How do you manage to get close to these elite people? Because we’ve reached some top-tier people, I mean, through the NBA, people in the Olympics— let’s say, the pinnacle of global sports elite. Well, the truth is that they were the ones who approached me. In today’s episode, we are joined by Dr. Carlos Balsalobre, a sports science researcher and creator of My Jump Lab. Today we’ll talk about how to measure performance through science, how to train better, his work as a consultant in elite sports, and his challenges in entrepreneurship. You hit record, and in real time, it tells you the speed you’re hitting. Based on that speed, it tells you what your 1RM is that day, which helps in administering the right training dose, as close as possible to what you actually intended. If the goal is neuromuscular performance gain, understood as improved maximal strength , better jumping, or better sprinting, research has shown us that the optimal point is around...well, if you jump less than such and such, or have so many kilometers accumulated, then in two weeks you’ll break. There has been a huge investment of money and a lot of technology trying to find, let's say, that key that helps me actually predict when someone is going to get injured based on A, B, and C. No one has found it. A perfect example is Usain Bolt. He had a 14%asymmetry in his contact times. Wow. So, some symmetry gurus might think, without telling them the context that it’s Bolt, just seeing the data of someone with 14%asymmetry: "Correct that." I always say that, look, we all like to measure ourselves and post the results proudly on social media, etc., but in reality, the true purpose of a measurement is to make training decisions. How is it being a university professor and an entrepreneur at the same time? A curious combination. Well, it’s true that I found quite a bit of friction from the status quo, so to speak. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you , and then you have won. Just 10 years ago, we trained with fixed weights because we didn’t have methods to autoregulate; but thanks to today’s guest, we have a lab (equivalent to machinery worth thousands of euros) in our pocket, on our mobile phone, and this allows us to know our daily status and regulate ourselves much more precisely. He is a person who has worked with NBA athletes, who has worked with people who have gone to the Olympics and has even developed applications that have earned him an invitation. To the annual event for developers that Apple organizes at Apple Park in California. Today I have the pleasure of bringing you Carlos Basalbre. Carlos, welcome. Thank you very much, Aitor, a pleasure to be here. Carlos, first so that people who don't know you know a little bit about who you are, tell us who you are and what you do. Well, basically I am a father of three children and that is who I am. What do I do? I am a doctor of physical activity and sports sciences, and I am a tenured professor of biomechanics at the Autonomous University of Madrid. Mm. And well, in addition to advising professional athletes, as you mentioned a little bit in the introduction, I am also the creator of My Jump, which is this application that started as a side project, if you will, a hobby. During my initial research stage and that, well, little by little has snowballed, and nowadays it is true that it is quite popular in the sector. How do you manage to approach these elite people? Because we have talked about very top-tier people, I mean, through the NBA, people who have been to the Olympics, let's say it's the pinnacle of global sports elite. How do you manage to contact those people? What is it like working with them? Well , the truth is that it was they who approached me, and it is not because I am anyone special, but it is very common, especially in the NBA, as well as in various teams in La Liga or the Premier League, and so on. It is very common within high-performance staffs, uh, that desire to be at the forefront, to be up to date and to learn from many people in many different disciplines. So, I have been lucky that due to the popularity of, in this case, My Jump, many have approached me because, although it is true that it is a project that was born for and its mission continues to be this, right? To democratize the assessment of physical performance. It is true that even these clubs with virtually all the resources in the world are also very interested in ways to measure performance in a simple way, not for lack of resources, but primarily for lack of time. They want something that is very fast, that does not require going to a lab or complex instrument calibrations and such. And above all, that they can easily take it with them, for example on trips—in the NBA, just look at how much they travel by plane from place to place, from coast to coast. So, something that’s easy to carry on a mobile phone is something they are very interested in. That’s why it’s true that many teams and athletes have become interested. Yes. Tell us a bit about what these people use these applications for, so people can get an idea of what the applications actually do. Okay, so basically what it allows for is the measurement of physical performance in various areas. The most popular one is probably the ability to measure vertical jump. It also allows for 1RM estimation, checking your daily fitness status by comparing, for example, power in a jump or bar velocity. But it also lets you measure force-velocity profiles in a sprint or running mechanics—in short, various biomechanical applications; let's say the set of physical skills an athlete has from a physical performance standpoint can be measured with, in this case, My Jump. So, depending on the sport, one thing might be more interesting than another. Generally, what is almost always of most interest is the measurement of the vertical jump , okay? I suppose throughout the interview we will perhaps break this down a little, but it doesn't just allow for the obvious, which is measuring how high someone jumps, but it is a great tool for detecting states of fatigue, and in that sense, athletes use it a lot. Very interesting, which is exactly where I want to go. Imagine I am an NBA player, okay? Why might I be interested in knowing my jump height or knowing my 1RM? Tell us a bit about that. Well look, above all for managing two aspects of fatigue, which would be acute fatigue and chronic fatigue, right? Acute fatigue is how a training session immediately affects your capacity to produce force. Fatigue is the loss of the capacity to produce force. So, for example, in the specific case of the NBA, a baseline vertical jump measurement is usually used before training, in a state of absolute rest or optimal fitness, so to speak. And then, during the session at certain moments, it is measured again to see how that vertical jump is changing. If it drops too much, it means the state of neuromuscular fatigue is already becoming too evident, and it's a tool that allows you to manage the load and make decisions. Exactly. For example, in an NBA schedule, which they actually always complain is very, very dense with so many games in a week, this is vital to ensure the player arrives fresh. Totally. In fact, some say that in the NBA, understand this phrase correctly, right? Some people say they don't train , they recover, because they have so many games that, in reality, training —what you and I might understand as training and the effort that a hard session implies—well, they logically don't have the context to give that level of intensity that would keep them fatigued for several days and then have them supercompensate, etc. Here, they basically have to find that minimum effective dose that allows them to continue improving performance, or rather, to maintain it—improving it is difficult, but at least not losing it. And recovering enough from one game to the next. So, for example, vertical jump; we were talking before about acute fatigue and chronic fatigue. Probably, it’s not only in the NBA, but it is very common, for example, in soccer and team sports; it is used to measure at a chronic level—that is, on the same day of the week, for example, always under the same conditions, I measure vertical jump and you compare the fluctuation over time. And are there big differences? There are significant differences, yes, indeed. And does it have any correlation, for example, with the possibility of injury ? It is not clear, especially as an individual indicator, that is, everything that has to do with managing fatigue and training load is known to be related to the occurrence of injuries, but there isn't a single indicator, not the vertical jump, nor any other. And anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you, that it can give you, let's say , a reliable ability to predict when you are going to get injured. Right, that interests me a lot because a large part of the people watching us are concerned with how to predict when they are going to get injured, right? What is that magic indicator? Well, it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. And is there a mix of indicators that will give us this information? Absolutely. I mean, I think what's really important is to understand the difference, which is sometimes, let's say, misinterpreted, between preventing and predicting. I mean, for prevention, there is a lot of research that shows you what kind of tasks, what kind of routines, what kind of training stimuli—and or outside of training—what factors are the ones that increase the risk of an injury appearing. And there are many aspects on which we can work to prevent injuries. Something else entirely is predicting injuries. Like, if you jump less than such and such, or you have so many accumulated kilometers of so and so, and you have this or that, then in two weeks you'll break down. There has been a huge investment of money, a lot of technology, research with machine learning, with artificial intelligence in all areas, trying to find, let's say, that key that helps me actually predict when someone is going to get injured based on A, B, and C. No one has found it, and there are people who are skeptical that it will ever be found. And why do you consider that it has never been found? despite all the resources that have been put into this search, because the human body is tremendously complex, and injuries are tremendously multifactorial. So, from a physical preparation prism, which is, let's say, the field in which those of us here and those who will be listening are interested, there are certain factors that are known to be, as I say, related to the onset of injuries; but injuries don't just have to do with physical aspects. There is a lot related to nutritional aspects, motivational aspects, psychological aspects, sleep —there are many factors. And for example, speaking of things that the application can provide us, well, the applications, what other variable could be interesting for a basketball player, for example? Well look, there is a section that interests me personally quite a bit because it is tremendously simple. For me, the simpler things are, or rather when the ratio of how simple it is to the information it provides is most appropriate, the better, right? So there is a section that has to do with wellness questionnaires that a priori might seem, well, less technological, more banal, right? Yes, indeed, because it has to do with the subjective, and we are very biased towards objective, quantifiable technology, and it seems like I'm shooting myself in the foot by saying this. Yes, because for a scientist it's paradoxical, right? We like numbers, we like to measure. Sure, but Exactly. But the problem is, uh, when you give too much weight to the number and remove the subjective factor from the equation, and we forget that we work with people and not with robots. And in fact, there is a lot of research that shows the great capacity that subjective variables have, uh, to, let's say, give you information about your state of fitness. There are, in fact, some studies that show you that trained people, well, of course, we already know the capacity that trained people have to predict the RIR, uh, but there are studies that even show you their ability to estimate at what speed they are lifting the bar without an encoder, with prior training , simply knowing what it feels like to lift the bar at 0.5 meters per second, well, you have that subjective capacity and you see good correlations there, right? Not perfect correlations, but significant and important correlations. So, to answer your question, there is a part within, in this case, My Jam, my application, out of all the performance areas it can measure, that has to do with wellness questionnaires. And these aren't questionnaires, let's say, that I invented, but rather they are questionnaires that are validated and it's as easy as: from one to nine, tell me how well you slept, how fatigued you feel, how much DOMS or muscle soreness you perceive. And there are studies that show that this is highly associated with, for example, your heart rate variability or sleep quality levels measured with instruments. So, as I tell you, we have a bias, and I have been the first, toward the technological, the quantifiable, the objective, but we must not underestimate subjective variables, especially in sufficiently trained athletes; what they tell you is something very much to take into account. And then we go right to the opposite perspective, right? The typical person who is distrustful of technology, who is someone who likes to suffer. I think the question I would ask you would be, what is this app good for me if what I want is to train like an animal? Well, I think the key is in finding that minimum effective dose we were talking about earlier; that is, to find the point at which, uh, what science calls diminishing returns occurs, which is basically: you reach a point from which the advantages you get are very small compared to the extra effort you are putting in. I mean, it's a bit like the Pareto principle, right? When you hit the 20% that gives you 80, and you start entering that 80 that only gives you 20 . Exactly. Exactly. Okay. How can I use your app to find that point beyond which doing more? Will give you more, but just a little bit more. As I said, it depends on the goal, it depends on the sport or the physical performance variable you want to improve. For example, in a fitness or strength context. Okay, surely the most interesting thing we can contribute there is the execution speed of the lift, the strength exercise we are performing. What is it useful for, for example? Well look, for example, we know there is a very close association between the speed at which you perform the exercise and the level of intensity that the exercise you're doing implies. For example, if I lift at 0.6 meters per second, I know it is very likely I am lifting at a very exact percentage of what would be my 1RM of maximum dynamic strength. Maximum. So, to clarify a bit, you know at what speed you move your heaviest weight, let's assume my maximum is 100, well I know that I move 100 at 0.5. So, I know that if I'm at 0.7, I'm not close to my maximum yet. Exactly. So, it helps you determine, or rather, it helps you predict what your 1RM or your maximum would be without having to perform a maximum test. And that is a great advantage, because you forget about having to do a 1RM test with everything that implies, which is an incremental test for those who don't know—though I imagine we are all knowledgeable—that involves increasing the load on the bar or the exercise in question until you can only do one repetition, just one time. It is an effort that takes time and is very intense, also considering that we are not robots and that performance fluctuates due to many factors, as we said before. It is quite normal, in fact, it is standard that your 1RM theoretically varies every day, in such a way that if you really want to train every day, for example, at 70%, technically you would have to do a 1RM test to know what 70%means. Right. So, let's say it's a way of knowing what your state is, exactly, but instead of doing a jump, here what you are doing is a lift. Exactly. So, how do we have to do it to know? Meaning, I do a lift, and what do I do with the app? Look, for example, it's very easy. In this case, with the app, you set it to record from the side—imagine you're doing a bench press, a squat, or a deadlift, I don't care, any exercise, right? So you record from the side, making sure the plate is clearly visible, because basically, the AI application registers the plate and, well, you hit record and in real time it tells you the speed you're moving at. So, you get two pieces of information there. First, based on that speed, it will tell you what your 1RM is for that day. So, if you want to train at 70%, since you just found out what your 100%is, you know exactly how much weight to put on the bar. That is, to administer the appropriate training dose as close as possible to what you actually intended. And I also think, correct me if I'm wrong, that it's great for knowing if there's a long-term increase in your capacity. Exactly, because if, imagine, I want to reach 130 in bench press, instead of trying for 130 every so often to see if I can hit it, I just check—the estimate, obviously, might not be 100%precise, but within 10 kg, 10 kg off, I'll know I've reached it, right? Yes, exactly. If a same load—that's the main rule, right? If you're moving the same load faster, you know by definition that if you move that same absolute load 0.1 m/s faster, it implies you've applied more force. So you have to look at the speed at which you move a load. Exactly. It would be, let's say, to be practical— although there are many ways to do it —something very useful for estimating your fitness level is to measure the speed of a constant load over time. So, you see, if it's a bit higher, you increase the load a little. If it's a bit lower, then maybe it's a day to lower the load a bit. Right. So that's what we were saying before: you self-regulate. Exactly. So, we were talking about two main functions. This would be one. The second is even more interesting, if possible, which is the one that allows you to manage intra-set fatigue, that is, the classic question, how many reps should I do? And that's where all the popularity we all know about RIR and the rest comes in, right? So, RIR is accurate, of course it is, but it's a way to go a step further to know exactly at what point, uh, you reach a degree of effort where it's known that beyond that effort you won't get any performance gains, but rather they could be reps that sometimes—although I don't really like the term—we've called junk reps and so on, right? Carlos Balobre was passionate about fitness and high performance and turned his passion into his profession. But in order to get his PhD and develop apps that are now downloaded all over the world and used in high performance, he first had to lay the foundations with a Sports Science degree. Sports Science degrees are generally more generic programs that aren't specialized in fitness and high performance, and you end up studying things like body expression, sociology, or history that don't really add much if you want to become a personal trainer or develop apps like Carlos. That is why at Fit Generation we have launched our Sports Science degree, our Bachelor's in Physical Activity and Sports Science, which besides being only 3 years instead of four, the classes are 100% online, it's specialized in fitness and high performance, and it's taught by professors who already work in this field, like Rubén Castro at Cobas or, for example, myself. So if you want more information about Fit Generation's Sports Science degree, go to the link you'll find both in the description and as the first comment, and from there you can download a dossier that tells you everything about Fit Generation's Sports Science degree. So, it's exactly what we were talking about before, which is knowing at what point from here on you can keep doing it, it will have a benefit, but it might be very small and no longer worth it for you. Exactly. How do I estimate that point with what you're telling me? Well, basically we have a lot of research on the subject that compares what are called velocity loss thresholds. So, how is it estimated? Exact practical case with MyLift. Any encoder does the same thing , right? But in this case, for you to see the practical case with my app, you just place the phone from the side, hit record, and then it starts measuring the velocity. You do repetitions, for example, bench press. Right. And it measures the velocity of each repetition. So, the fastest velocity, which is usually the first one, is what is considered the baseline . So, based on how you start dropping, it's a percentage relative to that fastest repetition. For example, if you're at, uh, 0.1 and you drop to 0.09, it means you're at, I mean 0.09, you've lost 10%. Right, for example, to make the calculation easy, if you're lifting at 1 meter per second and then you go to 0.8 meters per second, you've had a 20%velocity loss, right? And what percentage should I lose? If I ... That's the, that's the, that's the crux of the matter, it depends on the goal. For example, if...uh, if the goal is gaining neuromuscular performance, understood as improving maximum strength, jump improvement, or sprint improvement, research has shown us that the optimal point, although there are always nuances, always outliers, always people who respond more or less, but the optimal point is around 20%. So, you don't lose much speed. You don't lose much speed. In fact, in the context of, uh, fitness, bodybuilding, etc., velocity losses are much larger, much closer to 40%. Wow. Much more which is a feeling, uh, much closer to failure. Right, logically, if in the same set instead of losing 20%you lose 40%, what you're doing is, uh, accumulating more training volume. And we know from many studies that total volume, for example, the number of sets per week per muscle group, is one of the great drivers, in quotes, of hypertrophy. So, but how does the app know? I mean, uh, with AI it tracks the repetition and how does it know when you've reached the limit you set for it? Imagine you tell the app, "Hey, I only want to lose 40%." Sure, because 50%isn't worth it for me anymore. Yes. How does the app tell you? "Hey, stop because you're at 45." Okay, well, basically there's an option to set a threshold. So, you put whatever threshold you want there. Imagine 20%. So, you hit record and you can see it, and when the speed you hit, say on repetition six, is 20%below the threshold we mentioned, an alert goes off, and if you're training alone, you hear it. If you're the coach and you're recording, then besides hearing it, you see it. So it's a form of real-time feedback that allows you to stop the set at the right moment. The paradigm here isn't doing fixed sets like, say, three sets of ten , but rather three sets of the number of reps until you reach 20%. It’s true that, as we’ve said before, we aren't robots, so there are many factors that influence technique: a small lapse in attention, a minor discomfort, a lack of concentration. So , the advice is usually that when you are below the threshold for two consecutive reps, that's when you stop. Right, sometimes it happens that, imagine, your goal is not to drop below, let's make it up, 0.6 meters per second, and you're at 0.61, 0.62, then one rep you hit 0.57, but the next one you go back to 0.61 because it was just a small technical error, the bar and exactly, but if you're below for two reps, then you don't keep doing reps, you know you've reached the limit. I think it’s hard because, for example, for bodybuilding or hypertrophy, I don't see it as being as useful because high levels of effort are definitely necessary, but for strength, people don't suspect that you can gain a lot of strength with low levels of effort, or relatively low , anyway. Yes, this is super interesting because, honestly, a 10%lower loss in strength can mean much less fatigue than adding another set. Totally. And you don't get as tired. That has happened to me, especially with runners, uh, because they were used to—well, for starters, they weren't training as much strength as they should have, right? Uh , but the strength they did do was typical, what has been poorly labeled as strength endurance. Uh, very intuitively, you know, if I’m an endurance athlete, I’m going to do strength endurance. That was in books from the 80s and 90s, for sure, even in NSCA manuals and things like that, right? Although they have been updated over the years. Yes. So it’s true, lots of circuits, many exercises, and high reps and such. And the first thing they usually tell you when you have them work this way is that it feels like they haven't done much, because they are athletes who are mentally very accustomed to training with very high volumes and suffering, and suffering a lot, especially the athletes. I mean, I like many diverse sports disciplines and I have more of a bias towards strength, but in terms of the level of effort and personal sacrifice, damn, we're talking about people who, maybe to run an event —I mean, their event is the 800 or 1500 meters, like Adrián Ben, who is arguably the most well-known Olympic athlete I advise—well, they are doing 130, 140 km a week of running. So, suddenly tell them to do 20%less to recover and they can't. So, of course, effectively, these people who are used to doing double sessions and who have that "no pain, no gain" mentality, it's complicated because you have to hold them back so they don't do too much. You, having lived a lot with these people, do you consider that mentality to be positive? I think it's necessary, yes, but up to a certain point, exactly, that's what I'm telling you, because it can be counterproductive, because people I've trained who aren't elite or anything, that person with that mentality, which is great if you need to pile on the load, fine, but there are times when you ruin an entire preparation because you have romanticized extreme sacrifice so much. Exactly. Exactly. That you think everything has to be like that, and that's a mistake. Exactly. No, no, I couldn't agree more. I tell you it's necessary because no one reaches high levels of performance. I'm not saying reaching the Olympics or not, but high levels of performance without having a great degree of commitment and tolerance for effort. The problem is when that tolerance for effort becomes something that works against you, not in your favor. Sure. Yes. And speaking again of runners, for example, who I think use the MyJumpLab app quite a lot, what use can they get out of it or what advantages can they derive from this app? We've talked about the vertical jump, which is super useful in many sports, but what else do we have in this, well, in the series of apps, because there are quite a few now? Yes, well, yes, technically it's one, it's just that there are many within it . It's like a package, if you look for it in the app store, in the App Store or the Play Store, it's called MyJumpLab, so it's one app, but it's like inside you have a section for jump , section for... for strength, section for running, section for sprint. So, runners use the vertical jump a lot because it’s a great fatigue management tool. Since we’ve already talked about that, there is a very specific part regarding running technique. Mhm. So, everything that has to do with asymmetries between legs, uh ground contact times, uh stiffness, which is a variable related to—in quotes, it’s a bit poorly phrased, but in quotes, so you understand me—the reactivity of your ability to apply force. Let's stop there because that’s a lot of things. Tell us about stiffness if you want, and then we'll go to to, well, what you were doing before. It was very interesting. Okay, well look, stiffness is a very important variable and often very misunderstood, as there are many people starting out in this fitness and training world who confuse flexibility with elasticity. They are two things— two things, in fact—that are antagonistic. Being flexible is having a great range of motion capacity, and being elastic is deforming little, and as soon as the force that caused the deformation ceases, you return to your capacity or your initial position, right? Right. For example, like those typical very hard sticks that when you twist them, boom, they go back to their place , right? Right. An Olympic bar is tremendously elastic because when it is heavily loaded, as we have seen bars that bounce, they then return to their original position. If it weren’t elastic, there would come a point where , once it reaches x newtons of force, it would break. It has to be elastic. So, something very elastic is something , in reality—although it might seem contradictory at first to people who aren't as into this—something very elastic is something very rigid. Right. So, stiffness literally means rigidity in English, and it is a musculoskeletal capacity, especially in our tendons, which is above all our elastic element. So, having a lot of stiffness implies that you accumulate a lot of elastic energy, and that elastic energy is returned to you, in quotes, for free. That is to say, it produces movement, it produces force application , not because you have spent ATP and produced muscle contractions, but because literally the spring—your tendons—is pushing you. Right. You harness energy you already had to produce more energy. Your tendon stretches. Uh-huh. When you take a stride, for example, the tendon while running, for instance, your Achilles tendon stretches, and when you take, let's say, when you propel that step, well, the tendon shortens, the whole muscle, the musculoskeletal system shortens, and the tendon is literally pushing you. So it is very important in actions explosive, etc., but it's even more important in long-distance actions because it allows you to save energy. In fact, there is a lot of research showing that runners who have more stiffness have greater energy savings, consuming less oxygen at a given speed. For example, if you and I go for a run at 15 km/h with Kipchoge, you and I will surely be gasping for air, while he would almost be at his resting heart rate, right? He is consuming very little oxygen, he is being very efficient, he is taking advantage of the energy he generated at the beginning the whole time. Exactly. Wow. I mean, he is a great energy saver. He is a great energy saver, and it is something that is fortunately very trainable, and in fact, what trains it the most is strength training with heavy loads. So, you're no longer talking about jumps; we're talking about strength training, that is maximum isometrics or heavy workouts, what we could all understand as, quote-unquote, powerlifter training . Many people will be surprised by this because we are very used to a runner's strength training being jumps, and suddenly you tell them about 60 days, and of course, they look at you like, no way. And it doesn't mean that doing jumps is not important, and plyometrics in general, but there is too much abuse of one thing and too little use of another. You mentioned uh two other things, one is symmetry and the other is contact time. Tell me a little about them. Okay, look , I think it's worth talking about symmetry because it's another one of the great misunderstood things. We have a bias to think that our goal is to be 100%symmetrical, or 0%asymmetrical if you do an asymmetry test. So, you do a test—it happens to me sometimes—you do a workshop or whatever, you pull out a volunteer, you do a test, and everyone is crossing their fingers to see if they get 0%. And that is actually irrelevant, huh? It doesn't mean that asymmetry isn't important; it is very important. What we have to understand is that there is no ideal asymmetry value, but rather what's really important is to monitor yours and see if it remains stable over time. Okay? A paradigmatic example is Usain Bolt, who is the best sprinter in history, he had a 14%asymmetry in his contact times . Wow. Which means, I mean, one foot spends much more time on the ground than the other foot. Exactly. So, some symmetry gurus might look at raw data without knowing the context—that it's Bolt—and just see a 14%asymmetry. Let's go, man. They say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Yeah. And that happens a lot with symmetry. You see 14, 15, 20%, and immediately think the person is going to get injured. Remember what we were saying earlier? There is no single variable that helps you predict when someone is going to get injured. Well, that predictive capacity—or the thought that symmetry will predict an injury— has always been attributed to it. "Hey, I'm going to look at symmetry.""If it's high, you're going to get injured." But on what basis? I mean, what does it mean to have an asymmetry? Right, exactly. That is the crux of the matter. That's why I'm telling you that what really matters is monitoring the athlete's baseline. Let's go back to the Bolt example. He always had 14% asymmetry, was the best sprinter in history, never got injured, so let's not fix that. The problem is if his baseline is 14%and one day he hits 20%, that's when there is probably something to correct or an alarm going off. What could an increase in asymmetry mean? It could be joint pain, muscle discomfort, anything that changes how you apply force compared to what you've been doing until now, by definition, alters your symmetry. Okay, a lesion, by definition, alters symmetry significantly, because even if it's just due to the structure of the torn muscle, for example, or the pain you feel when placing your foot, your ability to apply force is disrupted. And so that is one of the main sources of asymmetry , of course, minor aches or pains. Let's move to the other concept we have left, which is contact time. Contact time. Another variable, for example, that Jordan Santos has researched a lot, among other things, is contact time in runners and such. Shout out to Jordan, a great friend. And so, contact time—I spoke to you earlier about stiffness—is another variable known to be closely related to running economy, in such a way that runners who spend less time with their feet on the ground tend to be the most efficient. and it has an inverse relationship with running speed. It's curious because, really, to apply force you need time, but it is strange that people who are faster at running have very little contact time. I understand that means they apply force very quickly, faster. It's the concept of explosive force. We often think of explosive force as very high-speed actions, but technically it simply means applying force in a very short period of time. paradoxically to what many think regarding explosive force. One of the exercises or movements in which explosive force is very high, that is, your rate of applying force in a very short time is very large, is in maximal isometric exercises. You have a bar that you cannot move, you try to lift it as fast as possible and you measure it with a force plate, for example, and you see a very fast peak of force generation there, higher, I understand from what you say, than a concentric one, for example. Exactly. Yes. So, when measuring contact time, we are interested in athletes with short contact times. It is ideal, indeed. And do you have any relationship with jumping, for example? Uh, good question. Short answer, yes. Long answer. It depends, there is always a "it depends," it always depends, right? Well, logically when performance levels are not so high, athletes who have shorter contact times, for example, in a sprint , also tend to be the ones who jump the highest or have shorter contact times in repeated jump tests. However, as the sport becomes very specialized, you don't always look at the ranking of an Olympic final, for example, not always, not by a long shot. The first place, the Olympic gold medalist, has less contact time than the second and third, you know what I mean? There are more things, there are many other factors, but indeed they are related. In fact, some of the athletes who jump the most when you do a vertical countermovement jump, a CMJ, those who jump the most are the sprinters. Just so people can get an idea of the dimension of this, right? Because we are talking about something very normal . Yes, But I lived through the era when measurements had to be taken with Octojump or you had to request a force plate, you had to fill out 1,000 forms, and I was in university when your first MyJump app came out, and since I've always been a very, very big fan of force, I obviously bought it. But, uh, tell us a little bit about what it meant before this app to have to take these measurements. Well, it meant a lot of money. If logically, which is what 99%of people in our situation, students and others, were doing, well, they didn't have the money to buy it themselves. What it meant was, well, many requests to laboratories, permits, uh, very limited time, uh, the option that in most cases they wouldn't let you, uh, take it out of the lab and therefore you had to bring whoever you wanted to measure to the lab. In short, it let's say it made measuring in real-world situations extremely difficult. And being a scientist or a coach, well, fine, but as an NBA trainer before a game, yeah, exactly. For, for example, the vertical jump, how much could a machine to measure it cost us, other than the app? Well, basically the gold standard, or rather the equipment, what measures best, so to speak, the gold standard as it's known, are force plates. There are different models, there are different manufacturers, but we're talking about between 5,000 and 10,000 euros for the, quote-unquote, normal ones. And you're lowballing it, huh? And I'm lowballing it a bit because I know about platforms and these days for 10,000 you don't really have that much either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and what does your app cost us? Well, it depends on the country you're in a little bit due to the exchange rate. It's available in I think it's 140 countries or something like that due to currency exchange and all that, right? But, for example, here in Spain it's, uh, let me get it right, I think it's € 5.99 a month or five point something, uh, 34.99 a year or 119 for life. It's for life. Damn, just imagine. So it is true that, look, it's bad for me to say it, but it's true that it's very cheap compared to Yes. buying a force plate. Well, yeah, getting back to the apps, uh, imagine I want to improve my health or track my health. Yes. What options do we have with your apps? Okay, well, there are many facets related to physical fitness associated with health, but what you can use in MyJumpLab or what you can quantify with MyJumpLab, I think the most relevant is what relates to strength. Mhm. So, probably a combination of a 1RM measurement, or rather an estimate of 1RM based on the speed at which you lift the bar or perform the exercise, and a vertical jump test can be a very good combination. In fact, with older adults, imagine: a population where we know that the benefit of strength training is, it’s probably the population that benefits the most from strength training, older adults. And if they are at a level of functionality that doesn't allow them to jump, then logically, I wouldn't do the jump test, but perhaps simply with the strength section. to be able to see at what speed they perform the exercise and use that to estimate what their maximum strength would be is a very good indicator. In fact, with that app you mentioned, although I later joined them all, as I commented before in MyJumpLab, but when MyLift was a standalone app, we did a study where we measured the speed with MyLift at which they stood up from a chair; I mean, it wasn't a weighted exercise, it was just the time taken to stand from the chair. the time taken to stand from the chair. And we correlated that with other functional tests like a gait test, a handgrip test for manual pressure, cognitive tests. and in a clinical setting like elderly people in a nursing home, and you see good associations and such. Yes, it’s something interesting. And imagine I want to start running, okay? What metric is important and with what application would you measure it? We are not talking about people who already run or are competitive, we are talking about all of us, in fact, myself a year ago. having to start running and, man, I don't know what to measure to track my improvement, nor do I know how to track that the load doesn't get out of hand, for example. Okay, well I think what I would measure is contact time and symmetry between legs, okay? There is another variable that can be measured in the same test, basically just so you get an idea. To measure this, you set up a camera behind you, running on a treadmill for example, and from behind you can see your feet, right? And how they make contact with each stride. So that allows you to see contact times very well and also the asymmetry in those contact times. And there is another metric measured, let's say, in that same plane, meaning filming from behind, okay? which is called contralateral pelvic drop, which is basically filming from behind, from your back, to see how your pelvis tilts. Research shows that if that tilt is over 6 degrees, the risk of common runner's injuries, like iliotibial band syndrome, patellar tendonitis, or Achilles tendonitis, is significantly increased. So, it's a classic metric for monitoring or screening, so to speak, your technique associated with running. And by what mechanism? This is just out of my own curiosity. But, by what mechanism can a pelvic drop put a load on, say, the IT band? I think many people aren't aware of the force produced with every impact, with every single footstrike. I mean, very easily, if you go out for an easy jog and you measure it with a force plate, you're easily looking at two and a half times your body weight. So, if you weigh, let's imagine, 70 kg, then with every step on the ground, you might be dealing with 150 kg of force in a very short time. So, if your pelvis does that drop, what basically happens is that when you strike the ground, the ground strikes you back. That famous law of action and reaction, right? Newton's third law. So you strike downwards. Then that force you used to strike returns upwards and travels through your lower limb all the way to your hip, right? So that is what causes your pelvic tilt to become altered. If you don't have a very stable core, that's what makes that tilt, let's say, very pronounced, and that's what prevents that force from being absorbed well, and therefore, as a result of repetitive stress, etcetera, it can end up leading to an injury. Wow. So as you say, we can't predict it , but this gives us a clue. That's what I was telling you before. Contact times, another clue. Exactly, it’s what I was telling you before, preventing has nothing to do with predicting. Predicting is like taking out a crystal ball or flipping a coin. Eh, but we do have many tools that give us a lot of information. So, predicting , linking back to what we said at the beginning, no one will be able to tell you: "If you do A, B and C or if you measure this, that and the other, in so many days you will get injured," but you do have a lot of information to say : "Here’s a warning sign, here’s a warning sign, here’s a warning sign." Damn, surely all this information is telling me that it’s time to reduce the load, readjust the technique, and make decisions that reduce the probability that I’m going to get injured. And for example, another concept that is talked about a lot and that is also in your apps, I have them, it’s just that I got the lifetime one 7 years ago , but yes. Eh, tell me a bit about what the force-velocity profile or the load-velocity profile is, since you clearly distinguish them. Yes. Very well. Look, I think it is very important to identify the difference between relationship and profile. So, the force-velocity relationship or the force-velocity curve is something that rings a bell for all of us, that one way or another we studied in college or in our degree, whatever, right? And it is basically a, let's say, physiological relationship that occurs in absolutely all human beings, in all muscles, that tells you that the higher the contraction speed, the lower the force produced. In other words, an inverse relationship between force and velocity . More force, less velocity. Just what we were saying before, right? That if you go for a 1RM, you go super slow, you can apply a lot of force, but you can't expect to apply the same force if you run. Exactly. Eh, so that is something that always happens. It is a relationship, it is universal to any human being. The profile is how you individually apply that force-velocity relationship. There are people who are more predominant or have a greater capacity to apply high levels of force, even if they are slower later on. And others who are faster, but apply lower levels of high force. What two types of athletes could represent each one? For example, For example, a sprinter, a speed athlete, is someone who has—or rather , let’s choose another discipline, because sprinters are also very strong people. But imagine a soccer player who can reach 35 km/h in a sprint during a match, but they aren't people who, due to their discipline or their training methods, lift heavy loads. So, here they would have a bias more toward speed, a more speed-oriented athlete, meaning they perform very well with very low loads, but as soon as you give them heavy loads, their performance drops sharply. And within, so as not to stray too far from team sports, if we look at rugby, for example, or American football, you have athletes—or some athletes within that discipline—who aren't as fast, but who do perform very well with higher loads. Maybe they get into the scrum and push really hard, but then as soon as you ask them to run straight, they just can't. Exactly. So, a force-velocity profile helps you identify where your athlete stands, which is key because it helps you identify the optimal areas for training. I always say that, look, we all like to measure ourselves and post the results on social media with pride, and so on, but in reality, the true reason for...training. Right. So, a force-velocity profile helps you make decisions in the sense of: "Okay, I've done the force-velocity profile test, it shows that I have a predominance toward strength and that, for example, I have a deficit in the high-load strength zone; well, that’s where I need to train, to address my deficit." See, if for example I signed up for basketball, Yeah? What profile would I be interested in and how do I develop it? Okay, good question. And this is a bit counterintuitive because there isn't one "ideal" profile per se, like saying a certain sport requires everyone to have a specific deficit, right? In reality, what interests me is that my athlete trains in the zone where they have the greatest deficit. There is a variable very closely associated with physical performance, especially in high-speed actions, which is maximum power. And to address the specific case of basketball, for example, jumping is very important. So, maximum power is very much related to how high I jump, right? So, power is force times velocity, so to improve power, by definition, you just improve force and improve velocity, and that's it, right? Exactly. The problem is that improving everything is very difficult, especially when we are already trained. Yes. And that is where the force-velocity profile is especially relevant because it allows you to identify which of the two components, force or velocity, you can get more out of. So, answering your question, what profile is best for basketball? There is no ideal profile. The ideal thing is to measure each of your players ' profiles and see. One will be weaker in velocity, another will be weaker in force, and you give each one what they need in the area where they are weak and have the most room for gains. Right, I mean, you might find a player who squats 120, but then doesn't jump. And another who jumps a lot, but only squats 60 and can't push any weight. In fact, it happens a lot in basketball because, given the very nature of the game, there are such diverse anthropometric profiles between a point guard and a center, for example, that it's very common to find these things. I mean, it's rare in a sport for everyone to be 100%identical in their profile. Right. For example, if you ask me about soccer, it is true that there is a greater tendency for athletes to be more velocity-oriented with a force deficit. But there are always specific cases. And what could a force deficit mean for a soccer player, for example? Well, basically what it implies, I mean, it doesn't mean that in terms of performance you are necessarily a bad athlete, but above all, as I was saying before, it means you aren't training optimally. Why? Because in soccer specifically, and in team sports in general, there is a bias toward high-velocity training. Due to a misinterpretation of the principle of training specificity. The principle of specificity is interpreted by some as: let's train in a specific way that visually resembles what I do in competition. That was typical before , right? Seeing people in the gym doing this because they played baseball and ... Exactly. Exactly. So, in the context of soccer, if it's a sport where you run with external load and everything is high-speed stuff, then I'm just going to train by doing things without external load and at high speed. The principle of specificity actually tells you that you must, let's say, provide training stimuli that are specific to the gains you want to obtain. In other words, if you want to gain maximum power and in your specific case that gain comes from training in the maximum strength zone, because that is where your deficit is, that is specific to you because it is exactly what you need . Sure. So, in the context of soccer, well, and in many others really, the force-velocity profile helps determine if you have a greater deficit, in this case in the maximum strength zone, so you can reorient training priorities and, perhaps, stop doing so much high-speed work and incorporate more powerlifter-style training. Sure, but I was referring more to what consequences it might have. I mean, hey, I'm a soccer player, well, we're going to see how a profile is identified, since we haven't said it yet, but, gee, I have a strength deficit, how am I going to notice it or in what part of the game will I see it or what consequences might it have? Okay, well generally in the acceleration phase, we all know, without having studied physics or having delved into biomechanics and such, that law that maybe we don't know by the name of Newton's second law, but it's force equals mass times acceleration, right? So, if you have your mass and during the match you weigh what you weigh, you don't lose it, perhaps due to sweating in very specific contexts, but we're not going to split hairs, right? So, your mass is your mass. By definition, if you want to accelerate, you have to increase the force. Accelerating is changing your speed. If you are stopped or have gone in one direction and have changed direction, that is, you have braked, in the braking there is a moment that, even if it's for a few milliseconds, by definition you are at zero speed, you have to start again. There you need a great application of force. Oh, and in fact, explosiveness, as it is known, is something highly demanded by soccer players. It is interesting for very fast people. Exactly. And and it is now when they realize that instead of running, jumping, you have to move weight. Exactly. So, that ability to apply a lot of force quickly to change speed in soccer, above all, isn't just accelerating anymore, but accelerating, decelerating, and changing direction. Well, as you were saying, where would that strength deficit be seen? Well, generally in changes of direction and re-accelerations, that is to say, that ability to go very fast, brake very fast, and change direction again very fast. And that is primarily a strength task. And I imagine also, looking at how injuries occur in soccer, that it must also have to do with injuries. Extremely. Because in accelerations, a huge number of injuries occur in soccer. Exactly. Look, right now, we just came from recording while Madrid was playing Rayo. Yeah? Uh, and Bellingham tore his hamstring in a max-speed action, but he tore his hamstring at the point where hamstring injuries are most prevalent or predominant, which is in the eccentric phase of the stride. Meaning, when you're moving your legs at full tilt and you have to brake to plant your foot for the next stride, in that moment of... rapid eccentric braking, absorption. Exactly. And that's where most of them happen. So, the folks at Madrid should hear this, but if he were to train with MyJumpLab... Well, there isn't any tool, by any means, that, as we said before, helps you prevent 100%of injuries, but it is true that everything that helps you gather information and have......and have more information to know what your deficits are or what your points for improvement are, well, it certainly reduces the risk. Let's talk now about what's left, which is how a force-velocity profile is calculated, okay? Okay, well, technically you can calculate it in any exercise with the right equipment like a force plate, basically because the force plate measures how much force, velocity, and power you are generating for every load you perform. The vertical jump force-velocity profile model has become popularized because it was proven 10 or 15 years ago by renowned biomechanists like Samozino and JB Morin. Some will recognize the names. That you can measure the force-velocity profile through vertical jump tests, which is very convenient because you don't have to lift maximum weights or need a force plate, but rather, in this case, you grab your phone, record some jumps, and that's it , right? So, from a 100%practical standpoint, in the case of My Jump, you need to perform a four-jump test. So, you do a normal jump, a CMJ with your body weight, hands on hips, you do a vertical jump, down, up, down, up, that's it, right? You rest for a couple of minutes, then add some weight. The way to add weight, the original way it was validated, was with a barbell like for squats and jumping like that. For people not used to that, it’s also validated and reliable to do it with a trap bar, for example, uh, so, well, you keep adding load. So, a super practical example, like a recipe, although I don't really like recipes, right? But uh there are always individual differences, but for example , an athlete who jumps around, imagine, 40 to 45 cm in a CMJ with no weight, usually tolerates an increase in load very well, a test like jumping with zero, 20, 40, and 60 kg. Sure. So you measure those four jumps with those four loads, and after finishing the test, the app gives you the graphs and values and so on, it explains whether you are more force-biased or if you have more of a force deficit or a velocity deficit. Okay, and with that, I can identify where my player's shortcomings are. Exactly. Exactly. Before moving on to talk a little bit about you personally, I would like to talk a bit about the future of your applications or, well, what's coming next. Uh, what do you think in 10 years —well, now looking back, because your apps have been around for a while? Yes, that's true. Uh, 2016, I was already in college. I think that's right when the first validation paper for your... The very, very first one was 2015, but it’s right there, almost. Yes, sure. Well, exactly. And that's right when we downloaded the application. And looking back, I didn't imagine back then that they would do everything they do today. Yeah. So, what will they do in 10 years that we can't imagine right now? Well, as you said, if you had asked me 10 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to tell you they could do what they do today. To tell you the truth, I don't know, but I know where I want them to go. I don't know if it will be achieved or not, but not just MyJump, but sports technology in general, I think where it's trying to evolve is to be able to measure without the athlete even knowing they're being measured. Wow. In other words, that it’s non-invasive, that it doesn't require lab equipment, that it doesn't mean putting markers on your body or doing complex calibrations. So, everything related to artificial intelligence— but not the typical kind we all know from asking a chat, but rather AI for pattern recognition, image recognition, and so on. In fact, nowadays MyJump already does that to detect the bar, for example, and see what you're measuring, uh, or to detect how high you jump. There’s an AI function that detects your body and measures your jump, right ? And that’s been around for a couple of years now. Uh, where is this going? Well, it's evolving to allow for much more precise measurement of isolated joints to see ranges of motion at every moment. That is, not only, let's say in the case of a squat, for example, not just the speed at which your whole body or the bar moves, but exactly each joint, especially in more complex actions because, quote-unquote, a squat is something very easy. Yes. What’s really difficult is, for example, a sprint where you're running at 8 meters per second, which is full speed, with many joints interacting in a very complex way. Uh, and being able to detect that with video, being able to detect that—where I think this is going, and where it's definitely heading, and where I've already done my little experiments when I went to Apple and all that—is with augmented reality glasses, which is basically, for those who don't know, using glasses where you see the athlete, but you see digital layers superimposed on things. Phew! Yes, I still remember the MyJump from back then, which is MyJump, yes, where you had to indicate when the movement started, indicate which frame it started on, which frame it ended on, and it did it very well. It did it very well. And now you don't even need that anymore; you just record a video and that's it, you forget about it. So, damn, it has advanced. So, that is where I would like this to go. Yes. Mm. Talking about you and all the work you've done, which has brought you here , Uh, how is it being a university professor and an entrepreneur at the same time? A curious combination. Yes, honestly I'm delighted because I have the great fortune to be able to do something I'm passionate about. But it's true that it hasn't always been easy, especially when the first application came out, around 2015 and so on. It's true that from an academic point of view—and back then I wasn't even a professor or anything, I was just finishing my thesis— well, it's true I encountered quite a lot of friction from the status quo, so to speak. In what sense? In the sense that "this can't possibly measure accurately,""this is a toy.""No real athlete is going to want to be measured with a mobile phone because that's not serious, right?" And then you went to the NBA. And then the NBA called me. Yes, yes. Carlos Alcaraz just won the Australian Open today. Carlos, for example, uses MyJump. Come on. So, yes, Carlitos there. So, it's true that at the beginning it was...I'd be lying if I told you it was easy, because some of those who were my big role models—and well, still are— didn't exactly look favorably upon something so disruptive; because, basically, you were going from lab equipment worth thousands of euros to " I'll record a video with my phone." Right. So in that sense, it was complicated. But I'll also tell you that the vast majority, not only of sports professionals or strength coaches and such, but the vast majority of the academic field, it is true it took more time, but they ended up validating the applications, and that is, in fact, probably the reason why MyJump is known today. I mean, the fact that it's not like I invented something and I'm selling you a dream and telling you it does such and such and you just believe it, but rather that today there are between 20 and 30 validation papers from research groups in different parts of the world, totally independent, from several continents, over 10 years, that have systematically verified its validity with lab instruments and things always turn out well, truthfully . So, the academic community has gradually been adopting the method. Exactly. And what I’m most proud of, actually, isn't even that there are so many validation studies (sometimes I even joke, "damn, another one, man? It wasn't even necessary anymore"), but what I really like is seeing studies where I get an alert on PubMed for the keyword My Jump or something like that. Uh, not because it's a validation study , but because it’s a research study. And you go to the, you go to the methods section, to the equipment, and the equipment they use is MyJumpLab. That's great. Yeah. And that, honestly, is, it’s really exciting. Fair enough, fair enough. Uh, and one thing that surprises me, because I have followed your career a bit since we know people in common and such, is why you’ve never decided to drop one of the two things. Yes. I mean, I don't know if there is a reason to say, right? Whether it's academic, economic, or I don't know. Why have you never decided to leave one of the two things, or being a professor , or the apps? Well look, in the first place, when I started, let's say the balance has been, uh, shifting from one side to the other, right? At the beginning, when no one knew about it and when I had, it’s true that it was the toughest moment, so to speak, in which I kind of reconsidered, I said: " Damn, maybe if everyone is going in one direction, uh, maybe it’s true that I’m the one going in the opposite direction, right?" You mean because all of academia was like, getting gear is expensive stuff, and you were like, let's try to make this easier. Yes, but not just that, they would tell you, this isn't going to work. Or they would ridicule you. There is a quote I like a lot, without getting too deep, as I'm not much for quotes, but there’s a Gandhi quote I like a lot that said, uh, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, and then you have won. And I identify a lot with that because it has been 100%my path in this case. First, I remember, there were times when I would send, when I launched the app at the beginning, I would send it to some professor, me all motivated, and they wouldn't even answer me. Sure. Then they would make fun of it. Yeah, for sure. you with a phone, whatever, then they'd bring out pseudo-studies trying to discredit your app when the whole scientific community was already heading in the other direction. And then, well, well, I've reached where I am right now at this moment, so , uh, well, I'm proud of how the story turned out, like this. And why haven't you decided? Hey, Apple invited you to an event. They didn't invite me. Friends of mine who've made apps didn't get invited either. So why don't you decide to say, "Hey, I'll focus on the app's roadmap or, hey , I'll focus on my university career?" Sure, like I said, at the beginning I was about to quit the app because it took time, I mean, don't let anyone think it was overnight luck, or that it's something multimillion-dollar or anything like that, right? But, uh, it took maybe two or three years to start, uh, making a profit. I didn't quit the app because it's always been a hobby and I've loved it and I still do. And that feeling of making something myself in my own damn house with a computer and that's it, and having it turn into something people use, I love it. And as it became more popular and, and made more money and such, well, why not quit university? Well, first of all, and most importantly, because I like what I do, uh, because I like researching, because I like teaching new, uh, generations, and because I can balance it. So, if I understand correctly, you wouldn't have to work at the university because you could already live off the apps. Well, if we look at it from an economic standpoint, effectively, yes, yes, yes. That's very good. From the entrepreneur's point of view, which I've also learned, that you don't want to leave what you started with, because now it's the academic world that you started with and you're still there. I think it's something very beautiful because it's happened to me and to many people I've known, when you become a business owner you only think about strategies, numbers, the market, and without meaning to, you start disconnecting. I mean, it's not something you look for because I'm still passionate about fitness and I'm a user, but you don't have the same feelings you had before. Look, I really identify with a quote from, yeah, damn it. But anyway, it’s not just some poster-worthy quote; it’s from a guy I really like, Javier Santaolalla, who’s a physicist and a top-tier science communicator. And he said something like that in a podcast, along the lines of, "I’ve never chased money; money has chased me," meaning I just do what I love, and I don't really know why, but people have liked it too, and it’s allowed me to make a living. Logically, I’m not at a billionaire level, but it’s true that, little by little, from just me, my mom, and four friends downloading it, to now where it’s true that it gives me more money than the university—well, it’s true that it’s something I’ve never pursued: like obsessing over a strategy and saying, "I’m going to focus all my efforts here, I’m going to quit university to focus on this." Instead, I’ve tried to balance those two paths that I love, and well, it’s been growing, damn. That’s great. What’s the process like for releasing an app? I mean, you’re a CAFID graduate in the end, who knows what they want to achieve, but ultimately, an app needs to be programmed. Yes. What’s that process like? Do you have a team, or do you do it all yourself? How is it? Okay, well, I do it all myself. Damn, but it’s true that it’s more, quote-unquote, impressive that it was back then than it is now, because back then it took a lot for me to learn to program. Mm. Basically, what I did when I had the original idea for My Jump was to contact engineers, and they asked for a lot of money, like , "This app you have in mind,""costs € 40,000." Right. We’re talking about, you know, 10 or 11 years ago. So I said, "Well, look, forget it, I’m going to learn, I’ll see if I can manage to do it myself." Did you buy a Python manual that costs 10? No, but I took an online course that cost me € 10 on some website; I don't even remember the name, and I learned how to program. So, with zero expectations, just as a hobby. In fact, the original My Jump, the first app, was free; I mean, I didn't make any money from it, I just wanted to spread this, let's say, new way of measuring performance and such. And so, the process was, I learned how to program, eh, I made a developer account, right? Which basically, at a company level, if you look at it from a business standpoint, the cost is ridiculous because it's basically 99 euros a year. Sure. And that's basically my only expense, and then yes, a lot of my time. What I invested is a lot of my time. I was saying that it's more impressive, in quotes, or maybe not impressive because everyone can learn to program, but more overwhelming, so to speak, if you start from zero. Sure, 10 years ago than it is now, because now basically 99%of the code is done for you by artificial intelligence. So, if you have an idea, if you have some programming basics, artificial intelligence will do 99%of the code and and I think that I don't mean that everyone has to be a programmer or that everyone has to launch apps. I'm really all for people being multidisciplinary and working in teams, and if you don't know something, rely on someone else who does. But if you have an idea, or if someone listening to us has an idea, don't just shut the door on, you know, doing it yourself, because there is no better time than right now to learn to program . It's also true that as you advance in your career as a businessman, entrepreneur, call it what you want, you have more resources to invest, so right now I'm not planning on starting from zero. In fact, I have more businesses in mind and what I'm going to do is hire people to build them, because I can't do what I did at the beginning, which was getting into developing my first programming Excel, then the first programming software, then setting up a physical center and putting in 12 hours a day there. I'm not going to do that anymore. Sure, but having done it has given you a lot of perspective. Yes, totally. And it's a beautiful thing at that moment, right? But even more so later on because you learn what a business is from the inside and you know how things are. Yes. And you value it. But anyway, what's it like to be an entrepreneur in fitness? Yeah, and I know you don't make a living from it, but you've indirectly started a business in fitness. To tell you the truth, I have no idea. I mean, people often ask me, and, look, it's true, and I truly appreciate it from the bottom of my heart that they see me as, I don't know , an example of success or whatever you want to call it, but it's true that I'm very amateur, man. I'm very amateur in the sense that I don't spend money on marketing, I don't do anything. Yeah. I make my app and I put out a tweet or a post on Instagram, and now I try to be a bit more active, mostly making tutorials, teaching people quickly how it can be used and all that, but I don't have a plan as such, or a strategy. So, what is it like to be an entrepreneur? Well, I mean, in my case, it's fantastic and it's, quote-unquote, easy because everything has come 100% organically. In fact, the other day I looked at a statistic—I'm not one to look at stats in, let's say, the console, the Apple dashboard to see your app. Right. And then I saw it was crazy. I don't know if 97%of the people who downloaded the app did so because they searched for it in the App Store, not because it came from some link or marketing thing, but because you go into the App Store because you already know it exists, you know you want it, you type in its name and hit download. Right. So, in my case, in that sense, it's been easy; it's difficult in Spain because of everything that has to do with the self-employment system and everything related to, well, taxes and so on, right? It's something people have to keep in mind, because in the end, it's true that entrepreneurship itself is difficult because you face the market, you face competitors, your product might not be liked, even if there's high demand, people might not consume it because it didn't quite hit the product-market fit for whatever reason. But of course, then there's the more bureaucratic side, which is the one you're referring to, which is really a pain, let's be honest, and they don't make it easy for us. Yes, that's where I've had the most trouble, because, well, because of Zero knowledge, since you have to hire managers and work with experts who advise you on entrepreneurship, precisely because one of the shortcomings, not even in the university system, but in the educational system since we are small, is the lack of financial training, right? So, all these kinds of things, you learn them as you go along. That's exactly why I wanted to ask you, how do you see things for future physical activity and sports science graduates? What career paths do you think they have? Are they going to live well? Are there opportunities? Are there not? Are they graduating prepared? Are they not? Give me a bit of an overview of the university system regarding sports science, because you have been through both public and private institutions. I think you have perspective in that sense. Well, I have a duality. I am on one hand optimistic, and on the other, I won't say pessimistic, but realistic. So, what I always usually tell students is that, for example, just in the Community of Madrid, if I'm not mistaken, I think there are 10 universities that offer sports science degrees. So, there are opportunities. The problem is that I'm not entirely clear if the average student graduating from a university, whether public or private, with the training we provide, which is limited, is prepared to compete with so many people out there, with so many, with so many different profiles. So, I am optimistic in the sense that physical activity and sports science is certainly a beautiful and tremendously broad profession, because you can be anything from a fitness trainer or high-performance coach to working with cancer patients. Have you had Mario Redondo here or also greetings to Mario, a great guy, or, I don't know, working with the elderly or being a director of sports centers? I mean, it's very, very broad; there are so many job opportunities. The problem is that there are many of us, or rather, there are many of them. So, the key is to find quality training and to keep training constantly. I mean , I think that idea we had in our parents' generation—that you finish a degree and you're fully trained—is one we have to get out of our heads. The market has changed a lot, hasn't it ? Yes, the market has changed a lot. You have to constantly educate yourself to provide added value, because not that long ago—for the people listening to us now who are about to enter college, teenagers or people in their early 20 s—it might surprise them, so to speak. But not that many years ago, having a college degree was like, "Damn, they have a degree." It was a guarantee and sure, and yet, nowadays it isn't. Mm. So I think that's why I'm telling you it's a duality. On one hand, I’m optimistic in the sense that it’s increasingly proven, let’s say, and there’s growing social awareness of the massive beneficial effects exercise has in many areas, and therefore, there are more business opportunities for us to start companies or work in a thousand places; but on the other hand, there are more of us too. So, you have to find a way to stay updated with quality information and so on. It’s true that I see a market that never stops growing. The rate at which it’s growing is crazy. Yeah. And what I’m seeing is that whatever you open, it works as long as you have a certain level and provide value. Yeah, yeah, it works. And I’m seeing it with many friends of mine who have started businesses and with myself. It's insane . Yeah. So, I think it’s a good moment because it's true that there is competition, but it’s growing a lot. Yeah, I think that balance between the number of people competing and the number of people demanding fitness services in general is still very much in our favor . Totally. Yes. To wrap up, you mentioned that what we do in sports science degrees is limited , and I agree because I also teach in that field. If you were the Minister of Education, Oh, please, no. Here comes another Gandhi quote. What would you change to try to improve what sports science degrees are like today? I don’t mean specific universities, but the sports science system itself. Damn, that’s a very complex question, man. It’s very complex. Yeah, it’s very complex. And the most honest thing I can tell you is: I don’t know. What I do know is that, for one, there should be more capacity for specialization in the sector that interests you most. For—well, not me. For us, for example , at the Autonomous University of Madrid, the profile we have is generalist. uh, but then the fourth year is by track. So, one goes into training, another into health, another goes; but in reality, the study plans could be greatly improved, for example, for all of us who were passionate about training...it happened to you, it happened to me. When I was studying, I always had that feeling of: "I'm graduating and I haven't got a damn clue about training." Right, because there was very little emphasis on training and such. That's still the case. to a certain extent it's being, uh, mitigated. We, not only us, but some other faculties, you guys, etc., uh, well, they are mitigating that. But I want to go to bat for, man, and maybe I’m not saying I’m being controversial here, but perhaps a little against the grain. I want to go to bat for generalization. Yes, let me explain. When I was a student, I was fed up with the body expression classes. What is this good for? For example, dance and body expression. It's true. Everyone. What is this good for? Well, today I think it has served me very well. Yes. Not because I dance in my university classes, but because it is increasingly proven that people with a very broad background have the ability to perform and produce, and that the hyper-specialization boom is breaking down. I consider that the hyper-specialization boom responds to a concrete market demand. Totally. I am partly glad that at Cenation we made the decision to make a sports science degree focused on fitness and high performance because it is something that most of us inside would have liked, as you say. But I am very glad to also hear contrary opinions because, in the end, it is important that we learn from people who have been here a long time and, well, opinions always lead us to good places, and you, having gone through both entrepreneurship and university work, it's interesting. Yes, because it's a market economy and we live off production. Sure, but I'm not telling you that hyper-specialization isn't important, but rather that there, I see it a lot in students, especially those who are very motivated, which on the other hand are the ones I like the most, because I was like them, Uh, the ones who are very motivated in training and so on, I try to calm them down a bit in the sense of: Alright, I would also like for there to be more, uh, more participation in training, but don't look down on fields that have nothing to do with your discipline. Because, for example, without going any further, it’s becoming increasingly clear, especially in the era of artificial intelligence, how soft skills—meaning your ability to communicate, your ability to express yourself, to, uh, present an idea, and I connect that with body language, which is what body language should be. Even though many of us at university just spent our time messing around, but body language, exactly, or technically, it should be that. It’s exactly what I’ve experienced. I’ve also been through that, going to sociology and just sitting there like this. And only because it was mandatory. If it hadn't been mandatory, you wouldn't even show up to class. Dance, body language, the same thing. You went in with a long face, thinking, "Man, instead of learning, uh, what happens with muscle acidosis when you do more than 15 reps, I'm here doing this stuff that doesn't interest me." And wow. So, what I mean is that it’s important to hyper-specialize in something that you're passionate about, and in our case, fitness and training are very important, but don't disparage other fields. Because they can enrich you a lot in many areas, and life is very long; when you first graduate and you're in a gym, you're fully focused on that, but maybe you evolve, and other things that are a bit outside of what you studied are the ones that end up connecting you. There’s a legendary speech that everyone has heard, in the field of training, Steve Jobs at Stanford University, where he talked about connecting the dots. So, for example, it’s very famous when Steve Jobs said that in college he was a bit bored— saving the differences, logically, because we aren't Steve Jobs—but it’s a bit of the same thing, he was bored with the subjects he was taking, and the guy decided to take calligraphy classes. I mean, what the hell does calligraphy have to do with computer science? Well, thanks to those calligraphy classes where he learned about typography and such, he managed to make the Mac with the first typefaces instead of the typical green Matrix-style font, changing the fonts, right? Changing the fonts. It was the first computer that had beautiful typographic fonts, and it changed the world of computing. So it's a radical example because there's a Steve Jobs once every million years, right? But but it's an example to show people like, okay, you can hyper-specialize in something, but open your open your mind and your field , and don't close off other disciplines that might seem completely foreign to you at first. Carlos, well thank you so much for coming, it’s been a great pleasure, a very pleasant chat, hasn't it?