Mickey, by the end of this episode, what are we going to learn? >> We're going to know what's the best, what's the worst, what to use, what not to use. And this is just our non-professional professional opinion. >> Okay. So, this is the definitive guide to vibe coding apps, right? >> Yes. This is the ultimate tier list. And if this offends you, I apologize in advance. >> Okay. Any disclosures? Are you involved in any of these companies? >> Um um >> wait wait wait to the end. >> I'm actually no I'm not an investor in any. Um I do have a bias but I'll explain later the bias as we go on. >> Sounds good. I invested in Bolt in the last round. >> Actually funny story. I had the opportunity to invest in lovable but >> we both did. >> Yeah. But they hit me at a time where I was like I never have done I still haven't but like I was like I don't know what this is. Vive coding and then yeah they raised what some hundred billion at a six billion2 billion dollar valuation so >> crazy >> yeah you win some you lose some >> all right so let's get into it >> okay so lovable vzero bolt cloud code cursor codeex wind surf vibe code roor let's just hit right out the hip what's dtier >> I mean I see I see you touching windfur >> okay so I don't think wind surf is dtier here in terms of like tech, but with what happened with the team and like the founder sort of dipping and then Devon came scooped them up. It's one of those where like I'm sure the tech's good, but like is there any trust anymore? And I know two guys who work at Windsurf, awesome dudes, but I probably would never use Windsurf ever again. And respectfully, in the kindest of fashion, I would put it Dtier. >> By the way, all these tools are amazing. >> Yeah, they're great. they do with you know like again this is our non-professional professional opinion right I just personally wouldn't use wind surf uh simply for the fact that like again you know you you are sort of trusting the team behind said tool you're building with right and when I mean you're a founder like imagine just upping and leaving like the type of confidence that instills with your users investors and all that type of stuff so yeah I would respectfully u put wind surf at Dtier >> it's also very technical Right. >> Yes. Yes. So, and that's one thing too like we have this chart here and I would put wind surf at a very technical like you would have to be a technical person to get the best out of it. Now you have people who like Riley and others who are you know using these technical tools but if you speak to the team at Windsurf or even Curser they'll tell you yeah we're building for developers right their focus is developers. I actually spoke to someone who works at Cursor and I told him like, you know, a lot of like non-technical people are using your tools, so is that like changing how you guys build and like is that like sort of, you know, affecting your decisions? And he straight up was like, no. He's like, we're building for developers. He's like, it's cool to see non-developers use it, but the main demographic is developers, and from a team perspective and a business perspective, it makes sense, right? So, you could do it, but I just wouldn't use Windsurf. So, I put it Dtier. >> Okay. Okay. So, you're you're putting a D tier just because of the sort of how it played out. >> Yeah. Like realistically, I would maybe it would be between an A and a B for me. U cuz I used to I used Winter for a bit. It was pretty cool. >> Um and I if based on how it was back then, if I were to rate it, it'd be between an A and a B. Okay. >> So, but with all the business stuff putting it >> Yeah, I'm putting it in a D just cuz it's pretty complicated. >> Okay. Well, then let's talk about another complicated tool, cursor. >> Okay. I mean, to me, okay, I'll do this one. To me, I'm going to give it. It's either A tier or S tier. For me, well, so first, let's define it on the chart. It's definitely like you have to be technical to use it, right? Like being able to even open it up and fork a repo, npm run, npm install. Um, like these are like I don't expect a non-technical person to use it, but um, you know, if there's a will, there's a way. And I've seen people use it. So I agree if you are a vibe coder and non-technical person, you're going to experience pain. True. But what I will say about cursor versus windsurf, there's a lot more tutorials on cursor. >> So >> and and and that's one thing like so >> and a bigger community around cursor. >> Fair. And and and I'll I'll give you an example in like the webdev world like there are people who are prox.js and anti-nex.js. JS and one of the biggest pros to Nex.js JS you know people can argue technicalities is the community right especially even with react like let's go one level down react there are people who love react who hate react and the reason reacts one is because the community is so huge right so there's a lot of support there's a lot of documentation there are a lot of external packages that's why you go to any of these tools and you ask it make me a website it's going to use react right even the LLMs have picked it right so I I think that matters and for the audience sake I'll give cursor an A tier. I I can agree with that. But to me, this is like S+. >> Mhm. Okay, cool. Sam Alman, the co-founder of OpenAI, just said that it is the era of the idea guy, and he is not wrong. I think that right now is an incredible time to be building a startup. And if you listen to this podcast, chances are you think so, too. Now, I think that you can look at trends uh to basically figure out uh what are the startup ideas you should be building. So that's exactly why I built ideas browser.com. Every single day you're going to get a free startup idea in your inbox and it's all backed by high quality data trends. How we do it? People always ask. We use AI agents to go and search what are people looking for and what are they screaming for in terms of products that you should be building and then we hand it on a you know silver platter for you to go check out. Um, we do have a few paid plans that, you know, take it to the next level. Uh, give you more ideas, give you more AI agents and more almost like a chat GBT for ideas with it, but you can start for free ideabrowser.com. And if you're listening to this, I highly recommend it. What's next? Lovable. Lovable cloud. Lovable AI. So, I will >> So, explain what that is because not everyone >> Yeah. So basically the the pain point with lovable and bolt was really the integrations right you would need a backend and it was really difficult right you had to sign up and then you had to connect and copy API keys again these are trivial things to a developer to a non-developer this is a headache and what they've done from my understanding is they've abstracted all this stuff away so the moment you boot up a loable project I'm assuming they call APIs and they fetch all that information for you which makes it easier But I still have found people running to the claw codes and the codeexes and the cursors. So I will give lovable a B. >> How do you feel? >> >> Um, I I understand why you're giving it a B, you know, cuz you look at it from an engineering perspective and you're probably like, well, if I'm going to go and create a product, you know, yeah, maybe lovable is something I can get, you know, get going, >> a pretty page. But, um, I mean, from a prototyping perspective, if you know, >> I'll give you this. I think Vzero is better than lovable. Why do you say that? >> Um, Verscell's marketplace like their integrations, it gives you plethora of options, right? So, with for with Lovable, for example, they've sort of picked what backend you're going to use. It's superb, right? And there's pros and cons to that. Like the depending on the type of apps you're going to build, there's pros and cons to it. With Versel, you have all the type all different types of uh whatchamacallit backends. And here's where the bias comes in. Convix is going to be on the Versell marketplace soon. And I think Convix is the best market, best back end. And the reason why there's bias is because I work there now. Just full disclosure, cuz people going to be like, "Oh, he's talking about it cuz he works there." Well, I started working there cuz I like the product. >> Homie didn't look at the camera once until he started saying comx. Said the word convex and he was like, >> "Come >> cuz the number one." >> I'm PR trained. But um I personally think and I've for example um I had my wedding not too long ago and I tried using all the AI tools to build like our RSVP site and at some point all of them bricked except V 0. So even if I were just to like vibe code and just go through it, I personally think out of the VZ bolt and lovable I would pick V0. There's also templates and components that you can reuse with Vzero. >> Yes. Yes. And just like the integration with Versell, it's one of those things too where I I know this probably doesn't matter to a tier list, but I also sort of think about like the future of the PL like the the the tool we're using. And it's like it seems like Versel and Vzero are going to be very tight-knit. And that's like a bet I'm willing to make if I'm building a product that I want users to use. So, are you giving V 0 S tier? Is that what I'm hearing? >> If I was a vibe vibe coder, like let's say I did not know how to write code, I would maybe right there. I don't I don't think I'd give it like a Can we do an in between? >> Okay. So, I'll do it in in between. And this is definitely non uh technical friendly. Lovable, of course, is here as well. >> You sort of disagreed with lovable being a B tier, so we're >> No, no. Do you think it's A? >> I can give you like an A between B. >> That's what I think it really is. >> Okay. I'll give you an A between B. >> That's what I think it is. >> Bolt. I I I would put them on par with lovable. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Fair. See, not a biased investor. I respect that. >> Um, ROR. I personally haven't used ROR, so I will trust your judgment. I know they do mobile apps, >> right? So, there's this new class of vibe coding apps for literal mobile apps, and that's Vibe Code App >> uh by Riley, our friend Riley. >> Riley. >> Yeah. And ROR. >> Yes. >> Um I haven't played with both of them extensively, but played with them enough to know that um Vibe Code app is it really is the lovable for mobile apps. Um I find the Oh, actually there's also anything. >> Yes, I have seen anything. I maybe did one prompt and then I stopped just because I don't really do a lot of mobile app stuff, but I I I have realized and even um at Convex there's a lot of like these mobile app vibe coding platforms that are popping up. So this seems to be the >> and for a reason, right? Like I think that there's a lot of opportunity to to make money building apps for >> So you think mobile app like if I wanted to let's say I wanted to launch a consumer product you think you think mobile is better than web? >> I don't think it's better. I think it depends what you're building. I I just think that right now there's >> there's just a lot of opport you know you're seeing the calis of the world making millions of dollars a month with relatively simple apps with AI baked in. So, I think that there's going to be a lot of people who want to build something similar in different niches. And that's why I think that right now I'm actually coming up with a lot of mobile app ideas. And that's why >> Yeah. >> You see, maybe I'm just thinking too like I'm too much in my developer mind, but it to me it feels like downloading an app feels like too much commitment for me. Like I would really need a reason to download an app. But it seems like people are just downloading apps. Like they'll watch a Tik Tok video and they're like, "Yeah, I want to check this out." So, am I wrong or is like why the push for apps? Because everyone's doing an app now, a consumer app. >> Um, I think uh I'm the same way to be honest. >> Like it to me just feels like a lot of commitment. >> Yeah, it is a commitment. It is a commitment. But like if you are suffering from back pain and you're on TikTok and you searched, you know, back pain for tall people and then you see this ad that is just, hey, are you tall? And say, as a matter of fact, I'm 6' 3. Um, you know, well, we have this AI that helps you like reduce back pain by 35%. In this, you know, we become your back pain coach, >> you know, do you want to download this? And it gets me at that moment. I'm I might I might I might download it. >> And I I find that and like observing my wife has helped me realize social trends. People use Tik Tok like a search engine. >> Yes. >> So that that makes sense. So where do we put Vibe Code Ro anything if you've used anything? >> Um I think we can put them right be below lovable and bolt. >> So Btier solid. >> Btier solid. I think that you can use any of those and you know maybe one of them is slightly better on the day or slightly worse on the day >> but I think that they though what's going to happen I think is those are it's so relatively new like I think Ror launched like a couple months ago by code >> app I also remembered another one my boy Seth is a zero which is a mobile app one as well so yeah I think like to your point I haven't tested any of them one to give a definitive opinion But they're all fairly new and it's exciting stuff and I'm sure they have free tier so max it out. >> I think they're going to get better too over time, right? Do you know are they all built on expo? >> Um yes. I think from my understanding um I know Ror is. I'm pretty sure they are. Um it would be foolish for them to not be cuz you would want your app to be on both um Android and and you know App Store. And if you're doing a Swift app, then you're going to have to do the Google Play version. And that's two different code bases. So it would make sense for them to use Expo. And again, the ecosystem is growing. React is growing. There's a lot of money behind it. So I would think that they're all built on Expo. >> Cool. >> So that and here's the funny part. All these guys are probably using the same model underneath the hood. It's either going to be Claude or it's going to be Codeex, which is gaining a lot of hype. I'm interested to hear what you think about Codeex. >> I mean, you're the front-end developer. >> Um, >> little higher, I think. >> Little higher. Yes. So, I I seen a lot of hype with GPT5's codeex model, and I used it in cursor. It was okay. Like, it was pretty good, but I still think clot sonet 45 is the best coding model uh right now. So I would put codeex like right below cursor but above lovable and bolt. >> Mhm. And for non-technical people like should they be using codeex? >> Yes. Codeex does have like a web version. I would put it like somewhere around here. And there's to your point to like a cursor. There are a lot of videos on codecs cuz they seem to have gone both developer and non-developer attention. you can use like OpenAI's web-based cloud platform uh to run codec. So, I would put it like somewhere around here. >> Yeah, >> I still think there's a little feat like there's a little difficulty to it if you're non-technical, but where there's a will, there's a way. >> My take on Codeex is it's a bit Yeah, it's a little worse than Cursor, but it's gains like the most um most improved award. >> Yes, 100%. cuz it sucked in the beginning and like now people are comparing it to Claude like Claude Coat. So they've definitely Sam's cooking. >> Sam's cooking and I wouldn't bet against them. >> No. No. They have trillions of dollars or whatever but billions like >> Well, it's important, right? Cuz if you're going to pick something you right >> 100% right, you don't want to be wind surfed. Um >> I'm not mean. I swear >> I'm actually a nice guy. Yeah, >> I skip it. I couldn't help it. >> Yeah. >> Um, Cloud Code. >> Okay. All right. What do you think? >> I think Cursor's King, man. >> Wow. >> Cloud Code got nerfed. >> Cloud Code recently has got nerfed. Yes. Like if this was >> 4 weeks ago, it'd be like this. Like Cloud Code would be above S tier. But like now, like I don't know what's happening. Like I rather like it'll use the same model Claude Sonic 45. I'll get better results with it on cursor than with on cloud code. And the reason being is a lot of people think like, oh, if they're using the same model, it's the same output. But >> really, the difference maker is like, yes, everyone's using the same model, but then you build the agent on top. And basically what that means is like when you tell um when you prompt, hey, fix this error, right? The LLM doesn't have the power to read a file. You have to give it a tool that gives it the ability to read a file and then it reads that code and then it gives you the output and now you have to give it a tool to write that code, right? So it seems to me cursor's agent which is built on top of cloud code that gives it the ability to read, write, edit and all that type of stuff might actually be better than cloud cloud code cloud code, right? So I I think this is going to be a tugof-war, right? Like where cloud code will be better at one point, then cursor, then cloud code, then cursor, right? But as a non-technical person, um, if I if I would be frank, if I was a non-technical person, Cursor would be here, Claude Code would be here, and this would be the tier list. >> We're missing one one company here. >> Who? >> Replet. >> Are you an investor in Replet? >> No, I'm not an investor. >> Okay, I'm going to I'm going to ask a serious question. I don't know anyone who's used Replet. >> Mhm. >> But they're winning. >> >> I'm not even trying to be funny. >> Like I actually don't know a single soul who's used Replet. The one time I used Replet was back when >> I like this is like 3 years ago, four years ago. >> Yeah. >> And I needed to run some sort of like file, some Python script. >> So who uses Replet? >> I mean, I know two people who use Replet. >> Okay, so they're winning then. Okay, makes sense. >> Yeah. >> I don't know where I'd put Replet. I've never built anything fully with it. People seem to love it. They raised a bajillion dollars as well. Um, so I'll trust your discretion. >> I mean, they've I from what I understand, they have two modes with Replet. So, they have like your vibe code mode and then they have agent mode. So, you prompt it and it takes like 15 or 20 minutes and it goes and builds your app in instead of one minute or two minutes, which is cool. Um, that >> and so they built their own agent. Are they using like their own model? like are they developing their own models or >> I'm not sure like if they're developing their own models. It's hard to like say, right? >> Um but I have seen you know my friend Billy Howell actually uh talks a lot about Replet and I've seen some of the output on it and it's pretty impressive. Um >> so you're giving it an A? >> I'm giving it I'm putting it like lovable bolt replet. Yeah. So okay. So this is fair. So, we have V0ero close to in my opinion maybe a little in the A tier, but like if I was a vibe coder, I'd go for V 0. Codeex, Lovable Bolt. Actually, can I add one more? >> Yeah. >> Have you heard of Chef? >> No. >> Chef was actually built by Convex. But what's funny is the reason Chef was built and we built Chef was to show vibe coding platforms that if you use Convex as your backend, it's better. So we didn't build it to compete. One or two people worked on Chef and it's actually pretty good. Like off rip you'll get and I won't cuz people be like, "Oh, you're being biased." So I won't even show you could check it out. It's free. So Chef isn't meant to compete, but it was more so of a showcase for tools to use Convex as their back end. And a lot of the new tools like you have Vi, you have Bloom, like a lot of the new vibe coding platforms are all built on Convex because they saw this and they're like, "Oh, and we open source the repo too. Anyone can fork and build a vibe coding platform." And I non-bias would put Chef along these lines. The only thing is again, we're not trying to compete. So at some point these tools would get better. I like for example, I don't think there's a way for you to assign a domain on Chef, right? So, wasn't meant to impress users, but more so developers who are building these tools. Um, but yeah, I think I'm I'm pretty happy with this list. >> Okay. So, just to wrap this up, what advice do you have for non-technical people and technical people if they're trying to choose a vibe coding platform? >> Yeah. So, if you're technical, then man, it's like cursor or cloud code. like there's there's no other option in my opinion and that's simply because you're probably going to be steering the wheel anyway so you're not going to be vibe vibe coding. I know there's like uh open code by my uncle Dax. Um I haven't used it. Sorry. I should uh I hear a lot of developers talk uh you know highly of it. So like you're probably using one of these tools and you're probably steering the ship, right? So no advice to you. Just do what you're supposed to do. Now to nontechnical people um I think uh there has to be I've noticed after last couple months with all the new tools and all that stuff happening there has to be a mindset shift and the mindset shift is a lot of people get frustrated if in five prompts they don't build something and it's like respectfully the audacity to think you're going to build software that's fully functional that people are going to use and care about borderline pay you money I don't want to crash out and you think you could do it in five, six prompts when you know it takes time, it takes planning, it takes testing. There's alpha, there's beta, then there's a final version and then like software is art and you know, thank the Lord that there are tools that allow the non-technical person to build stuff, but we need audacity. We we need to treat it with care. Um, your first version doesn't work. You used, you know, you used lovable and it broke. Okay, so what? you'll use another tool and try again. Right? I think there needs to be a shift in understanding that software is difficult, websites are easy, you know, landing pages are easy, but software is difficult, especially ones people actually pay for, right? So, when we enter this mindset where like, okay, I'm going to build something. It's going to be awesome. It's going to take me time cuz I'm going to make it awesome. Then we'll be okay. But I'll see people be like, yeah, I prompted 10 times and it broke. Welcome to software development. >> >> So that's the one thing I would see like there are a lot of cool tutorials. I mean you bring up a lot of awesome people that show people like the mindset you know planning uh cursor has this one thing called plan mode which is pretty awesome and all that stuff is great and there's even tools that allow you to plan now and you know Chad GBT5 is great if you want to like just go back and forth and brainstorm. It's more about mindset now. A lot of non-technical people fail to realize that it really takes time to build something awesome. It's like building a business, right? Or if you're a gym, bro, it's like going to the gym. You know, great things take time. They take patient, take calculation. There's mistakes. Mistakes lead to experience. Experience leads to you being a better builder. So, take time and enjoy the ride. There you go. Well said. I want to say one last thing to end. Uh my recommendation to people is actually to follow all the founders of these businesses. So Vzero, Gummo, Codex, M Alman, Lovable Anton, Bolt is uh Eric, Eric, Simons, Replet, Amjad, etc., etc. Follow them and then see who you believe in. Like if you really connect with Eric, if you really connect with Amjad, if you really connect with Sam Alman, like then pick that platform >> facts cuz you are betting on someone. You're betting on a company, right? And this is why again like people who bet on wind surf got wind surfed. >> Yeah. >> God bless him. All right, that's the episode. Um Mickey, thanks for coming on. >> Greg, I appreciate you, man. It's been uh it's been a fun year. >> It's been a fun year. You've had a busy year. I'm going to include links to follow you. I know you're getting to 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, so we're trying. We're trying. >> Uh we'll we'll include that there. And and uh see you next time. >> Appreciate you, bro. Thank you again. Later.