We'll go on the record. This is a deposition of Mr. Leslie H. Wexner conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House Rule 10. Accordingly, House Rule 10 grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to conduct investigations of any matter at any time. On January 7th, 2026, the committee voted to approve a motion directing the chairman to authorize and issue a subpoena to you for a deposition. On January 23rd, 2026, Chairman Comr issued a subpoena for Mr. Wexner to appear today for a deposition and furtherance of the committee's investigation into the actions and investigations of Mr. Jeffrey Epstein and Miss Kain Maxwell. I will enter the subpoena and corresponding cover letter as it as exhibit one. The committee noticed the deposition for Mr. Wexner on February 9th, 2026. I will enter the notice for this deposition as exhibit two. copies of the exhibits for us. I got it. Can the witness please state his name and spell his last name for the record? >> Uh, Lesley Li HX Ner. >> Thank you. My name is Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reforms rules, you are allowed to have a council present to advise you during this deposition. Do you have a council representing you in a personal capacity present with you today? >> Yes. >> Will council please identify themselves for the record? >> Michael Levy of Ellerman and Zen Levy on behalf of Mr. Wexner. >> Elizabeth Martin with Ellerman and Zen Levy for Mr. Wexner. and Matthew Ziger from Ziger tickets and little on behalf of Mr. Webster. >> For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation? >> Sorry, Congresswoman from Phoenix, Arizona. >> Committee. >> Thank you all. Mr. Waxer, before we we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this deposition. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for an hour and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for an hour if they choose. To the extent members have questions for the witnesses or witness, they will be propounded during their sides respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with council. your council is speaking and when members or staff are speaking during the opposing sides round of questions, we will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand? >> I think so. >> There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the interview. For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer. and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this deposition, please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record non-verbal answers such as nodding or shaking your head. So, it is important that you answer each question with an audible verbal answer. Do you understand? >> Yes, I do. >> Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically. Minor minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically. Do you understand? >> Yes. >> We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible. So, we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add context to or rephrase our questions. We ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words or details. You should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of the conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of the conversations that you do recall. Do you understand? >> I think I do. You are required by law to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this deposition. Do you understand? >> Yes. >> If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal prosecution, including but not limited to perjury. Do you understand? >> Yes. >> This includes both knowingly providing false testimony, but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when in fact you do. Do you understand? >> Yes, of course. >> Furthermore, you cannot tell halftruths or exclude information necessary to make the statements accurate. You are required to provide all information that would make your response truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand? >> Yes. >> Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview? >> No. Please note if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today that assertion must comply with the rules of the committee on oversight and government reform. Pursuant to that committee rule 16C1 states for the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements. Witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted in the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or or appearance. For the purposes of this deposition, objections must be stated concisely and in a non-argumentative and non-suggestive manner. If the witness refuses to answer a question to preserve a privilege, the committee may seek a ruling from the chair. If the chair overrules any such objection, the witness shall be ordered to answer. If the witness continues to refuse to answer a question despite being ordered to do so, the witness may be subject to sanction. Do you understand? >> Yes. Ordinarily, we take a fivem minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know and we will be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take a break. Do you understand? >> Yes. Finally, I will note for everyone here today that the contents of what we discuss in the deposition is confidential under the House Deposition Regulation. Under the rules, the chairman and ranking minority members shall consult before any release of testimony or transcripts including portions thereof. This means it is a violation of House and committee rules to disclose contents of this deposition prior to its official release. For this reason, the market exhibits that we will use today will remain with the court reporter so that so that they can go into the official transcript and any copies of those exhibits will be kept at the table or returned to us when we wrap up. Can the reporter please swear in the witness? >> Will you raise your right hand for me, please? Do you solemnly declare and affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Absolutely. >> Do you have any questions before we begin? >> I'd like a cup of hot coffee. >> You mind? No, someone could get it, but >> we can go off the record. >> We will go back on the record. Uh, another member of Congress joined. Can he please identify himself for the record? >> Dave, California. Thank you for being here. Dave man out of California. >> Dave, >> I'm sorry. >> Dave Men. >> Oh, >> California 47. >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> The time reads 10:17 and the majority's time will begin now. >> Mr. Waxner, is it true that you submitted a statement to the committee this morning? Yes, I did. >> I will now enter as exhibit one. The statement of Leslie H. >> It's exhibit three because you've >> Oh, exhibit three, excuse me. Statement of Leslie H. Wexner submitted to Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, February 18th, 2026. Mr. Wexner, let's start by briefly discussing your education and experience. Where did you attend undergraduate school? >> The Ohio State University. >> And what degree did you graduate with? >> Uh, business degree. >> And I know you had a long career, but can you briefly summarize your professional career for the committee? Well, I was raised in a very poor family and we had no money and I had an aunt Ida and she gave me loan to me her life savings which was $5,000 and on the understanding I could put it in the bank so it appeared that I'd have money and I could borrow money from a bank and I opened a store in 1963 and I opened a store every year for the next five or six years and so by 1969 I had six force uh took that company public not to raise money because it was remarkably successful and I wanted the associates of the business to own a piece of the business. So I I gave stock to virtually everybody that worked in the stores and the back rooms and cleaning people. I mean just I'm very proud of that. and then uh open more stores and more stores and figured out at one point that there was a limit to how many limited stores I could open. So I opened it invented a second business called Express and open up more and more stores. And what the business then turned into was a the largest multi-ivision fashion specialty business in the world. Uh and in hindsight I'm very I kind of invented multi storere national and international store retailing and um just a remarkable as I look back I don't know how I did it but probably in my lifetime I opened 10,000 stores around the world probably 20 different brands. Uh so that's what I did. Um >> >> And that's what I did in business. I started to tell you what I do personally, but that's another story. Thank you. Let's move on to your relationship with Mr. Absene. When did you first meet Jeffrey Absene? Probably 35 years ago. 40 years ago, I don't remember exactly. um and met him through friends. >> Approximately what year would you have met him? >> Probably between 80 and 85. I I don't remember. >> And how did you first come to meet Mr. Absene? >> Was really by accident. Um, I was friend with with a a couple, Bob and Wendy Meister, and uh, I was in Florida and I'd never been to Florida. So, they were driving me around showing me what South Florida looked like and pasted uh, and they showed me the Breakers Hotel and they were just driving around the driveway and they Bob stopped the car and he said, "There's somebody you should meet." uh a really smart, savvy guy named Jeffrey Ebstton. And so they stopped the car. I was sitting in the back seat and they introduced me to Jeffrey and we drove off. That was about it. >> So at that time you had no knowledge of Mr. Epstein until Mr. Meer introduced you to him. >> Never heard of him, never saw him, never met him. >> Did Mr. Meer ever raise any concerns about Mr. Epstein? No. Um, he didn't. >> And you meet him in Florida. What's your first impression of Mr. Epstein, kind of a medium, dark-haired guy. I I I don't remember saying much more. Hello, shaking his hands or maybe nodding from the backseat of the car. >> What was your first impression of Mr. Reps? He was just a guy about medium height and with dark hair >> at that time. Did you have any understanding of what he did for work? >> No. >> Did you understand Mr. Epstein to already be wealthy when you met him? >> No. At this time, I would like to introduce what will be marked as majority exhibit 4. This is a Vanity Fair article entitled Inside Jeffrey Epstein's Bond with Les Wexner from 2021. The article reports on the origins of your your relationship with Mr. Wexner. One more. >> I'll note a hearsay objection for the record. >> I'm sorry. >> I'll note a hearsay objection for the record. Well, um, for the for the record here, federalist residents do not apply to congressional definitions. >> I'm noting my objection. I'm not instructing him not to answer. I'm noting that this is hearsay. That's all. >> Okay. >> So, in the article, it says that you met EP Epstein sometime around 1986. Uh, consistent with your testimony today, it says that you were introduced by Mr. Master. >> Do you agree with the article's characterization? >> I don't know. I remember seeing the article. >> Do you agree with the article's characterization that you met Mr. Epstein through Mr. Mer? >> Objection. What character? He said he didn't read it. What characterization are you referring to? go off the record. >> So, you previously testified that Mr. Mer introduced you to Epstein. Is that right? >> Meister >> Meer. >> Bob and Wendy introduced me to Jeffrey Epstein. >> And at that time, what was your relationship with Bob and Wendy Meister? Well, I met Bob because he was a a national international insurance broker and um they had our business insurance business and Bob wanted me to meet his wife and Bob and Wendy became friends. Did you trust Mr. Meister with advice? Well, I I trusted him with insurance advice because that's what he did. He was a vi he was the vice chairman of an international insurance company, but I didn't trust him like for business advice or any anything beyond the scope of of was professionalist. I want to direct your attention to page nine of the article. And we're specifically looking at the paragraph, the sixth paragraph from the bottom. It starts in September 1997. And when you're ready, I'll read the relevant just I I just read that paragraph. It reads, "In September 1997, Wexner celebrated his 60th birthday with a dinner at his Ohio estate. Meer says he used the occasion to once again tell Wexner how untrustworthy Epstein was. My wife and I told him and Abigail Abigail hundreds of times to stay away from Epstein." Mr. Wexner, do you recall this occurring? >> Objection. Double here. Say, >> are you directing your witness to not the witness to answer the question? >> No, no, no. I I will direct the witness not to answer if that's my intent. I'm just raising an objection for the record. I I need to understand this. I never had a birthday party for myself. In fact, I never had birthday parties. My mom and dad just didn't do that. And Abigail's been great because every milestone birthday has been a surprise party. And I think I don't remember for sure but the 60th birthday party if Senator Lieberman was there and Marshall Rose was there, Shimone Perez was there, John Glenn was there, Max Fischer was there and I don't think much was there. >> Let me ask you a different thing. So he So he never said this. He wasn't there and did never said this. >> Let me ask you a different question, Mr. Lex. Lexner, do you do you recall Mr. Meer and his wife repeatedly warning you to stay away from Epstein? >> Never. >> I want to now direct your attention to the fifth page. And we are looking at the six full paragraph. >> You want to start soon after? >> Yes. I assume it's okay for me to help him identify the right paragraph. >> Yes. >> Yeah, I just read it. For the record, it reads, "Soon after introducing Wexter and Epstein, Meer started hearing disturbing stories about Epstein sexual proclivities. Think of whatever the worst thing anyone could do is, and Epstein did them all," Meer said. Did Meister ever express concerns related to Mr. Epstein's sexual proivities? >> Objection. Double hearsay. He answered, >> "Never." The very next sentence continues, "Mr. Epste showed up unannounced at Meiser's Park Avenue apartment with five model models for Meiser's sexual entertainment. Epstein thought he was bringing me a gift according to Mr. Meiser." Were you aware of this occurring? >> Objection. Double hearsay. >> No. >> Did Mr. Epstein ever present you with women for your sexual entertainment? >> Absolutely not. Mr. Wexner, >> are we done? Are we done with that exhibit? >> We are. >> Mr. Wexner, at any time did Jeffrey Epstein ever inform or represent to you that he was a part of any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States? >> Absolutely not. >> Did you ever learn that he was involved with any intelligence service? >> Never. Let's move on to talking about Miss Maxwell. When did you first meet Gla Maxwell? Probably about the time that I got engaged to Abigail. So, must have been about 1990. And do you recall how you met Miss Maxwell? >> Well, Jeffrey wanted me to meet the person he was going to marry and I was engaged to Abigail and period. >> Do you have any recollection of where you met Miss Maxwell? >> No. >> And based on your testimony, is it fair to say that Mr. Absene introduce you to Maxwell? >> Absolutely. Yeah, sure. >> And you mentioned it previously, but what was your understanding of Miss Maxwell's relationship to Mr. Epstein? >> They they dated, they were in love, they were going to get married. >> Were they would do you characterize it as a monogous relationship? >> I thought so. So during this period, you had no knowledge of Mr. Epstein ever having any relationship with any man or woman besides Miss Maxwell? >> No. No. Didn't. >> How would you characterize your relationship with Miss Maxwell? Like Wendy Meister was Bob's wife and we were friendly and friends. Uh I met Galan Maxwell because she was Jeffy's girlfriend fiance. It never went beyond that. I knew she was smart. I think she was an honors graduate of Cambridge or something. So she was like, you know, spoke with an English accent. I I thought he was really lucky cuz he finally met somebody that was really smart, nice. >> And you said that Miss Maxwell was Epstein's fiance. So, it was your understanding that they were engaged to to be married. >> I don't remember if they were engaged to be married or they were planning to get married, but I was engaged and they talked about they were going to get married. So, I I don't know if it was engagement or just they both agreed. >> During your relationship with Miss Maxwell, how often did you see her? >> Very few times. Mr. Mr. Wexner, the committee is investigating the circumstances surrounding Mr. Epstein and Miss Maxwell and the trafficking of young women, trafficking and sexual abuse of young women or girls. Did Miss Maxwell ever introduce you to any young woman or girl? >> No, I don't think she ever introduced me to to any female or man. Did Miss Maxwell ever ask you to introduce a young woman or girl to your friends or associates? >> No. >> Did you ever introduce any young woman or girl that you met through Miss Maxwell to any of your friends or associates? >> Objection assumes in fact not in evidence. >> You're kind of disgraceed to answer the question. >> That's fine. question. I think the answer is no. But let's >> Did you ever introduce any woman or girl that you met through Miss Maxwell to any of your friends or associates? >> No. Never. >> Did Miss Maxwell ever visit your home in New Albany, Ohio? >> I don't recall. >> >> We're going to discuss your business relationship with Mr. Epstein in more detail later, but did Miss Maxwell ever play a role in your business relationship with Epstein? >> Um, never. None. During your relationship with Miss Maxwell, did she ever represent or inform you that she was a part of any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States? >> No. >> Did you ever meet Galileain's father, Robert Maxwell? >> No. When did you hire Mr. Epstein to officially work for you? >> I think it was about the mid 80s. Do you have any recollection of how long you knew Mr. Epstein prior to you hiring him? Not specifically a maybe I met him and that is it in the car and maybe it was six months or a year later that I asked Bob about I needed somebody to help me and I think he said you did you talk to Jeffrey Epstein I think so I'm guessing from when I met him first to actually having a conversation was probably a Just to clarify, that's not actually the time that you hired him, though. That's the time you had the conversation. >> Yeah. I don't >> Yes, but that's that's >> for the record. You don't recall the exact date that you hired him? >> No, I don't. >> Another member of Congress has joined us. May she can she please introduce herself for the record? >> Yeah. I represent the 12th Congressional District in Michigan. >> Just a little bit. is trying. I keep telling him he's trying. >> Speak more. >> Would help better if I sat more in the middle. >> I mean, we have the video set up. >> Okay, I'll try to speak louder if I'll if I'm not speaking. If you ra if you wave or something, it'll remind me. >> Mr. Waxner, would you characterize your relationship with Mr. Epstein, at least initially, to be solely business related? >> Yes. Did you at any time ever consider him to be a close friend? >> No. >> How often did you interact with Mr. Epstein throughout your relationship? probably a lot of phone conversations but meetings um didn't see him much you know most of the stuff I was traveling a lot um because of business so and it was erratic he might call three times in an hour and I'd talk to him for three months that's how I remember When you were interacting with Mr. Epstein, did you enjoy spending time with him? >> Enjoyment was fun. No, it was work. >> Can you elaborate on that? What were the nature of your interactions with Mr. Epsian? like professional, you know, this is what's going on. Have you paid this bill? Do you know about that? Or, you know, I took an inventory of your house and no one ever taken an inventory of your furniture. Do you know how much furniture you have? And it was like, no, I never thought about it. Well, I you should know that I have an inventory. Things are buttoned up. Um it it was like what an off um I don't think how can I explain it? Uh, it's like people talk about family offices and I'd managed all my stuff or my admin paid my bills because I was so busy and and I realized it was a complexity of my personal life and somebody had to just do this stuff because it wasn't getting done properly. And so it was like um you know professional I guess what a fiduciary would do um more than what just your accountant would do or your lawyer would do and something was I thought was unfair for my secretary to do. >> And you testified that you had at times he would call you three times a day. Is that a fair characterization of your testimony? No, what I'm saying is that he would call me three times, maybe in an hour. He wanted to tell me something about what he was doing or would ask me a question about taxes so I could under he could understand what he was preparing and but he might not call me for three months, maybe six months. I wouldn't pay attention. It wasn't important at the time. >> Mr. Wesner, is it your testimony today that your conversations with Mr. have seen were predominantly focused on your business relationship with him. >> That'd be very accurate. That would be very accurate. >> What common interest did you share with Mr. Epstein outside of work? >> None. >> So, you didn't have any personal relationship with Mr. Epstein whatsoever? I I don't think I ever went to lunch or dinner or a movie or had a cup of coffee with Jeffrey. Uh, and but I thought about that recently and I'd say the same thing about my attorney. I'd never been to his office, my current attorney, who's been our family attorney for 30 years. like how how could you I mean I can't explain to myself how I could have an attorney who lives in Columbus who was my personal attorney and I'm friendly with and never visited his office. I just uh my my focus was on my business and my focus was on community before my family. That is before my family existed. >> Until your family not >> until Yeah, that's a better way of phrasing it. This is a general question, but approximately how many years were you uh associate associated with Mr. Epstein? >> I I don't recall exactly. And to be clear, you at no point ever considered him to be a friend? No, I I didn't see Jeffrey as a friend. I saw Jeffrey as I see Matt, my attorney, is friend. We're friendly, but we're not friends. Um, I mean, obviously someone that worked for you in a trust position you're friendly with, like you're not in in a hostile adversarial argumentative position with the people that are advising you. It's been reported repeatedly that you were close friends with Mr. Epstein. Why do you think people would come to that conclusion? >> Objection. Hear sight. >> Speculation cuz he would tell him that. But that he told me he was friends. If you told me that you were friends with Bill Clinton, I would believe it. Or if anybody told me somebody was a friend, I would believe it. So I I think the perspective that I have now and I think what's really important for this group to understand is that as I look back at it I was conned by the world Olympic all-time con artist. And when and and you look at I read in the news all the people he knew royalty kings princes and all that an incredible con artist. >> Do you think Mr. Epstein thought you two to be friends? >> Objection. >> I don't know what he thought. When did you learn that the Palm Beach Police Department was investigating Mr. Epstein? >> I hope you call. >> Mr. Epstein was convicted in 2008. Did you maintain any contact with Mr. Epstein after his plea deal? as I recall concommently with Abigail taking over the finances and my wife is a M&A lawyer. She worked for Davis Pulk. She's really smart and she took over the finances and kind of concommently she was discovering that he would stole money from us and concommently finding out about these accusations and the criminal activity that he pursued and when we when I when we found out about it we severed relationships with him immediately. >> Mr. Rexer, I I appreciate the context, but when was the last time you were in contact with Mr. Epstein? >> I have no rec no no recall. Did you have any contact with Mr. Epstein after 2008? >> What happened in 2008 again? >> Mr. Absene uh entered a plea deal uh related to the solicitation of minors or Oh, okay. >> Never never talked to him, never saw him. As far as I was concerned, once we knew how bad he was, he was dead. >> Did Mr. Epsy ever ask you for personal favors of any kind? >> >> Not that I recall. >> Did you ever ask Mr. Epstein for personal favors of any kind? >> No. >> How involved was Mr. Epstein in your personal life? I didn't say to think about that. No, not at all really. Like I think he met Abigail after we were engaged and he didn't know we were going to be engaged because I didn't discuss my personal life with him. um or anything. uh just he was kind of the business manager of my personal affairs and you know at the time I probably had 20 CEOs reporting to me and so I had business relation I was used to having business relationships with people whether it's attorneys accountants investment banks that we were doing business with at commercial banks but I never had personal relations ships with people that I worked with. I was pretty much a loner. >> Is it true that Mr. Epstein oversaw your prenuptual agreement? >> I don't recall that I had one. >> If you did, would you consider that to be a business transaction between you and Mr. Epstein? >> Objection calls for speculation, but you can answer. If I had one, I would guess I would have talked to my attorney. >> Was Mr. Absian involved in hiring personal staff? I I think the answer is none. I can't I can't remember anybody that he would have met that that I hired personally. I'm personally I'm thinking also business and household staff, people like that. I can't think an exception. We will discuss your financial relationship with Mr. Epste in greater detail later, but broadly, did Mr. Epstein ever ask you for any financial favors? >> No. >> >> Let's talk about your property here in New Albany. When did you first buy new the New Albany property? probably in the early mid80s I started buying property as land. This was what you saw today if you drove around me. This was all farmland. The where the house was was Assad farm. So it was just in the country. >> Did Mr. Absene play any role in the acquisition of the property? >> No. >> Did he play any role in the development of New Albany? >> Oh, no. >> On your property, would you often conduct business meetings? >> Would he? >> Would you? W >> with whom? >> With anyone he's doing business with. >> Okay. Including Elbrands. >> Yes. Okay. I think the only business meetings we ever had in the house were business meetings in Elbrand's community meetings, some university meetings, but no, I don't think we ever had an like a New Albany meeting as a business in the house. We'd have it at the New Albany office. Mr. Wexner, did you ever meet with, socialize with, or otherwise engage with Jeffrey Epstein at your new Albany, Ohio home? >> Say that again. >> Did you ever meet with, socialize with, or otherwise engage with Jeffrey Epstein at your new Albany home? >> I'm sure he was in the house, but I I can't remember a specific time. I I don't remember setting meetings with Jeffrey. Uh, most of the business I had with him was over the phone. Was over the phone. >> Do you most of the business was over the phone? >> Do you have any recollection of when he first visited the property? >> No. >> And do you have any recollection of how often he would visit the property? >> No. So, is it your testimony today that you would not have been aware of every time you visited the property here in New Albany? >> Without a question, I wouldn't have known. Yeah. Something I would explain to you. It's like that I wonder about now. Like Jeffrey might call the office and my admin would say to him, "Mr. Epstein's on the phone. He has to talk to you right away." And I pick up the phone say, "What is it?" And he'd say, "Well, I'm in Switzerland talking to a Swiss bank about something." And and he'd try to explain it to me. He said, "You wouldn't understand the transaction. It's really complex, but uh I'm really busy, but I needed to tell you this or know that." and I'd say him in the middle of a meeting and I'd hang up and then as I said earlier 15 minutes later he might call me back and I'd look at it now and say he was probably in bed in New York. I didn't know where the hell he was. Were you aware that Mr. Epstein stayed on your property? >> I know he bought Jack Kesler's house but I don't know when he was there and that wasn't on your property. No, that's the my neighbor's property, my my business partner in New Alby's friend or his house, right? Were you aware that Mr. Epstein stayed at one of your guest house on the property? >> No, that the house he stayed at was Jack Kesler's house, which is an adjacent property. It's about a half mile away. >> >> Mr. Wexner, Epstein survivor, Maria Farmer, was reportedly brought to the guest house located on your property in 1996. >> Objection. He's already told you it wasn't on his property. >> I am only uh I'm I am uh bringing up the recollection of an Epstein survivor. For the record, your client is welcome to provide a statement. So again, Maria Farmer was reportedly brought to the guest house in 1996. She stayed there for a summer and claimed she was assaulted there by Mr. Epste and Miss Maxwell. Mr. Wexner, do you recall who Maria Farmer is? >> I know her name from the press. >> Did you ever meet Maria Farmer? >> Never. Is it your testimony today that you do not know whether Maria Farmers ever stayed on your property? >> That would be correct. >> Do you have any reason to not believe Maria Farmer's account of being abused by Jeffrey Epstein on your property? >> Objection. On his property. Let me be sure I answer this correctly. I never met her. Didn't know she was here. Didn't know she was abused. You have a large staff that works on your property in New Albany. The reason I'm laughing, I don't There's a a lot of people around, but I don't know how many. >> Can you estimate how many people work are working on the property at any given time? >> 20. >> Do you have private security on the property? I've had private security since 1975. >> Are you aware of allegations that security staff on the property stayed Maria Farmer until her family was able to pick her up? >> I didn't know she was here, so I could I didn't I didn't know her. I didn't know she was here, so I didn't know about her. Pardon me. And I believe that you testified to this earlier, but to your recollection, did Mr. Epstein personally own property near your home? He bought the house from Jack. So half a mile away if that's near. >> Was that the address at the 7500 block of King George Drive? >> I don't know that address. Are you aware of the entity New Albany Company LLC? >> I think that's what we call the New Albony Company. >> Why was this LLC organized? because it made business sense. >> What was the LLC used for? >> I would assume was for the New Albony project. >> Was Jeffrey Epstein involved with this entity? >> Only to the degree as um fiduciary financial advisor would be as Dennis Hirs was. was a complex project and you know if you would the family office would look at it >> to be clear the LLC was used to develop surrounding properties in New Albany. >> I don't know that. I I would assume that it's in an LLC or it could be the New Albany Company or Corp or Inc. I don't really know that. How would Jeffrey Epstein travel to New Albany in the beginning of your relationship with him? >> I would assume he flew and either that he took the train or drove. >> Did he fly on your plane? >> Very rarely. >> When he did fly on your plane, did you charge him for using it? I don't think so. >> Do you have any recollection of when you first would have started providing flights to Mr. Epstein? >> I think that's kind of a trick question. I don't think I ever provided flights for Mr. Epstein. >> And you testified that he very rarely flew on your airplane. Can you elaborate on that? >> The only time I really remember that I mentioned earlier, my wife would have surprise parties. And so I get on the airplane and there'd be acquaintances, you know, friends, you know. Um, and I was always shocked who was there or some people might fly to wherever we were the party was, which was always a surprise to me. And then some of guest friends would be at the party when I got there and that was another surprise. So I I don't remember specifics. >> So Mr. Epstein would have been invited to surprise parties for you >> obviously. So because he was there. >> You testified earlier that you didn't consider him a friend. Do you invite people you don't consider to be friends to surprise parties? >> Objection assumes that he invited them. >> Do you need to answer that again? >> Why would Mr. Epstein have been invited to these surprise parties? >> My wife would have invited him. >> Why do you think your wife would have invited him? >> Because he was our financial advisor. Did your wife consider him a friend? >> No, I think so. >> Can we take a quick break? >> Yes, we can go off the record. >> Oh, we need to wait. >> Oh, sorry. Excuse me. We'll go off the record. >> We can go back on the record. >> The time is 11:10. We took a short break for the witness to confer with counsel. We have approximately 15 minutes left in the majority's hour. We understand that the witness has would like to make a statement of clarification. >> Yeah, I think I I was inaccurate in that I remember Jeffrey being on a plane at a surprise birthday party, but I don't remember him being at the party because I think you asked the question at the party and then way where did he go? I I don't remember him being at the party. I can remember being on the plane. >> You bring up the surprise party. Do you On the plane, do you recall where the plane was going? >> The surprise party wasn't on the plane. >> Where was this surprise party? >> I don't There were a bunch of them and I don't I don't remember specifically which one it was. >> Were you on every flight with Miss Epstein when you traveled on your plane? Objection. How's he going to How's he supposed to know that? >> If if he doesn't, he's welcome to specify that he doesn't know. >> So the Say the question again. >> Would Mr. Epstein ever use your plane while you were not present? >> Never. >> Did Mr. Epstein have to ask you for permission to use his plane or use your plane? >> He would have, but he never did. In regards to using your plane, would you >> It wasn't my plane. It was the businesses business had an aircraft. We didn't own our own airplane till maybe 15 or 20 years ago. And he wasn't on that plane either. Do you recall Miss Maxwell uh being present when you were traveling on your company's plane? >> No. >> Do you recall if Mr. Epstein would bring other guests besides Miss Maxwell while traveling on your company's plane? >> No. There's an address at the 7500 block of King George Drive. Are you familiar with that property? >> No, not familiar with that address. >> >> Mr. Mr. Waxner, how did Mr. Epstein act towards women or girls around him? >> In in his presence or >> in your presence? >> Yes. >> I I guess the answer would be kind of normal and nice. would, you know, he would like send my secretary or admin flowers for her birthday. Uh, courteous, I would say. >> Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of any kind with young women or girls? >> Absolutely not. >> Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein sexually abuse young women or girls? >> Absolutely not. >> Did you ever witness Mr. Epste receive massages from young women or girls? >> Absolutely not. >> Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss sexual acts of any kind with you? >> No. >> Did he ever discuss receiving massages? >> Yes. >> What were the nature of those conversations? >> He told me massage therapy was great and I should get massages. >> Did he ever discuss who he was receiving massages from? >> No. So, it is your testimony today that you don't recall him ever saying anything about receiving massages from young women or girls? >> Absolutely not. >> We're absolutely I'm agreeing with you. Didn't do that. >> Was it common for Epstein to bring young women or girls to any other place where the two of you would meet? >> Never. >> Did Mr. Epstein ever request that you bring Victoria's Secret models to events at your home? >> No. And no Victoria's Secret models ever came to my home, even for business purpose. Didn't >> talk about one exception. You seen >> Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. There's one exception. Uh my wife had a um for about 20 years a horse show here for charity and one of the models husband was a polo player and I don't know how they showed up as a couple and he gave either me or my wife a polo horse which was I don't ride and Abigail wasn't interested in a polo horse so that would been the only exception. Did Mr. Epste ever request that you introduce him to Victoria Secret Models? >> Never. >> And I just want to clarify your testimony earlier, but did you ever receive any massages from any young woman or girl brought to you or by or introduced to you by Mr. Epstein? >> Never. We discussed Mr. Epstein's arrest previously, but I would like to return to it just to make sure the record is clear. In 2005, police in Palm Beach, Florida began investigating Epstein. In July 2006, Epstein was arrested for the first time for soliciting prostitution for minors. Prior to Mr. Epstein's arrest, were you aware of any investigation into Mr. Epstein? >> Not that I recall. >> When did you become aware of an investigation into Mr. Epstein? Probably whenever it was in the press. I don't know when that was. >> And you mentioned the press. Was there anyone that was a part of your business that may have alerted you to his arrest? >> Could have been. >> And for the record, did you have any knowledge of illegal activity by Mr. Epstein prior to his arrest in 2006? The only I recall is my chief of staff told me uh and I don't know he knew press whether it was the newspapers or radio or TV that um that Jeffrey had been accused or a woman was suing him for uh I being aggressive. And I I remember calling him and saying, "What the hell is this?" And he said, I was being shaken down and by a hooker. And I believed him. And I think the followup that conversation was, "I hope you know you're not bullshitting me because if it is, you know, the party's over." He said, "Absolutely not. You think I'm stupid?" which is probably what I would say to attorney or say to you or anybody that I worked with. If you do something off, you're out. >> So, after you had that initial conversation with him, did you discuss the allegations as as um they were being investigated with Mr. Epstein? Excuse me. >> No, I don't think I discussed it. it was done, you know, and I believe that he wasn't stupid. >> And you mentioned your chief of staff. For the record, who is that? >> Uh, his name is Bruce Saul and, uh, I met him through an acquaintance. Answer the question. >> Okay. It's going to help if you ask answer the question that he asks. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. We'll all get out of here a lot faster. >> Did your chief of staff have any relationship with Mr. Epstein? >> Other than, you know, how do I answer? I don't none except if he would call him and I wouldn't know, you know, everybody knew where I was all the time. So, if somebody wanted to find me, would he call Bruce or call my admin? Where's Les? because I I've I try to be available to people, but I don't tell everybody where I am and where I'm going because it's traveling so much. So, it would be I would guess conversations. I'm speculating that those conversations might have happened. >> For the record, you were surprised by Mr. Epstein's arrest. >> Yes. >> Do you recall people around you being surprised by his arrest? >> Don't specifically recall. probably at the time they were, but I don't remember it. >> Do you recall whether anyone around you advised you that you should cut ties with Epstein after his arrest? >> I'm going to instruct you not to disclose any communications you had with your wife or your lawyers in answering that question. >> So, are you asserting for the record attorney client privilege and spouse? >> Correct. >> To be clear, the House not recognize common law privileges. And so if you are asserting that in order for him to not testify to those um in order to preserve that, we may discuss and may take that to the chairman for a ruling >> and and potentially may direct your client to answer those questions. >> That that's fine. The Supreme Court's also made clear that those privileges do exist in the congressional context. And I doubt very much that whatever his answer would be to this is that important, but I'm directing him to preserve those two privileges, those two wellrecoognized common law privileges. >> I forget the question. >> Go ahead, master. >> Um, did after Mr. Epstein's arrest, did anyone around you advise you to cut ties with Mr. Epstein? >> And and I'm going to again direct you to answer without discussing any communications you had with your wife or your lawyers in answering that question. So you can go ahead and answer. >> I'm confused again. Did anybody and the answer would be nobody. I can't remember anybody. Do you did you instruct your companies to do an internal review of your company's relationship with Mr. Epstein at this time? I probably would have, but I don't recall that. That would have been anything that was unourred that happened in the business around the business. I would always say this has to be investigated and I would always u in communities and business have the same attitude but but I don't specifically remember. >> Were you suspicious of any others around Mr. Epstein that they may have aided in the solicitation of minors for prostitution when you learned of his arrest. >> Can you repeat the question? >> Let me clarify. Mr. Epstein had individuals such as Maxwell, Sarah Kellen, among others who have been identified as potential co-conspirators. Were there any individuals that you understood to be affiliated with Mr. Epstein that you may have suspected to have aided in his crimes. >> No, because I don't recall any people around him and his business. My business was with him. I I don't know my attorney's admin or who his associates are. Miss Mr. Wexner, we're approaching the end of our hour. So, I will just ask you one final question before we take a break. With the benefit of hindsight, were there anything you witnessed or observed about Mr. Epstein that could have suggested he was trafficking and sexually abusing women? >> Absolutely not. I've asked myself that question over and over why I didn't see the there should have been a clue or something that I should have picked up on. There's nothing that I can recall, nothing, not even a clue of a clue. And I I think the reason in hindsight and I think for the understanding to get to the bottom of what Jeffrey did is to understand how great a Connie was because that's the explanation I have to myself. How how could I have never thought he was a thief? How could I never thought he was a pervert? You know, all the terrible things. Never clue. >> We will go off the record. We can go on the record. Good morning, Mr. Wexner. My name is I will be doing most of the questioning for the minority today. We appreciate your time. As you know, our conversation today will focus on your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. We'll touch on probably your financial and business relationship with him. We'll also discuss your personal relationship with him. You already discussed with our colleagues the way that you originally met Jeffrey Epstein. I would just like to ask a couple of questions on that topic. When you first met Epstein, how did he originally present himself to you? What what services did he say he was offering? >> Well, when I first met him, it was just alone. He didn't represent anything and I didn't ask anything. I was just meeting a friend's acquaintance. >> As that business relationship became closer and you eventually hired him, I assume he he pitched his services in some way. What what was his way of framing what he was offering to you? I think it was his experience um at an industrial level like working for a big company like Beer Sterns and then he had done personal work for the Rothschild family in France >> personal wealth management essentially >> I don't know we've seen some reports that he would present himself as a bounty hunter, that he would find people's missing money. Do you recall him saying anything like that? >> No. >> One of the articles uh that my colleagues already introduced uh I won't make you look back through it, but it was the Vanity Fair article. I will just read you a paragraph out loud. It's the only paragraph I have a question about. Uh, but that article reported that during a conversation, Jeffrey Epstein asked Mr. Meister to introduce Epstein to you, Mr. Wexner. And Epstein told Meister that Epstein had learned that Wexner's current money manager was stealing from him. And the article identifies Harold Levvin, I think, as your previous financial adviser. Do you have any recollection of with whether Mr. Epstein ever claimed that Mr. Levin was stealing from you. >> Objection to the article on hearsay grounds. You can answer. >> As I recall, Jeffrey never thought Harold was stealing and I didn't think Harold was stealing. >> Okay. Did anybody ever say that Harold was stealing? >> No. >> Okay. No recollection of that. >> No recollection of that. That article also describes a story where you sent Mr. Levvin to meet with Mr. Epstein and just discuss an investment opportunity, but Mr. Levin came back to you and told you to stay away from Mr. Epstein. Do you have any recollection of that type of a warning from Mr. Levvin? >> Objection. >> No. >> Okay. >> When you initially hired Mr. Epstein. Do you recall, and some of this may be repetitive, so you have my apologies. Do you recall what year you initially hired Mr. Epstein? >> No. >> Would it be right to say that it may have been either 1989 or 1990? Yeah. >> Do you recall anybody warning you not to get involved with Jeffrey Epstein when you first hired him? >> No. >> I'd like to talk about Epstein's roles and responsibilities while he worked for you. Um, you touched on this in the last hour. the total amount of time that he worked for you. How long was that approximately? It started maybe in 1989 or 1990 and I think you testified it ended in 200. What year did you say? >> They didn't. >> Okay. Well, what year do you recall the relationship ending? >> Did your statement help refresh your recollection? Whether Yeah, but where I said in the statement would be the correct date. And so whatever period that 89 or 90 would have been about then uh it ended when it ended. >> Was that upon his final uh plea in 2008 whatever I said in the statement is accurate. I I remembered this being convent he was stealing from us. >> In terms of the different things or roles that he would play for you. Uh is it right to say that he acted as an investment advisor or a money manager? What would be the right term for that role? I I the the the term wasn't part of my vocabulary, but he was kind of like the family office manager. And so where they oversaw investment, oversaw uh people getting paid, made sure taxes were done, and talked to accountants. Just then I had um in hindsight a very because I had done so well and I was dating Abigail and we were engaged and I was married and running 20 businesses. I was very busy and uh just is all that just just stuff that was in my personal life was either managed wasn't managed by me. It was like my admin was like the which sounds kind of crazy was the closest thing I had to any kind of supervision. >> Would he be making investments on your behalf the way a traditional investment adviser would? I must have known at the time. I don't recall specifically asking him about investment. >> I would like to introduce uh minority exhibit A. And this is an article from the Wall Street Journal titled Epstein flourished as he forged bond with retail billionaire. >> Next one. >> And you don't have to read through this whole article. It's just helpful to have it in front of us. But on the bottom of page three, I will read just a single sentence to you >> and it the article identify. >> Sure. It starts with the word soon. It's the very last sentence on the bottom of page three. Oh, >> and that sentence, I'll read it out loud as well, says that soon Mr. Epstein was presenting Mr. Wexner with a variety of investments including apartment buildings and a development involving a former post office building says Mr. Maroski and we understand that to be Robert Maroski a former vice chairman of your company. Is that consistent with what you remember Epstein doing for you? >> Objection hearsay. You can answer. >> No. >> No. Okay. Do you have any recollection of Epstein presenting you with investment opportunities such as these? >> I'm sure he did, but they weren't apartment buildings or post office. Could have been, you know, I'm uh do you remember? >> No, I don't remember. >> Is it that you don't recall at all or that as far as you recall that statement is just not accurate? Well, there's two parts of it in reading this one. Um, not accurate and I fired Bob Morowski for bad behavior. >> But as to the substantive part, is it is it that you don't recall whether or not Epstein would present you with these types of investments? >> I don't No, I do not recall. >> Okay. >> And the the quote is from somebody that I fired. >> Okay. In addition to the I guess family office role that you described, I'd like to ask about whether Epstein provided other services to you. Uh we know that he provided some later clients with tax planning services. Did he ever do anything like that for you? >> Must have. I have no specific recollection. I mean somebody my attorney tax attorneys have kind of a model about who did what. And so is it fair to say again that that is that you just don't recall either way? >> Yeah, I don't recall at all. >> Okay. Separately from that, Mr. Epstein was a trustee for various trusts and charities of yours. I'd like to touch on both of those roles starting with trusts. Uh and so I will introduce minority exhibit B. And that article is from ABC News and it's titled, "Billionaire businessman Leslie Wexner refuses to reveal full scope of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged multi-million dollar theft dated January 23rd. 2020. >> It's January 25th. >> Oh, great. Thank you. >> Well, I have January 23rd. >> Oh, I'm looking at the the date in the upper right. You're right. Under the by line is January 23rd. >> There you go. >> It's got two dates. I don't know which is correct. >> All right. On page three of this article, and I'll let you take a moment. Uh in the middle of that page, the article says that they identified nearly a dozen trusts connected to you. Uh I don't think you said >> Sure. It starts in the paragraph uh Vulture and Boyd in the middle of the page. >> Okay. >> Who are those? >> I think they're associated with ABC's investigative reporting team. >> Thank you. And it tells us that they found nearly a dozen trusts with names like health and science interests, arts interests, and community interests connected to Wexner that listed Epstein as trustee and received large gifts of stock in Wexner's company. So I'll stop there. Do you have a recollection of the trusts that are described here? >> None. >> None. And so do you have any recollection of Mr. Epstein's role with those trusts >> and >> okay we will come back uh to that but I'd like to touch for a moment on Epstein's role with the Wexner Foundation uh and I for that will introduce minority exhibit See, and this document is titled independent review of Jeffrey Epstein's involvement and interactions with the Wexner Foundation. And the document is dated February 24th, 2020. I'm not going to ask you to read through this. It's a long document. I will point you to a specific part of it. But first, we understand this to be an independent review that was undertaken by a law firm at the request of the Wexner Foundation in the wake of Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2019. Is that also your understanding? >> I never knew of it. And >> I'm looking at this. I'm laughing cuz the address is 65 East Street and that was the address of my dad's first store when I was 13. Okay. >> Okay. Well, so is is the report unfamiliar to you? >> Yes. Okay. >> Completely. >> And I think page four of the report says that you were interviewed by the law firm for this report. Do you have any recollection of that? >> Nope. >> None. Do you have any reason to doubt the report that you were in fact interviewed for the report? >> No. >> Okay. >> I don't remember it, so I can't doubt it. Page nine of the report uh simply tells us that Epstein, and I'll I'll let you turn to it if you'd like, but it just tells us that Epstein was elected as a trustee of the Wexner Foundation in 1992, and that he remained a trustee until September 2007. Epstein would not have been the only trustee of the Wexner Foundation. Correct. Objection to as to hearsay as to the document. The question is fine. Can you repeat it? >> Sure. Would Epstein did did the Wexner Foundation have more than one trustee? >> I'm sure it did. And I I think there was a legal requirement to have three. And I don't that I don't know that. I just think that. Okay. On the next page, page 10, under the header number two, there's a header that reads, "Epstein played no role in the operation of the foundation's fellowships or other programs." And the first sentence afterward says, "Based upon our review of foundation records and interviews with foundation leaders, we concluded that although a trustee, Epstein played no role in the management or administration of the foundation's operations or programs." Now, on that topic, I'd like to introduce one more single page exhibit for you. So, I'm just going to object to the statement as both a statement and hearsay. But go ahead. >> I think as the majority general counsel noted, the objections have no legal grounding in this forum. >> I I'm I'm making it for the record. It is a deposition. So, I'm making the objection. That's all. So, >> this is this single page. >> Single page. And I'll give you a moment to look it over. This is D. >> That's D. I'll describe it briefly. Uh, this is Can you give him a chance me a chance to read it? Thank you. I think I just read it. I've never seen this before, but go ahead. >> Great. It's a email chain from 2006 between uh starting with Peg Uglund who we understand was the financial controller for your family office, a person named Darren, who we understand to be Mr. Epstein's lawyer, Darren Indkike, and Jeffrey Epstein. And the chain appears to relate to a foundation grant. And the question is whether the funds should come from the Wexner Foundation or some other related entity. Epstein appears to make the decision that if the recipient is a US charity, then the funds should come from the Wexner Foundation. There are I'll just represent to you. There are other emails with similar themes. This email chain seems to clearly show Mr. Epstein acting as a final decision maker with respect to the dispersement of Wexner Foundation funds. And that obviously does not square with findings in the independent report. So having been interviewed for the report, my question is whether you had any understanding of Mr. Epstein playing this kind of role for the foundation. >> I'm not sure I understand the question. >> No problem. >> Did are you asking me did Jeffrey decide that money should be given even or or do I write a personal check or is it a foundation check? >> It seems in this example, Mr. Epstein was deciding whether or not the funds for this entity should or should not come from the Wexner Foundation >> or from someplace else, not whether the donation should be made itself. I think that's the distinction he's trying to draw. I >> I had no recollection of where it came from. Um, I regularly uh helped Aba Eman after he retired from government and I probably would have started with writing a personal check and then I'm I would speculate how it was paid. I don't remember writing the check. Uh, but Eben was a a very good friend and he had no money. He worked for the government of Israel and social security was in his income was nothing. He was like living in public housing and my sense was that wasn't fair. So I took care of him privately and his wife Susie until they both died. >> Did you have any knowledge that Mr. Epstein was acting as a final decision maker for whether or not to spend foundation funds? >> Not at all. He would never have done that. It does appear to have done it here >> as a decision maker. No, absolutely not. Was this wouldn't I wouldn't have not didn't know it. Wouldn't have thought it. >> So this this role would have him playing this role would have occurred without your knowledge. >> Objection. Seems that not evidence. >> It happened without my knowledge. But I but I did give money to my friend Aba Eban and his wife Susie. >> Okay. >> I think we've had an additional member of Congress uh join us. If that individual could identify themselves, please. >> Congressman Steve Lynch in the 8th Congressional District of Massachusetts. >> Hello, I'm Les. I'd like to spend a little bit of time on the development of New Albany and I know my colleagues also touched on that topic. Um, could you just briefly describe for us your role in the development of New Albany? I know it was substantial. So, a brief uh overview. >> Yeah. It it started out with me thinking I wanted to live a h have a house in the country. And it began with thinking I would buy an old barn and restore it and that'd be kind of a cool thing. And as I worked through the project, my my personal project, I asked my friend Jack Kesler, who was a professional professional in the real estate business and a developer, you know, what land cost and, you know, what he thought of the idea. And um then I got to thinking, do I really want to build a barn? And then I thought I want to build a house. And I kept telling Jack about what I was thinking I was going to do, having not done anything. And it started out pretty modestly. I think I I bought like a 30 acre farm, which is about a mile from here. And then the which I thought was a good location and over time I kept thinking about it decided that wasn't a good location. and this was a good location. And in the conversations with Jack, he kept saying that these are good ideas. You're not overpaying for land cuz this was something entirely new to me. And one day I said, Jack, if it's such a good idea, why don't you live here? And he said, I I would, but my wife wouldn't move. And then one day called up. He said, she thinks it's a good idea and we're going to sell our house and we'll build one near yours, which is the house that's a half mile away. And I said, 'If we're going to live here, do you think any of our friends would might want to live out near us or acquaintances of his? And he said, 'Yeah, I think a lot of people would like that. You know, the idea of having more land around and it's not that far from the airport, stuff like that. And uh that's how the idea began. And then the next idea was how do you do it? And Jack as a professional uh the only professional I knew in the real estate business other than shopping center developers relied on his judgment about prices we were paying and acquisitions because I had a full-time job and I didn't know anything about this. And then I got to thinking one day, how do you do it? I mean not acquire the land, how do you plan it? And I thought there's a lot of smart people at Harvard. So I made a cold call to the school of architecture, talked to the dean. I said, "I have this idea. You don't know me. Could you recommend some architects?" And he said, "I don't recommend architects to strangers and projects I don't know about." And we talked a while more and he said, "If you'll buy a day of my time, if you're really serious, I'll come out and look at it because I don't know whether you're really really serious about doing this." And then he gave me a list of architects and I didn't know any of them. You >> want me to keep going? >> No, I think I've got the sense of it. >> Yeah. And it it kind of just grew by topsy. >> I appreciate it. You also touched on this earlier, but what was the role of the New Albany Company in the development of the town of New Albany? >> Well, it was just the the the name of the community, so we called it the company. because we were developing New Albany. If >> if we had developed it in Pipsy, it' be called the Pikipsy company. >> What What was that? As far as you recall, Mr. Epstein's role in the development of New Albany. >> None. >> What was his role with the New Albany Company? as a fiduciary reading my financial advisor to understand what was going on financially. You know, I thought I knew what was going on in our businesses, but we always had a CFO. So, I'd rely on the CFO to do what the CFO do because I did the marketing and the planning, but I I did being a every bit business had a CFO. every business had overview and I had a lot of complexity that I didn't realize at the time in my life. So it was either you know somebody had to do this and and there's paper I I don't want to throw paper at you if I don't have to. Uh but I'll represent to you that yourself and Mr. Epstein were at least at one point co-presidents of the New Albany Company. I'm happy to show that if that would be helpful, but I guess my question would be what what would his role have been as co-president of the New Albany Company? >> I think it I I don't remember it, but if if he did it, it was just I don't know. that I was the president, chairman of the board, and then the CEO of a company. But I really just thought my job was to be the president. So that the titles wouldn't have meant anything to me. >> It it is right. I think you tell me that the purpose of the New Albany Company was to assist in the development of New Albany. Is that right? >> It was more than that. New Albany was just a farm village and I bought land here and developed it. uh built the schools, built the fire station, built the police station, did all the community, um public facilities, you know, platted streets. I can remember did all the drawings. So, I I was I I was the master developer of New Albany as a community. >> Did the New Albany Company have any purpose other than to assist in the development of New Albany? >> No. Okay. Mr. Epstein was at one point president of the New Albany Company. >> Objection. I think you said he was co-president. >> That's correct. Co-president. But just so I understand it, your testimony is that Mr. Epstein played no role in the development of New Albany. >> Absolutely no role. >> Okay. >> Like to talk about the limited company. Was Mr. Epstein ever employed by the limited company or any of its affiliated entities? >> Never. >> Did Mr. Epstein ever have an informal role with the limited company or any of its affiliated entities? >> Never. >> Did he ever provide any services or advice to the company regardless of compensation? >> Not that I recall. The Vanity Fair article we looked at earlier. I'll just relay the anecdote. You're welcome to look at it if you want to, but it it retells a story that in 1996, the limited was preparing to spin off Abberrombi and Fitch on the New York Stock Exchange and Epstein reportedly flew to Columbus and told your executives that he would decide the share price. Do you have any recollection of that occurring? >> Neil, nothing. another >> and the article says that Tom Hopkins, who I think was the vice chair of the limited at the time, told you at that point that Epstein was a con man. Do you have any recollection of that occurring? >> No. >> Okay. I'll note there's been a lot of reporting that Mr. Epstein held himself out as affiliated with Victoria's Secret. We will come back to that topic a little bit later. Were there any instances at all that you can recall in which Epstein got involved in the limited business affairs? >> No. >> In terms of Mr. Epstein's compensation, how was he compensated for his work for you? >> I don't specifically recall, but I would guess fairly. I should be more clear. Was he compensated with uh salary or would it have been investment based or securities or feebased? Do you recall what was the way in which you would compensate him? >> I don't recall. >> We discussed earlier I think that that the the breadth of his theft from you I think has been estimated by your councils to be the hundreds of millions. Do you recall approximately what Mr. Epstein's total compensation would have been in his time with you? >> I'm sure I would have known them, but I don't recall. I'd >> like to talk about Mr. Epstein's uh misappropriation or theft of your assets. And so I will introduce as exhibit E. So, this is an excerpt from a memo that the Department of Justice wrote in December of 2019 and DOJ was assessing the extent to which people around Epstein might have been liable for their conduct. >> Okay. >> The memo is is long. I will represent I have given you only the excerpt that relates to you. There's nothing else in this document that relates to you directly. the section uh that I've given you on pages on the second and third pages of the document that's 65 and 66 at the bottom. This is a summary of a proper that your lawyer or lawyers gave to DOJ in July of 2019 with respect to Epstein's theft from you in the second half of the second paragraph. I'll read it out loud. Your attorneys quote explained that over his years handling Wexner's finances, Epstein stole or otherwise misappropriated several hundred million dollars from Wexner. That misconduct together with with the fees that Epstein paid himself for his services to Wexner appears to account for virtually all of Epstein's wealth. So, so several hundred million is a large but not precise figure. To the best of your knowledge, how much exactly did Epstein steal? >> I don't know. I don't think I'll ever know. >> One of I'd like to try to understand a little bit better how Epstein was able to steal or misappropriate that many uh funds. One way reportedly is that the trusts that we described earlier, which I know you said you have no recollection of, I just want to to be thorough. The trusts that he was trustee of would receive gifts of limited stock and he would then sell that stock on the New York Stock Exchange and then use a portion of those proceeds for his own personal purposes. Do you have any knowledge or recollection of what I just described? I'm effing surprised. I shocked I didn't know this. >> Is it that you have not previously heard what I just described? >> I I I never heard of it. Never saw this document. >> And it was publicly reported, I think, by ABC several years ago, but but not ever on your radar. >> Never. >> Okay. Uh the report indicates that it was more than or around $1.3 billion dollar of stock that Epstein moved around that way. Not that he kept all of that money for himself, but the total amount of stock sales was over a billion dollars. You have no knowledge or awareness of that. >> I I don't know the amounts. The only trust that I'm aware of is my wife set up trust for her kids, you know. So, however she set them up in the amounts, I have no idea what's in them then or now. >> And then separately, it's been reported that around $20 million of stock and cash were contributed by two of your charitable foundations to one of Epstein's charities. Do you have any knowledge or awareness of that? >> Effing shocked. I I just I'm appalled. I never heard that. Did you know that? >> No. >> Except thank you. We have some additional questions with some questions from some of the the members here. I'll I'll start. I want to just go back to something. Um now earlier in the deposition, you said that you were never aware of Jeffrey Epstein or Maxwell sexually abusing minors or adult women. Is that correct? I I know Jeffrey um was accused by an adult woman of abusing her and that's the only the only thing that I knew until this hit the fan. >> So prior prior to it becoming public knowledge you were never aware Jeffrey >> collect absolutely not. >> Were you ever >> have to wait till he finishes asking the question. >> Sorry the court reporters will get mad at you if you don't. >> Okay. So I think you said that you think you said be or not. Uh were you ever aware of Jeffrey Epstein or Maxwell sexually abusing men or boys? >> No. >> How about trafficking men or boys? >> No. >> Prior to it becoming public knowledge, were you ever aware of Jeffrey Epste or Gain Maxwell arranging for a prominent person to have sex with another person? >> Never. >> Okay. Can I ask you, Mr. Wexter, were you ever with Jeffrey Epstein in the presence of women or men in bathing suits or underwear? >> No. >> Never in the presence of women or men in bathing suits or or underwear with Mr. Epste? >> No. I if he was at the fashion show that if he was at the fashion show he'd have seen women in underwear but you know >> so you're saying that if he was at a fashion show with you through the fashion business it may have been the case but maybe but could it have been the case that you were with Mr. Epstein maybe prior to the fashion show in or in another space? >> No. Absolutely not. >> So did any women or men ever model clothes for you in the presence of Mr. Epste. >> No. >> So, not at a fashion show and not in a private home or residence >> is a you know being in the audience of the fashion show would have been the only possible time. Uh are you aware of any individual that is that has given either a public statement or any information of anyone that has actually said that they believe you were in in with Mr. Epstein in the presence of women or men modeling clothes or underwear? I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure I understand the question. I >> I'll I'll I'll move on. Did just a direct question for you, Sarah. So, did you yourself ever have a sexual encounter with any individual that was introduced to you by Jeffrey Epste Maxwell? >> No. >> Did you personally have a sexual relationship with Jeffrey Epste? >> No. Are you aware that others have claimed that you had a sexual relationship with Jeffrey Epste? >> No. >> Did you ever suspect, sir, if Jeffrey Epstein ever had any sexual relationships with other men? >> No. But you since it being public knowledge, you are now aware that Jeff had inappropriate sexual relationships with other women. Is that correct? >> Yes. What I know from the the press, the stories. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Sorry. >> Thank you. Um I'd like to ask you about Epstein's properties and your visits to them. Of course, Epste New York and New Albany houses were originally yours. we discussed earlier and you also had a house in Palm Beach. Is that correct? >> Objection. The the I think he testified that the house in New Albany was Mr. Kesler's. >> Okay. >> I was just trying to clarify. >> No, thank you. Um and the house in Palm Beach, was there a house that you had in Palm Beach? Sorry. >> I had a um I did have a house in Palm Beach. >> Okay. Did you ever visit Epste >> once? Um, can you tell us about that visit? >> Um, he bought a house in Palm Beach and he wanted me to see it. I think he wanted me and Abigail to see it and we flew down on like a Sunday morning with friends of ours from Columbus. Looked at the house, you know, congratulations. Got back on the plane and came home. So then it was pretty modest house. >> Did you ever special >> so one trip in that trip did you ever witness Donald Trump at the house? >> No. >> Do you recall any other prominent figures at the Palm Beach House? >> No, just Jeffrey and my friends. >> Who were the other friends? >> Juvian Steve Tuckerman. Dr. Steven Tuckerman and his wife Judith. I'm sure they'll be delighted about that. No, they won't be. >> Did you um did you ever visit his island in the US Virgin Islands? >> Yes. >> Can you tell us about those visits? >> Yes. Jeffrey um invited us to see it and uh we were on a boat and we went to the island with our kids. So, Abigail, myself, but I can't remember how many kids we had. two, three or four, but at least two. Walked around for a while and left. Probably an hour visit. >> Okay. An hour. So on that trip, do you recall seeing any prominent figures on the island? >> No. It was a pretty crummy island. >> Okay. Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico or his house in Paris? >> Just want to break those up for clarity. >> Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico? >> It was the same kind of thing. He wanted Abigail and I to see his ranch. We flew down there and drove around for an hour or two, got back on the plane and came home. And I don't think he had a house. >> So you would fly just to go visit for one hour. >> Yeah. I I would fly to Europe for 1 hour on business trips. I As crazy it is, I getting on the plane and going places for me was like going to the mailbox. Uh, and he didn't have a house on the ranch, and I never knew he had a house in Paris. >> And in the ranch in New Mexico that you spent an hour at, were there any prot figures or anyone that you recall else being there? >> No, as I recall, it was just Abigail, myself, and I think he'd rented a trailer, so it wasn't a house. And that's all I know. >> Okay. And so to clarify, you didn't know he had a house in Paris. So you did not ever go to the house in Paris? >> I didn't didn't know he had a house in Paris and therefore he didn't go to the house in Paris. >> Okay. >> Um during any of your visits to any of these properties, did you ever see any girls or women that looked unusually young? >> No. >> Did you ever hear rumors of any girls or women who looked unusually young visiting? Epste never did. >> During any visits to Epstein's property, did you ever see photographs or other images of women or minors? >> Not that I recall. >> Did you ever become aware of Epstein transporting women or minors using assets that you owned, whether that's a plane that you owned or a yacht that you owned? >> Absolutely not. No. And did you ever hear of any rumors related to Epstein's personal life or his sexual activities? >> No. >> Rumors that you may have heard in the great vine. >> That's kind of ambiguous. I mean, look, I'll answer you in this. I think you're asking an ambiguous question. Um, I would go to uh visit David Gurgen at Harvard because I was very interested in the center of public leadership >> and David would say, "Jeffrey was up here. Your friend Jeffrey was up here and he was visiting Henry Rossovski who was the dean of Harvard College or he was visiting Larry Summers and he always has an admin with him or you know a girl and he says he never a woman could be more accurate." that he never travels by himself. >> And I think that's what I'm referring to. I mean, I don't think I'd get through a day without hearing a rumor about somebody. So, I imagine somebody you were close to, you probably heard. >> No, but it wasn't it it was more like he was traveling with his his admin or his secretary or his lady lawyer or his lady accountant. That's what I would hear. But it wasn't I don't I never heard rumors about Jeff you know, Jeffrey was traveling around with a girlfriend for this or a girl was like it was part of his I don't know social visits or something was always uh if I heard it was in reference to work his work. >> Okay, thank you. >> Yes, thank you. Um I actually want to start in a little bit of a different place really quickly. >> Um Dr. Mark Landon. Are you familiar with him? >> Who? >> Dr. Mark Landon. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, he was paid by Epstein on your behalf to consult on biomed investments. Is that correct? >> I just heard about that. I didn't know that till maybe I don't know last few days. >> Okay. So, um, with you knowing Dr. Mark Landon, um, are you aware as to whether or not Dr. Landon ever was paid to render medical services to any of the alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein? >> No. >> What is your relationship with Dr. Landon? U Abigail had a complicated pregnancy and their general obstitrician I believe referred her to Martin Land and he is an obstitrician and that's how I met him and he delivered our children. >> Okay. >> And so our relation my relationship with him is my wife's doctor. >> Did you ever introduce him to Jeffrey Epsy? No. >> Okay. >> All right. Um, did you ever spend time with Epstein and Donald Trump? >> Together? >> Yes. I want to answer this question accurately. I would go to some of the Victoria Secret fashion shows. It was very important to the brand. At some of the fashion shows, Jeffrey was there and some Trump was there. And I remember because Trump would always introduce himself to me and I always thought it was kind of odd that he was at the fashion show because he had nothing to do with fashion. So the coincidence of them being together at at an event, it could have been that, but I have no specific recollection. They never had a social or like a drink or a cup of coffee, something that uh that would put them together. >> Okay. So, just to clarify, because I want to make sure we're clear on the record, you're saying that you can recall instances potentially where Epstein and Trump were together and you were in their presence or just a random scenario where Epstein may be there, Trump may be there separately and then you would >> It would be at random. That would be accurate if it happened, but I have no specific recollection. >> Okay. Um, did you ever see or become aware of President Trump having a sexual relationship with a person who was introduced to him by Epstein or Maxwell? >> Nope. >> Um, has Donald Trump ever discussed Jeffrey Epstein with you? >> Nope. >> Did Jeffrey Epstein ever discuss I'll talk with you. >> I I would describe it. He would name drop it. So he would say things like I know President Clinton or I know the Pope or I know God or you know or I know you. It was that kind of name dropping but never I can't remember specific place but Jeffrey dropped a lot of names. Okay. So, to clarify, you believe he's specifically dropped Donald Trump's name? >> No, I'm saying it could have, but I don't remember. >> Okay. >> Um, did Epstein ever share any information with you about Donald Trump's sexual activities? >> No. >> Do you have a relationship with Donald Trump? >> No. >> But you've met him before? He would he introduced himself to me at the fashion show a couple of times, but I wouldn't say hello, how are you? Like you say met like in we we knew each other. We don't know each other. He wouldn't I'd be shocked if he remembered me. >> Okay. And um I know that you specifically mentioned the island that you have been to Jeff Island. Um, do you recall seeing any of those persons that Jeffrey Epstein name dropped while you were on his island? >> No, nobody was there, but Abigail, myself, Jeffrey, maybe a somebody cutting grass or something. There was a maintenance person, I think. I don't specifically recall. I know for sure I was there, Abigail was there, Jeffrey was there. And there wasn't anything abnormal about the appearance of um the home in on the island or and and the reason that I asked just to give you clarification on what I mean by um abnormal. We've heard reports of people being thrown off when they walked into his home in New York because there was massage table that was just sitting randomly in the middle of a room. Did you see anything like that when you visited any property that belonged to Jeffrey Epstein? >> Well, first to clarify, when we visited the island, there was like a pblo building like maybe a a one room and a bathroom or something. It was pretty crummy. And the island was crummy. Uh there were no trees, there was no sand, there was no beach. It was just it's a kind of a peculiar thing. It was an island, but it was like a pile of rocks. It was just I was kind of shocked that it was that anybody would buy it for any purpose. Uh, as far as seeing things, you know, I never was in the house, you know, I never at his house in New York. Um, the house in Florida, we were there after he bought it because I mentioned with the couple, so I never saw a massage table or or anything. Thank you so much. Um, thank you uh, Mr. Wner for uh, your ability to answer a lot of questions. I think when you meet the survivors, it becomes incredibly personal, especially for women on this committee. So, appreciate it. But, I'd like to introduce exhibit I believe it's F. Um, the article is titled Jeffrey Epste made regular payments to Ohio State head of gynecology record show which is from a local affiliate. It's dated February 10, 2026. we'll be able to get it to you. It's about Dr. >> I know they're passing it out, but um Mr. Wexner in the article explains that recent Department of Justice files indicate that in early 2000, Epstein was making quarterly payments to Dr. Michael Landon, who is the OBGYn and the chair of the OBGYn at Ohio State University. And you said that your wife got received services from Dr. Landon, so you know him. >> Yes. >> Okay. Dr. Landon said the payments were consulting services he provided for New York Strategy Group, which was some kind of firm associated with Pepsi. Do you know why? Why was he getting paid the quarterly payment by Epstein? >> Not a clue. >> Um do you know if there is gynecology services being offered to Epstein? for victims, women. >> No idea. >> Because you were you're like you're very associated with the Ohio State University, right? >> Yes. >> You were the board chair. Okay. Were you aware that Jeff Jeffrey Epstein was paying her quarterly payments? >> No. >> You weren't? >> No. >> Okay. So, the article suggests that Epstein would build you and your wife for at least one of these payments in 205. Quote, as we have in prior years. That's evidence. within the Department of Justice. Mr. Wexner, were you aware of these $25,000 quarterly payments coming from your accounts in 2005 and earlier? >> Not till this moment. >> You know, Mr. Wexner, I'm watching this all unfolding. I just want you to know it's incredibly hard uh for people to understand. You don't know this. Maybe you don't know specific details. Maybe you don't know the dollar amounts, but Epstein was able to be empowered and abled to hurt more people with your money. You understand that? >> Oh, yeah. He's a crook. >> I know. But the You don't know the purpose of the payment and the money's coming from your It's your money and you don't know why he's paying a doctor at Ohio State University. >> Sadly, I don't. >> Did you introduce him to Dr. Landon? >> No. >> How did he meet Dr. Landon? >> I wouldn't know that he met him. He's Abigail. Your your wife received services from Dr. Michael Landon. >> Yes. And so did my daughter. >> Okay. Um so was it a routine practice for the New York State strategy groups expenses to be paid by your accounts? >> I never heard of it. >> It's weird because it's your money going in to pay for this consulting services of another company. >> It's weird to me too. >> So Dr. Ley never talked to you about these >> never quarterly payments. >> Never. um something else that comes up because one of the claims that you're saying that you're not close friends and everything but you know some of us have access to the redacted uh email some of us already I think majority of us have gone down there >> um there has constant claims from survivors again they're redacted from some of the communication directly with Maxwell or directly with other women u that were helping that scene and your name comes up synonymously sometimes with with that Uh, did you know that? >> Well, I know it now. >> Well, they also said that you were lovers. And I know it's nothing to be ashamed of. I just want you to know. >> It's so great. >> No, no, it's nothing to be ashamed of. >> But it would explain, I think, the closeness that everyone consistently says. No one ever says you're not close. Is that like everyone says that you had a close relationship? That you and Epstein were close friends. Did you know that? >> Objection. your sake. >> Okay. Um I think Mr. Wexner, could you provide us with the name of every registered legal entity? And this is important because if you don't know now, then give us the information. Help us find the people that hurt the girls with your money. We're I'm asking and urging you to please. You started your business with your aunt Ida's money. You don't want your legacy to be not just Epstein, but Dr. What is the guy's other's name? Dr. Richard Straws. >> Richard Straws, who also the Well, it doesn't matter. You were chair of Ohio State University. You were the board of the board chair at the time that he hurt other women athletes on campus. This is to say to you, it's not only one person that hurt women, but now two that are affiliated with you directly. And I just want to urge you that if you don't know the answers to this, follow up with our committee. Give us the information so we can find out who hurt the women and who benefited from it. So could you provide us with the name of every registered legal entity of which you were the beneficial owner between the start of your relationship with Mr. Epstein and his death? >> I would >> Can you provide that to the committee? Sir, >> I would provide you with everything and anything I could to nail it names where they were registered and the date of registration and the names of whoever acted as the agent of those entities. Can I request that you just put that request in writing and direct it to me >> and and and we will we will take we'll take it and and respond. >> And it's important because Mr. Wexner so you know the the women the survivors told us to follow the money consistently. >> The other question and and this this will be my last um you claimed that you have been a victim and defrauded by Epstein. Correct. >> Correct. Then why didn't you file charges, go after him? He used money to hurt girls and probably let young men. Why didn't she do anything to recoup your name, which has been synonymous with Epstein? Do you know your name comes up in the emails among victims who never met you, but your name was used consistently? >> I'm not sure I understand what the question to hit. >> The question is, why didn't you any charges against Epstein if you conjure of $200 million that we know of? Why didn't you go after him? >> Well, at the time I didn't know. And >> when you found out, why didn't you go after him? >> Is it because he was a good friend? >> No. >> You You had >> My dad My dad is probably laughing. You know, one of the things one of the No. No. One of the things my dad told me that you don't get a pissing contest with an elephant and running a public company for a long time. I'm not good at public relations or financial public relations. And so I would answer questions to analysts. I'd call people up and I'd tell them the truth. And what I learned in the course of my business career is whether it was my chief of staff, the company lawyer, personal lawyers, what should I do? And the advice is let us handle it. Don't you don't you don't want to get ahead of this. >> So I I'm happy that today is happening >> because I want to help and I would do everything I can >> to nail that son of a And >> please let him please just let please let him finish. and and and I can't tell you how much I value my own ethics, my own moral compass, that it has a true north. And what I think happened now knowing about all the cons is that Jeffrey would tell somebody that that they were me or this was somebody else. Like I don't you and I've never met, right? I don't recognize you, but you're a congresswoman. I think because >> Yeah. I never met you, but you're all over the emails. >> Yeah. But so I I presume you're a congresswoman and I presume you're not you're not a man in women's clothing. I don't know what I didn't know and I >> this is >> you know now we can do something about it. >> Oh yeah. >> So Wexer claims you claimed that you cut ties with Epste in '07, right? Okay. But you emailed Epstein. Quote, Abigail told me the response. All I can say is I feel sorry. You violated your own number one rule. Always be careful. End of quote. That was an email in 2008, Mr. Rex. >> I know. I'm letting you know that the public knows. >> Probably. I was giving him the finger. >> Okay, that's it. Thank you. real briefly. Uh, did the FBI or Department of Justice ever directly speak to you about Epstein or Maxwell? >> Has the FBI or DOJ ever directly contacted you or spoken to you about about to >> never. Uh, and then finally, um, would you consider Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein friends or friendly? Would you classify them that way in the information that you have? I think it's really two questions. Would I think they were friends? No. Jeffrey Epstein held him out as a friend. >> Great. Thank you. We can go off the record. >> We'll go back on the record. >> What's that? >> Uh, that is a microphone. Um, Mr. Wexner, it is 1:17 in the afternoon. Um, our minority colleagues touched on a lot of different subject areas and I just want to go back through and parse out some things. Um, first though, I want to enter as exhibit five the um, letter from less One more. This document is titled letter from less um general news directed to the Wexner Foundation community. Um I will stipulate to you there's no date on here. if the data was posted on the website was August 8th, 2019. Do you guys have any reason to dispute that? Um, in this letter that you wrote um in August of 2019, you mentioned that you had uh that Mr. Epstein had various well-known respected individuals as financial clients and in his inner circle. Uh my question to you is could you elaborate a little bit to who some of those financial clients were that you were aware of? >> Well to but just it says he rep Epste represented that he had that he wouldn't know if he did or not. Were you aware of any of Mr. Epste's other clients? >> Let me think. Well, specifically I talked to Ellie D Rothschild and so I mentioned that earlier. Uh so he he represented their whole family. There have been a whole bunch of people many most of whom I never would have met but in New LA. Um, I never met people, but there were people that called me that either insinuated or said they were knew Jeffrey through a financial relationship. And so I mean they could have been actors but at then the time I'm a guy calls me up. I'll give you an example >> just it's just >> no no because I want you to understand this because it's it's so confusing to me. He would say like I'm I'm providing uh financial advice to the founders of Google. I'm financial providing financial advice to Jeff Bezos. I'm finan providing financial financial advice uh for the chief technologist at Google and I wow I'm in good company because these are really smart guys with a lot of money and you have to put yourself in the mindset of you you if my turn if my attorney said you know he was qualified to argue in front of the Supreme Court I'd believe him. I didn't say to call the Supreme Court and say tell me is he really an attorney or did he do this and I get a phone call from someone like guy named Marwal he was the who said he was the chief technology of Google you know Jeffrey has been helping me he's financial advisor I told Jeffrey I was building a boat he told me to call you I have never built a boat but because I hadn't but if I wanted to build a boat I would go to Fedship because reputationally they're the best boat builders then you know it it was and that's the the part that is so embarrassing is what economy was and if you it I don't know you believe your your priest or your minister your rabbi is what they are you believe them and people would it was mostly phone calls of people would say or if you'd bump into some yeah Jeffrey's my advisor Jeff talked to me about stuff or Jeff helped me with financial things. I can't remember specifically, but as I look back at it, it was part of the con. So, I never met my one second because I think you'll move this thing along a little faster. >> Stop. >> Okay. >> Just answer the question. >> Um, Mr. Wexner, >> you mentioned some of these uh phone calls from other individuals, you know, boasting about their ties with Mr. Epstein. Do you have a recollection of when most of these would have occurred, these phone calls? >> Pretty regularly, but I specifically can't remember any of them. >> Understood. Um in majority exhibit uh three, your statement from this morning, your written statement from this morning. Um, you mentioned on the second page, I believe it is, second paragraph, approximately middle of the paragraph, that you consulted Ace Greenberg and Jimmy Kaine of Bear Sterns, Epstein's former employer. Did I read that correctly? >> Correct. >> Um, what did you reach out to Mr. Greenberg and Mr. Kane about at Bear Sterns with regard to Mr. Epstein? >> Checking references. And um as far as checking those references, did uh did anything come up surprising to you about Mr. Epstein's background? >> All positive. >> And um you also mentioned, let me take a step back. Uh Bear Sterns has has mentioned and previously reported that Mr. Mr. Epste didn't have a degree or some of the proper qualifications for his job there. Did you have any reason to doubt the qualifications of Mr. Epste when it related to being your financial adviser? >> I don't recall that question that that is he had a degree. I don't remember asking the question. >> And so going off of that, other than making some phone calls to some individuals, did you ever formally check into Mr. Epstein's past >> not beyond um talking to um the people I mentioned. >> Understood. Um you also state going sorry to jump back and forth the letter from last exhibit five that same paragraph um the the third one in the middle there. The last sentence after the comma says I believed I could trust him. What about him being Mr. Epstein did you did he do that you thought you could trust him? Well, I put him in a position of trust. He was a fiduciary and it was to act in my interest and I trusted that he could do that. And you your trust in him came before he actually handled any of your uh finances. Is that correct? >> Correct. Is it initially he was like a friend of a friend who I perceived of as being skilled to review Errol's work? >> Understood. Um moving along a little bit. You may have touched on this with our minority colleagues. What was the rough portfolio that Mr. Epstein was handling for you? >> Probably all my personal finance, houses, equipment, cars, just inventorying of stuff. This the stuff, I don't know, all the financial things that someone would handle outside of their business. Uh, I'd have someone do because it was so much stuff. And um your pre your the financial adviser previous to Mr. Epstein. Did that individual have power of attorney? >> I don't specifically remember it, but I think he did. >> And Mr. Epstein did have power of attorney over your financial matters. >> Yeah. As did Dennis. >> And um why did this become your practice to give them power of attorney? so busy traveling so much. The papers had to be signed, tax returns filed, people had to act on my behalf, so many things to sign that you I needed to have somebody to do that. Understood. How involved were you um with Mr. Epstein's determinations over your finances. Did you have any involvement? >> I'm confused. What determinations mean? >> Uh, more of like a Did you have any oversight of what Mr. Epstein was doing as your financial adviser? >> Well, I'm sure he did at the time. Yeah. >> And did he bring every decision to you, some decisions to you? What did that look like? >> I don't know. I was running a 20 division business had community responsibilities. So if you ask me what the president of the university brought to me or what the head of the foundation I can't remember but I was involved in everything except just a lot of stuff. So is it a fair characterization of your testimony that uh Mr. repring had pretty wide latitude over your financial affairs. >> Yes, I that's fair. Pretty wide. >> And Mr. Epstein had access to your personal bank accounts. Is that correct? >> I don't recall. >> Do you recall if he had access to any of your business bank accounts? >> He I'm I'm sure he wouldn't. >> Did Mr. Mr. Epstein ever ask you to lend him money for any reason? >> No. >> Did Mr. Epstein ever make any attempt to blackmail you for any reason? >> No. >> Did Mr. Epstein's control over your personal finances um extend to any decisions that affected the rest of your family members? Mostly that's just like I I want to say no, but I know that he was involved with the Children's Trust because I learned that today or what he did that I didn't know that would have been personal. I don't I don't know what I don't know. But to my knowledge, he wouldn't have in in a civilian way been involved. And just to to clarify to your testimony earlier about setting up trust for your children, um was Mr. Epstein who helped set up the trust for your children? >> I don't recall. >> Did he handle Did Mr. Epstein handle any other financial decisions in regard to your children? >> Not that I'm aware of. What? And um sorry, gonna switch gears a little bit here um about your foundation. Why ultimately did Mr. Epstein become a trustee of your foundation? >> Just convenience for signing documents, financial oversight. um not for the found nothing not anything that would be the operation of a foundation its purpose or review of people. It was just part of the complexity of my personal life and um forgive my ignorance. You have usually board members of of foundations and separately trustee members. Is that an accurate statement? I wish I could too. I think we just had trustees. >> Okay. >> And um just uh to clarify, Mr. Epstein, did he receive any compensation for his role on the board of the Wexner Foundation? >> Not to my knowledge. Do you recall who Mr. Epstein replaced on the board or how that board seat became available to him? >> No. >> Did your mother used to be a member of the foundation board? >> I think so. And um was due to circumstances was um she forced to step down from the board. >> No, she left her board position willingly. >> Yes. >> Was Um, can you describe in a little bit more detail the circumstances for why your mother left the board of the Wexner Foundation? >> I don't recall. Probably age. Um, Mr. Wexner, what sort of materials did you use to prepare for today's deposition? >> I'm going to object to anything that council showed him that's my work product. Anything he reviewed on his own, he's welcome to testify about a few documents and smart advice like just answer questions. Yes. >> Don't discuss what your client what your attorney for. >> Yeah. Nothing. >> The question was >> okay. or say it again. >> Um, >> I wouldn't be honest. >> Excuse me. Um, what what documents or other materials did you use in preparation for today's deposition >> other than anything that your lawyer showed you? >> Oh, nothing. >> Are you aware of any litigation from your mother and the Wexner Foundation about her stepping down from the board? >> No. >> >> Was there any pre ever, excuse me, was there ever any pressure from Mr. Epstein to keep his position on the foundation's board? >> No. >> When you were in the I'll call it the prime of your career as a as a CEO over your your company's corporation. Um, would you say that you were heavily involved in the operations of the company and its related entities? >> Heavily isn't a big enough word. >> Um, could it be described that you uh like to micromanage what was going on through your companies and your corporation? No, that was how I would describe my involvement. I don't think people that I worked with ever describe me as a micromanager, but I was I was in involved in so many things in the business. I love the business. And um did you ever face any criticism from your corporation or its related entities about allowing Mr. Epstein to handle finances in any way. >> We never handled business finances and he no one in the business was critical of Jeffrey handling, you know, his responsibilities to me personally. >> No one ever brought any concerns to you at all? >> Not that I recall. Um, I want to circle back again to some testimony you provided earlier. Uh, you testified that Mr. Epstein stole large amounts of money from you. Is that correct? >> Yes, I did. That's a statement. And um I can't recall. Did you know some partial amount of how much he stole? >> Well, I didn't know he was stealing till after we discovered that he was a crook. And my wife attorneys told me about They told you what you understood. >> What I understood I I only understood what they told me. >> Um >> I I didn't discover it or count it or whatever one would do. That's that's the essence of your question. >> Does $46 million sound like an approximation of the amount that you were alerted to after the fact? I I don't remember specifically initially. Abigail just told me this is really >> No, not what Abigail told you. What you understand? >> What I understood that it was a large amount of money and I didn't know I didn't know the specific amount when it was first raised. Subsequently, I found out that it was at least $100 million. >> Does that represent the grand total of the amount that Mr. Epstein stole from you? I don't know. I I don't think I'll ever know. >> Do you understanding that you found out he stole largely um after the fact? Um were you able to piece together how he was able to accomplish this theft of you? >> No. You never figured out if he was say, you know, embezzling funds of some sort or how he would be allegedly embezzling funds of some sort. >> No. >> And uh you testified earlier that um you did not end up pressing any charges against Mr. Epstein for the theft of your funds. Um could you briefly explain to me why again you decided not to >> advice advisors >> advice of advisors >> and to be clear you never suspected any wrongdoing until you ultimately knew. Is that correct? Correct. Did um are you aware of any advisers fearing any type of retribution from Mr. Epstein if you pursued litigation over the theft of your funds? >> Say that again. >> Did you have fear of did your adviserss have come to you with any fear of retribution from Mr. Epstein if you threatened litigation over the theft of your funds? >> No. No. I don't remember that at all. >> Are you aware of Gilen Maxwell um having any role in the theft of your funds? >> No. >> I want to um move now to the uh New York City town home um 9 East 71st Street. Um, I believe you first purchased that home before Mr. Epstein lived in it. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> Um, do you remember the time period in which you would have bought it? Best guess I five or 10 years before uh it was a school and then the remodeling took three years and so I don't remember that when it was Uh, but I'm guessing it was I don't know. >> And in the 80s sometime. >> Excuse me. >> Uh, and you said 5 to 10 years before. Um, 5 to 10 years before what exactly? >> Before I met Jeffrey. >> Okay. Um, did you ever live in this house yourself? >> I just I visited it, but I I never lived in New York. Really? I hate New York. Um, when are you first aware of Mr. Epstein moving into that mansion? >> Well, he moved in sometime after I sold it to him, but I don't I don't know when that was. Um, would you be able to best guess when you sold the house to Mr. Ebstein? It would have been after 1993. Okay. Are you aware that the deed to the property did not officially change hands to Mr. Epste until the mid200s? No. Do you recall how Mr. Epstein purchased this house from you? >> Okay. Presumably >> and this the sale of this town home was at the time that um Mr. Epste was managing your personal finances. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> U is it possible that Mr. Epstein sold the house to himself without your knowledge. >> No, I would I would know or I know of course he bought it. >> Did he approach you to buy that home? >> Yes. Do you recall approximately how much money you sold that town home to Mr. Epstein for? >> I think about $20 million. >> Do you recall what the market value on that home was at the time? >> I believe it was $20 million. >> So, you believe you got a fair deal for for selling that home? >> I believe so. Yes. Um, it's been recently reported that the uh your company or uh I guess technically one of your subsidiaries, the two Inc. um was transferred to Jeffrey Epstein's financial trust company in or around 2001. Um do you have any knowledge of that happening? I don't know what Two Inc. is and I have no knowledge what it did. >> Two Inc. wasn't one of your clothing brand subsidiaries. >> Uh it was called limited to was it that was a business that was part of the company. >> That's the only thing it means to me. >> Did you have any of your um subsidi subsidiaries of your company transferred to Mr. personal business side control. I don't think so. We previously we'll switch gears on you again. Um, we previously mentioned accusations from Maria Farmer. Um, and there were a subsequent set of allegations from another individual. Are you aware of who Virginia is? >> No. Familiar name, but I don't I've heard it, but I can't don't connect it to anything. Did you ever have any sexual contact of any kind with Miss Jupy? >> No. How could I have contact? I don't even know. >> Mr. Juy has accused you of um performing sexual acts with her multiple times. You dispute these allegations. >> She must be confused. It never happened. >> Did Mr. Epstein ever bring up Miss Jupy to you? >> No. Not a familiar name. Ever mentioned Miss Grey giving you a massage? >> No. >> Miss Maxwell ever bring up Miss Grey to you? >> No. What about her um former maiden name Virginia Roberts? Does that ring a bell to you? >> Never heard. Um, I want to return to some things we discussed in uh earlier in the day about travels with Mr. Epstein. Um, I believe it was your testimony that Mr. Repstein was only on your corporate jet when you were president. Is that accurate? >> Yes, to my knowledge. >> And to your knowledge um I believe it was your testimony earlier that there would be um surprise parties in which the jet was traveling to a location for one of those parties, but you could not recall Mr. Epstein being at the party. Is that correct? >> Correct. If Mr. Epstein was not attending the party, what were the purposes of his travel with you on your corporate jet? >> I don't know. Do >> you have a rough rough estimation of how many times you would have traveled with Mr. Epste on your corporate jet? I don't specifically recall any but it would have been once twice been very few times because the aircraft was used primarily for business purpose and when we used it personally we paid for the airplane. So the the notion of you know of him using the plane or or being on the plane for kind of social reasons or you know just buming a ride kind of thing just never happened with anybody. And um I take that to mean you also never flew Mr. Epstein to um locations where any of his various homes were located. Absolutely not. >> It's absolutely not. They never did that. And um just to to clarify, I believe this might have been asked earlier. Uh did Mr. Epste never bring guests on these flights? >> Not that I recall. Your corporate plane at that time was a Boeing 727. Is that accurate? We had two aircraft 727 and we replaced it with a 737 and I don't remember. They looked alike except for their motors. So I can't remember. I know which came first and which came second but I can't tell you in time. And um just to back up for a brief second, did you keep uh detailed flight logs for the personal travels on your corporate jet? >> I believe we keep kept personal we kept flight logs on our business aircraft and our personal airplane always. Um, and the corporate jet. Did you sell one of these airplanes to Mr. Epstein? >> You didn't mean the company? >> The company? Yes. >> Yeah. The the company sold an airplane to uh Mr. Epstein. >> Do you recall um when that sale was made? >> No. >> Can you guesstimate when that sale was made? if when they delivered the 737 I I don't know when it was. Do you understanding um your posture with the the corporation has changed over the years? Do you have you maintained any of those flight logs? Do you have them still as records today? >> Never had them and don't have them. Do you know why you do not have those flight logs? >> I I would assume CEOs don't keep flight logs of their company airplanes. That's a kind of shocking question. >> You wouldn't have the corresponding flight logs of when you personally used the jet on your own fin your personal finances. I think we there probably two reasons that I know I was I know we kept flight loss and I think it's a government requirement that you have to have flight logs on an airplane but two so many people in the business different CEOs would be using the planes and every every plane request would come to me because I one I wanted them to travel and I wanted to make sure that they were then traveling with the people that they were traveling with. So I know I approved or my admin approved on my behalf when I wasn't around who was on the airplanes and the trip because like finally a CEO would re would request a trip say they were going to go to Denver to visit stores and there were eight people that were going on the store visit then I'd get and I would approve it because that would be a good use and then so say the CEO went with by themsel and was like no it's not the purpose. So I it was a very expensive and valuable asset to the business and I wanted to know that it was being used appropriately, but I never reviewed the flight logs. You know, it's just that level of minutia was beyond me. >> Understanding you might not have reviewed flight logs or, you know, even necessarily had a a reason for acquiring them. Is is that a is that a a record that would still be kept in the custody of either yourself for personal travel or for the business if those records were ever needed for some sort of purpose? >> I don't know what what the business kept, but um if they're there, I'm sure they're welcome to look at them. >> And so would you be able to obtain those records, assuming they do exist >> from the company? >> Yes. Or personally? I I don't think he has access to them at the company. You guys have authority. >> Do you recall how much you sold the plane to Mr. Epstein for? >> The company. >> The company. The company for. Sorry. My apologies. >> Yeah, I I I do. Was approximately $6 million. And what would have been the, if you recall, what would have been the market value for that aircraft at that time? >> $6 million. >> You believe you got a fair deal for that aircraft? >> The company got a fair deal. >> Sorry. Yes, the company got a fair deal for that aircraft. >> Yeah, I thought it was a very fair deal. >> Similar question to Mr. Mr. Epstein's acquisition of the New York town home. How did Mr. Epstein um purchase this plane from you? >> From the company, we get I'll get there. I promise. Okay. >> I presume we wrote a check. >> And you weren't you weren't privy to the um any of the fine details of that deal? So, as far as which entity Mr. Epste would have used to buy that plane from the company, >> no, the plane, the value of the plane was appraised by an airplane broker. That plane was for sale for a year and the value was $6 million. That's all I know. >> Understood. And um excuse me, this is repetition, but did Miss Maxwell ever travel with you on the plane? >> On the company's plane? >> Not that I recall. >> Did you ever fly on an aircraft owned or operated by Jeffrey Epstein? >> Absolutely none. >> Did Mr. I've seen ever invite you to fly on any of his aircrafts that he owned or operated. I I think he might have um but I can't specifically remember the circumstance. it. Some of this is really difficult to remember because Jeffrey was such a con and as I look back at it that's it. He was much better at being a crook than I was than I am as an honest person. And I I think for the committee to understand this the con part I I can't imagine a bigger crook or con the world has ever seen. >> >> Do you recall what rationale you would have had for declining taking flights with Mr. Epstein on his on planes owned or operated by him? >> I was busy, very busy. In busy years, I was in the air flying on business purpose in the air 3 to 400 hours a year. You if you can imagine somebody traveling in the air 58 hour days and running a company. I ran it from the air as much as I did on the ground. So the last thing you wanted to do was take a trip with anybody. the same people. I didn't recognize the whole Okay, just focus on them. Okay. Uh, one of the, uh, subsidiaries of your corporation was Victoria's Secret. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> And, um, what is Victoria's Secret known for primarily? I said the biggest best lingerie brand in the world >> and >> kind of like Nike is the running shoes. >> Understood. And um what type of events would occur to um market or advertise that company while you were in control of it? >> Was print advertising? Was TV ads? Um, a lot of the marketing was point of purchase, the the design of the stores and and of course the fashion show was kind of a magical thing for the brand. >> And I I believe you touched on this a bit earlier. Were you aware of Mr. Epstein holding himself out to be affiliated with Victoria's Secret? >> Only once. >> When were you made aware of that? I don't remember when. >> Do you recall who brought that to your attention? >> Somebody in the company probably. I don't remember specifically who. >> Do you recall how he was holding himself out to be part of Victoria's Secret? >> He was a talent scout looking for models. >> Did you ever have the sense that Mr. Epstein had a certain um odd interest in Victoria's Secret? >> No. >> Would he discuss the models at Victoria's Secret with you? >> No. >> Would he ask you to attend Victoria's Secret fashion shows? >> Would he ask me? >> Correct. >> No. Did you ever personally invite him to any Victoria's Secret fashion shows? >> No, >> I never invited him to any business event along the fashion show. Do you or sorry let me rephrase. Are you aware of how Mr. Epstein would have been able to attend Victoria Secrets events if not invited by you? I would presum you would have called somebody in the business and said, "Could I come? Could I get a ticket?" We were I know that we were for business reasons very careful about the audience that was there and about I guess twothirds of the audience were employees, store managers, people that had you know done heroic things inside the brand because it was a a big company event and all the CEOs of all the companies in the company were invited and so the people that were outside the company wasn't what I was concerned about. I was more concerned about internally that that people came or that should come or were at least invited because if if not it would have been like the right thing to do. >> My answer is I really don't know. Are you aware of Jeffrey Epstein having any other contacts within Victoria's Secret specifically, executives or anyone of that such? >> I'm sure you knew people or would reach out to people in the business, but I don't know. >> Did you ever make executives at Victoria Secret aware that you would prevent Mr. Epste from coming to any fashion shows or around any models? >> Are you aware of Mr. Epstein bringing any women to Victoria's Secret to potentially model for Victoria's Secret? >> No. Do you know who John Luke Brunell is? >> Never heard of him. >> Did you ever take a recommendation from Mr. Epstein or Miss Maxwell about hiring young women or girls for any of your companies or subsidiaries thereof? >> No. >> Did Mr. Epstein ever um suggest to you that he could find models on your behalf for Victoria's Secret? >> Nope. Did you ever consider cutting ties with Mr. Epstein um professionally or personally after he was caught lying that he was a uh scout for Victoria's Secret? I guess the answer would be if I thought he was, I would have fired him. I am now going to enter as majority exhibit six um a letter from a birthday book compiled for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday in January of 2003. I will give you a second to familiarize yourself with the letter. >> Uh six Um, Mr. Wexner, is this letter familiar to you? >> I have seen it before. Yes. >> Where have you seen it before? um part of the I think the documents preparation for today's uh meeting. >> Um did you yourself write this letter to Mr. Epstein? >> Sadly I did. >> Did Miss Maxwell approach you to write this letter for Mr. Epstein's birthday? I think the request was to write a card or a note or something for a birthday book. >> And did did that come from Miss Maxwell? >> I don't remember. >> Um, Mr. Wexner, would you please read the main body of the birthday note for the record, please? >> I wanted to get you what you want. So, here it is. Happy birthday, your friend Lesie. >> And What was your understanding of what Mr. Epstein would want? >> He he was a bachelor, so he drew a pair of boobs. >> Um, you've >> as a kind of a joke and off-handedly I'd say understand. >> Um, I hope you do. >> You've uh you said a few times throughout this deposition today that you did not consider Mr. Epstein, a friend of yours. However, you signed this letter, and I quote, "Your friend Leslie." Um, why would you sign your friend Leslie to someone you did not consider to be a friend of yours? >> I don't know. I normally say less, not lessly either, when I write notes. And, you know, I guess I I could I can't explain why I would say you're friend because we weren't friends. Did you ever speak to Miss Maxwell directly about this particular letter? >> No. >> Did you ever speak to Mr. Epstein directly about this particular letter? >> No. >> Was this letter something that you would commonly send um for lack of better term business associates? No, of course not. >> I was trying to be funny. I'm going to mark as majority exhibit 7 a photo. Give you a second to review. One more. One more. Are you in this photo? >> Yes. >> And Mr. Epstein is also in this photo? >> Yes. >> And a third individual is redacted in this photo? >> Yes. >> Do you have any way of knowing who the redacted individual in this photo is? >> I know who the redacted person is in this photo. Who is that redacted person? >> My wife. >> Understood. Um, do you recall the >> man in the back is Peter Lerson and the picture was taken in Bremen when the boat was launched. We got a bunch of pictures of the boat launching. >> Uh, do you recall what year that was? We had two children probably three or four years after we were married. >> And did you invite Mr. Epstein to this boat launch party or event? >> That's I recall. >> Can you recall who would have invited Mr. Epstein to this event? >> No. >> >> It is 2:08 and the majority will end this hour now and go off the record. We can go back on the record. Welcome back. Got just a couple of follow-ups about some things you've already touched on. Uh the New York City House. Um, do you remember when Epstein first had some kind of ownership interest in the home? I >> think he may have said after 1993. >> Yeah. But I sold it to him, but I don't remember the date. >> The the sale is reported as 1998. As far as you know, would that be the first time that Mr. Epstein had any kind of ownership of the home? >> Do you know? I don't know. But this thing you could tell me any date. I I know was after we were married and whether it was a year or two, I don't remember. But >> was that 1993? >> We got married in 93. >> Yes. >> Do you recall at all Mr. Epstein talking about why he wanted the home? >> No. With respect to the home, I think you were asked whether you felt like the sale price was a fair deal for the for you and I think your answer was yes. Is that right? >> Yes, that's right. And with respect to the plane, I think you were asked whether you felt like company got a fair deal at 6 million and I think you said yes. Is that right? >> Yes, that was because that was the asking price. >> I think the your councils represented to DOJ in 2019 that Mr. Epstein sold himself both those assets at deeply discounted prices and that that was part of his theft from you. >> I never heard that before. >> Do you have any sense of of why that discrepancy would exist? >> Not a clue. >> In terms of Mr. Ebstein's repayment to you. I think your council's also represented that he repaid you about $100 million in 2008. Would you have any knowledge of exactly how much he repaid you or how? >> No. >> There were a few other physical assets I just wanted to quickly touch on. >> Sure. There was a second home in New York City at 11 East 71st Street. So, it's right next to the home that we've been discussing. And it sounds like you bought the home in 1988. Epstein bought the home from you in 1992. Do you have any recollection of that home? >> Take the time. >> Are you saying two homes in New York next to each other? >> Yeah, right next to it. The address for this one would have been 11 East 71st Street. >> No recollection of that happening. >> There was and still is a condo building at 301 East 66th Street in New York. It's been reported that Epstein lodged many of his victims at that building. Uh, the reporting has also been that you once owned that building and that you sold it to Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, in the early 90s. Do you have any recollection of that? >> The building or the condo? >> The building. >> No, >> no recollection. >> With respect to I think what we understand to be two homes in New Albany that Mr. Epstein owned at one point or another. So, so there was first a home on the 7500 block of King George Drive that Epstein received from you in 1990. Do you have any recollection of that home? >> I know he bought a house from Jack Kessler. This the one we've mentioned before. That's the only one I know about. >> Got it. This, I think, is a separate home and was earlier in time. >> No. >> Okay. >> No recollection. that second home. Uh, and I think you mentioned that Mr. Epstein bought it from Mr. Kesler. I think the the the documents show that it was a a company that Epstein bought the home from, and I'll represent to you that it was you who signed the deed to Epstein. Would you have any knowledge about why that might have been the case? >> I understand the question. I signed the deed to sell the house to Jack to sell Jack Kesler's house to Jeffrey. >> Yeah. And it was in your capacity representing an entity of some kind that seems to have been associated with yourself and Mr. Kesler. >> Just shocking. >> Okay. >> >> Does that occur to you that stuff like that could be just four juries? >> I think in this case >> he asked the question. >> No, I mean I just it's like it's okay. >> Me signing a deed to somebody else's house is just >> That's okay. Okay. I'm sorry. >> And the entity uh for that sale was JW and CPKN company. Does that ring any bells for you? >> No. >> What is the the history of that home if you recall? In other words, was it originally built for Mr. Kesler to live in? Was it his primary residence? >> Yeah. And what do you recall as the the purpose of the sale to Mr. Epstein? Why why would Jeffrey Epstein Why did he buy that home, if you recall? because I didn't recall that he bought it. I don't remember that. I know Jack had financial problems and he came to me and said, "I've got problems. I got to sell my house." That's all I recall about it. I don't think I was ever in the house. >> Do you recall Epstein purchasing it at the time? Were you aware of that? >> No, I wasn't. I'd like to ask a little bit about your personal relationship with Mr. Epstein. Um, some of the reporting has described you as close. I think that's been mentioned earlier today. I would just like to ask about a few examples that have been reported and just understand your knowledge of them. >> Sure. >> Um, the New York Times, for example, has reported that sometime in the late 80s, Mr. Epstein managed the design and construction of your yacht, the Limitless. Do you have any recollection of that being the case? Furthest thing from the truth. >> Not true. I worked on the design for 10 years. Me, and it took three years to build the And the only person that was there beside me watching the construction was Abigail. Period. and a gentleman who represented himself to the New York Times as your former captain Craig Tofoya. Yeah. >> Seemed to be uh of the understanding that Mr. Epstein had a role in designing the yacht. Mr. Tofoya, from your point of view, Mr. Toya is simply mistaken. >> Absolutely mistaken. You wanted to I could draw it in detail for you right now. The the Wall Street Journal has reported that Mr. Epstein would sometimes do personal tasks for you, uh, such as helping your wife Abigail find a nanny or showing up at a restaurant with a gift for a mutual friend. Do you have any knowledge or recollection of those types of activities? >> Never happened. >> No recollection or you believe that th those things did not happen? I have no recollection and believe they never happened. >> Annity Fair has reported that Mr. Epstein once broke up with a woman for you here in Columbus by going to her house. This, of course, was before you met your wife. Do you have any knowledge or recollection of that? >> No. >> Did it Did I break up with a woman? Yes. >> Did Mr. Epstein performed the act directly or indirectly. I'd like to introduce as minority exhibit G. an email from 2006. I'll give you a moment to look at it. I'll only be asking about a very short part, but feel free to scan it. What it looks like is an email from Mr. Epstein to somebody with a limited brands address. D Larson. I don't know if you would have an idea of who that probably is. >> My admin, Don Larson. >> Great. Can we have a chance to just read the email? >> Sure. Of course. >> Thanks. I forgot a new nail this time. And at a certain point, I'll just direct your attention to a sentence. >> Yeah. No, that's fine. Let's just He's not on this. So, >> yeah. So, get it. >> At the very end of this email, Mr. Waxner, uh I would say close to the very end, there's a sentence that starts with, I believe that this information And if you see that, >> I'm sure your council can guide you to it. >> And I'll read that out loud. >> This is a long email seems to relate to to business topics and people, but Epstein signs off by saying, "I believe that this information belongs to you and under gang stuff rules, I cannot simply be the repository of people's hushed calls and not share with you." And the uh subject of the email is for less's eyes only. Please do not circulate. So the phrase gang stuff rules, is that a familiar phrase to you in this context? Jeffrey was like a Brooklyn guy and he in hindsight he didn't use words like have a confidential discussion or my opinion or this is secret or private or confidential personal things that lawyers or accountants might use in normal language. He would say this is gang stuff. >> Got it. So but that was just how he talked. >> So it was a phrase that Mr. Epstein would use to mean confidential conversations >> to me. Yes. >> Okay. And this I >> never use the other words which in hindsight I didn't but my wife would never say it's between us dear you know we just their words or phrases that you associate with some people and to me it was just kind of funny that this Brooklyn guy would talk about gang stuff and you know gang stuff might be what he eat for dinner or something. Would he use that phrase pretty commonly whether it's in a verbal conversation or a written email? >> I don't specifically remember, but I would I don't think he ever said confidential or private. It was like his language. Thank you. >> With respect to We can move on from that email. With respect to the power of attorney that you gave Mr. Epste in 1991, I know it was discussed earlier. Could you just flesh out for us a little bit u the theory of an unfettered power of attorney? In other words, it wasn't conditional or restricted to a particular account or particular type of asset. covered as we understand it all of your assets which is an enormous I think step of trust. What is your recollection of of why you made that choice? I think power of attorney is that so the notion of having a a limited power of attorney was kind of and that's just not how I would think about it. So Harold had a power of attorney, Jeffrey had a power of attorney, Dennis Hersh had a power of attorney because they needed it to do their work. >> And that's did the adviser, as you recall, it sounds like the the previous adviser before Mr. Epstein and the subsequent adviser after Mr. Epstein both had the same scope of power of attorney. >> I don't know specifically, but I would think they were. I don't recall what the words say, but I think power of attorney is that we've uh seen reporting, I think in the New York Times, that you accompanied Mr. Epstein to visit the White House in 1993, a few months after President Clinton took office. Do you have any recollection of that? >> Absolutely. Didn't happen. didn't happen. >> Well, I'd been at the White House, but the only time I was at the White House when Clinton was president, he invited a group of like 20 CEOs from around the country to get feedback on the economy. And that was said, um, and I was there like the president of one of the lumber companies, the chairman of JP Morgan, Sears, companies like that. I was kind of this the smallest fish in that bowl, but it was that purpose. >> And Mr. Epstein was not present. >> Of course not. >> So, as far as you know, you did not visit the White House under any administration with Mr. Epstein. >> I never visited the White House under any administration under any circumstance with Mr. Epstein. Okay. >> That I'm positive of. The New York Times has also reported that at your 59th birthday party, Mr. Epstein acted as sort of a master of ceremonies. You would give toasts and introduce guests and arranged for some people such as Alan Dersuitz and Simone Perez to attend. Do you recall the party that I'm describing? >> Well, Shiman was at a couple of birthday parties. I don't remember Jeffrey being there. If the party was in Columbus, I probably could remember four or five of the people that were there that it was a surprise to. >> Do you recall, I suppose, at any birthday party, but that one in particular, Mr. Epstein playing that sort of a role as a master of ceremonies of sorts? No, I'm thinking even at at the the party I was thinking about with Shimon press. I don't if you ask me who was there, he wouldn't have been on the list. It's not who I remember. It was a different kind of group of friends that Abigail picked to come to the party. >> But to the original question, do you recall Mr. Epstein ever acting as a master of ceremonies at a birthday party for you? >> No, absolutely not. Never. >> You going to keep quoting the New York Times? >> It's a good thing I don't read newspapers very often. That's crazy. Like to introduce as minority exhibit H. I'll give you a moment to look this over. It's just one page. Three copies. Stand. So, this is a a file that was part of the recent DOJ release, and it's some kind of draft or fully composed email from Mr. Epstein. It appears to be intended for you. We do not have knowledge of whether you ever received it. Did you ever receive this email? >> Sorry, just for the record, did you ever receive this email? >> I never received this email >> letter or whatever it was. >> Understanding that you have not received it and therefore have not previously seen it. Is that correct? Other than anything that council may have shown him, >> I would like to touch on a few discreet parts of it. Um, Mr. Epstein at one point early in the email says that quote, "I owe a great debt to you as frankly you owe to me." Would you have any sense of why he might feel that way in general or did he ever express that type of a sentiment to you? >> No. When I saw this, like I know what you do or people do, they write letters to the file. I've never written one like a memo to myself. And so I read this and I thought this is like cover your ass kind of thing and it just doesn't even sound the way he speaks and just nonsense in it. He also said, quote, "As I'm sure you recall, you didn't sit with your mother or sister or Sharon when the conflict arose as I did it for you. You didn't sit with Jack Kesler, Stanley, or Stanley's son. I did it for you." Do you have any sense of what Mr. Epstein might be referring to there? >> Well, I don't know what he's referring to about my mother or my sister. I know who Sharon was. Stanley, I presume, was uh our previous attorney. Uh Stanley Schwarz and his son worked in our business and you know, worked in it until he retired. So that I don't know what that was talking about. >> Did you ever ask Mr. Epstein to mediate a dispute or otherwise insert himself into a dispute with the individuals he mentioned here? Your mother or sister or Sharon, for example? >> No. Mr. Epstein also says that quote Abigail and I sat. She asked many questions. She made many unfair, aggressive, and false accusations, none of which could have been fully answered without violating a confidence with you. Firstly, do you have an understanding of what he's referring to in terms of Abigail and he having a conversation? >> My wife and I have no secret. the fact that he's having a se, it's just nonsense. >> He goes on to say that you and I had gang stuff for over 15 years, a great deal of it that she was unaware of. I had no intention of divulging any confidence of ours, no matter what accusations she made. So, Mr. Epste at least seems to be asserting that there was something confidential between you and he that your wife was not aware of. Do you have any sense of what that might be? No, >> I'm going to object to the whole thing. This is why we have the hearsay rule, but keep going. >> Mr. Epstein goes on to say the quote, "I always told you I would never under any circumstances give it up or put you in harm's way, no matter who, what, or when." Do you have any sense of what he might be referring to there? >> And I'll need a verbal audible. >> No, absolutely not. And this is cover psycho babble as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to do one more exhibit on your personal relationship with Mr. Epstein. So this will be minority exhibit I I'll just tell you briefly what this is. Okay. It It's long and you're not going to have to read it. It's a PowerPoint presentation that the FBI put together, it looks like, within the last year, summarizing their investigations into Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell. It's just their summary of the steps they took during their investigation and who was charged with what. That's that's what the document is. There is one page of the document that mentions you, and I'll direct you to that. It is all the way toward the back. >> Reason I'm so I've never seen an FBI document, but I'm thinking, should he be giving this to me? >> So, there's one page towards the back that ends in 956. I think it's the third from the last page of the presentation. >> There's an earlier reference on 949. Oh, >> right. Confirming the proper apologies. There is agreed. >> Which page you want me to look at? >> Ending in 956. The only substantive uh mention of you. >> Yes. >> You can see this is a slide that's titled prominent names and it's naming some prominent individuals who have some connection or link to Mr. Epstein. Your name appears in the middle column all the way down in the bottom >> and under Les Wexner. It just has one entry. There's a name that's redacted and it's redacted name stated Epstein earned his money from having homosexual sex with Wexner. I know you were asked this question earlier, but in the context of this FBI report, is it correct that you did not have any sexual or romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein? >> Absolutely not. Or any man ever? I'm very straight. Super straight. >> Thank you. That's waggy. Do we get to keep? >> No. I just never read an FBI report. Go ahead. Uh, thank you, Mr. Wexter, for uh, your testimony here today. Just wanted to start with a question uh, around um, US Senator John Husted and um, it's been reported that you gave him uh, something like 117,000 in donations. Is that correct? >> I think you mean John Houston. I'm John Houston. Yeah. >> I don't know how much money I gave him. >> Would that sound about right? A substantial sum. >> Well, I'm thinking I met John when he was a state representative. I'm sure I helped him. I helped him >> politically when he ran for lieutenant governor. Uh I probably contributed to cur senatorial campaign. So is it possible over time I would have given him that much money? It is. >> Well, let me maybe I think it was recently reported that you gave him $17,000 uh sometime shortly before he voted no on releasing the Epstein files. Would that sound familiar? >> No. >> No. Um did you or any of your representatives ever lobby Senator Houston or anybody else in the federal government uh to pre prevent the release of materials related to the Jeffrey Epstein? >> Absolutely not. Uh did you or your representatives uh ever request that the Department of Justice redact your name in any files? >> Absolutely not. >> Wanted to move on. Um now I I remember the document we we referenced a little earlier mentioning uh former prime minister Ahood Barack. Um did you ever have a relationship with the former prime minister? >> Just can you define relationship? >> I'm sure do do any relationship. Do do you know the per do you know Prime Minister Barab? Uh how if so could you elaborate on how familiar you were with him? >> Well, I was only with him a couple or three times in my life. I happened to be in Israel uh when he was elected, but before he was sworn in as prime minister, we had a brief meeting in his uh like political office. It wasn't the government office. May have met him in Israel wings prime minister but don't recall. I know that I had dinner with him and I think his wife and daughter and Abigail >> in New York after he was out of office. I think I don't think he was prime minister. >> Did you ever communicate with the prime minister outside of personal meetings, phone calls, emails? He came here once, I think, for Jewish community stuff, and we went to a football game. That's all I remember. >> Did you ever communicate by email or phone call or other correspondence? >> No, I don't think I ever had his address or phone number, email address or text number or whatever. >> Um, did are you aware of the Wexner Foundation or any other trusts or foundations or organizations affiliated with you uh ever donating money uh to the former prime minister? No. >> Uh, would it surprise you if I told you that an FBI report stated uh a report that the Wexner Foundation transferred at least $2.3 million in US dollars to former Prime Minister Aub? >> Shocked. Um, I want to move to a different topic here. Uh, are you familiar with the gentleman named Richard Adrien? Who? >> Richard Adrien? >> No. >> Um, do you ever do you remember anybody being a bodyguard from you by that name? No. >> No. 1991 to 1992. >> No. >> How many bodyguards have you had over the course of your uh career? >> I don't. >> Hundreds. Dozens? >> No, not hundreds, but >> dozens. Okay. Now, Mr. Adrian reported that uh he had accompanied you between 1991 and 1992 when he was your bodyguard uh to Epstein's Palm Beach home. Does that sound familiar at all? >> Objection. That's not what it says. >> That he accompanied Mr. Epstein, M Mr. Westerner to Epstein's property in >> No, it doesn't say that. Are you looking at at >> the PA 1241249191? >> Yeah, it should >> I don't have it in front of me like that. >> It it No, it says it says that he did accompany him and then it says the bodyguard was at the Epstein residence. It doesn't say the bodyguard was at the Epstein residence with Mr. >> Wexter. He I'm sorry. Did did you ever accompany uh the bodyguard to uh Epstein's Palm Beach home? >> Everywhere when they hit security. >> And so what surprised you then? I I believe that this is correct that the bodyguard said that he noticed a number of young girls there. Noticeably young. You ever you you'd never seen young girls at the Epstein property? >> I was only there once for an hour and there with my wife and another couple. >> I have one last question. Um and then I'll kick it back. Um, you mentioned a couple times that you received $20 million for the mansion on 71st Street in Manhattan. Uh, how was that money transferred to you? >> I don't know. >> You don't know? Like, nobody How do you know it was ever paid to you? >> Well, I guess Abigail would have known whether it was a check, whether it's a money order, whether it was, you know, a bag of money. I I have no >> So, $20 million and you just like take someone say so for it. >> No. No. $20 million is a lot of money and I you airplanes cost a lot of money too and I don't know exactly how we pay for them or if we sold an airplane exactly how we get paid but you know we've bought and sold personally a few airplanes and I you could ask me the same question I don't know >> and so I I think um we have a number of u media references New York Times I think the Wall Street Journal Bloomberg all noting that uh no cash was transferred at the time of essential transaction no exchange of money was was noted at the time. Uh so do you have any records like after the fact after you learned that Jeffrey Epstein uh as you put it stole from you? Uh did you ever look into how that money was transferred to you? >> No. >> No. Didn't strike your interest even though you knew that Jeffrey Epste was stealing from you. >> Once I knew he was stealing from me, it was again my wife is a very competent business attorney. We have good accountants. I believe good counsel and that's not what I do and I I don't go back and you know if I fired somebody in the business I didn't follow them to see if they behaved badly again they were done that's just >> let me then follow up and ask did your wife ever mention to you that how the money was transferred no >> or that it was transferred >> objection as to spousal privilege but he's already answered >> all right thank you very much then question Steve Lance math officials. How long did you know uh Mr. Epstein? When did you when did you first meet him? >> I I think they asked me that question earlier before you joined this group. I think it was like five years before I got married about early 80s, I would guess. >> Early 80s, >> I think. So, I don't remember precisely. and and and in all the time that you knew him and he worked for you, he was your power of attorney, handled uh a lot of really important things in your life. Uh did you ever do you remember him ever having a romantic interest or or or women in your presence as his as his guests or or social. >> I mentioned earlier two. The the first one was Dr. Ava Anderson. I met her and Jeffrey said that sir >> when I first met her whenever that was early >> and uh my understanding meeting her was very attractive woman. I think she was in med school. So, and you know, so she was a serious person and >> she is a serious person. She's an oncologist. She's married. She has children. >> Okay. >> And then I don't know how many years later he broke up with Ava and Glenn came into his life probably about the time I got engaged. And >> when was that, sir? >> I got engaged in nine I got engaged on September 8th, 1992 because I I got engaged on my birthday. >> And so at that point, uh, Mr. Epstein's relationship with Gain Maxwell was romantic at the time. >> It was about then that I met her and they said they were going to get married. It was um you know I was getting married you know Jeffrey was getting married so it seemed like you know everybody was going to be in Happy Valley alley in in terms of their life and and both women uh I mean they were grown up women. Galen is exactly the same age as Abigail and very smart. She said she was like an honors graduate of Cambridge or Oxford and you know quite charming and you know you know accent and and an attractive woman. So I was very happy for them. Do you ever remember spending time with Epstein, any of his other romantic interests or girlfriends, especially uh younger women in your presence? >> No, that there were no others that I was present >> that were mentioned >> ever. ever in his presence with uh women who may have been of teenage or minors. You know, I thought about that what I what did I miss about this guy and I don't think I was ever with him or he was ever with anyone. It was vague in my memory that I would say it was under the age of 28 30. I mean, he he was with adult women >> or women that they looked adult. They said they were a lawyer, an accountant or something. >> I know this name has come up earlier in the deposition. Virginia Dre Juprey, I'm sorry. Uh, do you recall ever meeting her in Jeffy's presence? >> Absolutely never. Okay. >> I don't. or or Virginia Roberts, I think her are made in England. >> No, absolutely not. >> How about Miss Farmer? I thought Miss Farmer might have made allegations about something that happened here uh on your property. >> We have We've actually covered it. It wasn't his property. It's an adjacent property. >> An adjacent property. Thank you for the clarification. Or certainly >> Yeah. No. On on the next door. >> No. Never. Was that Mr. >> Kesler? >> Wh whose property is next door? I'm sorry. >> My friend My friend part was business business partner in New Alman. Jack Kesler. >> Um so no women who seemed unusually young then. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. We also understand from coun your council's profer uh that you interacted with a number of other prominent people who who knew and had dealings with with Epstein including Prince Andrew uh various professors at Harvard uh perhaps uh a sultan of some sort in Dubai perhaps Howard Lutnik um with with respect to Prince Andrew, uh, who has also been accused of of of sexual misconduct in in in connection with at least one woman trafficked by Mr. Epstein. Did you ever see or or become aware of this interaction between Prince Andrew and one of these young women? I I never met Prince Andrew, >> so I wasn't aware of anything other than >> No, no chatter about that in terms of uh you're dealing with Mr. e either introduced by Mr. Epstein or by Galileain Max. Uh that whole interaction between those two and and Prince Andrew. for that. >> I had no conversations, interactions with Prince Andrew about women or anything. I had one brief like two sentence fun conversation. He called me here in Columbus. >> What was that for? >> I I It's to me it's a funny story. I'm getting ready to go to work. I think I was in the garage and my wife or somebody came out and said, "You have a phone call." Maybe it wasn't my wife, but it was somebody. They said, "It's a guy that says he's the Duke of York." And I thought, "The Duke of York? What the hell is that?" So, I went in the kitchen. Hello. This This is Andrew uh I don't think he said I don't think he said this is Andrew Duke of York. This is Andrew Windsor or whatever he called himself. And I said, "Hello." and he said, "Uh, you know, I helped my mother buy her airplane and I know that you buy and sell airplanes, so if I could be of service, uh, with you and airplane transactions, I could help." And I said, "No, thank you. We're covered and have a nice day." And I'm just kind of laughed my ass off that the Duke of York called me about. >> So, he cold called you to sell you an airplane or to help you buy an airplane? It was airplane advice because he'd helped us >> plane that you eventually sold to Mr. Abs. >> Oh, no, no, no. It was just had nothing to do with anything was going on. It was like, I know that you buy and sell airplanes in your business. I know you have buy an airplane personally and I know you buy and sell airplanes and when you do, if you need an advisor, I'm available. It's like, no, thank you. I'm covered. >> So, he offered to advise you on on purchasing airplane. >> Pardons, >> did he? He offered to advise you. I'm just trying to understand why the Prince of York would be calling you about >> Yeah, me too. It It was like out of the blue. I mean, you could have called me up that day and said you were the Prince of York and you want to advise me on my lunch or something. I was like, "What the hell is this?" You would have recognized the difference in accents. >> Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. uh and and respect to those other figures who I mentioned, did you ever see or become aware of any any prominent academic figures or this so-called sultan of uh Dubai or Howard Lutnik or any other notable person uh uh being introduced uh to young women by either Epstein or Maxwell. >> Well, I've never met Howard Blutnik. Didn't know his name till he became popular or you know in the news. >> Yeah, his name's extensively in the wrong but for I just never heard his name didn't know him. Some of the people that were on that list, I I knew their names and some of them introduced themselves to me. >> But that wasn't his question. >> I understand answers, >> wasn't it? No. Oh, cuz you asked me. I thought you asked them, but I knew this. >> Any any other of those prominent individuals? Uh, were you aware that either Epstein or or Gileain Maxwell was was facilitating introductions or or contact between those individuals and and young women? >> No. No. Absolutely not. >> Um, and you yourself, sir, uh, never had physical contact with any of these young uh, survivors or victims as as they are alternatively called these young ever. All right, I think that's all I have. Thank you. >> Just two more, then we'll give you a break. Uh, first with respect to the birthday note that we looked at earlier for Mr. Epstein's birthday. >> Just making sure we have your testimony. It's that you signed the note, your friend, but Mr. Epstein was not ever actually your friend from your point of view. Is that correct? >> Correct. And you do not have any understanding of why you would sign that card. Your friend, I think I was sending a birthday note to somebody. I say your friend or something. I wouldn't just sign my name. It would be like a I don't know. It's not a salutation, is it? It's the end of a letter or something. Yours truly best. something like that. >> Do you recall ever drawing a pair of women's breasts on any correspondence with any other business associate of yours? >> No. >> We can go off the record. >> We will go on the record. It's 3:12 p.m. Um, Mr. Wexner, I am going to ask you to bear with me for a second. I have a list of names. I will ask you um one question that applies to that to the entirety of the list and you will just answer yes or no. And if you answer yes to one of the names, we will come back to further explore that name. Does that make sense? >> I think so. Let's try it. see how it works. >> So, the question is, have you ever had a conversation with any of the following people about Jeffrey Epstein, his crimes, his criminal investigations, or in regard to sexual activity of any kind? >> Okay. So, not have you ever had a conversation with them, but have you had a conversation with them about those topics? Do you want to repeat it so that we are solid here? Sure. Have you ever had a conversation with any of the following people about Jeffrey Epstein, his crimes, his criminal investigations, or in regard to sexual activity of any kind? The first name is Gilan Maxwell. >> No. >> Richard Khan, >> no. >> Darren Indk. >> No. >> Sarah Kellen. >> No. Leslie Grath, >> no. >> Nadia Marson Kova, >> no. >> Kathy Rumler, >> no. >> Andrew Mountbatton Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew, >> no. >> Peter Mandlesson, former UK ambassador to the United States. >> Steven Hoffenberg, >> no. John Luke Bernell. Nope. >> Jess Staley. >> Nope. >> Paul Morris. >> Nope. >> Steven Cutler. >> Nope. >> Mary Casey. >> No. >> Justin Nelson? >> No. >> Leon Black? >> No. >> Glenn Dubin? Eva Anderson Duban kind of put those as question marks because I think I'll tell you the answer later because I want to be completely >> understood. >> You know, >> uh, Bill Gates, >> no. Any person elected or appointed to any federal office? >> Nope. >> Any foreign government officials? >> Nope. >> Um, so you said you wanted to clarify on Glenn Dubin and Eva Anderson Dubin. >> You have clarification on that? >> Yeah, I know both of them. I met Ava when I thought she and Jeffrey were engaged and going to get married. and I met Glenn uh at Harvard I don't know 10 or maybe 20 years ago because he was acquainted with someone there and I was at David know it might have been David Gurgens's funeral something like that and I saw them and I hadn't seen them in I don't know 10 or 15 years and they sat alone said something isn't this a shame what happened to Jeffrey and I said yeah it's a shame something like that it was that vague but most of the names that you mentioned I've never heard before I don't know those people >> um with Glenn Dublin you said it was you know 10 to 20 years ago at Harvard um when you mentioned Eva Anderson Dublin, you said you thought she was engaged to Jeffrey Epstein. Do you know approximately when that was? >> About the time I got engaged to Abigail, so about 92. >> Okay. >> But I haven't seen either of them until David Gurgens's funeral for maybe a decade. had talked to him, never socialized with him. >> Can we just clarify something? Because I think you previously testified that when you met Miss Maxwell, it was around the time of your engagement to Abigail, >> right? Didn't I just say that? >> No, you were talking about Ava Anderson. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. That I got I met Ava about the time I got. How could that be? I must have met Ava when I met Jeffrey and then met Glenn when I got engaged. That's >> so Ava would have been um >> 10 years >> early to mid 80s. >> Yeah. Whenever it was and I think I was only with her once with them once. So, you never, just to um clarify one more name on here, you never spoke with uh Gilan Maxwell about Mr. Epste or his criminal investigations of any kind. >> Never. Um, it had come out a few years ago now that Ohio State University did a review of their donations and they identified um a little over $300,000 in donations directly from Mr. Epstein and one of his foundations. They also Ohio State also reported a gift of approximately two and a half million from the COQ Foundation which is another entity of Mr. Epstein's. Um did you help facilitate any donations from Jeffrey Epstein to Ohio State University? >> Never. >> Did you personally ask Mr. Epste to donate to Ohio State University? >> Never. Do you ever speak to any Ohio State University Board of Trustees members regarding Mr. Epste or his donations to the university? >> Never. Um, we discussed earlier in this deposition um around the time frame of 2019 if you had any involvement with um law enforcement as they investigated Mr. Epstein for his crimes he was ultimately charged with in New York. Um, just to clarify, did you speak to any law enforcement agency of any kind regarding Jeffrey Epstein's investigation in New York in 2019? >> Never. Didn't. Now, I don't remember ever talking to any law enforcement agency. Did you ever provide any documentation to any law enforcement agency of any kind regarding Jeffrey Epstein and his investigation in New York in 2019? >> Not to my knowledge. And just to be clear, you never formally interviewed with anyone from the FBI or Department of Justice about Jeffrey Epstein or his criminal investigation in 2019? >> Never. >> Did Mr. Epste ever contact you or attempt to contact you after his arrest in 2019? I don't think so. He was dead. >> Well, before he died. >> No, I mean dead with me. Understood. >> Did anyone affiliated with Mr. Epstein ever reach out to you in 2019 regarding his investigation in New York? >> Never. No. >> >> How did you first learn of Jeffrey Epstein's death in the MCC in New York City? >> Probably watching CNN. No one directly contacted you about his death? >> No one ever contacted me about Jeffrey's death. >> Did you ever have any reason to believe um that Mr. Epstein's life was in any sort of danger? >> No. >> You um mentioned in what is majority exhibit three? Majority exhibit three. um your statement from this morning. Um on page three in the second to last paragraph, last sentence, while others visited Epstein in jail and associated with him after his release, I did not. Are you aware of who did in fact visit Mr. Epstein in jail during that time >> directly? David Gurgen told me he did after he did. >> And can you um remind us who David Gurgen is? >> David Gurgen was um professor of practice at the Kennedy School. He was adviser for presidents of the United States TV personality. >> And um did he tell you >> my friend, >> sorry, sorry to cut you off. Um did Mr. Gergen tell you anything about his visit to Mr. Epste while he was incarcerated. >> No, he he just told me that he and his wife visited Jeffrey and asked me if I did and I said, "No, I wouldn't visit that son of a bitch." Asked him why he did. >> Uh, did Mr. Gurgen inform you as to why he went to visit Mr. Epstein while he was incarcerated? get surprisingly said like you know sometimes people that you're acquainted with get into trouble and and you should be kind or nice to them something that vague which seemed completely out of character for Gurgen. >> Did you um what was your response to Mr. Gurgen when he posed that to you? >> I think I said I'm surprised at you, David. Um, I'm going to switch gears a little bit here. Um, you mentioned that David Gergen was a friend of yours. Um, how do you characterize that Mr. Gurgen was a friend? What made him a friend to you? we probably met uh when he went to the Kennedy School from his job at the White House. And so he was like a professor of practice in the um center of public leadership and then he became the director of the center of public leadership. And that was one of my main one of my main interests is public leadership and uh we became friends and from very different backgrounds. I didn't have much of an education. Yo, Harvard, you know, working in the White House. And we became very close friends. And his wife reminded me after his funeral that we would talk every Sunday. And I it was it's like I know you might have friends or acquaintances you talk to regularly. I didn't even realize that we did that. We'd share books, talk about what was going on in the world. And it was just it was very much a part of my life. Uh, and he was a wonderful person. >> So, he was someone you would communicate with frequently. Well, about if I was bitched out about the government, I'd call David or we'd, you know, be talking about what was going on in the CPL and, you know, we would talk about fundraising for CPL or interviewing professors for CPL and, you know, raising money for fellowships that it was pretty much focused about government public interest things because that we had in common. I wasn't he was a lawyer and you know, I I sold apparel. Would you say that you talked to Mr. Gurgen more frequent frequently than you talked to Mr. Epstein? >> Oh, yes. >> Of course, prior to you and Mr. Epstein terminating your >> Yeah, I I talked to him more regularly. I wouldn't have remembered the repetition or the the the curiosity. Uh Anne Gurgen told me that after David's death how much he looked forward to our Sunday calls and I I don't know as you get older sometimes you look back and somebody touches your life and you don't realize you know that you're calling him every Sunday because I was just you know like you brush your teeth every Sunday I'd call him or he'd call me. >> Um apologies going to switch gears quite a bit here. Um, we were discussing a lot earlier that uh the property that Mr. Epstein had owned that was um believe you characterize as adjacent to your property, formerly Jack Kesler's house. When at any point did um people need to use your gates or go through your property to access that house? >> No. of the properties were connected. There was kind of a a woods between them and fields. There was no driveway. They were separate. Um it would be a struggle to walk between the two on foot. >> Understood. Um, speaking about uh your boat design and manufacturer and boat launch has been uh mentioned a couple times here today. Did Mr. Epstein ever um travel with you or board your yacht at any point? >> Not that I recall. >> Did Miss Maxwell ever travel with you on that boat at any point? Absolutely not. >> Were there any other boat trips that you and Mr. Epstein would have taken together at any point? >> None. >> Um, I don't think I ever went anywhere on that boat without my wife and family. >> Understood. Do you use any aliases or nicknames when you communicate with people you're associated with? >> No, less. >> Sometimes LHW that that's it. >> Um, are you aware of Mr. Epstein having any aliases or nicknames that he would commonly use? >> No. Are you aware of Miss Maxwell having any aliases or nicknames that she would commonly use? >> No. >> Um, when speaking about your boat, you seemed to be very certain that Miss Maxwell had had never taken any type of boat trip with you. Um, is there a reason why you were more sure about her not attending any boat trips with you? because I couldn't be I'm not sure that I know that Jeffrey didn't take any boat trips with me. That's for sure. And so I might not have perfect recall, but I'm positive he never took any boat trips. So I'm positive that she never took any boat trips because I only saw her a couple times in my life. >> Understood. Um, are you aware of back up first um, Mr. Epstein uh, did a lot of foreign travel? Would would you say that's an accurate statement? >> That's a kind of I want to answer because I don't want you to be tricking me. I thought he traveled a lot when he when I thought he traveled a lot. Once I knew he was abroad, I don't believe he traveled at all. He told me he was in Switzerland. He told me he was anywhere in the world. And I believed him that son of a could have been in bed. I didn't know where he was calling from. >> To the best of your knowledge, he would inform you that he was traveling all over the world. >> Oh, yeah. Saudi Arabia working for the king. and Switzerland talking to banks and I'm really busy and I'm tired and need to hang up. So he would he would reach out to me irrat say erratically and sometimes frequently but it and I I never believed that he I didn't I didn't sus if my wife told me she was in Chicago I would believe it. If my lawyer said he was in Columbus I would believe it. If I call Matt up, I don't ask my lawyer from Columbus. I say, "Are you in Columbus or are you, you know, in bed or wherever the hell you are?" And I think that was part of Jeffy's con. And I it just grinds the hell out of me that he was so busy, but I don't believe I don't believe any of it now. I think it was complete And it was part of the con. >> Understood. Um, >> is it fair to say that Mr. would um flout that he had foreign contacts, whether it be um foreign dignitaries or um you know contacts on foreign governments, something to that effect. >> Do you mean flaunt? >> Flaunt. Yes. Sorry. Long day. >> It's been a long day. >> Yes. >> Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Epstein holding um citizenships in any other countries other than the United States of America? >> No. >> Have you ever seen Mr. Epstein possess um any other foreign country's passport? >> No. >> Or any passport, including an American one? >> If Mr. Epste was um talking about connections he had with with foreign nations or entities. Um is there anyone he would most commonly refer to when speaking to you? He over the period of time mentioned a lot of them and some he would repeat at some periods some he would mention once but it's kind of a model of but it was a pretty regularly regular flow you know u was there anyone he mentioned more often than others more often. >> Maybe several times he'd mentioned the Queen of England. >> The Queen of England? >> Yeah. The one that died. Did you ever get the impression that Mr. Epstein was um trying to get close with people of power, influence, wealth to better shield himself from any type of scrutiny? >> No. It seemed to me that that was the meu that he operated in. And so it made sense to me in terms of advice he was giving me that he was dealing with the most sophisticated people and they were his clients. And so, um, based off that response, would would it be fair to say that you would believe that could be part of his con was touting all these connections he had all around the world? >> As I look back at it today, I'm positive it was his con. I mean, as positive as as I could know. I mean, the founders of Google, uh the the president of the United States, the king of Saudi Arabia, go on and on. I was almost, you know, every month I'm I'm off to do this with that or I'm going here and there. And he was in a trust position and foolishly I never questioned. He was just that it wasn't just they was bullshitting me or these weren't really his clients. And um is it your testimony today that if Jeffrey Epstein was enriched by his connection to you, that all of that enrichment was gained through theft, deceit, and or without your knowledge? I'm not sure I understand the question. But do I know where Jeffrey got his money? I know he stole money from us. I believed he had in substantial income from these makebelieve clients that afforded him the lifestyle that he had. It made that made sense to me. And um you were uh you got engaged in 1992. Do I have that correct? >> September 8th, 1992. >> And you were married then in um the following year, 1993. >> One, two, three. That's how I remember that one. And um at any point after your engagement and your um ultimate marriage, did you ever engage in any extrammarital uh affair or sexual contact with anyone other than your wife? >> No one. I'm really happy to ask that question. Um, that connected too. Um, is it Mr. Wexner, is it your testimony here today that um, Mr. Epstein's wealth came from not only yourself but also this extensive network of um of clients that also were wealthier otherwise influential individuals. >> No question. >> Absolutely. And you know, sitting here today, um, with the benefit of hindsight being 2020, how do you think that the United States Congress could prevent the crimes and in your words, cons Mr. Epstein and by extension, Miss Maxwell committed on uh victims around the world and specifically in the United States. Well, I would hope that uh this interview or whatever it is today would help you to understand that he was a crook and a con man. And in hindsight, you know, uh looking back, he would make Bernie Maid off look like a boy scout. So complete, so diabolical. I mean, just incredible, sinister. If I were giving the government advice, I told him the IRS to look into Jeffrey, he couldn't have made all that money and spent all that money, had the lifestyle he did, and be the crook that he was, and pay taxes. So if if he would do the things that he did to those women and do the things that he did to me, uh then anything is possible. I I believe. And so the you know if Al Capone got went to jail for for steal for being a crook and tax evasion, it would be so obvious to me today that now that I know Jeffrey's a crook and the things he did and the people he was associated with, there was a lot of money and he got it from a lot of people. I I can't believe that he had time to really work because he was playing so goddamn much and I never knew it. If it's my attorney or your attorney, I don't I don't know if you're I would assume your attorney, but if you had one and every time you talked to him and he said, "I'm in the office working on your stuff." I don't think you'd run over there to see whether he was working on your stuff or believe that he wasn't in the office. But the con was so terri just crazy. I mean, I I I've searched my memory and say, "Why didn't I pick up clues?" And I think he would have tr he could trick me all over again if I was, you know, if I was in that position of trust with someone like that. Really bad. I think unbelievable stuff to me now that I look back. People that he said he knew. Believe he knew him. people that he said he he worked for or where he went, but you don't do what he did and just rob one bank. You know, I think bank robbers rob a lot of banks. That's how I look at him. Are you um are you aware? Did any other individual um come to you at any point and make clear to you that they felt they had been defrauded or or otherwise wronged by Mr. Epstein in any way? >> No. And crazily enough, no one ever called for a reference. >> No one ever called you for a reference. >> Reference? >> No one. people would call that he said like the chief technologist of of Google and then a guy would call up and say he was the chief technologist of Google and I want to build a boat. So somebody says they know the chief technologist a guy calls you up and says hello I'm the chief technologist. I didn't I mean I could have been talking to an actor in hindsight. I mean that it's just I I don't think I've ever been conned before. I've seen movies about it. is I I think if if you if the government really understands that then a lot of things you'd be able to dig into that aren't the I just he he should be exposed. All right. I uh think that ends it for us right now. We'll go off the record. We can go back on the record. I've got just a few sort of individual cleanup questions about things we've talked about earlier. Uh I'll just move through them chronologically going all the way back to when you first hired Mr. Epstein, if you could just articulate what you recall about what you thought you were getting from him. You described what he ended up doing for you, but what did you understand yourself to be hiring him for at the time? I got to figure out what when I met Jeffrey I had somebody managing my personal stuff because there's just a lot of stuff suddenly complexity in my personal life and I didn't realize that I had so much complex until one day it's there. So to me it was my personal set of stuff is like one day it's cold and the next day it's a blizzard and I realize I've got houses and stuff that should be inventoried and you know bought buying a car selling a car but just a lot of stuff and hired Harold and just to make sure that I went somebody who had accounting not financial sense because I wasn't looking to make more money just someone to kind of manage things. And so today, I guess you'd call it a family office person because I wasn't looking for accounting and I wasn't looking for investment. I was just looking for someone to just make sure that everything was in order and nothing crazy was happening. And I had sensed that Jeffrey or that that Harold wasn't doing a good good enough job. just didn't have the bandwidth for the complexity and mentioned to Bob and Wendy that I just things were a mess or was worried they were a mess and then Gordon Samp drove down the street as I mentioned met him and asked him I don't know it was six months later a year later something talking to Bob and Wendy they said we should call him so I called him and said you remember when we met of uh you know I I I've got a guy running my stuff personal stuff because I want to keep business away from personal and would could you take a look at it you're smart you're financially oriented and he said it's not what I do but you know you're Wendy's friend you're Bob's friend I'll come and take a look so he started doing that and said Harold isn't very confident there nothing's a miss just it it's not tidied up the way you think you should way I think a professional would think things should be tidied in your financial personal life and I said you know well but you've been you know you looked at this what you know what do I owe you and again part of the con was I don't want to be paid and so after two years of him sorting it out cleaning it out I thought uh started to pay him for the work. I don't remember what it was at the time, but it in terms of professional fees and whatever, I thought it was fair and that's how it happened. So I I think it I'm giving you a long answer, but to understand in context because if I just say yes or no, you won't understand it. And I just I really want this whole group to understand it. And uh I never would have guessed I was being conned. Never. Ever. >> The deceit was so subtle. >> Yes. I know. >> Answer the question. >> Okay. >> I I'm sure we all appreciate the stories. We're just trying to to answer the questions they actually wanted to answer. >> That's very helpful. Thank you. >> I I hope it is. And could I ask you, I think you said in the last hour it was your understanding that Mr. Epstein, while he was working for you, also had other clients. Is that right? >> Yes. >> So would that mean that his work for you, you understood it to be part-time? I wouldn't describe it that way. You know, I knew it wasn't full. I thought it wasn't full-time because he had other clients of substance, real substance. >> As a listener, it sounds like substantial demands that you're describing. You were and of course are one of the wealthiest people in the country managing all of your personal affairs, I would think, would technically demand all of somebody's bandwidth. Sounds like that was an issue with the guy before Epstein. How was he able to do that job but also do work for other clients at the same time? Well, like Peg does the work now. Um, I I think you could supervise the work, uh, overview it, I think, which isn't the work that I do, and and say you could do really thorough work if you were doing it three or four days a month, certainly a week or a day, a a day a month, just focusing on these things because there were accountants and tax lawyers and other people. And then once and setting up as an example, I wouldn't I I didn't have the idea to inventory furniture or valuables. And it's like, how could you have all silverware in your house? And what? I didn't count forks and spoons. And it's like, Jeff, so people could be walking out with forks and spoons. Gee, that's a good idea. We ought to have an inventory. Then there was a I hired a lady to be like the house manager who had run the US embassy in Rome and she said, "Yeah, I know how to do this." And I said and I said, "Well, why don't we keep inventories of stuff?" And she said, "Yeah, I could do that." So she did that as that's kind of a puny example, but I wouldn't have had the idea, but then all the things were inventoried. That wasn't work for me or Jeffrey. It was just regularly done. answer the question. >> Okay. >> A discreet question on a different topic. Uh we know that at one point you owned a property in Palm Beach. It was a large oceanfront estate. We understand that you sold that estate to a guy named Abe Ghostman or Gossman. And that later Mr. Trump and Mr. Epstein got into a bidding war over that property. Do you have any knowledge of or did you have any involvement in that dispute between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Trump? >> No. >> Okay. >> I'd like to touch on a few specific allegations that have been made with respect to Mr. Epstein's crimes. Maria Farmer has been discussed several times today. I'll try not to repeat that too much, but there are a few aspects of her story that I did want to touch on with you. Miss Farmer has said that the home that we've discussed, you said Mr. Kesler sold it to Mr. Epstein. It's adjacent to your property. Miss Farmer has said that that home at the time was guarded by your security staff and at least one member of your security staff told the Washington Post that that was accurate at least at the time which I think was 1996. Do you have any sense of why this home that at that point was not on your property and wasn't your home would have been guarded by your security staff? >> Objection of the hearsay but answer. >> No. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not the home was guarded by your security staff either then or now? >> Then for sure not. My daughter lives there now with her husband. So I'm sure they pay attention to it, but I don't know for sure that cuz it's part of the family that they pay attention to it. But that's as close as I can get. >> When it was owned by Mr. Kesler and Mr. Epstein. You have no knowledge of whether or not it was guarded by your security staffs. >> I have no knowledge. I would doubt that it would frankly impossible. >> Does that sound strange at all? It sounds a little strange to us as readers and listeners that a home that is not yours would be affirmatively guarded by your security. >> Me, too. Miss Farmer says that she uh in the wake of her assault reached out to the county sheriff's office and that she was told quote we work for Wexner and the sheriff's office confirmed that at that time they were contracted to assist with your security detail. Do you have any sense of why that would have been the case? >> The same objection said you can answer. know that the closest I could get to that would be sometimes um people who work for county security, Columbus police force, we would use part-time police, you know, uh like at the at entrances or patrolling, but not they wouldn't been employees of ours. So, it's possible, but I didn't. It's weird. >> I don't know the sheriff. Could you elaborate for a moment on what would that part-time role have been like a special event? They would they would be at the entrance. >> Yeah, it would have been special events. Uh yeah, that that's very accurate. >> Okay. Uh Miss Farmer says that that summer when she wanted to leave the home, she had to call the main house, your house, and ask for your wife's permission. Do you have any knowledge about whether that's accurate? >> I have I doubt that it's accurate, and I have no knowledge. And I think you said earlier uh but just to make sure when did you first become aware of Miss Farmer's allegations >> in the press? >> Did your security staff or anyone else on your staff ever alert you to any unusual incident or event involving Mr. Epstein at the home that we've been discussing? >> None. Are you aware of any other incidents related to sexual assault or misconduct where somebody on your property or Mr. Epstein's former property adjacent call the sheriff's office for help? >> Absolutely not. >> Not where >> I'd like to touch on uh Victoria's Secret and Mr. Epstein presenting himself as a recruiter. Again, I know it's been discussed earlier. I'll try to cover new ground to the extent possible. I think you had testified that you were alerted to that issue once. Uh it's been publicly reported that in 1993, uh President Cynthia Fetus Fields, who was an executive at Victoria's Secret at the time, was alerted that Epstein was holding himself out as a Victoria's Secret scout and that you were alerted to the problem and quote said that you would stop it. Does that sound like the time frame in which you recall being told about the issue? >> Maybe it doesn't. It could have been. I was trying to think when she worked in the business and when she left, but yeah, probably right. I I don't know for sure. >> What do you specifically recall about when you were alerted to the issue? In other words, who approached you and what did they describe specifically? something like uh Jeff's trying to pick up women and he says he's a Victoria Secret talent scout. I said that's yeah terrible nonsense or I'll put a stop to it something like that because I couldn't it could be possible I think in my memory but I didn't I didn't believe it but I know I called him up and said are you you know Jeffrey what is going on he said are you think I'm stupid I said because I hope not because if not you'll be dead there was a brief very brief conversation I remember him being definite about it didn't happen that and I'm it wasn't a long conversation I was mad. >> So it was a blanket denial from Mr. Epstein. >> That's very accurate. >> And did you believe or were you convinced by his denial at the time? >> At the time, yes, I did believe it. So, is it right that you you were not no longer upset following that conversation because you believed that he had not in fact held himself out as a scout? >> That's accurate. Yes, that's how I felt. Do you recall whether you had the impression that your executives simply made the story up or I don't recall just knowing how I think about things. I I probably would have said this is just Jeffrey Single, you know, it's a thing to say. A rumor could get started. I got to chase it down because if you god forbid that anybody was do in the business, let alone outside the business was dating people in the business or dating models or recruiting them or any of the stuff that we now know is true. I would have fired him on the spot. >> In May 1997, a young woman named Alicia Arden says that she was introduced to a man who identified himself as a talent scout for Victoria's Secret. That was Jeffrey Epstein. Mr. Mr. Epste allegedly invited Miss Ardan to his hotel room in Santa Monica, California to audition for the catalog. When she arrived, Mr. Epstein grabbed her, tried to undress her, and said he wanted to quote manhandle her. Miss Arden fled in tears, and filed a police report. It's one of the earliest allegations that are known against Mr. Epstein. >> Yeah. >> Were you alerted to this sexual assault at the time? >> Same objection to hear, but go ahead. >> Kind of the same answer. I don't know how I knew about it. And you know, called Jeffrey like, "What the hell's going on, Jeffrey?" And I was like, "Do you think I'm stupid?" Like, "This was a bad girl. You know, I was on a date. She made all this stuff up. You don't think I behave this way, would you?" Like, I hope not was probably what I said because I couldn't believe that anybody that I knew would behave like that. and what you're describing, is that the original single conversation you described earlier or is that a separate conversation with Mr. Epstein about the issue? >> I'm a little confused. The this question about the lady in the hotel in New York was one conversation and the notion or the discussion about Jeffrey's interviewing models, I think, was a separate one and they didn't happen simultaneously. I understand. It sounds like that might have been about four years apart from each other. >> You could tell me four years or four months. I don't remember. >> So, it sounds like at that point there would have been at least two conversations with Mr. Epstein about the broader Victoria Secret issue. Uh, in 2004, a woman named Elizabeth Thai had a similar experience. She was invited to Mr. Epstein's New York home under the impression that he would be able to get her a job as a Victoria's Secret model. Mr. Epstein apparently allegedly undressed and handed her a vibrator. Miss Tai threw the vibrator at his head and ran out of the room. Were you made aware of this allegation at the time? >> I I never heard the story before. In 2005, the New York Post ran an article describing a Romanian model who allegedly uh land a gig at Wexner's Victoria's Secret brand thanks to Mr. Epstein. Did you have any knowledge about models who actually acquired jobs at Victoria's Secret directly or indirectly through Mr. Epstein? having no but I didn't meet interview or pick models that wasn't what I did and no one in the business did and but just to phrase it clearly to your knowledge did Victoria Secret ever hire or contract with a model at the recommendation of Jeffrey Epstein? No, I I can't imagine they did. I I wouldn't know if they did, but the the way that we handled our marketing, it couldn't have happened that I think I would have I would have known because it was just wasn't the practice. >> Could I ask one follow-up question with respect to that second conversation and the young woman named Alicia Arden? I know they were a few years apart, but if you recall, was there any part of you that that doubted whether Mr. Epstein had been truthful in his denial with you the first time? At the time, I don't think I connected them. You can't imagine how busy I was. I was engaged. I was married. I'm running 20 businesses. I never made the connection. >> And as far as you recall, those are the only two times that you were alerted to Mr. Epstein holding himself out as affiliated with Victoria Secret. >> Those stories. Yeah. >> It's been reported that following Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2019, uh the limited company Elbrands retained uh two different law firms were retained to investigate Epstein's affiliation with the company. We're not aware of those reports uh ever having been made public. To your knowledge, were those investigations completed? >> When was it? >> This would be after the arrest. So, in 2019 and 2020, >> I'm not aware that that the board investigated Jeffrey >> and I think the first law firm investigation was for the board, broadly speaking, and then some individual board members uh engaged a law firm to perform a second investigation. But it sounds like you have no knowledge of either investigation. >> I found out about two weeks ago from one of our ex board members that he had hired Croll to investigate Jeffrey and I never knew it. >> Could Could you elaborate on that just a moment? In other words, a board member describe what exactly? This is two weeks ago that he was worried about Jeffrey and he asked Jules Croll to investigate him. Is Jules Croll an investigator white collar criminal? He was a Justice Department FBI kind of a guy started his own I think it's the largest international and private investigation firm in the world. And um so he said and I said, "So what happened?" And he said he didn't think Jeffrey was a good guy. And he said, "What else?" He said, "That's all he would say." He said, "Just not a good guy." And he said he asked him for specifics. And Jules said, "I don't have any specifics. He's just not a good guy." Whatever that meant. Do you recall approximately what time frame the cruel review was undertaken or how was it described to you? >> Well, the way it was described to me is the board member asked Jules Crawl. He didn't tell me it was a board thing. And so it must have been I don't know about 19 or 20 because I know when I retired I know when I and I think I know when COVID was and all those things that that happened but at the but I had no knowledge of it and I was frankly I wasn't it made no difference to me but I was kind of surprised that somebody on the board would investigate somebody and not tell me or you know as the founder, principal, whatever. This they didn't which is probably a good thing. >> So for the the two law firm investigations I described and this separate cruel inquiry, it sounds like you had no awareness of those when they occurred. >> Nothing. I would like to introduce minority exhibit J. One more. >> Yeah. So, as you can see, this is an email from June of 2008, right around the time that Epstein plead guilty to soliciting a minor for prostitution. And you said to him, quote, "Abigail told me the result. All I can say is I feel sorry. You violated your own number one rule. Always be careful. And Epstein replied, "No excuse." So clearly either you knew or Epstein had said to you that his number one rule was to be careful. What in your recollection was he so careful about being a about being honest and stealing from me? us uh these criminal terrible horrible things that he did. And I don't know what prompted me when I saw this. I think it was just giving him the finger. I just something something in the news. something. Maybe it was the fact that Abigail told me and I was just cook I was cooking on it and I just wanted like you sold yourself as a careful honest fiduciary and you completely robbed us did all these terrible things. >> It sounds like you at least at the time understood that Mr. Epstein it sounds like Mr. Epstein would say that his number one rule was to be careful. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> Okay. What do you recall that being in the context of when Mr. Epstein would say that? Why was that his number one rule? I'll phrase it that way. Well, again, he alleged himself to be a fiduciary and I'm always careful about my clients. You know, I don't do risky investments. I don't do I'm not looking for I wasn't looking for cleverness. I was looking for accuracy, conservative. I just run things really smoothly. And Jeffrey say don't worry, you know, I'm always very careful. And that might have meant to be not abusive to my admin or or get be prompt and accurate with tax returns. He's just careful because that's what you would expect if uh my personal attorney would have said, "Don't worry, I'm always careful on your account." That would that would ring, you know, comfortably for me. and complete croo and and you touched on it, but in terms of how what you can recall about how you felt at the time, the the the crimes, even the crime that he pled to was not insignificant. It involved a minor that do you recall? I mean, that would seem not to necessarily be the product of simply not being careful. So, do you recall whether you felt anger, shock, or or simply how could you have been so careless? I don't remember how I felt. Probably anger that a person in a trust position could be so mistrusted, so crooked, so bad. As far as you can recall, when was the last time you spoke with Mr. Epstein? >> Well, it was probably sometime before I gave him a finger. So, it probably was in ' 07 or '08, sometimes when he got in trouble. In my mind, he died. >> Well, definitely at this point, you two were in communication. So, that's the middle of 2008. >> You have someone spoke to. >> Sure. I'll clarify. uh any form of electronic or verbal communication. >> I wouldn't remember that I did this. I what I remember is when I found out how bad his sexual behavior was and he was stealing from us dead. >> If you recall, I think you had said that he initially framed the investigation to you as involving a massage and an overzealous police chief. At least that was what your con councils represented to DOJ. Is that Do you recall that? >> I don't I don't recall it. I think that's I think I don't know that he told Abigail that and she told me. >> No, not what she told. >> Okay. I don't know. I don't how I know. I don't know. Do you recall when you first became aware of his crimes involving minors? >> I don't recall. >> There is evidence that Mr. Epstein tried to get in touch with you in 2010 and 2011. We don't know whether that continued later. Do you have any recollection of having any form of contact with him after 2008? Nothing. I'm positive that I had no con no con no communication of any kind. I keep repeating from my point of view. He died. I didn't want to even think about it. Yeah. Starting to to wrap up. Are there other individuals from Mr. Epste's orbit at the time that you think we should talk to who might have an understanding of Mr. Epstein's crimes. What I'm thinking is that he he would re he referenced several people that I never met. Do I think they might have information? Possibly, but I don't know where he made it up where he really did it. >> Do you recall some examples of people he would reference? >> Yeah. He like he'd say, "Uh, I was in Aspen last week." I say, "Oh, what were you doing in Aspen?" And he said, um, the family that owns Fidelity in Massachusetts, Johnson, he said, I I I work for Abigail Johnson. I was there, you know, talking to her about their family situation, but he could, you know, he could have been making it up, but at the time, as he was, he works with the Johnson family. They're pretty sophisticated. Uh he would talk about the founders of Google that they were friends and he'd visit them. He would talk about um you got to come out to San Francisco. You should meet um the Amazon guy >> Bezos. >> Bezos. I said, "No, I'm not too busy and I'm interested and I don't do what he does." And you know, he said, "But he's really a smart guy. You should meet him." I said, "If I'm ever in San Francisco, I'll look him up. I'm too busy. Um, trying to think if there's any others. The Google guys. Um, but I never met them. I never met Abigail Johnson, but I know the name. That's all I can recall. But there were so many names dropped that and I'm not I don't know. I I don't know as much interest in celebrities, political celebrities or or whatevers. He would just like I know so and so or I know so and so you know uh do you know I I don't want to mislead you and and get a woman I don't know in trouble like Abigail Johnson but up until the fact that I believe that he was a crook. I believe that he knew all these people. >> Do you recall whether he ever described anybody as his closest personal friends? Do do you have an understanding of who his close friends would be? No, he he would he would talk about friends that he had. Um he would say he would he would told me how friendly he was with AA's husband. And I always thought that's kind of funny that you're friends with your ex fiance, girlfriend's husband, but but you know, you know, it was it was stuff like that. You know, did I believe that that he knew Clinton? No, I didn't believe it. But sometimes people say that, you know, they knew high five people in high places. >> >> Do you have any reflections as we close this conversation, whether it's on your relationship with Mr. Epstein or the pain and suffering that he and his accompllices inflicted on countless victims and survivors largely with your resources? Any reflections of any kind on the entire topic? >> Objection assumes effect not in evidence. Well, I believe he had a lot of resources beside mine. I think the only thing I said earlier was I think if you really if you understand I think you know I think he had in hindsight multiple personalities um incredibly smart which I didn't really see. I mean, well, you can Nobel laureates about physics and university professors and physicians and all the people that I've read about. I mean, if it was a movie, no would believe it. I mean, but what I read about him and the connections is so and I think that the perspective to understand it would be to understand how intelligent he was in his as a criminal and all the things that he did. And I mean, I I have trouble imagining how we could just do all the that he did. Forget about work in a 48 hour day because it was always so busy with my stuff. And then you find out all these relationships. It's just mindboggling. and and and some of it even today I I I I I can't believe that it's so and but I some of the stuff I believe because I read about it. I mean stuff I read yesterday I go I can't pardon me I can't believe this and and I think to understand it the criminal activities all this stuff it it's like I hope you guys are really good and I as I said earlier I I hope you know probably the dismay of um of my advisors to to give you an accurate picture of how I am and how he was how I perceived him. And I mean diabolical isn't a big enough word. And I think I said early Bernie Maidoff was a boy scout compared to Jeffrey. I mean you you if I just believe what I read in the press about people that he contacted that he university presidents Gergen my friend I mean it's just crazy. But but he was beyond perfect or good at at doing all the that he did. It's just I I think it's um the rumor and innuendo that goes around me is makes me very mad because I think I'm a very straight arrow and a very responsible person. if uh you know I don't I don't want to give you a speech on my virtue but I'm comfortable in my own my own skin and I look at I say it's so preposterous to me what he got away with so long with so many people that I can't imagine how a mind could do that and be robbing banks it's it's crazy >> thank you and then one last question u I think your council's represented to DOJ that your assets accounted for virtually all of Mr. Epstein's wealth. Sounds like you don't agree with that. I don't I wouldn't know it, but I don't I really don't know what his wealth is. But, you know, island, house, all that, lifestyle, buying people's gifts, you know, and it would seem to me that having a good sense of how much money now he probably stole from us or more than that that we don't even know about yet because it was disguised. Uh I I I think it's a vast I know if if you said it to do all the things he did and I know now I know he was if you would a bank robber bank robbers don't rob one bank that that was just there there's more there and I can understand why people like myself who who were robbed don't want to be mentioned because they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to, you know, appear naive or dumb. I mean, when I look in the mirror, I know I see an honest person, but in this, I was completely blind. Okay, >> thank you. We can go off record.