Hi, good evening everybody. Welcome to 92NY. We're so happy you're here. Uh, thanks for join. I'm Sue Solomon. I'm the senior director of the talks program. And uh, I want to say thank you not only for being here, but joining us online. And please note our ushers are going to be passing out 3x5 cards if you have some audience questions. We'll get to as many as we can a little later on. And if you are watching online, please submit your questions in the chat and look for a QR code uh that's going to pop up on your screen so you can have the opportunity to purchase this terrific new book. Uh moderating tonight is a very good friend of 92NY. He's an award-winning New York Times journalist and co-author of CNBC's Squawkbox, a founder and editor at large of Dealbook, a news site published by the Times. He was a co-creator of Showtime's the very popular series Billions and has won numerous journalistic honors. He's also a best-selling author, Too Big to Fail, the inside story of how Wall Street and Washington fought to save the financial system and themselves, which chronled the 2008 financial crisis. He co-produced the HBO adoption adaption, excuse me, of the book, which was nominated for 11 Emmy awards. His latest blockbuster 1929, the inside story of the greatest crash in Wall Street history about the greed, blind optimism, and folly that led to the most infamous infamous stock market crash in history that caused ripple effects still where we're we're feeling today. Uh, as I just said, was his latest. Now, joining him is no slouch. Uh he's an acclaimed financial journalist, the author of the New York Times bestsellers house of cards and power failure, which was named best book of 2022 by the New Yorker, the Financial Times, and the Economist, a longtime special correspondent to Vanity Fair. He is a founding partner of a Wall Street corres and a correspondent for Puck. His new book, Money to Burn: The Unvarnished Truth about Leon Black, Apollo and the Rise of a New Wall Street, is about corruption and power and and power in modern finance. We are delighted to welcome Andrew Ross Sorcin and William Con. >> Good evening everybody. Thank you um and thank you Bill. Congratulations on this uh fascinating book. >> Brings you inside the world of Apollo and uh Leon Black. There's a lot to talk about. Uh yes, we'll get to all of the Epstein of it all uh in in we we'll go there very quickly, but uh before we do that, I want to just here's where I really want to start. Okay. I want to start by understanding how you ultimately convinced Leon Black to sit with you and speak with you for some 20 plus hours. And I want to read this is uh a sentence as as you were you were interviewing him at one point he says I mean the whole idea I'm spending as much time with you as as I'm spending is so out of character. So, I want to get the sort of the backstory of how this actually began. >> It's um it's my special secret sauce. Andrew, >> you're not going to >> um uh it's not as complicated as you think. It was a lot uh easier than you might think. Uh, of course, my wife says, "Why would anybody talk to you? Uh why does anybody talk to you? I don't understand it. They could see what you've written. Why would they talk to you?" Uh exactly >> right. So um well uh I started uh in the you know reporting of the book with with Mark Rowan because I knew Mark >> because when I was a banker at Lazard I had the misfortune of having to call on private equity firms like Apollo and KKR and force Little. Uh, and this was in the 1990 time frame when Apollo had just started and it was a thankless task because of course they were ex M&A bankers and I was an M&A banker and the idea of getting getting them to pay me a fee was of course totally ineth them. It was never going to happen but I kept having to do it and kept beating my head against the wall. So I I interview I started interviewing Mark and then one day I got a call from Leon who of course doesn't call people or whatever. >> So he calls you call him. >> He called me and he said I I hear you're doing this book. I presume you want to talk to me. And of course the answer of that is abs is yes. Of course I want to talk to you. And I was I was going to reach out to you. I was just sort of doing it seriatum and starting with Mark and seeing where I got with that. And uh you know, next thing I know, uh I was at his uh townhouse on the east side uh uh with the vault-like door and the security guard in the basement coming up to greet me at the door where, you know, a big portion of the $5 billion art collection is housed. >> Okay. Now, you started working on this book in what year? >> I would say uh 2023. The GE book came out November 2022. So I let a a day or two go by. >> How I mean he you are prolific >> at this point. How much of the Epstein portion of the story was out there? >> I mean I I I think the material part of it was out there especially uh I mean obviously the uh 3 million uh files weren't out there. that was a this year event you will recall uh which posed its own set of challenges given the publishing process. Uh but I mean by then you know uh we knew that uh as the times correctly reported or began to report that he had paid Epstein by by this time first of all uh Epstein had I think committed suicide. uh that happened in 2019, right? And then the Times reported in uh 2020 that Leon had paid him between 50 and 75 million and that got everybody all a Twitter. Uh and uh Apollo was then asked uh on uh various analyst calls in their various quarterly reports, you know, what what was that all about, Leon? What was why in the world would you pay him this much? You know, what was going on here? So people in institutional investors were getting worried in regular investors were getting worried analysts were getting worried. So then that's when Leon asked uh the special committee of the board of directors of Apollo. He was the chairman of the board of Apollo was also the CEO they formed a special committee and he uh asked them to investigate his involvement with uh Jeffrey Epstein and he says he told me he did that because he believed he did nothing wrong. So I knew that and the decad report was out. That was all 2021. He had, you know, the the the tweets from his woman he was having an affair with came out in March of 2021 and then he resigned uh shortly thereafter. >> So I knew all that. >> So when you're talking to him about all of this, >> it comes across as a very casual conversation. >> Well, we were having casual conversations. >> Yes. But he's having conversations about girlfriends. >> I know. and paying off Epstein. I agree and all of these things. >> Look, half the time my jaw was on the ground even asking the questions. >> Well, so that's what I wanted to understand. So, how are you asking these questions? >> I you know, Andrew, I am sure you mean some of your characters in the latest book are dead. So, that probably made a little easier. But my my characters tend to be alive. Not all of them have the kind of scandals that Leon was involved with, but I just I just went for it. I mean, you just I mean, yeah, he knew what why I was there. He knew it was going to come up. He was on the record the whole time. He never said, "Oh, by this part, the way this part is off the record." The one time I I asked him to actually physically share with me the the the re his the his documents, his trust and estate documents for his kids that had been revised based on the Jeffrey Epstein advice. I asked him to give me that and he said, "No, you can get that on your own. I'm not going to give that to you. And I did get it on my own. >> Okay. So, >> so >> let me ask you this. >> Yeah. >> Um I've read the entire book. >> Well, right there you get a gold star. I still no but I still don't know whether you believe >> Mhm. >> as the author >> Mhm. that these payments that were made to Jeffrey Epstein by Leon Black were made because, as he would say, u he was provided excellent tax advice or whether he whether you believe that he was really being paid because Jeffrey Epstein was a grand fixer for him of uh girls and all sorts of other shenanigans and things that we don't know about. Yeah, that is the $158 million question. >> Well, there's 700 pages about that question and I want to know the answer. >> Not all of them. There's some about Apollo and the new period. Okay. Um, so, you know, when the Decer, here's how I'll answer it. When the Decker report came out in January of 2021, this was the a $5 million report that the law firm Decard wrote, you know, and supposedly had access to Leon's uh emails and documents and all that stuff and wrote a report essentially uh um well exonerating him, I would say, of criminal behavior. Okay. So, uh I wrote a piece in Vanity Fair saying, "Leon, you must think we're idiots. You you must this is like a total joke. You can't you can't possibly think we believe that this is what you paid $158 million for when you could have paid Paul Weiss you know 5 million or 10 million for this kind of advice. So you can't be what you said. So I wrote that and then uh whatever three and a half years later I'm asking him that very he knew he read that he called me up and said I assume you want to talk to me having read that. So when I uh when I interviewed him and asked him that, you know, what did you pay him for? Uh he knew that I didn't >> Okay. But what do you think? >> What do you think? Do you think these payments were for taxes or for something else? By the way, I'm a believer that nothing's black and white. I believe that he could have gotten advice for taxes. >> Both things could be true. He did get advice for taxes for estate, you know, planning. He did. I've seen the document. I've seen >> But I I think underneath it, you may think there's more to it. And let me read you something. >> Yeah, I >> so in >> I think we all think there's more to it. >> Well, I understand that, but but I I want to know what you think. >> Leon doesn't, but I think everybody else does. >> Interestingly, >> and the other person who could potentially answer that, and I'll let you get to this, is is is very much deceased. >> That that is true, too. Um, so you chose to include this quote from Leon's thesis. >> Yeah. at Dartmouth and I want to read it aloud and then maybe you can you can speak to this. This is Leon at Dartmouth. This is what he wrote when he was in college. He says uh the man who is mass the man who is master of his lies poses and mass is a free spirit an existential anti-hero. The man who obediently follows the mast and dictates of others whether it be through religion morality or metaphysical truths is a slave. But whether one is a master or a slave, control his masks, or obeys them, all of life is but an accumulation of masks, and the world itself is but one large, incommunicable, mysterious, and ironical mask. It is the realization that the world is truthless and valueless, and only an amalgamation of masks that must make man ultimately nihilistic. But it is man's constant creation of new masks in the face of this knowledge which gives him the positive existential meaning in a meaningless world. That's dark stuff. I and for him to write that in college blew my mind. And I have the thesis. Okay. It is it is kind of like a master work. But I also think I included that. I wanted to read it and and I did read it and I included that because I think it became a bit of a scary metaphor for his life. I think he has been wearing masks uh his whole life. >> So what are the other masks? >> Well, I think he's you know what you know is as Andrew I know you'll find this to be true because George Castanza said it. It's not a lie if you believe it. And I think Leon believes his story. He has put on this mask that is his the Jeffrey Epstein story. He believes it. He uh now whether he's also convinced various lawyers who I spoke to in the reporting of the book uh to also believe it because he >> pays them to believe it uh and say to me what he wanted them to say. um whether um you know I've seen the revised uh trust in estates documents based on Epstein's you know this what I call this miracle consideration concept but I won't bore the audience with that uh but um I've seen the documents that were revised so and and he according to the DECA report he was saved as much as $2 billion as a result of that and the IRS has never challenged that Ron Weiden makes a lot of noise about it. Um, uh, Jim Comr isn't even talking about that. So, uh, did did that fix the problem? I mean, I have a problem believing there was a mistake to begin with because he got the best trust and estates lawyer in New York City to do them. >> Oh, you and let's just back up for those who haven't read the book or know this piece of it. The mistake was this. There was a mistake that apparently Jeffrey Epstein found in >> No, no, he didn't find it. explain. Let's take everybody. >> All right. Are you guys ready for this? I mean, this this could this could be tough sledding here. Okay. Uh I'm going to do my best on this. So, um you know uh many of us might have trust in estates uh documents that we are very proud of that we created for our children thinking that we've accomplished something. We're sitting there with the lawyers and the trust and estate lawyers going on about what we're doing and like the minute we leave the room, we have no idea what we created. Like I have no I mean I've done this several times with my own trust and estates lawyer I have no idea what I've really created and now working with my parents estate I have no idea what they created even though they thought they created something that was useful and beneficial. So Leon created uh his at this point he had about a $5 billion fortune. Now it's 18 billion. Uh and and he wanted to give like, you know, two billion of it away to his kids. He's got four kids. I mean, is that 500 million each or something? Something like that. So he goes to uh who person who's supposedly the best trust and estates lawyer in New York and has her you draft these documents and they get drafted and he's living his life and I guess they had like a four-year life or they're grats or they exper you know they expired after five years or something. I don't know why that would be, but it was. And so, uh, he feels like somebody says to him, there's like a mistake in this, like you're going to owe $2 billion in your lifetime, uh, because of this drafting error, which, you know, I found hard to believe. It was like when Jaime Diamond tried to blame Wtel for the drafting error in the merger agreement when he bought Bear Sterns. >> I remember that. You remember that? You wrote about it. I've written about it when when and they ended up having to to quintuple the price they paid from $2 a share to $10 a share and he blamed it on WTEL. Well, this okay, I'm sorry. There's no way that Wtel made a drafting error, I don't think. And I don't think there's a way that this lady made a drafting error, but whatever. She apparently this was the concern. So, he shows it to all these various highpriced other lawyers around town, Paul Weiss, etc., you know, Sullivan and Cromwell, whoever, and uh nobody could figure out what to do. So, at this point, I guess it's like a Hail Mary pass. It's like the Doug float fluty moment. He he uh uh calls up Jeffrey Epstein, who by this time was his friend and was on the board of his family foundation. I said to Leon, "How could you put Jeffrey Epstein on the board of your family foundation? That's like a highly intimate move for somebody who you you barely know, right? Or whatever. Well, the Family Foundation didn't do anything, so what's the big deal? It was more ceremonial than anything else. We hardly ever met, so fine. So he he says to Jeffrey Epstein, uh, you know, nobody else could figure this out. You got any ideas? So he says, "Send me the documents." So he sent him the documents. And Jeffrey Epstein was a total apparently autodidact. I mean, he didn't graduate from college and he was teaching math at Dalton for crying out loud. I mean, you know, I mean, this is like from Coney Island. The whole thing is hard to believe. And uh he he next thing you know, he says, "Well, apparently you needed a a way to change the documents." It's not that he was a trust and estates lawyer, but apparently, now again, I find this hard to believe too. Uh, apparently Leon got 400 million of extra dividends on his Apollo stock that he wasn't entitled to. And and for some reason it was like a mistake. A mistake. $400 million mistake. And so Jeffrey Epste says, "Well, if you give that back, that could be the consideration for changing these documents." So Leon says, "Yeah, okay. That sounds good to me. I'll give it back. I'll give up 400 million and I'll save two billion. Uh, I can do that math. That makes sense to me. Uh, and so that was what I call the miracle consideration. And then he, you know, talked to Paul Weiss. He talked to the other blah blah blah. And they said, "Yeah, I think that would work." So they reddrafted the documents. He gave up that >> and he saves $2 billion. >> He saved $2 billion. And that was the solution. And I saw the revised documents and no one and I talked to various lawyers who worked on them, shall we say. And uh um >> and so just to be clear though, >> yeah, >> you now told this whole story that he's told. >> Yeah, >> it's unclear to me whether you believe the story and it that's the part that I'm trying to get at because it's unclear whether anybody believes his story, but he believes it. >> No, no, I'm sure he believes it. >> He dove definitely believes it and he told it to me on the record. What am I supposed to do? I'm just a journalist. Well, but well, but part of that is trying to get underneath it and and what I'm trying to understand is whether people and and look, sometimes you you don't get to the bottom of something, but you got get a hint from somebody along the way, but either you can't use it or you don't know how to use it or whatever. Was there >> was there any portion of the reporting and maybe it never made it into the book, but was there any portion of the reporting where you talked to somebody of of real substance who was actually intimately involved in all this where you said, "Yeah, yeah, this is much darker." the sort of view I don't know the sort of prevailing view in this city about Lyon or at least some of the allegations uh uh that people might imagine um that it was that dark or did you really find in the end that it really was not that at all? >> Okay, le let's you know I think we can stipulate at this point that he was willing to have uh affairs outside of his marriage. Did you end up talking to his wife by the way? >> I met his wife once. She walked in when we were talking. >> How did that go? >> Uh, you know, is it went about how it went when I met Michelle David Ba's wife after I was asking him about the affairs that he had had outside of his marriage. Uh, and >> I don't recall how that went. >> Uh, she uh was a hugenot, a French hugenot. She was very stony and icy. Uh, and mi mrs Mrs. black Debbie Wrestler comes from a very distinguished family by the way uh was you know not great not really not that happy to see me and I I remember when once several occasions when I was interviewing Jack Welch and Susie Welch would be sitting there she once said to uh him Jack why are you talking to this guy and she was a journalist and she knew what I was doing she knew that I was there to write this book and interviewing stop talking to this guy and Jack to his credit said ah Susie shut >> >> So uh I so I did talk to her briefly but not what was I going to ask her. What you know was is it how do you feel about your husband having affairs with women who is not his wife? I mean >> sure that's the question I'd ask. >> Would you >> if I was >> Yeah. I don't remember you asking Elon Musk uh about his 20 10 or 20 wives and concubines and 50 children and it's a tough one. It's a it's a tough one. Uh I mean we all know there's a lot of innuendo, right? >> An extraordinary amount of innuendo. He definitely had affairs for whatever reasons. uh he got, you know, one of them, you know, tried to extort him for $100 million and ended up paying, you know, agreeing to pay $21 million in exchange for an NDA and actually paid her 9 million before she blew that up. I mean, the Times has reported that, you know, he paid another 20 million or something to other women. Of course, there's all sorts of explanations they have for why he paid those women. Uh >> what did he say about all of that to you? >> So I mean he can't deny Guzelle Geva uh you know I got a hold of the transcripts of he wore a wire when she started extorting him. This is like really out of HBO. He uh he he he started wearing a wire when when she was trying to extort him for hund00 million dollars and they would go to restaurants like at the Four Seasons, the 21 Club, uh uh the the the bar at the St. Reges, uh uh and places in London. I mean, it was incredible. And they would they would have these very civil conversations about what to order, you know, uh you know, should we have the soul? Well, I'm trying to eat a little less. Uh maybe I but I I want the creamed spinach. And uh you know, and then she would say, "Yeah, and I want $100 million, too." And he he was like, "You know, guess what? Uh I'm not going to give you $100 million." But eventually they whittleled it down to to him agreeing to give her $21 million. So he he couldn't deny that one. I I I've certainly heard enough stories of people around town of him showing up at various events with young women, you know, relatively age appropriate, not that, you know, young uh uh who are not his wife. I mean, but then I I also heard stories of him, you know, uh being a a great father and his kids being lovely, me, many several of whom I met, one of whom works for the Trump administration. Um so as he as as Leon himself said life is complicated and uh I don't uh you know I still remain in answer to your question counselor uh uh doubling back to all that I still I'm still I know what he told me. I know he believes it. I know the other party to the conversations and the actions is dead and there's no way I can >> get to the bottom of that. I assume Gilain either, you know, if she knows, she doesn't certainly ain't talking to me. I don't I can't offer her a pardon. Uh I I uh I remain, you know, I know what he told me. I haven't come AC I mean, I've been through the documents in the file. I've seen uh weird uh Jeffrey Epstein, you know, Leon didn't respond to any of Jeffrey's emails. That's another fascinating thing. I mean, if if only Larry Summers had been smart enough to do that. Uh but Leon didn't respond. So, it was all this one-sided ranting from Jeffrey Epste and it showed him completely unhinged most of the time and but weird references to like I I saved you on this one or I fixed that for you or you know you know if you're not going to pay me what you owe me, why don't we just stick to having fun kind of thing. It's like weird references. So, I mean, certainly I wondered about that, but uh their answer to all that is he's a raving freaking lunatic and so uh you know, he'll say anything or do anything and that's why I stopped associating with him. >> Um let me ask you a separate question because it's in the news uh effectively this week. Um he has now sued uh the US government. >> No, no, the Congress. >> Congress. He has sued Congress of uh the US government >> and he is and he is not testifying. Well, he was supposed to he got uh subpoenaed, >> right, >> to testify September 3rd and instead of testifying >> he sued >> he sued uh James Comr and that committee. Yes. >> This is something that I believe has never been done in history. >> I I'm pretty sure it's never been done before, but if anybody would do it, it would be Leon. >> Have you talked to him about it? >> I've talked I've talked to his people about it. >> Okay. uh and uh you know >> and what do you what do you think this apart is about for him? >> He he look he believes and you know no offense here uh he believes the times and the FT and the journal and air mail and others are like uh coming after him relentlessly. Uh he believes I've described him as being like St. Sebastian. He believes that he's got uh he's been the target of everybody's, you know, he's like a a whipping boy. This is what he believes. Okay, I'm not saying what I believe, but he believes he's just a lowhanging fruit for for the media to come after him because of all the money that he paid to Epstein, which is, you know, inexplicable basically to most people. Although he explained it by saying, "I own 93 million shares of Apollo. So the stock goes up a dollar. That's $93 million. So what's 158? That's a$150 a share. So So he thinks he's been a whipping boy. He thinks the Ron Widen is doing the same thing and he thinks Jim Comr is doing the same thing. So he doesn't he you know he's you know and and and Wigdor the law firm did it with three women against him one of whom was gazelle and they've all basically lost. You know, he thinks that I mean, maybe he's a paranoid schizophrenic. I mean, uh, he thinks that uh Josh Harris, he filed a RICO lawsuit against Josh Harris, who was his partner because he felt like that Josh Harris created a conspiracy with Guzelle to try to >> So, is the lawsuit aimed at uh at keeping him from testifying so that he doesn't have to testify? >> No, I think he want he's willing to testify. >> You think he is willing to testify? He want he he he he wanted to testify about his relationship with Jeffrey Epste. He thought that this was about trying to get to the bottom of people's relationships with Jeffrey Epste. That's why Bill Gates was there. That's why Kathy Rumler was there. That's why uh you know other people were there. He went the first time in June to testify and he was testifying but they never really asked him questions about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. They you know after about an hour they started asking him about his NDAs and hit him with a subpoena to produce his NDAs which you know that is a contractual relationship between two people not to get all technical but he can't unilaterally give those over and what's the relevant they they have this in their mind that Jeffrey Epstein helped him with all these NDAs and there's no evidence of that. So he's like saying okay you're you're I'm like a piñata for you. I'm like a to for your to advance your political agenda. >> Well, let me ask you this. And you talked about a couple of the media organizations and maybe this is going to be complicated because I work for the New York Times and there has been a bit of a back and forth. >> Not really, but a little >> in in the press about this and there's been no but there were a number of criticisms. >> No, Ben hit me up with that. >> There were a number of criticisms no lodged at the times reporting by Leon Black's team in the book. >> Yes. Um, >> that's true. >> That is true. >> Yes. Guess what? They don't li He didn't like being accused of, you know, nefarious criminal activity on the front page of the New York Times. >> But it turned out to be true. >> What turned out to be true? >> The money, the women, all all of the pieces that were that were published. >> It is true that he paid 158 million to Jeffrey Epstein. He thinks it was for tax and and business and, you know, and estate advice. and and he believes that the uh Deca report which he asked for nobody else who was involved in Jeffrey Epstein asked for a $5 million investigation to be done and he said he asked for that because he believes he did nothing wrong. >> But don't so do you are you do you think the reporting was unfair? because I look at the reporting and say that reporting was some of the original reporting that led to uh to some of this becoming some of it if not all of it becoming public for the very first time. >> Well, yeah, it it definitely led to the Decarder report and which which in its way led to Leon abdicating his role as CEO uh and chairman of the board. So, but I could see him being upset about >> but some of the report some of the reporting uh frankly uh you can see the origin of it knowing as much as I do now like Wigdor who was representing Guzelle and these two other women who came after him you know clearly was a source uh >> can I say something about that and this is something I think about >> all of which has been been I mean He's been cleared of all of that, all of those out, you know, charges. >> But those women were alleging those things. >> Yes. Egged on by Wigdor. I mean, the thing is, you know, just take Ganyva for for a minute. I mean, she had a $21 million deal with Leon. All she had to do was I mean the fact that she tried to extort him for $100 million that no that never was known right and it's in the book but I mean that that that was not so she had a $21 million all she had to do was keep her part of the bargain which is she signed the NDA just not talk about it which is what he wanted what he paid for and and so why would somebody who just had to sit there and keep doing what she does. >> Well, there's an argument about the truth. I mean, look, NDAs I I'm not I'm a journalist, so I love and you do too. I think you love people who would be very happy to break an NDA because they feel like there's a higher purpose, >> right? I don't think in her case she thought that her higher purpose was was trying to get more money and I'm sure Wigdor uh egged her on to that and that's their game. But, uh and then they did it with two other women, too. And look, It's all very unseammly. I mean, it's not pretty. >> Let me trans Let me transition the conversation uh from maybe the unsemly to maybe uh and a large portion of this book is really not about >> We're still talking about this guy. He's been dead uh uh seven years now. >> A large portion of this book is not about uh the relationship between Leon and >> some of the reviewers have pointed out that that didn't begin until page 420 or something. Yeah, >> but but but it sits behind so much of the book. >> Um, but to me, one of the things that was fascinating as somebody who just loves uh reading about Wall Street and Wall Street characters, I mean, you really do get into these various characters both inside of Apollo itself, whether you're talking about Mark Rowan or Josh and that relationship. uh but also the role that Michael Milin played effectively in the creation of Apollo or the role of Nelson Peltz who happened to be um Leon's camp counselor uh ironically >> crazy >> um I'm curious when you think about Wall Street today and this world of private credit and private equity um and you look at Apollo as as I think one of the main examples of sort of the transformation of the industry How much of that do you think of as something that Leon did or is really I mean you give a lot of uh attention and highlight of the role of Mark Rowan um and his role on Wall Street today? >> Yeah. None of that was Leon. >> None of it. >> No. >> Did he understand it? >> No. And neither did Josh Harris. Uh you know, it's it's like tax and estate advice. It's I mean Mark said to me something that you know really hit home. He said so like there are things that I get and things that I don't get. Like he said uh you know somebody could come in and talk about oil and gas uh an oil and gas deal and drilling for whatever hydrocarbons or something and and they'll sit there and I'll go uhuh uhhuh and then as soon as they leave the room and it's over I can't I couldn't tell you one thing they said and I can't remember it and they'd have to start all over again the next day. He told me, but with insurance, you know, God bless him. He picks that up. He's like a sponge. He, you know, he, you know, he did, you know, they did the executive life deal, which they bought the junk bond portfolio for half of what its face amount was and made a fortune. And then he did the deal with Jessica Biblowitz, Sandy Wild's daughter, to create National Financial Partners, which was an insurance brokerage. So he then he learned the insurance brokerage business. And then, you know, after the financial crisis, along comes Jim Bolardi and says, "I want to create uh a theme. I want to create an annuity insurance company." You know, and most people on Wall Street would say, "Yeah, okay. Thank you. That's great. Good luck with that." But Mark Roland said, "No, I totally get what you're talking about. Yeah, let's do it. And not only that, I don't want it to be a investment in an from an Apollo fund. I want this to be from Apollo itself." And so, here's $16 million, which is nothing. He's like, he said to me, you know, $16 million. Leon doesn't, you know, get up in the morning for less than hund00 million. So, what does he care about? 16 million. Josh didn't even know what the hell an insurance company was. He's like a chemical. He's buying sports teams and and doing chemical deals. So, Mark had his own little sandbox. He gets the gives him the 16 million. They start this company. They make all these acquisitions and next thing you know, it's the largest annuity company in the world. And and that's why >> by design or not by design or by Mark's design. I mean I think Mark's design. >> So the one of the things that seems so fascinating to me in the book is that that Mark seems to be developing this almost on the side. >> He is >> without >> they don't know they have no idea >> the input or knowledge of everybody else fully at least. And it was almost like a stealth takeover though I don't know if that was really what he thought in the beginning. >> This is Mark talking about. No, he he he he knew it could look. So, there were a couple of important things that happened. He he he knew it could scale, right? He knew I mean, I don't think he thought it would be the the origin of the private credit market. I mean, uh you know, you you had uh the regulations on Wall Street after 2008. So, they you know, the old Wall Street firms were prevented from you know, they had to be in the moving business, not the storage business. They couldn't keep these assets on their balance sheet. that created, you know, a vacuum in the market which, you know, Mark was smart enough to see that he could begin to fill. But but the other thing that was very important and and this you know say what you will about Leon and we talked a lot about Leon and his how shall we say uh quirks and foibless uh but he uh uh decided in his own unilaterally uh he was the largest shareholder of Apollo of the management company you know of the uh and he decided unilaterally to give Mark and Josh you know 58 million Apollo shares from his own pocket. So that that that is now worth like 10 or 12 billion dollars. Now that's probably the single largest gift ever bestowed on, you know, some dweebs, you know, one dweeb from Long Island, another dweeb from Maryland. >> So explain that. How did that happen? >> Because Leon, so Leon starts the firm in 1990 and he brings a bunch of people from Drexel with him. Most of he was head of M&A at Drexel. So he brings like guys who are about his vintage you know the John Hannins of the world his brother-in-law Tony wrestler you know others and and they come and they start this company but of course you need peons to do the work right because you know you got you know flows downhill and so uh he brings in Mark Rowan and Mark brings in Josh Harris who actually was working at Blackstone who left Blackstone after three months. I don't think anybody in the history of the world has left Blackstone 3 months after they got there to go to this new company called Apollo, but he did it. So, so those are the two guys doing the, you know, among others who are Michael Gross too, who who are doing the heavy lifting on a day-to-day basis. And then over time, you know, these guys who came in as Leon's, you know, quasi peers, you know, they left. you know, John Hannon had some health issues and and Tony Wrestler started Aries, which originally started inside of Apollo and then spun out and, you know, so they everybody started doing their own thing and it was sort of Leon who's like 10 years older than Mark and Josh, you know, was left with, you know, kind of Mark and Josh who were still there and he decided, okay, the firm has to go public and I need to tell the story that it's not just me, it's uh it's me with these guys who are my partners who may in fact one day be my successors. So everybody calm down. I you know not like every >> he called them his co-founders which then later >> well they latched on to right. So he said he said to him the first thing I'm going to do is give you 58 million shares and and and you know and and Mark apparently negotiated hard and Josh was like why do we want to go public? And and Leon said because the day you go public you're going to be a billionaire so you might you know sit back and enjoy the ride. Can I um Josh Harris gets the short straw in this book? I think you do. You have a dim view of of Josh Harris. Is that >> I I was just being kind of reportorial. >> Okay. >> Uh I think his colleagues had a very dim view of him. >> Very >> very hard to work for. You know, we all you know, I don't know, you may not have this at the New York Times or at CNBC, but believe it or not, on Wall Street there are occasionally bosses that make your life very difficult. And uh I have some of the I have some of the scars from that. And so I can totally relate to how difficult a boss Josh Harris seemed to be and the anecdotes. I mean I only included a few there. I I could have done the whole book of anecdotes about how difficult a boss Josh Harris was. So now he was a very good deal guy. Uh but he was very difficult to work for and he was a terrible manager of people and nobody wanted to work for him. So I mean I'm sorry if I but I told Josh this. he knows what that it was going to be in there. He said, "Yeah, so what?" It's like, and then another part, you know, somebody said, you know, made all this speculation about Leon and why he stepped out and you be, you know, being fat and, you know, blah blah blah and not attractive. And so, you know, one of his people told him about that and he said, "Yeah, so what?" You know, you may not like this part, Leon. Yeah, so what? I mean, I think let's face it. I mean, first of all, Leon gave these guys this gift of 58 million shares. Okay, they made them 10 billion each and made them, you know, he could have kept that money for himself. He'd probably be one of the rich I mean, now Ken Griffith is worth what, 60 billion. Steve Schwarz is worth 50 billion. Leon could be worth 50 billion now if he hadn't given >> Does he regret it, you think? >> Well, he no, he he did it intentionally. He never got credit for it. And then he said, "If you want to call yourself co-founders, you can. I don't care. But we all know you weren't. But but you if you want to for marketing purposes, feel free. And now they go around saying they're co-founders all the time. >> And that seems to upset him to no end. >> That him to no end because he feels like, you know, that's not true. Like the the the story is being rewritten. Bill, could you you make sure that people know that I'm upset about this. And so I oblige. I'd be happy to include that he's upset about that. Um >> talk about other things that you included. You could, since we're on the topic of Josh Harris, who now of course owns the Commanders, um, and also owns the 76ers and now has LeBron and >> and now is LeBron. What else does he own? Um, owns a hockey team as well. >> New Jersey Devils piece of a soccer team, football. >> There is a there is a fascinating sort of tale told about him, Josh potentially trying to attempt a coup. >> Oh, yes. not not trying. He did >> tell us about that. >> Well, I mean as as as uh you know this has you know right every good story has a Shakespearean element, right? Uh we're at the 92nd Street Y after all have to mention Shakespeare. And so uh uh so I mean Leon described him as Ago, right? Uh you know, the guy who was frustrated, you know, and wanted to kill the king or whatever. So, uh, uh, you know, when the, you know, was starting to hit the fan with Leon, you after the Times reporting, a >> after, uh, of the analysts calls, but pretty much right before the Decker report came out, uh, Josh thought that the Decker report was a bit was a whitewash and he went to some of the board members and, you know, I don't know exactly what he was hoping to accomplish, but like, hey, you can't put this report out. This isn't really telling what really happened. Okay, fine. U >> So what does Josh So now we have somebody This is where I was going with this. What does Josh think really happened? >> Oh, Josh. So So the other thing a very another important part of this was uh like in in October of that year before the decade report came out and and this was in the uh journal excerpt of of of the book which was about that power struggle. Uh uh Josh cooperated willingly with a journal piece which like photographed him in Central Park in a trench coat like with the headline saying, you know, uh you know, Apollo has a $450 billion problem that only Josh Harris can solve. So Leon's looking at that and saying, "What the is what what what is that? I gave this guy 58 million shares. I made him a billionaire. I enabled his the sports ventures. He can call himself co-founder if he wants. I didn't even know when he got hired. I didn't even know where who he was. And now he's trying to, you know, take over control the firm, saying he's the only one that can solve the problems at Apollo. So I mean and what little did Josh know that by then Leon had already picked Mark to be his successor because of this insurance thing and Athen and private credit and plus he wanted he didn't want Josh to be the steward of his 93 million shares. He wanted and he didn't want even I mean Mark I think would have been a co- CEO with Josh. He was willing to do that and there was lots of emails where Josh was trying to do that uh even after the DECA report came out and and and all of that. Um, and Leon said, "No, I don't want you, Mark. If you are co-CEO with Josh, he's going to drive you nuts immediately and you're going to quit and I'm going to be stuck with Josh as the steward of my 93 million shares, and I can't have that. So, you have to do this. If we're going to merge with Athen, the 11 billion deal that they did soon after in 2021, if we're going to merge with Athen, and we're going to build this private credit business, you have to agree to be the CEO." I mean, it was like a four-year campaign that he was on to do that. And in the middle of all that four-year campaign was COVID, and Mark decided to take a sbatical, which Leon insisted on calling a semi-batical. So, people didn't think he was taking a real sbatical, even though he was, because Leon wanted Mark to take over, and he didn't want people to think that Mark was on the way out and he'd be stuck with Josh. And then he he he's filed a RICO lawsuit against Josh, accusing him of conspiring with Guzelle Gva, the woman he was having an affair with. By the way, you can't make this up. >> You're a you're a script writer. What >> is does any of this appeal to your >> Absolutely. Um but for Epstein, do you believe that Leon would still be at Apollo today? >> No, I don't. He he he had been I mean obviously he knew did did he know that uh it was going to leak out that he gave all this money to Epstein and that that then then he would commission the the decorate report would be commissioned and uh uh that this would be a conflration and that then three million files would come out and no he didn't anticipate any of this obviously who who thinks that's going to happen. But he did want Mark to run the firm because he could see even though he didn't understand insurance and what Mark was up to, he could see that this was, you know, this was their way to get permanent capital, which is the holy grail, the Bergkshire, everyone wants to be Bergkshire Hathway. Uh he he realized that G Capital had gone out of business and then there was a vacuum in the market between that happening and and the Fed regulating Wall Street firms. And so there was an opening that Mark saw because he was smart enough to figure that out. He could get permanent capital from Athen. They could then invest it in the spread business and get more for the you know pay pay people 5% a year and get 12% from others. >> Let me ask you as somebody who has worked on Wall Street and covered Wall Street, do you think Oh goodness, they're bringing us some questions. Do you think that the private credit model and there's lots of questions about the world of private credit? >> Yeah. >> Which is something that >> I read that ideal book on a daily basis almost. >> We we we talk about it a lot. Um >> that private credit is a great thing, is a dangerous thing, should be regulated, should look more like a bank. What do you think now that you spent all of this time inside of this firm that has become the model for sort of the new version of banking 2.0? >> Hence the that aspect of the subtitle. >> Yes. >> Yes. Uh look uh I mean I mean what do I think about the junk bond market? I mean it's ask me what I think about that. Uh I think the democratization of capital is a very good thing. getting capital to people who want it and can pay for it uh who might not otherwise have access to it. You know, before junk bonds and before what we'll call private credit. I mean, you know, it was very hard for companies to get access to capital. So, this is a very good thing if you believe in job creation and growth and a strong economy, which you know, let's say we stipulate that we agree to that. So, I think it but it, you know, is a moral matter. I don't think I don't have a view on just like I don't have a view of the junk bond market versus it's just another financing vehicle. There was a vacuum in the market because of the Fed regulations and after the 2008 financial crisis and DoddFrank and basically not wanting the Wall Street banks to be exacerbate the financial crisis like they did in 2008 because they larded up their balance sheet with all this crap. So now they've moved it off into what's called the shadow banking market or the alternative asset managers. And you know Apollo has a trillion dollars of assets under management now. 150 billion of which are private equity and 850 billion is private credit and you know whatever 10 years ago 8 years ago it was zero. >> So rank it. Here's a question that's just just come to us. Is Apollo the most important financial institution today or in history? What do you think? >> Well, I mean, uh, it's it's one of the most important. That's one of the reasons I wanted to write this book is because it is one of the most important financial institutions today. Just like in its time, Drexel through the creation of the junk bond market and the high yield market was one of the most important financial institutions of its time. And we know what happened to Drexel. It blew up. So the question is is Apollo going to blow up? >> And what do you think? >> Uh I I think that there is risk in its model because it really is for all its highulutin talk about matching the duration of assets and liabilities and not lending not borrowing short and lending long. It really is a bank. It's really just an unregulated bank. You can't go to the ATM machine at the Apollo building in 9157th and get your money out. But, you know, people have have signed annuity contracts with Athen. And if they want their money back, they can get it back. And there'll be penalties and tax consequences, but they can get it back. And if enough people do that, enough people do that because they get worried about whether they're going to get that annual money that that's been promised to them contractually, then Apollo could have a problem. >> Um, by the way, you talked about Drexel. You go through the relationship between Michael Milin and Leon Black. Leon Black has a a pretty sympathetic, if not empathetic, view of Milin and what happened to him. totally. >> And do you think that that has informed the way he thinks about his own situation today? >> Um, I think he would like a Mike Milin-like redemption, but people, you know, Mike Milin pleaded guilty to securities fraud and spent 22 months in prison in California. He then uh uh came out, was banned from the securities industry for life. uh and is, you know, focused on his private investments or whatever, focused on uh trying to cure cancer, uh has focused on co-opting much of the financial media every year to go out to his Milkin Institute. Uh so nobody crit and uh got Trump to give him a pardon and Trump won. So, uh, you know, I think he's been, you know, he's nobody nobody talks about and and and I mentioned to you this in the green room when I tried to find the indictment, 100page indictment of Mike Milin like on the internet like or in Chat TV or whatever like people do these days. It was not there. He somehow got it out of the public realm. I had to go to the Southern District of New York and pay them to go through their archives to pull this document and send it to me. So, you know, he's, you know, uh on he's like fully redeemed. Nobody even remembers what he did. >> And do you think that's fair or unfair? It sounds like you think that's a problem. >> Yeah, I do have a problem with that. I do have a problem with that. He pleaded guilty to securities fraud. He didn't have to. First, he pleaded not guilty. he's going to fight it to the death. And then he, you know, pled guilty and spent 22 months in prison and he tries to whitewash that. And Leon uh, you know, has not been convicted of anything and yet is a social outcast. And he told me, as I think I mentioned to you, he's got a, you know, listen up 92 92nd Street Y, he's got a billion dollars in his found foundation that he's having trouble giving it away because people don't want >> Okay, so now you know who to call. >> Yeah. >> Um, so, um, this is actually a great question and it's something I I wanted to hit on because it actually opens the book and it's a, um, dramatic scene. I'll read the question. What effect did Leon Black's father have on his career? So maybe you need to explain what happened to his father because I think that also had a big impact on him. >> Well, this is why I start the book with this because I call that chapter rose bud. So it obviously had a huge uh impact as you you know when you were quoting from his Dartmouth thesis about masks. I didn't get a sense that there was a great financial genius uh behind uh that uh writing. Uh he was a philosophy major at Dartmouth. He wrote that thesis. Uh he thought about getting it published. He ended up not getting it published. He didn't want to go to Wall Street. He didn't want to go to business school. his father uh basically you know he used to go around with his father who okay short version uh he comes from a 10 generations of Orthodox rabbis okay his father was an Orthodox rabbi his father was a practicing Orthodox rabbi in beautiful Woodmir Long Island okay so uh he decided after three years of that not loving being an Orthodox rabbi anymore I'm going to go to business school. So he goes to Columbia Business School and from there he goes to Lehman Brothers. He's a banker at Lehman Brothers and he gets a lot of accounts that nobody else wants and one one of those accounts is of a client who owns a bunch of companies. He goes to work, leaves Leman, goes to work for that and start and becomes CEO of a company called American Seal Cap Company, which believe it or not used to make the paper caps on milk bottles that used to get delivered to our doorstep once upon a time for the older people in the crowd who may remember when that used to happen. And so once upon a time, this company manufactured like zillions of paper milk bottle caps. And then he over time he bought other companies. At one point he owned Baskin Robbins. He owned A&W root beer. He owned Foster Grant Sunglasses. He was he he created a conglomerate. He bought Chaita Bananas. Uh he it beca it was known as United Brands. And then >> okay and then there's a scandal a major scandal which you can read about in the book and he jumped out of the pan building and killed himself in 1975 when Leon was uh in his second year at Harvard Business School and that story of him jumping out of the panam building committing suicide very rich and powerful CEO of a publicly traded company uh was on the front page of the New York Times. So how do you think that to this question impacted his career and the way he approaches life? >> Hugely. I mean don't you think suicide? >> Sure. I'm trying to understand father. >> Yes. Well first of all he didn't want to go to business school. He didn't want to be a businessman. He was thinking about maybe I'll go into movies. Maybe I'll I'll be a journalist. Maybe I'll be a philosopher. I don't know. But I don't want to be a businessman. But then his father committed suicide. the family was living on Park Avenue and uh you know wealthy uh I think he was once on the Forbes list with $100 million or something and you know the his fortune was tied to the stock jumps out of the building 44 floors onto splat onto Park Avenue and the stock goes splat too. So, uh, Leon's mother was an artist, his sister was a teacher, his aunt was a art dealer. Uh, Leon felt he had to step it up and take care of his family, which is, you know, in a way kind of noble. So, he graduates Harvard Business School, which he didn't want to go to. Great grades. Uh, he worked, he had worked at Goldman. Uh, he was offered a job at Goldman, turned it down, which I find hard to believe. He was offered a job at Solomon, he turned it down. I find that hard to believe. He uh wanted to go to >> find it hard to believe like as in you don't believe that that's what happened or >> No, I believe that's what happened. I find it hard to I mean Mark Rowan tells me he turned down Goldman too. I mean who turns down Goldman Sachs? Maybe I'm projecting. I don't know. Uh but you know it's harder to get into Goldman than is to get into Harvard. So I don't know who uh you know turns down Goldman but both these guys turned down Goldman. And he wanted to go to Lehman >> right where his father >> where his father worked. and he had all these interviews at Leman and they rejected him and he said why are you rejecting me and he was deeply disappointed. He said he got curled up in the fetal position when he didn't get that job. And this guy Steve Fster who was the, you know, partner there telling him, "Well, we just didn't think it was a good fit." And he said, "No, no, no, no. I, you know, I need more than that. I need more. Uh, you can't just, you know, toss me off with this not a good fit line." Uh, and basically they he told them that he didn't think he had what it took. >> And then he went to Drexel instead. >> We have two final questions. Uh, one is just a very detailed one. Uh, but maybe maybe you can provide the answer. Uh, where did the $5 million payment for the investigation come from? >> Oh, from Apollo. >> Leon paid for his own no special committee of the board of directors was set up came from Apollo. Apollo paid. >> And then the final question of the night. >> Yes. >> On behalf of the room. >> Yes. >> Is the average person a sucker for investing in the stock market? You know, we say at Puck, this is not investment advice. Uh, no, I don't think the average person is a sucker. I think it depends what you invest in. Uh, I think right now we're all being taken a ride with AI valuations and we saw, you know, primmaaccia evidence of that with the SpaceX IPO. So, I would steer clear of that kind of crap. But uh you know basic stock market I'm invested in the stock market and it's been very very good to me. >> Hopefully we all have money to borrow. Here's the man William Cohan. Thank you. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you everybody.