Hello and welcome to Story Xtory, the podcast by My Matter that dives deep into stories across pop culture, plus gives you advice on creating your own. It's episode 230, which kind of feels like a milestone. I don't know, round number or something, but uh it's a lot of numbers. Uh and I'm your co-host, Nigel. >> I am Tazzy, content creator and co-host. >> And for our behind the story episodes, you know that we like to talk to creative professionals and practitioners across industries to unpack their journey. And today we're going to hear the story behind Michael Nan, the founder of Comics It. Michael, welcome to the show. How are you doing? Thank you very much for having me, Nigel. And it's a a pleasure to be your 230th guest. Feels like a milestone for me, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because uh we've been, you know, we've been in in the 20s and it just went up to 30. I was like, "Oh, that's that looks different." So, it's something uh it's something. So, yeah. Thanks for joining and um definitely interested to get your perspective on on comics and reading and literacy and and everything you're doing with uh comics as well. So, yeah. And uh for listeners, you can subscribe to Story Xtory wherever you get your podcast from. That includes Apple podcasts and Spotify, YouTube as well. We're putting episodes on YouTube. So if you're one of those people who like to listen to podcasts on YouTube, I say that like I'm also not one of those people, but you've got that option as well. Uh you can also send us your feedback and uh questions in a variety of ways. You can chat with us in the My Matter Studio 77 Discord. We are also available the oldfashioned way. Email us studio77@myatter.com or throw your thoughts at us on social media. We are @myatter on Twitter, my matter TV on Instagram and Tik Tok and my.com on blue sky. You can get to Tazzy at lifeofwamer on Instagram and Tik Tok and Tazzy on everything else. Uh you can also check out the brand atmy.com to see what we're about where we've got some plans uh in the works for uh the rest of this year and next year including a new website. But uh you can head there for now to see what we do, why we do it, and how you can get involved. Um so before we learn more about our guest today, uh let's update you with the latest from the My Matter Universe. We're talking about comics, we do manga, we have opportunities for people to get to our manga as well. So, in the next month or so, yeah, well, November, we got some things coming up for November. Uh, so I will be going to the Moto Comic-Con making what is becoming yearly pilgrimage to uh to Suna Skies. Um although last time it was raining. It actually rained last last year like it was in London which was somewhat disappointing but definitely didn't take the shine of what is a really cool event. Very good um community feel and international community feel from guests that attend from different parts of Europe mainly but uh some further out as well. So I'll be there the 8th and 9th of November bringing our manga. You can check out our universe there if you happen to be in Malta. I will be showcasing the collection as well. And then I'll be back and the following week going to Thought Bubble, which is a little closer to home in Harriut, the north of England on November the 15th and 16th. Another event I've been to a number of times. I think I need two hands to count the amount of times I've been to both events maybe. Uh so I'll be in the Harriut Convention Center for 2 days celebrating independent comics. So, as many um as many independent comic creators as the eye can see in that space. So, I'll be there over the weekend and also doing a workshop on the Saturday for young creators aged 10 and up getting into making their comics as well. Um, so one of the comics I'll be bringing is Origins Against All Odds, and that features Tazzy for a reflective and hopefilled manga about pursuing your creative career goals in the face of resistance from doubters and the world around you. So you can also get that online biomatter.com. We have some events to come for our do I look like a gamer campaign as well. We have recently just been to the London Comic-Con. Uh, we did a bunch of things there. At some point, videos, photos will be up. We're doing our usual thing, showcasing the campaign photos, doing panels as well. So, if you missed us this time around, we have every intention of returning in May and October and 2026. Uh, so stay tuned for that. Uh what you can get involved with is our next in-person event as part of the campaign which is the friends and family game design jam on Saturday, November the 29th. We'll be at Square Enix at their headquarters in South London for an event where you can come and learn to create your own tabletop game and get feedback from games professionals and we might hand out some prizes as well. So it's an event designed for all ages and experience levels. It's all about promoting creativity and teamwork, learning about the games industry in a fun environment. Uh we've been to the offices, we've seen the space. It's uh very fun. A lot of lot of statues, a lot of swords, and uh it has a a kitchen as well. I think that's all I can say without breaking the NDA. >> So many swords. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, get on that because spaces are limited. So, definitely RSVP to secure your spot. It is a free event, but like I say, space is limited. We have more campaign announcements to come. So stay tuned for other ways you can get involved this year and next. Uh and if you are one of the many many people who spend their time on Twitch, why not spend your time on Twitch watching us do different shows as part of our Studio 77 activity lineup. Uh so we host different shows with creative professionals. We also play games each month. You can catch a range of shows we do depending on the month. We've got the Studio 77 report, which we're going to be doing a new version, so stay tuned for that. Uh, new format for that coming up. We've got casual conversations with comic creators, where I speak to a different comic creator each month about them, really about them, their work, their process, uh, and wherever else comes up in the conversation. And games night, where we play games with our community, play a different game each time, or sometimes we come back to games that we're fond of. So, you can join us in the chat for all of those shows. comment which one's the next one. But yeah, follow us on Twitch and uh if you're a young aspiring creative professional or you know of one, send them our way because you can be part of the Maya showrunners work experience program. So we're creating opportunities for young people age 16 and up to work with our team across comic production events and content creation. And we've got a new group starting on our program at the moment. We've had some people join us at recent events. um everyone getting a chance to yeah see what it's like to to work in in the real world of work. Apparently it's a it's a shock to some people. Uh they'll get it. I'm sure they'll they'll figure it out. But that's us. Now with all that being said, let's go behind the story with today's guest. We're speaking to Michael who is a creative entrepreneur working at the intersection of media and tech across Europe, US, Asia, and is currently building comics, the world's most inspiring comics app for kids and is the founding member of Comic Book UK. So, Michael, listeners of the podcast and those who follow my matter will know that creativity is very important to us. But to get us started, what does creativity mean to you? >> I first just have to say, Nigel, congratulations on all the events uh that you and Myamada are putting on and for hosting this podcast and trying to demystify uh a very mysterious sort of thing, which is uh being a creative professional. So, >> I appreciate that. We'll work it out ourselves. >> Yeah, maybe maybe we'll learn what it means over the course of this conversation, you and me. So yeah, I think creativity for me has always been the most important part of my life. Uh, and it's always been the most inspirational thing for me. Uh, when I was young, I used to read a lot. I used to play a lot of video games. I used to watch a lot of movies. And those influences uh, for those stories which were crafted by, you know, great storytellers from across the world very much influenced my worldview. So to to answer your question, I think creativity is the force through which we learn from generations that came before and from different parts of the world and how to empathize with our fellow man to be honest. And that's why I'm so passionate about what we're doing at Comics and so kind of alarmed I guess at large at the kind of wider media landscape uh which has strayed quite massively away from what I uh where I derive my sort of joy from creativity from. >> Yeah. Yeah. I feel that there's um some optimism mixed with dread in there. No, I like that that definition though. So yeah, I'm all for that. Like learning from people who came before and yeah, remixing things and yeah, adding our experiences to it as well. So that sounds good. So we met was it last year maybe? I think it was last. >> Yeah, last year. >> Yeah, last last year. And I know you've been through some like changes. We we'll get into comics but just to take a snapshot of where you are because you you have recently I guess pivoted is the word from entering the world of comics in a general sense to now being very focused on uh young people reading comics and and literacy. So can you just give us a snapshot of like where you are with with comics and your your journey so far? >> Yeah, definitely. I will on the on the comics side. Uh as as you adeptly mentioned, we are building the most inspiring place uh for kids to read and create comics and we are doing that in order to tackle for for two reasons. One is to tackle the kids literacy crisis which has been sort of laid bare by uh recent uh data from the National Literacy Trust showing that you know less than one in three kids in the UK enjoy reading at the moment. you know, reading is at a two decade low, etc., etc. You know, the stats are pretty pretty stark and and damning. And our efforts with comics is to address that crisis by giving access to lots of great comics, which are all age appropriate and all available to read at one easy to afford uh price tag. And then also uh giving kids the ability to create their own comics and learn how to uh create their own characters and their own stories. And what's very important to us on that side is to retain even though we're a digital product, we still have a lot of a huge amount of respect for both the print in terms of selling physical books and also in terms of kids drawing and having the sort of pento paper experience. So that's that's what we're really focused on is creating a space where kids can read great comics, be inspired by them, and then go off and and draw their own and make those uh into into larger into larger stories. And it goes kind of back actually to what I was saying earlier just about my own experience. You know, all these sort of influences for me when I was younger very much melded together. Film, you know, film, video games, books, etc. would sort of meld together for me into one cohesive story strand that I enjoyed sort of manifesting in my mind. And what excites me about what we're doing with comics, it is giving kids the ability to yeah be inspired by professional stories and then go off and tell their own stories all through the medium of comics where you know anything is possible with words and pictures. So I think that's uh yeah so that's that's what I'm that's what we're up to. We are at in age right now. uh we will be out in the marketplace uh very soon hopefully this side of Christmas and we will be announcing some large partnerships uh with well-known publishers uh in the UK beyond in short order. So yeah uh if anyone's interested uh our website is comics.app. You can also follow us on Instagram at comicsapp. Uh not to throw that plug in too early but just uh just just just saying. >> Cool. Yeah, no worries. Um, yeah, we'll definitely like dig into that and because you were recently also at the the Frankfurt Bookf Fair as well. Is that how recent was that? And and what was your experience like there? >> Yeah, so that was just uh just a few just a few years ago. Uh that was a really really good experience. I was part of the web tune pavilion uh which was the inaugural effort by the Frankfurt Bookf Fair to recognize new web tune platforms that are springing up all over the world. So I was there alongside an Indian platform and a Taiwanese platform as well as agents uh from Europe and the US. So that was a really interesting experience because it was deliberately done in such a way it wasn't that the Koreans weren't invited but it was done in such a way to celebrate that the format of web tune vertical scroll comics not specifically web tunist because webune is a brand in itself. It is. It is. And when I say web tune, I mean vertical scroll comic. The format of web tune uh has spread beyond the shores of Korea and is available. You know, new platforms like ours are utilizing this format to tell stories in a in a new way. And to your and to your point, you asked uh how we kind of ended up in this position. When we first, and we can go into my background, I suppose in a second, but when we first entered the world of comics, the goal was to create a general entertainment product uh utilizing great comics and converting them from page format into web tune format with the intention of releasing them to a wide audience so they could enjoy them in a new format. What we discovered uh was twofold. One was there was a huge demand for this in from kids publishers specifically who were looking to reach kids on on devices in a new way but also that there was more of a social imperative I suppose or more of a social good to be done and more of a mission that we could really get excited about uh as an organization uh because these vertical scroll comics in the UK haven't really become very mainstream yet amongst younger kids and they are spending so much time on their devices playing Roblox or watching YouTube and there's such a hunger from parents and actually I think from kids our research suggests that actually kids are hungry for more options than just gaming and videos and that's where we're coming in and we're really keen to try to get them reading in a new format and in an accessible fun way where they already are and kind of supplementing the rise in kids interest in comics and graphic novels, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. I mean, I was recently in Forbidden Planet in Camden here in London and while I was there, there was a a kid came in with his mom, I think sister and dad came in afterwards and the mom was just like the the kid he he was just off. He was he knew what he wanted and he was just I think it was his birthday recently, so he had money to money to burn and his mom was like, "I don't really I don't really get it, but he's into it. he's reading and it's great. So I started asking him like what what is he reading? And he must have been I don't know he looked like between maybe 11 11 and 13 and he had a good list. I think like Vinland Saga was on there for those which is quite a like mature um I wouldn't say inappropriate but just definitely mature concept. So I feel like the the interest is there given the awareness. So that's really good >> 100%. And I think uh yeah when you dig into the data from the Nationality Trust I think there is a particular particular alarm bells ringing around boys in particular uh in the UK reading and that those alarm bells are kind of only silenced by comics. Uh that you know those are that is the medium that British boys today enjoy reading. And I think that we have a really great opportunity, responsibility, whatever you want to call it, to actually capture that interest, and attention and deliver reading in a format that they're going to fall in love with and become lifelong readers as a result. Um, I saw an article in the I think the Sunday Times is running a sort of get into reading campaign and I think Michael Mor Pergo wrote a piece today saying that you know it's shocking that in a country that boasts uh Shakespeare and Tennyson you know that we don't have a a school library in every school and I think that's >> yeah I think that's uh definitely the case and I think we don't have to go into why that's happened but that is the scenario that we're in today that a lot kids just don't have access to books or to comics or to graphic novels or or any form of reading and it's it's it's alarming and it's something that needs to change. >> Yeah, those oh my so I was recently at uh the book sellers children conference and you just reminded me that that was a stat that came up. So I know like Tazzy you so big on libraries and like their role in communities. So I don't know if you knew this but there was someone and forgive I've forgotten her name but someone high up I think at one of the big publishers someone someone important and was on stage giving like the keynote and things and it was like oh and the aim to put a library in every school because was it I don't know what the stat is exactly like one in three or or some some percentage of schools that don't have a library in a school. I did not know that. I just assumed every school had a library. Like why would you not? >> Me too. Like I think my both my primary school and my secondary school had a library. My secondary school had a twofloor library. Six floor only upstairs. >> Well I think um yeah Nigel you and I were both at the Sheffield Children's Media Conference in over the summer and uh they during the Nationality Trust kind of uh event there. They they spoke a lot about how there was a real dir of libraries in the UK and they actually asked someone in the audience or someone in the audience asked a question and they were from Ireland and they were saying that in Ireland the situation is completely different and they have they overindex with libraries. They have I think more libraries than schools or something. So so anyway it doesn't it doesn't have to be like this is the takeaway. And I should probably als I should also point out probably given that we all have a strong commitment to UK literacy. I should point out that my accent is very misleading. I actually grew up in the UK. I'm born and raised in the UK in London but went to an international school. Uh which is why I have an American accent, but I am just as passionate about uh the state of the UK as anybody else. >> Okay. Oh, thanks for clearing up because I I have made an assumption. So, let's >> You You're not the first person I know that is like fully like born here, grew up here, that has an American accent. So, >> really, I'd like to I'd like to I'd like to form a support group with >> Yeah, that's that's that's good to know. Well, well, my wife has a Americanized accent as well, and she she's from Switzerland, but went to one of these schools, so >> it's it just it it gets you. It gets you, unfortunately. >> Okay. All right. Let me uh adjust my preconceived notions and we will continue with the interview. So So speak speaking of uh your sort of background and everything, do you want to like tell us where well I guess you've told us where where you did grow up and I'm interested to know because you talked about like the different things that you were into. At what point in your life was that interest in shows, stories like sparked? Well, I think uh you know my background was growing up in London attending an international school and I always had a very strong interest in stories and their relationship with culture and nationality and from a global perspective. I think that was always very interesting to me. And so this will come full circle. I I I promise because yeah for me stories were always a window into other places uh and into other minds into other ways of of thinking and and being and I really really wanted to be a journalist actually as a result of that. So my initial interest in sort of the creative sector, the media sector was journalism and I went to university in the US to a university called John's Hopkins in Baltimore >> and I was really keen on being a journalist. I was part of the school paper. I wrote an article uh in the school in the John's Hopkins newspaper about uh juvenile justice in Baltimore because coming from London, I was very surprised again despite the accent, I was really surprised to see in the US how the legal system worked and how the juvenile justice system worked. And I was really shocked uh at how, at least this is sort of circa 2010, how kids were basically being put into these juvenile justice centers and left there for months and months and months due to a lack of capacity to place them in rehabilitation centers. And I learned about this in one of my classes. And this was something which everyone else, all the sort of people grew up in the US sort of took for granted, but I was really shocked by. And so I wound up writing an article in the Baltimore Sun about this. Um, and that then led me to uh receiving a grant to make a documentary on the subject. And I made a documentary which was released locally in Baltimore. Got a kind of local release whilst I was at university. And that was seen >> Yeah. And that was seen by one of the producers of House of Cards who hired me to work on House of Cards. And that's how I kind of got into scripted storytelling um out of kind of non-fiction into fiction and I also did internships and things like that and I'd be very happy to you know talk more about the US versus UK system and you know precoid to now and everything but yeah I worked on House of Cards and then uh after that I worked at HBO in New York and then my visa ran out because despite again despite the fact I'm not American so I came back to um came back to the UK, stayed in the sort of studio system for a bit when I worked at Universal and in all of these places working at kind of you know associate level you know junior midlevel and then uh went over to as a creative exec at shoe box films which is Joe Wright's production company. Joe being the director of Atonement, Pride and Prejudice, >> Darkest Hour, um sort of big British period dramas >> and I was involved in packaging scripts. Uh I was involved in creative development. I was involved in uh everything related to the kind of development phase of a television show in the UK uh and the US because my remmit was really to try to to to access the US market uh for for shoe box. So I had a lot of experience doing that and then at this point everybody was very excited about what was happening in East Asia. This was sort of 2017 or so and in particular China was this hugely interesting place that everyone was really excited about. Um so I decided at that point uh in my conversations in the UK I realized that there wasn't a huge amount of understanding or awareness of what was happening in China. uh certainly not as much as in the US. And so I thought there'd be an interesting opportunity to kind of spread these national borders and set up a firm which I did which basically facilitated a trade in the docu in the documentary space and the film space between the UK and China. And that was a very exciting and fulfilling goal because it was connecting two very very different cultures which was again sort of my main interest in in the media and very very interesting. Unfortunately, COVID kind of put paid to the uh China market for the UK and uh Okay. >> And uh that was uh after COVID, I started a new company alongside David Baron, who's a producer of Harry Potter, and Linda Jensen, who's a CEO of HBO Europe, Golden Envision Entertainment. This company basically took all that I'd learned up until this point in terms of creatively developing and packaging IP uh for film and television around the world and applied it on a global basis. So we have we've developed projects in Asia, the US, the UK. We've sold projects to Hulu, to Tomorrow Studios, to Universal International in the UK. And we actually made a series already in Japan uh which was quite successful over there called connected the homebound detective which was with or Hulu Japan Japanese language series which I co-created with a Japanese creator which I'd be very happy to discuss as well because that was a really cool experience >> because you were the first what was it the first westerner to responsible for an original Japanese series I >> I believe so. Yeah. So that that's what they told me. I mean, when they uh when they gave us the scripts with our names on it, they had to they didn't even have like the option to write in western sort of left to right. It was all top to bottom. So, it was it was my name top to bottom next to the Japanese characters, which looked pretty pretty funny. But yeah, so I think I think yeah, I was the first Western person to create an original series for Japanese television with a with a Japanese co-creator, of course. And yeah and that and that company still exists and is still very active in Vision Entertainment. David is sort of running that these days and we got into the comic space uh because we saw this very very exciting opportunity because of all my travels to Asia. I sort of saw webune going back to the original you know the neighbor web tune the Korean web tune. Yeah. uh grow massively in all my trips over there before and after COVID and you know I don't want to act as if I was so ahead of the curve but I again I felt it wasn't something that particularly wide awareness at this point in the west and it was something again I thought was very very cool very very uh culturally interesting this great idea of having this space uh where people can read new stories read comics on your phone anywhere and just sort of seeing with my own eyes how prevalent this has become in Korea. It made me very very interested in the medium. And yeah, we we initially set out like I said to create a new version of this for western markets and then realized uh along the way that the best application of this technology would be addressing the kids crisis and making a product specifically for kids. And that's what I'm focusing on now. That's my uh you know that's the capacity in which I I speak to you today is is from the comics angle. >> That's interesting. Do you feel like were it not for the disruption caused by the pandemic you you would not be on this path or was that always in the back of your mind to get into comics somewhere sometime? I think it was always part of my sort of my love for the medium and you know in I really really loved comics growing up particularly Marvel comics um and really all sorts of indie ones as well. So I definitely always had a huge amount of interest and respect for the medium. I always thought and this was particularly true in the kind of heyday of comics to screen adaptations. I always thought that some of the best original ideas were birthed in comics. So I I think I think there were there was always going to be, you know, a world where I moved more into that position and it was something that was always very interesting to me. But it's difficult to know, you know, >> the pre- pandemic world is a is a different world to the one we live in today. So So who knows? >> Sure. Okay. And because you've you've described I mean that that's quite a journey and with some very wellrecoognized like names brands and and properties and then in a sense I was going to say like not leave I guess you're still connected but like starting your own thing after already starting your own thing with envision. How do you is that like a explanation you have to make to friends, partners, family that what sounds like a I'll use air quotes stable position of I'm going to work for like television companies again well-known television companies to like oh no I'm going to go start my own thing like is that conversation with that do you have to convince someone to before making that decision what was that like >> yeah de definitely I think that uh there is in the kind of wider world uh still very much a sense of stability that exists around major you know brands and whether that's actually reflected in the day-to-day life of people working in film and TV today I'm not sure but it is definitely uh still considered to be yeah something that that that is stable or uh that there is a clear path to rise within I think it was a challenge I I I I felt kind of yeah my my own position was I felt very very excited and enthusiastic particularly when we realized that the technology we were developing could be used to help kids. I felt very very excited about that mission and kind of a renewed sense of urgency and excitement. Um, but you definitely do weigh that against the fact that there are, you know, there there are those kind of conceptions of, oh, you know, I thought you were in film and TV and this is something new. And I think that probably any creative entrepreneur who works across different media probably >> has those kinds of feelings because uh although these different creative sectors are related and linked, they they're they are still somewhat siloed. And so you definitely, you know, get accustomed to a new place and a new identity >> when you move between things. But the good thing is is that the comic space is very very welcoming and a very very nice group of people. Uh and I'm very yeah happy to be to be a part of it. >> Cool. And perhaps when you were maybe entering comics or even just starting your career, full stop. Was there any good advice that someone else gave to you when you were starting in your respective journeys and and did you manage to follow it? >> Yeah, I think there was a lot of advice that came to me from lots of people. I think I always also really wanted to be a writer. That was another I mentioned I was, you know, interested in being journalist. Um, and I still harbor, you know, ambitions to write in the future and do some writing on the side and things like that. I was I was in the writer's guild of Great Britain for a little bit because I sold a pilot to a company called Anyway Content a while ago. Um, so I definitely I definitely felt like some good advice that I got on that side on the creative side was to ensure that you kind of understood the business because if you are just solely focused on the creative it obviously can work out really well for you if you're just a great creative but a lot of the time the system doesn't necessarily exist to reward who has the best creative. uh the system often rewards those with the most leverage and I think that's something which I didn't and maybe that's more on the film and TV side than publishing side but that's I would say that is the case in film and TV the who has leverage who has heat and who has the right uh routes to market you know that's always been important I think it's only more important now so I think that would be advice I would give to anyone interested in a creative career is so you don't necessarily have to go as all in on the business as I have and have multiple companies and you know be really really familiar with how to raise money and all that kind of stuff but definitely have an awareness of the business that you're working in and I would also say that having you know I guess quite a unique background across lots of different countries um also kind of realizing that each country has a different way of doing things in the creative sector and there are different ecosystems that exist. Again, I can imagine maybe that is something which >> isn't immediately apparent to somebody uh who who is from the on the outside of the creative sector. >> Yeah. And you know understanding that in Europe they have a large you know there's a lot of government support and there's a lot of government subsidies in the US there's a huge amount of you know um capital flowing around uh both private and institutional. the UK kind of sits somewhere in between and then Asia is its own sort of you know beast. I think understanding that is important because if not if you don't understand it you do sometimes I think risk feeling upset at yourself that you weren't able to get something across the line or do something you know that that you wanted to do but actually maybe the system you work in doesn't really is really set up to do that. Maybe you have to change systems. I think that's a really key a really key consideration before setting out on a commercial on a creative project or career actually. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. I wish I had got and or listened to that advice when I was starting. It took me a bit bit too long is like it is and it's a tough thing cuz with particularly with like creative things cuz often it's it's made by people who actually care about the thing being created and it's sort of like a an internal conflict of making it commercial but then it comes with the you know the existential dread of like how am I going to continue making money to make this sustainable. So, it's like that internal struggle, but knowing the business side of it does help a lot. >> I think it's I think it's really important because you need to understand the Yeah. Like I I think that when you come out of school, particularly I my degree was in writing, creative writing. >> So, I came out of school thinking I was a good writer. I still think I'm a pretty decent writer, but you know, like and and and you're kind of used to at that point being assessed in a fair environment where there's a deadline and you are >> fair. >> Yeah. And you're and everybody in the class gives the story or the novel or the essay to the professor and the professor grades it, you know, and and and that's kind of the way it works. And you don't realize how much things like momentum and branding, press, and all that kind of stuff plays into decision- making in a corporate level. And then you also don't realize how yeah, you it's a it's an entirely different um it's just an entirely different metric. And I think I think to some degree a challenge that creative people have and I think I I've witnessed this sometimes. I think sometimes people don't ever necessarily realize that there are these other metrics involved and people can carry on thinking that it is just a it is just about how good you are and it is and and I should be very clear it is about how good you are. If you are an amazing creative you will get discovered and you will do something. So I'm not it is about the talent, but there are other things that you should understand that weigh into decisions that may or may not get your, you know, your your IP to market or your creativity to to a wider level. >> Yeah. No, that's a really important point especially like you mentioned the going from like the the school environment where like you say it's it's fair and then a lot of pe I say too many then carry that expectation over into the quote unquote real world and expecting that that same fairness to carry over and it doesn't. So yeah know that's solid advice. Would you say aside from like the the business side of things or or maybe as as part of it, were there any other skills or experiences that you brought over from film and TV that you you feel has helped with what you're doing now in in comics and and this industry? >> Yeah. I mean I think despite having said earlier that the that these sectors are siloed, they are actually intimately related. And I think having an understanding of how IP rights work and how the film and television industry works and right sales and second windows and all that kind of business uh is is massively applicable to comics and publishing. I think the the the broader challenge in today's day and age to be honest is understanding more about the tech landscape. uh because tech is an entirely different kettle of fish I think and that's something which I've you know I think learned a lot about over the last 18 months or so in in sort of launching this new venture and I think that's something which would be worth even understanding even if it's not something that you necessarily want to be involved with understanding how say Netflix makes decisions versus how you know a studio in the 1990s would have made decisions uh is valuable because the the economic model is so different. To get to give you an example, you know, in when I was uh learning to it's an obvious example, but when I was learning what a good screenplay was, I used to work for uh Scott Ruden in New York. And Scott was uh you know this this like heavyduty really really great producer, but you know uh was was a challenging guy in lots of reasons for lots of other ways. And yeah, he's sort of retired now, pseudo retired, etc. But he uh, you know, he was really really good at story and uh, he sort of viewed in everyone how important the quality of the kind of narrative and the story was in in all the films he put together. And I think that it's not to say that that's been lost, but I do think that something like the, you know, Scott produced there Will Be Blood and, you know, the first 20 minutes, the first 20 minutes. >> Yeah. Amazing story, but you know the first 20 20 minutes are silent and there will be blood. >> And is it conceivable that in 2025 there will be blood would be commissioned where on a streaming platform, you know, you need something really to happen in the first 90 seconds or someone's going to scroll off. And I think that I think understanding these seismic changes to the way that content is consumed and the money is made from content is really important if you want to be a creative because you will yeah you you you need to have that sense of uh what kind of stories you're telling for which platforms for whom and I think I think it has changed a lot and and and as creatives we have to embrace that change and understand it uh in order to continue making great art. >> Yeah. To continue making and just for like consumers because you mentioned um earlier in terms of like I guess as my matter part of our role as we see is like that demystifying thing and it it's it strikes me as it's always struck me as as odd. Not I don't know if odd is the right word just I don't know a shame a shame that the maybe the lack of understanding that the let's say the average consumer has about that stuff that you just said. So, you know, we see it in in games a lot just the the judgment that comes out and it comes from a place of I I don't say this in a dispersion way necessarily, but like ignorance of like you're you're saying things and you you you don't know how it work. You might think you know and it's certainly a lot of people on social media think they know how things work and they don't and it's like you you don't understand. So, so you're missing out on why you know why this show got cancelled or why this one got made versus that one or whatever it might be. And I think that better understanding would help everyone as well. So yeah know it's good for you to to mention that. So given that then what what do you think makes a good story like comic TV otherwise given cuz you know you talked about you say Netflix the idea of having like silence at the start of a story or even you talking about web tune and that idea of scrolling. So, you know, once upon a time, the I guess the only way was you you'd have a physical book and you were talking about page turns and you know, there's generations of comic creators who are dialed into that page turn and keeping the interest across the page whereas now it's scrolling. How do you think that changes stories? Like what what makes a good story now when people can just click off at any point? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I think fundamentally the values that exist for storytelling are resolute and are uh you know resonate across time. You know, great great stories are about great characters first and foremost and they're about characters that go on a journey of discovery and change over the course of that discovery. And they they learn something about themselves and as a result, you learn something about yourself. You could argue that, you know, uh, various forms of popular content, you know, maybe don't have that level of sort of quality to to to their stories. But I think the things that really I I would sort of I would push back on that a bit because I think the things that really work and really sort of echo down the ages and and become hits and become part of popular culture to your point always have a strong narrative arc uh for a protagonist that goes on a journey and learns something about themselves. And the entire ethos, the entire world building element, the entire any anything else that is important as media changes, it it'll it is all fundamentally about characters who are flawed uh confronting their flaws. And I think that's the case whether you're doing adult or uh child's content. I think uh when it comes when it comes to kids stories I think it is a lot about um you know like confronting your anxieties or your fears about growing up um or your fears you'll be less than etc. you know, these are in many ways like completely universal themes that again echo across cultures and I think that's the the receptacle that exists for stories like that that is why stories are so critical to our development. I think in terms of the format, for starters, I'll say at Comics that we're very committed to the printed page. I think that like kids still do read books. There's obviously still a major and and and a must-have, a tradition of bedtime stories on physical paper, the page turn, etc. These are all uh things that that that should and must remain in in society and in culture. And and when you look at like sort of scrolling stories, etc. for for us it's not so much about how it's just about these are stories that come at a different time uh that kids can engage with at a different time that people can engage with at different times and I think that the key element to be aware of is that you know your audience is no longer a captured audience. You know, they're not they're not sitting in a cinema. They're not and and and not gonna leave for two hours. They're on the bus. They're not Exactly. They're they're on the bus. They're on their phone. And you're not just competing for their attention against other stories and other comics in a in a bookshop or in on in Blockbuster, obviously. I mean, goes without saying, but like you now you're competing with, you know, mobile games or, you know, checking their email or whatever. you know, you're competing with a the whole world of media uh is competing with each other for attention. And I think that you do need to be aware of those things. But that doesn't mean and I think where comics, you know, because they are relatively low cost to create. That is where comics can really shine because people want original stories, they want things that feel different. you know, our research and testing the app is really exciting because it shows that kids do initially gravitate to maybe IPs that they are familiar with, but then, you know, really want to find something new and different that looks different. Uh, manga obviously works really well, but other stories from other countries and other art styles also um appeal. So, I think I think it isn't necessarily about the story structure doesn't have to change. It's just about an awareness of yeah, you it's it's not that and it's certainly not that you can't be slow anymore either, but you do just have to be aware that you know you're competing in a wider environment for people's attention and to tell your stories accordingly. Maybe with more cliffhers. >> Maybe that's the takeaway. >> Maybe. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We'll we'll split this podcast episode into like uh 10 different parts and just cliff cliffhanger. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um, it's funny cuz I'm actually watching I don't know if you've seen Better Call Saul on Netflix and it actually struck me that it's a Netflix production cuz as I was watching it I just assumed it was pre-Netflix even though I know I cuz I watched Breaking Bad but cuz it's slow it's it takes its time in a very confident and competent way. But my impression of like Netflix like just bang bang bang at the start and just capture attention. But this is like proper uh storytelling and yeah is excellent. Well, you know, things like um you know, Ozark, etc. are also great. Although al although I do have to say I think Better Call Soul Nigel was originally on AMC and it was picked up for global by I think it was picked up for global by Netflix. Don't quote me out, but I'm pretty I'm pretty sure it was originally cable cable show. Yeah. Okay. That's not to say that's not to say Netflix can't do it because they can with stuff like Ozark and Dark and other great you know there are a lot of great wonderful shows on Netflix. Of course. >> Yeah. you just want to try to stay away from uh studio notes, you know, I've gotten studio notes in the past that are like, you know, there has to be a twist on, you know, on this page or whatever, you know, and that's and that's when it's hard to, you know, that's when it can be kind of creatively difficult to to to do. But I think I think that like I said, the things that really stand the test of time and the advantage that comics have is that you you can have more ownership over your creative are things that tell classic you know stories of triumphing over your flaws just in an engaging entertaining way. >> Yeah. And then with the the comics it apples pitch, right? What's the thing that makes it stand out? And we've had discussions about it, so I kind of know, but yeah, what is that thing that makes it stand out particularly in the face of this what is I guess officially a crisis of reading for pleasure here in the UK? Like what is that connection that you're looking to make through the app? I think I think it is about there is no digital space online right now where kids can enjoy reading comics in a convenient manner on their devices and and continue their love of reading. So let me give you an example. when we started to do when we started looking at this space, we did focus groups and one of the uh kids that we spoke with actually when he when he reads comics mo most kids say when they read comics the emotional reaction is is is being calm. It calms him down. And one kid said one kid said no it uh it makes me frustrated and I said well I didn't say I wasn't in the focus group but they they said you know why why and he said because I know it's going to end. Um because I know that, you know, I can, you know, comics are, you know, quick to read. You can get through them quite quickly and I know when I start reading a comic, it's going to be over soon. And >> you should get into mango. Give him one. >> Well, yeah. Exactly. Well, exactly. And that's obviously, you know, a specific type of comic. But I think that's where, you know, that's where what we're doing is very interesting because there is that's kind of interest in reading that's being left on the table in a little bit in a way because if you do finish reading the physical book and then there's nothing for you to read and you're going to get something in a week's time or in a month's time or the next time you go to the shops or whatever, you know, that's that's time that actually the child wants to keep reading as a form of for pleasure, for entertainment, >> as kid. >> Exactly. And and and that's being lost. And what's going to fill the gap in that time is going to be a return to, you know, it's going to be returned to gaming. It's going to be returned to vertical videos or or what have you, which are spaces which are, you know, can uh be, you know, negative for kids. So, I think that that's uh that accessibility point where again we're we're we're just offering a really great selection of content in one place. It's all age appropriate. Uh the parent doesn't have to worry that there's going to be any material on there which is questionable um or sexualized or violent or anything like that. It's all safe for them to the kids to read. And over time it will also uh feature more educational elements uh like uh being able to select words that kind of thing to learn definitions and things like that. And and the interest the interesting thing that we found in our research is I think kids really are engaged with that. They like the idea of increasing the vocabulary. They like the idea of like you know even like almost like reading comprehension quizzes which I was surprised by. So there's definitely that that that's kind of our unique proposition in the market. We are the best place for kids to go to read and also to to to get into reading through comics and also embolden their creativity through drawing tutorials, learning to draw and then ultimately uh being able to do a lot of different things with their drawings in the app to create their own stories. So yeah, I think I think in that respect we're quite differentiated uh from a lot of the other digital comics platforms which target older consumers and tend to, you know, have a fair amount of sex sexualized imagery and violence. >> And you talked about it, the the National Literacy Trust. And for those that don't know, uh the the trust is is an independent charity that is all about like empowering I guess it's not just children like just poor people, young adults and um fully fully grown adults as well, but it's all about literacy skills. So empowering them with literacy skills that people need to succeed. And they did a report in uh was it last year was it? >> It was this year. I think it was May May June. They do it every year, but this was the year where it was particularly it was particularly bad. >> Yeah. So this Yeah. Yeah, cuz um this is where I I became more aware and as I'm talking to people and they everyone kept referencing this report that showed that children and young people's reading for enjoyment is at an all-time low. And um I think it's the lowest it's been since they started recording what 20 years ago. >> Yeah. >> So none of that is good. And just to throw in some other stats from the National Literacy Trust report, they said that only one in three children and young people aged 8 to 18 say they enjoy reading in their free time and only one in five say they read something daily in their free time. So that again that's not good. >> Yeah. I don't even know where to go. That's the end of the episode. It's not good. It's dark. It's dark time. No. Um so when and obviously you're Oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say, but the report did have one have some positive news. Yeah. So, so the positive news was that almost half of UK kids read comics regularly. >> Yes. >> And that the enjoyment of reading comics is uh very good. And if you it's not in this report, but in the US library checkouts of comics are at 90 up year on year 90% uh from from uh from COVID. So there there there there is a huge interest in reading. It's just in a new medium. >> There you go. So and I've been I've been talking to people in who are in comics and people are lobbying like arts council here in the UK government for you know better focus on on comics and I think cuz I was saying before we started recording I was at I was recently at a conference the the book sellers uh children's conference. So essentially publishers and and people in that in that realm talking about this. So everyone's scared about this cuz you know whether from the the just basic like moral side of it of just it's scary to to think of kids reading less and less in a time and a knock on effects linked to like poverty and just attainment and and career progression or even just the commercial side because obviously if you're in publishing and you you see kids like less interested in reading you've got an existential crisis on your hands cuz that's not a good sign. So wherever wherever you you land. So everyone's like panicked about this. And one of the things that I found I say frustrating because see we make comics micro you've got comic app and you know you're otherwise familiar with the world of comics and the impact on young people. And so that stat that you rightfully brought up as a silver lining that essentially there's no crisis in comics cuz that is a way to engage kids and keep them reading and keep them in the habit of reading. It is frustrating for me and I I wonder your thoughts on this if you've seen it and what you felt. It's frustrating for me to see adults either like parents or or professionals in in publishing cry out at this crisis and then when they see when we see like kids reading comics say that doesn't count. That's not real reading. Comics aren't a serious thing. Stop it. But also, ah, kids aren't reading. What do we do? That's a frustrating thing to me. I saw at at this conference where and to be fair there were people like cuz I I was on a panel at the conference but then I sat in on other panels and and some people did mention graphic novels and and comics but even and that's positive but also it also feels sometimes it feels a bit separate like not I'm not talking about the people specifically who said that in this instance but just in general where people do bring up comics as like an an other thing and sometimes I almost want to get even though we're talking about kids crisis in reading I al almost want to get adults into comics so they can really cuz I don't think they really understand. They just know it's a thing but they don't really understand the impact on why this medium has this connection with kids. So yeah, have you seen that as well? What do you feel? >> I definitely I I I think that it's a the classic response that you know it doesn't count as real reading. the the encouraging thing I would say I'm not as uh I'm maybe not as of as you with the sort of publishing sector on this point particular but I will say from our research uh from and from our beta testing that feeling has evaporated amongst K parents for the most part. Um the ex the we we we actually did a did we were at the Lakes International Comic Art Festival a few few weeks ago and we demoed the beta there to about a hundred families and not a single every single parent agreed strongly that that uh comics were good for their children and were a strong literacy tool. And admittedly admittedly that was at a comics festival. >> I was Yeah, I was just going to say but it's good. It is positive. But yeah, it's almost like a self- selecting audience. >> I I normally I would agree with you, but I would say we had an awful lot of people through the door that day who just happened to be walking by that weren't uh weren't there for the festival because I spoke to everybody and we had people there from immigrant backgrounds. We had people there who, you know, we we had people there driven, you know, hours to be there, but then we also had people just come in. Yeah. >> Exactly. And so we have people there, you know, like I say, from overseas backgrounds. We have people, local people there. We have people who didn't even really know anything about comics, didn't mind, didn't, you know, didn't like, you know, didn't have a strong opinion about them. And that was still the the feedback we got. I do take your point that uh that is a, you know, somewhat self- selecting group, >> but it was also uh very much what we found in terms of talking to educators, talking to librarians. And I think that uh the literacy, don't quote me on this, but I think the idea of this year of reading that the National Literacy Trust is putting into place, which is this new initiative uh in 2026. Well, it's actually the third time they've done it, but it's uh it's an initiative for next year to try to encourage kids and and and adults to read more. I think that they're one of the kind of main reasons, one of the main tasks they're doing is to try to say that, you know, comics do count. You know, digital reading counts, even gaming can count if it's reading intensive. Trying to kind of redefine what g what reading is uh in the 21st century. And I think or in the in the 2020s rather. And I and I think that's that's the kind of critical thing. And I think anyone who kind of harbors the idea that comics aren't real reading kind of misses the purpose in a way because the goal of what we're trying to do with this platform is to create lifelong readers and to create people who, you know, to create adults who who like to read and kind of can uh enjoy the benefits of reading that I've outlined a few times here about, you know, being empathetic towards other people and other cultures and, you know, the the world around them. And if you're not going to engage kids where they are, which is in comics, online, etc., you know, then you're they're going to miss out on all of that. That's uh you know, that would be a real disaster. That would be a real travesty. >> No, for sure. And and you know, you mentioned a bunch of reasons why. I I'll add one where, you know, I mentioned early on that we do a work experience program and we do workshops with young people as well. And I've just seen the the not quite inability, not let me it's not that bleak, but a habit of of people not reading instructions and not just reading once, but you know, rereading and just comprehending before asking a question. Had a few examples recently of someone replying to an email to ask a question that was in the email they replied to, right? >> Just that that that kind of thing. Um and it's just that you know yeah just the reading has so many I I you know I can't believe we have to say this but you know not every school has a library so here it goes reading is important for other things outside of like just entertainment as well and it has knock on effects as I >> uh as I mentioned. Um why do you think comics has that unique effect you know as a learning tool compared to other reading materials for young people in particular? Well, I think I mean I think they're just, you know, awesome. Comics are great. Uh they're really fun. They are obviously visual. So, uh you know, if you don't know a word or you don't know something, it's much easier to place than if you're uh reading a novel. >> And you know, I think fundamentally comics have always been awesome for kids to read and kids have always really liked reading them. I think the the difference maybe is this evolution and what we understand comics to be in the UK and beyond where it's saying okay well it's not just you know superheroes and not not that there's a lot that are great about superheroes like I say Marvel was one of my major influences growing up was Marvel comics but you know like it isn't just a superheroes or comic source anymore now it is manga it is epics it is uh you know uh French Franco Belgian adventures and there's a whole world out there that exists that maybe the kind of pessimists you're describing uh in the you know don't know about but actually kids know about it particularly and and and obviously we have to you know appreciate the massive rise in Japanese culture and anime that has influenced so much of you know popular culture in throughout Europe and the US now but I think that that means that people are much more open to new ideas and new styles. Whereas, you know, when I was a kid, I again really liked manga and anime and stuff, but I was definitely not not normal quote unquote for liking it. You know, maybe you did too. Um, but like it wasn't it wasn't like super common to be reading to be reading the Dragon Ball mangas when I was a kid, even though I did. And that and that's not the case anymore now, right? Like obviously these are these are major these are the major publishing IPs for teenagers. >> So times are certainly changing and I'm really happy that the literacy trust kind of have identified that you know that the that the times need to change and we need to kind of yeah like you know meet kids where they are uh in order to in order to foster this love of reading because otherwise you'll just you'll just miss it. >> Yeah. Lose people uh as well. And you know, you talked about working in Japan and and the differences there and because they, you know, one of the differences they accept comics like at all ages and and in the mainstream, but from a making perspective, just curious to know like what do you see from the production side's the difference between say manga and and western comics and how they tell stories and how they get things out like to the public? think yeah there's there's obviously huge huge differences um that are sort of readily apparent. I I I won't pretend to be I mean I'm a passionate you know professional in the space now who who is a you know hobbyist who loves comics and and manga and everything. I've I like the thing I did in Japan was the live action TV show. So I've never worked on the creation of a manga. So I I I can only report what I sort of hear from other people or my opinions. But I think I think uh you know the difference is is that and this kind of goes back to my previous point about understanding the market right because basically there's a huge market for manga in Japan domestically loads of Japanese read tons of manga and that is that creates the conditions for lots of manga to be created because you can create lots of manga and make money you know selling them and as a result there is lots of people doing it so the quality goes up because you have a lot of competition. and lots of artists and publishers competing with each other and the industry also becomes very professionalized. I think that um I don't know the US space as well um for for comics but I think uh yeah in the UK we you know we we obviously have very valiant uh heroes like yourself Nigel standing up to you know to to create your own sort of like you know initiative but in Japan they have a hundred years of professionalized massive labor forces that are proper big corporate studios publishers etc where you learn the trade from somebody else and you progress and on and on. So, so I say all that to say I think you know the manga industry is so multifaceted and they have so much being created that touches every facet of society. Inevitably, it's going to be a very deep and uh you know very deep uh uh well of content to draw from which you know isn't certainly isn't the same in the UK although there are obviously great comics created here. But like obviously the industry is a lot smaller and uh yeah I mean and then the French also do a great job at at creating longunning great comics but I and I may be speaking out of turn here because I don't actually know again the economics of their space as well but I suspect that they benefit from having you know government subsidies and support for artists which again is more of a cultural thing of like this is a great French art art form that needs to be protected and nurtured by the state which again isn't something it's which we don't have to the same degree as the UK in the UK as the French. Um I I'm also not an expert but I've um and when we at the children's media conference I was on a panel I was doing a it was my panel was my idea but um I was chairing a panel about anime just introducing it to that audience and the uh the person producing is at Disney and they were talking about some of the you know they've got their Dragon Striker series and talking about collaborations with French Studios and how it's yeah received there. So it just feels yeah just culturally different and the culture inform informs the commercial side of it to a certain extent as well. So yeah maybe a lot of is informing the culture which I guess with you know comics is part of that. So you know from where you are now what what can we look forward to like what's the what's the what's the road map? Well you know the the non-NDA version of the of the road map what can we expect? Well, so I would say we're very very keen right now on working with creators who create age appropriate all ages content. It does sounds like us. >> Yeah, exactly. You guys Yeah. Well, we're we're already talking, but other uh other people out there, you know, like as as as you know, Nigel, we've been talking about, you know, there there isn't necessarily a clear space for this content to have have its time in the sun. uh it isn't somewhere, you know, that if put on, you know, another major comics platform, it might not hit uh that the demo uh directly. So, we're very very uh and and it may be put next to something that is age inappropriate, which obviously isn't maybe isn't the objective. So, I think what you can look forward to from us, uh what we're looking for from your audience really is if there are creators in the UK or beyond that have great all ages material that work for, you know, kids and grown-ups. I think kids can read uh titles with mature, you know, themes just as long as they don't have >> as as long as it's not uh, you know, over, like I say, overtly sexualized or overtly violent. It can be mature and and a lot of the great, you know, books for middle-rade books are mature. So, you know, we're looking for creators who have content, have comic, Bible content in any format, manga, you know, French, Franco, Belgian, what have you. So yeah, we're looking for that kind of content to bring together the best indie creators in in one place to sit alongside some of the bigger publishers that we'll be announcing shortly. And yeah, we'll be uh and then the other thing is also collaborating with institutions and with uh you know educational educational uh groups. So, if you are involved in an educational group that wants a school or an afterchool activity or a sports club or anything where uh you kind of support what we're trying to do with getting kids into reading through comics, uh we'd love to love to hear from you. And uh yeah, in terms of what you can expect from us, uh we will be on the market soon enough and what I fervently hope comes to fruition is uh we can grow our app into something that kids around the UK can really uh you know continue to uh progress their love of reading through comics and ultimately provide new routes uh to distributing you know the right type of content to the right audience. Uh, which right now, you know, isn't isn't isn't as seamless as it could be, which is a shame because it's, uh, you know, it's it's not allowing the kids to engage in reading as much as >> as they want to. And so that's what we're trying to that's what we're trying to solve. >> No, that's that's great. And um yeah, no I I I guess I should have added that disclaimer at the beginning. But yeah, we are on you can find some all I think eventually all of our our stuff on the app cuz it's something that yeah, we agree with and again I mentioned like you know Tazzy's uh cuz you've like Tazzy dived into like the whole library uh system and and catch using that to catch manga. I I need to do the same actually cuz I unfortunately don't read as much as I did when I was younger and that's a sad indictment of me but going to work on that myself. So, >> well, I'll I'll tell you what, Nigel, just just do your best to get back into it because I also before we kind of went went all out for this, I I fell into the trap of not reading as much as I used to as well. And since uh since really kind of committing ourselves to this mission, I've made it a goal to read, you know, both comics and and novels again. And it's a a huge >> it's a huge benefit to my well-being. So, I'd really recommend it. >> Yeah. All right. So before we get to our guest pro tip, I want another question that we like to ask of all of our guests and you know we're talking stories here and then what makes a good story and I feel that every every one of us is a protagonist in our own story and and the the best protagonists have that have that goal that thing there after that vision of success. So for you Michael given given what you've done up to now and as you look ahead what does success look like to you and do you feel that you're there yet? I think definitely don't feel like I'm there yet. Working working hard to get there. I think if you'd asked me that a few years ago, I would have said, you know, winning an Emmy or getting some kind of mainstream industry recognition, you know, from some kind of group that I idolized when I was a kid would be it. And that would always be more than the financial side of things. But now I have to say I think that success is believing in what you're doing and believing that what you're doing is good for the world. And so in that manner actually I would say yes I actually I I tell a lie. I do feel successful because because uh in my career I've done things because I thought they were good business opportunities, not necessarily because they had a strong mission component. And I realize now that being fully aligned with what you want to do um and bringing good into the world is what success is really. >> I like that. I might have to copy and paste that and use that. >> Such a nice message. >> Yeah. All right. So, thank you for that. And um with that, we'll get into our guest advice. >> In each interview, we like to ask our guests to give some advice for aspiring creative professionals and practitioners. So, we've been talking comics, storytelling. Michael, what advice do you have for others listening who yeah might want to get into making comics and or just stories of of any kind and put them out into the world? >> I think my biggest advice uh would be just just start. So I know I said I know I said earlier you know it's important to understand the business context and it is particularly when you need to make money to support yourself but I think the most important thing is just to start and to just put it out there in whatever rudimentary form. I think so many great ideas um die on the cutting room floor because people just work on you know they they don't ever actually complete them or they don't put them out into the world. And I think again the great thing about comics is you can publish, you know, hopefully you'll be able to publish some comics in the future. You can publish on web two now. You can just publish on social media. Just get feedback. Start putting your work out there and start building a community of like-minded people. I think you know the Washington Post says dem democracy dies in darkness. Uh >> I think it's out now. I don't know what maybe. I'm not sure. Yeah, that's true. Might turn out lights, but >> but I would say that the for the creative industries, you know, great ideas die in development is probably a good uh a good a good good thing to say. >> If you're in the kind of creative sector and you're only focused and I've definitely fallen into this trap. If you're only focused on just like what the gatekeepers think of you from famous companies, you know, and it's like what does X person at Y studio think of my work? then that's going to really get to you pro probably unless you're very lucky and you you're amazing and you you you know you you you storm ahead. It's possible, but that for the most part does get to people I think because again they don't understand the full context and then they get stuck and then they feel less than or they start doing things they they fall out of the alignment I mentioned earlier because you start just doing work for money and then it's like well I didn't oh I didn't get into this to do this specific thing and then you feel dissatisfied. So I think I think the most important thing is just start and just get your work out there. I think any creative person would probably agree the most gratifying part of being creative is is when your work is shared with others anyway. >> No, I agree with that. That's good good advice. So listeners, uh let us know what you think if you're creating your own stories. We do meet a lot of young people who are trying to make that leap from not starting to starting. And yeah, it can be as easy as as that. But uh let us know at studio77.com. Before we wrap up for the episode, let's not forget about the bonus round. >> This is the part where we throw some follow-up questions or random questions that didn't quite fit anywhere else. And the question that immediately pops into my mind is, "What comics have caught your eye recently?" >> Well, so I think given our our focus on the kids market, I've been looking at a lot of kids comics and I was really impressed. So, so first of all, I have to tip my hat to Bunny versus Monkey and everyone at the Phoenix Comic. They have really forged the way for what feels like a renaissance in a way of British comics. So, Jamie Smart and then the whole theme of the Phoenix comic. Definitely uh Donut Squad, Bunny versus Monkey. Incredible stuff. I was really uh impressed in Frankfurt at the book fair with uh the the Philippines were the guest of honor this year. They had a lot of really great comics there for all ages and I I wasn't aware of the long and very interesting history of comics in the Philippines. Uh so I definitely recommend checking out um there's a there's a cool group out in the Philippines called Comic who come to the UK sometimes. They have some they're kind of an NGO that brings together individual Filipino creators. So I'd recommend checking uh checking them out. They're they're cool. >> Nice. And uh you mentioned like growing up with like superheroes and stuff. Who is your favorite superhero? >> It's a difficult difficult one to say. Um I would probably say for me the most impactful one. My favorite is Wolverine because he's the coolest. I was I I was very uh I was very uh influenced I think by Captain America. uh just his sort of you know doing good but then falling out of favor with the government and that whole plotline when he became nomad I think that was a really uh that was very in line with my thinking as a as a kid. >> Nice. And then so this is kind of like to do with libraries as my library is currently getting a refurb um which in some ways is annoying but uh otherwise uh is actually quite handy because it means they create a better delivery system for books. Anyway, uh what is the one feature that you wish every library had? >> Good question. I think it would having done some work in libraries around England. I think it would be great if there was when it came to comics more of an educational piece for parents to kind of understand all these benefits that are kind of second nature for us to discuss >> to your point Nigel that maybe if the immediate reaction is like oh it's not real reading or why don't you go read you know war in peace or whatever um I think I think some I'm not sure what this feature would look like but just something that differentiates or or it just lifts up the medium uh in a way that adults understand too would be really helpful. >> Yeah. Um and then finally, where are people able to find you online? >> Uh so yeah, you can follow us on uh comics uh comics at comicsapp um on Instagram and then you can join our newsletter at ww.comixit.app. So comicsapp comes up with what you need. >> Thank you so much. Um, yeah. >> Well, thank you guys so much for having me. I really enjoyed really enjoyed this. >> Yeah. No, appreciate like the the context and and since seeing your journey as well, where you where you come from and what you brought over like particularly the business uh side of it. So, look forward to seeing what comes of comics and yeah, just getting that uh those percentages up because that is that was some dire reading of the enjoyment of reading among young people. So, >> yeah, we can we can do better. We can do both. >> But but yeah, luckily uh you know um you know I am hopeful that we are successful in our mission. But of course you know it's you know heroes like you and myada that have been fighting the good fight uh for a long time that give us the grounding to to to have a chance. So congratulations to you guys for uh continuing to yeah you know have such a worthy me mission. >> No I yeah I appreciate that. It's it's yeah if you had if only had known how we started and none of that was there but you you start like you say to your point you start something and then you find a purpose and then it it makes sense looking back. So no I appreciate you saying that. >> I think I think yeah finding your purpose that's the that's the key advice. >> Find your purpose >> like you say. Yeah it does. It makes a difference. So >> there you go listeners that's your that's the mission. Find find a purpose. Um >> easy >> easy. Yes. >> Simple. Come back to us next week. when you've got it. >> So yeah, if um if listeners, if you've enjoyed this episode of Story Xtory, uh please do make sure you subscribe to the podcast wherever you can so you don't miss an episode. Also, give us a fivestar rating and review because that helps us reach new listeners and fans of story discussions. Uh if you couldn't already tell, we are also story creators. Uh so you can discover our manga universe online. You can get our titles there as well, including the latest Origins Against All Odds. if you're not able if you're not able to catch us at an upcoming event as well. And if you are, you can get signed as well. We did some signing uh over the weekend uh for some young girls in the um the festival of the girl. Don't forget to follow us online as well. Uh particularly on Twitch where we do our Studio 77 stuff. Uh we've also got our Discord as well. You can connect with us in between episodes. Uh yeah, and as we do things live on on Twitch, you can chat with us there too. And uh we're coming to the end of the year, but we do have some do I look like a gamer events. This is our video game representation campaign where we are promoting inclusion and diversity in the video games industry. So got a bunch of plans. We'll be at Comic-Con. We'll be at Square Enix. Uh we've got some online uh event to end the year as well. And then we are planning to do it all over again next year. So you can be involved with that. Whether it's the photo campaign or the events, get involved look like.com. And as for the podcast, we release new episodes on Thursdays, and those include creator interviews like these, video game discussions, and deep dives into stories across pop culture. You can always give us a shout directly. Our email address is studio77@mya.com. And our website with links to subscribe is my.com/storyxtory. So, thank you for tuning in and until next time, remember, don't judge a book by its cover or a person by their accent. I think I found