And we are live. Um, and I am delighted to be joined today by Bill Cohen, friend of mine, great journalist, former banker who has written a very juicy book about somebody I talk about a great deal uh on this Substack. Um, Neon Blap. Um, the book is called Money to Burn. And when I put you know, post this afterwards. I'll I'll include a link. Um, so anyone who wants can can buy the book, which I think just came out on on Tuesday, right, Bill? >> Right. >> Um, and so it's about Leon Black and it's about Apollo, the uh, and we do we still call Apollo a private equity firm or a growth equity firm? >> Oh, no, no, no, no. Vicki, please, please. Okay. We call it an alternative asset management firm, >> right? Okay. Um, okay. So, it's it's it's I would say and I haven't yet read it all, Bill. I focused for obvious reasons on the bits about Jeffrey Epstein and Leon Black. >> Sure. >> But it's but it's >> as I would expect you would have. >> Yes. But it's but well I was I am for a different discussion. I'm very interested in the founding of Apollo because many years ago somebody phoned me when I was in London um and explained to me that the origins of Apollo and credit Leon and French President Jacqu Shirat were all very murky and I noticed that you do get into um >> Oh yes, >> you do get into that. >> Um >> very criminal too. >> Yes. So before we get to the Epstein stuff, I let me just ask you this. Why Leon Black? Why Apollo? Why why do why write this book? I mean, was it because of the Epstein news hook or or No. >> Well, I mean, it didn't hurt obviously. I >> didn't think I was going to get a 3 million uh page or document download in, you know, available to me. I I mean, you know, Vicki, you know, my books and my writing. I mean, I I like a great story. I I I like a great yarn. And, you know, this in many ways says it all. from, you know, Leon's father to uh Milin to Drexel to the implosion of Drexel to rising from the axes from building Apollo, you know, to their contrarian approach to investing >> uh to becoming big successes and multi-billionaires and getting all the toys that billionaires get and then uh branching off into uh questionable behavior. So, >> and then the succession battle. So in in my view it I mean what didn't it doesn't it have >> no >> and it's never been really mined before. So, and just for people who may not know, I mean, what Bill's referring to is that Leon Black's father died by jumping out of his office window. Um, >> and building on Park Avenue, >> right? And and he was running a company called United Brands at the time and and the speculation as to why um he killed himself has has, you know, never really ended. And that is that's a whole topic of discussion all by itself. And then you know Leon Black's own career is I think noteworthy. I mean there's no question that the guy is smart but you know he's he has traveled with a you know a den of thieves so to speak. I mean, he f, you know, he hanging out with Mike Milin, um, famously went to jail, um, for Drexel and then forming this company, Apollo, out of the ashes of Drexel again in with with a lot of murky circumstances. Um, but we're not here to really talk. And and then Leon Black became one of the most if not the preeminent art collector in this country. I mean, you know, it's typical what do these guys do with all this wealth? You know, they buy art, they buy women, they buy boats and and and planes and and and and they come up with philanthropic causes and buildings on which to stick their names. and and um in Leon Black's case, he became the head of the board of MoMA and famous for a contemporary art collection and he has an astronomical I mean I think six 16 billion dollars of wealth >> 18 now >> 18 billion okay and >> who's counting >> right and but and life was going pretty well for Leon Black until Jeffrey Epstein died and it emerged that Leon and you know Apollo was a public company and it emerged that Leon Black's dealings with Jeffrey Epstein had been far more extensive than anyone had known and do you want to take you know so walk us through Bill what what happened next and yes Maria Adelman I I completely agree with your point of you these awful men and women too. Not a shred of ethics, humanity or values. Um, so you know this is this is not a nice this is not a book about nice or decent people even in the bit the bits that I have read. So they have they have other qualities. Ruthless being being the the number. >> Well, you know, Leon was once on the since I'm in the Bloomberg building, Leon was uh in in January of 2020, I think is on the cover of Bloomberg Business Week, a photograph of him uh taken by Richard Avdon grandson, I believe Michael Avdon. Uh, and there's a picture of him in black and white with one word on the cover, ruthless. So, um, Leon told me he didn't really like that cover, but, you know, uh, it doesn't make him my big feared person on Wall Street, which is probably a good thing for the deal business. Uh, so you're right. I mean, he by the time uh Jeffrey Epstein died, either willingly or unwillingly, uh uh uh Leon's relationship with him was over. Uh but no one really knew the extent of it. Obviously, he knew and some few other people knew, but we generally did not know. It was not known on Wall Street. Um that began to change uh in 2020 uh probably a year after uh Epstein committed suicide if he did. Uh when the New York Times reported that Leon uh had paid Epstein between 50 and $75 million, which of course was low because it turned out to be 158 million. Some people even say 170 million. Let's just stick with 158. And that's before you get to a loan, right? Of 35. >> No, that the 170 includes that includes that he didn't pay back. I don't know why people are like so hung up on this loan thing, but whatever. Um so uh and of course that was low uh but nevertheless like outrageous like people couldn't understand how it could possibly be that Leon Black who's like the ruthless toughest negotiator on Wall Street can pay this you know guy who didn't graduate high school or college uh who was an autodidact you know 50 to 75 million for tax in the advice and so that really got everybody quite rattled. Uh it got his investors rattled. Uh so on the earnings call for like the third quarter of 2020, he got a lot of questions from Wall Street analysts or not a lot, he got a few questions from Wall Street analysts about this and what what about his relationship with with Epstein and he came up with some uh reason for why he had been associated with him. Uh but you know Glam view was all you know kind of above board uh you know which many people still feel find very hard to believe >> right >> uh that that led to sort of more questions uh over time which is why Leon asked the special committee of the board of Apollo to uh hire law firm and conduct an investigation of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein And of course, he told me that the reason he did that is because he knew he did nothing wrong. And he pointed out that no one else who's been involved with Jeffrey Epstein, none of your other friends, Mickey, who've been involved with Jeffrey Epstein, have asked for an investigation of their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Well, okay. Yes. But but but Bill, very importantly, >> other than Leslie Wexner, >> there is nobody else uh in that orbit who has funded Jeffrey Epstein >> to the to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars and and the money with, you know, and I've always said this about Epstein, >> without money, Epstein could never have pulled off the sex crimes. and the sex trafficking that that he did with the money. There's no evidence that before 1990 when Epstein out of nowhere suddenly acquired all this wealth and had all these sort of layers of protra protection. There is no evidence that he was able to pull any of this off that he committed any of this. So the money is critical and that and so yes Leon Black may be right but the only two sources of income of real >> Glen Dub Glen Dubin >> Glenn Dubin's wealth is not up in the hund what he contributed is not excuse me >> to the hundreds of millions of dollars. >> Well I mean that >> no but Glenn Dubin is extremely wealthy sold his business to JP Morgan. His wife was Jeffrey Epste's girlfriend. You're telling me he we know he they went on his plane. I mean >> no listen Glen Dubin is somebody else >> who's never been fully I don't see Glen Dubin asking JP Morgan Chase to investigate his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein >> and I don't see Leslie ex Rexner asking the limited to to uh uh investigate his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. So just you know I understand we >> keep there here >> and jump to conclusions. I understand this and listen I think that Leslie Wexner um needed to do something similar and as did as did Glen Dubin. Glenn Dubin arguably wasn't running a public company. Am I right in saying that at the time? But but I listen are these are these people who need to in my view stand up and tell the public the honest truth about their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Absolutely. So yes, but and I listen I take your point that there's Leon Black. I mean, I feel like he Okay, so he asked for an investigation. I think he probably had no choice with the after those questions on the earnings call, which I >> probably right. >> Yeah, he did do it. >> So, he gets the he gets this this investigation done by a firm called Desert, which is run by a former prosecutor called Andy Levander, who um you know, I know from my own >> I don't know if it was run by, but he was he was the guy who did the investig. Yeah. And I know from my own reporting that Andy Levanda is a considered a fairly straight up straightforward um by the book attorney. He is a former prosecutor and he is somebody who back in the day was involved in um legal work that Jeffrey Epstein was also involved in. I mean that it's a complicated story which I'll come to um which I'll come to in a bit but just for the sake of explaining to the audience kind of how this narrative goes Bill do you want to then so the desip report is published but that is not the end of it for Leon Black why >> no well not by a long shot but uh with the publication of the decard report as I call it maybe I don't know but it's decard um uh which let's be fair, uh, exonerated Leon of any criminal behavior. Did point out that he paid him $158 million and sort of outlined what he paid uh, him for. Uh, as part of that report, the issuance of that report in January of 2021, Leon said that he was going to uh resign as CEO or retire CEO at the end of June on his 70th birthday and that Mark Rowan would succeed him and that Leon would remain chairman of the Apollo board. Uh, and he he he was the largest he remains the largest single shareholder in Apollo too. So, >> but and let's just explain to again to the audience why after this report came out it was he felt he had to step down. That's because the number the amount of money that he'd paid Jeffrey Epstein was so staggering. >> Well, and I and I wrote a piece in Vandy that I uh right after that report came out that I was like dumbfounded that he could expect us to believe that you know it went for trust in estates uh work alone. I mean it does really defy logic but nevertheless that's Leon's story and he's sticking with it and it was basically ratified by Deckard. I don't know whether uh that's why he stepped down. I mean obviously uh if he didn't agree to step down or you know at the end of June 6 months later there would have been more blowback. Uh but I think he had by then he was turning 70. Uh I think he by then had resolved I know by then he had resolved that he wanted Mark Rowan to take over as CEO because the firm was becoming uh a big big player in private credit. They were going to merge with the theme which they had nurtured and then taken public and bought chunks of and then but they were going to buy the whole thing back and and for him to agree to do that uh for Paulo to do that Leon insisted that Mark become his successor CEO. So that was all lined up. Uh you know I think that would have happened regardless of whether uh there was a decade report and Leon had anything to do with Epstein. Uh but uh it it was announced at the same time and that was the plan and that was the plan. Uh that was going to be the plan. No problems. Uh everybody was sort of content with that. And then it turned out that Ganyva, the woman he had been having an off and on affair with, which had ended, and who had tried to extort him for $und00 million, and who he agreed to pay $21 million to over 15 years, and who had signed an NDA with Lyon as part of that agreement, decided to uh break her NDA and go public on Twitter with accusations against Lyon uh that were really ugly and horrific. It's true. And they were never proven and never uh you know, he was never accused of or never been convicted of anything related to that, which would have been criminal behavior. Um but in any event, it caused him to immediately decide to step down in March as CEO three months earlier and to leave >> and to leave the board. And she invoked Epstein's name in her no complaints. >> No, there was no mention. >> I mean later later in lawsuits, yes, but not in those original tweets. She just accused Leon of essentially raping her. >> Even though it was a consensual relationship and there were all sorts of texts about how lovey they were. and she had agreed to uh take 21 million from him and had taken nine and had you know another 13 or so pending before she blew it up. So in the book you get into the whole back and forth, the different, you know, that the he said, she said, and then, you know, and I and I think you referenced the fact that then two other women, the same law firm, um, Wigdor, you know, there were two more women and there have been and and the second woman who came forward, her case was dismissed. That was it settled or dismissed? >> No. No. No. None were settled. Gazelle's was thrown out >> and >> uh and and the second one Sher's was thrown out and the third one Jane Doe uh is about to be thrown out. So >> So the end, right? So when you >> So they're basically for three. >> So other than Gazelle Gva, do the other two have any non-disclosure agreements around them? Why would they have NDAs if their cases have been thrown out? >> Uh I don't know. All I know is that, you know, related to this comr thing where Leon uh was um subpoenaed to testify in front of the committee on September 3rd and he he chose not to appear and then sued the committee, which >> I can't remember uh another time when a uh individual sued a congressional committee. uh he he has his reasons uh because it involved these NDAs and he had already made public the Nuzelle DVA NDA because that was made public in various lawsuits. Yeah. He said as part of the settlement negotiations that he was engaging in >> uh with the committee before uh he he decided to sue them because negotiations went nowhere. He was going to turn over a second NDA. I don't know what that was related to. I don't know whether it was related to the second woman that sued him or Jane Doe. I I don't know. We don't have any I don't have any knowledge of what that was all about. Or maybe it was another woman. I don't know. >> Well, let me just All right. Like try to unpack some of this. And I have questions for you. >> Yeah. So, one of the things the huge question um that I've raised again and again and I've had Holly Peterson has come on here and you know that who is obviously another journalist but she's also very very wealthy. Um and >> I know Holly. >> Yes. And so, you know, she puzzled aloud as to, you know, why anyone uh in her and Leon Black's wealth bracket would need to pay whether it's 158 or $170 million for tax advice. And when I read, you know, the pages in your book where you get to this, you you ask him and say, you try and really drill down and say, "What was this specific thing that you did that or that Epstein did for you that was that was worth this amount of money?" And as far as I can tell, he he he ducks the question. He says that that would be in telling to tell you that would be an invasion of my kids, my family's privacy. And I'm like, >> well, that's not completely true. >> Go on. >> Let me um what what he said that about was when I asked him to give me the documents. >> Yeah. >> The revised trust documents. he he's willing to tell me uh or uh also point me in the direction of the right people to interview which I did who could tell me exactly what Epstein did and they did tell me that and that is in the book. He he only drew the line and this is the only place he ever drew the line was when I actually asked him to give me the actually revised documents which I've seen but don't have in my possession. Uh when he said well I don't want Yeah. you you said essentially you can get that on your own. I don't want to give that to you because that will be an invasion of my children's privacy and I can understand that. >> Well, so all right, but so let's just walk through. >> He's a private citizen. His kids are private. Well, I mean he's going to give a journalist to >> trust in estates documents. Well, he he he is a private citizen. He's also listen, he is a private citizen, but he's also found himself, you know, tied up in, you know, arguably w with the guy who perpetrated arguably the most horrific crimes that we have seen in this last in the last century. So, you know, >> you can. >> So, >> but he hasn't he says he wasn't involved in those crimes. Sort of, of course, does everybody. Yeah, but >> has any association with him and I know he paid 158 million. I mean look >> well so Bill but but so all right but look and I have I I will go back and read your book you know really thoroughly and carefully and we can get into it but on from my first read my basic understanding of what he's telling you and what you went and corroborated with various law firms is that he had he got some tax attorney called Coralin at Wild Gotel who screwed up. Okay. I'm assuming he paid Carlin millions of dollars for her services and somehow >> this woman and I wasn't clear. Did Epstein introduce him to this woman? >> No. No. >> Everything's gotten so convoluted, >> right? >> You know, Epstein did not introduce He, you know, he does what rich people do on Wall Street. I need taxing estate advice. I'm going to go to the person who I consider to be the best, who I've heard is the best reputationally. So, he went to this partner, Wild Gotch. She did the documents >> and she wouldn't speak to you, right? >> No, she would not speak to me. She's not there anymore. She's now at a different law firm. Uh uh you know, uh Andy Leander at uh Decard wouldn't talk to me either. um uh which I frankly didn't understand but uh you know so be it. I don't have subpoena power but so somehow uh you know as they as these grats were getting ready to be uh expire after whatever 5 years for some reason I don't know why and they needed to be reddrafted or redone or issued again. uh he he he realized she realized that there was quite a mistake and and that he was going to be subject I think it was estate was like 5 billion at that point he was going to be subject to potentially a $2 billion tax hit now I don't understand how somebody who's like the expert in the field could possibly do that but she wouldn't talk to me so I just had to rely on what Leon and uh some other attorneys told me so uh it at least strikes me as quite surprising ing that a mistake was made but okay fine a mistake was made this it's not like I mean and you cover the world of financeers bill it's not like you hear this every day right >> you you never hear this >> Andrea you didn't hear you know Michelle David Davin White you weren't hearing that their their their tax attorney screwed up and >> no but but it is akin Vicki it is akin to when Jamie Diamond blamed Wtel Lipton for making for screwing up the contract with Bear Sterns and causing JP Morgan to increase its offer for Bear Sterns from $2 to $10 a share. You know, fivefold increase, blaming Wtel for screwing up the drafting of the merger agreement, which I find really hard to believe, too. So, um, you know, occasionally I guess lawyers screw things up at the highest level. >> Think about think about it. I mean, if he had really start stood to lose $2 billion because of a drafting error, wouldn't you sue the lawyers? I mean, you really I mean, >> well, I mean, first you would try >> I think first what you would try to do before you sue the law firm is try to solve it. >> I mean, I I'm just speaking practically here for a minute. You know, you try to solve it. So he goes to a bunch of other law firms and he tries to solve it. Uh what can be done? How can we reddraft these documents so we don't have this $2 billion tax liability? And basically no one else could come up with a solution. So then again, maybe this is all fiction, Vicki. I don't know. Maybe that's maybe the documents weren't screwed up. Maybe this is all a complete fiction. >> But did but you but Bill, you're very smart. Did you you went and talked to a bunch of highlevel tax attorneys and I did and what did they tell you? >> Okay. So then what he did was she said, "Okay, Jeffrey, Jeffrey, how about you take a look at it because you're like an auto died. You work with families. You you represented to me that you have a tax and estate knowledge and work with families uh of rich families to help them with their tax and estate work." Okay. So, uh, he was also on, uh, Leon's family foundation board, which I thought was a crazy thing for Leon to do. So, he says, uh, Jeffrey says to him, "Send me the documents and so I can review them." So, he sends him the documents. Jeffrey reviews it. He doesn't have tax and estate expertise, but he did have sort of an insight into how the documents could be changed without a penalty. And this goes to what I call the miracle consideration which is essentially as I understand it as best as I can figure it out uh Leon for whatever reason which I don't understand again this could all be fiction uh Vicki which you know is very hard to verify uh that uh he had gotten something like $400 million in extra dividends on his Apollo stock that he technically wasn't entitled to that he had been paid and so Epstein say hey Leon give that 400 million up and that'll be the consideration for reddrafting these documents so you can avoid a $2 billion tax penalty. So that's what happened. He vetted it then through all these other attorneys, many of whom I spoke to and who verified that that's what happened. And then I saw the reddrafted documents and they were sent they were reddrafted and he never paid a $2 billion tax and it's never been questioned by the IRS. No, it's never been questioned by the IRS. And then as a result of that, he had contractually agreed to pay Epstein like uh uh you know $40 million for that and he paid him. It was like an M&A advice. And then over time, let me just finish. Over time to get to the 158, Epstein weedled his way into uh advising Leon on buying airplanes and buying art and buying ships and buying yachts on a tax efficient basis and giving him advice for how screwed up his family office was. Allesium and as a result of all that, you know, Leon had paid him $158 million. And I said, "Leon, how could you possibly pay this guy $158 million? You're Leon Black. You're the most ruthless negotiator on Wall Street. How could you possibly pay this guy $158 million? He Well, first of all, he said he didn't realize that that's how much he had paid until he until the Decker people had dug it out. And he, you know, and I said, "Oh, come on, Leon. That's crazy." Yes, I know you think that's crazy, Bill, but I own 93 million Apollo shares. So, the stock goes up a dollar, that's $93 million. Uh, if it goes up a $150, that's $150 million. So, that's, you know, I didn't think about it. I know you you think it's crazy and I don't blame you for thinking it's crazy, but uh you know he he weled his way into my life. I probably shouldn't have let him uh but he did and you know he was relentless and he would had verbal diarrhea and these emails and he was going on and on trying to get me to pay even more money and he also told me that uh you know his fees would be taxdeductible and I believed him and again I'm thinking how could Leon Black make that mistake. So he thought he was paying with $60. It turned out he was paying with hundred cent dollars and then you know when it got too much in like 2017 he he fired him. So >> well >> that's his story. >> I understand and if you believe his story shame on anyone who decides to put their money with this man because he's really stupid. I mean that's the that's that's >> he's not really stupid. Vicki people have blind spots. >> Well okay. He says my blind spot was technology. My blind spot was, you know, uh trusting estates work and tax things. >> Well, yeah, but you're right. Just >> do you have you have trust documents, I'm sure, with your family. Do you understand even what you've done? >> Well, >> no, of course not. I don't either. >> Well, so all right, but to push back, but all right, just to take one thing though, >> you know, why would you let if you were Leon Black, he does totally understand art purchases. Why would you put Jeffrey Epstein in the middle of >> because he understands he he understands how to buy he knows what he likes. He understands how to buy art. He can negotiate for the art. But he may but you know again he had Jeffrey Epstein help him uh structure the deals in a taxefficient way. You know he says I'm not good at that. I I'm very good at doing deals. I'm very good with clients. I'm not good at tax. And you know what? Tax is a very esoteric thing. It may it may seem like nothing to you, but I spent, you know, 20 years working on Wall Street. Tax is extreme. And I'm not I hate being in a position, by the way, to to try to defend, you know, Leon Black, but I'm trying to be really fair here because everybody thinks they know what happened here, and everybody has jumped to the conclusion and there's no space for anything but this horrific conclusion about this guy. Well, I don't know what the hor horrific >> Yes, you do. I have a No, I have >> You know exactly what I'm talking about and so does everybody else listening to this call. >> Nobody can believe that he paid 158 million for tax and estate advice. It must have been a must have been blackmail, must have been covering up. It must have been young women, you know, must have been all these horrible things. >> I never thought it was Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I'm going to push back on that. I have always had enormous questions about why Leon played the money and why and why Leslie Waxner paid Jeffrey Epste and I and I have I have I have always wondered and I think not unreasonably what on earth a guy who wasn't a trained account who wasn't a trained accountant who wasn't a trained lawyer who didn't graduate college could know about >> better than anyone you you know that he he had these skills you know this you covered him more than anybody this is not a surprise to you. >> I think that Jeffrey Epstein was a bullshitter par excellence. I think and I what I know less about is his I know less about his numeric. >> He Okay, we can stipulate he was a bullshitter for excellence. He was a creep and a criminal and he treated women horrifically. He may also have known something about tax structuring evidence that he did. >> But Bill scary, I KNOW IT'S LIKE LOGIC. BUT I WELL BECAUSE I also think and you get to this in the book and so my suspicion or question mark here is funny enough I never thought that um if you were Leon Black. Yeah. I never thought 160 million would be paid for you women. I in my my the question >> was about you know and you get into this was I do think Jeffrey Epstein was involved in some illegal financial activity and and you touch on this when you mention that the person Skip Stein who I know who introduced Epstein to Leon Black in the 1990s Skip Stein tells you that he suspects Ed that Epstein's money >> his first money >> he basically stole it. >> That's right. That's correct. >> That is what Skip told me. >> So therefore, so here's my question and I would ask Leon Black who I ran into >> uh on Saturday. Um and I did mention that I was >> I thought yes, I walked through the door. It was it was an awkward situation. I'm not going to lie. Um, but I said I was >> I would have loved to have been there to see that. >> Yes, I'm sure you would. Um, and uh but but so my question >> um was if you know that this guy's money is basically based on theft, why is he the guy you go to to to get your tax advice? I mean, you know, out of the frying pan into the fire question. May I answer? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, I I don't know whether Leon knew uh that Escape Sign told me that he stole his money uh from, you know, his clients, you know, early on in the '9s. I don't know if Leon knew that. I mean, Skip told me that. I didn't say to Leon, "Did you know that uh Skip Science stole its money?" That's Skip I mean that that Epstein stole his money. that it's theory of the case. As I told you, he was on the board of the Stanley Foundation. He he he told me he had told me that um uh Jeffrey told him that uh he worked with family offices, other very wealthy people on their tax and estate issues. And he also told me that when he asked Jeffrey to tell him who those those people were, he said, "I can't tell you because the privacy is." So Leon decided to like take him at his word, he enjoyed his company. He enjoyed the people that he introduced him to. Yeah, you can question that. >> You're more entitled to do that. He put him on the board of his family foundation, which I thought was a rather intimate act for somebody he didn't know particularly well. And and I think that would have been the end of it except that when he found himself confronted with this $2 billion potential tax liability and he went to all these other fancy Wall Street attorneys and they couldn't help him, including the woman who made supposedly made the mistake. He, you know, threw a Hail Mary to Jeffrey Epstein. >> That's a story. I don't know whether it's believable. >> Well, and also and also let's look at the timing though, Bill, because because the time that he does this, right, is after Jeffrey Epstein has been convicted and is a convicted sex offender. And yes, I I I read your book. >> And you you know what he said about that? I asked him about that. He said, "Yes, yes, I believe in second chances. I gave Martha Stewart, my friend, a second chance. I gave Al Falman, my friend, a second chance. I gave Sam Waxel, my friend, a second chance." different crimes >> crimes nonetheless for which they went to prison and Epstein didn't even go to prison as we know >> he finagled quite a lenient >> penalty >> so let me let me pull back >> Bill and ask you this I mean I I hear I I know you you know you don't like being put in the position to having to defend and Leon Black. But on but but on the other hand, you are taking >> I did write a book about him. >> You were you did >> I did write this book. >> You did you did write this book. Let me let me let me ask you this. What do you make of Leon Black? You've now spent time with him. He's opened up to you. Do you do you believe that he is this vulnerable, naive person with poor judgment of character? Okay, he's not naive. He's not vulnerable. Did he display some poor personal judgment without question? I mean, he can't deny that. That's just a fact. Is he uh, you know, an expert dealmaker uh, brilliant? Did he create this firm with now that has a trillion dollars of assets under management? Did he create, you know, multiple billionaires, including himself? Yes, he did. Uh he did he did do that. He's uh as he said life is complicated. He's a complicated person. He also was a philosophy major at Dartmaker who wrote a incredible thesis about the use of masks in in in art in literature and in fact you know he he could have it could be a metaphor for his whole life that thesis that he wrote. Um and uh his father committed suicide when he in his second year of Harvard Business School. Obviously that had a big impact on him and his career path because he wasn't going to go into finance until he realized that he had to be the bread winner for his family because his mother was an artist and his sister was a teacher. So I mean um you know he's he's a complicated guy. I think he's shy. He's misunderstood. He's reviled in some circles and admired in others. Uh he has made a lot of mistakes that are questions in judgment and and you know the worst thing you can say about somebody on Wall Street is they have poor judgment and he doesn't have poor judgment in business but in his personal life he has made a bit of a hash of it to put it mildly. Well, and and I think with Steve Schwarzman on on this joining this conversation, he would say that judgment about people is judgment in business. I mean, you know, >> but he did surround himself with good people in business and and he made a very successful firm where he failed is, you know, he had numerous affairs. Uh so, you know, uh that's frowned upon, shall we say? Maybe not in Europe, but frown upon here and but still yet it happens all the time and he made a severe questionable error in judgment by hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein. There's no question about that. So where do we go? >> And then there's no way to reconcile that just like anybody who uh was uh uh associated with Jeffrey Epstein. He's basically been you know uh cancelled by association whether it's you know Kathy Rumbler or uh or or Bill Gates or Prince Andrew or Larry Summers you know anyone who like this is like the third rail. Anybody that got near it got totally electrocuted, including Leon. >> Well, what? So, why does Leon not like sit down with you or with >> Well, he did sit down with me repeatedly. I mean, you mean like Well, >> on TV. >> Yeah. >> Well, >> why not sit there? Why not sit there and say, you know, I made a mistake? >> Oh, he's I think he has said that. He said many times that he repeatedly re look through it. I included several of them in I mean nobody believes it. That's the thing. It's like this. What can he do to get the kind of redemption that he's seeking? I I don't know what to I don't know how to answer that question. He can't get like a pardon from Trump because he's not been convicted of any crime or or serve time in prison like Mike Milin. Everybody loves Mike Milin now. Everybody hates Leon Black. Mike Milin plead guilty to a crime and went to prison. Leon has just been associated with Jeffrey Epstein and it's like can't get the stink off of him. And maybe that's fair. I don't know. >> Well, maybe he could take $170 million and think of something given that apparently it's so easy for him to make it. He could he could >> he's given he's given billions away. >> Yeah. But he could do it. Give give something to >> He told me that he's got a billion dollars. He told me he's got a billion dollars um in his foundation that he can't give away because people don't want to take the money from him. Maybe he should give give 500 million to >> victims organizations for sex crimes sex traffs. You should have suggested that. Unfortunately, I was muzzled by um Um Well, look, Bill is I mean, >> it's damn interesting, Vicki. It's damn interesting as you know better than anyone and we may never get to the end of this. >> I feel like, you know, you and I have been doing what we do for a very long time and it's interesting. I feel like we are entering a new cultural moment where I think there is much less of a fascination with people like Leon Black who've made, you know, old-fashioned capitalists and I feel like we are entering a moment where people are not even very interested in somebody who's, you know, been able to make all this money. And I feel like, you know, I just, you know, I mean, I, you know, I, you know, I've written financial books, profiles of bankers on Wall Street. You, you know, and I feel like we are just at a different moment in the culture right now where people want to see more from people who make money. They they they, you know, >> Yes, they do. And we created this we created this group of people who have insulated themselves. Tom Wolf wrote in Bonfire of the Vanities insulate insulate insulate. This is insulation on steroids. Leon is completely insulated. Mark Josh they're all insulated to say nothing of all the people on the Bloomberg I'm sitting at Bloomberg Bloomberg 500 billionaires list right they're all insulated. They can get in their private jets. They can go to their secluded mansions. They can get in their yachts. They can hire the best lawyers. I mean, it's relentless. They There's, you know, very little accountability for these people. >> Yeah. Because they I think they goes to the top. It goes to the Oval Office. It's this crap goes to the very top of our society. And I think there's going to be a huge backlash. I agree with you. >> I do. I I do think that. Um, having said all of that, Bill, you are a very very talented journalist and the book is told in a in a in a very riveting um, way and I will be um, going back to the beginning now. Um, and I and I'd love to talk to you about the the >> Yeah, we can do the more the more businessy the credit Leona what happened United Brands to the to the father. I think it's all it is, you know, it's an interesting business story. Um um but I did want to get you on. I'm sorry for giving you a bit of a hard time. >> No. No. Hey, I'd like to interview you about Jeffrey. Well, I you know there are things that you know for example you talk about the fact that Leon was so uh in you know he was impressed that Jeffrey Epstein talked about being on the Rockefeller University board and knowing that well you know if you had asked me about it I would have told you that Jeffrey Epstein was fired from the Rockefeller University board. Why? because they discovered that he was using it as a as a um platform to try to invagle his way into um the melon bunny melon and and manage her money and they put an end to that very fast. >> He was a weasel. >> Yes. >> And that's like the least of his horrible crimes. >> Right. Which is why >> in every way, >> right? Which is why you you can't really blame me for wondering if his quote unquote tax advice was entirely above board because I mean he certainly talked about some tax schemes which I have heard of. I it's definitely not the one that was used by Leon Black. some tax avoidance schemes which were completely I mean there was one he he he recommended one idea he had a way people could avoid paying estate um inheritance tax was that he Jeffrey Epstein would provide he a woman basically you would you would marry a woman that Epstein provided consumate the marriage pass your the money your money to her divorce her she would then marry your son and And and yeah, I mean great. I mean, >> voila. >> Okay. >> Voila. >> All right. >> I'm sure at Sullivan and Cromwell, they don't they don't recommend that. >> They don't They don't recommend that. >> They don't recommend that. >> No, probably not. No. >> All right, Bill. >> All right. Well, to be Let's do this again. >> You can't wait. All right. Thank you. Take care. And I will post this later. Bye. >> Okay. Take care. Bye.