Hello and welcome to the Texas Tribune Tripcast for April 21st, 2026. My name is Matthew Watkins, editor-inchief of the Texas Tribune and uh my co-host Eleanor is on assignment taking a nap. I'm not entirely sure. >> Probably some hotel room. >> Yeah, just lounging. Um no, she's on assignment in North Texas and she'll be back next week. So this week I am joined by our politics reporter Alejandra Serrano. Hello Alejandro. >> Hey. Hey. Hey. >> And I'm joined by Houston Chronicle City Hall reporter Abby Church. Hi Abby. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you so much for having me. Happy to see you guys. >> Yeah, great to have you. Uh today we're talking about the latest iteration of Greg Abbott versus Texas Cities. Um you know a common fight in Texas. Uh and this time the fight is over uh police department's cooperation with ICE. Uh last week, Abbott threatened to hold $200 million in state funds for Austin, Dallas, and Houston uh back from those cities over his allegations that were breaking state law by not cooperating with ICE. The cities are having varied responses. It seems like maybe today, Abby, we will hear from Houston about whether it's going to change its policies, but we're going to sort of just break this down a little bit and and and talk about what's happening. Abby, I want to start with you. Could you just like explain for us what what the policy is right now in Houston in terms of working with ICE and how if at all has that sort of shifted over the last you know few weeks. >> All right. So about it was a couple weeks ago now but um the Whitmire administration Mayor John Whitmire he's our mayor. He um used to be a senator for the last like 50 years, but um he introduced this policy that would require I um goodness, sorry, my brain. Um it would require Houston police officers to wait on scene for 30 minutes for immigration officials to come to the scene um when there's an administrative hit through the NCIC system when um cops are pulling someone over. And that policy was quickly undone by a proposal that was brought forward by a trio of council members under Proposition A. Um, as you two probably know, Houston has a strong mayor system, but um, voters passed a charter amendment in 2023 that allows um, council members a little bit more power in putting policy on the agenda and getting that passed. So effectively what that policy did when the council members passed it was eliminate that 30inut requirement and basically reinstated all of the fourth amendment requirements by like federal law essentially. >> Okay. And and this decision by Whitmire to impose this policy, this 30-minute policy, what what did he say about that at the time? >> Uh you know he oh goodness I can't remember off the top of my head. Um I was not the one at that presser. It was my colleague Matt Degrude. But I mean they had basically introduced that policy at a time after um the Houston Chronicle had reported that two people were um handed over to ICE officials um by police officers which is obviously a shock to everybody and um I mean the way that they approached it, it was basically something that needed to happen >> is what they said at the time. >> Gotcha. And the the push back I assume is, you know, there is a lot of, you know, Texas's big cities lean a little bit more blue than the rest of the state. There's a lot of concern among voters. Uh people, you know, in the Democratic party on the left side of the political spectrum about, you know, what ICE is doing out there. This was essentially like a push back by by those members from, you know, feeling as though, you know, a city like Houston should not be participating. Do I have that right? >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think some of it is that I mean naturally you have that with the blue cities versus the red state leadership but I like I think what a lot of this comes down to too I mean a lot of it's really confusing right because you have other cities across the state other large cities that have passed similar policies but just did it in a slightly different way than Houston did. So um when you're looking at Austin and Dallas what they did was not necessarily take this this to the public and have the council members vote on it in public. they did general orders through their police department. So, it was a little bit more under the radar. So, um the way that Houston handled this was a little bit more public, a little bit more out there. And I think that is what caused a little bit more attention on Houston and why the hammer fell on Houston a little bit sooner than it did um other cities that had passed policies that were that went a little bit further than Houston's. >> Alejandro, uh Governor Abbott, uh argues that this violates SB4. um the the 2017 version of SB4. Tell us a little bit about that law. >> Two very controversial immigration related SB4s. Yeah, I mean this SB4 is called the sanctuary city ban. And it's interesting that we're at this point now when you consider the federal politics as well because Senator Charles Perry had tried to pass this ban going back to 2011 and it had repeatedly failed and he pretty much didn't want local whether it's a city council or police department or campus police department to tell officers, hey don't work with ICE. Um, and it was kind of like an astute observation on on the senator because it obviously became a big um tool for loces around the country when President Trump was first elected and it kind of was local governments kind of became the source of the resistance quote unquote. Well, in 2017, this law passes and it says that locals can't um limit cooperation with ICE and it's kind of it goes through a legal battle and ultimately the the understanding is that you can't tell officers, hey, you're not allowed to ask people about immigration status, which is kind of like the bare minimum. You know, you also they can't um li you know, they can't add bureaucracy. They can't um limit the the actual cooperation with ICE, you know, whether it's detainers or what have you. Um and it kind of goes untested. And there was this big um legal challenge as I mentioned it's resolved eventually and then there's never really any hoopla until now and it was kind of like one of the big questions. I remember when the president was first elected we did a story um the immigration reporter and I about kind of like well how are local governments going to respond and no one really wanted to draw the wrath of either Austin or the White House but here we are now. >> Right. Yeah. Uh I I want to talk about that sort of political dynamic here in a little bit, but let's talk a little bit about just the impact of pulling these funds first. Uh Abbott has made the threat against Houston. I believe it's around $110 million in grants. >> $14 million actually. They undersold it a little bit. Yeah. >> Thank you. Thank you. Um Austin, a much smaller amount. I think around like 2.5 million. Dallas, $32 million in grants plus public safety funding for the World Cup, which is of course happening in the DFW area soon. uh that amount it's 55 million for the World Cup funding. Um what is this money supposed to do and how does Abbott have the ability to to pull it back or does he? Yeah. And I I think Abby, you might also understand like the weeds a little more, but in particular with Houston, the governor's office has a sub office called the public safety office, and they administer a bunch of grants to governments up and down um the state. And they fund all sorts of things for for local police departments. And in this case, um Mayor Whitmer is saying it's going to affect FIFA planning and safety. Um but Abby, I don't know if you know a little more details. >> Yeah. Yeah, I do. So, basically, um we're kind of in the same situation as Dallas with that FIFA money, but um the city was awarded around $65 million to cover FIFA security. And um basically what that's going toward in Houston, we have a really big problem with overtime over at the police department and the fire department and solid waste. But um when you're looking about at World Cup and how that's going to impact the police department when you already have a problem with overtime, this $65 million in particular was going to be very instrumental to helping the city not further itself into the budget hole that it's already kind of found itself in. But yeah, I mean like officials over here are kind of being put in an impossible situation if I'm being honest. like you have people being asked like, "Okay, are you going to stick with this policy or are we going to risk losing $114 million when the city doesn't have that financial wherewithal to even replace it if they did lose it?" You know, so there's so many things that are going to go unfunded. And that includes things like uh protection for people who are um victims of domestic violence. that includes things for um like street gang um grants. They have a couple of different things, but it's a lot of things that are like really out in the committee community that are going to affect people who are also victims of crime. >> So, what is Whitmer saying now? What uh how did he respond to this threat? So, basically, it's been a little bit of a back and forth, but as soon as this threat came out, he uh talked to a couple of reporters and he was of the opinion that the policy needed to be corrected. Um, he turned it back on the council members who put forward the proposal and he basically said that he had warned them of the ramifications that the state could get involved. Um, and since then it has just been a back and forth of, okay, what exactly are we going to do? But all of this has been a little confounding to some people because um Whitmire initially voted to support the proposal, right? Because he said that it made a statement that they were listening to the community and following through on their concerns. >> I'll just note here, Abby, you don't have to comment on this if you don't want to, but of course you mentioned said to a couple reporters worth noting that uh Mayor Whitmer refusing to talk to the biggest newspaper in the city. Um a disappointing uh decision by the the mayor there. Yeah. And it's been uh some time, right, Abby? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, his office has not talked to us since August 2025, but um I know he'll answer questions sometimes just on the fly, like if they're um how am I going to say this? He'll sometimes answer questions on the fly from the Chronicle if it's kind of just like on the spot. And that was basically the situation that um one of our reporters was in when he was able to um get that quote from the mayor about how the only legal opinion that mattered was the governors. I know that uh quote in and of itself drove a lot of the news last week, but um yeah, one of our reporters just happened to be in the right place at the right time and they were doing a press conference ahead of FIFA. I know we're going to be hosting around seven World Cup games, but um it was about human trafficking and of course he got the opportunity to ask a couple of questions and we were able to get that. But >> yeah, that's that's the situation. But yeah, no, it's definitely been hard covering the administration without having um having the administration be able to comment on things since August. It's been awesome. >> Also, real quick, I mean, it's a testament to to Aby's reporting, her colleagues. I mean, a proud Houston Chronicle alum, but especially like the police coverage. This this issue has been bubbling for months and months before it reached this point and just slow trickle revelations of how HPD was cooperating even as the Whitmer insisted the department wasn't. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you mentioned the the sort of awkward political position that these mayors find themselves. >> That's one word for it. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's not lost on me. I've always found it fascinating that these three cities, three of the four five biggest cities in the state, they all have like a little bit something in common, which is they all have former legislators um representing them. Uh and also like kind of were lifted to power despite being Democrats by like, you know, at least with in addition to other support, the support from more people representing the political right. I know like you talked about Whitmer Meer. Uh Eric Johnson has since become a Republican since being elected to to mayor of uh Dallas. Kirk Watson in Austin uh was a member of the Senate. He has I think taken great steps to not get into a big like fight with the state government which obviously has a lot of work to do. Talk about just like the sort of like it's interesting to me how this has sort of played out where despite all of that they're really kind of feeling the heat right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because in Dallas, at least my read, you know, follow following the news. We don't report on this, you know, day in day out. Um, the police department's been really vocal and like the union too has kind of supported the measures in in believing that it's legal. And in Austin, the mayor in a low-key way um disagreed with the governor. He was like, "We we believe this is in compliance with Senate Bill 4 and federal law, and we think it's just offering some clarity." um which you know according to some some legal experts um they they agree the way they read these ordinances they're kind of like very um in the weeds about like what you can do and can do and obviously the the response in Houston um you know another member of the Texas Senate um between John Whitmire and Kirk Watson had a very different response. So, I think it just speaks to how there is no no, I guess, playbook for this um for Democrats and even also like obviously I think Republicans are also struggling with this a bit like how do you talk about immigration right now? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I feel like these mayors, these city councils have to sort of make a decision about maybe they do think they're in the right here, but how much do they want to risk that right going to court? Um, obviously, you know, it's a uh all Republican- elected Supreme Court that is u might be inclined to see things more the Greg Abbott way than the than than the city's way. Um, it would be a very big risk financially to sort of say we're going to fight this. We're going to keep doing these policies that you have you have targeted, >> right? I mean, I was trying to think of like comparable situations. Eb Ebby, you might know covering the city, but I mean, maybe like Harvey funds like I don't know the last time like cities were like we disagree here and we're going to, you know, enter a years's long drawn out battle um with the state. >> Well, I don't I don't have a good example of the years long drawn out battle. I know obviously everything with the GLLO and Harvey funding, I know that was obviously that is still ongoing basically. I mean, we're never going to hear the end of that one, but um the most recent thing that I can think of was um I believe it was in October, but um the state cracked down pretty heavily on Houston after um we've had this rainbow crosswalk. It was painted after um there was a kid, a young man who died at the intersection there over by um Eltempo and Montro. But um he um they painted that crosswalk in honor of him and it has been painted over and repainted like a whole bunch of different times just due to road construction. You know, Houston roads very awful. You got to refill everything. But um >> yeah, so they repainted it and the governor took notice and he put out this thing that said if anyone has political ideologies on their street, we're going to take away texttop funding. Right? So this is something that Houston has faced like just in the recent past, you know what I mean? So and that was something where Houston also didn't choose to fight back and they also chose to just pave over that crosswalk, you know? So to this day, there's no more rainbow in that intersection. >> Yeah. Yeah. Then you look at Austin Watson, like I said, seems very interested in not getting into a big fight. It's a much smaller amount of money. But you look at his quote after this happened. You know, he says talks about the great progress Austin has made in public safety in recent years. He says, "There's great irony that the state would try to punish the city for providing services that keep Austinites safe by threatening grants that keep Austin safe." Um, I mean, you know, that seemed that read to me like a little bit of like the most subtle dig possible to say like, weren't you all talking about a few years ago, you know, defunding the police and how that was the worst possible thing that you could do in these cities? >> No. And I think politically it kind of this this must be a win for Democrats in Austin that they're for once not the punching bag like that Houston is kind of like I know Houston's also often a punching bag but this could have gone a very different way um being that Austin kind of like in the crosshairs of of state leaders often. >> Abby, how is this playing out politically on the ground in Houston? Like what about the pressure from the other side? Is is is Whitmire feeling that? You know, I think it's like kind of hard to tell, but he recently said in an interview that like his opinion is that this is all about politics, right? Like, and if you really sit back and look at it, I mean, I do think there's some merit to what he's saying. You have Abbott running a re-election campaign. You have John Cornin running a re-election campaign against Ken Paxton, and that race is obviously like very close and everything. So, I mean, you have all of these people on the Republican side basically diving in trying to like make a difference here and say like, "Oh, this is wrong. This is right." You know? So, I definitely think that plays into it. But, I mean, I think only time will tell. Like, I mean, they're going to be voting on this tomorrow to see um like how exactly this is going to go. I think one thing that is really important here is that the administration is now looking at simply amending that proposal. So, um, they're currently working on ironing out that language. We don't really know what that is going to say yet, but we're running right down to the wire here. So, yeah, we'll know a little bit more tomorrow. So, stay tuned. >> Yeah, it's 11 I see the clock's 11:50 a.m. as we recorded this, and that that language still has not uh circulated or been posted officially. >> Is is there a is there a deadline that they these cities need to figure this out by? Uh, >> so Houston has until tomorrow to figure it out or they have to pay back that $114 million. >> Okay. Okay. Very good. >> They originally had until Monday, but they uh governor's office extended it to Wednesday. >> Excellent. Um, so I uh where does this go from here, do you think, Alejandro? I mean, you we we mentioned that Houston situation. And I think Abbott kind of went after the other two cities a little bit later. Are they they have a little bit more time to figure it out? Are they signaling that they're going to do any changes here? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting reading the tea less from from the attorney general and the governor because it seems like they're not letting up on on immigration and they're running statewide campaigns and it's kind of become this radioactive issue. >> Um, but I don't see them backing down now. I think I think either cities are going to reverse course or there are going to be maybe like tinier battles. I don't know if it's going to end up being like a massive battle because I think also part of what's being lost in the conversations like like the actions these cities have taken are kind of like lesser than what was happening you know during Trump won where where cities were doing much more drastic things in the name of like protecting um their undocumented residents. So, I think that it's going to be a mix of some cities reversing course and some maybe entering these tiny battles and trying to find a compromise. Um, similar to like last year, there was this incident. I don't know if um people remember kind of flew under the radar really early in the Trump administration. The attorney general accused Dallas of um similarly violating this SB4 and then put in a bunch of records requests as his office does and started investigating and then there was kind of like a quiet resolution and that investigation went away. Um, so I think it's going to be a mix of those things. >> It's um, it's been it's an interesting political dynamic for Abbott, too. I mean, I think there he's given us no reason to believe that he doesn't he isn't sincerely angry and frustrated with these cities doing it. There are a lot of people in his party, probably him included, that feel very strongly that these police departments should be cooperating with ICE. But it has also, you know, been a very effective strategy for Republicans in recent years to uh blast Democrats for being soft on immigration or or, you know, letting crime run rampant in the streets or or however they might want to frame it. But it's interesting because, you know, the political winds have felt like they've shifted a little bit, right? >> Yeah. No, I was just speaking this morning. I was speaking with our our immigration editor and it's like how like if you're a Republican right now I guess one of the big questions like how do you talk about this because you kind of don't know where voters stand after you know almost two years of the president's immigration crackdown especially here in Texas where I think it's been hasn't had the fanfare of elsewhere in the country but it's you know we have the most attention centers we have the most like the second most agreements with ICE and the state police is like helping on the side of the road like I think the state is cooperating so much that we still haven't seen the the impact on the electorate. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you looked at the, you know, election results in in uh 2024 or other times, right, at you know, there seemed to be a message from voters that many of them, at least those in the middle and on the right, felt that Democrats were being way too soft on immigration. But if you look at the polls now, particularly among Hispanic voters in Texas and elsewhere, there seems to be a feeling that Trump is going way too far. And and how does that fit in? Of course, Greg Abbott is up for reelection this year against a candidate who um you know, I have to be imagine is pretty unhappy about uh you know, who has represented Austin in the legislature and is unhappy about the way this is going down. >> Totally. I mean, safe to say Democrats are feeling hopeful whether they're looking at you know, primary turnout or uh the special election SD9 up in Taran County um when it comes to Hispanic voters and some of that polling about buyers remorse. >> Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, we are right at the end of our time here for today. So, that will do it. Um, pay attention to the Chronicle and the the Texas Tribune for updates on where this story is heading because by the time you're listening to this, it's possible we will have seen some changes there from uh from the mayor in that ordinance. But, Abby, thank you. I know you're busy. Uh, thank you for taking a little bit of time to to walk us through this. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for having me on. I appreciate it. >> And thank you, Alejandro. >> Yeah, always a pleasure. >> All right. And a big thank you to Rob and Chris, our producers, as well. We will talk to y'all next week.