect decides they're going to profit off that sort of activity. And I particularly I just I I I think it's kind of cynical. I I don't think I don't think you should have a cynical government. I mean, it's >> >> What Warren, let me let me shift gears and ask a little bit about what you think that is happening that's happening about what's happening in the Middle East right now. What's happening what? What's happening in the Middle East? Um there's a lot of ways we could go with this, but why don't we start with just what it means for crude oil and energy in particular. Berkshire owns a utility company. What do these higher prices mean? Well it It means the two oil positions we have uh Chevron and and and Occidental go up a lot, but but that doesn't mean I can go around predicting what will happen next. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow over there. Yeah. You for a long time were involved with the nuclear initiative. I think still are funding that. And I know your very first priority in philanthropy was the nuclear problem. >> I think it's the problem. I think I think it should Well, I'll put it this way. When I was When I went to school primary school they told me the sun was going to burn out in 4 and 1/2 billion years. I took that pretty philosophically. I mean, >> >> I got to handle that. And now you've got nine countries including, you know the guy in North Korea. I mean And >> >> there will be something happen. And we worried enormously about it when there were two. And we had perfectly We had really pretty sane leaders. And And Kennedy and Khrushchev, you know, I mean You were not dealing with unstable people or anything like that. And uh uh You know, the ships turned around, but they're but people were hiding under their desk with two. I mean, just think how how feel with North Korea having it and Iran wanting to get it. I mean, it it is and I don't have an answer for that. I mean, we did the right thing in 1938 even or 1939. You can go look at it's all over the internet. The most important letter ever written. And and uh uh Leo Szilard could not get the message to you the famous nuclear physicist. It's a terrific one, very funny, too. And he he couldn't get the message to Roosevelt, but he knew if Einstein signed the letter that it would get there. And he finally got Einstein to sign the letter. And that letter was a month before the Germans started rolling into Poland. And and I don't think Roosevelt understood U-235 any better than I do. I mean, >> >> you know, but he knew if Einstein signed it he better do something. And the funny thing is, of course, he was doing it because he's worried about the Germans getting it and and and uh it was actually used on the Japanese, but it it it we I don't we haven't learned to live with it. >> >> Now, we've been we've gone 80 years since then. We've had a lot of close calls. I mean, we've had training tapes. One in there that that almost got the president to to do something. They've had them. I mean, uh there is no way that the planet has an expectancy of 500 years now when it was 4 and 1/2 billion when I was a kid. And we had to do it. Uh I'm not faulting anybody. My dad was in Congress, he would have voted for it. I mean, everybody rejoiced on DJ Day. You know, I mean, it it it but there was no way we could undo it. But I I think the question becomes today um Nikki Haley was just on Squawk Box right before you, and she was saying she thinks the president should go in and find the enriched uranium in Iran right now. And that's a controversial position. It >> It's a controver- but I I I would be I I would be for one way or another. If I were the president of the United States, I would I'll be president of the United States if I don't want to do it. So, I I uh I one time asked one president. I said, uh you know, if if the Soviets had launched so they already were in the air. And our policy was mutually assured destruction. Would you have told Strategic Air Command unleash ours? Knowing that it wasn't going to I mean, it was going to just kill millions and millions and millions more people and add to a a super polluted atmosphere that who knows what was going to happen. I mean, it uh uh >> >> and uh now we have >> What was the answer? The answer Well, I The an- the the this president said he said, "I thought about that every day." Cuz some major shows up at midnight Yeah. and says "We have incontrovertible This is not This is not geese above the North Pole. This is not a training tape that got put in by mistake. We know they're in the air. And you've got 10 minutes to make a decision, Mr. President. What do I tell SAC SAC to do? Do we unleash ours?" And uh I used to be on the SAC Advisory Board. Believe it or not. I mean, the uh but that was for political purposes as I put people on that naturally cuz they're always looking for more money, and they just figured if and I don't blame them >> But what did the president say? What was his answer? The president said, "I thought about it every day." During the time I was in office, he was an ex-president. But did not give an answer on what he actually would do. >> said, "I think the answer is yes. I would tell them to do it." That is the policy of the United States of America. Yeah. So, if you were the president today or if you were advising the president today, what would you say about going after the enriched uranium in Iran? I would say that one way or another in the next 100 years maybe it's 200 years, who knows. But one way or another something will happen to cause it to be used and and and we can't take what's out there now. And if you thought it was dangerous with the Soviets and us with Khrushchev, who was perfectly rational guy probably Kennedy just wait till we wait till we're dealing with you know, the guy in North Korea who criticizes haircut or something. I mean, or or I would say the most dangerous thing is actually somebody that's got their hand on the switch who is dying themselves or is facing enormous embarrassment. He figures if I go, everybody goes. >> Yeah, if you're cornered. Yeah. Now, So, that still rises to the level of one of the most important and >> It is. Yeah. It's just that I don't know the answer for it, but I do know that the it'll be more difficult if Iran has the bomb than if they don't. Yeah. Warren, I want to shift topics again. Um you have given away almost 60 billion dollars um since 2006 when you first started giving money away. The bulk of that has gone to the Bill Gates Foundation. What have you thought about all the emails and the Epstein files related to Bill Gates? Well, I won't say what I thought about them particularly related to Bill Gates, but I'll say it's astounded me how human people are. >> >> It it uh Here you had a guy that was a convicted guy. A sensational con man. And the percentage of people that he knocked off, I mean, whether it was he found their weakness. It might have been sex, it might be power, it might be Whatever it might be. And I don't see how anybody could have pulled that off. Uh and then and of course, all these figures think that it's going when he dies that how you know, they they They basically lied about it before, but I mean, you know, and it uh it >> Lied about their associations with Epstein, you mean? Well, I mean, uh you know, they they rationalized it one way or another. Uh but and now it's all getting opened up, and of course uh I'm just I'm so happy the guy didn't that uh he didn't stop in all of Harbor. I mean, or or that I I didn't live in New York. If I lived in New York, I in some party I would have been at some damn thing. And and what people always are asking to take a picture, and I usually do. I'm so used to doing it with students, I always do these gag pictures where I'm picking some guy's pocket or proposing to some woman or some damn thing. >> >> And and you know, I thank heavens I I I never I I I never came near the guy. And I had read the article in in Vanity Fair in in 2003 that So, I >> The the one that laid that laid out who what a mysterious and strange figure he was. >> It it was as far as somebody's worried about libel suits goes. >> What made him sound like a fraud for sure? Yeah, I've read that article. What the guy did here suggests And the the interesting thing is uh you know, he got he got to start up at Bear Stearns. And and uh and they knew him. They They knew he lied to them on all kinds of things. And uh And Ace Greenberg was a good friend of mine. Uh uh I don't know if Jimmy Cayne may have been actually running the firm by then, I'm not sure. But Ace Greenberg always was looking for He had a guy that uh the son of a friend of mine that he hired just to be his ferret. His And his job was to look for anything that was old or large that traders might have stuck in their desk or I mean, he was worried about about people But somehow uh Ace was daughter, I guess, was dated by dating Epstein or something. And then that guy must have been the con man of all time. It it's one thing to be a con man, it's another thing to be trafficking minors. Absolutely. >> prostitution >> and being prosecuted. And and even though he he managed to jiggle his way through that thing with, you know, the the whoever the attorney general was then the that One way or another, he he he did not really spend much time in his cell in in uh But he had a way of conning everybody. I mean, he probably Who knows what he offered the guys, you know, to do that. He could con anybody. Have you been concerned? He found their weakness. Have you First of all, have you learned things from the Epstein files? >> Sure. I I can't read them myself cuz my I sight is so bad, but I I've got a friend that reads them heavily for me and it is astounding to me that anybody could be that successful as a con person. But the you know >> >> P.T. Barnum said it many years ago, too. >> >> You know, one born every minute and and uh you know, men are going to like sex and uh some some of them are going to like not paying taxes and whatever it was he he figured out what their weakness was and and then he was had this ability to prey on them. But that doesn't excuse the people but on the other hand, I mean Right. What what what are the consequences for what >> The consequences are very likely to be, in my view same thing that happened back in 1969 when uh the Johnson administration left and the Ford Foundation hired a whole bunch of people that that were let go from government and it it it'll take it takes something where Congress feels that that they're they're better they're better off going after the foundations than not. And uh foundations have got plenty of I mean, money and foundations have plenty of more power in Washington. I mean, it's kind of kind of irritating. We can talk about that later, maybe, but but uh in '69, I think Wilbur Mills was uh was head of the Ways and Means Committee or I I don't remember exactly uh how it came about, but that was the last That was a big revision of of what foundations could do. I think this is the same going to have the same effect. >> Is there anything that you've read or been read from the Epstein files that concerns you about the money that you donate to the Gates Foundation, money you've given in the past or money that you made? >> There was a lot I didn't know. Like what? >> What was very clear Well, I didn't know a lot of things. I mean, there were three trustees of the foundation and I was one of the three. Now, we only met once a year. I did not ask probing questions. I mean, you know, if I had if I thought I had to ask probing questions, I would wouldn't have put the money in in the first place. But but uh uh And incidentally, the the guy that's CEO of the foundation wasn't necessarily present during all these things, but he's not the real CEO. I mean, in in the end, Bill ran the foundation and and and it was and but I learned uh I learned I guess I guess when the divorce action happened cuz I resigned a month later, less than a month later, I think. What what did you learn then that >> I learned that I didn't know what was going on. And and uh which didn't mean something terrible was going on necessarily, but I I certainly didn't know what was going on. We didn't. And I didn't ask the questions, either, though. I mean, in terms of being on the foundation board or the it It was I I made a decision out of 2006. And uh And I I and I didn't think about getting into somebody's marital problems or anything like that was particularly appropriate at the foundation meetings, but they went through and they talked about all these little things that didn't mean anything and and then they've hired a few people that that are really bad news, you know, and I never met any of those people and you know, and and that that You're talking about Boris Nikolic. >> Yeah, I don't even know what >> pretty prominently in the I've never heard of him. And and I, you know I was around the that guy so far in the proceedings, I mean He looked like a terrible guy to employ. Now, I've employed terrible people but we've gotten rid of them. Uh Boris Nikolic eventually was gotten rid of at the foundation, as well. Have you talked to Bill Gates about any of this? I haven't, no. I haven't talked to him at all but since the whole uh I guess it was unveiled. I don't want to be in a position where I know things. It's a lot of uh I could get called as a witness. Are you going to continue to give money to the Gates Foundation? You have every June since 2006. Well, yeah. Actually, I agreed to do it every year. But I've I've done it around June 30th most of the time and >> >> and I'll wait and see what unfolds. The stock isn't going anyplace. It isn't like I'm giving it all away to something else or won't have it. But but I'll I'll wait and see what I'm learning I'm learning things I didn't know about something uh for all these years and uh and I didn't know how the marital thing would play out. I mean, I I just didn't know about it and uh uh You could guess sometimes that people aren't getting along, you know, at a given time, but but that's true in every marriage, right? >> >> And there there are times when they get irritated with their spouse or something like that and uh so uh uh in any event I'll just wait and see. And there's three of that half million or whatever it is pages. I mean, it is astounding >> In the Epstein files, you The Epstein files and and there's a lot of redacted stuff and obviously anybody that was involved in Epstein I mean, they they're miserable probably from the moment they learned that things are going to get released. And then and then and they can't bury it now. I mean, it's it's it's gone too far. Are there I guess you're you're caught in a position where if you The money's all going to get given away. That's for sure. >> don't give the money to the Gates Foundation, are you in violation of the pledge that you made or if you do give the money, are you condoning the behavior that has taken place? That you may or may not that you may not have we we haven't learned everything potentially yet about. That's what I want to learn. Yeah. I don't have to make that decision today and I and I haven't made it today. But I do keep reading things. I mean, I I have somebody read them for me, actually. That's uh And I uh I was always astounded somewhat by the Epstein thing when it was taking place, but but what this reveals about humans and their behavior, whether it's money or whether it's sex or whatever it is. I mean, this guy found people's weaknesses, but they didn't do things. Yeah. I don't think if if you ask me my personal opinion, I don't think Bill had anything to do with uh girls or the island or anything like that. But I am learning things about all kinds of stuff when I read this and and it is ruining one person after another. I mean I >> >> and uh It's just astounding to me how bad I People always do things. I mean, there's consensual sex and all kinds of things, but but uh th- this guy how many hours are there in the day? I mean three and a half billion or whatever this communications and all the thinking that goes into and and and he found people's weaknesses and and boy, did he know how to use it. And he used he obviously used this guy Boris somebody and he and he used the woman Goldman Sachs. I mean, it's just every place you looked. Yeah. Yeah. He I've never seen any and I'm sure that once you get rid of the redacting of those few things you know, they're going to learn more. So, you're waiting to hear what else comes from the files, potentially what comes from congressional hearings. Yeah. I think they may change the law on foundations, too. You may think that I'm sorry, you think >> I think I think there's a good chance, but Congress doesn't act that fast. They they they they So, the uh but I I just think that that Congress reacts to whatever the public's mad about and they'll be mad about the Epstein thing. But you said that you think they could change the law on foundations as a result. >> think there could be major foundation hearings. And the changes that would go after the foundations that would do what? Strip their tax It it status. >> Congress will want will want to look like they're doing something about it, and foundations have done a lot more lobbying in the past. I mean, there's been hasn't been any anti-foundation lobbying to speak of, and there's been Foundations are there, and everybody goes to Washington. It's astounding to me how how uh No. Washington is it's really become important. That's where the money is dealt out, that's where the rules are dealt out. Do you think the foundation foundations in general have done good work? Do you think the Gates Foundation has done good work? >> I'm sure they've done good work. I don't think they'd be around if they hadn't. Some good work. The question is is what whether the rules get changed in terms of what they can do or their taxation gets We look at Look at the Harvard. I mean, you know, that it it uh Once public opinion changes, Congress changes. Uh you know, it's it's it's uh just the way it works. I did Are you sorry you've given the money to the Gates Foundation? >> I'm I'm I'm >> Yeah. Well, I I mean, I It's But I wish that certain things hadn't have happened, obviously. But I don't But it isn't like they're stealing money for themselves or anything like that. I mean, Bill pours his efforts into it. Melinda pours her efforts into it. The person guy that runs it does He's as He's a guy I'd hire myself, you know. I mean, it it Mark Suzman. Yeah. Yeah. And and uh And I think he's actually the best CEO they've had, you know, and and then And I don't envy his job. But I also I also think that I think I'll wait and see. They've got 96 billion dollars that they're sitting on now. At the foundation. At the foundation. Nobody's got anything like that. Although Bill has also said that he plans to spend that money down pretty rapidly over the next 20 years, I think. >> of his own money and and add to it. >> >> I I don't I don't know what will happen. I mean, There There's been you know, you you and Bill and Melinda also created the Giving Pledge, where you got billionaires around the world to sign up and agree that they would give away at least half of their wealth, either while they were living or upon their death. Um and you got hundreds of people to sign up to that. There There's 200 and some Yeah, 250 some people to sign up to that. It It's astounding to me that we've got that many. We What What What Bill has done, on which I give him credit for, is he's taken it abroad, and you're changing you're changing the behavior of societies to some small degree. The United States is Now, they've got to partly by laws that favor them too and everything else, but but uh uh The United States is experiment not only in a lot of other ways, but also actually in terms of private philanthropy, and uh Bill has made small little cracks in in that around the world, which I think only defies centuries and centuries of behavior. So, his is the energy he brings to anything he's he's involved in is incredible. I mean, you I'm too lazy. >> >> I I'm not going to go run the the world. Uh I just, you know, I I I feel we launched something good, and it I feel that there is no one that's a member of the Giving Pledge that is giving less than they would have given otherwise. Now, we never told them what to give it to. We never told them when they should give it. We didn't make it a legal pledge. I mean, but we we really got response on that. There There has been There've been some articles written rece- recently about the backlash in certain sectors, uh technology billionaires in particular, um Peter Thiel, Marc Andreessen, who have said that they don't like the Giving Pledge, and they they think it's woke. If If If they don't like it, they don't have to belong to it. >> >> They can They can retire from it. They They didn't make a legal pledge anyway. Right. And uh There may be any one of a lot of reasons why rich people don't like other rich people or who knows what happens, but but I would say this, that Well, I I know I I just would bet a lot of money that nobody is giving less because of it than they would have otherwise given, and a fair number of people, not not huge numbers, but not insignificant numbers, either, are giving it earlier or giving more. The biggest objection that people would raise with me, and it usually was by the mother, was that they just didn't want to become targets of articles about how rich they were. And you can't blame them for that. I mean, they They're worried about They could be worried about anything, but but uh A lot of people joined. One guy even joined because he he he he he said, "All I want is to have lunch with Becky Quick." I said >> >> I said, "I think I think He didn't He didn't follow through, apparently, but >> No, I never heard from him. But but I mean, that I mean, you If you got a lot of billionaires, you get a lot of peculiar people, but they they Not that that's peculiar. I don't I shouldn't present you with that. >> >> But uh It was amazing to me the reception we got. And we just started dialing. Yeah. And we hit the obvious to I mean, obviously, it's fallen off the rate of additions. And obviously, uh you know, we made We genuinely said, "We're not judging the people. We're not the guy to judge whether if they made their money like or we weren't you know, cuz what counts is what what they're doing with it, you know? I mean, that's all we're talking about is, for God's sakes, you know, give away half of it." Mhm. And that's so different from a for a family that's got a family farm for 100 years, and they planned on giving it to their kids and all kinds of things. Then it is for some guy like me that just made it in stocks, you know? I mean, it would be a big emotional decision if I were like a bunch of Well, you've got certain very rich farmers, you know, that own lots of of acreage, and they've been building it their whole life for the turn over to their kids, and they buy the farm next to them and everything. So, it it uh I think I I I feel good about the Giving Pledge. You said you haven't talked to Bill about any of the issues that have come out from the Epstein files. Are you still good friends with him? We've had great times together. But at least he's treated me better than I think he's probably treated anybody else. I mean, he's arranged trips that that arranged for the kinds of foods I liked to the Wall Street Journal being in China or what I mean, he he's been terribly thoughtful with me throughout this. Uh But I think until it gets cleared up, I don't I just don't think it makes sense to do a lot of talking, for one thing. I I I I I don't want to be under uh I I My memory's no good anymore, and then I don't want to be under oath in terms of trying to remember everything good over 30 years that or 20 years the foundation's done or anything like that. I didn't have anything to do with it except I put put the money in, but And you may say you can You can say, "Well, you're derelict in not in not doing it." But I I'm doing one of my own's foundations. I've never looked at what they give, either. You know, I mean, I just I I trust people. Yeah. And I think I've trusted very good people, but I think I can see where if somebody gets a guy like Epstein involved in their life, uh they don't want to talk about it. Yeah. You know, I I I wouldn't I mean, he's been very useful to me that Bill has never said, "Come on along. I want you to meet >> >> Epstein." So, he >> >> he he he could have he could have done things that that would have been screwed up my life. I I'd have gone along with him. If If he If he'd said to me after the annual meeting or sometime, and he said, "You know, I'm going to New York. Why don't you fly along? And And there's this interesting guy or something." I probably would have gone, you know? And so, >> >> I've I've got him to thank for not doing that. But you can't get away from what happened, either. And and and you can't get away from the fact that foundations are a peculiar They're something that our country has really endorsed. I mean, charitable deductions and donor-advised funds and all of that sort of thing. And and That's worth looking at, probably more often than every 30 or 40 years. Mhm. Foundations just What they do is they they They lobby just basically leave us alone. >> >> Mhm. We we have um 87 seconds left in the show. Um any other thoughts that you'd like to throw in because I don't think we've covered enough ground. Well, I think the interesting thing is you've got America which is the wonder of the world. And at the same time you've got a great number of people that and they're they're just as much human beings as you you or I and you know, they may not they they they may not have the same IQ or anything like that, but I think the differentials are too great, but I also think it's worked. So, how do you actually solve all that through an entity which is basically broken down into two sides that uh sort of automatically vote against each other no matter what the issue is. I mean, You mean Democrats and Republicans? >> Yeah, Democrats and Republicans. I mean, We have 20 seconds. >> >> It's become more partisan than than ever and and we're more prosperous than ever and everybody ever dreamt. So, you have to say capitalism has worked, but it still needs you know, it it uh I guess we're finished with our time. >> 3 seconds. You You start Are you a Democrat or Republican? I've been both and I I I was I was actually on the ballot as a Republican in 1960, but I but uh and my dad was very Republican. I uh went to the Democratic side and now I'm an independent. Okay. We're going to leave it on that and that's enough of a tease till the next time we talk with you, but Warren, thank you very much for your time today. >> of fun. >> >> Thank you for listening to this special Squawk Pod reports from Omaha with Warren Buffett. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernen, Becky Quick, and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Squawk Pod is produced by me, Zach Valecic, Cameron Costa, and Katie Kramer. John Lizzul Ration is our editor. Have a great day. >>