And today's guest on the financial planner life podcast is Jay Dalowell. She is a chartered financial planner for Chase TV. And we go deep into what it's like to give advice to the British Medical Association, doctors and surgeons and nurses. And we talk about the NHS pension scheme, just what it's like to really work within a specific niche as a financial planner. And recently we've had the Macau judgement where a lot of doctors have received remedial service statements. And if I've helped one client with theirs, you often kind of get past the details of another person that needs help with a similar issue. We also talk about the hints and tips that she's got for you to get ahead in your financial planning career. The things that she had to do to show resilience because she got knocked back a few times when it came to securing her dream job as a financial planner. Don't just stop at the diploma. Um, if you're worried about age, um, or even gender or ethnicity or if you've got that technical ability that allows you to speak to clients and provide and add value, then that's essentially what matters. You're going to love this episode. If you're looking for career inspiration, so Jay, thank you so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast. How are you? I'm good, thanks. How are you? I'm right, mate. Number podcast number four today. So, I've got a bit of podcast fatigue. Um, or sometimes I hit the fourth mark. Sometimes I record eight in a day and sometimes I hit the fourth mark and I get a bit of energy. So, right now I'd probably say got a bit of energy actually. A little bit of fatigue. That sounds good. More more energy. So, good to have you on and I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for some time. Obviously, we're part of a little group, aren't we, on WhatsApp with um a number of other financial planners, Vic and um Paul Bradley and Paul Taylor and all the rest of the goons in there. And um we obviously share lots of insight and everything and you're in there as well. So, I've got to know you a bit better, which is great. And um you've never done a podcast, so here we are today on your first ever podcast. Yeah, never done a podcast. Feeling very nervous, a little bit excited. also a little bit scared. So, we'll see how it goes. Hopefully, it's all right. You You're quite experienced, so I'm sure you look after me. There we go. I will I will try my best to look after you, so don't you worry about that. Okay, cool. So, Jay, it's all about careers within financial planning, and we're trying to attract new talent. We're trying to attract young people into the profession, second careerists, more women for example. First off, let's just talk a little bit about your journey and how you ended up getting into financial planning. So, where did it all start? Um so for me I studied economics at the University of Leicester. Um but after that I had absolutely no idea what it was that I wanted to do. I applied for a number of graduate schemes with um kind of the big four accountancy firms and just kind of you know those traditional routes that were kind of out there. Um but nothing really stuck and I found myself doing a lot of client facing roles. um working in events, kind of festivals, customer service, that kind of thing. And after two years or so, um I ended up at Wesian working as a um data entry kind of person. So I was just putting in I didn't know what I was doing at that time actually. It's quite funny looking back now. It was just the lead forms that they would get from their events. So it was putting that data into their system. So they used a system called CDS at the time. Um, so it's just putting that into the system and I did that for for a couple of weeks. But it was actually the company culture at Wesian that I really really liked and I thought this is a company that I can actually see myself working in and building a career in. Um, so I applied for a permanent role as a pensions administrator. Um, so I started that in July 2015. Um, and then that's kind of where my career in financial services started. So I kind of fell into it. There you go. So along with pretty much everybody else I speak to on the podcast. No one says I, you know, when I grow up, I want to be a financial planner. Most people fall into it. And it's data entry that took you in. And that's important. Like a lot of people think, well, I want to become a financial planner, so I'm going to look for a trainy financial planner role. Where actually there's a lot of other entry points to get yourself into it. And often when you start in financial services, especially when you're younger, and you start in financial services, you're getting into a company. I used to work for Aviva and I can tell you right now there must be about 10 people I can think of right now who joined when I joined and we were on the telephones talking to customers about their pensions and their investments and they wanted valuations and really angry IFAS calling up saying why is it taking so long you know give me this pension transfer value at the time I didn't really kind of know what we were up to there must be about 10 people that I know now who started that way and are now financial planners I mean one of the guys I know in Bristol has probably got about half a billion. So it just shows you starting at an entry point within any kind of financial services company at any role can lead up the ladder to a career within financial planning and it's something that financial planning companies will look for. They will look for somebody who's got a bit of financial services experience and knowledge already. So that's useful. So Wesian culture liked it got into the old pensions administration. At that point did you think I want to be a financial planner? Um, so I started as a pensions administrator in July 2015 and it was probably about six months into the role. So I was that person on the phones assisting clients with their queries and I often found myself getting frustrated that I could only give information. I couldn't give the advice and I'd often speak to Wesley and financial adviserss. And I kind of thought after about six months, this is a job that I could probably do. So I then started to put a plan together of how I could get that job in the future. So that's when I started doing my training. Um and I also got promoted quite quickly as well. Um I was promoted to deputy team manager within about six months as well. So that happened around March March um 2016 I think it was. And then I thought this is this could potentially lead somewhere. So I did all of my exams. Um I also converted my BSE economics degree into credits which helped towards my diploma and also achieving chartered status. Um and then yeah um got my diploma I think it was in August 2017. So that's when I got the diploma. Brilliant. So anybody listening to this right now if you have a specific type of degree you can cash it in essentially for points towards your level four diploma right? Yeah you can. You have to pay for the privilege. I think it cost me about three. Yeah, it cost me about £300£350 I think at the time, but I got 25 credits at diploma level and then 30 credits at advanced diploma level. So if you've got a related degree, you have to do it in a certain time period as well. Um, but that's also worth looking into. So I can see from LinkedIn you worked as a power planner. So you were working at Weslin as a power planner. Just tell us a little bit about that job role. Did that give you further exposure to the process of financial planning? Was it beneficial as well to be a power planner before you eventually, we'll talk about that in a bit, became a became a financial planner? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I became a power planner at Wesian in January 2018. Um, I did try to become a financial adviser just before that. I tried to kind of jump straight from admin to advising and I'll go into that a little bit later. Um, but my manager at the time, her name was Kieran Johal. Um, we're still in contact. Um, and she was really good at advancing people within their careers. So, I made it very known to her probably whilst I was studying towards the diploma that I wanted to become a financial adviser. Um, and she actually pushed me to shadow existing adviserss whilst I was training um, and and kind of studying to become a financial adviser. So there are a couple financial adviserss Lee Quinn we're still connected on LinkedIn and I see quite regularly he was the first one that I shadowed another one called Jonathan Halberta um and I think it was all of that experience and then also writing the reports understanding the financial planning process um and I think once you once you go through those roles so administrating um par planning and then becoming an adviser it really just helps you to become a very well-rounded adviser you can also kind of connect with people that are working in those roles and it just it just helps you I think to just be better. So a lot of people when they step into a power planner role um they find it quite challenging sometimes to go from power planning into financial advice um one have you experienced that two and why? Um I think it's probably it just seems quite scary, isn't it? Going from a back office uh power planning role to then being right in front of the client and kind of speaking to them, building that relationship and becoming a financial advisor. Um, I think more than anything it was probably my time on the phones as a pensions administrator that probably helped me the most. That I didn't realize it at the time, but it was that time speaking to clients on a daily basis where I actually refined my skills. Um, but I think that is necessary. You need to just kind of get that confidence to go out and see people and speak to them. And you will probably make mistakes in your early days. is I mean I've probably made some mistakes and a lot of people probably have. Um but it's also kind of again refining that and learning from the experience. So when you were stepping up then and moving forward into a financial planner role, you were applying I suppose internally for Wesian. I assume you ended up getting a job at Wesian as a financial planner. Is that right or not? No. So it's a a bit of an interesting story. Um but I got my diploma in 2017. It was known to my manager at the time and HR at the time that I wanted to become a financial adviser there. I was shadowing um and they allowed me to do that which I was really really grateful for because I I gained a lot of experience from that and learned a lot. Um but when I got my diploma in 2017, I was actually told that I needed to then wait a year. So instead of moving into the role um kind of straight away, I was told to wait a year for the graduate trainee program that Wesian were launching in 2018. Um, so I decided to do that, but in the meantime, I think I waited a few months and then I reflected on everything and I thought actually I might have a look at what other options are out there. Um, so it was October 2017 that I initially had uh kind of interviewed at Chase Deve um because I thought you know I can wait a year or I can try now. So I thought I'd try my luck and Chase Deve seemed like a really good company as well. They were independent. they had that kind of um medical specialization that I'm now into. Um but yeah, so I I interviewed at Chase Deve in October 2017, went through the advice process um or interview process and then also was rejected. So they said I actually needed so that was at the point that I was an administrator. So we're trying to go from admin straight to advising and they said to me actually Jay you've got a lot of skills and you've got a lot of drive but we just think you need some more experience. So that's what led me to then get the power planning role at Wesian and that's kind of the trajectory you should follow in your career anyway. So it's the natural kind of stepping stones to advising I'd say. Um so we're in 2018 um a power planner at Wesian. The graduate traininee role comes up. I apply for it. Um, I don't know what it is, but it's something about assessment centers where I just crumble under the pressure. It happened when I graduated from university. It happened again then. I don't know what it was, but I think I let all the nerves get to me and I just crumbled in that advice pro in that interview process. Um, and again, I wasn't successful. So, I posted about it really honestly on LinkedIn. I'd already connected with the area manager and the regional manager of Chase Deve from the year before when I interviewed um and I just posted really honestly and just said look I've applied for the Wesian Advisor Academy. Um I've not been successful but I'm hopeful that one day in the future I will get to where I want to be. Um and then I think some of the managers saw that and this is the power of LinkedIn. um they kind of saw that and then a few months later um they offered me um a chance to interview again for a role that was available. So towards the end of the year, I think it was around October, November 2018, I went back and I interviewed and then I was actually offered a job the same day. So it just kind of moved really quickly. Um but that's kind of my journey into advising. So rejected twice, once by Wesley and once by Chase Deir, but uh kind of eventually found my way here. In hindsight, thanks for sharing that. It's quite honest as well. You know, not everyone's going to share the fact that they got rejected at interviews, but I think it's the reality of looking around for jobs, right? No one always gets the job they want first of all. Um, and sometimes the feedback when you don't get a job is powerful because it puts you on the right trajectory in the right path to being able to secure a job the next time because you should have feedback that gives you the ability to recognize where perhaps you're not ready um and you need to put a little bit of work and a little bit of effort in or gain some further experience. Experience is powerful, right? In hindsight, looking back on that, were they right or were they wrong? Um, it's a really good point that you make Sam because I made it very clear when I initially interviewed at Chase that I really wanted that feedback. Regardless of whether I was successful, unsuccessful, it was the feedback that I needed because the opportunities to become a traininee financial advisor back then were much slimmer than they are now. I think it's something that everyone's trying to work on, but back then the roles were very, very few and far between. So, I needed to know what it was that I could have done to be better and also successful in the future. Um, when I got that call from the recruiter that said I wasn't successful, there was no feedback with it. And then that's why I went on to LinkedIn, tracked down who it was that interviewed me and that's how I got my feedback. I went there, I was like, you promised me the feedback. I need this feedback. I got the feedback and I guess that's where the relationship kind of started with me and Chase. It was through that process. Um to answer your question, reflecting on it, I actually think it was the right decision. Um because I highly value my time spent as an administrator and then power planning. I do really find that it made me more of a well-rounded adviser because I then had to start writing my own reports when I first started as an adviser at Taste of Beer. I now get power planning report uh supports. I'm quite kind of lucky in that sense. But when I first started, I had to write all my reports. And I think I know the statistics of this because I did a presentation at the Chase conference um the advisor conference in 2024 and the staff conference in 2025 um where I spoke about it and it was in 2021 I actually wrote over 175 advisor reports within the year and then to do that as well as advising it's just there's a lot of things that advising entails. So I think if your skill set is strong in all of these different areas, it will do nothing but help you. Do you have to have a bit of resilience to write 175 reports? Because not all reports will convert to client new clients, for example. Right. So is it sometimes when you're writing them, are you kind of like, oh god, you know, are you putting a million, you know, that that 100% effort into every time or are you or or you picking and choosing specific reports to put 100% effort in? career based on the relationship you have with the client. How does that how does that work? How do you how do you how do you structure your time to the energy required for a report that could not turn into business? Yeah, honestly, Sam, um it's a suitability report, so it has to be official. You can't spend more time on one than the other. You have to do them all kind of you have to do them all to a certain standard. Um I remember in that year I actually I think it was from January 1st. I didn't take a day off until April bank holiday weekend apart from one or two Sundays. So I worked every single Monday to Friday, most Saturdays, most evenings. And I was kind of on this path where I was determined to be successful. Um I think the year before um I was going through a lot of stuff in my personal life. So my parents were divorcing the bank of mom and dad just it never existed for me. It was it was kind of it kind of pushed me probably to to be more determined to be successful. Um so I just knew that I had to kind of make something of myself and kind of build myself up to be successful. So I was committed to working evenings full-time weekends whatever it was that needed to be done. I was kind of there doing it all. when I was the same. I know there's no banker mum and dad in the Oaks household either. It was just get out and do it and you know work it out, Sam. You know, it was there was never there was never a hand out. And I used to I used to look at my friends and like buying these lovely houses and and I was like, where are you getting the deposit? Oh, mom and dad would give me the deposit. And I used to be so negged out like it really really negged me out like how like hard it was how hard it was to get a house yet friends of mine were not working as hard of me but were getting these beautiful houses that were then doubling up in value over a 10 year period and I was just still struggling to buy a house. I hated that. Did that that did that kind of determine was that part of did because with me at 43 now that was part of my driver for a long time was actually the house and and it wasn't the keeping up with the Joneses element. It was just that I wanted that security but I suppose there was a bit of a keeping up with the Joneses though. There was a bit of a I'm going to miss out. I'm going to miss out if I don't do it or I'm not as successful because I don't have a house or perceived to be as successful because I don't have a house. So it definitely affected me in my in my um my mindset and my um my drive. Yeah. As well. And also just how I how I how I perceived myself and perceived others, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely get that. I think for me it's just um I knew that didn't exist. So there was no safety net for me. And there still is no safety net for me. And I've got a younger brother and a younger sister. My sister's okay. She's an accountant for Deote. a lot of people probably know her because she's quite big in the accountancy world. And then I've got a younger brother. He's 20 in his last year of university and I do help support him. So it it's one of those where I just needed to be at a level where I was also secure but also so I can look after my siblings as well. Um so I think that's probably my main driver is just yeah creating that security. Wow. So you you're literally taking on almost a parenting role a little bit. I mean there is 12 years between me and my brother. So I do feel like his third parent in a way. But yeah, he's going to Camp America and I'm going to help him with it and and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I do. I do just I'm I'm there for my things. Love it. So tell me a little bit about the step then over to Chase Deve and finally getting that financial advisor role. Was it a traininee role? Was it what did it look like? And what was the first year look like? And did reality match the expectation? Yeah. Um, the first year was a bit of a bumpy ride. Um, Chase Deere were fantastic. They gave me all the training that I needed. I'm now an expert on the NHS pension and that's really helped me within my role to kind of get that specialization and attract new clients and that kind of thing. So, I had all the training that I needed. Um, I think it was my third observation that I had. The first uh first first two client meetings went okay, but the third client meeting was one that was really embarrassing and I also felt quite humiliated after it. Um so there was a lady um that had requested an appointment. So Chase deve do complimentary review meetings for clients. So we don't get paid on the first meeting. We just go out see see the client um and do the factf finding session. So it was just supposed to be a factf finding session. I went through all the brochures as we were trained to do. Um, and I think it was about 5 minutes into the meeting and she just kind of cut me short and she was a bit like, you know, explain lifetime allowance to me. What is my lifetime allowance calculation? And it was something we were trained on. I knew it. It was in my head, but I just didn't have the confidence at that time to say exactly what it was. Um, so most people probably know this, but for the NHS pension, it's the annual pension amount, times it by 20, and add on the lumpsum if there is one. It's a very, very simple calculation, and I knew it. I just didn't have the confidence to say it. Um, just in case there was that small chance that I was wrong because I'd only just learned it a few weeks ago. So, she kept pushing me for the answer. And I just kept saying, you know, this is something we can look into. I'll do all the factf finding. Give me the information. I'll go and look into it for you. as well as anything else that you want to discuss. Um, which is what we were trained to say if you don't know what what the answer is or if you're not confident to say what the answer is. So, I kind of did that. Um, and she just she wasn't happy with it. So, she looked at my senior manager at the time, um, a man called Steven Haldane, and she looked at him and she just said, "Can I be allocated to a more senior or experienced advisor?" And I just I couldn't really believe it. So it was just it was just a really really kind of yeah it was quite embarrassing I think that experience but it spurred me on to kind of develop into my technical knowledge um and it kind of gave me um the drive to become chartered I'd say I think just to show that I had that additional technical knowledge um and also I wanted to do the exam so AF1 J2 so inheritance tax and trust just so I skill my knowledge in those areas as well. And now I'm quite confident in having all of those conversations. So there's not anything that I'd say that I'd shy away from. So I'm quite confident to have those conversations with clients. Um and all very back client meeting at the time probably felt really horrible. Um it did me a favor um long term in terms of my development and growth as an adviser and it's just been kind of going upwards from there. I love it. I love turning a negative situation into a positive situation is is a difficult thing to do for some people because you can get kind of stuck in it and feel almost that pain and shame and you know you take it into every other meeting that you go into. I bet it still lingers in the back of your head sometimes though. Do I know what do I do I know what I'm talking about? You know, am I going to get caught out? And I bet there's people out there clients clients that kind of look something up and they kind of they test you on the spot just to see whether or not you do know what you're what you're talking about. But it's usually around something specific that they've researched. So it's like a an ego check, isn't it? You know, it's like I wonder if she knows what I I wonder if she knows what I know. On the top on that topic, she does she know what I know. Young female financial planner. Not many of you about talk talk to me about that. What's your experience of being a young female financial planner whilst we're on the the the client sort of uh interaction side? It's been an interesting one. So I started advising when I was 26, so six years ago. I'm 32 now. Um, and also it's commented quite a lot that I don't actually look my age. A lot of people assume I'm even younger. So when I first started advising at 26, they thought I was straight out of university and this was my first ever job. When actually I'd been working in financial services by for about four or five years at that point. Um, but the age thing is quite difficult. But I think the way to get around that is with the technical knowledge. if you can prove that you know what it is that you're speaking about and I learned that very quickly in the role but if you have that technical knowledge um then that will essentially do the talking for you. Um in terms of being a female um I think with uh female clients it kind of works in your favor. Otherwise I don't I don't really know. I try not to focus on it if I'm honest. I just see it more as one individual speaking to another individual. Yeah that's good. And that's the way, you know, that's the way it should it should be um should be experienced. If I speak to some of the older female financial planners that have been been around uh for a few more years than you, their experience over the years been it's been very different. But the more younger female financial planners that I speak to don't seem to have any there aren't any issues. There isn't any problems. No one's saying can I speak to a man or something like that. You know, it's not doesn't seem to be an issue. And I just I always ask the question at any any female at any stage. But I just want to know as well what can be done though do you think um to attract more women to the profession and why if a girl's listening to this right now and she's thinking about oh that could be an interesting career to get into why why should they why is it suited? Yeah there's a lot I think there's a lot of skills that women have that probably help you to be a good financial planner. I think it's the empathy um having a lot of empathy and understanding clients situations. Um, listening skills also really help. Um, I don't know about other women out there, I can't speak for them, but I'm a very highly organized person. Everything is in my diary. I organize all of my client meetings by location and kind of tick off five or six people if they're in the same area. So, I'm quite efficient in the way that I work. Um, but yeah, I think there's there's definitely scope for it and it is something that I'm looking to kind of aid and assist with myself. Um, so I'm a PFS education champion. I regularly go into schools and teach finance to school children. Um, and I'm also a school governor for the secondary school that I attended. So, King Edwards the 6th grammar school for girls. It's an all girls grammar school based in Birmingham. Um, and I regularly go into that school as well and speak I think I spoke for their first ever careers day. It was last month. um just about the financial uh planning, you know, career route and just yeah, there's definitely scope for it. Um it can be a little bit more intimidating. I wouldn't say more on the client side. The client side's okay, but the um kind of industry side. I go to a lot of events and there aren't that many female female financial planners there and that can be a little bit daunting and scary um at first. Um but I go to the gym a lot. I'm normally kind of one of the only women in the weight section, so I'm quite used to it. And I think I've probably not even by not even realizing I've probably built up some resilience to that anyway. Um, so I'm okay in those situations, but I think yeah, there is scope definitely scope for there to be more finan female financial planners in in the profession. 100%. So, do these kids listen to what you're saying around the career of financial planning? Do they get quite interested? Do they ask you questions? Do they follow up? Were they intrigued by it? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of questions around um career development. So, where can you progress to? So, a lot of children seem to be interested in the progression. Also, flexible working. Precoid I thought we had one of the most flexible working jobs out there. Postco there's a lot more flexibility. Um but I'm very lucky in the fact that Chase DeVe give me um well, they trust me to manage my own diary. Um so, there's that that also helps as well. There's a lot of benefits of of becoming a financial planner. I think not only kind of helping clients, but you can help yourself, your family members, your friends. Um, and it's just an amazing skill to have. And I'm pretty much fascinated by financial planning if I'm honest. I find it really, really exciting. I could talk about it for days. So, what Okay, so when you say fascinated by it, what part of it? What is it? What's the what is the part of financial planning that really makes you light up? I think it's the ability to help people. And um I listened to a presentation um I think it was a few few weeks ago. Um I don't know if you've heard of Sandro Forte. Um he's part of the Million-Dollar Round Table Club. He's a financial adviser in the UK and I've seen him present twice and at both of the presentations he's always said aside from reics, financial planners have the ability to change people's lives. And I actually agree with that. Um, and coming from my background with no bank of mom and dad and kind of the financial difficulties that we faced, I really want to help other families kind of avoid the kind of mistakes that were made in my family. Um, and it's just that ability to help people. If I can help you kind of protect your mortgage, house, invest for the future, retire. I did a meeting earlier this week with some clients that I've had um since 2020. We did some DB pension transfers for them back in 2020 and now's the time that they want to retire. We kind of modeled it on a cash flow uh model um using interflow planning. Um and the feedback was that it was just beautifully presented. Apparently that made my day. She said it was beautifully presented. Um and the wife was really really thankful. She was she she basically said um thank you for explaining it to me in a way that I can understand. And that's feedback that I get from a lot of my female clients. It's thank you for understanding or or you know providing understanding in a way that that I can understand. Um, so yeah, so it's the ability to help people and just share knowledge. And I think when you add value to people's lives, that's where you really make a difference. Yeah. Clarity, right? Clarity and a and a plan. Um, sounds to me you know you you know yourself as well. So you know your own money story. You know your upbringing. Doesn't sound to me like you are living with that imposter syndrome. I can imagine a lot of people think, oh, to be a financial planner, you have to have loads of money. It will come from money. I can imagine that's something that goes through a lot of people's minds, but before they even think they when they go into financial planning. What's interesting with financial planning, it's just such a mixed bag of people that work in it. Like, no two people are the same and everyone comes from different backgrounds and there's so many second careerists now that are coming into financial planning. Um, and I think it's um, what I'm learning from my money coaches is about knowing yourself and knowing your own story, your own behaviors around money and being able to create a safe space when you sit with somebody to give them the space to be open and honest without judgment. And I think that's powerful when it comes to money because money can people like it can stop them from moving forward. And it's kind of like, well, I love that question like, well, where where did where does your understanding of money begin? I love those types of questions and that money coaches ask. And I'm getting quite into the whole money coaches because I see that as such a powerful precursor to financial planning um because it creates a connection which I think um people want empathy and kindness and compassion around a subject that can cause a huge amount of anxiety regardless of how much money you have because it's more based on your behaviors that you learned throughout your life. Right? and and that's interesting to me and that's the part of financial planning I would be more geared towards is the psychology of the meeting and the piece and how can I take those kind of questions and turn them into examples in video for example that would draw somebody in and they go oh my god it's like they're talking to me and they identify with it and then they're like now I need to now I get why the planning is essential because I think people don't really quite there's a barrier it's because I'm speaking because I'm speaking about my own personal experience like there is When it comes to money, I'm not perfect with money. Like, you know, and and I've spoken to many a financial planner that isn't perfect with money, believe it or not, you know, and it's and it's that kind of I'm starting to understand myself. I'm starting to understand the feelings that come up around money like in in weird ways as well like not just like investing money or something like that but like in working with the finance department within my within the business you know within my relationship as well with my wife like there's so many weird money behaviors that I'm starting to like identify now and I'm starting to understand that they they drive a lot of my emotion. Yeah. And then and the emotion a lot of the time with me is fear. Yeah. And scarcity and and like and it's like whoa. So I'm doing some work on that and I think that's that's a powerful area. And I think if you're getting into financial planning, it's like that's the cool part as well, right? Not only are you kind of planning somebody's future and working it all out for them so they can sleep at night, which is powerful. But the precursor to that is how do you how do you convert somebody into understanding that what you offer is a value ad and not a con. Yeah. you know, and that's and that's important because a view of financial advisor is they're going to take my money and just rinse me, you know, and and and it's not that. It's a well-being proposition essentially in my eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It it's adding value. Um and also I think back to the imposttor syndrome um kind of subject. I had that massively when I first started for I think I'd say the the first three or four years. was probably only in the last year um because I've reached a level in my career where I do feel really confident now and I probably didn't before um and I think it also might be through a lot of the opportunities that Chase Deve have given me. So the opportunity to present at the advisor conference last year and it was probably more so the staff conference and speaking about my journey to becoming an adviser and the feedback I got that's kind of where my confidence has come from. But it's something I think the imposter syndrome is something that you do need to work on. The relationship with money I think I've always been quite good with money. I've did maths at a level. Um I did economics at university. It's always been something that I've been interested in. Um, but I do know that numbers don't come easy to a lot of people and that also has to be kind of beared in mind. Um, I did a PFS um, cash flow webinar. I think it was last week um, as part of the PFS power panel where we spoke about cash flow and how important it is and using cash flow with certain clients as well. you can see that they respond a lot better to graphs than they would just talking about the concept of numbers when you can physically see it on a graph that also brings kind of your advice into life as well. So there is a lot of behavior around it and I think it is really interesting. Um and with my role being a school governor for the the school that I kind of uh went to um I kind of see it in the way that I have the ability to now to influence and also um kind of improve maybe three generations of of school children. So, if I'm in my 30s now, for the next 30 years, if I can go into that school, provide financial education sessions and teach them about personal finance whilst they're in their teens, that's then equipping them to have better financial habits as they grow older. And it's just making that change. Some of them might be finance professionals, some of them might not, but it's just, yeah, it's working on that. There's there's a lot of benefits to financial planning in so many different ways. So it's it's you obviously work with the B the British Medical Association through Chase. Um you talked about the NHS pension. I expect you deal with surgeons. I expect you deal with doctors. These are highly educated people that have spent a long time within a specific discipline and they stay stayed within their lane. And they're doctors and they're surgeons and they're medical professionals. They're not financial professionals, right? And I think that's another way to kind of look at it, isn't it? like you tell me like you know are they sitting down with you with any sometimes they sit down with you and not have a complete and a clue about about about you know yeah so it's yeah that's comforting yeah nine time nine times out of 10 it's probably one of the first times they're looking at the NHS pension or they still don't understand the NHS pension because it is one of the most complex schemes out there with with all of the changes that the government's made over the years it is it's very difficult unless you've been trained on it it's given me probably my job and my specialism. Um but for doctors to understand that and do their kind of day job it it's yeah it's even for the for the best of them for it's quite difficult for them to understand. Um so yeah so you do get a mixed bag as well. So a lot of doctors that kind of are more financially um clued on and then other doctors that just aren't interested at all and then you've got the savers and the spenders. I think that you get that kind of naturally anywhere in life. But but yeah. So you're out there now fully fledged financial planner speaking to medical is it just medical professionals or do you is that like a niche that you deal with or do you deal with everybody? Yeah. So that's the niche. So that's my target kind of audience. But I deal with all kind of um yeah any individual that requires financial advice really. So if we look at the prospecting side of finding those clients, which is always a toughy for a lot of people that work within financial planning, they don't quite know where to set their sights. You've also you've been given a site, right? Do you feel like being given a profession or giving a uh you know the doctor's medical association, do you feel that's benefited you by laser focusing on one niche or not? Yeah. So this is something that I've been reflecting on a lot within the last six months in particular. it's do I stick with my current niche or do I branch out into a different one and how much has that actually impacted me on my journey to becoming a successful financial advisor. Um and I would say niching down definitely does help. Um because your clients kind of know you for helping with those issues. So whether it's doctors, dentists, teachers, lawyers, um if it's high net worth clients or if it's, you know, people that are training and looking to be qualified at a later date in whatever their professionalism is, um it definitely helps. So niching down definitely helps. Um I think it gives you that technical knowledge that you will also use on a daily basis. So it's subjects that you'll be speaking about constantly and learning more about as well. So if there are changes in the future, you're that expert in that field. And then it also helps with referrals. So I found I've helped doctors um in the last kind of five or six years during my time at Chase DeVilla and they've either referred me to their friends. Um recently we've had the Mloud judgment where a lot of doctors have received remedial service statements and if I've helped one client with theirs, you often kind of get past the details of another person that needs help with a similar issue. So, it it does really help to to kind of build build that client base that you're looking for. Um, I've even got some clients that I've done the complimentary meeting with. It hasn't transacted into business at that point in time, but they've come back two or three years later with a completely different issue. Um, but the fact that I'm still here working at Chase, I think works in my favor because they know that I'm a reliable person that they can always kind of um, yeah, rely on. So, they always come back. They know your expertise as well. They know this. They they know you know that what they do. And I think that's always that's always a beneficial one. Um Guy Skinner sort of hung his hat on lawyers and solicitors and young ones at the time that hadn't quite yet got to the point of earning decent levels of income and he obviously his strategy was to back in the day was to hit them with life protection policies. Yeah. And then as they progressed through their careers and started to earn more money and set their own practices up, they're now still with him now. And his average age of a client, I think he said in the chat, was about 30 years old. 32 years old or something like that. Yeah. 30s or 40s. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Quite young. Yeah. Quite young. What about you? Are you dealing with them towards the end of their careers or are they talking to you at the beginning and hoping to go with you on the journey? What's What does that look like? Yeah, I've got a really mixed um client kind of um yeah, kind of in terms of my age density, it's very very mixed. So, we've got clients that are starting their journey or we're setting up kind of um juniors or pensions for children all the way through to clients that have retired. I think my youngest client is probably um I think 17 18 and then my oldest client, she's 97, so it it's it's a huge huge age range. Are you finding parents are wanting to bring their children into I don't know the advice process um earlier like are you getting sort of moms and dads who are maybe like 50 55 that are then referring their children into you? Are you seeing that happen more? Yeah, a little bit. So I um kind of push for that myself anyway. um not just as a part of intergenerational wealth planning but just because it's something that I think I think I enjoy teaching about finances. So if there are clients that do have children I push for that and if the clients are interested in it then it is something that I do offer. So I've met with quite a few of my clients children's already whether it's bringing them into the meeting or just having one-off conversations with them or doing them a financial kind of complimentary review meeting. I have found that a lot and a lot more recently as well in the last couple of years. Um, but I'm also not sure if that's because we've had the relationship for a few years. So, it kind of naturally develops over time anyway. Um, but yeah, that's something that I've also noticed. Brilliant. On a final note, is there anything that you would share today with our listeners that you feel that has really helped you in your career? It could be some training, it could be a book, it could be a podcast or a docu, you know, it could be anything. Is there anything at all that's really or a point in your career that really was a turning point and you were like, "Ah, that was it. That was the thing that's got me got me through or took me up to the next stage." Just to share that. So, someone who might be tinkering by the side of it or looking for something to give them that inspiration, what would it be? Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I think there's a couple of things. I think the first thing is res resilience is really important. So don't let fear or failure or rejection ever hold you back on your journey. Um just learn from that experience. And again it's that constructive criticism. What can you do differently the next time? Um and it will it will just help to build resilience and it might not be the right time at that point in in in your life. It might be a little bit later in life that it is actually the right time. So yes, so don't let fear, failure or rejection hold you back. Um, also activity. Activity generally tends to lead to more business. So in the early days, make sure your diary is really really busy. Um, speak to anyone and anyone that you can. Um, so that will definitely help as well. For me, it was probably more the technical knowledge. Uh, so becoming chartered. So don't just stop at the diploma. um if you're worried about age um or even gender or ethnicity or anything that it is, if you've got that technical ability that allows you to speak to clients and provide and add value, then that's essentially what matters. Um but yeah, I think I think that's pretty much it. And I think um James Clear and Atomic Habits said something that's always stuck with me. And I think it was if you can be 1% better every single day by the end of the year you'll be 37 times better off. Um so yeah so it's just that you know um yeah just adding adding adding to be better. Love it. The compound. Love James Clear. Fantastic book. It's the only email I read that gets sent to me. I love his email is is it such a very I look forward to that one. So listen Jay, thank you so much for sharing your career journey on the Financial Plan of Life podcast. It was really, really interesting actually and I think you did a fantastic job. So I think you should get yourself out there on more podcasts and start sharing your story and sharing your journey. Um, so it's been actually pleasure talking to you and a pleasure getting to know you. And I'm really looking forward to us because we're going to do a golf day soon, right? Financial Planet Life golf day. We're all going to go up to Nottingham, eight financial planners, two sets of nine-hole golf games where we talk about financial planning around each hole, film it. So, if someone's a golf buff and want to learn a bit about financial planning, they're in for a treat and a bit of competitive along competitiveness along the way. Um, and apparently I might be a wild card. So, watch out because I might have to I might have to hit one of your balls and I'm not brilliant. I'm pretty good at I'm pretty good at I'm pretty good at driving, but the restricted driving, but it's the other bits that Yeah. Yeah. I might need some refresher lessons in the meantime. There we go. Well, maybe I'll be I'll be on your team and we can help each other. Fantastic. All right, Jay. Well, listen, thank you so much for sharing your journey on the financial planner life and um obviously you're going to go from strength to strength. So, thank you so much for sharing. Cheers. Thanks, Sam. Thanks for having me. Welcome.