Honestly, the business was a hot mess. As the brand grows, I'm not going to lie, I get more nervous about it. Your business is crumbling. It's horrible, horrible place to be. I can't even tell you how bad it was. It was such a dark place. I didn't think I was going to get out of it. It was hell. Welcome to Pearls of Wisdom, the podcast where we talk all about the messy middle of starting a business. Today, I have on Ramona, the founder of Rani & Co, which is a feminist empowerment jewelry brand, which actually started as a feminist slogan clothing brand, but I will let her tell you all about the story in this episode. As always, don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe. And let me know in the comments below if there are any founders that you would like me to have on, because I have a feeling there's going to be a season 2. >> >> So, I'm here today with Ramona, the founder of Rani & Co. Thank you so much for being here today. >> me. >> So, I want to open up with what's the most chaotic thing that's happened this week or last week? >> >> What a great first question. So, the most chaotic thing that's happened is actually, it's quite a personal thing. >> Mhm. >> But I don't see many people talking about it, many people who have a business. It's actually, um, I am going through a breakup, which is very fresh. It's only happened a couple of weeks ago. And I have Black Friday this week. My Black Friday starts. It's not happened at a good time. >> not happened, never happens a good time. >> happens at good times, but this week is so, like, crucial for the business, and it's just, um, I mean, in some ways it's good because I'm distracted with work, but also, like, I've had to take a little bit of time off, but I'm so lucky that my team have been so supportive. I wasn't sure whether telling them my situation was professional, but I told them and it's it's a it's a thing that's so relatable to so many people and they've been so supportive. They're like, "Don't worry, Monia. Like, we will take extra work if you need us to." And they're doing it. >> Oh, I love that. Oh, I'm sorry to hear about your breakup. I'm sure we'll delve more into it later cuz I think, like you say, it's an important thing. Like, a lot of we were saying as founders are I mean, I'm very single, but some founders I know have been in very long-term relationships and we never hear people talking about dating while they're building, yeah. >> It's a whole It's a ballgame. It's a hard one. >> >> So, for anyone who hasn't heard of Rania and Co, can you give us a quick elevator pitch, please? >> Yes. So, Rania and Co, we sell storytelling jewelry that reminds women of their inherent power in a world that often challenges it. So, our core value is feminism. And I have strong feminist beliefs. So, lots of our collections um are goddess-themed. We've got the animal queens and collection, which celebrates animals that live in a matriarchy. And then we have our healing crystals. So, they're all very empowerment themes. Um Yeah, and it's just a really, really beautiful business, which we just bring women together and they share their stories behind why they buy the jewelry and it's beautiful. >> And the jewelry is gorgeous as well. So, it's very, very well designed and well made and I've got lots of questions to ask you about it. But, take me back to the early days. At what point did you decide, "I'm going to be a business owner. I'm going to do this."? >> I think I always I always knew I was going to be a business owner from a young age. >> more. >> Because I didn't like being told what to do. >> Preach. >> I hated it. I hated it. >> >> Um and I didn't really enjoy school. >> Mhm. >> Um I didn't understand the education system cuz I'm a creative, I'm an artist, and it just kind of boxes you into one kind of thing, and it didn't make sense to me. Um and it's always how I envisioned myself when I was older. Um but I knew that I really wanted to start a business. Um it was So, after university, I did accounting and finance at uni. The least creative thing. >> It was so boring. >> Yeah. And I was not good at it. Um So, then after university, I went into marketing for 5 years. Different types of marketing. Um And like yes, marketing I find it so interesting, but the companies I was working for, I just found it so boring. And I was like, I have to start my own thing cuz like I was like, there has to be more to life. Like I was at work miserable. I would go to the toilet and just cry because I was like, this There has to be more to life. Um and I came up with all these different ideas. I was going to turn my parents' business into a laser hair removal clinic. They were like, absolutely not. Do not touch our business. >> What is their business? >> They are both dentists. >> Ah. >> Yeah. So, their dental practice. I was like, oh, I'm going to convert it into something. They're like, no, that's our practice. >> No, no, staying as a dental practice. >> >> And then I was like, I'm going to go into property. And I was like, Mom and Dad, we're we're going to release equity on the house. Again, they're like, absolutely not. Who do you think you are? >> Mom and Dad, this is we're all doing this together. >> I was I was just so desperate. I had all these different ideas. Like an Amazon drop shipping and all of this. Um but nothing was sticking. And it wasn't until I came up with the idea of running it. This is it. Like it just really like lit me up. And I became so obsessed with the idea of it. I was like, this needs to become a reality. >> Yeah. I'm obsessed. And the first business wasn't jewelry. >> No. >> So, talk to me more about that. >> I mean, they say that a lot of first businesses fail. >> Mhm. >> Um so, Ronnie K started as a clothing brand, a feminist slogan clothing brand. Um and it was I started it because Dior brought out their viral T-shirt at the time which said we should all be feminists, and this was 2017, and it was literally all over the internet. >> Yeah. >> And then you got the big um fast fashion brands like Missguided, they came came up with their own T-shirts like girl gang, girl club, and I was like, "Oh, this is such a cheap and commercialized form of feminism." And I was like, "Actually, I've always had this gratitude towards the fact that the this in this day and age like women can do pretty much anything." >> Yeah. >> Um and it's the women who have fought for our rights who have given us everything that we have today. >> Mhm. >> So, I've always had an appreciation for that, and I was like, "Actually, I want to celebrate those women because we we're not taught about these women at school. We forget about them like the Ruth Bader Ginsburgs, the Frida Kahlos, and so on." >> So, I started um slogan tops were so in at that time. So, I yeah. So, I started a feminist slogan clothing brand, and it just it didn't it didn't work. Um I wasn't good at designing clothing. And there were feminists that I don't think people a lot of people actually knew who these feminists were, which I find is so sad. >> Mhm. >> Um but then when you have to educate the audience thing, it makes a business a lot harder. >> Yeah. >> Um I was selling bits of wholesale jewelry as part of the brand. So, this was wholesale jewelry from China. >> Oh. >> That was my mom's idea. She was like, "Why don't you do jewelry?" I was like, "Mhm, I don't know. It doesn't really go with the brand." But I was like, "Let's just give it a go." And honestly, the business was a hot mess. Like I was doing feminist slogan clothing with like star jewelry. Like none of it made sense. But the jewelry was selling more, and it was more profitable. >> Mhm. Interesting. >> "Okay, there's something in this." >> Mhm. >> Um and then I was with a friend that I was help my friend was helping me at the time, and he was like, "You need to make this into a jewelry brand, otherwise you don't have a business." >> Yeah. >> So, just pivoted. I was really stubborn about it at first. I was like, "No, it's going to be clothing. It's going to work." 3 years it wasn't working. So, I was like, "This needs to change." Um and then it became a jewelry business, and it literally just like skyrocketed like every year. >> So, yeah, it's very lucky. >> love that. And what did you learn from that pivot? Did you learn any lessons? >> So much. One, you have to adapt as a business person. If something's not working, you need to understand why. If the customer does not want to buy your product, they do not want to buy your product. >> Mhm. >> Um and it's just not good enough. >> Yeah. And you can't be stubborn, which is so hard, but you can't. >> hard because you might like the product, but it's the customer that's the important bit. Um and also, when you start a business, it's better to start with a really strong niche or like one hero product. I was starting with a range of products, and then I even started doing phone cases and wall art. And I'm like, "Okay, this is becoming so diluted." It was so confusing. And um you can't do that. You need to come up with a really strong product to begin with, um and then expand on that. >> Yeah. And what was the first product you then kind of launched with with Running K when you made that pivot? Were you Or was it a slow journey? Did it go from like wholesaling from China to then designing it all? >> It was wholesaling from China from China, yeah. But in 2020 I designed my first piece. I think it was actually this ring that I'm wearing now, the moonstone teardrop ring. And 5 years later it's still a best seller. It's such an easy, simple design. It's gorgeous. But now my new designs are a lot more intricate cuz I I have an idea of how to design stuff now. But when I started, it was just a very quick sketch, photoshopping stuff together, and sending it to a manufacturer. >> And how did you learn all of those skills? I think you just learn on the job. Yeah. >> Accounting and finance didn't give you those skills. >> Oh, it gave me nothing. Like I I hire an accountant now. I I can't do my accounts. Um you just learn. You YouTube, you Google. Everything all the knowledge you want is literally free. So you need to make the most of it. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's true. So true. It's all It's all at your fingertips. It's just having the having the sort of um what's the word I'm looking for? Initiative. >> Exactly. And go and looking for And to be inquisitive as well and question things for sure. >> Exactly. >> So I want to switch over to a bit of social media now. You're a certified social media queen. >> So I'm certifying you as a social media queen. >> Certified from the certified. >> >> And um so talk to me about sort of the way you run your social media and the storytelling behind it. Like where does that all come from? >> I wish I had like a really strong social media strategy but I kind of I kind of don't. So I feel like I don't really have time. So I run the social media. How do I go about it? It's different for TikTok and Instagram. Instagram I have more of a strategy. TikTok is a lot more fun, a lot more authentic and storytelling works so well on TikTok. So for me storytelling is the story behind why customers buy our jewelry because on their orders they often leave little notes and it's so sweet and it's often stories about like women going through IVF and they're going through a lots of rounds. Those women often buy like a goddess jewelry piece or our trust the timing necklace. Or you know, women going through divorces, breakups, but also women getting their dream jobs and finally having like their rainbow baby. Like really beautiful stories. And then I create content from that. >> I love that. >> With Instagram, I set pillars. >> Mhm. >> So, I have five pillars or four pillars, which is promotion, education, entertainment, and I can't remember the other one. But, under each pillar, there will be like for promotion, that could be like influencer content or product focused content. Education will be talking about like feminism or educating about a manufacturer. Um entertainment is the fun stuff, like reposting high-performing content from TikTok onto Instagram. Um So, that's how I go about Instagram, but they both do have different strategies. >> >> I hate it now, cuz back in the day, it was just whatever went on Instagram, throw on TikTok, and vice versa. And now, it's like they're in ecosystems. They they need tending to in their own ways. >> Cuz TikTok is more for brand awareness, and then Instagram's more for sales. >> Yeah. >> So, like I don't get a lot of website traffic from TikTok. I used to. I don't anymore. I'm finding TikTok really difficult. >> We're finding it We're finding it a struggle. It's change It's always changing. And I think if you don't prioritize selling through TikTok, it's difficult. And do you sell much through TikTok shop? >> No. >> there? >> I am on it. In June, July, I started focusing on it for literally like a month. >> Oh, yeah, of course. You were doing all your lives. >> Yes. And then, um I noticed that a lot of people who buy from TikTok return products. And I I don't get this on my website. So, like the customer's very different on TikTok. And I was just like I just don't know if I really want to do this, to be honest. So, and with TikTok live, you have to keep discounting your products. And it's for the brand, I don't think it's a the best strategy. >> No, I agree. I agree. And it's >> the customer is a very impulse purchase. And for a product that is like a considered buy, like something that's not a £10 whatever. >> Yeah, cuz my price point is a lot higher. So, yeah, Tik Tok's a a strange one. I can't I don't think I've quite figured I feel like you think you've figured it out. >> Literally. >> And then something changes and you're like, "Oh, I I don't know." >> I have no idea. >> Literally. >> But having said that, I feel like you've had a lot of viral moments through Instagram and Tik Tok. Was there any particular moment that you can recall where you were like, "This this has changed things for me."? >> It was my first viral Tik Tok in 2021. I think it was March. It was a video of me packing an order of a customer's 16th order. This customer has now ordered from me, I think, 65 times. >> >> Yeah, and she's based in the US as well, which is crazy. So, it was these moonstone earrings that I had, which were actually discontinued now. And I I filmed myself packing this order and it just I think it got like 1.2 million views or something. And um like the orders just started coming in. I got, I think, maybe like 50 orders in 24 hours. When you're a small business, you're like, "Oh my god, this is amazing." >> Literally didn't even do that in a month. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And then that is the video video that catapulted the business's growth. And that year hit my first 100 grand in revenue, which is such an exciting time for a business, I know. >> Yeah. >> Um And yeah, it was just cuz of Tik Tok. >> Amazing. Yeah, it's been a very powerful tool for small businesses, especially those that got started COVID or pre-COVID. I feel like getting started on Tik Tok now is probably a different story, but >> it is a bit more difficult. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, but I think once you crack what kind of content works, then it is easier. But it's it's always changing now. It's so fast as well. >> Like videos that would do well like a month ago. >> do well, yeah. >> I agree. >> Yeah. >> In terms of your content and you showing up as a founder, I'd say you're very present, you're very confident. So, for anyone listening who is like, I need to show up online more, I need to show my face, do you have any tips for them to show up? >> hard cuz I don't know about you, but when I first started, I was like, this is cringe. >> Do you look back at videos of yourself and you're like, who is that? Like >> Literally. >> so unexpressive, so quiet. >> Yeah, no, cuz I I don't know why, but my 2020 videos on TikTok are like recirculating and I'm getting people liking them and commenting. >> I'm obsessed. >> And I'm like, this is so embarrassing. Like, why are these videos still going around? They're awful. It's like me pointing to the screen. >> Like literally like the ones where you're like that, yeah, I know. >> Yeah, literally. Um I It's just practice. >> Yeah. >> I don't Sometimes I wonder like, do you actually need to be showing your face as a business owner? I think it can really help and it can really grow your business. But then you see so many great brands where you don't actually know the business owner, so >> But then I think there needs to be a strategy if you're not going to be the face of your brand. And I've also noticed it's a lot of women who are the face of the brand and not a lot of men and I'm not sure why. >> I feel like in a weird way, women do have it better as being founders because I feel like and oh, I hope I don't get canceled for saying this, but I always see it circulating online about being like pretty attractive female founders and like there's this one video I reme- can remember from a woman, I can't even remember who she was though. And she's like, if you are a female founder and you are pretty, get your face out there. That is your selling point. >> It's annoying, but like it works. And it's like a really rubbish thing to say, but like there are certain privileges out there. Um so, but yeah, I think if you are nervous about getting your face on screen, I think you just have to take it in baby steps, but just do it. Practice. Just do it. Um, you don't even need to post it. Just like let it sit in your drafts. Um, And like I I think a lot of the worry comes from what people will think of you. >> I think that's the biggest thing, isn't it? It's actually Take a moment to think, why is it that I'm feeling nervous to post online? Is it because I don't know or is it because I'm maybe worried about what other people might think? And if it's that you're worried about what other people might think, then you need to scrap that attitude because you're never going to get far in life worrying about what other people think. And there's that fantastic quote where it's like, those that matter won't care and those that care don't matter. So like people nearest and dearest to you, they're just going to support you and they're going to want the best for you. And if that means liking and sharing your cringe videos online, that's what they're going to have to do. >> Well, yeah. Cringe until it works. >> Exactly. And I saw a quote as well which is the cost of success is embarrassment. >> It's true. It literally is true. It's true. I was so embarrassing at the start. I was so cringe. When those old videos recycle, I'm like, Lord, have mercy. Did I really put that online? >> But it's also like what is there to be embarrassed about? You're just someone who's just trying to follow their dreams. There's nothing embarrassing about it. You have one life. You have one shot at it. Just like just do you. Just make it the life that you want to live. >> And people find it embarrassing because I feel like they know they will never have the confidence to do it. So they're finding a way they're finding a reason to do it. Amazing. I love that. Thank you. So you talk a lot about feminism and how that's been like the North Star of the brand. Um, how has your personal identity changed as you've kind of grown the brand. This is really interesting, actually. So, I have strong feminist beliefs, but I do feel like sometimes you have to be careful what you say online. Feminism can be a bit of a minefield. You can very easily say the wrong thing, and as the brand grows, I'm not going to lie, I get more nervous about it. And it's such a shame because this is what my value is, and this is what I stand for. But then there are certain topics I'm like, I don't know if I should be talking about this. So, and I was talking to my merchandising consultant on Monday, and she was like, "Ramona, I think you need to be more outspoken again, and like really stick to your values cuz this is what's going to attract the right people." So, I think I have kind of gone a little bit more quiet on the feminism feminism side, which is such a shame. But I need to like find my voice again. Cuz when I started the business, I had a really strong feminist voice, and I would talk about lots of topics, and I think this happens as a long of as a lot of businesses grow, it's easy to really start with a mission, but as it grows, because you're like, "Actually, I need to hit certain targets." It's so easy to like dilute your brand message. Um and I've caught myself doing that a few times. I'm like, "Ramona, this is not why I started the business." So, like this year, um cuz we support a domestic violence charity called Solace. So, I actually went to go visit one of the refugees. Um yeah. So, and the whole point of that was to like remind myself why I'm doing this, and listen to the women's stories who have run away from domestic violence to understand like how I can help them. Yeah. Cuz I always say like, "Yes, jewelry's beautiful, but it's not going to change the world." So, with the business it's like donating to charities. That can That's how we help and then educate people about these kind of topics. And hopefully this year, I'm going to be donating for their Christmas party. >> Oh. >> Because one of the things the charity said is that the Christmas party is really important because the women just want to feel normal again. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and they're always struggling with donations. So we're going to be donating towards that. >> I love that. >> they were like, "Come along to the party." I'm like, "How lovely." >> Yeah. >> So um I want to I want to keep talking about feminism and I just need to kind of find my voice again cuz I'm also like I started this incredible brand. Some of these women look up to me. I don't want to be the one person who loses their voice. >> Yeah. And it is hard online, isn't it, because you're so worried about especially when you start growing a platform. >> Yeah. >> Saying the wrong thing or upsetting someone. But I think fundamentally like there is always going to be someone out there that's just going to take it in the wrong way. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's same as dating. Like they have that saying where it's like you could be the juiciest peach in the world and there is going to be someone out there who just doesn't like peaches and like >> It is Yeah. >> As long as what you're saying is coming from a place of like authenticity. >> Yeah. >> I think I think there's power in that. Like and I I I know you. You would never say something online that was like supposed to be misconstrued or like wrong or rude. And I think sometimes controversy is it's a good engagement driver if it's done in the right way if that makes sense. From a place of like you know, from like a pure place. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. It's hard. It's hard. >> It is tricky. But then I see so many incredible feminist influencers and I'm like, "Oh, I love them. They're so strong and outspoken." And I'm like, "I just I just need to find my voice again." >> will. You will. And talking about sort of um the feminism and the power of the community, when when you design the pieces that carry a message, do you kind of feel the responsibility of conveying that message. Like, how how does that affect you? >> Yeah. >> So, whenever I design something, I >> >> always think how What is What is the message behind this piece? And what will the customer feel like when they wear this piece? So, I always think of that when I'm designing something. >> Yeah. >> Um And sometimes I just have this really beautiful idea in my head of of a design, and I'm like, "Oh, but it has no message behind it. So, I don't think that's going to work." I'm like, "Okay, I'll just park that to the side." >> Yeah. >> Um But, yeah. So, every piece I design it has to have some sort of message behind it. And I think the goddess collection is so powerful at doing that. >> Yeah. >> Um And even designing for next year, I want to come up with some new stuff, but I'm always thinking about how how the wearer feel when they wear this. >> And do you feel the pressure of, I guess, like the goddess collection was so successful? Do you feel the pressure of creating more collections that are just as successful? >> Yeah. Yes. And that's a really I find it's really hard. So, like, last year I launched my Hindu goddess collection, and I've never seen something sell as well as that in my business. >> Amazing. >> It's like even now, a year over a year later, it's just constantly selling out. Um And it's incredible. But, I think a lot of business owners can relate to this. When they make something that's a best seller, it actually puts pressure on you to make something just as good. Cuz I've been launching stuff, and like, nothing has really hit that mark like that collection. >> And I'm trying to figure out what do I need to do? And I'm struggling actually to figure it out. So, >> Yeah. >> I also do feel like as well, and I saw um Do you know Alice from My Love? She did a really good post about it. She has a running back a running brand, and she did a post about um She's recently launched like comparing each of her launches. And it was really interesting because there's also so many nuances in terms of like what was actually happening in the world in 2024 when you launched it. What was going on on social media? Like we've had the tariffs come out. Like spending's gone down. And so I think sometimes it's easy to be like, oh, this hasn't performed as well. But actually it we're not comparing like apples for apples because there's, you know, things were different back then. So I think it's also like just for your like peace of mind to be like it might not be the case that things aren't performing as well. It's just that the the timing and the way the world is now those are having an impact. >> Cuz sometimes I've launched a product and it's been very slow to start. And then months later it picks up because it's like summer or something like that. Exactly. So sometimes it is tricky to understand. Um But yeah. >> Yeah, you just have to keep moving forward. >> You do. >> Yeah. >> And I think as well like a really for me like a a big guiding um like staff me for one of another word is that you might not have released the thing that you're going to be known for. Do you know what I mean? So like the Goddess collection came in 2024. You've been going since 2017. >> Yeah. >> there might be more things in the future. You just have You just haven't made it yet. >> the thing. I think you can literally be one product away from going viral and like yeah. Like it's crazy. >> It's exciting. >> And like some people get it right the first time. Like I I love talking about Odd Muse. I love Odd Muse. It was started with the viral jacket, the blazer. >> Like good product market fit, good amount of exposure. Lorna Luxe wore it. Like yeah. >> Things just aligned. I feel like when you do find that perfect product things do just align. Like dating. >> Like dating. >> >> Oh, well. Right. I'm weaving way too much dating into this. >> >> So um I guess talking about the sort of empowerment string that we've been talking about throughout. Running a business can be really tough on your psyche, on your mental health. How have you kind of dealt with the setbacks, the knock backs, the difficult times? >> god, it's it's horrible. It's really hard, especially when you're a sole founder and everything relies on you. Sometimes I'm like, I wish I had a co-founder. >> Me, too. >> It's so hard because your team relies on you. Your whole livelihood is literally on you. >> Um >> It's hard. It's Oh my god, like I feel like I'm going through that at the moment and I think it's important one to take time out. >> 100% Yeah. >> You can't just keep going if you know that you're burning out. I've done that and it doesn't work. >> Exactly. And that's the worst thing you can do. And I think as a founder, sometimes you can feel like you were saying, the whole business relies on me. I can't possibly take a day off. But actually, flip that narrative. The whole business relies on you. If you are not performing at your peak, >> Exactly. Your business isn't going to be performing either. And like yes, if you want to take a week or two off, yes, your sales might slow down. But the business is still going to be there. This is what I still struggle with. >> Yeah. And it's important actually. Do you know what my business coach always says? You need to take time away from the business because you need to know what works and what doesn't. If you are always there doing things, you're never going to know that your systems are working and your processes are doing right and your team know what they're doing. If you actually take a step out for like a week, if things are still working, great. If things fall to the floor, what's happened and how do we fix it for next time? So it's actually important to do it as well, not just for your yourself, but for the business. >> Well, yes, exactly. So now my team like, "Ramani, you need to build a team because I've been a working taking time off of the past 2 weeks and it's affected a lot of things. They're like, you need to future proof your business." And next year I'm hoping to hire more. But then when it does feel like your business is crumbling, it's a horrible, horrible place to be in. I've been in it multiple times. Everything looks great on social media. Behind the scenes, I'm like, I don't think I'm doing a good job. Or like you have really slow periods and you're like, crap. Like how am I going to pay for this thing and pay for that thing? Um But I think I think what's really helped me is having a plan, like literally writing down a plan, writing down your revenue goals, and literally thinking working like how am I going to reach that? >> Reverse engineer. >> And it could be like you've done a sale in the past that's worked really well or limited edition something they always do well. Just to get those like quick sales in. It's just about having a strategy. >> It definitely is and I think it's interesting as well because before I came into this year, I was very like, we don't want to be a discount brand. I don't want to do sales. Like I even remember Lucy Hitchcock for the longest time didn't even have a discount to sign up to her newsletter. >> Really? >> She was like so anti giving away discounts which and I totally get it. But this year obviously we've been forced to do like heavy discounts because of the rebrand. And I had a call with my business coach today and she was like, what are your thoughts on like sales now? And I was like, well, I still don't really want to like be a discount brand and she's like, the thing is is that when you are bringing people in and I think this is the way that I look at it and maybe you as well. From when we started it was so built organically. Everyone found us through social media. Everyone followed the story. Everyone kind of knew what was going on. Whereas now we're at a place where we run ads and so Ellis was like to me, someone who's seen an ad from three weeks ago is not going to know that last month you also ran a sale. Like so I think it's also like the narrative that we tell ourselves in our brain about offering discounts and sales because sometimes it's that's the low-hanging fruit. Like you've had people come in to buy something and if it's it's to take giving them 15, 20% off to buy again, that's still cheaper than going out to acquire a new customer. And so it's almost like you have to get really like detailed and numbery about it all as well. >> I think it is literally probably the only the luxury brands that don't do discounts, but they have such strong brand presence. When you're a small business it's a lot harder. >> Yeah, 100%. And so you just mentioned about a few times where you've really been through it and thought, "Wow, and like everyone on the outside isn't going to know what's happening right now." Can you take me through any of those times? >> Yeah, I mean one is this year, or like this period has been like I've had friends coming up to me like, "You're doing so well, Ramona." I'm like, "I am crying every day." >> It's so funny, isn't it, how things seem online. And there's a really fine balance I find between crying all the time online because you also don't want to be like, "Oh, woe is me." It's It's such a balance, but tell me about this year. >> What's been happening? This year has just been a hard year, I think for lots of businesses. The tariffs, um I've noticed spending patterns have completely changed with UK customers. So now we're doing ads in the US and Canada. Um it's been a weird year. It's been a weird year of the snake. Yes, I I saw this on Instagram. I saw you liking the post. >> >> Honestly, everyone I'm talking to I'm like, "It's the year of the snake. We're shedding. We're shedding. We're giving We're being given all of the challenges." >> Yeah. >> So that we can learn and grow, shed the skin, and next year we move into the year of the horse. >> Yes, I saw this as well. I'm ready for this. I'm ready for the year of the horse. Sounds good to me. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Um well, I think this year also I've hired not very well. It's my first time hiring. I don't know what I'm doing. >> Tell me about that. I feel like people would be really interested in the first hire. >> I think I rushed into it cuz I was so desperate and um I don't think I was clear enough on what I was looking for cuz I was trying to offload social media cuz my it's so time consuming for me. But that's actually my strong point. >> Yeah. >> And I should have offloaded the stuff that the admin stuff I get stuck doing every day. >> Yes. >> So now I'm looking into getting a maybe a VA, virtual assistant, um so they can just do the admin stuff and then I can have space in my brain for the creative work. >> Um cuz at the moment I have by the time I've done all the admin stuff, I have no creativity left. And then that like that's this is why I started the business. So yeah, it doesn't make sense. But I think yeah, I just haven't hired very well ooh this year. Um but I I it's it's a learning curve. Like I know what to do next year now. >> I think hiring is it's so tough because I feel like if someone is like really passionate and good >> Yeah. >> the likelihood of them wanting to then go and do their own thing is probably like very high. Do you know what I mean? Like maybe that's just my thought process on it. >> Lots of people tell me that your first hire should be entrepreneurial. >> Mhm. >> And they should really just want to use their initiative and get stuck in everything. But I'm the same like but then wouldn't they just go and start their own thing? Like why would they want to work for me? >> contract in place that they can't I've heard I've heard a lot of people be screwed over. Not necessarily in like product Product-based business is probably different because to actually start a product-based business is a lot. But I know people in service-based like creative industries like um marketing where employees have gone and set up their own like competitor agency. And you need yeah, very strong like contracts in place to say like non-compete. You can't go set up something similar. But I do agree. I think you need a first hire you definitely need someone who's got initiative. I think you it's more time for you to constantly be answering questions from someone rather than someone just go away, try and figure it out, come to you and be like, "I've tried to look for the answer, can't find it." Or So, I think it's Oh, it's yeah, it's a funny one. But, I'm such a believer of like you put it out in the universe and it'll come. >> This is the thing. Like, the team I have now are amazing. And they approached me. And um at the time I was really looking for someone in their position as well. Like, it's so weird. So, I'm kind of like I think I always I do attract the right people at the right time. >> Yes. And we will do the same with dating. >> Oh, we will. >> >> Couldn't help myself. It is It's so true. All of my All of my team I found through um like it's all happened by chance. >> Yeah. >> And I've been so lucky. Like, my entire team have just been like like self-starters, crack on with it. Like, sometimes to the point where I'm like, "Maybe you should just run that by me quickly." I love that you're taking the initiative here, but maybe just ask me as well. >> Yeah. >> Um So, I think it is like one of those like you put it out to the universe and it will land on you. Talk me through your team. Who have you got? >> It's a very small team. So, I have my fulfillment center. I have my email marketer. And I have a merchandising consultant who I just started working with. >> Amazing. >> And a content strategist who makes the creatives for ads. So, I set up the ads and then she does creatives. >> Yeah. >> But, they all have like years of experience. They're all They're all just They're just great. I love working with them. I feel like we're friends, which is so nice. >> It's nice to be able to have that sort of relationship. I feel a bit less solo foundry. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, okay, all the decisions you're making, but at least you've got people that you can be like, "Do you think this is the right choice?" Like, they know the business. Like, >> Cuz some of these Yeah, some of these people have 15 years experience. They're all contractors that work with. And they just know much more than me. So I'm like, can you just go and do this? And they're like, fine. I'm like, God, great. >> And that's the thing I think something we also need to learn as founders is that we are not going to be good at everything. >> Yes. >> I think obviously when you get started we have to do everything especially when you do it scrappy and you start with like very minimal um investment, but as you grow it's that mindset of being like I actually don't have to do this or like what I'm not good at, I actually it's more important for me to get someone else to do it. And it's like um Leila Hormozi said this as well like in like a video. And she was like, if you are charging your time out at like $100 an hour but you're spending two hours cleaning your apartment when you could pay someone $50 an hour, why are you doing that? Like you don't need to be cleaning your apartment. And I think it's like thinking about your time in that way where actually what what am I good at? What am I not good at? And like what you mentioned earlier where you were so good at the social media side of things but confused it because it was taking up so much time that you were like get rid. But actually it's like even if it's time consuming but it moves the needle and it generates you sales, we keep that. Do you know what I mean? I think we as founders we get so busy doing stuff that we probably don't need to do just because we're doing it. >> true. And I think cuz like there have been so many businesses that started around the same time as us and I feel like some have grown so fast and I know it's because I've been so much slower at hiring a team and they've been a lot faster at it. Um and it's just the way it is. >> Yeah, I feel the same and but again back to the whole everything happens for a reason. >> Yeah. >> And I had a call um this morning and I think it's also very um you also need to figure out what you want from your business as well. So like yeah, we see these businesses that started at the same time and they're turning over like tens of millions and they have these huge teams. But is that what we actually really Because like no, I don't want that. I actually love having my my 10 part-timers and you know, I like to know that we're going to do x amount of I don't know 40-50k in revenue and we've got some profit from that and have it just as a nice lifestyle business that then allows me to do other things rather than be like we need to hit 100k. We're going to do anything that we can do to get there. Let's get investors on board. And then it becomes an entirely different beast and so I think sometimes there's that comparison you know, we look like I love to compare myself at other businesses. >> I think we all do it. >> But it's like you know, their end goal might be exit and sell for x amount of money. My end goal is just have a nice lifestyle business that plods along for a while. Do you know what I mean? >> I think yeah, I've I've been asking myself the same questions. I think in my 20s I was like yeah, I want like a 100 million pound business and now that I'm in my 30s and getting towards my mid-30s I'm like I just want a happy peaceful life and a comfortable life. >> A soft life. >> I do want to hit the million pound revenue mark and I know I can do it. It's so doable. I know I can do it. >> You must be so close. >> No, not not so close. Like last year we did half a mill. So we we've but you can double revenue in a year. I've done it before. >> Cumulatively though >> Oh yeah, cumulatively yeah. I've hit a million, yeah. And I know I can do it in a year. But I don't think I want like a 30 million pound brand. It just sounds like a headache. >> does and a big team. Too much aggro. Too much aggro. Like I can't imagine my sales team. >> Yeah, and I think as you get older your goals do change. Like in a few years time I want to have kids. So I need to set up a business where I can walk away so I can look after my kids and it still runs. That's kind of my priority at the moment. >> Yeah, I think it's important to know what that end goal is because then you're at least working towards something. >> I don't know about you, but people keep asking me what's your exit strategy. I'm like >> When I got first asked that >> will take over my business. >> Literally when I first got asked that question, I was like, "What's an exit strategy?" >> I don't know. >> Literally, I I have no idea. I'm just enjoying the moment right now and I just want to just enjoy what I do every day. >> Enjoying the journey. I feel like I know the answer to this question, but what's been the hardest season of running your business? >> Oh, the hardest season. I think it's when I have personal stuff going on in my life. It's so hard to separate the two. >> Yeah. >> And it's like that with any job, not just a business, but I think when everything does rely on you, it's the pressure is just too much. >> Yeah. >> And um you can't just take time off. >> Yeah. >> Um like 2 years ago um I spoke about it a few times when a manufacturer ran off with my money. And I had to rebuild the business from I think I made a loss that year, so I had no money, no cash. And I had to literally rebuild it and at the same time my mom was diagnosed with cancer. And at the same time I started having panic attacks and I had agoraphobia and I couldn't really leave the house and it was hell. Like I can't believe I went through that. But some somehow I got through it. Um but it's when personal stuff happens that it just it really affects the business. It really does and it's really hard. >> And do you have any advice for people listening who are like going through tough times outside of business in how to kind of cope with it? >> I think your health and your mental health always comes first. >> Yeah. >> Otherwise you can't do anything. Like you can't even get out get out of bed if your mental health isn't okay. So the focus is just getting yourself better. >> Yeah. >> And that yeah, that everything happened. Yes, I managed to get the business back up to like it was just like 200,000 in revenue, not even a lot. But I was like, "I just need to get the business ticking over. >> Yeah. >> And I'm going to take this whole year to focus on myself and get better. And I did. And I was And I was like, I'm missing out on a whole year of life. And my friend was like, it's 1 year. In 2 years time, you're going to look back and be so grateful. And she was so right. >> Yeah, 100%. >> know it looks like everyone else is doing these big things around you, but one, you never know what's going on in people's lives. And secondly, you need to make sure that you are functioning because if you're not healthy, it's it's a horrible place to be. >> And what steps did you take personally to kind of get yourself from that place where you were like having panic attacks and couldn't leave the house and to where you are now where you're a confident queen. >> I mean, I get the train to London >> Did you come by train? >> I did. I still get anxious about it. >> I'm so proud of you. >> But I did it. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, the anxiety is still there, but I still do it. Um the main thing is therapy. You have to find a good therapist. I've been through six different therapists over years. >> Going to say it again, but it's like dating. >> Yeah, it is like dating. People say it's like dating. You need to find a good therapist. Um exposure therapy, that helps me. Doing the things that scare you shitless. >> Really? >> Mine was just getting on a train. I couldn't get on a train. It was horrible. Like I've been on a tube with you and I was like, "Isabelle, can you come with me?" Like I don't I still don't get the tube, but I don't like it. >> I am I'm not going to lie to you. Like unless I lived in London, they are scary. It's not It's noisy. It's uncomfortable. It's hot. It's cold. It's Yeah, like you don't know where you're going. It's confusing. I do get it. It's I completely understand. Yeah. >> And I think the main thing is just being patient with yourself whilst you're getting better. It can be very easy to like beat yourself up. You're like, "Why are you like this? Why are you doing this?" Blah blah blah, but your when your body shuts down, it's shut shutting down for a reason. It's like it's you saying to you, "You need to slow down. Something's not okay." And you have to listen to your body. >> Yeah. You can't run yourself to the ground. >> No. We don't get time off. We don't get paid sick leave. So, yeah. So important. >> Um I I'm intrigued to know what your answer to this question will be. What's the challenge you never see talked about online, but you think every founder goes through? >> Ooh. Every founder goes through. I think it's This is going to sound really like cliche, but I think it is um like the feeling that you're never doing enough, or like a lack of self-belief. >> No, but so true. I sat on a panel with Sara Davies, and she said the exact same thing. She was like, I struggle with self-belief. And she like, I think she probably doesn't anymore, but she was talking about like 30-year-old her. And it's I it's so interesting how you can look at these people like she's a dragon, and she struggles with self-belief like That's the thing. Do we ever believe in ourselves? >> Well, even like Yeah, but even like us, like we don't have these multi-million pound businesses, but we've done very well. Like we've taken the the scary steps to build a business. So, so why wouldn't we believe in ourselves? Cuz we've you've done the scary thing. >> Literally. >> But I think we've proven to ourselves we can do it. But I do think with business people and very ambitious people, you always want the next thing. And then you can be like, okay, but can I actually do that? Do I have the belief to like hit the next goal? And um I think that's that's really challenging. I think no matter how big of a business person you are, you always have those kind of doubts. >> Yeah, totally. And do you think you put glass ceilings on yourself? >> Um do I put glass ceilings on myself? Well, I like to think no, because of my feminist values, but yes, I do. And one of the reasons is is because I'm South Asian. And sometimes I feel like that's a disadvantage, which is really horrible thing to say. Because um like I always worry that if a non-South Asian goes to my Instagram page, and they see my face posted all over it, they're not going to shop for my brand. They're going to be like, oh, this is just an Indian jewelry brand. This isn't for me and they'll just exit my page. But also things like I am dark-skinned and in my culture that's seen as unattractive. Um so just things like that that I am aware of and I kind of do put glass ceilings on myself. >> Yeah. >> But then when I tell non-Asian people those kind of things they're like, what? >> Yeah. >> Like they're like, I can't believe you just said that. So I'm like >> 100%. >> It's it's kind of in my head. >> Yeah. >> But then it's just when I look at the it girl brands, I don't see any of them run by someone who looks like me that they are all run by like >> pretty white girls. >> Yeah. Literally. And I'm like sometimes like if I was fair like fair-skinned, would that be working to my advantage more? Cuz then people wouldn't know what ethnicity I am. I have those kind of thoughts and when I talk to um like even other like black-owned founders, they have the exact same experience and they're like >> Oh, look >> if I post myself on my page, I don't get much engagement. As soon as I post like a white girl, it gets a lot more engagement. It's so frustrating. >> Insane. >> It's really hard. Like even when it comes to choosing models, I have to think carefully. I don't want to always choose a South Asian because I'm South Asian, so my face is all over my feed, so I need to be really careful about choosing which models, which all brands do. We all want to be diverse. So but like that I feel like there are smaller things that I have to think about. Um otherwise I will be boxed into this South Asian-owned business, which I don't want to do and I'm so proud of being South Asian. But when you get boxed into this thing, it's so hard to get out of it, so I'm trying to be very careful about how I do things in business. >> And like you say about um not seeing any it girls that look like you. But it's like you're you're the it girl. So And like that's what you are though and like if you think about all the the other like South Asian girls who are starting businesses, they'll all look up to you and be like, "She's like she's the poster girl for us." >> hope so. >> Definitely. >> I really hope so. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Yeah. And along that narrative, have you ever experienced like discrimination online from anyone? >> You know what? I haven't. >> That's amazing. >> Luckily, I have not. It's just been in real life with like, I don't know, like old friends or like what's whatever. But then you just don't surround yourself with those people. But no, I mean, have you as a woman, have you experienced anything? >> I've been so lucky. >> Same. >> Genuinely, but I also genuinely think it comes from a place that you and I are just like nice pure people. Do you know what I mean? Like I I've never I I I would hate to think that I come across online as like not a nice person. And I it's like, you know, for both of us, what you see is what you get. Like we're exactly the same online as we are in real life. And so >> No, the only trolling I've ever got is about my weight online. >> Oh. >> But like only once or twice. And like >> Really? >> Yeah, back in the day when I was a bit I was a bit heavier. I was a bit chunkier. >> No, that's disgusting. >> Yeah, I remember it was like a comment by this guy on it was literally my home renovation page with my dad. And I was like, "I've been away on holiday, dad's been doing the barn." And this guy commented on it being like, "Um could have gone to the gym while you're on holiday." Or something like that. >> me guess, he had no profile picture. >> Honestly, or just like some like old, bald, middle-aged man. Like, you know when you're just like, "Okay." But other than that, like nothing. And like I don't I've got thick skin, it doesn't get to me. But um I I was on TikTok live once and there's one guy who did come on and was like, "You look like Rishi Sunak's sister." >> >> You're just saying that cuz I'm brown. I was like, "Are you kidding me?" It was a funny comment though, so I was like let it slide. >> Is he trying to be like insulting or giving you a compliment? I'll take it as a compliment, thank you very much. >> >> Yeah. >> >> Um Okay, is there anything that you've done in business that you were embarrassed to admit at the time, but looking back you're like, actually every founder goes through that? >> Ooh, that was embarrassing at the time. I don't I don't think so. Cuz like I said, the cost of success is embarrassment. I think the most embarrassing thing is looking back at the content I used to post. Like it's awful. >> >> We all start somewhere though. We all start somewhere. That's the kind of content that was in at the time. >> Exactly. Yeah, it was trending, guys. >> Exactly, but I don't I don't think I've done anything. I don't hope I haven't done anything very embarrassing. Have you? >> Probably. >> Oh. >> Well, I don't know. Not off the top of my head. It's a good question. I'm sure Paige will have some embarrassing moments of me walking through St. Albans with my dressing gown. >> Oh, that was really good. That was such a good video. >> Good video, yeah. It was quite embarrassing. >> well on TikTok. >> It has done well. So, yeah. There you go. Embarrassing gets you views. >> Oh, yeah, there you go. >> Yeah, I don't know. Probably, but I've just forgotten about it by now. >> Maybe we just like try and block it out of our memories. >> Under the rug, that one. It's under the rug. >> I would love to talk to you more about the manufacturer, if you don't mind. I feel like a lot of people here will be sourcing online and through Alibaba and working with Chinese and, you know, Far East companies. Um what can you kind of tell us a bit more about what happened? >> As in the incident that happened. Oh. Um So, it was a manufacturer from India. >> Mhm. >> My mom warned me about India. So, I'm Indian, so I feel like I can say this. >> Yeah, absolutely. You have the right. >> She always She warned me. >> Yeah, she's like, make sure She's like, don't work with India. They will screw you over. They were actually the third manufacturer to screw me over, but the other ones were like very small amounts of money. like, "Ah, whatever." Yeah. This was a This was like 30 grand. It's It's all I had at the moment at the time. Um They promised me the world. Um They actually they flew to the UK. They messaged me being like, um "Are you looking for a manufacturer?" >> I feel like I remember you posting this online like meeting up with them in a nice London hotel and yeah. >> Yeah, we met in London. Um and I was desperate for a manufacturer at the time because my recent manufacturer, also from India, screwed me over. And I had no manufacturer. So, I was like, "Crap, I need one." They messaged me. I met them in face-to-face. They showed me physical samples which looked like Monica Vinader quality. And they were like, "Yeah, we can do this. We can do that." When I received the jewelry, I was like, "What is this?" And I thought they had their own factory. They actually found a little random factory in India and just got some random craftsmen making my stuff. And yeah, it was just They It was just so bad. And we signed contracts. So, the contract said if anything is faulty, they I get to send it back off charge and they have to replace it. And this jewelry was like broken in half and they're like, "It looks fine." And I was like, "Do you need glasses? Like, this is ridiculous." And um they were like, "We're not We're not taking it back." And I just lost a lot of money. Like, the whole thing was just the way they were scamming was just in some ways it was quite sophisticated. I brought my mom along because she speaks Hindi >> Yeah. >> to build that rapport with them. You that you can't build rapport with people like this. Like, they were just going around scamming people uh female-owned businesses in in the UK cuz there were two others they contacted. And their whole ethos was we empower women and it's such a joke. They've stolen my designs. They're selling them in India. >> Oh my goodness. >> And I flagged it up with them and they sent me a threatening message on WhatsApp. It was so unprofessional. And I was like, this is just not worth my time. >> No. And there's walk in Is there anything you can do? Like, I know like the law out there is >> I tried getting lawyers involved, um and we also got the police involved. But the thing with in India is that a lot of people pay off the police, and the police just be quiet, which is what happened. >> Right. >> Cuz this manufacturer has scammed so many people that they have so much money from these people they paid off the police to be quiet. >> They were flying first class to the UK on literally scammers' money. >> Oh. >> It was wild. >> Karma will get them. Karma will get them. >> thing. I'm like, I literally like I'll just leave it to karma. I just want to move on. So, don't work with India. >> >> And so, what advice would you have for people who are sourcing? Do you have a bit more of like a strict protocol now when it comes to finding new suppliers? >> So, for jewelry, I think there are different places to manufacture for different products. Jewelry Uh Thailand is one of the best places for jewelry. So, Pandora, Monica Vinader, they all get their stuff made in Thailand. >> Wow. >> Um and the quality there's just so good. My Thailand manufacturer is amazing. Um China's very good. >> Mhm. >> One thing I realized with China or my Chinese manufacturer is that they're not good at different textures. Right. They're quite limited to what they can do. The quality is amazing. People think if you make stuff in China, it's bad quality cuz it's cheap. But it's actually they have the latest equipment and the latest tech. So, they they're always ahead of everyone. So, their quality is so good. >> So, like everything is made in China. Even your designer bags, they're made in China. They're shipped to Italy, and they are finished in Italy. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. And yes, the products in China might be cheaper, but it doesn't mean it's bad quality. It's actually the best quality. >> >> Um so, I would look at those two places. China, I would start looking on Alibaba. And I did a TikTok video about how to look for manufacturers on Alibaba. Um, you want to look for manufacturers who have worked for at least 3 years minimum. You want to make sure that they are have the verified supplier or the trade assurance. Always ask for a sample. And try when you're just starting look for a manufacturer who has a very low MOQ, minimum order quantity, cuz you don't want to tie up your cash in lots of stock. Yeah, as we know. Yeah, like even now when I launch stuff I always order the minimum amount cuz you just don't know something's going to go well. Um, so I will say those two places are really good places to look at. I know lots of people who have jewelry businesses looking um I think Turkey. >> Okay. >> They have good crystals there. Some people go in Sri Lanka. India is good for some like it is good for some things but I'm staying away from India. I'm staying away from India. We're jaded from that experience. Um, yeah, I'll say Thailand and China. >> Interesting. I love that. I think another good tip as well is to like talk to them online on through like Alibaba messenger. >> Yeah. >> How good is their English? How good are they to respond? >> How easy is it for them to do customization? And I think one other thing is when you look on their product catalog >> Yeah. >> say you're looking for a wooden hairbrush, if all they're selling is hair accessories, hairbrushes or all they're selling is wooden goods then that's like a factory. But if they're selling kitchen appliances and hairbrushes and clips and tops, then they're probably a third-party who has many different factories that they work with. You want to go straight to the factory, not the middleman because you just pay more money. >> Yeah. >> Um, okay. Moving on to more about growth money and scaling. I feel we've touched on a lot of this as well, but oh, which question do I want to ask you? What surprised you most about scaling a product-based business? >> Um, that it's hard. >> Yeah. >> I think it it comes across so easy. Like, you need to hire, you need to do this. Like, on paper it's very easy. Doing it is so hard. >> Yeah. >> And letting go of control. >> That's the >> hardest. I don't know if >> That is it. >> It's such a standard answer, but oh my god, it's so hard. >> I even I struggle with it. Like, I was saying to um Paige, my assistant, I was like, "You know, I could let you and Izzy go and do these things, but like I want to be there." And it's like I don't need to be there. I literally don't need to be there. Like, they can go, they can film content, they can do all these things without me. I still want to be there. Like, not because I don't trust what they're doing in the slightest. I just want to be there. >> Yeah. That's exactly it. >> to be in the content. It's my business. >> >> Well, yeah, exactly. I think that's probably the thing I struggle with the most, which is also why I haven't grown as fast as other businesses, cuz I haven't been so willing to let go of that control. So, I think next year it's going to be more about making risks and stepping outside my comfort zone. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. >> What's going to be the first thing to do that? >> I'm going to look for a VA. >> Yeah. >> Nice. >> Yeah. But I'm going to maybe hire a different like a few VAs. One that can focus on Shopify stuff and one that can focus on admin stuff. Rather than finding one that does everything, cuz that's quite hard to find. >> Yeah. >> So, um, I think that's what I'm going to do. >> It's exciting. Two new employees. >> Yeah. Two new employees. >> And you can't say employees for this answer, because I feel like that's what you're going to say. But looking back, what do you wish you'd invested in earlier other than a team? >> Oh, yeah, I was going to say team. Um, merchandising consultant. >> And can you tell me more about what they do? >> So, she helps me with stock management, stock forecasting. >> So important. >> So important. Um, cuz I actually worked with one last year. And she I had lots of products that were out of stock. And she was like, "You have lost this year on a hundred thousand because you've been out of stock with these products." I had no idea. >> Ah. >> And it was really bad, yes. So >> And is that a case of like you knew you were out of stock and you just didn't order it quick enough >> order it quick enough cuz I had no system in place. >> Every founder I talk to has the same problem. I wonder if there's a business venture in here where like we can I don't know. What is that? Cuz I'm the same. I can't order stuff quick enough. >> No. >> I just don't do it. I know it needs to happen. >> Shopify which tell you how many weeks left you have of a product. >> Yeah. >> Um so there are ways around it, but this is what the merchandise consultant helps me with. >> Fine. >> She also has created a profit and loss. >> So important. >> For budgeting. She said every month you need to look at this or even every week. >> Yeah. >> Um we've done a forecast for next year. So I know what my monthly revenue targets are. >> Yeah. >> Um which is like a really basic thing to do, but I actually you know what? I didn't do it this year. >> Yeah. >> And I know that's one of the reasons I've struggled because I haven't been in a mental space to like do it, yeah. But I did it last year and I saw so much growth in the business. >> Yeah. >> Um >> And I feel like even from a psychological perspective, it's like when you know you've set yourself a target of X amount this month you just even if you're not consciously aware of it, subconsciously you're working towards it. >> Exactly. But it's not even setting the targets, literally writing down all the tasks that are going to make you achieve that target. That's what's going to help. >> Yeah. >> Um it helps with like the overwhelm. Um So yeah, that's what the merchandise consultant helps me with. And we also just bounce ideas off each other. >> Which is nice. >> Yeah, and it helps with a bit of strategy as well. Like this is what you need to work on, you need to hire. >> Yeah. >> And it's just when you're doing it yourself, you need someone to like bounce stuff off. >> Yeah, and someone just like sense check things with like, does this make sense or you know, does this look right to you? And someone who just also has a bit more understanding, do you know what I mean? >> Exactly. Cuz we don't know what we're doing. We're just winging it. >> We're winging it. We know what we've learned, but we don't know what what's to come. >> So, hiring people who know more than you >> Exactly. It's a strength. It's a superpower. So, in terms of who you are now versus who you are when you started the business in 2017, how different are you as a person, would you say? >> I'm a lot more resilient. You have to be in business. You have to have a thick skin. And there are so many times in business where you feel like you're going to lose it. Like you're going to lose your business. Either you run out of cash or manufacturers screw you over. And you have to bounce back cuz yeah, this is your job and you don't have an option. And it's so hard. So, I think I'm definitely more resilient and I think I'm a bit more firm. >> Yes. >> Cuz I think everyone starts business being like just thinks like I want to price my stuff affordably so everyone can afford it. You can't do that cuz you're running a business. You need to make an earning from this. And yes, like of course you can be nice in business. I'm not saying you have to be horrible. But you do have to be firm because one thing I realized is that a lot of people will screw you over, whether it's agencies, manufacturers, they will. So, you have to be very firm. >> Yeah, and I think it's almost like in terms of I remember you talking about your employee that you hired and you're like, "Oh, I just don't I feel bad letting her go." And it's almost like it's a horrible feeling, but then when we talked about it in the group on the board room and they flipped the narrative and they were like, "But you're also doing her a disservice by letting her stay in a role that's clearly not right for her." And I think it's like also like sometimes there's power in making the hard decisions and doing doing the hard things and being firm because the flip side of it is just it's not benefiting anyone. >> Well, yeah, exactly. >> I yeah, I do agree with you on that. What's something that you're proud of that you don't talk about enough? >> Oh, that's a nice question. >> I'm always proud of you, but what are you proud of? >> you. I'm proud of you, too. In terms of the business? >> I think this could be just like life life business. >> I'm really proud that I got through my panic attacks. >> Yeah, I am as well. >> It was I can't even tell you how bad it was. It was such a dark place. I didn't think I was going to get out of it. Like I like I was depressed. It was horrible. >> Yeah. >> Um and I'm look It was 2 years ago. It's not even that long ago. >> And look at you now. >> I know. Yeah, I'm I'm so proud that I worked so hard at it. It was It's just It sounds so silly, but like I had a I bought a calendar and on the calendar I wrote every day which train I'd be getting to do my exposure therapy. But like I'll be getting like the 10:09 train to like East Croydon and like Redhill and I'll do that every day and it just sounded so like silly at the time. But I I had to do it every day to to work through it and I'm just Oh, it was hell, but I'm just so glad that I worked through it. >> And that you've proven to yourself that like you can do the hard things. Like literally anything that comes up in your way now, you're just like if I can do that 2 years ago, can do anything. >> Exactly. Like I definitely feel stronger because of it. Um and yeah, I just remind myself like if I got through that, I can I can literally do anything. Like I have my own back. >> Yeah. >> Like you can only get yourself out of it. So >> Yeah, it's so true. Yeah. >> Yeah, like I don't get me wrong. Like still I still have panic attacks. Like I still can feel them coming, but I'm a lot better at at like managing them. I understand myself more now. >> Yeah. >> And it's like think that's what they say as well in building a business is it's like more of a journey about self-discovery. >> Yeah, it is. >> is about anything else. Like, yeah, okay, I'm selling jewelry or I'm selling skin care, but actually I'm just learning about me. >> It's so true. >> It's mad. Like the tests that you go through as a founder, you would never experience this in any other realm of work. >> And I don't know about you, but I feel like I've learned more uh owning a business than I did at school. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean we all kind of do cuz school's kind of just like very, you know, but like it's like I've learned 18 years of school stuff in literally 5 years. Like it's just crazy. >> It is. And I really like how now the narrative is changing on education. And obviously, yeah, okay, stay in school until you're like 16 18. >> Yeah. >> But going to university, I was just like, "What a waste." Like obviously it wasn't a waste. I had the best time and the best time. But like and I got a good degree out of it. >> I made good friends. >> yeah, exactly. Made friends for life. But like I just love seeing kids finish school at 18 and just go be entrepreneurs and go follow a dream. Like at 18 I was like, "I don't even know what I don't know what I'm doing with my life." I mean I still don't really know now, but I just think that's one beauty of social media and founder-led brands that we can be that inspiration to like younger people who are like at uni or at school and just to be like, "Actually, there's more to life than working going to do a 9-5." That's what I was taught. Go to school, go to uni, get a 9-5. There was no >> talk of, "Oh, you could start a business. You could move to another country. You could be a freelancer. You could be self-employed." It was literally >> education education system is built for. It is built for the rat race because they don't want you to think outside the box. >> No, exactly. Yeah, they want you plugged in. They want you. They want you plugged in. What is the future of Ronnie and Co? >> Oh, I don't know. I always kind of struggle with this question. I don't know why. I don't think I can't think like long term, like 5 years. I feel like I take it a year at a time because every year is like something always big happens every year. Like this year has been a weird year, like tariffs and so there's some things you can't predict. But what I'd really like is the business. I want to have a team, a growing team, so I can just take more time out and walk away. >> Amazing. >> I really want to talk more about the feminist side of it. I want to do more educational pieces and I want to do more charity work for this. Yeah, and I want to do more like just like cool marketing like around feminism. I don't I don't know what the ideas are, but I'd really like to do that. Um >> I feel like there could be some really cool concepts you can come up with. 100%. >> And I do want to hit that million pound mark. So I I know I can do it. I can It's right there. I know I can do it. But I just I just need to do it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Year of the horse. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. >> >> Um exactly. It couldn't come sooner. What is one pearl of wisdom that you would want every founder listening to take away? >> Oh. One pearl of wisdom. Oh god, there's just so many. >> Just one. You can do a couple if you want. >> One pearl of wisdom. I think for anyone starting, you are never going to be ready. And I know it's like we hear this all the time. Just just just launch the business. It's never going to be 100% ready. Um so so just just launch it. >> Yeah. >> Um but also I think we talk a lot about business owners that they need to be delusional, which they do. But you also need to be seeing sales. You can't just go and just be delusional. Like you need to be seeing some sort of progress, whether it's social media followers or sales or something. Otherwise, you do just stay delusional. Um Cuz I think it was Mark Cuban who said this. He said you know you have a business when people buy your product. It's literally as simple as that. So Yeah, that's what I would say. Also, another one would be constantly adapt to customers' needs, the the changing world, social media, everything. Like don't just stay in one place cuz then you're not going to grow. >> I love that all. And then finally, a couple of wrap-up questions that I want to ask you that kind of like quick fire. They shouldn't be too long. What's the your What's your favorite piece of jewelry you've designed? >> Oh, God, that's really There's so many. >> Just one, please. >> I would say I think the one I'm wearing now, Goddess Aphrodite. She was the first goddess I designed. And this was like I think 4 years ago. Um she is the goddess of love, including self-love. And when she walks into the room, she literally just lights up the room. And she's one of the most powerful Greek goddesses. So I really love this piece. It's like a very special piece for me. And we always get influencers choosing this necklace when we gift them. >> So powerful. >> Oh, there's so many though. >> No, just one. Just one. Just one. Just the one. Um what's a founder trait you wish you had more of? >> Sometimes I wish I was more ballsy. >> Um I feel like I would say the same as well. Yeah. >> Yeah, cuz we've both been ballsy in so many ways, but I haven't been ballsy when it comes to hiring. And just taking bigger risks. Like exactly. You know, like again, I love to talk about Odd Muse. She did a pop-up very quickly. Then she did the London Fashion Show like literally like that. And I'm just like for me, it's too overwhelming. It would be too much anxiety for me. >> Yes. >> But, um yeah, I kind of wish I was a bit more ballsy. >> Yeah. I feel like it's to run a successful business, you have to be risk-taking. And you I feel like it's in the same vein, I can be quite slow to make decisions. And I feel like if I was just a bit quicker to make decisions, to do things, things would move in a different way. But, everything for a reason, guys. Everything for a reason. >> I think when you make these big uh scary decisions, they require sometimes a lot of cash. >> Mhm. True. >> And as I'm getting older, I'm like, I want to move out. I want a mortgage. And it actually becomes harder being more risky with your money. So, like when you're doing this business, just go all in, especially if you have like no kids, no mortgage, or anything, go all in. Cuz you don't want to regret it when you're older. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And what's ti- one Mhm. What's a tiny habit that's changed your life recently? >> Oh. >> Mhm. >> I >> >> I think cuz at the moment I'm kind of feel like I'm in the trenches, cuz I'm going through a breakup and like trying to get through Black Friday. One thing that has helped me so much in the past 2 weeks is opening up to my friends. >> I love that. >> I have got has been unreal. Every day I have either been on a phone to a friend or met up with a friend. And they have got me through so much. Cuz I'm very much like, I'm a hero, I can do everything myself, I don't need help. It doesn't work. Being vulnerable has been such a godsend in the past year. I feel like I've grown so much just in these past >> shared is a problem halved. >> Exactly. And I couldn't have got it got through it without them. >> Aw, I'm glad. I'm glad. And one final one, what's a dream collaboration? >> Oh. I would love to do a collection with Ashley James. >> Oh. >> she's on I I it's This Morning, cuz she always talks about feminist topics and she just bought a feminist book out. >> think she's so cool. >> I love >> So cool and outspoken. That would be the dream. I've been talking to her stylist and she hasn't got back to me yet. >> It's going to happen. >> interested but then she didn't get back to me and >> It's going to happen 2026. >> so. I love her. >> Amazing. That wraps it all up. Thank you so much for being on today. >> Thank you so much Isabel. It's been so much fun. >> Yeah, we had a great chat.