Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid and this is where designers never stop learning. Now, every Thursday, Tommy Gio and I host a new live show called Dive Radio where we get into some of the topics that matter most for designers and get to hear from some of our favorite people in the industry. And I want to do a little bonus episode this week where we pull out a chunk of that conversation where Tommy and I look at what's working when it comes to design portfolios today. And my hope is that it helps you spark some ideas for your own website. I look at a ton of portfolios through the talent network and you do kind of start to see strategies emerge. And I think there are certain pros and cons to different strategies depending on who you are and what you have available to to sell yourself with. And so even before saying, you know, I I definitely don't want to say like right or wrong that much cuz I don't think that really exists in the world of portfolios, but I do think it is super helpful to understand the types of patterns that are getting hiring managers to click through and say like, "Yes, I'd like to talk to this person." >> Well, let's let's dive right into like world building here, right? This is who has you land immediately and I like that it's like a clear as day. There are two things that are apparent to me. I see exactly who that this is a personal portfolio. Um what I can expect in context senior visual and web designer 15 years and I'm about to enter what looks like a playground and immediately the heristic of being able to grab and move around. It's like okay there's there's like some personality and charm here. There's the ability to kind of zoom in. I dig it. I'm personally a really big fan of the ability to move between compartmentalized versions. I actually think it's largely a safer bet to put the playground in one tab and the like work in another. We'll get into some balanced examples, but I do think this sort of playground that he's created here is really compelling. I think this is a nice way to kind of get to some of that simplicity. You got to give a shout out because this >> is exactly that foundational stuff, which means what's left to show. >> Now I know why you like this one. Judgement, >> you know. So he he puts some love there. Hey, got to give some love back. But um I did think this was cool. And then this is actually a scene he pulled from the portfolio episode, which I thought was kind of cool. >> Um because I think that's a little bit of where that's coming from. Meanwhile, you get like the Tom Johnson's, you get Pablo Stanley world building here, right? And the criticism I'll give to Pablo and Tom, which these are incredible. Like, how can you criticize any of them, is that the world building, uh, at a glance, maybe there's some room to be desired. Maybe not. I don't know. I'd have to think about that a little bit. Like, this this intentionally leans into learn through exploration. Like, that's an intentional decision. So, it's like, yeah, I don't I don't dis dislike that. But for me, as somebody skimming this stuff, like, I'm going to play with this. This says everything I need to know about Pablo. Like, okay, yeah, I get it. But I do like the ability to jump into these worlds and see what I'm about to get into before I get into it. And so, Hangju, he's a friend of mine who has been exploring a lot. You land on his portfolio and this is what you see. And this is super hard for me. This is really impressive. on one hand, it's also hard to make sense of for a number of reasons. The type's hard to read. I don't totally understand what it is that I'm interfacing with here. And and I guess I should probably show when you load in on this, you get kind of this like initial splash screen, which I'm This Listen, all of this brings me back to like 1999, 2001, >> young teenager in me who absolutely adored the flash era. So there's there's a lot of nostalgia here that I love, but effectively is this going to work for your portfolio? And I'm trying to figure out there is a way to kind of Oh, yeah. Here we go. So there's like I can learn about him again. Super hard to comprehend visually. Very interesting. I come out to this view sort of like the Matrix console of sorts. It has some performance uh to be desired, but that's solvable. This is a macro view, right? This to me is something that I can sink my teeth into and then start picking and choosing how I want to drill into. I would love to start from, you know, your world builds from like a view that looks a lot more like this. Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. I think it's safe to say that this is your last chance to be early on paper and it feels like everybody is talking about it on Twitter. I mean, guests are constantly bringing it up on this show. They just raised a massive series A and paper's pretty quickly become the design tool of choice for people shipping with agents. It really feels like it was built specifically for this new way of working and that's a big reason why I use it every single day. So, if you're still sleeping, head to dive.com/paper and I think you're really quickly going to realize why so many designers are making the switch. So, I'm working on a new dive website right now. And let me tell you, having everything I need within Framer is a pretty big deal. It's so much more than just a website builder now. It really is a full AI design agent. I can explore ideas on a canvas, build out responsive pages, even set up my CMS for all of the episodes, which is incredibly helpful. But it's not just about the convenience. Framer also raises the ceiling for what I can create. like they just released a whole set of 3D tooling so agents can work with perspective, depth, origin, and then I can fine-tune properties directly on the canvas without having to prompt back and forth. It's just another reason why I build absolutely everything for Dive on top of Framer. So, head to dive.comclub/framer to start creating today. Now, on to the episode. Let me show you an example of something that I think when we talk about playgrounds aren't necessarily and then I'll kick it over to you on the world building side. I think maybe and I I am not trying to on this person. I think there are some things that are really interesting here, but this to me is a little bit too much noise. I'm not going to play it with sound because it's like a a really hype rap song. It's cool. I just don't know if we can play that here. So, we're going to enter muted. So, it's like this is wild to me. I don't know that this is necessarily very effective as a portfolio. So we can kind of >> what kind of person what is this person's role? Are you able to tell? >> It starts it starts here. This is actually where it starts. So this is what you see. Okay. Yogi Surya design motion and code by one person, right? And then like I think you can like you kind of but then if you start to scroll into things you get kind of this like you get to go through the world here. You can click on these things. Like, don't get me wrong, this is very technically impressive. There are visual things that are very interesting here. This is also, you know, Dan Petty kind of gave feedback that like he was getting motion sickness looking at the alternating carousels. Yeah, I I get a lot of that from kind of this too. I get a little bit of pretense. I get a few things that I'm like, okay, I don't know necessarily what to do with this, but it seems like there is some some level of uh intention here that's pretty dope, you know? So >> the reason I asked what the role is is I I can see I've seen this portfolio be very effective but only for this specific type of person like if you are selling yourself as hey I'm this creative that is going to come in and own web maybe I'm like a brand engineer um I can do you know 3JS stuff then the more like minimal portfolios actually kind of do you a disservice. They're not going to read a case study. It's less about impact. They don't really want to know how you think even to a degree. It's like just what are you capable of, you know, like can you make magic happen on the internet? It's risky to have this approach, but if you can pull it off like this might be effective actually. This might >> there's there's like a very specific type of role. >> Look at the like him going through this kind of wormhole portal and then distorting and then back into it. Like there's a lot of intentionality happening in this, right? So, I I completely agree. I'm looking at the world building. I'm looking at the playgrounds. And I would love for this to be something I can get in and out of while kind of seeing a more a cleaner version of your portfolio. Do you have an example of something world building or playground like? >> Actually, the thing that I was about to bring up was Tom Johnson's because he has that button bottom left that flips it to like the traditional view. I don't know if you saw that, but to me that was actually really strategic. There's like a high level idea that I have which is I think you have to be really wary of middle grounds like either do something that is polished and restrained or freaking send it. But if you send it, it better be good. If you get trapped in this middle ground where it's like kind of overdesigned but it's not really that special, that's actually think where it gets the most dangerous. And I think that's what I like about what he did is he gives you both extremes and nothing else. Yeah, I think this is I didn't I didn't know about this part. He's he's done quite a bit here that I wasn't aware of, which is pretty cool. You know, you make a good point because it leads me to like the other category, which is like these simple flexes, right? Like Jacob Cray here. It's just like, yep, >> here's where I'm working. Here's who I am. Here's links to my projects. Here's things I've written about. You can get my thinking. And I call these the simple flex because this is the kind of thing that can be useful and really effective, but it's not going to work likely for like a junior designer who doesn't have a lot to put here. >> Totally. >> And especially things that like are really worth putting here. You look at like a lot of people who kind of there's like you can you can flex when you have some pedigree behind you, when you have some projects. This is Charles Patterson, designer at Microsoft AI. He's behind on design. This is kind of what you get. And it's dope. It's kind of all you need to know about him right now, you know, because he's in the middle of working and grinding. And you look at Benji, same thing, right? It's like you don't really not not trying to so much as sell himself cuz they kind of don't have to. They're in the midst of something dope. This is Klay Park >> where >> Yeah. >> You look at like, dude, none of this is even interactive. It just links to the website. There's no case studies, anything. But you have the pedigree so you can get by with a resume. And I think there actually is danger in looking at the best designers and copying their style one for one because the vast majority of people like even for myself if I would do this style of portfolio I get tossed aside for sure because I don't have a bunch of big names that are recognizable. So like just putting my resume with my image is not going to work. But for Chloe it crushes dude. like this is such a flex, you know, like it's almost like if she were to sell herself, it would actually do her a disservice. Whereas this entire portfolio screams, I don't need to sell myself. >> It's the simple flex, you know? I think the person who kind of was the OG on the simple flex was Paul McGregor, right? He's over there at linear now, but Tumblr, Twitter, like just miscellaneous. Don't worry about it, you know? And it's there's something to be admired about, I think, being able to do this. What's cool and then it has like one little accent sort of thing. you could change the theme on it. This I remember standing out to me. But if this like simple flex concept isn't really going to do you a whole lot of service, um there's two things you can do. And I think one of those things that you can do is do what Tim Vanam did at Figma and take the sort of simple flex and still add some of the personality and and the visual the aesthetic that represents you. And I think he killed this, right? Like it's just an about section. This is really just a digital resume done in this comic book aesthetic. Just changes the perspective a little bit. And I'm like, dude, this is so good. >> It's so freaking good. And it's this idea that I keep coming back to where if you can just have one idea that is really creative and then pair that with simplicity. It's almost the like that's almost like the the holy grail of portfolio, you know, cuz you scroll this one time and you're like, "Oh, dude, Tim's so creative." >> Yeah. >> And that there's nothing else. He's not trying to overdo it. I love that he's like, I'm gonna take a picture of me that shows me like, you know, presenting at a conference or something that's got its own source of street cred and I'm gonna just like I'm gonna draw on it, you know, and and I'm like, that's so that's I I love that a lot. Some people are like, no, no, but I'm really proud of the work or I want to really start with showcasing the work. >> Can I cut you off? Can I cut you off? I'm going to cut you off. I'm going to cut you off probably a bunch of stuff and we'll just train wreck each other because there's going to be things to share. You're the king of Segways. I'm going to blow them all up. >> Cool. >> Another I'm going to show one example. I've showed this one other time, but I I just want to keep coming back to it because this was literally shared with me as an example of the type of person that they wanted to hire. And it's Claire Taylor who we had callin for the founding designer episode. You look at this page. I mean, this is about as minimal as it gets, right? But she picked her place to go above and beyond. and it was just when you click on her her past work. So you have like a nice little hover state there when you click on it. >> So this is beautiful the way that it slides in like yeah you know it's a nice case study whatever this little interaction is where she she went above and beyond and I had a hiring manager take video and put it into Slack and said we want to hire somebody like Claire Taylor because of this and all it is is this back transition. Do you see that >> where it peaks? It's like so simple and yet her unique angle where she demonstrated her creativity was the way that the page overlaid and then the way that you navigate back and we'll do a custom cursor and then slide it away and we'll do that's how you're going to get in and out of my work. And that little that was that thing was enough for her to like immediately get past the portfolio stage as somebody like yeah we need to talk to this person. It's like restrained, especially not in a way where we can do everything so easily just by prompting Claude. That combination of like restraint, but one or two really creative interactions is that's the superpower. >> There are two ways you can storyt tell that you are a designer who designs with intentionality. You can say it in a bunch of words or language or you can just show it by, hey, here's what's minimal and here are the things that are very clearly contrasting what's minimal because I intentionally made them more interesting. So this is Gui here. He's a design director at Figma. And at first glance, you look at this and you're like, okay, typical, minimal, no design, and it's like a leadership portfolio that doesn't do anything, right? But then you realize, oh, it's a single viewport and the cursor is a video. And when you click play, it's a show reel and now the cursor is an X. I think this is so sick, dude. Are you kidding me? You pair this with everything that we talked about with using Opus 5.5 to animate your work, maybe it would become overdone too quickly, but there's so much alpha right now to literally just copy this strategy for a portfolio. I think it is so good. I think it's so good. >> No, I I I love that. And and while we're at balance, I I want to show something that in comparison to some of these just much more interactive portfolios, we might say, I still really think there's a ton of value in showing something like Pip Turner. What I like about this, and maybe like I just like that it's just so clearly readable for me. Um, and that's a lot of fun. And it's like, okay, he's got some like shader stuff happening that we could play with. But like, this is what I kind of dig is I don't always, especially if you're a hiring manager, you know that like you just came out of four meetings, you have 30 minutes break, you're probably eating lunch while you're going through 50 portfolios to determine who's going to make it to the interview stage, and you're trying to, you know, wolf down that sandwich before you get into another meeting afterwards. And so you don't have necessarily the time to go through every portfolio and read the case study and learn the thinking. You're trying to skim a vibe. Is this person look like they've worked in the same field? Do they look like they have the chops for X, Y, or Z discipline? And I think a portfolio very similar to what we're seeing with Pip here, who's like, hey, there's some work here. You can kind of see, you get the app, you know, you can kind of see what some of the work is. Here's some like larger projects. here are my experiments. You know, he's not creating necessarily the Zen Garden experience to show you his experiments, but he is giving you plenty of proof that he does in fact experiment and his experiments are pretty interesting, you know, um that he is spending a lot of time tinkering. And I think the way that he has gone through this, here are some talks he has and then contact and that's it. I think there's something beautiful about still doing the the simple. I mean, this is there's some things on this that aren't simple, but I think the layout of information here, this is a portfolio built to clearly get through the door, >> and I think he does a good job of that with this. >> Let's imagine three types of portfolios. One is you show a bunch of thumbnails and you have to click in and go to the case study. I think that was the old way of doing portfolios. I think it is playing on hard mode right now because you're requiring clicks. It kind of downplays your homepage a little bit. Like the homepage is the star. Dan was talking about it. We've talked about it in the past. Like >> if you are redesigning your portfolio today, I would take that historical concept of how we think about a portfolio and throw it in the trash and do something else. Then it's a question of okay, how are you organizing your work? Is it more like marketing site style where you have a single column? I see that a lot. Everything's in one view. This is what Pip's doing here. Another thing that I see is having your almost like a combination of putting the work with the resume in one. There's one question that I can't stop asking myself. What if companies applied to talk to you rather than the other way around? And that question is the foundation for the all-new dive talent network. And it's working. Like right now, I'm helping many of the most exciting startups that I know to hire the designers and builders who listen to this show. So, if you're curious what might be out there and maybe you want to get on my list or maybe you're even looking for your next design hire, head to dive.comclub/talent to join today. I think this is really interesting from Moritz cuz at a high level, it's the simplest concept. Here is where I've worked, here is the work, right? And you can click on any individual thing and then it opens up in this detail view. When you really think about the the IIA that's h Oh, and there's no text by the way. It's just like just nice visuals. When you think about the information architecture of what's happening here, I mean, it's like it's very very simple, but it's it's it's clever. It's unique, right? This would be an example of one that I really like that is everything almost a little bit more like pips where everything's in a single view. this. I had a really positive reaction to this one here where I can just scroll, right? He doesn't make me click on anything. There's a really unique layout. I actually think these cards are kind of fresh. The way that he's he's diving up the work. If I want to click on >> like a corners grid together, that's fun. >> It's cool, right? It's like It's really It's really cool. And then you can click on anything and there is like a case study for it, but you don't actually have to, man. Like I'm sold. The case studies aren't at least the one you showed there wasn't this like novel of thing I have to dig into. It was very >> I thought it was a good number of characters per slide. >> Yeah, agreed. This is another one I think is really interesting. This is John B. So interviewed him um cursor now SpaceX. He was one of the designers behind Grockbot. I think this is so simple and really effective actually. I'm like, "Yeah, there's some fancy logos and that helps, but I think it's okay because right away I'm able to see who this person is and where they've worked and then I have a single scroll track that's just a big thing of everything that they made and I can see." >> I like how he compartmentalizes each project. That's sometimes is the hard part is like we create such uniformity across >> like the scrolling effect of projects and work that it it it can be really helpful to get to be able to visually just tell like okay that's that's one thing. All right, that's like these are separate things. >> Yeah, I love it. I almost feel like I would have played with the background color as the selected state over here to tie them make them the exact same. But this is so like if you think about like the job that the hiring manager has when they're coming here, they want to understand who you are, what's your background, and what quality of work can you do. I don't know if there's an easier journey to put a hiring manager on the John B portfolio. This is this is really freaking good. And it doesn't actually require the heavy-hitting logos. If it works good, it's going to be good enough and you're going to give people the complete picture. >> Now, someone here says, "I have the imposttor syndrome is real. Everyone's portfolio is too dope. How am I supposed to finish mine?" And and I want to go back to the original disclaimer where different portfolios work for different levels. And I think what's certainly not going to be represented well today, which we will represent much better next week, is for that junior or that mid-career level where it's like I'm not super proud of my work yet or for some reason I didn't really get to create what I wanted because, you know, the the organization went a different direction or you only have one or two projects. What do you do in that case? I got I got some ideas. >> Do you if you have some stuff to show I'd like to because I certainly pulled from more of the senior levels of things I liked and didn't like. >> Let me paint the edges of the of the full thing. >> Let's do it. >> This is the perfect This is the opposite end of the spectrum where it's like I'm a senior designer and I have an unbelievable large body of work. This is Lauren Del Re's portfolio and it's just like it's ridiculous, right? You can do things like this when you have an incredible body of work. But if you don't have an incredible body of work, what do you do? I have a few early career people. This is uh Andrea Dilva. I got to meet her at Config. She just got hired out of an internship at Metal Lab and I think her portfolio is phenomenal, but she didn't have a huge body of work. So, what it forces you to do is like you can't do the minimal thing because you don't have the logos. You can't just do the resume style. You can't do the I'm just going to dump a ton of images of all of my work because maybe you only have 18 months of work under your belt. So, what do you do? Well, the portfolio experience itself has to be good. You have to raise the bar of what the portfolio is. Maybe that means playground, but I don't I I think mo I think Andrea probably would have failed if she would have tried to copy Tom John because it's very hard to do. So, what she did is this composition is nice. She there's like little hover states. Like I remember when I scroll this portfolio for the first time and I'm like, "Oh, okay. That's really interesting." Like that feels good. So, check one right away. We have made a positive first impression because I can tell that she really sweat the details on this interaction. Even down to the shadows are really tastefully done. So now I'm still scrolling. I'm a little bit hooked. Okay, here's my experience. She knows she can't just write a resume because it's it's fine, dude. Like it's not that much. It's just a bunch of internships. So what she did is she thought about this really unique composition. She pulled like a nice Oh, look at that. She animated the iconography. Um if you switch Look at that. >> That's cool. Yeah. kind of fun, right? And look, there's not even like the work. I I'm not actually even seeing the work undo the NDA. Is it really or does she just make up a two-month internship? We don't know. But I'm still kind of getting sold because she designed this portfolio. Every little detail moves. You feel things. It feels really good. If you go to uh even this, look at this. You can like click on her learn more about me. Like >> I love that. And and again, just to call this out because for anyone listening right now and you are making your portfolio right now as we're talking and you want us to review it next week and whether you're a junior or senior, the thing to call out is these intentional interactions and these intentional details. The reason they work so well, aside from that, you know, in a silo, those details being executed well, is that they're contrasting against simplicity, right? It really like when you have if you just if you are just full screen and I look at some of the earlier worldbuing examples where there's just a lot of noise, it is hard for me to discern where your intentionality showed up. And that's something that she's doing so well here. >> Yeah. Somebody brought up how a big part of the portfolio is to make it clear what AI did blindly versus what you did. I think it gets a little bit easier when you do something like this because you're very intentionally sprinkling a little bit of care into like a corner. >> I have another a couple other examples. One, >> can I can I say something real quick? I just had an idea and I think someone should try and like judge this idea a tiny bit, but imagine like you have a simple portfolio that looks maybe like this and you have multiplayer cursor come in. It's an AI cursor and it starts to juzj up something that AI genuinely helped you build on the cursor or on the portfolio and then you come in on your cursor and maybe like the actual intentionality of you has this quick exchange with the AI and that thing turns into its final form. Yeah, >> those little details could be kind of visually interesting. >> Yeah, I think that's a perfect example of a creative nugget that is such a green flag. Like that's just a creative idea, you know? I think I would have a very positive reaction to that. I'm going to show a few other examples of earlier career portfolios that are having some um I think they work. Like I think they work. This is kind of interesting. This is a little bit more worldbuildy where it is minimal, but like look, you can like click and like there's like these ripple effects in the sky. Look at the cursor. I don't know if this is showing up in the screen um grabb, but there's like this trailing effect. I actually think it's really good. Most of the time I don't like custom cursors. I think this is really good. Her resume is here. Look at that effect. It's weird in a way that's kind of cool. And then you get into the work like this and you can click a portfolio or or yeah, click into like a single case study and whatnot. But this is an example where I think this works solely because the aesthetic is good, which is kind of interesting. And I think it again is emphasizing this point where if you don't have the resume and you don't have the body of work, >> then the portfolio itself is going to do the majority of the selling. And Utah's worked here. Like everybody I've showed this portfolio to has really liked it because it's it's cool. Like it's the portfolio itself is aesthetically cool. Will the recruiter have time to check out all of these hover states? Let's talk about this for a second. What company are you applying to? I think is really what it comes down to. The most competitive roles right now want to see designers that care. That is one of the easiest ways to demonstrate that. But if you're applying to a mid-market accounting tech company, yeah, maybe they don't care at all. I think I think this goes down to like you got to know who you're applying to. And I I think both of us probably gravitate towards maybe what a lot of other people maybe on LinkedIn or Reddit would consider like the higher end of the market where people do want to see that you care. >> And and that's so true. True. I mean, there's definitely companies who are going to want something that's clearer that that maybe looks a little bit more what we were used to uh 6 7 8 years ago. And and even I think they'll still play today. I mean, you have to tailor this. But so the other piece is like the portfolio again, it's the it's the thing that gets you the phone call. And there are two people who are looking at the portfolio. There's the recruiter in some cases if they have a recruiting department and you might have a recruiter who's like uh the notion recruiting team who actually know what they're looking for. Then you might have a recruiter who's like across four or five different functions and they're like this looks like they know what they're doing. I'm going to collect this into the big batch that I'm then giving to the more trained eye of the next stage of hiring manager who will also then look at your portfolio. So that part's tough. That's it's it's it's a tough it really has to come down to like who do you think the company um is optimizing for. >> Let me just fly through a couple ones that I also saved. This was another early career one. Um, it's an example of I think the single scroll track, right? There's not a ton of it. So, what did what did he do? Well, he made it bigger. Like, it's such a simple thing. But the people that have the massive bodies of work, the, you know, Laurent kind of thing, they're really small. For this, it's like, no, I'm just going to like blow this up. And >> I guarantee Yeah. So, like he built this entire thing here. It looks dope. he led with something that he made probably because the the work that maybe he's been paid to do doesn't look as sexy, you know, like that's that's the reality of what you kind of have to do too as somebody that doesn't have this massive body of work. Like go make a little side project and make that the first impression of your portfolio. I think that is interesting. And then the last one, okay, this is really interesting. This one is I I think almost polarizing. So Justice Kim, not a lot of experience, still in school. Okay, still in school studying HCI and design, right? like we don't have the body of work, but look what he did. So he said he started off in 2025 with the thing that he's doing and it's just working on the the Wonder design tool and it's under NDA. It's nothing. So he like literally has nothing to show. So what he did was made a timeline that goes into the future >> about what types of things he wants to work on. >> That's that's clever. I like it. >> This is really clever, right? Like that's like a my point is like don't give in to this feeling of like I don't have the work and I I I don't have the resume. Like dude, you can figure something else out. Like you can do something. Just like be creative. Make it a space for yourself. If this person in school was able to make something that immediately makes a hiring manager take them seriously and maybe want to make a bet like you can figure something out. >> There's so many dimensions and mediums to how to tell stories. That is a topic that I could dedicate a full episode to to help you guys figure out how do you tell good stories. Um, it's obviously something I'm very passionate about. I think designers are inclined to be good. They're good at it. They can be better at it than they think, I think, sometimes. And this is a great example of one of those ways to do that. I have more things that we're going to show. We're running low on time. So, this is what I want to do because next week, I mean, genuinely, we're I'm I'm I I leave on Sunday to go film a documentary. I come back the day of our live stream. So, I will be literally right off the plane jumping into the show, which is cool because we're just going to be talking about the the portfolios you guys submit. One last shout out to how to submit those portfolios at inflight.co/portfolio. Please install the inflight widget. This is free. It's not something you have to pay for. um and enter in three to five questions that we and the community can answer for you on the portfolio. Help us get specific and we will do that both live and we will leave the data inside of that widget which you can then take and actually apply to whatever improvements you decide to make through the MCP. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget that every Thursday I go live with Tommy Gio for Dive Radio, where we deep dive into trending topics and hear from a ton of incredible designers in the industry. So, if you want to get that on your calendar, just go to dive.comclub/radio. And I'll see you on Thursdays at 400 p.m. Eastern.