Welcome to Strategy and Tragedy, the top business show for entrepreneurs. If you are thinking of starting a business or you're early in your startup journey, then this is the show for you. If you are tuning back in, then a very big warm welcome. I am so happy to have you here and I'm particularly excited to bring you my next guest. Now, I need to check my notes to make sure I don't get any of these incredible details incorrect. I'm about to interview here the founder of Digital Voices, named the 13th fastest growing agency by AdWeek, officially the fastest growing influencer marketing agency in the world, gang. Uh, starting out with just £500 personal investment, Digital Voices now turns over, wait for it, more than 20 million. I'm making my guest here blush. I can feel her getting uncomfortable next to me. uh 94% ownership retained by founder Jennifer Quigley Jones. Digital Voices is the only UK-based influencer agency of its scale led by a female founder CEO. Ladies and gents, if I had a live audience here, I'd be like, give Jennifer a big warm round of applause. Welcome to Strategy and Tragedy. Thrilled to be here. Very much want to hide under the table now, but yeah, thrilled to be here. Thank you. It's She's so sweet. I love it. It's funny, you kind of forget because you get so stuck in the day-to-day of what you do that you don't take a moment to be like, "Oh, yeah, that happened." Testament to your success. Head down, building your empire, quite literally. All right, the first question we need to hit the ground running with here, Jennifer, is what's the secret to unlocking this incredible growth? >> I think there's a few secrets that you learn along the way. One of the things that really shocks me is that we've had this a similar business model for the last eight years. So when I left YouTube to found the company, I was 26 years old. I'd never worked in marketing. I'd never managed anyone. I'd never worked in agencies. And I thought this model feels really broken because I a lot of agencies just pay for their time. You pay for their time. So it's an hourly rate or it's a percentage of fee. But with if you're a brand, you don't really know what you're going to get get out of that. You the KPIs that they have aren't guaranteed to match your commercial KPIs. So when I left and thought, oh maybe I'll freelance or found an agency, I had no idea what the industry standard was. So I was kind of happy to break it. >> Interesting. >> So we created this model that we now call we win when you win, but it's basically guaranteed results. >> What does that break that down? And we call it we win when you win. >> We win when you win. >> Which is basically guaranteed results >> tailored to what our clients KPIs are. So if you're a brand that's desperate to sell more products, get more app downloads, we can work to guaranteeing like a cost per customer acquisition or a return on ad spend. >> But if you're a brand that's really trying to raise brand awareness, we'll guarantee a number of impressions or views for a campaign. And if we don't hit that, we either give back a portion of our agency fee to the client, which is giving back money. We ensure that influencers get paid and we give back some of our money, >> or we commission more content. It's really interesting because no one puts their money where their mouth is. >> Yes. And it builds this trusted relationship where you're like more of a partnership. >> 100%. That's exactly the first thing that came to mind to jump in, but my early years in career were agency side and it was like the best part of a decade. And you're right, there was that conditioning and drilling in of like how it works. But of course you, if you don't mind me saying, that kind of healthy kind of um naivity coming out to it meant that you could do something completely different that made sense, which is 1,000% what the industry needs. The risk of offering guarantees and refunds is very, very ballsy. I understand. I can definitely see how maybe there's some survivorship buyers coming into this, but I can see how once you have made it, it's easy to be like, okay, you've got that confidence to put your money where your mouth is. But in those early days, what gave you the the balls basically to do that? Like >> I think in the early days it was that influencers were so much cheaper than other forms of media and like influencers, well all media is cheap. Influencers are much cheaper than they are now. So you could see this insane level of success with like YouTube videos that brands would never have envisioned going viral or they'd never have it's something they'd never have made themselves. So if you partnered in a YouTube creators successful format already and you did a 60-second sponsored segment of that >> that viewership is practically guaranteed. So because we came and started with YouTube it gave us the confidence to test that first and then we expanded to other like platforms like Tik Tok, LinkedIn and Instagram. >> Yeah. And whilst you started the business age 26 did you say actually your experience in YouTube that gives you a competitive edge doesn't it? Literally coming from in-house at YouTube. >> Yeah. >> And understanding the channel and the influencers on there. >> Yeah. My job at YouTube was a strategic partner manager but it was to work with the creators. >> So I knew like 500 of the UK's kind of top creators and could message them and could get them to work with us. So it was really interesting. It's like that gave me an advantage in a place where I had none of the other structures that traditionally make agency founders succeed. So, it was really good. And I think that level of I find it so interesting that eight and a half years later, we're still talking about the same model >> and there are so few agent >> and it's still very disruptive. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Especially in America, no one's guaranteeing results. And I'm like, >> the industry needs to get better. And what I really enjoy is building a product where people should be trying to catch up to keep up and to elevate the professionalism of an industry that has been seen as very wild wild west for a long time. >> So you're so right. It has been wild wild west for such a long time. You should be so proud of that Jen. That's incredible. So you based want to stick with like this guarantee again. So you're starting out £500 investment like fully bootstrapped 26 years old. we which is like you know this healthy naivity the blind optimism is a great thing when you're starting out in business but you had this I just want to sort of understand a little bit more about that confidence behind that guarantee and were you being that explicit and black and white about this is what you're going to get we guarantee this has got a digital voices seal of approval you're going to get this many views yeah it developed as we went on I mean like the first nine months of the business were me freelancing and I'd never done that for and that was stressful. I think I was working with startups cuz I thought that like that was what I wanted to do. Nine months in we had um actually I think it was on this street or like a street over we ended up meeting um >> being introduced to someone who had convinced Rolls-Royce jet engines to pay for an influencer campaign to gift to the Air Force. It was the Royal Air Force's 100th birthday. Again, not what I thought I would work on. and they wanted to talk about engineering and get young people and kids excited by space and space travel and engineering and building rockets and jet planes. So they were introduced to this TV producer and he was like, "Yeah, let's do a crazy TV show about going to Mars." And I was brought in to like give an opinion on this. And I was like, "Genzie, don't watch TV." Like Jenz, not this is, again, this is eight years ago. I was like, "No, they're they're watching YouTube." And they were like, "Oh, what would you what would you do?" And I was like, "Well, you have like a 50 grand budget. Like I'd create a YouTube channel and literally add creators to it who are science and technology and like how does the world work creators and give them access to like an F-35 jet. Like that's so cool. And we ran engineering competitions and we talked about careers. We put a creator in a centrifuge to explain how GeForce works. This type of content really resonated and Rolls-Royce was so impressed with the project that RAF actually worked with us afterwards. And that's when we realized like hang on actually if we do campaigns with creators the creator part is by far the most successful. But we realized like the most successful successful content is coming from influencers. It's the most predictable results. It's the most exciting content as well. So we should start just producing creator content for brands. So >> we um do a lot of now we do a lot of like hugely scaled matching creators and brands. though one of our clients works like 100 to 150 creators a month >> and sponsors them in like 30 different markets so we can do that but at that point it was just it was still influencer marketing was so new and the budgets were so small if you got a 10 grand budget for a campaign you were thrilled >> um so we were crafting those campaigns with often like one or two creators >> and now it's just the same thing but at a huge scale and the thing I know this is this is where I get geeky I think in marketing there are so many people who love doing the creative And I think if you are running a lifestyle business where that is what you want to do forever, great. Hold on to the creative. But for me, I love the data. I love the process. I love like hiring the right people and putting them in the right roles. I always want to be uncomfortable and learn something new. So to me, scaling has always been the aim. I don't need to hold on to the creative. I don't need to be the one with the creative ideas. I want to find people who are good at that. Um, >> incredible that. That's the message >> and that confidence to give those guarantees seeing that like no one else is doing this like where did even like that idea come from for you was that also did that come from a place of like we need to stand out in this market or like is this like a savvy BD strategy again I just want to unpack that guarantee that risk yeah be honest gang whether or not you like it if you're in business you're in sales full stop and in today's day and age there There is no excuse not to leverage the best tech to make you smash your sales and commercial strategy. Because here's the thing, I bet whichever CRM you're using is simply telling you what happened after the matter, but gives little to no insight on why deals are stalling or closing. 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If you're ready to turn your sales conversations into competitive advantage, then head straight to the show notes for your unique gong link and see why thousands of revenue teams trust their growth to revenue AI. Because in sales, strategy beats tragedy every time. All right, gang. Let's get back to the episode. I think it just comes from the fact that I'm really bad at lying and I I think innately was probably quite a people pleaser. And also when you're >> incredible, >> I don't know how to describe like it's not a disadvantage, but your people are so much less likely to take you seriously. It's like a 26y old woman >> for sure. >> Like what? >> For sure. >> Um and I understand why. Like it's it's fine, but you were we were new. We didn't have funding. We were competing in a really saturated space. >> I was young. I was like, how can I prove to someone that they should take a risk on this? >> And I also can I think it's my spicy brain. It's spicy in some form in like a mixture of probably autism, anxiety, and ADHD somewhere. I literally find it so hard to lie. So to me, I was like, right, if you can stand out in an industry by literally being a partner who wants to grow someone's business. >> Yeah. >> Love it. Which again is like it should be that way, right? When you're in the service business, you are in servitude of your client. You want what's best for them. And it goes all the way back to your awesome oneliner. we win when you win. And I think it also what I'm observing here from the other side of the table is it links back to your ambitions to scale because it isn't just kind of like we're doing because I think you could do decently as another kind of regular creator marketing business, right? But those ambitions I think have pushed you to like do something different, be a bit more disruptive, do something that is genuinely innovative that no one else is doing. >> Yeah, I think this is like going on to the founder mindset and mentality. I think this is >> where wanting to learn is crucial. So to me, I get very bored if I'm doing the same thing. There's a reason I have moved probably country every two years. Job, specialism. I find it so hard to stay on one thing. The fact I've been doing this for eight and a half years is terrifying to me. But >> it's so interesting and I'm still loving it because every time the business scales, it becomes a different challenge. So once as soon as I master a skill, I get to pass it on to someone else. get to hire for that, pass it on to that. >> Like, here's a system that works. Run with it, edit it, I don't care. Here you go. And so, to me, I think I could see >> that the more data we had, >> the more calculated risks we could take, the more we could scale. So, it's like, okay, would this model work in Sweden? Will this model work in the US? If we build tech that more accurately predicts and benchmarks what guarantees we should be giving >> and use AI for that, that's interesting to me. So, we've built that. I was going to ask you about this as well. So, not only are you founder of this influence marketing agency, but you are a fullyfledged tech CEO as well. Now, what's this product? >> So, that's so interesting cuz like I applied for I can't remember what it was called. It was like a founder community and I was like I really need help. This was must have been like >> four years ago. Someone recommended it so I applied and I was like I really need help. Like I'm profit so revenue funded. So also I mean we can get on to this but when you're revenue funded you have to watch your cash flow and you have to make sure your investments are really careful. >> So being revenue funded and expanding to the US and building tech >> is like taking everything you've built in your life and putting it on red cuz that was like a million dollars. >> So I really needed help. I was like in it was like 2020 or 2021. I was like I need other people in my situation who can help me shortcut learnings more quickly. >> Incredible. So, I did a couple of things. One, I applied for a founder group and they were like, "You don't your business isn't technical." And I was like, "I'm building tech. I need help to build tech." I was like, "I really need help." And they were like, "No, you're not a technical founder." And I was like, "Did you just hear influencer marketing? Also, did you look woman and think, but fine if you did?" So, it's so interesting because you try and get help and you I think that's why you need to try multiple avenues. So the other thing I did was I raised um 120 grand between seven angel investors. So each of them owns max 1% in the company but I basically the way I fundra was quite different >> and sorry just I'm going to jump in here because I know listeners are going to want to know how did you find those angels? >> Yeah random asking for introductions. I presented once at an exgooler meeting they had like um five six startups present but most the others were like random. So, I came up with four personas. Okay, this is um I was like, I know I will need help in these four areas. So, I'm not going to just if you go around just asking anyone for money, the relationship power dynamic is wrong. Like, you are on the back foot asking for help. >> Investors don't really like that. Angels want to feel like there's a mutual exchange. >> So, the four areas I really needed help with were one, I'd never worked at an agency. So, I needed someone who knew how to scale agencies, had run them, knew how to run them, knew how to build agency sales teams. I was like, I need that. That's number one. We actually found two people from that persona. One was, I've never worked in marketing before, so I need to find someone who's worked in marketing at big organizations. And given you're asking for like it's like 20 grand from each person max, like you um it's it's it's a lot of money, but it's not a huge amount. So you could approach people who might not have angel invested before and the SEIS scheme really helps people in the UK. So so I found someone who had been really senior at Spotify and really senior at Virgin. Um she became a CMO. So she was really helpful. >> The other thing was internationalizing the business. I was like I've never done that before. I need to find someone who's internationalized an agency so they can help me with that. And the fourth one was I've never built tech. I want to find someone who's a bit of a tech expert so I can just sense check what I want to build. So I created those personas. Do you know sorry I guess to jump in but what I love about this process is so many early firsttime founders or you know budding entrepreneurs would just be so overwhelmed by the amount of things and as always I mean I do hate to be gendered about it but it is more so women than men are still definitely victims of this too but to feel so overwhelmed like I don't even know where to start and what you've done there is broken it down take that time to break down where what are your blind spots what are your gaps what do you need and then suddenly there's an action plan. It's like right somebody needs and it's like okay now this plan is coming together. >> Yeah. I've got goosebumps because I think that's the thing so many of these tasks like starting a business feels like such this amorphous like how am I ever going to tackle it? Often when I say to people oh if you want to start a business I'm like cool you know it's like £13 on company's house. >> If you actually keep it as this big amorphous oh my god you're never going to do it. But if you go to okay what are literally the next steps to start it? my first logo. I tried to pay someone like $20 on Fiverr to order it to design it and it was so I was like, "Okay, I can't do that." So, I then paid someone 40 quid and I was like, "Well, that one's fine." Um, like it's literally like break these big goals down into small things. So, then it means when you're asking people, hey, do you know anyone who's looking to invest in a company? It's not like investment thing. It's like who do you know that is an expert in agencies? Because if it doesn't work out, the conversation will be useful. >> So, my theory on dupes. So in this process >> one you never want the power to be like them versus you and that dynamic. So you have to be so confident and all the best founders I've spoken to and these are I speak to male founders who are incredible all the time because often they've done this they are like do not let there be a in your armor. >> So firstly that helps. So as confident as you can be. Secondly, my brother, who actually is not anything to do with business, he said to me, Jenny, isn't it really exciting that this is going to be your last first time raising capital, raising investment? >> I had never heard that reframe before. >> It made me I was like, "Oh my god, this is cool." >> Last first. >> Last first time. >> I mean, yeah. And I was like, "This is >> it shifts it." So, you're like, "Oh, how what what's going to happen next time or how am I going to reframe this?" My So, it was really cool. And then finally, this is so silly. It's so stupid. And I don't buy into any of this, but my parents had been to stopped in Dubai. Someone friend of a friend. Yeah. Um, so she has like I'm so bad at lying and I'm also so bad at editing. >> I give away everything. So I'm like, "Oh." Um, so she bought like a fake uh Eon Lauron and a fake Prada bag and they were like bigger ones that could fit laptops. So I said, "Oh, can I can I borrow?" He's like, "Oh, they're cool." She was like, "Well, you can have one." I was like, "No, can I just borrow them?" So, um I was wearing one on the train and I was talking to this random woman next to me on the tube and she was like, "Oh, by the way, um I'm an investor and uh here's my card because you have that handbag. I know your business is doing well." And I didn't she's not one of the ones who I let invest in the end, but she literally offered me investment on the tube in London. No one talks to each other because of the fake handbag. And then another guy >> This is insane. >> It's insane. Was she that explicit about did she literally say >> yeah she said here's my card. Yeah, exactly. And then another guy we were doing like the interview for it and again he didn't invest but at the end of the meeting he goes um I had the fake Prada that time that you saw with the other the fake Prada and he goes by the way my wife's really into handbags so I know what that means. So I know your business must be doing well. to like >> and it's so funny >> funny >> because you don't buy into it but I think people sometimes need the social signifiers and they're trying to shortcut and I think it's an unjust system the system is not fair the system is rigged against you >> of how humans operate the reality and >> and they are trying to especially if they're meeting a startup founder >> they are trying to rightfully spend time working out who is and who isn't because so many people lie again I'm incapable of it but so many people lie So I think >> little things shift the power dynamic. So >> again, I I actually don't I yeah, don't do the design a handbag game, but I think it's really interesting because I do understand there is a social purpose in doing that. >> 100% social the status signaling and it is it is those shortcuts to your point conscious conscious or unconscious is like what am I what what can I mentally sort of attach to to to build trust in this especially if you're talking about however much money that you're going to put on the table there. You want that reassurance. So, back to >> Well, if someone to me asked me for 20 grand and had like a Birkin bag, I'd be like, "You're going to take my money and you're going to spend it on a Birkin bag." Turns out most people don't think that way. >> Yeah. >> Isn't that funny? Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. >> I uh I justify walking around like a slob by being like I'm like rich. >> Do you know what I mean? >> I'm like I'm like I'm like beyond like I don't need >> Yeah. You don't you don't need the logos. >> I don't need the logos. Well, it's interesting as well cuz similarly like I think so many people who are wealthy don't don't wear logos. Yeah. What I mean walk around like a homeless >> because you own your confidence. But I think sometimes and I think at that stage where I was like 28 28 29 trying to raise this money. Had no idea what I was doing. >> I knew I was going to make make mistakes. So yeah, >> but you but you know on that note sticking with that as well though there is there is a topic here to discuss on playing the game on being strategic. Now I know that this is going to come off sounding this you know in the worst way this could be taken as you know being manipulative or not being 100% truthful but we've already mentioned a few times about you being a woman about starting this business in your 20ies like that's objectively young. You know, you're literally only in your second. >> None of my friends were old enough to be budget holders in marketing. It changes when you get to into your like mid to late 30s because your friends who are your age are finally in positions of authority, but no one is able to give you budget. >> Everything around that >> that we have to look at headwinds and tailwinds in strategy and we've got to look at what's working for us and against us. So, I would love to get I mean, obviously I hear your views now on kind of the the designer handbags and the dupes and things, but I want to stick with this topic. I think it's really interesting to look at like would we be idiots for not using certain tools in our armory. I guess you can get into very dangerous territory cuz I mean I saw like Cody Sanchez, she talks about women who wear makeup on average earn like 20% more or whatever. >> Yeah, it's Yeah, it's it's so interesting. Men taller people men in sales uh who are taller and wearing suit. Yeah, I think men make like 15% more if they are dressed well. Women make 30% more. ridiculous. I do think >> it's everyone draws the line for what's morally acceptable behavior just underneath their own >> and I think you need to know your values. >> So to me and also there are infinite battles you can pick yours. So to me our red lines are like one we're super transparent. We don't lie in anything we do. There are influencer agencies who do crazy things buy views and say that you know whatever. That's not what we do. Secondly, we don't take any gambling gambling affiliated brands, tobacco affiliated brands. We've not done any weight loss brands clients. >> So I >> my fear with this is um alcohol I think is so pre again drawing the moral line underneath what I think is okay. Alcohol is so prevalent. Everyone knows what alcohol does. >> Gambling, >> we are very persuasive. Like the influence campaigns we run get people to buy things or go to sites and take action. Yeah. And I you can't agegate influencer content. You can't agegate YouTube content. So if we do a great really like encouraging psychologically impactful campaign, there is nothing to stop a 14-year-old taking mom's credit card, logging into a gambling site, and ruining his family's life. >> So to me, my red lines are the clients we take on. The culture I build internally is really big as well. I have been in situations that have made me feel very uncomfortable as a woman and realize that I am only seen as a sexual object, not a brain. >> And that is really hard to rebuild from. >> And I think as an employer, your duty is to help get the best out of your team. >> So we have a culture which is super feed, open to feedback. It's like feedback is a gift and everyone says it, but really no one wants to have an uncomfortable conversation. And if someone is giving you critical feedback or constructively critical feedback, >> it is because they've thought about it and they think it can be better. Yeah. The easiest thing is to say nothing. So I really want to build >> hopefully a respected workforce who feel like they're heard >> and I want to build a generation of leadership in the marketing industry that is going to do things differently. >> Oh, >> but those are the values to me that I can stick with. other things like is is is uh I don't know is sexual discrimination bad or like are there things people think about women? I'm like it's I all I can do is be an example to hopefully show that women are really smart and really good at business. >> I can't fight other battles like that. I'm trying to stay in my lane and accept the things I can't change. >> And that's the thing. You're doing that through your actions, through the evidence, through what you built, through literally your profile as the UK's only female founder CEO of an agency of this scale. You're you're letting your um your results speak for themselves. It's one of the things I find really frustrating about this industry. I think it's I think it's something ridiculous. Like 78% of people who work in marketing are women, but the founders at the top, it's like less than 2% of agencies founded by women. And I find it really interesting when >> you see agencies that are like, "Oh, we've got a female CEO." I'm like, "If they're on the cap table, great." But if you sell that business, whose life is going to be transformed financially? >> Yeah. >> The founder who might be a man. So, I'm like, you really need to >> again think about Yeah. Think about >> who is making the bulk of this money. >> Yeah. Yeah. And not just performative like empty words. Something else I do just want to kind of underscore on what you said there, which really really resonated, Jen, is the um is the deeper ethical consideration of influence. And I think that this needs to be talked about today at this very point in time because I'm a big, you know, I'm a millennial and I remember it's not it's not too distant a memory for me of uploading blurry pics from a night out on a Facebook album taken by a digital camera that wasn't listening into every conversation. Social media has changed fundamentally. It's changed hugely. I believe now it is a mass manipulation machine. And so on the surface, oh cool influencer fun making cool videos, but actually it doesn't take that much scratching beneath the surface to say this is real influence and this is real power influencing whatever you use kind of a 14-year-old kid's example before, but whoever it is that you're influencing, what we're seeing now is like this is fully the world we live in and it's powerful. It is and it it's really interesting because I really don't like the polarization Yeah. of of influencer content. One of the things I find really exciting about this industry and the reason I'm excited about it. I think there are very there are >> for me when I look back across my career or whatever my interests in life. The red thread is like championing entrepreneurship from underestimated places. So whether that was like working with refugees who I think should be integrated into the the economy they're living in. specialized in Syrian refugees before or >> creating entrepreneurs who did not exist in a different media landscape. I love the fact that every dollar spent with us, >> at least 70 cents of it goes to entrepreneurs who might not micro entrepreneurs who might not exist in another context because they do own >> genuinely empowering. >> Yeah, they they are they are making money from ad revenue. They're making money from brand deals and so we are kind of choosing which voices are allowed to exist and can afford to exist. So I find that really interesting. So I think there's an ethics part that's like democratizing media and it is truly democratizing media. >> There's extremes on that and that's where I worry about social because I don't want to funnel users to the extremes >> for more watch time. So, the people we do work with are brand safe creators. Um, who might be showing, I don't know, a different way of living or showing that you can be a single mom with a couple of kids running essentially a business from your house. >> Yeah. Incredible. >> That I like. But I agree. The extremes is uh problematic and I worry that they're getting worse. >> Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. Um, just for the sake of time, I know we're going kind of deep and heavy on this, but I have got a load more questions I want to squeeze in there, but Jen, kudos to you. I want to give you such a pat on the back. This is incredible. You know, beyond I opened with obviously the stats, the metrics, and all this stuff, but it's like it's for a reason, you know, it's for a reason, and it shows through in the delivery of your work, the the promises that you make and you keep to your clients, the transparency, the putting them first. >> This is the best part of being an entrepreneur. You get to you get to kind of world build. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it sounds really weird, but I think if you're someone who >> pokes holes in systems and wishes they could be better, like sometimes being an entrepreneur gives you the power to do that. Like I don't >> I never want any wanted any of my staff to feel the way I did when, you know, I felt underestimated at work for being >> or whatever. And I and I I'm like, "Oh, hang on. Actually, you can build a system that changes that. Oh, and you can run it." Like, great. Okay. So, it's quite um I think if you think differently and you're willing to be a bit uncomfortable, >> it makes sense to be an entrepreneur. >> Incredible. Oh, I'm so happy for you, Jennifer. I'm so proud of you. Honestly, I can almost like feel my heart physically like swell up. I'm I'm so proud and happy. >> Praise you in your chair. >> There's always much more to do. >> This is why you're building your empire because you are you're only just getting started. We're only just just getting started. Did we close on the tech story a little bit? I just wanted to come back. I have got a few more questions, but what ended up how did you build this tech bit and what is give us the elevator pitch of the tech product? >> Yes. So, um, right, my CFO a couple of years ago sat me down and was like, Jenny, there's like a million dollars in the bank. Like, what do you want to do with it? Do you want to take out and buy a house? Like, what do you want to do? And I was like, no, actually, let's take half it and invest in expanding to the US. So, that we had to put a business case together, get an investor visa, all that stuff. um and then let's take half it and invest in tech. I have a very hopefully sensible approach to tech that's like you shouldn't duplicate what's already out there to build something out of anity. So partner where it makes sense and build where it doesn't exist or where only you can build. >> So we built our own campaign management system called cord which basically clients log into they can see all the influencer data see all the updates on the campaign approve creators approve content see reports. >> Why cord? Can I ask any reason for the name? work in harmony with our clients. >> My team won't let me name anything anymore because you'll notice there's a slightly musical theme. Uh we then built composer. >> Hey, it's all to me here. I'm loving it. I'm here for it. >> Yeah, you should come on board. We'd love it. Um actually, it's perfect. So then composer um didn't exist because only we had access to the eight years worth of proprietary data. >> So we um wanted to make sure we were making really smart decisions with that data. So, it's an internal strategy and planning tool. Helps us calculate deliverables. Shows where content's standing out. Why? >> That's so savvy. That's so cool. So, you took half out to invest in that. >> Yes. >> And then was there anything with the other half or just reinvesting? >> Oh, America. Sorry. >> America. So, I now spend about half my time there. I think if there's a there's a whole podcast on like expanding to America cuz >> that's a whole other ball game industry, >> especially these days, I can imagine. and tougher than before. One of the other questions I'm really keen to ask you is given your insane trajectory in a relatively short amount of time, let alone I mean digital voices has just absolutely exploded but now we've got this scalable two tech products which I didn't even realize was just one but you've got two tech products in the mix there like world building being like world building. >> I have an amazing CTO. We hired him from um >> he was head of per head of data performance marketing agency. So super data exactly the hire we need and we'd have the oneto ones were amazing. I was like, "Is this possible to build?" And he'd be like, >> "Yeah, let's go and do it." >> Yeah. Okay. And I was like, "What? That's so cool. That is to me, everyone's like running the creative a campaign is the best side of the business." I'm like, "No, literally building things from scratch that like will exist the next week." That's really >> That is cool. No, I completely agree. And so with all of that incredible growth in mind, what I'm really curious to understand from your perspective is how you have had to shift as a founder. You did touch on mindset a little bit before, but it's a very different personality, skill set, stomach, gut, all the rest of it. Starting a business, we were chatting before we got started properly about people who are, you know, on the in between, on the fence, getting one thing is getting it started, one thing is scaling it. Another thing is launching tech. Another thing is like this. And I almost feel knowing you outside of this as well. I hope you don't mind me saying I think I've sort of cottoned on to this this incredible amazing success that's that's gone so much faster than maybe you you expected or could have kept up with. So internally Jennifer inside of you, how have you had to evolve as that founder through this incredible growth journey? >> Yeah. Okay. The thing that remains constant is learning. If you're I think if for me if I wasn't motivated by learning I wouldn't be able to do this because I wouldn't be comfortable with being uncomfortable. I would want to feel more in control rather than finding something solving a problem and handing it off. So the learning part to me is really interesting because all the there's this there's a business handbook called the high growth handbook and it has all these um it's like a bible. It's really cool. Uh my friend gave it to me and she now started a business. I was like I see why. >> Incredible. Um, but in it there's a quote that says, "If your business isn't changing every 18 months, you're stagnating." So, you have to get really comfortable with that and you have to be motivated by that. So, that's been a constant. >> I think the thing that's changed isn't a nice thing that's changed. I think it's that um you have to get comfortable with knowing you've done all you can to help people, but sometimes like people won't be the right fit and it's okay and like people might be not able to perform at the level you need to in a scale up. You have to be super accountable and super for us it's super empathetic is the other one but in most every scale up you have to be accountable >> and I think it's really hard to have to make those decisions for the business and that I think learning that has been the hardest thing for me. We um just mess with the mic. We did a restructure last year. So I think it's and we're very much back on track and growing and hitting all our targets and it's six months into our next financial year. It's great and we made the right decisions. But I think in those moments >> it's been really hard for me to step back from being personal. >> And I think >> it probably came from a bad place in me. I think it came from me trying to have a bit of a savior complex. >> Like I used to think I was being empathetic by like trying to solve someone's problems in their life or keeping them on or trying to and it's like that's actually not me being empathetic. Me being empathetic is like keep the business going cuz that's it's like keep having a ship so it doesn't sink. >> Yeah. 100%. >> But also >> tell someone if they're not performing. >> Yeah. >> And like maybe they have to be let go to work out what direction their life should go in. >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I think some of the people that we've let go, all of them have found incredible jobs cuz it's nothing on their reflection or ability. Like I think of it like the sports team Netflix. Have you read their Netflix no rules rules book >> as in that will never work though? I don't know. >> There's one called No Rules Rules. And it Netflix is run really weirdly. Um >> I wouldn't take all of it. Very Amazy. Um but they essentially say that like >> you should not think about a business as a family. >> That's really toxic. >> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Instead, it should be a sports team. Yeah. Where like it doesn't mean you're a bad athlete if you're just >> if that sports team doesn't need wing attack at that point and you are the best wing attack person in the world. >> Yeah. 100%. >> You I mean you can tell I don't watch much sports. >> Me neither. Winger attack. >> You're a great girl. Yeah. But it's like if the team doesn't need that, that doesn't mean you're bad. You can thrive somewhere else. >> So I think making those hard decisions and making them >> in a more direct quick way where it's like, hey, this isn't working. M >> let's make this as easy and seamless and fair to everyone as we can. That's been really hard but I think that's changed a lot. >> I get it. Like it's still painful to go through and especially if you are doing it for the first Hey, but even that would be the first last time you would have had to first one. So it gets better and better. Definitely for some weird reason a story from like one of my earlier interviews literally like two years ago. So I'm going to plug another one. Check out my interview with Daniel Heggery who was the founder and CEO of Habito which was one of like the prop tech like disruptive brands. >> Really cool ads with um Melty uh drawings. >> Yeah. Yeah. 100% by Uncommon who I think is the best creative studio for brand. >> Incredible. The best the best. So shout out to the Uncommon team. We're both your fan girls. But there was something that he shared which was around he was getting like some push back from his team at a certain point around kind of the whole BC Corp thing. And it was again this sort of savior complex and he just really distinctly remembered how he was like being made out to kind of be the bad guy because he was sort of pushing against it and it was like it's like if you haven't been through that process before for anyone who's not aware the amount of time, energy and effort which is fantastic because it's a rigorous process and it's very you know and it should be obviously you know it's fantastic but what that does to the business and the distraction that that can create and it's to your point. What I'm just linking here is having a boat that doesn't sink. It's like we can't have any positive impact, social, environmental, or otherwise, if we don't have a business >> and if we can't be profitable and make money. >> And it's and again, it sort of sounds. like the CEO, you have to work yourself into a position where you've only got three jobs and they are making sure there's money in the account. You're attracting the best possible talent and you're communicating the vision. Like that's all it comes down to. I love that. >> But unfortunately, because you are so lovely, empathetic, caring, kind, everything else, the reality is is that when you have to have those tough conversations, I fully believe it was harder for you than it was for them. I feel it's like breakups. It's hard being the one doing the breakup >> probably. It's also really interesting like when we did that restructure someone messaged me and they said I've been they were like you know I want to apologize for not taking it well and she said I've been laid off twice before in you know the last two years but she went but I thought it'd be different cuz those were maleled companies >> and I completely appreciate where she's coming from. she chose to join a femaleled company cuz she I don't know maybe she thought I was making better decisions but it's really interesting cuz you're being held to this higher level of accountability and empathy >> standard >> and you're like still financially you have to keep everything going like you have to make the hard decisions >> money has no gender >> yeah but the expectations so different and I >> again I think however when people are going through hard times however they react >> that's okay because that doesn't it's just when your back's against the wall you never know what people are going to say and she was she she was so well-meaning. >> But I just remember reading this email and being like, >> do you know what's so interesting because we've touched on like investors and perception and maybe even, you know, possibly clients, but what we haven't really talked about and even just on this show more broadly is the unconscious bias from team as well, from staff. Yeah. >> This holding you to a different standard. >> Yeah. One of my um someone I met at a dinner actually, she runs a company with her brother. So it's really interesting because it's a family team >> and he said to her, "Oh my god, the problems people come to you with, they would never bring to >> Yeah. >> Or they just keep quiet about it because it's like we expect and and again that's that's fine. It's holding you to a higher standard because the the world needs to be a better place." >> Totally. >> But again, it's like pick the values and the battles you can have and if the business doesn't exist, I can't have any of this positive. >> Yeah. I'm literally not a charity. I'm not >> And I loved working the charity. Well, no, I didn't. the charity sector was too slow, but I like wish I could be a char I wish like but yeah that I I think it's really interesting my parents in the last few years have been like wow >> like old Jenny from even a year ago would have cried for ages about this stuff and I'm like you just have to make the hard decisions >> yeah you got to get on with it does it get any easier >> I think one of the reasons I left I think I really loved moving to well spending a lot of time in New York and that made me much bolder and more direct and I think the part of me that needed to like let go of this like savior or ego whatever it is >> got partly changed by New York and then when I came back to UK I felt like it didn't fit so much anymore. >> So one of the things now with splitting my time between New York and Italy >> Italy gives me the distance to feel like hey you're making hard decisions but like it's not like you're going to bump into one of your employees in the street. There is one person who lives in Rome, but it it the distance really helps me. And I think I didn't realize till I I moved in February and I didn't realize till then how much I was carrying >> this pressure and London started feeling kind of claustrophobic. >> And so >> you don't realize until you create that space for yourself. That makes complete sense. I totally get it. >> That's been super helpful. And what practically have you had to like implement or any practical changes for you to help I mean even just talking about the loc like physical location and geography and stuff as well as helps. Has there been anything else that sort of helps you operate at your best even in terms of like >> daily rituals or I just love that sort of stuff. >> It is fun. I was like how woo can we get? I would say like first thing is having a really great team. So my CFO, chief client officer, chief technology officer, chief people officer, all are like I know they've got it. I know they will never say they'll put their hand up to take something if they won't do it. They are so accountable. It is actually insane. So that really helps because they will flag things to me that are concerns I should have. Otherwise, I pull myself back into my new shy of the business, >> which again, it doesn't serve you. Three roles you I should not be helping run accounts. Um, so I know that that is the psychologically the best thing. And I think it took a long time before we could afford to hire people of that caliber. Like again, being revenue funded, you have to go junior first. >> But when I got them, it's like get them and trust them >> and like have a very honest relationship with them. So that's super helpful. >> The woo woo stuff. I mean, yeah, I started journaling. That was really great. I started journaling on the plane moving to Rome. So that was hilarious. Um I used to walk like do a fake walk commute every day. Coffee every morning. >> I did that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did that. It's >> like going to the veterinary office and that psychologically >> at least because I think when you wake up and you check your phone immediately and you go you spike that cortisol and you go straight into move your body. Yeah. >> You need to start your day feeling in control of it. And I think if you are pulled into it by these lovely omnipresent devices, you are working from this reactive cortisol place every day. So you just really need to like do something that reminds you you're in control. >> Um >> I quite like Joe Despensza. >> Have you listen to any Joe Despenszer meditations? That again makes you feel in control. >> Yeah, >> those are the things. Oh, and also um >> you can't not everyone can run away to live in a different country. Uh, one of the reasons I did it was too many random coffee requests, which I love, but I like can't help it. Like it's it's also like >> if you need to talk through ideas with someone, there are you have friends, reach. I don't know. I don't have right now. I don't have the capacity to help in the way I want to. So, I have this email template. Um, >> she's like, I'm literally not even in the country. >> Yeah. Well, so it's Yeah, I'm not that before I moved. Um, it's like uh I copied it from a book. I can't remember which book. It was It's great. It was like, "Hi, um, thank you for your your thank you for getting in touch to insert request here. Thank you for getting in touch to ask about a coffee." >> While I'm sure I would love to do that, I'm currently focusing on insert big project here. So, I'm currently focusing on US expansion. I'm currently focusing on uh financial financial structure my own company. So, I don't have time. However, and it's like because you know, however, I would love to help if I can. So, if you can send me back your questions via email and it takes me less than 10 minutes to answer, I will give you all the advice you want. Like, I will help. >> Amazing. I love that. >> No one replies. >> This is >> They never have because they haven't done the work of thinking what their questions are >> cuz they just want to like chimwag with you over coffee. I love I really am grateful for you sharing something that specific and practical because it's those things that really help our listeners and I think it's we talk a lot about, you know, how to say no. One thing is the awkwardness and I don't want to let them down or whatever. But also is like we don't know how to say it. So even just you sharing like how you phrase that is super super helpful. >> See there as in a template copy and paste it. >> Yeah. Incredible. >> It actually is so interesting. I'm just again I don't know if this is a gender thing. If it's not fine but like it's so interesting that people think they are they should get your time. >> They deserve your time. Yeah. And it's like if you hadn't even done the work of thinking what specific questions you wanted to ask me, >> why? Like you think buying me a coffee, like time is the most valuable asset anyone has in their life. Like >> you think £5 for a coffee is worth >> probably an hour commuting, an hour coffee, and an hour back for you to what >> like ask stream of consciousness things. Like to me it's like >> it's so disrespectful. >> There was one person who I was likeounding down. He's lovely. I hand I listened to a 2 and a half hour podcast he did. He is the founder of um Jellyfish. So he sold it the largest ever agency exit in the UK >> and he has so much experience and I knew I wanted to talk to him. We had mutual friends who've reached out. We had you know I listened to this two and a half hour podcast. I reached out to him. I then on the podcast he mentioned how he used to run uh the sunglasses hut shop in Gatwick airport. >> So when I was in Gatwick airport I took a photo of the shop and messaged it and said hey is this. and he agreed to do a call with me >> detail. >> I turned up to that call with questions. I turned up ready to end the call early. But it's like be focused. >> This is why you're you, Jenny. This is why you're in the minority. >> No, but anyone can do it. And this is the thing that again, everyone is underestimated. And I want to help people who are underestimated, but like don't underestimate yourself. Like do the work. >> And I find it so interesting. I think people it's often anxiety that stops them >> doing it. But it's like turn the anxiety into something productive. >> Yeah. I love that. If you have all these scenarios of what could go wrong or right in your head, write down the questions. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like, so that's >> But I think you're right. I think some people just, "Oh, we should have a chat." And it's like about what? >> Yes. >> You must get this all the time. >> I do. I mean, you you definitely a thousand times more than I do. But it but it is like, "How can I ask the question?" Especially if it is only via if you're not saying it in person. You know, things can be taken in a very different way if it's through text or email or whatever. If it's written down and I'm like, I just I'm like, "What do you want to know? What do you want to know? What do you want? >> What do you want to talk about? >> In the most polite way, what do you want? >> What do you want? >> Yeah. Um I before I come on with my closing traditional question here, I just want to share an observation. All those bits and bobs that you do to kind of help you, I guess, operate as your best self, the red thread I noticed throughout that is creating space. So whether it's the journaling that's creating mental space, doing a fake commute, literally going out space, being away, being in Rome, being away, space has been a really clear theme for me across all of that. And I think where >> you could get so easily bogged down in the minutia as you describe it. I think it at your level the way you're operating and of course advice for founders further down the line is you have to proactively create that space for yourself otherwise everything else is going to take over whether it's just >> I haven't heard it frame that way but that is you're so right and I think it's also really interesting it's the difference between again a lifestyle business founder and someone who's scaling a business that will survive without them if I am in everything >> yeah if I'm literally if there's no space it's not a successful business it's the genius yeah exactly has to scale without you. >> I actually find it we did this um it was so lovely. We did this like conference our retreat this week and so many of the speakers they were like you're so to my team they're like you're so lucky to have Jenny as a founder and she and I'm like please don't like just talk about inspiring things like it's very sweet. I I I find the ego stuff super uncomfortable and I also because I want to build up people who work for me. So I'm like the Jenny the Jenny show would be a lifestyle business. It's really not that cuz >> digital voices is so much more and it's I it really stresses me out the idea of being >> I can tell >> that word expect that from women. >> Yeah. >> Every time >> it's like oh yeah so do you just love this? >> Do you just love influence? Do you love like being consumed by work and having very little else in your life apart from the gym? Do you love that? >> Yeah. God you must feel so happy every day you get to run your little creative thing. that. No, I'm here. Like it's so frustrating. So yeah, >> this is creating generational wealth. >> Trying to love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. Oh, Jennifer, amazing. What's one tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson? >> Tragedy is a big question. Um, not tragedy. I think we I think we see things like moments as the moment that change thing. Like there are tragedies or there are successes, but it's actually like they're all micro moments. I would say I got de I got married super young and I got divorced super young. >> Oh, I forgot about this. Wait, how old again? >> I got married at 23, but just 20 or 22 23 legally and then Yeah, it was an interesting >> Were you just like badly in love at the time? Cuz that's very young. >> Uh, no. >> What was the reason for getting married? So, >> I felt like I needed to tick every box and succeed in every aspect of my life really early. So, I put >> Where did that come from? Why the rush? I think I was just some weird overachiever. I could say it to my parents, but my parents my brother isn't like this. My brother's like quite a know well balanced person who doesn't define his life by his career. I think I always wanted to succeed and to like make my parents proud and do everything right. So I think that's where I just internalized it. >> Um so I was just trying to tick every box really quickly. So during I was uh the the person was American and um to stay in the same country we partly had to get married but that wasn't why we did like a wedding like a big more of my mom's friends than mine cuz we were so young no none of my friends could afford to fly to America >> right >> like my friends were in the UK it's like they didn't even come they were like what are you doing like I kind of wish they'd asked me it's really funny um and then we were together officially for a year but it was the final year of my masters so I had 30 I had 30 freshmen at Harvard that I looked after in exchange for free accommodation and food. So I had to like arrange socials for them every week. I had to check their okay. I had to advise them on courses. I literally lived with them. I had four foster dogs that year. I traveled back and forth to Lebanon and Jordan. I was writing my thesis. I was doing Arabic every day. I literally for 10 weeks before I got married, >> I did an immersive Arabic course where they said, "Please don't speak to your family and friends because it's going to interrupt your learning." So I came out of that and then got married two days later. He like helped arrange the wedding. So I was like I won't be there. Um so I was just I think super neurotic partly because I didn't think I was good enough. I think it comes from like >> I felt compensate in the need to achieve something to have value >> which now I hope has broken a bit in my brain. >> So then him and I we should have always been friends like we had no connection. I feel bad. He was a lovely person. Um and then we were separated for so we separated after a year of being married and um it took like two over two years to get divorced. And I remember feeling like such a failure >> only cuz like I think marriage and having babies are things that people have so many opinions on. They're like it's a human thing to do. >> It's like it was so funny. I ran into this girl from school on the train and I was like, "Oh, I'm sure people from my secondary school will know that I went to Harvard for free and that I work at Google." And she saw me on the train. And she went, "Oh my god, Jen, I haven't seen you in ages. The only thing I know about you is you got divor." And I was like, "Oh my god, I've literally failed." I was like, in everyone's eyes, the thing they know is the failure. And that really switched my view because instead of like ticking all the boxes to succeed, I think I had a moment in my life at 25 where I was like, "Oh, if I wasn't scared of people thinking I failed, if I didn't have to be perfect, what would I do?" >> And so divorce isn't a tragedy. Divorce is great. Divorce is people deciding that they can be happier. Like it's this weird fundamental testament to hope and hope of the future that that like >> I get it. that like you you don't need to stay in something because actually what's coming next might be better. It's a weird sense of faith. >> And I'm going to draw the parallel with business as well. If it's not working, you're flogging a dead horse. Let it go. Move on. Like, pivot, fail fast, all that. You know, divorce your business if you have to. Yeah. Yeah. >> Which I think is great. I think people like again, America has a very different attitude to failure in the UK. >> So, um, >> when I had this moment where I was like, what would I do if I wasn't afraid of people thinking I was failing? What would I do? And then I was like, not actually happy at Google, so what else would I do? And I handed in my notice actually to do something completely different, not linked to marketing at all. And that fell through. So I was like, oh, I guess I should start freelancing. Um, so I started freelancing. And then it became the agency, but I never thought I would run an agency. >> Way to this phenomenally successful business. >> Whatever. It's successful for now. Like, who knows what. Do you know what I mean? It's just >> I'm so glad that you shared that story. That's incredible. It's kind of part of the game. >> This is what the whole show is about, literally. Hence the title, strategy and tragedy. >> And my ex is now very happily married and he's great and he's a whole person that he would never have been with me and I'm a whole person I would never have been with him. >> Yeah. Incredible. >> Yeah. >> It's interesting how it took kind of, you know, let's say like the worst of the worst. Like this failure to break free of the shackles of other people's perceptions to then be like, I'm actually free now. You kind of have to go you grow through what you go through. you have to go through kind of the worst of it, whether it is divorce, firing people, this is the worst, you know, to then come out the other side. And there's almost a sense of like it can only go up from here, right? Like it can't get anywhere. >> Yeah. And I think there's also like I don't know for me a character a character arc or whatever. And I think a lot of people have this. You're young and you you're a people pleaser. So you want to be liked. Then you get to a stage you're like actually I don't need to be liked by anyone everyone. I want to be respected by people and if they don't like me that's okay. And then as you get older, you're like, you know what, I need to like myself. And I think that it's it's taken it's taken well, 35 years. But I think it's it's really it's really weird to get to a stage where you're like, actually, I quite like myself. >> I love >> I don't know. It's so stupid. It's not stupid at all. >> So stupid. I think every time like why didn't I have this when I was 18? I'm like, God, I would have been insufferable. But yeah, it's funny. It's like >> it's the life. >> It's like in the end it's like if you look in the mirror at the end of the day, have you chosen your values? Do you live by them? Do you accept the decisions you've had to make? No one else is going to see the cards you're dealt. They'll all have opinions on the decision, but they're not living the cards you're dealt. So, are you happy with it? And if you're not, fine, make a change. But like, if you are happy with it, great. You've got to a stage that people in their lives never get to. Like, people live a whole existence never to like themselves. >> So, um, >> yeah, that's kind of where I am. That's what business has done to me. That's what >> I love it. So much wisdom. I don't feel like it's you accelerated you to like this wise this wise old woman but you got there in your 30. >> It is true though like business it teaches you so much and we talk about it from a pure practical business sense but the life stuff that you go through as well Jenny you've been absolutely phenomenal. This has been so much fun. Thank you so so much for coming on Strategy and Tragedy and absolutely pleasure to have you. >> It's been great for really thank you being so perceptive. It's been great and gong is great. Thank you to our sponsor. >> Fantastic. >> Thank you also for listening. Really hope you've enjoyed this. I really hope that you felt like a third wheel in the nicest possible way. Laughing with us, joking, listening, learning something new, getting new perspectives on all of this. If you've enjoyed it and you haven't already, please hit that follow subscribe button. Doesn't cost a single thing. Takes two seconds. Really helps me out. Episodes are weekly. So hopefully see you next time as well. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Bye.