Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Biochar Show by Biochar Today. My name is John Webster. I am your host. Today we have with us the top experts from Davy Tree experts. These are the carbon program managers for Davy Tree. As you may know, Davy Tree is one of the longest term tree care companies out in North America. So, what I'm going to do without further hesitation, I'm going to introduce Brian and Noah and let's get talking trees. Everybody loves trees. So, Brian, tell us how you fell in love with trees. >> Sure. So, my name is Brian Borowitz. I went with Dave uh 34 years. So, I guess my love of trees happened when early on. My dad just kind of left me to handle the property when uh when he was working and I just fell in love with landscape and tree care when I was uh left to take care of the property because he would reward me when if the property was maintained then we got to do cool stuff on the weekend. So, I think that was where my my love of everything began. >> Yeah. So, I am Noah Pachzko. I've been with Dave for a couple years now, about two years. I fell into the the carbon grouping here with uh with Davey just kind of by chance coming on as an environmental specialist. I have a love for the environment, a passion for for for trying to help climate change and the environment and working here with biochar and the carbon crediting side of that. It's been been great. >> That's fantastic. I think what we want to do is go ahead and move into our discussion around urban resilience, tree survival, the circularity of these types of systems and kind of what it is. What was that draw that brought Davy tree into the biochar space? Let's start with you Brian. Yeah. So I would say the the big draw was actually I mean we have always had a an environmental mindset obviously caring for trees and and turf and landscape in general but really the big one of the big drivers was our biomass concern. We at one point were generating so much biomass in certain regions that the cost associated with moving that biomass to somewhere responsibly where it would be recycled was just becoming so cost prohibitive that we actually weren't into this business very much. But we we moved more towards a wood recycling mindset where we took that material and turned it into mulch products. So that was kind of the first generation for us is we would take that and recycle it which was great and try to repurpose that and resell it back into our clients and commercial properties circularity. So we were introduced to biochar by actually one of our technical leads of biochar. His name is Chris Fields Johnson. He came to Davey about 10 years ago and started introducing us as hey this is a different medium that we can use. is we can blend up these compost and create this this additionality product. It's got this carbon sweet sequestration thing. We should really start taking a look at it. And not that the mulch business or wood recycling business isn't good. It is. We're we're members of the mulch and soil council and and we probably always will be and we'll always have that that mindset. But when Chris introduced the biochar to us and we really saw how beneficial it was for the soil and the plant performance and the water holding and the microbial activity and really got us to understand why that was important to put that back into the soil and how we could take that and recycle that into a higher use. That's really where the where the the major shift came. But it really is business necessity because the tipping fees and the and the costs associated with some of this wood recycling really just started to put um a hamper into our business and our customers because you have to pass that on to the customer and so if you can reduce that that only helps everybody. So that's that's really how we came to it. >> Yeah. So that that operational perspective, the way that we need to reduce cost, I guess u one of the questions that I have for you is how much biomass is Davy Tree dealing with on a day-to-day basis? And and I I know you have a specific location where you're primarily operating with your pyrolyzer, but what type of biomass are you seeing in the local area that you are looking to process? as well as how much biomass are you dealing with at your national and global level? >> Yeah. So, I mean the the the reason that our our our biochar kil is located in the the greater Chicago region and the reason we have put that there is just the amount of offices we have there running running operations. But the majority of the biomass that comes in is usually urban forestry waste, chipped urban forestry waste. um we get that's been a challenge understanding how much biomass we actually have going through some data collections and and trying to get the the specifics on that's tough because you know we have crews going out there doing their job and you know we're not really measuring that as it comes in but we're measuring as it comes into the biochart process so yeah I mean we saw the tipping fees like Brian mentioned go down in that area but um across the country it's still you know we still have a large a large amount of biomass that we're still not doing anything with. That's why this Davey's starting to do and get into biochar is kind of just a show of like can we do this in one area and maybe move this out, spread it out to start even eliminating more and more biomass from landfills and instead of mulch maybe put into biochar. >> That's excellent. Have you looked at doing things like including the biochar in with mulch as well as your tree planting operations? Yeah, that's uh that's part of our process in terms of how we incorporate that into our sales process is you know we have thousands of arborists out there dealing with you know tens of thousands of customers on a daily basis. So part of that issue is how do we train them to incorporate that and and sell that into the care of that soil and the care of those trees and plants as they're going on their daily business. So that's that's going to be the first goal is to obviously try to help the the home team understand why that's important to apply those to our clients properties and really help our survivability. You know, one of the things we're learning is when we use these compost as well as the biochar mix that you know, we really don't get a lot of um mortality on on our plant material. It's it's so it really buys them an insurance piece when they are doing planting uh establishment that we just we just don't get any mortality very little. Whereas we can usually expect 30 to 40% on a on a large you know planting installation you knocking that down to easily less than 10 and that's that's a significant number you know for our customers and for our operations. >> Okay so that is significantly massive. There's all types of accounting that comes in with that. So, reduction in labor, reduction in fuel use, reduction in soil compaction. Wow. That is absolutely amazing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'd say and real quick, I'd say the other thing that that Dave is really going to lean into is in the past, you know, with existing plant material that's struggling, we're really good at diagnosing a sign or a symptom. So, we we usually get called in because something's not looking good. We're the doctors, right? We're the tree doctors. So, we we get called in, hey, this doesn't look good. This is not right. So, we're really good at diagnosing that and then putting together a prescription specifically for the outward sign or symptom. But now that we've got these the char and the compost, we can really lean into this idea of soil care and really start talking to our clients, whether it be residential or commercial, about starting with soil care and really increasing the organic matter in the soil and trying to boost that percentage to a an acceptable rate because that's typically why a lot of these issues are manifesting themselves because the soil is not great. So if we can sweeten that up and then do good by putting these carbon products in and lock up that carbon all the better. >> Yeah. So I guess I have a question about that and related to customer satisfaction are you in the areas where you are incorporating biochar into the planting strategies for tree turf and shrub because I know you deal with all those landscapes. What type of feedback are you getting in the customer satisfaction area? Well, it's interesting that a lot of our newer customers, the younger customers are almost automatically uh asking for it. They're already asking for what types of organic products do you guys use? Of course, carbon is organic, so we have to go through that explanation with them. But they're almost I wouldn't say demanding, but I think if they have a choice of one or the other, would they rather use a synthetic or a more natural or organic product, they're going to they're going to choose that. Some of our, you know, some folks that and and customers that maybe have done it the way they've always done it, they're not as concerned with that. They just really just want plan performance. So, it's just a little bit different of a mindset, but I would say the younger customer base is almost expecting it, saying, "Hey, you know, we're we want to work with a company that does that and that's where they're going to gravitate to." And and I don't think the price point really means as much to them. And I guess my best analogy of that is before Starbucks, who thought you would pay eight bucks for a coffee? I mean, it was like, you know, brown hot and plenty of it, you know, for 50 cents, you know, but when they came in and then they, you know, pretty much positioned themselves, it it it worked and and it's good coffee. I mean, so that's the other part. It's not that it's just um I say that's the other big part of Dave. We don't want to just do it because it's cool or although it is cool. Oh, is really cool and you're cool. I's cool. But it it's it's because it's the right thing to do and you could and there's science behind it when you really start looking at you know I know the USBI has a lot of information out there and folks have been using this and indigenous folks have been using this and old farming techniques have been using this for a long long time. So just kind of getting back to the basics which is awesome. >> Yeah. Uh, I guess I'll mimic that for other sections of the biochar industry across agriculture, tree green houses, things like that. We're we're seeing the more rapid and kind of intentional adoption by the the the upandcomers, the newer ones. But then, you know, when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, typically it all depends on what's on the bottom line, right? Depends on that. Where's that spreadsheet show us? Where does that spreadsheet show us? And so when we look at that, look back to your mortality rate that is amazing that that reduced mortality. I guess a question that I have is like when this pencils out is the reduction in truck rolls, staff time, replacement trees, is that taken into account towards your biochar operations? >> We'd like to say yes. >> Okay. But and I think that's part of the longer term plan is to is to do that accounting. But you know it's not that easy you know to account for that and and doing it responsibly right like we want to make sure when we put are putting data into these life cycle analysis and and and data collection that it it's it's actual and it's not just a you know like what I like to call just a swag a scientific wild guess you know it's like it's real. So we've here you know with our product and our process we're just focused so much on like producing like this is almost like an R&D at this point although we are selling stuff obviously to ourselves and outside of Davey into the commercial and and agriculture space you know we just wanted to can we do this you know and it's a lot harder than it appears you know the concept overall seems to be pretty easy to get your head around but it's it's pretty hard to do I mean it's do it day in day out. It's it's a it's a thing. It's there's a lot of moving parts. >> Yeah. And I think I think we'll see that drip through the company as as biochar starts to get used more and as this research and development project turns into, you know, typical operations once we're doing companywide accounting, DHC accounting. I think we'll see less fuel usage, less water usage, less pesticide usage. All those things are probably would would have a slow slow and steady decrease as as biochar is used more more in our our company. >> Yeah. A couple of questions based on the region you're located in. There's a number of known soil benefits when incorporating biochar. The water holding capacity, the microbial communities, maybe improving infiltration and respiration for that soil biology and the infiltration of oxygen and water, and then even some of the storm water concerns. I guess which of those factors are most common for you to go with in your region? Well, I you know those are all great, but I would say one of the biggest issues that we see in the urban landscape is compaction. When we see compaction, root systems do not do well. You can have all the biological activities you can have and you know do everything right, but man, that soil's compacted and biochar just does a really good job with keeping the soil loose along with those other things. So, I think we're really going to see where plant performance, whether it be turf all the way up to large trees, where that compaction is really alleviated. And if you don't have that compaction alleviated, they can't get any oxygen, let alone anything else. And they need to have as much oxygen as well as water. And so, I think that's where we're really going to see the biggest gain is that oxidization in the urban space for for landscape care. >> I guess I have a question. I'm not aware. Do you service municipal or other government contracts or is it primarily just residential and business? >> Yeah. Yeah, we do. I mean, we have local municipality contracts that we service all the way up to the the federal government. So, no one goes untouched. >> Yeah. Well, I guess I guess if there's a tree involved, you want to be there, right? So, that's fantastic. Have you looked or done any trials with things like the Stockholm tree pit methodology? And I know that that seems to have a lot of success in the urban environments. I also understand it involves a lot of extra labor and cost. So I know that can be a bit difficult to justify during your early days. Well, we've got a one of the big a very big trial. One of the things the building we're sitting in right now is Davy's science education employee development campus and we have a huge trial that Chris Fields Johnson and then one of our other key researchers Zayn Rodenbush. So we've got tree and shrub with Chris Chris Fields Johnson and we've got turf with Zayn doing a huge study here on our own which just started this year and uh we'll have a lot of good data come from that coming from that and then we're hoping to obviously engage Tara Lewandowski with USB. She's going to be coming up to help us uh you know really get some some really good data on the urban side and turf side. >> That's fantastic. Chris Chris has an excellent reputation. He's been doing the really serious trials and for I think well over a decade if I'm not incorrect. I guess let's talk about the nitty-gritty around building out that biochar facility. I know we've talked about the bottom line. I know we've talked about biomass management, but moving into the actual biochar production, that's next level. So, let's let's cover that for a minute. Who's going to talk first? Noah, you or Brian? >> Yeah, I can I can start on that having come in, you know, um when the biochar facility was already been constructed, but yeah, when I joined the biochar facility was was there uh the structure was built, the kil I believe was being delivered um possibly at that time. Looking back at all the other records and the data, you could see how Davey was just perfectly positioned to add that building right where an existing office is at in a location that supports both mulching operations and now bio operations. So going into that, obviously you look at how far trucks are going to be traveling to and from the location, the amount of space you have to to to dump the biomass, to chip the biomass, to to put in the the kil and make sure that we have room for growth potential. And all that has been built out over the last, you know, again, I've been here for two years. I think it's been going on for three or four years. So it's it's been incredible to see. And, you know, Brian can talk more about the real beginnings of that and and how that really came to be. >> Yeah. And I and I'd say one of the big drivers and I guess maybe one of the big things was that I would probably tell people if they're considering doing this, the number one thing that I would recommend that people really understand, again, sounds simple but is really important. Will you have a consistent supply of woody biomass to feed the machine? Because if if you don't have that consistent supply of material and then again maybe even have to pay for it and and even us I mean so people say well you have all that biomass you know you don't have to pay for it. We still have to pay for it. We still have to move it there. It's still there's still a cost associated with with moving that. I mean we like to say anytime you touch a cubic yard and we deal a lot in cubic yards not so much weight. when you touch a cubic yard of wood chips, it cost you eight bucks to move that even from one side of the yard to the other. So, there's a real cost. So, I would say the biggest thing is make sure you have that dialed in. And then the handling of that, you know, whatever system you go with, you still have to probably break it down in some way, shape, or form to get it to be utilized by the machine. and not really understanding that is where I see a lot of and I've watched this through the the industry over the last you know eight to nine years where everyone gets excited about the carbon side and the energy side and cost reduction and get all excited but it's like well man it's all about the biomass it's all about having a reliable access to the biomass so I that's what I say is number one for most people is make sure you have that Noah can probably speak to the operation side it just Yeah, >> it's it's a thing. >> Yeah. Keeping keeping consistent operation, having somebody who who has that level of expertise, not only on the data collection side, but the engineering side, the scientific side, it's it's so much diversity in that and our team's pretty small right now. So, it's been a challenge, but and especially, you know, us Davy headquarters being located in Kent, Biochar being located in Chicago, it's it's a challenge doing that virtually and sometimes popping in and out of there. >> Yeah. And I and I'd say again back to our team, I mean Nate Nate Khan, who's our operations manager on site there. I mean, I I just can't say enough about what he's been able to bring to the table to actually, you know, build that facility, get it running along with doing, you know, his basically another job. You know, most of our team has been doing a secondary job and then trying to do this. We are going to be, you know, this year in 2026, we're going to be really forming, you know, Nate's going to be 100% dedicated to this endeavor to really make it go the right way. You need to have that steady hand along with others. And it's, you know, it just really takes that commitment to to do that day in day out. And and so I don't think a lot of people understand that it's not just you can do a hobby thing and kind of do some stuff on a kill, but if you start talking about doing production, it's a it's a it's a whole different thing. So >> yeah, it turns into manufacturing honestly. And that's what we're looking at. We're going to be going that direction. That's what we're going to lean into and hopefully get to that point. Then you start talking about the carbon credit side which Noah and we've got a a consultant that's really helping us you know with that endeavor you know bios systems engineering link shoemaker you know solid guy solid PE in in the business and is just a really really become a really good ally and friend to us to help us through that to make sure we're not getting off track and we're staying where we need to be and you know and then back to the team leadership of Davey I mean you know they're patient with us which is great. Although we all like to make money quicker, our, you know, mantra from day one with Davey has been you do it right or not at all. So, we're we're doing it right, we're staying true to that, which has been around since the late 1800s. You know, that's our mantra and that's what we we stick with. So, it's it's nice to have that confidence from the top and then support and building as we as we go. And Mike Vinie, who's the head of our team, has just been awesome. you know, he's just really, you know, very organized and structured and let you do what you need to do and get things done. So, it's it's been uh it's been fun. A lot of fun, but challenging. Real quick, if I can hop in, um I owned and operated a commercial kilm for just a little over five years here in Salt Lake. I had kind of the same thing regarding the biomass and knowing that you have your inventory. Um, I had to buy wood from down the street because I found that if I was trying to bring in green waste, I'm guessing that you're dealing with all the time. The leaves, you don't want any leaves in there. You need to have it chipped to a certain size. And all of a sudden, you think, "Wow, that, you know, this pyrolyzer may cost x number of dollars." But then all the support mechanisms, the feed station, the storage, the bagging system, and the permitting, electrical, any other fuels that you might need, equipment, like you just run into thing after thing, and sometimes it's hard to it's hard to realize the the true investment. But what's what's cool about it is now we've gotten through this process and now we understand how to do the full buildup really starting to understand the carbon credit side and the carbon crediting side and what that's going to look like and understand what the registries look like. I could see where Davey would be well positioned and I that's going to be one of the things that I know I want to start lead like we could be a consultancy company not only for ourselves but for others out in the industry and I think that's a a real position we could be in because of all these challenges that we've dealt with. I mean, there's value there. And I think we could bring that to the table to to help others, you know, do this. And my mind goes to, you know, even if we just did a quick call, we could tell people pretty much right away whether or not they should even be doing it or not. And then if you did need support, I think we're going to be positioned to to really help people as a service, you know, as a as a service provider to them and just help come alongside them just like Link has and and help them through their journey. >> So, one of the things I want to point out is that you're identifying one of those critical pieces of our larger industry. You're identifying the fact that you're coming in, you're building the expertise and you will be helping to move biochar into infrastructure scale, right? We're talking about multi-point locations. We're talking about contracting, consultation, product and business development. You know, Paul Miles likes to say we're going from enthusiast to industry. And so I just I want to congratulate Davey for that long-term investment, that patient capital, understanding that biochar is generational investment, right? Because these trees last a long time and if you're including it as an amendment, this is a long-term generational investment. It only costs a few dollars per tree to plant. And then also the fact that biochar is so highly configurable. We can have the different biochars. We can have the different applications and just like you we can have the different production methodologies. I would like to ask real quick how did you well two-part question one is how did you convince upper level to look at this uh to justify and then beyond that how what were the steps to get to the the technical review of the different paralyzers and systems that were out there. I would say again another person that I haven't mentioned that is should be credited with this Jim Zwack who was part of the uh general manager at the time of the Davy Institute and has since moved into the Davyy resource group uh which is the the true consultancy arm for Davey. He was actually here at the institute at the time Mike and I were discussing should we even become part of this be a biochar producer. So Jim was really influential about looking at the various technologies, looking at who was out there and what we could do. So having that leadership at his position as well as Mike's and then really came down to kind of a a talk with with Pat Kovi, you know, directly about should we be moving into this type of thing and he was more than happy to pursue it as well as Greg Aa who's also in the mix. And so those guys were like, "Yeah, this is where, you know, we probably need to to belong. You know, we probably need to to do that." So we had to put together a business case, right? Hey, this is what we think the short term would look like. This is what we think the the medium looks like, and this is what we think the long term. And then, you know, those guys are really smart, too. I'm sure they went and looked at USBI and looked at the the biochar, what was going on, the chatter that was out there and the carbon, what was going on, and they're like, "Oh, wow. Maybe there is something here to this." So let's let's lean into this a little bit and let's let's get after it. So and that was kind of how it was sold. I mean almost like it's how it's been built. It has been by kind of committee and by you know collaboration internally. I also mentioned, you know, someone else, Jeff Cowen, who's part of was helped us with the mulch division in Chicago and he also kind of has a passion for wood recycling, you know, starting very early in firewood, now into mulch, and now into biochar. And he also has been very supportive of this because he was part of the Chicago operations and now since moved up as well within the organization. So, it's been very collaborative. So that's been great to see that. I think that's how that shows kind of the best of Davey is where we collaborate well in that in that space. Now what does it look like for the future? It's it's all up to us. You know, I think it's all up to us to have the technology that's going to come along. I mean, one of the big challenges that I see is that the technology of actually making the char is still fairly nent. I mean, we know how to do the kill batches and things like that, but on the commercial side, it's it's still kind of building. I mean, it's not as perfect as what you'd like to see. And some of these systems, you know, cost multi- millions of dollars to put in and you could still probably have the same issues where, well, this motor doesn't work and you're going to be down a month. And we and we've seen that in the space, right? But we're talking to some other folks in the marketplace that seem like they they understand that and are kind of having a different mindset of what the technology is going to look like and maybe not even have it where you're just purchasing this. It's it's a maybe the model's a little different how how it potentially looks to to have this technology come alongside producers and then really be a partner and then as the technology evolves almost like the iPhone, right? Hey, you got the iPhone one. Well, next generation comes out. Let's trade that thing in and now you're in two, right? So, you know that I think there's folks out there that are are thinking that way and that's kind of exciting to to see and hear that that's actually going to be a a thing. So, >> yeah. So, I noticed you walking around the floor at the USBI North American Biochart Conference in Minneapolis just what was that about two weeks ago? Yep. >> So, >> you're talking about the equipment. I think one of the things that I personally noticed is that we seem to have the transition right now. You know, like you said, the commercial pyrolyzer side seems to be like it's still working to catch up. One of the things that I noticed is that these producers are moving more from bespoke projects for the production of each of their systems into product. Right. Which which pyrolyzer did you choose? >> We went with the BET system. So the biomass engineering techniques system mainly because of what we saw out there. The big driver was we didn't have to change our biomass very much. We needed to take the wood chips in from pruning andor hazard removals, grind it once and put it in the machine. That was really and then the continuous feed. It wasn't a necessarily a batch. It was continuous for as much as we could. So those were probably the two big things along with the ability to harness some of the energy at some point obviously typically the credit but really just make our whole goal is making the char. And so that machine checked all the boxes that we saw. I mean we weren't big into you know doing batch stuff where you got to load a kettle or you know a kil and then you got to unload it again and it was just like oh my gosh it just was really rough. I think one of the things that I noticed is that, you know, I like the BETs. I like a lot. So, there's a lot of viralizers that I like out there both at the BET level and some of the more even more industrial side. The one message that BET did have that really resonated with me is the fact that they have uh domestic parts supply really like that, you know, cuz I hurt biochar jobs, but also the fact that the industry is coming in and saying, "We need to streamline this process. We know the parts. we can get it more to an assembly line that just brings in a tremendous level of trust and frankly a lot of opportunity for our industry. So I'm really looking forward to what they have what they have to offer >> you know and again not that you know some of the other units weren't you know worth looking at. I just you know when you start looking at some of the you know the really really big multi-million dollar machines it's tough it's tough to go to the higher ups and ask for you know four five or more million dollars to do that. It's that's it's that's a lot of money to ask for, you know, and I would say that because of Nate's um ingenuity and, you know, engineering and and being able to really kind of put this together, you know, inhouse. I mean, that was huge. And not have to outsource that that that specialty to put the building together. That was that was massive for us. >> Yeah. I you know you have a fantastic team and I know that we're going to get comments either on the YouTube channel or on follow-ups for podcast or direct emails and that is that folks are going to want to learn more from your support team. So I'm guessing at some point we'll have maybe we can get your your technical side in here and kind of do more of a deep dive onto that portion. Yeah, I think that would be good and we can get Chris to come in and really deal with on some of the nitty-gritty stuff um of the application side and what we're doing there, which would be which would be really really good. >> All right. Well, Noah, I think it's time to plus you and I talk for a little bit here. Brian is always fun to chat with, but Noah, I want to know more about the carbon credits. Can you give us your kind of what your perspective is on the sustainability goals? Yeah. So I mean the carbon crediting side of biochar was was a true can of worms to its deepest extent. U once you open that up you realize how much goes into the accounting of uh of just an entire biochar production site. everything from distance that a truck's traveling to the type of truck to you know the exact kind of biomass if you have that you know if that's being treated with any sort of any sort of pesticides or things like that things of that nature but specifically thinking about sustainability I mean carbon credits we know that they are being used a lot by major companies and corporations trying to decarbonize their their production and their their own company companywide initiative Davy Tree has sustainability goals. Nothing associated with carbon credits as of now, but this is really the first this is the first project that Davey's getting to that's true carbon sequestration, not carbon offsetting. So, it's a really exciting path that Davey's going down. And as Brian mentioned earlier, getting getting that wealth of knowledge from Link at Bios Engineering and trying to push into this, I think that Davey is setting themselves up to be somebody who can who can come in, take that call like like Brian said and understand, do you even have the capacity to measure all these things you need right now if you want to get into the carbon crediting side of that? >> Uh, in terms of the credits, what marketplace are you taking the credits to? I guess it's two-part question. What market are you taking those credits to? What are you hearing about retirements of any credits that you have? >> Yeah, retirements of our credits is something that we're not we're not looking at specifically right now. I think that that's something that personally I would love. I'd love to see Davey, you know, grab these credits, retire some, sell some. But Davey in general, we're looking to we're looking to sell these credits. We want to sell them to big corporations. We want to, you know, we want our name associated with this, that we're doing good out there in the environment that that, you know, large tech companies that want to get to carbon neutral by 2030, 2050, whatever their goals are, we want to be associated with that. We want to be a part of that. We want to show that we're making a difference and getting there in the best way and most sustainable way we can. >> Um, are you using any messaging around reducing the embodied carbon in your supply chains? like has that because I know you're talking about sustainability. I'm positive that that makes an impact, you know, both to some of the organizations and those younger customers we talked about earlier. Are you getting yourself a leg up by saying, "Look, we're the we're the first. We did this. We're helping you." Yeah, I think that's that's honestly that's a good question for us, too, because I don't think we've we've seen that enough yet. We're giving messaging what we're providing messaging that yes, biochar is and does sequester carbon. You know, being careful of not doing any greenwashing and saying that this bag of biochar is associated with the carbon credit. We want people to know that what they're doing is benefiting the environment and yes, it is sequestering carbon. We'd love to get into a place where we can we can sell bags of biochar and sell credits with them. You know, plant a tree, sequester carbon. You're doing you're doing all of it. >> Yeah. buy buy a credit or buy a fractional credit and >> feel good about it. >> Yeah. Real quick, one of the other teammates of our team, Karen Strub, she and and marketing team under Scott High, they're helping us make sure that we can put out defensible, solid information on the what can we say? What can we what can we really say so that we're not I hate to use the term greenwashing, but just making statements that aren't completely all the way through. So, they they they're cautious of that with us. to make sure we're doing it again doing it right or not at all and and making sure that you know we're saying the right things. >> Yeah. And that and thanks for sharing that. I mean that's a great point because we really do need to make sure that the element of trust is there and so what your team is doing is really fantastic. >> Real quick we saw that a lot on the on the living carbon side. Obviously everybody saw that >> and it just wasn't quite as defined and very nebulous and and we just don't want to make the same thing. And that's why we didn't really dive too deep into it because you know we have scientists here and we're like I don't know you know it's out there we but you know with with the biochar being durable you know carbon that's that's a game changer. I mean like there's a ton sitting right there and we're going to go put it in the ground. I mean that's just doesn't get any more solid than that. >> Durable generational investment. durable generational investment >> and doing it and doing it ethically is something that I think is incredibly important for Davey and the team. So >> that is so great to hear. I mean, you know, many cheers to Davey for sure. I know that when I travel, especially I take the airlines, usually when I come back, I take a couple of big bags of biochar and give it to a community garden, a research opportunity at a local university, things like that. The same ethics that you and your team have. So, you know, cheers to you. I guess the next thing I want to talk about is that market expansion. Brian, you you've touched on it a couple of times. At what point do you see that happening? Like getting to where you're installing another another facility or three. >> Yeah. Well, I kind of look at it in two ways. I kind of look at market expansion of the actual product. Like I still think there's a tremendous amount of work that we need to lean into on getting biochar to even be something that is just kind of a household name or utilized even with our own teams at Davey. Like I think we need to really you know lean into you know making it part of what we do uh just like mulch is. So I think there's still work to be done there. Once we have that, we'll have to probably be able to walk and chew gum at the same time because I even get I even got an email today from a a Davy teammate. When can we get this, you know, you this unit out here? You know, we're ready. And I think once we're really comfortable in the technology and utilizing it as a daily process, not a pro, you know, not a project. I think that's when we'll start spinning it out to other operations because we don't want that is one of the reasons why it's housed here in the Davy Institute, not in operations yet. It's not ready yet. I mean, everybody can see it, but it's just it's just not ready to to go out there. When that's going to happen, it'll depend a lot on the technology, you know, on on making sure that we know and that we can sell this material and use it and then we we sow enough sales. If we have enough sales of it, we could build a lot of these, you know. So that's when we'll really see if there's not just offtakes, but legitimately landing of the material in the ground, that's when I think we're going to see Davey really lean more into it. >> Yeah. I guess um so we're talking about access and adoption with that, right? And then of course the buyin. So we have the community, the tree buyer, the organizational, residential, municipal. Then Davey is run somewhat as a franchise. Correct. It has that feel, but we're we're owned by the employees. So, we're 100% owned by the employees. Now, every territory or district or branch, if you call them that, you know, they do have a manager that we, you know, entrust that they're running our business, but, you know, they don't have to pay a franchise fee or anything like that. >> Yeah, that's thanks for clarifying that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I guess Noah back to that access and adoption like what's what's your communication with those managers to increase their buyin, increase their awareness? Is it something that you're driving or is it something that the customers are driving? >> I think really the team's driving it and I feel like that's based on education. Getting a straight consistent communication and and message out to everyone internally at Davyy I think is the key to pushing biochar into the ground. You know Chris Phil Johnson he just did a training here at the institute the other day and you know you take a training like that and a presentation like that it's I can't see somebody looking at that and saying we don't want biochar. Um, so adopting it and just getting people to actually start using it and seeing the benefits of it. That's really what just that that's going to drive more people to to to just want it. Yeah. One of the things that we keep talking about is almost like a data, you know, we like to use kind of military terms, a little bit of a boot camp, getting really getting everybody aligned. And it's it's hard. You know, we're a large organization. You know, we're coast to coast in Canada, 12,000 some employees. We're like a large ocean liner. It's really hard to get everybody to the dinner table at the same time. You know, it's just hard to, you know, it takes a lot to do all that. So, it's just messaging, communication, boot camps, all these things. Just just it's just going to take time. >> Yeah. And you know what? You need to let me do a plug here because your website, right, your website actually has information about biochar on it. There are a lot of organizations that are implementing biochar, but they don't really give any of that outreach that information that's on the website and that you also have kind of a circular approach that's on the website between the soil health and the tree planting. So, I think that's really fantastic. I guess when you're talking about the training that Chris is offering, is it the type of thing where you're doing are you are you videotaping or not videotaping, but like are you recording these? Are you doing digital recordings? Is this something that gets passed around to managers and might we expect to see some of those trainings hit your website? >> Yeah, I mean they are they are being recorded and I know that they're shared internally with Davey. That external communication I'm sure is coming if not there already. But yeah, I mean I think that again just the awareness of of what's going on really at Davey and the the research going on really is going to lead to people seeing, you know, we're not sending this away to other universities to do this research. We're doing it right here in house with our own scientists, our own team. We can get get those numbers, get that data, and you know, plots, the trees, they're going to be right out back. So, >> yeah, >> that that's powerful. >> We we have an app that's internal. It's called Davy Connect, which you know, Pat has been, you know, working with, you know, the IT department and Greg Dykes on for a long time. Just that's our main tool to get information out there. So that that presentation will be out on Davy connect and anything with the institute internally everybody can see it just everybody's busy so there's always you know I I'm kind of old and old school so you know I tell a lot of our sales team and younger people don't ever forget the power of a phone call and and a conversation and so I think a lot of that's going to come to that as well as long as leveraging our technology right so I think the combination of that personal touch with the technology that that's kind of the secret sauce of Davey. It really is. We sell through relationships. That's just what we do. You know, people can go to Amazon and have that kind of relationship, you know, I guess. And not to say that we would never do that. I mean, I never say never, but you know, we sell through relationships. So that, you know, having that, you know, device to be able to do that and then nudging with phone calls andor, you know, emails and texts, that's that's how we're going to get the message out. >> Yeah. I'm kind of guessing that after this hits the hits the public, you might start getting some phone calls asking about, hey, how do I get a five gallon bag? U do you know if do and and I mean that's a that's realistic. I mean, you have such a trusted brand. Absolutely. You could build this ju just a really beautiful consumer grade tree planting material. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, I would buy it. So, yeah, >> I even make my own blend. >> Yeah. Right. Well, that's that's the beautiful part about it. It's so versatile. And, you know, that's where you know, the thing I'll mention real quick in in the industry, even within internally within the biochar world, just work together. You the more that we work together and the more we work to share and get this out there, the better off we're going to be. you know, been a little bit of a gold rush mentality the last, you know, eight or nine years I've been looking at it and it's kind of like, hey, there's enough in here for everybody. So it's just it's work to get it going and you know with what you're doing and appreciate everything you've done John over the you know 10 12 years and obviously USBI and now with Miles and Tara I mean their leadership I I just think we're really in a and not not to mention you know Tom Miles and Kathleen Draper and those folks they really I mean they really laid the foundation which was awesome and so now it's just constant evolution of working together. Yeah, you know, I'm really looking forward to what Terara's going to be able to bring to the industry with her addition to SBI, having that a focus and BMPs and then the fact that she's going to be helping you with the with the tree and tree turf and and shrub side. I mean, that whole thing right there that that house power, I'm guessing just your whole team, they're probably saying, "How do we use this?" You know, what's our practice? What's our practice? Give me the formula. I I need the sanity check. So that from your side and then that coming from groups like um USBI I know center for watershed protection and a lot of these uh larger organizations are also beginning to come out with BMPPS regarding implementation in landscape a lot of them with particular focus on trees. So I just I'm really looking forward to a lot of good Did you meet Taran Miles at the conference? >> I did. Um Noah was not able to come this year. He's he's making sure it's penned in for next. Yeah. But yeah, I was able to and I knew uh Tara just through email from her previous engagement with Scots. They're a large customer of Davey >> and so I kind of knew her that way, but that's the first time I met her in person and she's coming here on Thursday. So she's going to make the drive up here Thursday and we'll have her on the C campus here this week. So that's good. In terms of the application, because you're talking about the training, do you feel like you have to bring the managers in from the other locations and the regional locations to have them do the hands-on moving the shuttles or is it something that you feel like the video and a little bit of materials >> that I think that helps to get them started, but then we have a really good network. Davey is very fortunate again through the institute. We have technical adviserss that represent everyone regionally throughout the country. So, they can lean on those. That's really where we're helping to make sure that that consistent technical knowledge is being dispersed is through the technical advisors through the institute who Chris is kind of in charge of and Zayn and then with Dan Hearns at the top. So it's uh it's a nice way to get that out is through the technical advisors. They they do a great job. Yeah. And that's through videos and inerson in-house trainings. Again, they're regional. they stop by people's offices nationwide and show them show them how to apply it and bring a bag of bags >> bring them a little bring them a little bag and say check this out it's cool um >> uh you know I guess one of the things is that uh until recently I didn't realize how much work you were doing in turf in a previous episode we had a conversation with Christy Trip from the USDA ARS she runs the biochar atlas project and right at the end of the episode and if you haven't listened to it go back can listen to it. She talked about turf as being, you know, 83 to 85 million acres of turf in the United States. We look at that from two perspectives. One is people can be carbon heroes and installing biochar into their turf soils, but the other is that seems like a real fantastic opportunity for you. And I think uh Brian, that's why you'd mentioned Zane working for you. What are your thoughts on how big you can grow just that even that turf sector? Believe it or not, um, my background in in schooling is in forestry. So, I have a degree in forestry from Southern Illinois University. I'll give the salutis a plug there. But I started with Davey as a as a um lawn tech. It's funny story. The guy that was doing the lawn care guy quit. I was a low man on the tonal pole and they're like, "Here you go. Here's your new thing." So, I had I had to do it right or to get get it done, right? So I did, you know, some couple years on the on the old spreader and airator and cedar, which was great experience to have and, you know, but in turf, what's interesting is almost everyone's an expert in turf, including your your, you know, your homeowner, because it's so personal, you know, and I kind of look at like lawn care and your technician if you hiring a service and whatnot, kind of like your barber, like you have an intimate relationship with your lawn tech because it's it's you want it a certain way, right? So, there's a big opportunity. There's a connection there. And what I'm really passionate about is that we have an opportunity to move that space into more of a organ a true organic approach to lawn care, which will dramatically help, you know, our our leeching of of nitrates and phosphates and things like that. So, if we can help move that needle, that's what I'm really excited about is to move that way. You know, we are working with some folks to help us with some of that blending right now through some early phases of a biochar blended product and it's really good. I mean, it the early returns look really good. No phosphorus in the blend. And it's, you know, I think we can reduce the number of apps, get more in soil care, car care caring for the soils. I really like what Zayn's been able to put together in a very short period of time and we're going to be happy to share it when we can. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, you're such a trusted brand. You're literally known pretty much on a global basis. So, being able to leverage that position of trust to bring on turf healthcare effectively, it's a strong message, strong opportunity. can help you with that infrastructure level build out. So, and who knows, maybe in the future we'd even see it turn from Davy tree experts to Davy tree and turf experts. I know that wouldn't happen, but I thought >> that'd be tough. Yeah, that'd be a tough one. I mean, our commercial guys, God love them. I mean, they even say, you know, they they fight that moniker all the time because they're just like they're the commercial guys that handle a lot of turf and bed maintenance and they're like, "It's Davy Tree." I know. I know. It's one of those things, you know. Um, and that's that's legitimate. But the the other good thing I'm really excited about with that is we don't have to turn the switch on and off like overnight, right? Like we can we can lean into this over a long time. We don't have to tell people how what you've been doing is horrible. This can be incorporated just, you know, slowly over time and not have to just you don't have to just be one or the other. This is kind of like the hybrid approach. we can slowly start hybridizing this material in with our existing lawn care and turf care programs, which is great. >> Yeah. Um, and that slow gradual adoption and trust is one of the things that I've personally noticed with my biochar business is that I get people to start using it. First off, they're using it on a couple of trees and the trees degrade. They use it on the turf, does great. Their gardens, it does great. Next thing I know, they're telling their friends, they're telling their family, they're telling their boss. So it builds both the brand and the trust and the consumer base. So I think it's all just an issue of time. Plus when your customers are using it, they just once they get the concept of biochar or carbon soil carbon health, it feels good for them, right? They just feel good about using it. I think that's one thing that we have as an industry that others don't, right? We have that position of common sense. I mean, for me, when I first made some biochar and I held it in my hands, I was just like, "Wow, this has science. It has practicality. It's fun to make at the at the home level." And I mean, when I was running my Pyrolyzer, I absolutely loved it as well. I'm just like, "This is cool." But I also really like talking about it. So, I'm great. I'm so happy that I had this conversation with you today. One of the things that I want to ask you about is where what do you see coming in the next 12 months for Davey and for the larger industry? Yeah, I think initially I think even within hopefully within by the end of the year we're looking to get our first batch of carbon credits through PURO. So that has been a a definitely a heavy lift that the entire team's been a part of. But I think just ramping up production nationwide usage of biochar internally in Davey and just really that communication consistently marketing showing what we're doing always. We don't want to take that and leave us in the dark. We want we want a spotlight on us because we are small. It's it's development program. We're we're nurturing that right now. And then once we once we have that ability to expand and people already know that it's it's it's existing already. >> Yeah. I think the carbon credit thing, you know, what Noah's been able to do with with Link and Nate and team, it's just been incredible. I mean, just going just watching all those details is just amazing to get into that and have that available to go on the market. So I think, you know, to be able to sell those, which I don't think we're going to have a challenge doing, believe it or not. I think the biggest challenge there is just it's not big enough, right? So I think, you know, we're not going to have huge amounts available, but I think that's an advantage for us because we're kind of leaning into, hey, we're doing it right. There's more available and there's more scaling that we can do. And I don't think people really understand how much we could scale yet. So, I'm excited about positioning that in the next 12 months. Having Nate come on full-time onto our team. January one, really dialing a lot of the operational machine side things is going to be massive, you know, for us having that dedicated focus. And then I would say that really, you know, this getting like Nate's Noah was saying, really getting the team behind using the material in the next 12 months. And we're not going to say no to external sales. We certainly are going to look at that. You know, I'm looking at some a stuff which is kind of really interesting and you know that's great about the way the team structured. I kind of get to you know talk to those other things and help develop those other products. But that a side is really really intriguing because the specialty growers are really starting to understand how to use this in agriculture. They don't have to do it on a you know 5,000 acre scale. they can do it on a 40 acre scale or even a 10 acre scale or 5 acre scale and get really good results. You know, there's money that's starting to understand what that looks like and how to get into that. So, I I'm going to dabble in that probably in the next 12 months along with obviously helping the home team make sure that we're really leaning into what our core business is. >> And now that you mentioned that, I realized I forgot something that I felt was a key part of this conversation. Do you do you have your own nurseries for your trees and shrubs? We do we have a nursery just south in Worcester, Ohio here and they've been utilizing the material in some of their plantings. You know, Ricky Hansshaw is the manager of that and uh you know he almost all the trees that were planted here at the seed campus got a little pixie dust of of char which is great. So um you know they're they're starting to utilize it in their operation as well. We grow larger specimen trees, not so much just production, you know, one inch whips usually growing bigger trees. So, we're not a massive player in the the nursery, but not that we wouldn't be or couldn't be, but that's just not really been a core thing for us. >> Yeah. Well, I do know that like we talked about with supply chains earlier like um you know it would be interesting to to maybe sometime in the future understand if you could insist on the nursery folks that you buy from >> totally >> having them use biochar. I mean you know you're com you're clearly committed to decarbonization of your operations. So being able to rely on your upstream partners as well again real strong narrative real real fantastic. you know, you two are really fantastic carbon heroes, and I'm so glad we had this conversation today. I'd like Yeah. No. Uh, all right. So, what I'd like to do is let's let's get just kind of like the your closing thoughts and then then we'll wrap up and talk about a couple of things on the way out the door because I know I need to honor your time. >> Yeah, I'll start. Yeah. I mean, again, I think you you you made that point clear. Davey is definitely committed to to decarbonizing um operations and just providing that that that green space that that I think a lot of large companies are trying to do. folks. So my my focus and our team working to get you know reducing carbon emissions really benefiting the environment in a true ethical reasonable way that also works in line with Davey's business operations is something that is again super exciting and has the potential to be massive here on a nationwide scale maybe on a worldwide scale. We don't know. We don't know. We would love to get Davey's name out there as far as we can but >> yeah. >> Yeah. We're we're just looking to have a a better future really for the planet. >> Yeah. And I would say that, you know, just in closing, I mean, if you really look at Davey's values of what we what we stand for and this people, planet, purpose, and profit, you know, mentality um that that all can work together um to to to really drive business and drive environmental responsibility. That's what Davey's all about. uh and that we're we have the the con the commitment from the higherups just to say that it's okay to go do it, make it happen, have the trust, lean in. What do you need? Yeah, a little bit of poking every now and which is not bad either. Um to keep you sharp, but um you know really our values of Davey just really just shine through of what we're doing here with biochar. And so when you when you have that that's a that's pretty pretty powerful. That is powerful. And again, I want to celebrate Davey. You know, let's take this time to invite the listeners to learn more about Dave Tree by going to davey.com. You can see some of their biochar information that's available on the website. It's really fantastic to see how they're thinking about soils and they're hoping to have you, the end user, and think about soils and operations, anything from residential to municipal to government scale. looking at the generational opportunities to build us those big beautiful trees that we all love. Everybody loves trees. I mean, that's the best thing. And the fact that we have that whole circularity message, right? Davey's planting the tree, they're maintaining the tree, and then when they do the maintenance, that material goes back in to make the carbon that builds more healthy, happy trees. I mean, what's not to love, right? So, again, thank you so much. It's been a great episode of the Biochar Show. was produced by Biochart today. Just so everybody knows down in the comments and on the links on the website, we will have LinkedIn information for both Noah and Brian along with complimentary information related to their website and any other core objectives that they have to help move the industry forward. Noah, I want to say thank you. Brian, I want to say thank you. >> Thank you. >> That was that was a great episode. We'll talk again soon.