Right, we're going to be talking. >> We're going to have fun this week. >> We're talking about the Steven Bartlett discourse. There's been an explosion in the world of podcasting after a passing remark upon Steven Bartlett's podcast. Lots of people have piled in and we're about to join them. >> Yes. Well, I'm going to do a deeper dive on who Steven Bartlett is and what that means. >> I always just be only facitiously about this subject. So, that's I'm glad someone's going to take >> I'm going to be talking seriously. Okay. >> But that's how we always do it. I I you know me I take things very seriously. >> We are also doing a field guide to celebrity weddings following the Italian union of Dual Lia and Callum Turner this weekend in Sicily. So we'll be talking about what you know I will be giving you a proper field guide to how you do a celebrity destination wedding. >> Uh and we're also talking about 60 Minutes which is America's flagship current affairs show and it's currently in absolute crisis. Is it for political reasons? I mean, we shall find out. >> The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, fan mail is one of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way and the understanding that nothing may come back. >> Certainly in our day, you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. Uh, and you maybe 3 months later, a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly proformer. you know that that you you know Howard's never really looked at. >> Steve Martin used to have a performer sort of thing which would just leave blanks like insert like small detail to to make a joke about how completely impersonal his personal reply to you was and it was just like a standard thing. >> Impersonal is interesting. That's why we're talking about this because with Octopus Energy you always can reply to their emails. And not only can you reply to them, they will go to the same small group of people who always deal with you. That's like unbelievable. It's almost unprecedented that a company you're giving your your money to will actually respond to you >> are contable in some way. >> Right. >> Shall we start with Steven Bartlett? >> Yeah. Business idea. A device that stops you acting like a I would love to pitch that device to Steven Bartlett on Dragon's Den. Richard, I would love to. I would say that people over the last week, you may or may not have felt like a great disturbance in the podcast universe as if millions of voices screamed out in pain, but then weren't silent. I'm getting ahead of myself. What has actually happened is that Steven Bartlett on his podcast said, >> "Diary of a CEO." >> Diary of a CEO. I'm going to do the full quote. I had a couple of glasses of wine, didn't get drunk. It ruined three days of my life because of the domino effect that it caused. It meant that I got worse sleep that night. I ate more poorly the next day because my dopamine system or the cortisol system >> That's what they mean by the domino effect. Of course, you immediately you immediately order a dominoes. >> Exactly. I ate more poorly the next day because my dopamine system or the cortisol system or whatever was all messed up. Then I podcasted worse. I don't think you use that as a verb. Do you? And I didn't go to the gym the day after and I could track all of this on my whoop hashtag ad hashsponsor investor whatever. >> And say the word again. Whoop. >> Whoop. I mean, you spelled it wh is it? >> It's it's I mean, it's one of these health tracker things. I'm not going to look into it any further than that. Literally, I literally couldn't be bothered to look up what it was. It's one of those self- optimization devices. I slightly felt like you've had two glasses of wine. Buck up, Stephen. It's not going down in mine, is it? These these are the good problems to have. But it has this thing has sparked a flood of interventions across the podcasting sphere. Push back really, but content mainly. Yeah, >> we've heard from Greg James, Paloma, Faith, Vogue Williams, Fern Cotton, Joan McN, and now as we'll ideally not have escaped our own podcast listeners, we've heard from us on it. >> Well, we've heard from you. I have come on then. >> I've yet to say a thing. Well, no, you you >> talk to me about Is this is this just a way for him to mention his tracker? >> Well, what I think is this we're only talking about at all because I thought I think it's I think people find him interesting as a figure. I think people not quite sure where he came from. People are aware that he exists. If you want to look up Steven Bartlett, pretty much every single article you read about Steven Bartlett is headlined, "Is this the end for Steven Bartlett? Is this the downfall of a CEO?" You know, the rise and fall of Steven Bartlett. Every single article is essentially wishing him ill. Is essentially saying, "This guy, we don't know where he came from. He certainly didn't come through uh our conventional media roots." And yet he seems to have for a very long time pretended to be unbelievably rich and via the medium of doing that has become unbelievably rich which seems to be unforgivable for almost anyone. I'll talk a little bit more about him because diary of a CEO did start sort of talking to businessy people. Yeah. >> Then started to be slightly more philosophical I think for for his own uh health and wellbeing is the way I read it and now has gone into the world of wellness. It is massive. We should say it's one of the biggest podcasts in the country. >> No, it's one of the biggest podcasts in the world in the world. I mean, it's probably if if we have not not in terms of the politics, but if we have a Joe Rogan in the UK, it is Steven Bartlett Diary of a CEO. He started before lots of other people started. He built it and built it and built it. He's an incredible marketeteer. I'm an insanely good marketeer. Gets incredible guests. But as I say, he's he's he's now into that wellness industry and he's, you know, there've been all sort, you know, various kind of um complaints upheld against him. You know, he would, you know, he would advertise Hule and he would advertise Zoey, you know, which is that um medical app and not mention that he was financially involved in um both of those companies that he was. But I I I think that if you look at where he came from, I think it drives people insane. And by the way, all of this is caveated with the fact that, you know, me, I always give people the benefit of the doubt unless I know for a fact that I mean, I just can't help myself. That's how I've always been and it's usually served me well. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've met him. I've been on this podcast, which I we we'll talk about that later. >> I'd like to hear that. I don't know why I haven't heard that episode, but I need >> It's weird because you you listen to it a lot. >> I I listen to you a lot and I like listening to things that you're on, but I have I feel like I should be a completist with your work. No, I don't listen to Dary Vio. >> Yeah. So, um, Steven Bartlett, born in Gabon, grew up in Plymouth, I think, but low-inccome household, goes up to Manchester Metropolitan University, leaves after a term. In 2014, sets up a company called The Social Chain with a guy called Dom McGregor, who Dom McGregor was sort of the the kind of stayed sensible one and Steven Bartlett was the salesperson. And social chain was one of those companies if you think back to 2014 all the big companies in the world understood how they did their business but didn't really understand digital and what Steven Bar and Don McGregor did said look here's a way that you can connect to a completely new audience uh and you know it wasn't rocket science it's just they were natives and sort of understood the audience in a way that different people uh didn't you know and they worked for Microsoft and Huawei and Universal you know they had big contracts good contracts um built up this social change. Steven Bartlett right from the beginning was the front man of the thing. You know, I think he understood very very early on that whatever company he's building the most valuable thing he can do is build his own brand. That's the thing that he really really understood. Um the company gets sold eventually gets sold for or at some point it's worth 600 million gets sold I think for 300 million but actually the bit of it that they set up sells for 7 million. So in amongst all of this stuff, they are they're building a big successful company doing interesting work. The numbers and there's plenty of articles that will tell you this. Uh there's some doubt over just how rich were you, just how successful were you and that drives people insane. But I mean that's been entrepreneurs for 100% that you have to pretend to be successful for a long time before you actually are successful. And that's clearly correct one of the things he did. He then built up his own brand really. uh he wrote a book called Happy Sexy Millionaire. Uh but again and sold really really really well. It was really beautifully practiced. It's a great title essentially, you know, if if these are the things you would want to be a happy sexy millionaire and got into podcasting very early with diary of a CEO and diary of a CEO as you can by the very title it's essentially saying well I'm a CEO I'm going to talk to some other CEOs sort of man to usually manto man occasionally manto woman um and it started as as as a business advice thing but all you know he he he's very smart and it was always what's the take-home here what can I teach you what can you can listen to this for an hour and be smarter and be be more ambitious or have, you know, genuine take-home stuff. He then started interviewing a few more celebrities and it started being a little bit more more about mental health when I went on it. Again, we we it's I I will say this firstly, it was a really interesting chat. I absolutely felt like he was in therapy. I felt like a lot of the podcast was him asking questions and trying to work out who he was. And that's absolutely fine by me. I think that's fairly compelling in its own way and after that podcast whenever you do anything any TV or podcast you will get people come up and talk to you about it and that a very very different group of people came up and talked to me in a very very different way and a very interesting way. So I've always always been grateful I did that show and grateful I said some of the things I said and reached out to an audience who who uh might not have heard that otherwise. So that's always been my thing with Steven Bart. I sort of think fair enough and you know you can't deny that he now is enormously successful. Then he went on Dragon's Den which I do have an opinion on which we will uh get to. He is unbelievably good on Dragon's Den as well. He's exactly what they need on that. They didn't have like a a digital native on that and he brings a completely different energy to it. >> So he is somebody who I think has done extremely well. He's clearly has elements of being a chancer but also he has elements of not being a chancer. you know, he has followed through and he has made an awful lot of money in a in a very very interesting way. Now he is in this wellness world. I think there are issues. There are issues for our broader culture. I think there are certainly issues for the BBC. >> Yeah. He's very sort of better never sleeps, isn't he? >> Yes. and these where I mean I the whole thing of wearables and tracking everything which has been what we'll get on to everyone diving in in a minute and the whole all the other podcasters because I think that actually tells us something completely different to what we've been talking about which >> and it's also funny yeah >> I just wanted to do that just just to sort of say this this this is who this guy is this is why he is a target you know has set himself up to to be there but this this is where it gets >> he's absolutely made for like Fitbits and Aura rings and whoop trackers which I must guess please don't say wearable I The thing about these things is I think if they must exist or they must do them, they cannot and must not pass for conversation. I don't want to hear about anybody's It's like hearing about someone's dreams. I would literally rather hear about your dreams or how much your fouryear-old child is gifted and talented and a genius. Yes. >> Than I would what your sleep score is. Anything like it should be something slightly shameful that you do in private. >> Yeah. I don't want to hear about your dreams, your kids or your wearables. >> Yeah. It's a private activity, right? like overpaying for Neato the childhood crowds or watching lots of like kissing montages from heated rivalry on YouTube. You shouldn't talk about it. You shouldn't talk about it if you do it. Okay. So, >> and I don't I don't there's no one in the room who would do either of those things. >> Exactly. It's disgusting. Yeah. >> Um don't talk about it in public. So, his tracker, but I did think it destabilized him so much that it reminded me a little bit of the like a modern version of the twist. Like if you didn't like him and you worked for him, you worked out how to you could hack Steven Bartlett's wearable. You could send him into an absolute tail spin, couldn't you? Because you could just like slightly alter the, you know, the vitals and he could he he would go into an absolute tail spin. >> That's how someone would get murdered in an episode of Black Mirror. >> Yeah. >> By literally being driven insane by their Fitbit. >> Everyone though in other podcastings, the rest of the podcasting sphere has had something to say in a way. I'm going to say it. No one else will. Yeah, this is exactly how World War I started, right? This is the podcast equivalent of everyone's now getting involved in a very, very short space of time. This is a podcast equivalent of like late June, early July 1914. >> Seemingly isolated event. >> Yes. >> The assassination of Steven Bartlett's routine by three glasses of wine. Serbian wine, I don't know. >> It's it's a lovely it's a lovely Hungarian Gustavip should have been containable. >> Yes. But people have got drawn in in a chain reaction. These other podcast empires, complex alliances, webs of endorsements and suddenly the arms race of it all. Everyone's involved in this discourse. >> Now here comes Gohanger. >> Right. So yeah, and I include myself in that. Okay. Can we take 100% seriously the job description of podcaster? >> Yeah, I think so. >> It's a number, but it's not 100, Richard. It's not 100. It's higher than 50 maybe. >> I mean it's >> it's not it's not >> I would say it is I would say it's lower than author but higher than game show host. >> Can to what degree can you do you have to take it 100% seriously is your job. I mean Steven Bartlett's using it as a verb. I podcasted worse and I can't really >> It should be I podcasted worser. >> Yeah. Well I just don't What about you don't use it as a verb? What about it just doesn't get used as a verb. >> Well then what do you say when you're podcasting? >> Just working. >> Okay. Or you call it working. That's interesting. You got it working. >> Wow. You've changed. >> Okay. But I tell you what I think is actually happening here. It's so because all of these people who have like kind of weighed in also are doing these and I include ourselves in this like an always on podcast. >> Yes. >> And you just need the content. Yeah. So, I don't want to say they're like a Bloomsbury group all, you know, fe feeding into each other's work, but actually it reminds me slightly of do you remember when we talked about BTS and we talked about that thing, the Bangtan universe, which is like a sort of dark mirror world where because BTS were literally working the entire time. This is the obviously the K-pop group. They were working the entire time. So, they actually didn't have a time to have any form of life. So they had to create this kind of fake life which they could then sort of sing and talk about where they have go through problems and have relationships and things because there was literally no time to do anything other than be in BTS. And I slightly wonder whether just this is just like oh great Steven Martin says something mildly stupid. We can have three a week's worth of content. All of us can about this. >> But I do think as well you know as as I as I as I hinted at every article about Steven Bart is is this the beginning of the end? uh and people cannot quite see how he did what he did, but he has been wading into difficult territory recently. You know, he's he's sort of he's started talking to, you know, experts on in sales. He's had some sort of rather interesting, slightly funky opinions on his podcast. And I should say the flight studio who is production company. They said the diary of a CEO is an open-minded long- form conversation with individuals identified for their distinguished and eminent career that's like me and or consequential life experience. um they heard a range of voices, not just those Steven and the Diary of a CEO team necessarily agree with. Um but you know, everyone's laid into him. You know, they called him a griffer, they call, you know, they call his world an empire of bluff. So I think that uh you know, he finds himself, you know, the the more money he's had, the wider that podcast goes. He does find himself in an interesting new world. That's for sure. And you know, he's had issues on Dragon's Den as well with with some sort of ear seeds that were supposed to cure diseases, which they didn't do. >> Sorry. Ear seeds. >> Yes. Like little seeds that you put in your ear that that I forget what it was they cured. It turns out they didn't. >> No. >> Uh what? So it doesn't matter what it was that they cured because they didn't. >> Um you know, I could say anything cuz they didn't cure anything at all. So he found himself in a in a bit of trouble with that. And people always say, "Oh, they they never invested on Dragon's Den." He's invested over £3 million on that show in like 54 different things. They really do invest in. Yeah. And he really does invest and he really really gets involved. You know, he is he is really good at business. >> You know, perhaps he wasn't as good at business as he hinted at the very beginning of his career, but he has caught up and now he is, which is half the game in the world of podcasting. It is sort of wild west. There is no offcom. You can do what you want. There's things like, you know, when he's advertising hule and so he where he was, you know, caught out and there was there was an an apology. It wasn't done again. But in terms of the content you do, in terms of what you talk about, you are free to do it. Now, Dragon's Den, if we've learned anything from working, you know, from people who work at the BBC for the last 10 years, if there's a minor minor issue, any sort of tiny issue that might come up, then the BBC get in enormous trouble. I would have thought this is, and I love him on Dragon St by the way, and I love Dragon St. I love that show. I really, really do. It that feels like an accident waiting to happen. I mean, it really feels like an accident. I mean, don't you think >> Matt Britain's first trip to the podium? >> Wow. It's got it's got to come soon. >> It's probably been >> about two weeks. Yeah. >> Um, you know, that that feels like a difficult thing to ride both of those horses to be on the BBC where everything has to be squeaky clean and any newspaper will pick up on anything that happens. and to run an enormous podcast that interviews controversial people on the edge of intellectual thought as we know it at the moment and on the edge of health thinking as we know it at the moment. Both of those things you are allowed to do. You're allowed to do Dragon St and you are allowed to do a podcast that pushes the boundaries of what we think about things. It feels like at some point that might become an issue. I find it I find that jewel um carriageway that he's on quite an interesting one. Yeah. But he listen he's an incredible self-publicist and I I don't say that as a criticism because you know that's essentially the career for so many people these days. When I when I went to do his podcast it was on the day of the queen's funeral and um I don't drive so they sent the car to pick me up and um normally if a car comes to pick up it's a Prius. In this, it was Steven Bartley's own people carrier that was entirely tricked out. Instead of a thing between you and the driver, there was a like a massive screen the whole width of the car. >> A screen that you could watch TV on. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh all the seats were were a cream leather and monogrammed in black SB. So, you kind of think I sort of admire it because you just, you know, I mean, >> sheer overfinching. >> Well, cuz I'm just thinking I wouldn't pay for that if it was my if it was my I wouldn't do it. But the but it's it's sort of commitment to the bit. Um but then but the other side of it we put the screen down uh cuz I I wanted to to chat to his driver who was lovely called Smiley and Smiley said um he said I used to work in retail. He said and about 5 years ago he said uh you know all went wrong and I I thought I'm going to be an Uber driver. So Smiley gets a job as an Uber driver. He said my first ever job my first ever job I get this thing saying someone 3 minutes around the corner needs to be taken 15 minutes away. My first ever driver was quite nervous. Passenger gets in is Steven Bartlett. He said at the end of the journey, 15 minutes later, he said, "Would you like to work for me?" And he said, "And I've been his driver ever since." So, you know, and uh funny enough, Smiley and I cuz he he dropped me back off at home as well. Uh and we watched the Queen's funeral procession together cuz it was just at the end of my road. So, the two of us sat in the car and just watched >> No, no, we we we had a little wander down and watched the uh watched the funeral procession. So, I watched the Queen's funeral procession with Steven Bartlett's Driver. Well, that's a claim to ever sort. >> Is there a podcast in that? So, and as I say, when I met him, I I sensed he was looking for something, you know, he's in his 20ies, of course, he's looking for something and I was happy to talk to him. Uh, but, you know, he he now occupies a very interesting place in our culture and this booze thing. I do I can I know we've talking a lot about Steven Butler. I really want to talk about this optimization. >> Yeah. >> Culture. >> Do you optimize? >> No, of course not. But it it reminds me of nothing more than what people used to do is they used to optimize their children. So they go their children would be at French lessons, then they'd be at piano lessons, and then they'd be at hockey practice. So every night they would be like their kids' lives were incredibly regimented cuz they were, you know, people thought you could somehow kind of mold this child into some kind of genius. Your child is not going to be a concert pianist. I will just say that. So teach them the piano by all so they can play it at a party, but they're not going to be a concert pianist. But it seems to have swapped over from molding our children into supreme beings into this idea that we can mold ourselves into a supreme being by literally gaming every single statistic about ourselves. We're moneyballing ourselves, right? >> Yeah. It's but it's it's all just you're just staying on people's platforms. >> Yeah. >> It's it's I think you're never you're you're completely unoptimized. >> Yeah. >> You're you you're truly like giving your data to the man the entire time. literally every form of possible piece of data you're giving it to. >> I get that your gut biome is important. I would argue it's not that important. It >> it should never pass the conversation at any point. Yeah. >> I'm I'm appalled I've even mentioned it on this podcast, but really no. >> But it is it is a fascinating thing and it's very easy to make money out of and it's all but I mean I suppose like all art and literature is all denying we're going to die. I mean that's >> I mean I just don't think the Whoop app is anything like The Great Gatsby. So I don't really want to see it compared to The Great Literature. No. No, it's not. It's It's really the all of these things. It I mean, it's, you know, it's just a it's just a fancy watch. >> Yeah. But the key thing that will kill you is stress. And, you know, paying attention to every single number of every sing for some people, by the way, it works very well cuz that's some people's personality. Some people absolutely love having a number for everything. That's why people love fantasy football. It's like fantasy football, but for your health. >> Because you've had to stop for your health. >> Yes. Because it I found it too stressful. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. But this stuff, it's it's not good for you. You know what works. Get a bit of sleep, drink some water, have friends, laugh and love. >> And please don't compete over it. It's it's just the last refuge of >> absolutely nuts. And it doesn't make you happy, but it does make another group of people very very rich indeed. We know the answer already. We all know it. Every one of us knows it. And we we don't need that to be monetized by other people. Love will be the next one. they will start putting love numbers on like relationship. >> But but actually it's really interesting just the complete wholesale abandonment of creation of intimacy to these platforms is really interesting actually I mean you could do I mean you could do a very long series on that >> but the key here's the key is you are the only generation that this will happen to to you. This is this is a bubble that you're in the middle of. And historians will look back and they'll go, "What on earth were you doing wearing all of these things, tracking every single bit of your sleep, tracking there are lots of people who need, by the way, to wear trackers for medical reasons." We absolutely buy that. Most people do not need to use them. And there will there will come a point in the future where everyone just goes outside and looks at a sheep. >> Don't you think? >> Thank you. Thank Thank you so much for that glimpse into our our collective. But yeah, if you get to the stage where a couple of glasses of wine are ruining the next three days, then um yeah, I you you know you have an issue. Let this be the end of something rather than the start of something. I like to think this is the end of the First World War rather than the beginning of the First World War. But again, that's my personality type. >> Very good. Okay. Well, we'll await the Treaty of Versailles of all of this, which Well, I'm sure I love that podcast. We'll put a bed to it. >> Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Lloyds. Now, I love it when characters are part of a club. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you, Richard? >> The Thursday Murder Club in some ways reminds me of the A team. >> I would now like to map each of those characters onto the A team and feel I probably could. I mean, Elizabeth is Hannibal and it's not even closed. >> That's exactly right. And Ron is howling Mad Murdoch. >> Well, there are definite perks to being in a club. Just ask the members of Club Lloyds because with Club Lloyds, you can bank on Lloyds to give you more wherever you are. If you join Club Lloyds, there's all sorts of benefits you can choose between. There's, for example, six free cinema tickets. >> They've got an annual coffee club and gourmet society membership, which would be mine. >> And also something that the Thursday Motor Club would enjoy very, very much indeed. Uh to top it all off, uh you have fee free spending abroad, which means wherever you are, you won't be charged by Lloyd's uh to use your debit card when you're traveling. Now, joining this club costs £5 per month, but that is refunded in any month that you pay £2,000 into your account. Now, that is a club that's worth being part of. Check out Club Lloyds today. You'll need to be a UK resident and aged 18 or over to apply. >> It's nearly that time, everyone. The rest is football will be on Netflix every day for the world's biggest tournament. Join myself, Alan, and Micah for daily debates, unfiltered takes, and the most special of guests, all from the heart of New York City. Yeah, that's right. We're excited, too. See you soon. Welcome back everybody. Now I would like to offer you Richard a field guide to celebrity destination weddings because we've just had a very big one. Uh both of them are celebrities. Do a Lipo and Callum Tan who've just got married. Huge congratulations. I love I love both of these people >> and they've just got married in Sicy in Palmo. Now first of all, destination weddings. A lot of people have a view on them. >> Yes, I do. >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. And it's, you know, in in civilian life, you know, you can end up having conversations like, "Sorry, they're getting married in Mexico and for some reason the Henry Henry Cand is in Mkos." unacceptable, right? This is totally unacceptable. >> I've got nine weddings this summer. >> Okay? But these are not these are not um these are not our ways, okay? We're talking about celebrities here, right? So, let me explain to you what you have to do. This is the exact playbook, right? you before you go to the destination the week before you get married in either Chelsea old town hall registry office or Mariban Town Hall registry office both of them in London these are the only two options >> they did they did Mariliban right there are only three outfit options for the bride Vivian Westwood but a mini dress >> yes >> a white trouser suit or a pretty much exact replica of Bianca Jaggers when she married Mick >> what does that look like >> it's like uh cream suit but skirt suit, midi skirt with a big white hat. Probably Eve San Lauron, but don't quote me. >> Yes. >> Um >> right, hold on. I'm just hold on. I'm just going to bring up a newspaper and quote you. >> Yeah. No, Marina said yes. She said that Bianca >> said it was uh Eve Sanuron. Yeah. From from Marina Hyde. Yeah, exactly. Bombshell. Yeah, I know. >> I I won't quote you. >> Any anyhow, those are the only three outfit choices. Okay. >> Dualiper chose option three, the Bianca J. Uh on >> I believe that's Eve's on the wrong, >> right? Yeah. I'm I'm told. >> Yeah. Um >> for the man, there's only one choice. >> No one cares about Just don't bother. >> Like a dark suit. >> No one's Yeah. Mick was in a light suit, of course. >> Was he? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But was Callum >> in the OG. >> I don't know. I literally couldn't care less what people the man wears to the registry office. >> Don't draw Don't draw focus. Right. >> No, don't. >> Yeah, exactly. Even if he is going to be James Bond >> and I think civilians Well, we'll get to that. civilians only um for that because you don't want you know you're not going to have Alton hanging around on the Marban road chucking some dried rose petals. >> Oh so so for the rest of the office bit anyway then you have to decide where your destination will be. Italy is currently very popular you know you've got Lake Ko Tuscan Sicily Venice >> there's an awful lot of tax dodgers living there. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then so it's going to be very expensive. Right. So, it's better if you picked your venue off the telly so that people can say and this one people keep saying where Julie and and Callum Turner got married. They keep saying, "Oh, it's in the credits of the White Lotus season 2." Okay, it's not. But misreporting is also a very important feature of Celebrity Destination Weddings. So, we've we needs a balcony. It needs a balcony where you can emerge for the hypoid to emerge and give something to the the paparazzi a wave as if to say you know obviously you can't come in but I I know I have a huge fandom and I'm so she we saw Julie on her balcony and you also need to have a balcony where you can emerge the next morning to so people can say after you've been partying till 6:00 a.m. This is all very important that they can get a long lens of you. Now, the buildup, the local media. >> Yeah. >> Which will be picked up over here. The local media both loves and hates you. It's not a celebrity destination if the local media doesn't both love and hate you. You've had some road clothes, whatever. This is quite a new thing. When George Clooney and Amal got married in Venice and they sort of took over the whole thing, no one really cared. Um, obviously when Lauren Sanchez, friend of the podcast, and Jeff Bezos, >> Hi, Lauren. Hey, Jeff. >> People people cared more. So you get a lot of these kind of boring articles about, you know, oh, you're turning it into a theme park and something to do with the climate and so on like that. I don't know. I don't know. This is all part of it. Something to do with the climate. Something to do with the climate. In the old days, Steven Bartley used to ask for a toaster for your wedding cuz you're setting up house. Now, unless you're judged to have, you know, temporarily ruined a 17th century citystate, be it Palmo, be it Venice, you haven't really had a proper celebrity destination wedding. So, we saw a lot of people saying about Dip and Callum, you know, Palmo is not someone's living room. What I Anyway, but you just need to get a few locals to say things like that. >> Ruining a city is the your uncle being sick in a font of modern weddings. >> Yes. >> Yes. It's absolutely essential. Um, now you need a series of dresses. Nobody has just one. And what's quite I saw that we know we don't know what dress uh Diper wore yet, but we will find out. But we better >> we we will do. But Donatella Versace was there. That's the other thing that the designer comes to the wedding. >> Oh no. >> I know. Well, funny enough actually Kieran was >> in case there's any sewing he's doing. >> You just invite them. It's sort of it's form. Okay. So we I don't know. I'm guessing that it was a Versace dress because otherwise Thomas is a bit of a random guted if she turns up and it's George Asd. >> Yeah, I know. It's it's almost rude. Okay, now somebody famous has to do a song. >> Obviously, it goes without saying that Elton is the pinnacle and um but if not Robbie will do it. Um now Elton did do the song. Yes. Yes. Um and it's I think it's almost always your song. >> Yeah. >> Everyone a lot of people have been able to tell everybody that this is their song. >> That's ironic, isn't it? >> Yeah. Um, and the guest list is kind of a bit shady here because we don't yet know and they're very, very good. It's exclusive if your guests are the sort of people who know they're not allowed to put anything anywhere near social media or anything like that. >> Um, so there's all kind of rumors. Maybe a Robbie that was there, maybe if he would have to step into the breach if can't do it for one reason or another. Yeah. >> Um, anyhow, >> I feel like we should discover at some point that Eva Longoria attended. Don't ask me why. She is the Zelig of all celebrity weddings. She was there when Victoria danced on Brooklyn as was she? >> Yeah, very much there. Uh Serena Williams. Um I know she just presented some humanitarian award to Lauren Sanchez 15 minutes before. >> Did she? Serena Williams. Serena Williams is a for wedding I'd quite like to go to. I bet that would be fun. >> That well that you would have got quite a lot of good people there. Um I think Katy Perry and Justin Trudeau. She's becoming a bit of a zelig. Really? >> Those two I think we could they might be the new Longoria of guests. He's loving his life. Justin Trudeau. Do you know who he reminds me more of day after day? Portillo. Cuz it's like he did the political thing uh and now he's like, "Oh, I can just go like, you know, he's like, I can just hang out with Katy Perry and go around the world in the same way that Portillo goes, oh, I can just do train rides now forever and ever and people like me." >> Yeah. >> But Justin Trudeau's train rides program. >> Okay. >> But the logistics, you've got a lot of private jets. So that's then we have to have a lot of articles about how do they all you know how do you same which we had the for the Bezos wedding how do they it's a small airport is it we don't even know but they you're you're made to think that Palmo is like this absolutely tiny kind of thing it's not by the way it's not >> it's like a major international hub um but the uh and the private jets are arriving by the way I read this really interesting article last week about this guy he built a private jet tracker um of of basically Silicon Valley private jets because he thought that if there is an apocalypse, it's an apocalypse chapter that they'll they'll know first. And by the way, in my view, they'll have caused it. We have quantum computing, but that's how they'll know first. >> Yeah. And and you'll know because it's a bit like the great noise of the private jets. A bit like the in the ancient world when it was thundering, they thought the gods were displeased. We will think, "Oh, right. There's so many private jets suddenly. >> They're all heading to Alaska." >> Yeah. Or New Zealand where they've got their bunkers. >> That's what my brother's new book is about. I know. You told me this before. I'm dying for this. >> It's really good. It's really good. >> It's really interesting. That whole world is very very interesting. >> That whole world is mental. Yeah. But but it's absolutely right. The second five of them go to Alaska or New Zealand at the same time. You're like, "Oh, great. >> Yeah. It's it's over and you're not going to be able to get out." Anyway, the other thing with celebrity destination weddings is could could it help with work projects? Look, I'm just saying for Callum Turner, is him being bathed in Sicilian light in a white dinner jacket at this stage >> in a certain audition process the worst thing? >> Is it going to give him the edge over Jacob? I don't know. I don't know whether it is. But for me, it's going to be between those two. And as I said before that I thought they were leaning in one direction, but we don't know. And you don't know who says yes. >> That's a lucky side effect though, isn't it? Yeah. >> They're not going to Palmo because of Bond. and they're going to palemo for all for all the other many many reasons you're talking about. >> Let's let's think about synergies, Richard, because I can assure you their agents are. >> You got to have synergies. >> Um I can Yeah. So that sort of covers your celebrity wedding. The next one, which obviously we're going to have to go big on on this podcast, is Taylor and Travis. Yeah, >> these reports that are so nuts that I cannot believe they're true, but there have been a number of reports in recent days saying that Taylor Swift um and Travis Kelsey are getting married at Madison Square Garden. That we know they're getting married in New York, but they're getting married at Madison Square Garden in the Mooneyies. I mean, >> also also you work there. It's like me renewing my vows here. >> You she works there and sometimes, not always, but sometimes she works there. I just Anyway, if this is true, >> they'd really have to dress it up. >> Yeah, >> because it's supposed to be It's not going to look like an Oxford cheer church, is it? >> No, it's not going to >> or or a grand palazzo. >> No, it's I mean, you could you could sell tickets to it. I I I don't know. This can't be true. >> Oh, yeah. I wonder if she'll get fans to go. >> Oh, of course there will. Yeah, there maybe there'll be something of that. I don't know. >> What's your general general opinion on a destination wedding, though? >> Do you have to is my general opinion. Yeah. Yes. >> Why don't you have your honeymoon >> and then it's on you. >> Yeah. And then and if you do do one, if you're actually telling me that you're going to also have a destination stag or hen weekend, >> you are now taking the piss in a way. >> Stagger hen, I think, is fine because that's you know, you can you can make an excuse and not go to a stag or hen if you if you if you can't afford it or whatever whatever it is, you can kind of say, you know what, ah, that's so annoying. I can't come out to um Budapest. But for a you can't say no to a wedding and you got family and you got old friends and you you know everyone's got different income levels. I Yeah, it's >> I think it's no. It's just a no. But I I mean I don't >> if you are marrying someone Greek. >> Yes. If you're maring because that's where all of their family are from. So >> or if you're trying to find a halfway point and you're, you know, you're marrying someone Australian and they're, you know, fine. I get it. Definitely excuses for having it. Yeah. In general. >> Yeah. If you're from Haywood Heath and you're getting married in Falaki and then everyone's flying back to Haywood Heath. >> Come on. >> Come on. Especially if you're of the age where everyone's getting married at the same time. >> It's so expensive. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's so unbelievably It's expensive anyway giving it in the UK. >> Do celebrities pay for their guests to go out there. >> It's not clear, is it? I would have thought that if you thought for one second that yeah they took lots and lots of rooms and I think you put all your family members and your friends who and just say we've got a room for you and then you know you know Adele you sort yourself out for obvious reasons. The best person to be in that situation is like Callum Turner's aunt, >> but you who's like a sort of, you know, just a absolutely regular person who going who is beyond delighted that her nephew is getting married, has always wanted to see it >> to the lovely dea. >> And now it's like, oh my god, >> you will not hear people say a bad word about >> Oh, that's good. People like her. >> Oh, that's really really nice. But yeah, so she's going there and like Elton John's playing. She goes, I mean, I I often hear your song at weddings, but I I I've never seen >> Oh my god, not this one again. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but that must be amazing. >> Well, many congratulations to them. We hope for more. They'll probably release a couple of pictures just so we saw what they actually look like. Yeah. >> But um yes, so that was very uh that that that was a happy one. >> But Taylor and Travis next. >> I mean, watch this space if they do it at Madison Square Garden. I can't believe it's true. >> Yeah, that's nuts. >> Okay, >> shall we turn to uh a more traditional wrestler's entertainment subject? >> Yeah, I mean I suppose it's drama. >> Yes, it really is. Um, yes, we're going to talk about 60 Minutes, which is the the biggest current affairs show in America, which is having an unbelievable couple of weeks. We'll talk about why. Um, >> Meltdown. >> Meltdown is exactly that. There was an incredible meeting between the uh the new guys coming in to run it and some of the people who currently work for it, which has been reported everywhere. I I just thought it's uh it'd be a fun thing to uh to give some context to. It's on CBS. It's on every Sunday night at 9:00, >> but it's investigative reporting. We It's It's like sort of panorama, but it's not. It's >> Yeah. >> It's like if panorama was massive. >> It's basically it's 60 minutes. >> It's actually sort of part of the global cultural conversation. >> Uh and yeah, they tend to have 15-minute investigations. They have these correspondents who've worked there forever and ever and ever. And they take incredible pains over every single thing they report. So, it has it's it's a really blue chip show. Has been for years and years and years. A huge brand in the States. There is not a direct equivalent here, but let's imagine it is something like the news at 10. This would be where your Trevor McDonald's and Jon Snows and you know these the kind of has all the big hitters. >> We're talking about it because it's become the battleground of a fight over editorial independence, corporate ownership, Trump, Ego. >> Exactly. >> Um yeah. So David Edison uh who is the uh child of a billionaire um who has bought CBS amongst many other things including CNN and all sorts of things. Uh he decided to overhaul 60 Minutes. >> Can I say something first before we say this? It actually started before then all of this because there was a Trump lawsuit. Trump brought a lawsuit against CBS for some what he felt was some kind of selective editing of a Camela Harris interview. This was in CBS owned by Paramount was still owned by the Redstone family and they but Sherry Redstone was trying to sell it and a lot of people thought this case would eventually get thrown out because it was perfectly reasonable sort of first amendment defense to it. Um but in the end because they needed regulatory approval to be able to sell the whole of Paramount to Sky Dance to David Ellison's company they settled with Trump for $16 million and a lot of people within 60 minutes were very very angry that this has happened and said this is we the editorial independence been sacrificed for corporate interest for Trump interests. Um Scott Py who was a veteran correspondent was very vocal about that. Um but anyway, the deal went through. They got their regulatory approval and they clearly regarded that as a price to pay. But we've then seen other things happen. Col Steven Cobar, we know that Steven Cobar show is finishing on CBS. So there's definitely a thing about CVS that you know is it is it vulnerable to the editorial independence being interfered with by corporate entities >> and the stuff that's happened this week is crazy. So there's there's one called Bari Vice who um ran a media organization called the Free Press that David Edison bought for $150 million. Uh right leaning I think it's fair to say Trumpleaning I think it's fair to say as well and he >> bought Bari Vice in uh freethinking >> might be the thing we said. Mar's story was that she um was brought into the New York Times between 2017 and 2020 which was a sort of particular kind of the height of to some degree kind of peak woke and she was brought in to sort of she covered culture and politics to kind of be act as a counterweight to what you know seen as leaning too democrat or whatever it was. She was quite reactionary. You said things like, you know, cult the idea of cultural appropriation is stupid, intersectionality is a flawed idea. These were regarded as complete sort of blasphemies at the time. And in the end, she resigned because she said that effectively Twitter had become the New York Times's un, you know, silent editor because people were so scared of cancellation or backlash that they kind of cleaved to quite a narrow point of view. And I have some sympathy with that and There are lots of places that needed some kind of correction. I think I will not say that I've agreed with everything she's done since then and people lots of people totally loathe her but she was installed having never run a newsroom of any meaningful size before and certainly not a TV newsroom as editor as of in chief of CBS News by David Ed. >> Well, that's the thing. Davidson buys her company for a lot of money and then sets her in charge of uh CBS news and 60 Minutes. So the situation you have is, as you say, some someone who is a an iconoclast versus a very traditional, very longstanding, fairly liberal newsroom and this incredible um uh franchise which is 60 Minutes, which has been going forever and ever and ever. Uh and a lot of the correspondents are in their 70s and 80s and have been there forever. and suddenly she's a new broom sweep sweeping through it. Now CBS News which she's in charge of ratings are down and down and down. Uh and now we have a situation with 60 Minutes which is the absolute jewel in the crown and it should be said profitable. >> Yeah. >> You know good ratings, profitable. Um Vice brought in a new kind of chief editor called Nick Bilton who is not from particularly from a news background. Used to write for Vanity Fair as a screenwriter all sorts of things like that. He used to be tech correspondent at New York Times. But yeah, >> so you know he's he's from that world. Uh and they had a meeting last week where he came in for the first time and a lot of the big correspondents have left already. Anson Cooper who was the sort of the probably the the biggest dog of all at 60 Minutes. He has left. Uh and >> so many have been made redundant and lots and lots of lots of the producers staff correspondent everyone has been made redundant. They talk about it as black do they call it black Thursday or black Friday whatever. >> So Nick Nick Bilton comes in has his first meeting with uh with his team to try and say look this is who I am this is where I want 60 Minutes to go and Scott P who we were talking about um >> one of the correspondents senior very senior correspondent >> he had something he had something to say in that meeting did he not? >> Yeah he see he seems and by the way the audio audio of this meeting was of course recorded and given to the New York Times. Yeah, I mean literally within 2 minutes of the meeting ending, >> Scott P made a big speech saying that Barry Weiss had was murdering 60 Minutes. >> Um, strangely it seems he seems to and and various other things beside he has a big sort of goes kind of toe-to-toe with Nick Bilton. He seems not to have realized Scott Potentially get him fired. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> he said he said to Nick Bilton, "You have slender qualifications for the job. you will never be welcome in this newsroom is essentially what he said in this is his first meeting with his boss being recorded by the way and then that recording immediately being released. I'm not saying that saying who recorded it and who released it but it was recorded and released very soon afterwards. >> Anyhow, turns out you can get fired for stuff like that. So he did Scott Py Scott Belly did get fired and he's now on this incredibly emotional round of interviews saying about you know the team the family on um 60 Minutes you know we travel together we dine together we go into literal combat together or you cover literal combat but okay um and then he started crying in some of these interviews he said it's like um your family being murdered someone wipes out a large me number of your family members this talking about the, you know, comingings and goings in the CBS newsroom. It's like your spouse being murdered. >> I would say that again a reminder that American journalism takes itself so preposterously seriously. I, you know, >> British journalism takes itself quite seriously in British news, but American >> can you imagine anyone in the BBC saying this is literally like your spouse being murdered. Okay, let's just take a moment here. Um, so there are there are three major correspondents still on air, by the way, who have said they will go if anything more is done to it. >> Yes. But they have all agreed for now to stay. The thing was they were all going to go at some point. But like one of them, Leslie Style, I mean, she's 84 years old. I mean, this >> is like the Democratic establishment. >> Yeah. But but it really is. But she's agreed to stay. Um, Bill Whitaker has agreed to stay in another one just to sort of see if they can continue the DNA of 60 Minutes into this new era. And uh Nick Bilton has come back fighting quite rightly in in some ways. He said he said in the um termination letter, you know, he said uh um that uh Scott Petty had behaved with remarkable incivility and contempt. And you know, he did is the truth. Whether he had good reason to do it is is another matter. I mean Nick Bilton sent a a memo saying that um you absolutely he's not going to take any um political leads from the ownership of CBS. I mean I mean but he would do that if it's true and he would do that if it wasn't true. So it's sort of doesn't help but you know it's his email uh it ends you think and this is where we came in it ends it's been a hell of a first week let's get to work which is like like a Will Ferrell comedy. >> Yeah. So here's the interesting thing about this story is is this purely Trump and the Trump agenda trying to bring down one of the last great bastions of American news and American news reporting and independent American news reporting. Is it that because every single fact about it makes it look like it is that? The people who have been bought in, the people who have left, um the ownership, all of those things or is it and you know when you hear Nick Bilton talk, he he said, "Look, I genuinely recognize this show gets good ratings and I genuinely recognize it is profitable. It will not be either of those things or do either of those things for long." He said broadcast news is an ice cube is how he's described it. And he said it is it's it's an ice cube does is not going to get any bigger. I'm just literally it's it's out there. It's going to get smaller and smaller and smaller. And the world of news now, as we um know on this show very very well, is a a world of younger personalities, of clippable things, of you know, going viral. It is not one hour on a Sunday night with a huge lead in from the NFL, which is what 60 Minutes has got. It is not an audience that has grown up with this uh franchise and believes in it and we'll will follow it blindly. That's all gone. And so there is an argument that this isn't a political intervention. What it actually is is a life-saving intervention of bringing in a whole new generation of people into this brand, this brand which is trusted and building it out and turning it into something extraordinary. >> I agree with that. I agree. And we can't argue that there has been effectively um editorial interference because the mere settling of that in order to get we can't Yeah, there has been. Um, and but I do also think that attempting to have a correction from that era where I mean I sort of hate calling it Pete Woke but you know what for want of a better phrase where lots of liberal news rooms had in fact these incredible blowups about tiny tiny things and real enormous cancellations of staff members and things like that over really actually relatively minor infringements of some perceived liberal code. Um, and I do think that there has needed to be some kind of correction if you wish to try and keep things mainstream. And you know, I've talked about it before and talked about it a bit um when I did appear before the the select committee that we're in the in the UK, we have this extraordinary thing that America does not have. We have the BBC sitting right at the center of our sort of mainstream. I mean, I realize that people have got all sorts of different problems with the BBC, but like 60% of people check it frequently. In America, you've got a situation where nothing gets more than 20% for anybody. And the polarization is >> almost off the charts. Like if you like Fox News, then you absolutely hate New York Times and vice versa. And they are everybody is sort of flung out to the outer reaches of these graphs and they don't have anything sitting in the middle. and the attempt to kind and I do think that when a shared mainstream disappears and we see this all over the world, you get these big big cultural problems and it and and it the lack of a shared mainstream in America and the perception that some things are for some people and some things are for other people and it's very very siloed like that is not great for social cohesion at all and you can see the effects of it. I think the sort of aim of it, whether or not you think they're doing it right, and whether or not you think that actually is their aim or it's kind of a covert thing for interference, I think the aim of it is good to try and create something that more than 20% of people ever are going to think is trustworthy. Um, and it doesn't sort of matter if you have got bigger ratings than you had before because other things have fallen away. You're still, as you say, the ice cube is not a terrible analogy. >> Yeah. And one very interesting thing about it is that you know Trump is is sort of obsessed with broadcast media and he's he's obsessed with legacy media. Yeah. >> And the truth is that's that's a you know the steam trains. Yeah. Those things and he is obsessed as are most of his generation as are most of our generation with these things that are not going to be here in 30 years time you know with the stuff that we grew up with which we still consider to be incredibly important and which culturally is still incredibly important. you know, it's still because it's a an echo chamber and you know, legacy media always, you know, what legacy media talks about leads what other legacy media talks about. Um, but that's not going to be the battleground. >> No. And actually going around in high-profile, as Scott Py's doing now, going around high-profile broadcast slots and literally crying about things Yeah. is like, oh my god, you are absolutely not helping even the thing you think you're helping. He actually said at one point, "I think the headlines will just be about me crying and people saying I'm a lunatic." Well, he called it. >> Well, listen, he's a good journalist. >> 60 Minutes is back on air in September. They are currently scrabbling around to get the sort of I mean, again, they're saying it's the stuff we do is incredibly difficult. The kind the kind of journalistic kind of skills you're going to have to do to have to do what we do is almost impossible to find. And you kind of think maybe it's not. Maybe there is a next generation of journalists. I mean, who will want to touch 60 Minutes is is a is another question, but they are currently recruiting to replace an awful lot of the producers and the um uh the talent they used to have, but it will be back on air in September. Uh we'll see what the ratings are like and we'll see what the political bent is like, but I think it's a more interesting story than it first appears. And I think if one thinks it's just about political interference, I think we're missing a the bigger picture, which is the biggest current affairs show in America, if it wants to stay that, has to find a way of reinventing itself. I agree. >> Any recommendations this week? >> Uh, yes, I have. I've got a really good novel which is coming out this week. Um, it's called Experts in a Dying Field and it's by Patrick Fra. Now, Patrick Fra is a very funny writer for the Irish Times and this is very good for our entertainment podcast. This is a story about this the members of a band the heathens who were active in Dublin about sort of 20 years before the events of this story and but tragedy struck and they sort of scatter and then they reconnect. Um and it's about B I mean it's about bands, >> it's about the music scene and it's a lot of it is about Dublin and it's really annoying. I know it's really annoying when people say oh it made me laugh and it made me cry. but it made me laugh a lot out loud and it absolutely made me cry and he's got such humanity Patrick F and I absolutely loved it. So, it's called Experts in a Dying Field. >> Amazing. I will recommend Disclosure Day uh the new Spielberg movie just cuz it feels like a great Spielberg movie. Uh we we chatted to him about it. You can uh you can hear that on um Thursday on our Q&A. But yes, it's it's a proper multiplex movie and you know I I love you know um back whims and all stuff like that but it's it's it's nice to have both isn't it? So uh uh yeah go see disclosure day. It's 2 and a half hours but uh it doesn't feel like it. >> And our bonus episode for our members which you can join at the rest is entertainment.com. I'm talking to James Kalagus for a minute about how c how a celebrity could make a run for office even with our within our political system now and generally about celebrity politicians, what they bring um and how we're going to see much much more of them in the future. >> Yeah. #the Martin Lewis question. Um we will see you all on Thursday. >> See you on Thursday. Heat. Heat.