Just the ability to innovate a new material and to think what's possible. I think that's you know, that's where the work is and that's where I see, you know, my work continuing. Figuring out what's possible with these materials. Future is bright. >> Welcome to the Biochar Show, where we examine biochar as a highly configurable carbon material system engineered for resilience, durability, and scale across agriculture, industry, and the built environment. I'm your host, John Webster of gobiochar.com. And on today's episode, it sits at a critical intersection, where we explore biochar beyond soil amendment and into broader conversation about biochar carbon as a design material, systems input, and a pathway to decarbonizing entire value chains. Our guest is Bill Hildendorf, who's working at the convergence of production, education, and advanced materials. Bill operates across three domains: on-the-ground implementation through White Feather Farm, regional production through New York Carbon, and forward-looking material innovation through Echo Building Systems. His background in industrial design brings a different lens to this work, one that treats biochar not just as a byproduct, but as a highly configurable carbon platform. In this conversation, we move through the full stack, from plant cap systems and mid-scale production realities to grant-funded education networks to the economics of biochar, and ultimately into the emerging role of biochar carbon in insulation, filtration, and next-generation materials. I know you're going to enjoy this episode as much as I did recording it. Bill, thank you for joining us today. Really looking forward to a fantastic conversation. Let's go ahead and have you explain kind of a little bit of your background, but introduce yourself, please. >> Yeah. So, uh Bill Hilgendorf. And yeah, so uh Bill Hilgendorf. So, my my work with biochar really is in three parts. I have um One part is my education and research work, and that's through a nonprofit White Feather Farm, where I spend most of my days, uh where I am right now. Uh and then I also do some biochar sort of run a medium-scale biochar production facility called New York Carbon, and that is a partnership with the owner of the farm. And the third-generation lumber mill that's right next door adjacent to the farm. And the third thing is a startup that I'm working on, which is Eco Building Systems, and that is uh a biochar-enhanced material company. So, our goal with that is to decarbonize the built environment through rethinking and engineering uh new materials with biochar. >> Well, that's really cool. So, and I know that you have and have had an extensive design background. >> Yeah, I you know, it's interesting >> furniture? >> Yeah, furniture. I studied industrial design and then started a furniture design and manufacturing company out of Brooklyn, New York, and ran that for 20 years. And I think what's interesting, a little bit interesting about my approach to biochar is through that uh design thinking perspective and through the built environment. My furniture company we focused a lot on using recycled materials and finding materials and products at the end of their lifespan, and then through a design process or a manufacturing process, breathing new life into them, but also not forgetting where they came from, but telling the story of those materials often through the design uh the collections of furniture that we did. So, one of our most well-known collections was the Coney Island collections. After Hurricane Sandy hit New York City, tore up a lot of parts of the iconic boardwalk down in Coney Island, and they were just dumpstering big portions of that, and it was this beautiful ipe material out of South America that was on the boardwalk for over 60 years. And this was when that material was first started to be imported. It wasn't the sort of what we think of as the common ipe of today, which is this sort of monotone brown, but it was actually a collection of over 20 different species of South American hardwoods. And so, when we found that material, as we started to work, you know, mill it down, all these colors came out. And so, we built a collection around that, highlighting some of the iconic landmark structures of Coney Island. So, telling the story of that material through the the new designs. And really the the path of that through to biochar is interesting because I think through my whole education and early work as an entrepreneur and designer, I was very much obsessed with this idea of upcycling. So, finding materials, and New York City was the best place for that because space is such a premium, people throw out perfectly good things all the time. So, there was always, you know, incredible inspirational things, you know, from, you know, dumpsters full of, you know, giant columns of yellow heart pine, which is now pretty much extinct, coming out of buildings, or pieces of other pieces of furniture. Just inspiration was everywhere. You know, so, I also did a lot of work I always was interested in this idea of shou sugi ban, the Japanese finishing technique for siding, which is charred cedar. And so, I did a lot of work with wood, I did a lot of work with charring wood. And then, 2019, I did a trip to Gothenburg, Sweden with a friend of mine who was writing an article for GQ, cuz Gothenburg claimed to be the most sustainable city in the world at that point. So, we had 30 meetings in 5 days with everyone from manufacturing to food services to transportation to power. And just seeing all the things that they were doing to make the city more and more sustainable. And through that, I met with these two really cool guys who had taken over one of the abandoned docks in the harbor in Gothenburg and were growing They had a whole CSA that they had set up in these raised beds and hoop houses on this abandoned dock. And for a couple years, they were had gathered a group of over 100 people who were getting their vegetables from this urban farm. And they were utilizing biochar. They were making their own compost. They were getting biochar. They were working into the compost. And that was the first time I had heard about biochar. And that really like sort of a light went off. Although, you know, I have no background in soil or agriculture. So, it wasn't really something that stuck with me as a potential career until um I came back to New York and it was early 2020. I was meeting with a friend of mine um and his friend, who's a material scientist. And he told me again about biochar. He had done some work when he was a graduate student helping farmers in India instead of burning their crop waste to pyrolyze it and make For that, it was more of like a cooking smokeless cooking material. So, the ability because so many people still cook on open fires around the world to have a smokeless cooking fuel was a way to to help support health initiatives. And but for him, from his material science background, was like, you know, there's so much more that we could do with this material. You know, we're basically just reducing it to carbon. And you know, if you introduce different binders, you know, you can create a whole category of materials with the carbon as a base. And so, that was when, you know, the light really went off for me. And I had already been sort of discouraged with the direction my company company was going. You know, with investors and the sort of need to grow and grow. And we had pivoted to office furniture and really lost our roots as a narrative design company focusing on sustainability. So, I took that opportunity to step back from running it and just focus on biochar. And that was in 2020. So, for the last 6 years now, I've only focused on research and work around biochar. >> That's the rabbit hole, right? >> Yeah. >> You get in there, you get the introductions. At first, you're like, "I'm not sure what this is." And this is highly configurable carbon. Let's see what we can do with it, right? So, Totally. So, I guess your transition from design, how'd you How did you end up at the farm? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think as you said, you know, I started going down that rabbit hole. And at this point, even though my interest was still focused around materials, a lot of the economy and work in biochar was in soil and agriculture. So, actually through a very sort of random connection, I found out that just a half mile through the woods from my house was this mill that was had this large biochar a production machine, the carbonator. Um, you know, which I think at that point there was only maybe 14 of them in the country. Um, and obviously there's other technologies, but that seemed like more than just a coincidence to find this >> Yeah. >> good scale production. So, at that point, I just offered my services. I had, uh, you know, was still on payroll for my furniture company, so I had some flexibility in my work. And so, I just volunteered and helped learn how to run the machine and just tried to learn everything I could about biochar. You know, not only its uses but its production, um you know, the different feed stocks you could use, the different methods. Really at that point I was just being a sponge and trying to soak up any possible information I could and it was right there. So I just for a couple months I worked running that machine, helping running that machine, figuring out cuz they had just gotten it at the time. And um just figuring out how to optimize it and and uh how to make the most uh biochar that we could. >> Yeah, and is that the I know it's a Tiger Cat. Is that the 6040 carbonator? >> No, it's actually the 6050. It's the first one. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It was uh right shortly after Tiger Cat acquired ROI, which was the original manufacturer of it. And uh so we worked a lot directly with Matt O'Connor, who was the designer of it. >> Mhm. >> Figuring out how to best use it in our situation, which was milling, mostly using the the milling offcuts from the from the sawmill. But then also in our area the uh transfer stations were so overloaded with green waste coming out of the area that they stopped accepting it. So the mill, because they were set up to process that material, they would accept local green waste from homeowners and tree services. So that combined with the mill offcuts was our feed stock, which is primarily Eastern white pine that we were running in the machine. >> Yeah. Uh so when they take that green waste waste, are they getting a tipping fee? >> Yeah, they do get a tipping fee. Yeah. >> Okay. So that is definitely part of the business. >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah, you can't. >> So yeah, and so from from that, from my work with that, I I was introduced to the farm manager here at White Feather and they had been really interested uh it was always a partnership between the ownership of the farm and and the owners of the lumber mill. And they had been wanting to incorporate more biochar into the soil at the farm and because at that point I had been two years deep into biochar, and they hired me at first as a consultant to work on doing some just sort of basic research and integration of biochar and then more of as a full-time role as we took on some more grants and became part of the American Farmland Trust National Trial Breaking Down Barriers to to biochar adoption. And so yeah, that's how I became uh work began to work with the farm. >> A supporting sponsor of this program is Future Fresh Farms and their MicroRevive biological product line. >> >> Biochar provides the carbon, biology unlocks the potential. MicroRevive introduces beneficial microbes designed to work alongside biochar, helping support nutrient retention, root growth, and resilient living soils. Suitable for direct to soil, foliar, and controlled environment applications. MicroRevive is OMRI certified and registered for agricultural use in all states. MicroRevive, regenerating soils to feed the future. Learn more at futurefreshfarms.com. The biochar industry is growing fast. Connect with the people, projects, technologies, and ideas shaping its future at the North American Biochar Conference. Learn more, register, or become a sponsor at biocharconference.com. Okay, so when I hear American Farmland Trust, I immediately start to think research and education. >> Yeah. >> So, is that is that kind of what you've been doing with >> Yeah. >> Yeah, no, that's a lot of that's definitely a lot of my work. And I think, you know, anyone who's started in biochar, you know, I think in the last 10 years, you've seen that progression. You know, when I first started talking about it, you know, I would tell my friends, "Hey, I'm working with biochar." And they'd be like, "I don't know what you're talking about." But in the last, you know, 5-6 years, now there's sort of this critical mass of people who have heard of it. Maybe they don't know exactly what it does. They haven't used it, but at least they know some basics. So, in that interim though, a lot of my work was about education and spreading the word and getting people sort of a basic understanding of it. So, at the farm, we did a lot of community engagement and events and stuff. So, I That was when I started working I sort of moved from that larger production scale to the flame cap kiln scale um where I could do these demonstrations with a uh um a sort of a smaller version of the the ring of fire. I use it It's called the char cone. It's a uh a sort of Weber size grill version of a Kon-Tiki. And it's a great educational model cuz I can do a burn in about 2 hours. It's very can be very hands-on. And it really helps people to understand the process. It's a great way to talk about I've always been someone who likes to work hands-on, not so much behind a computer. And of course, coming out of the pandemic, just to be able to get back together in person, wanted to take advantage of that. So, yeah, so a lot of of those sort of small demos I've done it with high school students, uh at garden clubs, you know, with um a lot of farmers. And then that sort of developed into the major grant that I'm working on, which is a 3-year grant with Northeast SARE, which is Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education. And that's a USDA-funded grant. That is the Biochar Learning Network is the name of that grant. And so, with that, I'm working with five other nonprofit farms and organizations in the Hudson Valley here in New York to focus on helping them These are all organizations that also have their own sort of educational programming. So, the idea is sort of the teach the teach the teachers program where I am providing kilns for each of these farms and then helping them learn how to run them and then with the idea of after 2 years a couple of demonstrations, they will be running their own kilns on farm, creating their own biochar, their own closed circular systems. >> That's fantastic. So, do you open burns there where you are in the Hudson Valley? >> Um, we do they do allow open burns. We're in the middle of a burn ban currently. Free March through May, they have a burn ban. And but you know, a lot of the work too that I do, some of the education is with local communities is, you know, trying to teach cuz everyone around here, you know, we live in pretty rural area, you know, they have a pretty big pile of sticks at the end of the winter when they do their lawn cleanup. And yeah, the most people, yeah, just want to want to burn that pile. So, I try to um, you know, one of my goals for my demonstrations is to at least let people know that there are ways to take this material and instead of just burning it down to ash, you can actually create a quite valuable material uh that can sequester carbon and be used for building soil. You know, a lot of people have their own gardens or even just their own plantings around their properties. So, it's a pretty easy sell >> Yeah. >> it's great to have a, you know, an open audience and to be able to explain their other options than just burning. >> Well, one of the things about the just burning concept, especially when you're doing the bush clearing, is that you get all that smoke. The residents, you know, you get used to it, but it doesn't mean you enjoy it. So, when you're teaching these flame cap processes, whether it's with the tiger cat doing it in form of thermal decomposition into the biochar or the ring of fire and the modified Kon-Tiki design that you're working with, when you teach them that there's the better way with benefit plus the knock-on benefit of less air pollution, it tends to set off some bells for folks. In fact, that ring of fire is now being sold throughout North America and even in some other markets by Tarter USA. And the messaging they have behind it is to reduce the your land-based materials. >> Yeah. >> Use it as a clean way to do it. It contains it. It's a burn in a bin. It makes it really safe, less less fugitive embers. I do want to take a minute to pitch the fact that biochar on site is a is a group of working practitioners that utilize flame cap processes. And on that at biocharonsite.org, if you go to resources, there are two fact sheets. One is on the biochar burn piles. So, it's biochar conservation burn pile. Tells you how to use simple techniques. You know, the Boy Scouts and other groups told us burn from the bottom. Now, we know if you burn from the top, you're >> Yes. >> uh processing those gases and reducing the amount of pollution. So, there's a fact sheet on that as well as the fact sheet on the uh ring of fire kiln and the use of that Well, actually, it's not on the ring of fire. It's on uh flame cap systems in general. And it's a great educational material. >> Yeah. >> So, uh And they And they have a month And Bill's been coming to this as well. We have a monthly meeting for biochar on site the first Wednesday of each month at noon Pacific. One of the things I do want to point out is that Bill is on a working farm. He's inside a greenhouse. And we've got some little friends and birds in the background. So, >> they just showed >> we love that, right? It's the connection between the two. Um I do kind of want to bounce back to the AFT and your uh any of your stuff. >> three kilns from Tarter. I haven't set them up, but for my grant, three of the farms that I'm working with will get a ring of fire kilns for their on-site use. So, full circle there. I'm coming around. >> That That really is. So, when you're doing that, have you tried doing the eight-panel setup where you got a couple extra panels >> yet. No, this is I only have my original a ring of fire kiln which I've run um a lot of times on its own. I haven't set up the multiple together yet. So, we'll see. That'll be a good opportunity this spring. >> Yeah, yeah. Um and for folks that aren't aware the ring of fire will do and similar will do, you know, you can process quite a bit of waste, but it's not significant tonnage where is that Tiger Cat carbonator, you know, they were originally designed to be combustion systems to reduce the biomass. >> Yeah. >> And now they have the output with biochar so that way they're doing both the larger reduction of biomass with some carbon output. So, it's really a way to take a a very useful tool and add additional benefit out the back end. So, and in the industry we address the things like the Tiger Cat as the mid-tech whereas uh you know, the flame cap kilns are kind of that entry level. >> Right. Yeah, now it it um the Tiger Cat can process up to 15 tons per hour. So, it really does process a lot. The yield is is not ideal and I can speak more >> to sort of >> Yeah, I think it's >> But uh it is like and then that's the reason I think that they got it originally was really just its ability to process a lot of material quite quickly. >> The reductions. Yeah. And um and they and so they were using that for both the green waste and their own needs, their own offcuts. >> Okay. So, yeah, so super practical. Plus they get the tipping fees so they have a whole business model. >> Yeah. >> But I did get distracted a little bit from the grants uh Northeast SARE and the American Farmland Trust. >> Yeah, so um the SARE the Northeast SARE grant, like I said, it's a 3-year grant um at the end I will do a booklet and a a website about the learnings, trying to basically help encourage that on-site biochar production. Um you know, cuz every time we make biochar, we move it somewhere else, sort of decreasing that benefit of the carbon sequestration by creating new emissions. So, ideally, you know, just from a logistics standpoint, to be able to make and process all your own material on land is the ideal scenario. And then work that right back into the soil. So, that's um that's the main part of that grant. And then the American Farmland Trust, that is a really an interesting program. We linked up with AFT early on when we did a fundraiser here at the farm for their um they were fundraising for small farms um helping small farms raise money to expand for machinery um in New York State. That was when we found out about the national trial and got involved in that. And it's been it's been a good program for us. We hosted a field day last year uh with about 50 people, local farmers, service providers, and biochar enthusiasts alike. And really, for that focused on our trial is quite small compared to a lot of the other trials in New York State, particularly. Uh the ones in New York State are more like 5 to uh 20 acres, I believe, the trial areas, where we're um you know, just four 60-ft beds, cuz we're a market farm. So, we don't have large-scale trials. But the What's interesting about the trial is it's coast to coast. So, um I think there's uh 12 states that are involved in it. So, in New York, um they're focusing on soy and corn production on a larger scale. But right next door in Massachusetts, they're doing a mixed vegetable trial. So, um even though we're in New York State, we're actually closer to some of the western Mass uh trials and more similar. We're also doing a mixed vegetable trial. So, it's really cool. It's a 5-year trial. So, we're collecting data. We have 1 year of data so far, uh, but we're collecting data for all 5 years. And we did extensive soil testing beforehand, not only in the the trial beds, but also, you know, other parts of the farm. We had uh, this really cool company called Earth Optics come around and they have a proprietary scanner that measures soil carbon throughout big swaths of the property. And they'll come back in 5 years and see sort of how our various interventions may have affected that, hopefully positively. So, it's yeah, it's nice to be part of a a large national trial. And American Farmland Trust just does such amazing work trying to support farmers, education around it. I mean, and with any new technology, I say new because we all know that the reason we're using biochar is from terra preta, you know, 2 to 3,000 years ago, uh, still showing positive results. But there's, uh, you know, a lot of education farmers. It's a risk when you try and do something new. And, uh, we need these on-farm multi-year trials to just sort of de-risk that for your average farmer, show them this stuff works. >> Yeah, um, the education's difficult even though this is ancient earth wisdom, right? It's on this earth spin spark biomass and oxygen. We've had natural carbon occurring and now we're bringing this to market on the industrial side, the commercial side. The education is a little difficult. I know that it's daunting. So, when we have groups like American Farmland Trust behind it, that really builds the credibility. In my own personal experience, I know that the new kid on the block always gets the blame. So, if they're trying biochar and something doesn't quite go right, blame the biochar. Blame the biochar cuz they're they're commonly used to different processes, you know, frankly heavy on the chemicals, you know, feed the root not the soil. I'll stay off that soapbox, but I am glad that we do have that new transition from chemical only to soil building practices with natural solutions. So, in terms of the Northeast SARE and AFT, the can you tell us about the grant application process? >> Yeah. >> How difficult was it? >> It is like I mean I guess I have to say we were fortunate at the time to have the resources to be able to hire a grant writer to help us with that process. You know, I directed and guided the sort of project and what made sense. I thought what made sense for us to do. But it does, you know, that it's very tedious. I mean we just had to renew because it's a USDA grant, we just had to renew our SAM registration, which is the, you know, any government grant you have to have this registrations. It's it's almost like they make it hard to discourage you from doing it. So, you really just got to stick with it. You know, if if you can find >> Persistence. >> If you can find someone who has experience navigating that side of the government grants, they're definitely still out there. I mean in this administration and climate, they're a little bit harder to find, but they're still there. We even had a couple or at least one 336 um NRCS 336 program that we got in the ground this past month, and which was actually my first one that has successfully happened. So, it's still it's still possible. I think it's a little bit more you got to be on top of it a little bit more, but it's still out there. So, it's good to see. >> Yeah. Well, I am encouraged because we had Kristine Trippe from USDA ARS on a previous episode. She runs the Biochar Atlas, and she's the one who told us that the the code 336 funding was still in full swing. So, but I do know that it has been difficult to find NRCS agents that are familiar with it cuz again, they have these big books of responsibilities and very very little support, which is another reason why they have this program called TSP, technical service providers, and I want to encourage anybody that's out there that's familiar in this field, please apply to become a TSP, consider getting your biochar certification. It's a great way to help restore carbon to our soils. Um All right. Well, it sounds like that wasn't too bad. It wasn't too easy, but it wasn't too bad. I know that the American Biochar Institute has some documentation on how to work with the NRCS, but let's talk about more about the business side with the New York Carbon and what what that transition part is and your responsibility. >> Yeah, totally. You know, New York Carbon um is uh really like although it's been around for a couple years, this past year that I've been focused solely on doing business development and and sales and product. We've really actually is the first year we started to move some product. It's quite I mean, the the industry right now is at an interesting moment because there's a lot more production coming online. Um and there's a lot of downward pressure on pricing, which you know, makes sense. If I wish I could supply every farmer who claims me and wanted biochar with it for free or at a very low cost. But in the end, it's quite expensive to produce. I mean, if it you know, takes us 10 tons of of material to make 1 ton of biochar, you're talking about moving around and processing a lot of material. So, I think, you know, what's interesting is there's there's enough there's still enough support, I think, from various philanthropic programs and grant funding that we can subsidize it somewhat to get the biochar in the ground, but I I do get a little bit nervous about our ability to really produce at scale in a sustainable business model. I think especially since a lot of the you were seeing some of the carbon credit the big supporters of that like Microsoft pull back a little bit with some of their CDR purchases. I think that in the long term that will be a necessary way to grow the industry, but right now I think we have to look to some other ways to keep you know being able to produce material and and get it into the ground or into other industries. >> terms of that yeah that downward pressure. I know that there are a lot of producers out there that rely on those carbon credits to offset the the market price. So because like you and I a lot of us get into this for the altruistic reasons, but then we have to come we come to that stark realization that that doesn't pay the mortgage that doesn't that doesn't move the market in any way. And one of the things that I'm really encouraged about even though we're seeing this downward pressure and price is that we see a predictable supply chain for carbon to these industries in particular to ag and now folks that are ag suppliers are saying, oh I can start building biochar into my product lines. Not necessarily selling it as biochar, but selling it as a carbon enhancement because they do it at a small fraction, but a small fraction on a large product line is a lot of biochar. >> Yeah, no and that's I think it's funny because it kind of although I've spent the bulk of my time the last 5 years like learning and working with soil and ag and farming, you know my original passion is still back there in thinking how this carbon can go into advanced materials and I think you're starting to see as, you know, some of these carbon credit business models look a little less stable, producers are more interested in exploring how they can get that carbon into other products and develop those other markets. And so, I think, you know, it's like anything, you know, one door closes, another one opens. And I think, you know, the the growth in the production of biochars is unstoppable in in a lot of ways. I think it's happening. But, I think some of these, especially larger scale producers, are going to have to start rethinking about exactly, you know, where their material goes. And I think off-take agreements and off-take commitments have always been sort of one of the weaker links in the model. And now, I think though, for me, I'm excited because I've been talking to a lot of regional producers, um you know, from Maine down to Pennsylvania in the Northeast, who are saying, "Hey, you know, we can't sell biochar for $100 a yard. It just doesn't it doesn't make sense or less than that. Else, you know, are the options out there?" And then we start getting into really interesting products like structural soils and uh stormwater remediation, talking about filtration, and and these other post-processing. So, what I've really come to sort of learn about biochar, and I think this is where it's maybe a little different just with my design background, sort of an approach to it. But, you know, seeing now I've sort of realized that you have these sort of three categories of this bio bio-carbon. So, you have biochar, which is sort of the lowest on the totem pole of, you know, you can make it very easily. You can dig a hole, you can make biochar in a hole, you can um use a a low-tech kiln to make it, and then you have uh biocarbon, which is a sort of more controlled process. So, think of like uh what you can do with a pyre egg or some of these more advanced uh technologies where you're really able to control that temperature, residence time, particle size, everything. And then you get into the sort of third category, which is like a hard carbon, where you're taking that biocarbon and you're really reducing it to a very compact, similar structured material. And and each of these things has its own use and its own pathway, but you start getting into as you control the process more and you really make for um a a concise, consistent material, then you start to open up these other pathways, you know, in advanced materials, in battery technology, in all these new places that we haven't We really just haven't explored yet. And that's what gets me the most excited about working with the material. >> Yeah, well, I like to say highly configurable. So, when people say, "Well, tell me about biochar. Does it do this?" And instead of that hum and haw of "It depends," I'll say, "Well, the good news is that biochar is highly configurable. So, based on what your desired outcome is, we can we can craft it for you. We can build it and make it repeatable." So, again, and you're right with the built environment opportunities on the on the very near term and becoming a reality. I mean, we have a lot of aboveground biomass and quote-unquote waste materials that are that need They need to be We need to be able to handle them. And with especially, you know, the way you think, with the circularity, the way Born More, the corporate side is thinking about circularity and their objectives in decarbonizing their supply chains, like you said, I think it's unavoidable at this point. Actually, I know it's unavoidable. That's why so many people are committed to it. And back to your off-take agreements to get funding on the commercial side. You're very lucky. You know, you were fortunate. You came into you you're not that far from somebody that already made this, you know, what, like million-dollar investment in carbonator. And when you think about the commercial systems you were talking about, you're usually at the very low end about a million and a half to and then the Pyreks and some of the others, 3 million, 5 million. By the time you get everything done on your plant, you're looking anywhere between 3 and 10 million. And that's for something that's considered even smaller scale on the industrial side. The big ones you're looking at 50 million dollars. Or if you're doing a multi-node install, you know, 25 to 100 million. It all But it becomes configurable in those markets that you identified with filtration. They tend to be a little less price sensitive because most of them are backed through municipal contracts. And so they and they're looking at from what's the benefit to our taxpayer. So if there's durable benefit to it, they can justify the cost. But yeah, the price per ton is dramatically different than it used to be when I first, you know, around the same time that you got into it. When I first started selling biochar it was $500 a yard. And now with the brokering that I do, I can find it 500 to 700 a ton. So But again, that always needs that that tends to need to go into sequestration, right? Because you talked about the biocarbon. And the biofuel gets burned up and there's no there's no credit for that. But the sequestration side, that's that's what allows them to get in there. >> Let's go Let's go ahead and talk a bit more about your startup. >> Yeah, so um Echo Building Systems is a partnership between myself, Aaron and then Arthur Jaga Flow Math. Um, we started out with the idea of wanting to build carbon like a net zero home kit. So, thinking about all the materials that go into a small ADU or cabin sort of the workforce housing, you know, small scale, not necessarily apartment multi-family buildings, but what we quickly identified was you know, after concrete and steel, the biggest carbon emitter footprint of a building is the insulation. And we just sort of identified this opportunity to start to think about how do we decarbonize a high-performance insulation. So, something that's really scalable, something that can really have a big impact. So, we identified that closed-cell polyurethane foam is one of the best performers, but it also carries a pretty high footprint. So, we started there. We've been identifying right now we're about 60 to 65% bio-based with the goal to make a 100% bio-based thermal insulation foam, but we already had a good starting point. We knew that companies like BASF had worked with graphite to enhance the thermal value of insulation foam. And so, our thesis was can we do the same thing with biochar? And so, after extensive testing found a material and a process that gives us about a 10 to 25% bump in R value per inch with using a 10% loading of biochar. So, it's exciting. It's a long process. Building materials are certainly not a quick turnaround. We have some other products in the pipeline that we're working on, but right now the thermal insulation has been our main focus. We did receive a grant to work on that through Columbia University and NYSERDA, which is a New York based fund supporting energy development. And so we've been that's what's paid for our testing and we're in the process of doing the fundraising now, but we so far we've been able to do everything just with grant funding. But it's it's exciting because I think what we figured out sort of our specialty is going to be to help some of these larger producers figure out sort of what the material that they have based on their process and feedstock, what characteristics it has and where what other markets, even if they're not developed yet, that might be able to go into. So we're sort of finding ourselves in this niche where we're sort of helping producers functionalize the material that they're making through their process, which might involve a post-processing, you know, micronization or you know, like a activation through you know, you know, increasing the surface area, you know, all these different post-processing possibilities, but still taking that material in their process and being able to you know, push it into new markets and new opportunities for different products from the same sources. So I think that's exciting. It feels like maybe that's not something that has a lot of work has been done or a lot of people have been thinking about, so I think there's an opportunity there to sort of help, you know, keep driving the industry through some other areas that have have yet to be kind of figured out. But yeah, we'll see how that where that takes us. >> Yeah, I I'd have to say I believe that to be a a pioneering business case. So let's let's figure how to get it in. You know, I've I've just been dedicated to the soil side. Let's get it in there. Although, recently from the brokerage standpoint, I've been working with producers that are having to sell this fuel >> and get it pelletized just like you're talking about with the post-production. Well, if you need to keep the lights on for a while, sell some of it as fuel. And if they're willing to pay the the the difference with with the carbon credit would have generated. >> Yeah. >> It still decarbonizes heavy industry. That's a big deal. >> fuel input for a bio fuel input, we're making progress. Now, we're not going to solve everything tomorrow. We need to take incremental steps. And sometimes just changing habits and changing sources is a step forward. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, keep keep that fossil carbon in the ground and work with what we have. Yeah, the the let's see here. I'm just wondering, what do you see as kind of the next pathway for biochar? >> Yeah. >> like you're already there. >> do I think like you know, this is this is sort of something I I I certainly realize and imagine a lot. I know you realize a lot of people in this space like I think, you know, it is important to work in sort of all sides of the biochar marketplace and understand everything, you know, from soil to materials to even potentially fuel for decarbonizing, you know, metallurgy and you know, those different opportunities um just to see how we can get the infrastructure in place cuz I think we do need to scale this. It is an inherently um most beneficial when it's regional. You know, we can't be shipping this material all over the world or even all over the country. We need to figure out um you know, standards uh and um you know, what we're talking about as we develop the market, develop the different materials cuz it really it's not one material. It's a whole cat. It's a category of materials. And the sort of faster we can settle on agree on different definitions of what is what, I think the easier it'll be to grow the market and to grow into some of these new areas. Um cuz I think right now it still sometimes feels a little wild west. You know, you have people, you know, selling saying they're selling something, but you know, people don't know enough to know the difference between a high carbon fly ash and a, you know, really high carbon, you know, woody biomass based biochar. So, I think it, you know, it's early, it's, you know, even though I know people have been working for 30 years in this in this area, um it still feels like early days in a lot of ways. And I think just keeping, you know, keeping, you know, things moving and you know, I think much like, you know, someone recently compared it to the beginnings of the oil and gas industry, you know, like when we first started pumping oil out of the ground, you know, we had two products and it was we didn't even know how to refine it, you know, and I feel some in some ways like biochar and biocarbon is the same in a similar place where we're really just at the beginning of understanding what the possible product paths are. And if you think of, you know, what has happened with with oil, you know, and the the categories of products, you know, now we're realizing how awful some of them are, but you know, the microplastics and all of that. But you know, just the ability to innovate um a new material and to think what's possible. I think that's um you know, that's where the work is and that's where I see, you know, my work continuing, figuring out what's possible with these materials. Future is bright. >> Future's bright. Yeah, there's a lot of There's I know, that's These are the things that make me feel the the optimism. They're things that keep me going on a day-to-day basis. It's how do we >> Yeah. >> we can win. >> It's going to be Yeah, it's going to be work. It's a lot of work. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've literally broken bones like working in biochar. So, but I'm still here. And I know that other people are doing the same thing, you know? There are folks who have lost their houses and but the thing that I am finding fantastic is that we do have these markets that are building. We do have banks that are willing to lend. We have investors that are coming in that are willing to have the slow returns instead of expecting that dot-com type turnaround. They're looking at, you know, they're fine with a 5-year turnaround. But those off-takes are still That's the unicorn >> No, and it's it's a challenging time, you know, with not just the political winds that are happening now, but also just the amount of investment, the percentage of investment going into AI and not into hard science. I mean, it's it's it's Yeah, it's tough times, but like again, you know, these are our cycles that that happen and there's such a good community I feel like in the biochar space and people really committed that I have no doubt that we'll be able to weather this storm and and figure out the next thing for it. So, yeah. >> Yeah. Um so, real quick, here's a question. When you're at a party when you say you tell people you work with biochar, what's >> What's my elevator >> pitch? Yeah, what's your elevator pitch? >> Yeah, I think like I I like to go from um the upcycling cuz I think that's something that people can understand. I think this sort of goal of taking waste materials, everyone at this point pretty much understands that we can't just keep throwing things away infinitely and that that there is a cost to everything that we consume. And so, this idea of being able to utilize waste material and through a process that not only sequesters carbon, so helps reduce, you know, slow down, basically buys us I talk about it as buying us more time to figure out, you know, how to scale this stuff. But, you know, basically, you know, being able to utilize this material that we see as waste and some of it is highly problematic, you know, when you think about um can you know, contaminated materials that we can figure out how to use again, um how to destroy PFAS, microplastics, um capture heavy metals. I mean, I think a lot of that those benefits go into this. But, this this basic idea of of being able to take waste and turn it into a valuable product and help sequester carbon at the same time. That's usually sort of my my short of it. But, it's it's easy to get long-winded, so. Maybe that wasn't concise enough. I don't know. >> I No, no. I think we all have that same problem, you know, it's so cool and it's like, go look it up and enjoy the rabbit hole cuz uh you're going to learn about it and then you want you're going to also want to become a carbon hero. You're going to think about how to use it in the lawns, getting your cities to use it, and learning more about tree maintenance and tree planting with biochar and how it can save money and just the fact that, you know, I I often I know I said this a lot of times, but when I do events at educational events that you're talking about and there's a kid that comes up to the booth and like, "Hey, have you thought about soil science and biochar?" Because you get to burn stuff and get your hands in the dirt, right? Like it's a and it's great, you know, everybody's always happy or happy and >> No, one of my favorite >> You're involved in that here. >> demos is my kids school that they used to go to with Salk Day School here just around the corner. They have an intensives program where they send me, you know, 10 high school students and yeah, they just we burn a you know, set fire to a bunch of wood and then make biochar and they get to see the whole process and then at the end they take it back and they put it in the garden, mix it with the compost. So, it really is a nice way for them to see and then I can, you know, also do a little education about a glo- you know, greenhouse gas emissions and global warming and show some charts and um it really helps to explain it. It can be very um you know, sometimes it's hard to to get your head around, you know, these concepts and it's a really nice way to to make it I think just palatable, especially for younger people who, you know, all this stuff is going to be more effect, you know, have more effect on them than it's us old guys. >> Yeah, and well and and it's going to be a necessity as well. You know, and you were talking earlier about standards and and definitions and that's one of the things that I'm so encouraged about with the American Biochar Institute. You know, they're making that transition from the old USBI, so it's no longer an initiative, it's an institute. And I personally know that they're working on well over 20, I think some 30-odd BMPs. So, how to use it in filtration. I think there's a big stormwater BMP that's going to be released here shortly and I think that's going to be Well, I know that's going to be ground changing and we see cities and states that are adopting uh biochar practices. And we have groups like the SCLAE and others that are interested in in putting it into their into their practices. You know, I do want to touch on the fact that with ABI, are you going to be at the North American Biochar Conference >> definitely. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. >> I think you'll make it. >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't miss it. Uh those are always great great gatherings, lots of ideas sharing. It's a wonderful time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Actually, want to >> Do you think you're going to have a booth? >> forget to my Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh. >> Yeah. >> Well, so this is uh >> we were talking earlier about how we go from enthusiast to industry. So, we both had these plates for a while. Uh you and I first met at the 2020 International Biochar Initiative. >> Yeah, in Helsingborg. No, Helsingborg, Sweden was where we first met. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That was our first meeting. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, yeah. No, and I think like again, I think this goes back to, you know, the education component, you know, I see this as very low-cost advertising for me to start a conversation about what's biochar and how how you can you can work with it. So, it's a great way to represent Yeah. Talk. >> Yeah. Well, I had a commercial um pyrolyzer and distribution um business. I used, you know, this is an advertisement for me around town, you know, bio-biochar. So, yeah, it does it does make sense. And I do know that at the Academy, Kathleen Draper was talking about how she used to have a biochar license plate and then somebody took it. Somebody else registered it and then it was you. >> I felt so guilty about it for a while, but she was she's so supportive. I mean, she's you know, she's a huge mentor to me, Kathleen, and you know, especially on the material side cuz she's very interested in in that side as well. So, she's one of our advisors for Echo and I speak with her once a month. So, I know now she has biochar one I think she has the license plates. >> Yeah, nice. Well, I know that she's writing a book and it's all about the built environment. So, my guess is that we're going to see your name in there. >> Yeah, she said Yeah, actually, I'm pretty sure cuz she there's a chapter on insulation and she asked me to take a look at it and there's a a blurb about our work in there as well. >> Yeah. Well, my understanding is this going to publish soon and we're going to have her on the Biochar Show with her own podcast episode. So, I'm really looking forward to that. You know, as we come to the end, what do Do have anything that we talked a little bit about the optimism? Do you have any kind of soapbox that then leads into your >> Another take on optimism. I mean, I think you know, for me, you know, I got into this because Yeah, I mean, I got into this because of my kids and, you know, seeing the world that, you know, we're careening towards them inheriting. And, you know, I think sustainable furniture was a great career, but, you know, it wasn't enough. And, I think every day I feel Every day I'm able to make some biochar or tell someone about it, make that connection, I feel like it's a step forward towards, you know, potential solution, you know, and it's not going to happen, you know, ev- next day, it's not going to happen next year, maybe, but it makes me feel, you know, when I get the reception I get towards towards biochar and the work that I do, I always feel like, you know, it's the right thing to do. And, um I think the whole, you know, being part of this industry and being part of trying to find a solution to, you know, repair our soils, to um you know, reduce carbon from the atmosphere, and to make really cool products while we do it. I mean, that's pretty much the dream right there. So. Yeah. >> Agree. Healthy food, healthy people. I know it's like, "Hey kids, I love you." What is it the kids do these days? I'm doing it wrong, but I love kids. And, like, yeah, I know that general it's generational it's generational benefit. I mean, we're making stuff that literally can register as a blip on deep time. Yeah. How cool is that? So. All right. So, I want to point out to everybody, Bill, this has been a fantastic interview. Uh thank you so much. Uh we will put in in the show notes, there'll be information on how to reach out to Bill. Bill, do you want to tell us your contact >> for biochar on the production side, um New York Carbon, NY Carbon. My email is bill@nycarbon.co. then on the research and education white feather farm my email is bill at white feather farm.org and either of those you can reach out to me and I'm happy to talk biochar anytime. >> Bill, I want to thank you for being part of the biochar show podcast that's sponsored by biochar today. We look forward to discussing more about this thing called highly configurable carbon biochar for a sequestration. Thanks again Bill. It's fantastic to see you. >> Oh yeah. >> Let's hold up our signs and say goodbye to everybody. >> This is awesome. >> All right Bill. Yeah, Bill will catch you in the notes man. This fantastic episode with Bill Hogendorp reinforces a core truth about where this industry stands today. Biochar is not yet a fully defined market. It is a developing material class, a distributed production system and increasingly a bridge between waste streams and high value applications. What Bill is building through education networks, regional production, and material innovation points to a broader shift. The constraint is not just technology, it's understanding standards and the ability to connect production to real world use cases from soil systems to storm water, from carbon markets to building materials. The question is no longer whether biochar has a role, the question is how quickly can we align production and demand. If you want to continue this conversation, you can find Bill through n y carbon, so bill at n y carbon.co, white feather farm bill at white feather farm dot org. As always, you can find more information, links, and supporting material in the show notes. This episode is part of the biochar show produced in collaboration with biochar today where we are working to bring clarity, structure, and momentum to a rapidly scaling industry. This conversation was fantastic, and was enjoyable, and it's absolutely worth sharing. Hit the buttons to subscribe to the show on your preferred platform, and share it with others working in carbon, climate, agriculture, and the built environment. If you're working to source, deploy, or better understand biochar in real-world applications, connect with me on LinkedIn @johnA801 or gobiochar.com. I want to encourage you to keep up the important work out there. We can do this, and see you at our next conversation. The supporting sponsor of this program is Future Fresh Farms and their MicroRevive biological product line. Biochar provides the carbon, biology unlocks the potential. MicroRevive introduces beneficial microbes designed to work alongside biochar, helping support nutrient retention, root growth, and resilient living soils. Suitable for direct soil, foliar, and controlled environment applications. MicroRevive is OMRI certified and registered for agricultural use in all states. MicroRevive, regenerating soils to feed the future. Learn more at futurefreshfarms.com. The biochar industry is growing fast. Connect with the people, projects, technologies, and ideas shaping its future at the North American Biochar Conference. Learn more, register, or become a sponsor at biocharconference.com.