Sofia Franklyn on the Fight for Call Her Daddy, Starting Over & Building Again

Call her daddy once I left was no longer call her daddy. >> Sophia Franklin helped turn Call Her Daddy into a cultural phenomenon. >> I will go on the record and say she was going to cut me out, me over at some point. Nardini walks in and says, my goal for you girls, 100,000 listeners. A month later we're at 2 million. So we needed to renegotiate. I actually think I was the better negotiator. I wanted VIP as I understood IP, which is complete ownership of the brand. >> Then the deal fell apart, the friendship ended, and the show went on without her. >> I'm just going to be honest with you, I would have been Alex and I would have won and I would never have walked away. >> Women were safety my entire life. So could you say I had a blind spot in my female friendships and relationships? >> Now Sophia is telling her side of the story and what she's learned about knowing her worth and defining success on her own terms. >> I don't think that my attorney understood podcasting. >> I don't think your attorney understood life. When you look back, what would you have done differently? After everything that happened, have you learned to trust yourself again? Knowing what you know now, is there any part of you that just wishes you'd have taken the deal that was handed to you? Okay guys, I need to just level with you and tell you a little something. Over 77% of people who watch this show aren't subscribed and I need you to subscribe to YouTube. It's very quick, it's very easy, it's very worth it. Do me a favor and subscribe today. >> Sophia Franklin, welcome to Aspire. >> Thank you >> having me. >> I am so happy to have you here. We've got such a great conversation to be having today. I feel like anybody that doesn't know you probably has been living under a rock, but obviously you helped create Call Her Daddy in 2018. It grew unbelievably quickly, and a couple of years after it all fell apart over a negotiation, and the show ended with you no longer being a part of the show. Now you've had to build something all of your own, with this incredible book, Daddy Issues, sitting right here, which I cannot wait to dig into. I was really excited to read it, and actually I will say quite pleasantly surprised. I want to kind of go back a little bit and start at the beginning because you were working in finance. You were on a salary of about $52,000 a year from what I remember, a year before anything happened. So will you take me back to what your life was like before the podcast started? >> My life was uh chaotic, but I was always very driven, and I decided to get a job in finance, not because I'm good at necessarily math, numbers. I majored in economics kind of, >> You majored in economics kind of. >> kind of didn't get my college degree cuz I was two classes short. And I wanted to work at Morgan Stanley because my strong suit was English literature writing. I chose a job in finance because I thought that's how I could make money and that's how I could get out of Utah. >> Started your big girl job. >> Mhm. >> Tell me about what you remember in those kind of like first few months before the podcast really took off. What was actually happening and how did you end up there? >> So I would sit in my cubicle looking over these very important documents, okay? Like people's wills, people's you know, their trust funds, how they're going to allocate their money. But my job was to look for a signature on the left, an emblem on the right. Just very mundane. And so I would listen to podcasts all day long. And I would sit there and I would think to myself, I am going to live in New York and I'm going to have a podcast. And I would say it over and over and over again in my head to manifest it, which is I learned how to manifest things through my dad Tom in the book. One of the many lessons he got from rehab was how to manifest your life. So that was that was a good one that I did. >> you were like, I'm going to manifest a podcast. >> Yeah. >> So tell me what that looks like. Like how did you get in to actually filming your first show? >> So I meet Alex and right away we have chemistry. And we run around New York trying to get dinner for free, drinks for free, which means we need to look hot, we need to be entertaining, and we do that very successfully. And then from there we both decided, okay, there's something here. Should we start a YouTube channel? The YouTube channel never came to be, but we are offered to start a podcast. >> So what do you remember about the first few months when the podcast actually took off? >> Absolute It was like pandemonium, craziness. I don't It went from this level to I'm getting recognized everywhere I go. People are getting a tattoo of me. There's thousands of girls dressing up like me for Halloween in the span of like a few months. So I would say crazy. >> Just completely crazy. >> >> And also crazy because you didn't set out for it to be that. Like you said, you didn't actually realize how lucrative it was going to become. What made you actually realize that the show had become phenomenally successful? >> The second that Barstool reached out is when I knew we had something. And then right away I understood that there was money in it >> Yeah. >> at that point. >> I love that. What do you think initially made the show work? >> Our chemistry. In every meeting we would walk into with agents from UTA, CAA, they would kick it off with you cannot create that kind of chemistry. You either have it or you don't. >> Yeah, it's not something you can manufacture. And you two were electric. I mean, for for for those that weren't around at the time, and I have to tell you, I I probably had just moved here. I'd been here for a couple of years, but people really were going crazy. I wasn't listening to the show, but people were like fanatical mad fans that just were like losing their minds, were listening, re-listening to every episode. Give me some of the stats because they were so impressive and as we were I was going through the book, I was like, damn, that was popular really quickly. >> I mean, dare I say the fandom was on a smaller scale like Swifties with Taylor Swift. Like they were that dedicated. They were using they were buying all the merch. I mean, what it looked like was every, I swear to God, college sorority had call her daddy themed parties. They had all of our merchandise. We are walking down the street and, you know, we're seeing people wearing our stuff. It became like two million listeners in two months an episode. That's huge. >> Huge. Huge by today's standards, but it's just absolutely huge. >> Massive, like >> Absolutely massive. Um all right, so let's actually get into it because one of the main reasons that I wanted to talk to you today is because I think there's an unbelievable amount to learn from actually what you went through. Not that people are going to have a show that gets 2 million listeners in two months, but I think we've all been in times where we've had to negotiate on our own behalf and we've come out on a side that we didn't expect or in a place that actually felt less favorable to us. And I there's nothing about me that wants to try and litigate the situation, but having read your book, I do think there's so much to learn and to take from that situation. And I also wanted to offer my own perspective because I actually went into business with a very, very dear friend of mine, my best friend in the world, Chanel. And it was a weird time because when we did it, we'd been friends for years, like maybe for 10 years, so I really knew her. And maybe that was good, maybe that was bad, but I knew everything that was good about her. I knew every weakness that she had. And when we decided to go into business together, we immediately said, this can never affect our friendship. By the same token, like you have something, I have something, and we have to protect those things. And so we did a contract. We went in on this contract at like 26 years of age and really thrashed out like what happens if the hits the fan? What happens if this doesn't work? >> Well, that's why you're where you are. You're 26 and you're like, okay, partnership agreement, let's go. >> I was like, girl, listen, you're not taking anything, anything that I've created. And I think she was thinking the same thing. She was like, wait a minute, I have a client base, I have something to protect. But it wasn't easy. It's not like now, right, where it's like I have staff and I have lawyers. It's like I had nothing. We kind of papered an agreement and then we got a mate that we knew to sew the whole thing and sew the whole thing up. But that isn't what you did. And so I wanted to talk about let's just like before we get into that, talk about how were decisions actually being made? Because very quickly you became very popular, Barstool get involved, and there were things to negotiate. So what did that look like in the early days before you got to this kind of breaking point of the negotiations? >> So when we signed the contract with Barstool, similar to you, we had a friend uh who was a lawyer look it over. And he did have some hesitation around the IP. And we kind of just decided, and everything was collaborative um for the most part. I kind of wanted to shop it around. Alex not as much. But we I was in a position Alex doesn't have a job. I hate my job. And so it was kind of this why wouldn't we sign this even if it meant giving them the IP? >> And what did it mean to you at the time? Like what was the value of that contract, do you remember? >> 75,000 for the first year. With with yeah, with some bonuses. >> Did it feel like a good deal at the time? Were you like whoop whoop? That's better than the 52k I'm making at >> >> I'm done. >> Show me where to sign. >> Show me where to sign, literally. >> She's like literally show me where to sign. And what happened on the more creative side of things? Cuz you mentioned like in your heart you're more of a writer, you're more of like the person that could, you know, strategize and think about ideas. How was your relationship working? Because I know the way that I put my agreement together with my friend was very much based on what we brought to the partnership, right? So she bought her clients, her artist base, and I bought the buyers and the brands. And so it was kind of evenly weighted. We were like this is something where it's 50/50 and then I sat back and I was like well actually I'm providing the infrastructure. So that changed the weight of the contract, meaning that I ended up taking slightly more because I was doing more. I was providing services. Later, when she had kids and she decided actually I only want to work three days a week as it turned out, I was like, that's fine because, you know, the weight of the way we'd figured out our negotiation, that worked for that situation. What did you decide early on that kind of governed the way that you worked and who who was doing what? >> We didn't. We we straight up didn't. Everything was together, you know? We didn't talk about who is better at what, who's bringing what, how much is that worth. Like that conversation did not take place at that stage. >> I mean, even as I speak to you now, is there anything that hearing about how I structured that partnership makes you think differently or or does something stand out to you? >> I wanted to ask you what did the negotiation look like when you came in and said, I should actually be having more than 50%? >> You know, that's a really good question. I would I I'd have to like call Chanel up. I mean, from my side it looks fine. I was like, does this feel good to you because I'm bringing all the value? But to me, there was a very clear, you know, it's like I owned the office, I owned all the staff, I had the infrastructure. And I I mean, listen, I'm talking like I had an office of 16 people at that time. I'm trying to literally like I'm looking around. I had a small company, but it's like that small company was delivering a lot of business and it could help amplify what she was doing. And so it meant that she could just come in, service all of her clients, and I could do the billing, I could go out and find the brands, I could help service the business. So there was a real value. >> And it was clear. >> And it was it was clear, but also it was agreed. And I think that when we talk about negotiation, we always imagine that someone has to lose. I think about negotiation very differently. I think a good negotiation is when both partners come to a mutually advantageous place, right? You're both a little bit pissed off by the way. That's usually what happened, right? But there's there's that give give and you meet somewhere in the middle. Now that you've had a lot of time to think about it is I'm just trying to think as you go back to that time, do you do you think actually had we had that conversation it all would have been fine or there just was no place for it like >> There was no place for it because we had done three episodes. Podcasting is still very new and neither of us knew how to put the value on the individual things we were doing, but more so we didn't feel like we were doing things individually. >> And it makes sense when you think about it like that, but it's hard to do and I do think a lot of women to your earlier point have a lot of trouble valuing their contribution because it's like something that comes so easy to you. You sit down, you're funny as you're cutest and like you're like how do I put a price on that? Like we're just two friends shooting the But you very quickly understood that you were worth a lot more than that 75k that you were being promised in that initial contract and that's where you're saying you were the better negotiator. >> Yes. And I was aggressive, but I don't think that it was too aggressive and I know that that's kind of the narrative that is out there. I disagree with that narrative and we can talk about why. >> So my debut book Start with Yourself is available now. 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So knowing what you know now and like thinking and being able to take a step back, what do you think two friends should align on before they get into business with one another? >> They need to have a partnership agreement in place and they need to be transparent about who is doing what and what the value is. But that would obviously automatically come up when you're signing a partnership agreement, right? >> Absolutely. Absolutely it would. >> It really boils down to that. I don't think there's any like red flags or anything that I could have done differently. >> Well, I think what happens in my experience is that even having the conversations and going through the points raises things that you might otherwise not be talking about. >> That yeah. And you're good to call me out on that because that we didn't we very much didn't like to do that. We're like we're best friends. We are equal. We are, you know? And I think maybe being super specific could have been helpful. >> Yeah. I think it is. I think it's having that uncomfortable conversation because in a partnership it's very rarely evenly weighted. And so for the two of you, and I know that it gets ever more complicated as you get into merch, as you get into brand deals, like all the things that were coming down the path for you, you could never have anticipated that, but you could have had some of those conversations that would have taken the weight out of some of the complexities that came a lot later. And I think but again, just by virtue of trying to flash through it and thinking into the future, you would have realized where there was perhaps a misalignment, where one wanted to go one way, one wanted to go the other. And listen, who knows, right? Would it have all worked out fine? You don't know, but it's like >> not. No, I I will go on the record and say that she was going to cut me out, me over at some point, period, point blank. >> What did the experience teach you that you would look differently in like a business partner and a friend if you were doing this all over? >> I would not choose a partner who was not interested in partnership. But how can you know? It's similar to a divorce, right? I give this author a shout-out every I need to like promote my book and stop promoting her book. Strangers. >> Oh, I read Strangers. >> It's so good. >> It's excellent. Although I kind of wanted to throw it at the wall like every chapter. >> Oh, a little bit. But people behave differently when the stakes are high. How could she have really You think she could have foreseen that he was a monster? >> >> Forget if he was a monster. She had a bunch of to protect. I mean, do you know what the the irony of all of this is that I'm about to sit on a panel with wonderful Belle Burdens, so I'm actually going to get to say all of this directly to her. I feel I feel like I'm speaking behind a friend's back. I don't know this lady. I just am a fan of the book, and every woman should read the book. But it's like my point of view is that when you have something to protect, right? She came from the wealthy background. You owe it to yourself and your family and the people that made that money to protect that money. What are you talking about? I love this man, the birds are nesting and flocking. I'm like, protect your money. >> You are a billion percent right. She needed to protect herself, but I don't think we can blame her for not foreseeing her husband was going to like >> No. >> have a, you know, narcissistic personality. >> not. I don't know. Maybe I'm just like I'm just too suspect. Like I'm I'm always looking for like who's about to me over and so I'm going to like I'm going to get in there and protect myself before. I think that it's actually a really good lesson because fame, money, success, it changes people. It's nothing strange about that. Like it changes people for the better very often. It changes you for the worse. And I think when money comes into a situation, all it does is amplify who you really are. If you're the best, most kindest, most generous person in the world, you're going to be better, kinder, more generous. You're an you're going to become more of an >> Mic drop. That I like have never thought about it that way and it's incredibly true. >> I think it's true. Here's the thing that I really want to ask you because at the end of this, we are talking about two lovely girls that started something mesmerizing. And I wonder if you could ever see yourself being friends with Alex again. >> If she had a if she was able to come to me and take ownership, accountability, and there was some personality change. Yes. If we could have an honest conversation about what happened, yes. Do I think she's capable of that? Not really, but I could be wrong. >> Fair. Thanks for answering. I wondered. >> I I have in the book, I take full accountability. You know, I talk about myself and all my weaknesses and substance abuse and blah blah blah. If she could meet me there, yes. Cuz I don't I don't walk around with anger. That doesn't serve me. But >> I think it's really good that you've got to that place because you're young and your whole life is in front of you and you did have tremendous chemistry with this person that you can't manufacture. So there was obviously something good there. And you never know. You never know what the future holds. All right, we're going to get into the negotiation. So I'm going to walk through it as I understand it and then you can just make me write the whole way through because there's a lot of moving pieces and I need to know where I've got it right and where I didn't. Okay. Show takes off, insane, incredible, people are going nuts. You're making about $100,000 a year, but the business is actually generating millions, meaning your ad revenue on that podcast was making way more money than the reality that you or Alex were actually seeing at the time. You start getting opportunities to do a lot of other things. So just like you say, you're the hot chicks on the block. You've got live shows, books, alcohol deals, other brand deals and businesses and all sorts of stuff coming your way. But because you don't own the IP, you can't go out and pursue them on your own. You have to do everything via Barstool. Is that correct? >> Yes, and we're also employees of Barstool. >> So does that mean there was another set of obligations that you had to do on their behalf >> Yes. >> well as your own shows? >> we couldn't Yeah, we couldn't just go do those things without the Barstool. >> So is that where you decided we need to go into another negotiation, stomping's got to change? >> Uh that and yes. Yeah. >> Got it. All right, so then you go back to Barstool and you say we want substantially more money. You asked for a million bucks each. >> Yes. >> And you also want some participation in the revenue that you're generating. >> Yes. >> want more control over the business and basically you're just looking for more ownership. You're like we're making a ton of money, we want to see more of our money. >> Yes. >> Nothing strange, weird, basically somebody negotiating on their own behalf. >> And we had so surpassed the the original agreement. You know? And when we signed it they were expecting like I'll never forget when and I write about this in the book and there's more fun details in there, but Nardini walks in and says my goal for you girls, 100,000 listeners. A month later we're 2 million, so we needed to renegotiate. >> Did you have a sense of how much money you were actually making for the company? >> Uh once we blew up, yes. >> How did you how did you know? >> Well, Dave Portnoy famously went on his live radio show and said those girls are paying for everyone's salaries here at Barstool. >> Oh, you must have been so happy to hear that. That's so nice. >> And that's a lot of that's like hundreds of employees. >> What did you what did you do? Honestly, I would have thrown myself off the side of the building. I would have been so nuts had I heard that. >> We asked to renegotiate. >> How elegant of you. You were like hey, may we have some of our money? That's cute. >> Then he also said, which is hilarious because he's not saying this to us, we're just getting he says it on live radio. He says one episode is bringing in $100,000 ad revenue. >> Got it. So essentially you're putting out a couple of episodes a week. You and Alex have paid for yourself in 1 week of episodes, 2 episodes. You're like ching ching, we're done. Then we're going to pay the rest of the company, then we're going to pay for whatever else we need to, but we're not still not seeing any of that money. So understandably you're pissed, you go back in for a renegotiation. What was the thing that you cared about most at that point? Do you remember? >> To be not just paid fairly, but to be able to create this show that was our baby and be treated fairly in money ways, creative ways, other opportunities, the list goes on and on. So, it was really everything. >> Yeah, because at that point you're like we're on the like crest of a wave. Like we have so many opportunities. This has gone beyond being a podcast. You're selling like stuff. You have so many opportunities and the feeling is palpable of what you're not participating in. So, you go back to or rather Barstool comes back with a different offer, half a million each. It's kind of a nice big fat jump. We love it. But you're still like that's just not enough. >> Yes. >> They also offer you a pathway, and this is where it gets really interesting, and I want to make sure I stay on track because I went through this in the book. They also offer you a path to owning the IP at that point, which is the big golden thing that you're trying to get to. >> So, normally if I was on any other podcast, I would say this is why I needed to write a book because there you can't really understand the nuances and the complexity of this deal in even a long form interview we can get close, especially with you because you're that >> you try me, babe. I want to know. I want to get down and dirty. >> But they don't offer the IP right away. Then after we stop putting out episodes, an aggressive move on our part, then they come to the table to negotiate. And then he offers the IP back at the end of one year. >> So this is really hostile and I do think it's important for people to understand because in podcast land, you stop putting out your shows, audience behavior shifts. And even when you're the hottest thing on the planet, it's like you're losing listeners to other places. So for you guys to turn around and say, do you know what, we're going on a hiatus, that really was a bold move. You were out to make a point, to get what you deserved, and you really were using all the tools in your arsenal to try to negotiate to your best ability. >> Because they hadn't even negotiated. They said, we are not interested. We are not renegotiating. Your contract is up in two years from now and go take a hike. And so we're doing this for a month or more. He says, yeah, I'll talk to your attorney. Tell him to bring a helmet. Literally says that in an email. They're not even talking to us. So yes, we countered with that bold move. >> So tell me what didn't work about the deal that you were offered because you did get dramatically increased money. You then brought the ownership back on the table. What was it that wasn't good enough for you? >> I did come to a point where it meant more to me to stay with Alex and stay at Barstool. That's what people don't get. But I told Alex, I remember very specifically, and I have the text, I am willing to stay. We are not going to roll over on these points. And I would love to ask you this question. >> Please. >> What does IP mean to you? >> It's everything. >> Everything. >> It's everything. >> So are we getting our full IP back if the contract reads Barstool regardless of giving you the IP will own all the alcohol rights in perpetuity. We will collect a percentage of merchandise in perpetuity and there were like some other we have to attend to Barstool events or some there there were these contingencies. >> the the clear answer to this is no. >> Thank you. >> That's just another it's just another part of the negotiation. So what you were what was happening there is that you your IP was being leveraged against you. It's like you can have this but we're going to need this piece of it and who knows at the time like what the biggest categories would be and worth for you but it seems to me like to you know like >> You also to to woo to woo woo girls. >> It feels like alcohol would be a pretty big part of that and the word perpetuity whenever anyone sees that in any contract ever you really need to stop stop. You just need to stop. >> You need to stop and >> to stop and go perpetuity. There's a lot of syllables in that for a reason because you need to stop and you need to take it in because you don't ever want to be given anything in perpetuity. The very fact that you signed a two-year contract in the first place when you're just starting out is kind of enough right? It's like even that but again when you're increasing listeners like that a 24-month contract when things are happening week to week month to month episode to episode for you was a very long time. So perpetuity is just a no. So what did you still want out of the deal? Like what would have been okay for you that you would have said I'm ready to sign? >> I wanted the IP as I understood IP which is complete ownership of the brand. That includes alcohol. That includes merchandise. There's no strings attached. We're not paying money out to Barstool in perpetuity. >> Fair. >> That that was kind of my thing. I also understood that Barstool is in the midst of a negotiation. 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Put yourself back in that situation and and and take me inside it. Like were you sitting here thinking, oh my goodness, I'm going to leave with nothing here? >> No, because my worst-case scenario was the two of us leave and start something on our own. >> What was making you feel so confident though, Sophia? Like what was making you feel confident A that you could keep pushing, B that you had leverage, but also C that you and Alex were so aligned? >> Well, everything that I pushed for eventually was like, okay, fine. So that was happening. >> So you were seeing success in your negotiations? >> yeah, yeah. And then my friendship with Alex, I never in a million years thought that something like that could happen. >> So >> You're like, I would have thought about it. >> It it's easy in hindsight to sit here and be like, I'd have done this, I did done that. My predisposition in life is that I'm going to get over. Now, that's my own hang-ups and that's my own childhood. I would have been less trustworthy that this incredible valuable thing that I had built, that other people weren't going to fight as hard as I was fighting. And it seems to me that you didn't understand the cracks that were appearing in the relationship between the two of you, right? >> I think where it's different is you and your friend and business partner, was she the face of the business or no? >> I mean, it's such a different business, right? Cuz we weren't like famous chicks like you. We were like corporate girlies. And so in a way, she was more of the face cuz she was sort of like the front agency person and I was like the back end like brain behind girl. You know what I mean? I loved it. I never thought of myself like that. But you know what I mean? Like I was the the more behind the scenes let's like make this thing and this company profitable and make it work. And she was kind of like out on the scene making the deals happen. But if some if I were in your position, it's like getting the IP, getting to a point where I could actually do a deal. And this is where I think like and I want to make sure that we get this right because the story on the outside is very much like you could have had everything you wanted had you just been patient, seen the contract through. It was coming to you a year down the line. But that's >> Wait, but I agree. >> Was was that what was happening? >> We were still negotiating and something shifted and this is the part where I was voicing and speaking up for myself and was now incredibly active in the negotiation. And she was starting to see that she was losing 100% control. I'm voicing my opinion. I am 50% of this show in terms of it's two co-hosts that people look at every day. Whether I, you know, the value of each of us is 50/50, that's debatable. But I wasn't totally naive and it did cross my mind that she would maybe me over. But then similar to what you're saying, you because of your upbringing, you have always been of the mind someone is going to try to me somewhere. I have the same mind but specific to men. You know, women were safety my entire life and that's very clear in the book, my upbringing. So could you say I had a blind spot in you know, my female friendships and relationships? I maybe, but when we start talking about marriage, I I she was going to do it. She was going to do it at some point. Whether it was then or a little bit later, it was going to go down. And she was going to cut me out. You can disagree, but >> No, I'm not actually going to disagree. I can see how given your background and given that women have been safety for you in your life that you didn't see that coming. >> Mhm. >> I can understand that. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, and I think a lot of people would look at their friend and be like well, I wouldn't do that so I don't expect that it would happen to me. I mean, like I said, business changes things. It really does. >> It does. Especially being two girls and you know, we're the faces of this thing. There's a blonde and a brunette. It's like we are constantly being compared 24/7. So the environment is already a bit shaky. >> Yeah. >> A bit. It's hard to not compare. >> Sophia, when you look back, what would you have done differently? >> Signed a partnership agreement. That's it. Literally. That's the only thing that I would have done differently. I don't blame myself for getting into business with someone who wasn't who they who you thought they were. >> Is there any part of you that just wishes you'd have taken the deal that was handed to you? >> I mean, I I actually was actively trying to. That's that what gets missed. I did not walk away. >> Say more. >> I said let's not roll over on these points. Let's push hard. Every time we pushed, Dave eventually done it. We were actively negotiating when I got the call from Dave. And Alex and I had stopped talking because I found out all of these things that she was doing behind my back. But I didn't leave the show. I didn't leave Barstool. I was like ready to stay at Barstool, genuinely. >> I mean, this this is >> what people are like, wait, what? >> Yeah, well that that that's what I'm saying in my head, like wait, wait, what? Like literally what? >> We were actively negotiating. >> So how? >> Mhm. >> How did you get pushed? That's what I want to understand. Like by the end, this is not really happening in a vacuum anymore. The personal relationship between you and Alex is really deteriorating. Trust has completely broken down. You wrote in your book that you were hurt, that you were disappointed, you were prideful, you were stubborn even during that period. I want to understand before we get into the nuts and bolts of it, like how much were you letting your emotions and your personal feelings actually affect your business decisions? >> Not in the negotiations with Barstool, not I didn't let them affect those decisions. Those were like strictly understanding what how far we could push it. And Alex had a pattern also of rushing into deals and signing, right? We meet with CAA. They they need to be our agents and I'm like, wait, why? >> Because your instinct was what? >> Let's my instinct was let's I want to know the reason why. Like let's actually weigh the pros and cons. We don't need to jump at the bit at the first agency that wants us. >> WME. Let's go see UTA. Let's go see >> the block. >> Exactly. >> They flew us to Los Angeles. Let's walk down the street and go to the next one. But my emotions were there when I found out about the betrayal. This book is about the business, but the book is ultimately about betrayal and a friendship breakup. I don't know if you've ever had a friendship breakup. It sounds like you and have you gone into business with any friends and it didn't work out? >> No, I haven't. And I really hope it never does. I've only ever broken up with one friend um like in a in a serious breakup way because I did the thing that you know you should never do. I told her that her boyfriend was cheating on her and she she was I didn't know. I was young. I was stupid. You know, I was like he's cheating and she was like, no, he's not. I was like, no, no, he definitely is. So that's my only breakup. That's a whole different story. But I get it, right? Like when you when you love somebody and you trust them and what you're again, I think that we have to be remember what you were going through, because this was like a hyper like individualized situation where you have like this crazy amount of pressure. And also, let's just be honest, like you're becoming famous. Like that does weird things to people too. Like fame is the kind of unknown layer of all of this, because I understand the business part of it, the money part of it, but I think when you add on that there was this like, you know, craziness that was going on around you and this fame that was starting to happen, like that does add a layer of complexity that I think is hard for people to understand. Um and and maybe hard even for you at the time to understand because it was happening to you, but it was happening to her and it was happening to the two of you together. And I think that there naturally was an element of competition in there that perhaps you've peeled back the layers a little bit on now that you've had some time to process that was like making things a little more lopsided. >> I think during the negotiations we did have to start in private, not to each other, think to ourselves, who is adding value and how much? >> Take me through that conversation in your head. Like how did that go for you? >> If you ask anybody, they're going to tell you. Sophia was the talent. Alex was the marketing, social media, able to package something person. Those are two different skills. >> When you say talent though, because again, and I just think having seen Alex, the success that she's had, I look at her now as that I think she's talented. She's a great interviewer. She clearly has been good at packaging herself and becoming a great podcaster. >> Uh-huh. >> Like break that down for me a little bit because I think a lot of people would be like, what are you talking about? That girl's talented. >> Call Her Daddy once I left was no longer Call Her Daddy. Anyone who listened to it, any OG listeners, point blank, it became an celebrity interview type show. Good interviewer, you know, I was going to say debatable, but >> Well, tell us how you really feel. >> there but there is some there is talent in that. It was my stories, okay? Unwell, I popularized the word Unwell through a story I told about This is in the book. Being, you know, on Molly at Coachella and sending an email to Morgan Stanley, I'm not going to make it in today. I'm unwell. I have the email. I was telling the stories. I came into the podcast already having lived a very full life. As you know, in the book. >> I'm like, don't judge her. We've all done it, guys. Come on. Come on. >> So I had the stories, I had the humor, and I also had an ear for podcasting because it's what I would consume for 8 hours a day. >> So you bought the distinction. What you're saying is that like it's like that unique distinction that you had in the marketplace, that sort of like girl banter, the honesty, the kind of explicit sexuality, the talking in the way that you guys kind of popularized. Like exactly. It's like that thread of what that show was all about and became famous for and became the blueprint for >> Yes. >> That came from you. >> Yeah. Am I saying she's not talented? She is incredibly talented. She knows she knows how to, you know, have a presence in front of a camera, which is a huge talent. She is great at PR marketing things. She's great at landing a headline. She's also a pretty good negotiator, no? I don't know how good she is at business. I negotiated that deal. She was ready to sign it months before for on way lesser terms. >> But but you got iced out of the agreement, and I think that is the important takeaway here, right? >> Yes. Dave said to me, I would rather it be the two of you, but she's the one that came to me and is being aggressive, and she wants to sign the deal now. And I said, okay. Can we do it together and it, I'll sign the deal? And he said, you have to work that out between the two of you. >> Then what? >> I text her and call her, and she leaves me on read repeatedly. And I can't get a hold of her. I tried to get a hold of her through Erica Nardini. I tried to ask her agents. She won't speak to me. >> Is that where your relationship was at that point, that you were having to go through agents or >> No. We weren't talking, but we were actively negotiating. So I reach out to her and I sat I say and on my phone, this is such an incredible thing we built. Let's not do this. She didn't respond. I sent her this safe word that we came up with, should negotiations go bad. She didn't respond. >> You had a safe word, should negotiations go bad? >> Mhm. It was the name of a bar that we like I can't remember. We like celebrated something at this dive bar called Crompton somewhere. >> What were you envisaging when you had a safe word in case the negotiations go bad? This is the most girlish I've ever heard in my life. Like, what is it? LIKE, PINEAPPLE? LIKE, SHIT'S HIT THE FAN. We're about to lose our whole thing. Like, what is happening here? >> And we are literally young girls that are that are literally I'm going to write a very long newsletter this week, about with all my lawyers, my countless lawyer details and the need for never having a safe word. There are other reasons to have safe words. >> Right, right, right. >> >> Many. Many different shows. That's your show. >> That's a different show. But I couldn't get a hold of her. And uh next thing I know, she's put out a YouTube video. Mind you, I'm still thinking we can save this. I'm like, she's just mad. She's going to get back to me. >> And in your heart of hearts, you really believe that? >> Yes. And Dave said it himself. He said, we have brought in a brunette and a blonde to try to reenact this. No one works. I went around the office, asked people who's the favorite. It's split down the middle. You need to work it out between the two of you. I can't force it. So I reach out. Alex is mad. She's going to get back to me eventually. And then she drops this YouTube video. That was game over. >> Around this time of year, I start thinking less about checking gifts off the list and more about the people I want to choose well for. And when you're shopping for the woman in your life, I think the best gifts are the ones that feel considered. Not necessarily the biggest gift or the most obvious gift, but the thing that makes her feel a little like you've thought about what she would use, what she would wear, or enjoy. That's why I like starting with the person, not the category. For the woman who loves beauty, Macy's has gifts that feel fun but still useful, like a lip gloss set, a beautiful holiday beauty box, or something she can throw in her bag and use all season. For the person who loves fashion, I would look at accessories first. A coach kiss lock shoulder handbag is the kind of piece that can make a simple outfit feel more special. Sunglasses, a great sweater, or a faux fur jacket can do exactly the same thing. And jewelry is always a strong place to go when you want the gift to feel more personal. A birthstone necklace, a classic watch, a pearl pendant, or a tennis bracelet all feel thoughtful because they're pieces she can keep coming back to. Now, the nice thing about Macy's gift guide is that it helps you narrow it down. You can shop by the kind of woman that you're buying for instead of scrolling endlessly and hoping that something feels right. That is what makes the gift feel handpicked. It matches who she is, how she dresses, and what she will actually reach for. Check out the Macy's online gift guide for even more ideas. I've traveled so much this year and I've had some really memorable experiences along the way. I made it to Capri for my annual girls trip, which is an important tradition that I take so very seriously. For me, it is the perfect chance to reset, reconnect, and spend uninterrupted time with the women who've seen me through every season of life. We took a boat along the Amalfi Coast exploring the most beautiful places like Positano and Ravello, but my favorite memory was something much simpler. Every morning, we go down to the local beach and swim before anyone else arrived. The water was completely still and there's something so peaceful about starting your day that way. We also had these lovely long days where you spend the afternoon just exploring local markets, find somewhere beautiful to sit down for dinner and end up staying at the table long after dessert's been served. Those are the experiences that make me want to keep traveling. And with the holidays coming up, you might be planning a trip of your own. If your home is going to be empty while you're away, you could list your space on Airbnb and earn extra money to put towards your travels. That extra income could go towards another trip you're looking forward to, including one that becomes your own annual tradition. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. What did you do at that point when you understood, okay, I'm not going to be able to reconcile with Alex in the way that I expected and I'm not getting the answers that I need from Barstool. If if I were you in that situation with lawyers, it's like I'm like shut it down. I will sue you if you go ahead with this. >> Mhm. >> Speak to like this is now a legal situation. What did you do? >> I spoke to my lawyer. I didn't own the IP. This was what my attorney said. It is going to be very difficult for you to win this, whether it's on a defamation track or AIP track because your story's voice image is on the first 100 episodes. He said it's going to be a long, winded, will take years and a ton of money if you want to go down that route. And I don't advise you to do that. By that point, she had put out the YouTube video that made it very clear. She she put the narrative out, right? The whole in that video. And I was getting assassinated online. And I thought, do I want to drag this and be in the you know, court of public opinion when I have thousands and thousands of people telling me to go kill myself. No, I'm good. I don't think that my attorney understood podcasting, okay? >> I don't think your attorney understood life. >> But he had >> attorney didn't understand certainly didn't understand your rights. >> I have been in a situation plenty of times in my career where I've been given bad advice. the stakes are really really high, you take the advice you're given if it's coming from somebody that's trusted. You employ lawyers, advisors, consultants for a reason to advise you in in areas that you don't properly understand. And there's no way that your age with that experience you would understand like where your rights stood. >> I don't even think that my attorney's uh agents or publicists understood. This is an active cancellation. >> And listen, and I think again that adds a lens to all of this that makes it much more problematic. People are more worried about being in the court of public opinion, but this is a simple issue. And to me, had you have taken a second opinion from a lawyer, you would have had something very clearly to fight about. Now listen, you can should have could have would have this all you want. The point is you had horrible horrible representation and you were beaten down at that point because what happened is you became the villain in a story that millions of people were watching. And I'm curious to understand what that period actually taught you about what happens when you lose control of your own story and your own reputation. Like what what what have you learned from that moment? >> you know what's best and listen to your gut. Just because someone has years of legal just because there's a publicist who has represented these huge celebrities, they don't necessarily know better than you. >> I think it's really good advice. >> Mhm. >> And and you know we talk about gut so much, especially I think women in business talk about gut all the time. You have to actually understand what your gut instinct is, because it's it's your collective experience, right? Like, gut isn't like some like weird chemical that like bubbles around. It's like all the things that have happened to you, all of your collective experiences, and out of that comes like intuition. And so you know. You actually do have the answer. When when when I see people throw their hands up and like, I just don't know what to do. I just didn't know what next. It's like, no, you you usually have an inclin. You usually have a feeling. Are you scared? Is there a lot of fear attached? Was there other dynamics in this situation that were making the the hard things even harder? Absolutely, but I mean, yeah. You You were very poorly advised at that point. I have no doubt. >> Yeah. >> But I But I like your advice for other people listening, because I do think there is something to listening to your own intuition in that moment. >> I will say I, looking back, think staying silent was the smartest thing that I did because six years later I'm putting out this book. This is my IP. Okay? There's I can't talk about it, but you know, maybe there's a memoir adaptation. This book is meant to be a movie. It has all of the elements, and I own that. So do I regret not, you know, being as vocal or suing? No, I don't. I actually feel, if I look at everything like I don't want it to be a zero sum game, exactly what you were saying. I don't think someone has to be a winner and a loser, but I don't I feel like won. That doesn't mean she lost, but I feel like I won. >> After everything that happened, have you learned to trust yourself again? >> Beyond. Beyond. I'm so happy you said that because boy do I massively. >> I'm really happy to hear that. You should because listen, when you go through anything like this, and in fact all of us are going to go through failure. I've been through so many companies that have just like failed, things that I thought were going to be like magical and mesmerizing. I've plowed my own money into them and they've just fallen flat on the ground or I've been embarrassed. It's like all of that is your collective experience, right? It's like you've had by any stretch of the imagination like a really impressive career for someone your age. This is all just part of that. It's actually going to add to your experience and you're not going to have this type of situation again. >> It's already shown up in like the past month, you know, negotiating life rights, uh everything I've done knowing I'm go I'm back in the public, you know, Vanity Fair just wrote about me, The Times, like I'm back in this place that was really scary to be and now I am going into it. I'm ready. Bring it on. I have covered my bases. Let's go. >> Yeah, and when you know better, you do better. It's that simple. Obviously, the thing that you helped launch went on to become tremendously successful. How do you stop measuring your own life against that success? >> Time time. It's like when you go through a breakup, the only thing that 's going to heal it is enough time. You know, there's no magic fix. There's no get over someone by getting under someone else. Like that shit's not real. You know, it's time. >> Thanks for being honest because it does it just takes time. >> And I I've tried, you know, to get under and it didn't fix it. So. >> Fair enough. Fair enough. Tell me what does your life look like now? Like what's just a normal day for Sophia and what are you what are you excited about now? >> I'm excited to pursue these creative projects that are actually I feel aligned with. I think I I was working from a place of not alignment. I was in a trying to compete and now it's I'm married. I I Thank you. >> >> I love it. I love that ring. >> How of not just can we be? >> Just someone not >> I'm married. I want to whether I do a movie, whether I start a cooking show. I don't know how to cook. I want to be in a garden. Um >> Oh my god, I saw her yesterday. And I fan girls like like an actual crazy person. But yeah. >> She's coming out with a podcast. >> I think she is. And you need to go on. >> I need to go on. >> that's your that's it. I've got to teach you. >> >> How Now there's a show. >> I want to write a show about my stalker. >> Oh. >> I'm just going to throw that in there. >> a stalker? >> But he's so charismatic. But he's so charismatic. >> god. I have so many things I need to teach you. Like what is happening? You can't have a charismatic stalker. The two things can't go in the same sentence. >> I played you one of his audio messages, you would say otherwise. I'll write another book. I'm going to I'm going to spend a lot of my time in Europe where my husband is. >> Gorge. That I love for you. So chic. Very pre-kids. >> Yes and >> marriage Love. >> I I want to have kids. >> Oh, you do? >> That's going to be our next little >> Wow, it feels very domesticated this next part of your life. It's like cooking and kids and heaven. Absolutely heaven. >> but like we're on set, >> Yeah. >> directing, producing. >> Yes. I see this whole thing. Yeah. I I've got it down. Like honestly, no no questions, no arguments. I see the whole thing coming together right before my very eyes. Because you have a crazy fan base. When your fans reach out to you, what do they say? Like what do they what do they tell you? >> They are loyal on a level that only someone who has been through a public scandal and cancellation and these people stayed with me, that kind of fans. Like loyal beyond. And I love them and I can't wait to meet them. >> Oh, that's so nice. Well, you're going to have a huge moment with this book to get back, see your fans, have that moment. You said, and listen, just like around the book because I do think that you're going to have like such a moment around this book. You need a time and you need a distance to be able to park your ego and and tell this story with less ego. What has time allowed you to see and understand more clearly? >> I found myself in various moments writing when I was writing the book, drafting it, wanting to prove people wrong. There were moments where I said, Sophia, you have to tell it as radically honest as possible. And what has it taught me to remove the ego piece? It's taught me to be okay with who I am and not hang my hat on external things. You know, I had reputation, career, uh, boyfriend, like everything ripped away from me overnight. And so now going into business or anything, it's how does Sophia feel at the end of the day should everything blow up? Is she going to be okay? That's what I learned. >> Sophia, what do you imagine as you launch this book? You must have anticipated the rollout, >> Mhm. >> the response, the rhetoric, the commentary. >> Yeah. >> How are you thinking about all of that and what do you know to be true of yourself as you kind of step into this sort of like second wave, if you like? >> I think that it's going to be incredibly positive. I think this is going to resonate with people on a very intense scale because I'm very raw in the book. But also it worries me like could there be a deployment of thousands of bots that like spam and put negative comments? I mean, that's how people win campaigns these days. I don't know. I know but I just took it somewhere crazy but >> But that's what goes through your mind. >> That's now how my brain works going through what I've gone through is like think about the absolute craziest worst thing and how are we going to be protected. But I think I don't think I know people are going to love this book and that is what I've actually been wanting to say this whole time is I want to be respected as a writer and as a storyteller and as an author because that is what I'm good at. >> Well, you know, you wrote this book yourself without a ghost writer. >> Without. >> Um I ate it up. It was like an easy, breezy, like super juicy read. >> Yes. >> I have to tell you and I think that you know, I'm so grateful that you would come on today in the same way that I thought there was a lot of vulnerability in the book and a lot for people to take away and learn. I'm really grateful that you've come here and been honest and told your truth and um been really vulnerable because I think it's really, really difficult and I think that it is pretty amazing to see someone after the fact sit down and say here's the stuff that you know, I could have done better. This is this is the reality of what happened and that's impressive. >> And I'm very grateful for you to challenge me. Like I really respect that. So go order her daddy issues sophiafranklin.com >> There you go. >> or in any bookstore. >> In any bookstore. Listen, people are going to have a smash. I have absolutely no doubt. All we've got left is rapid fire. All right, my darling. What is your best dating advice? >> Have fun and don't take it too seriously. Date one. >> I love that. How would you define yourself in three words? >> Witty, charming, I hate this word, quirky. >> Quirky? >> I hate it. Like I really hate it, but I think I can sometimes land in that. But I'm also a basic Sorry, I had to do four or five words. >> That's all right. That's what a basic would do. THERE YOU GO. UM WHO'S ONE CELEBRITY YOU'D switch lives with for a week? >> Oh like anyone that's currently on Broadway. >> Oh, on Broadway? Oh. >> I'm I'm that girl. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Maybe Nicole Kidman. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, heaven. >> Heaven. Um, a career you think you'd be good at if you weren't doing this? >> Screenplay. >> Oh, I feel theater in one's future. >> >> I want to change my answer, interior design. >> Interior design? >> I'm really and every I feel like every woman says that, right? >> they don't. No, no, no. No. >> You don't think? I think >> Listen, you can do what you want. I've now got you down as like the new barefoot contessa. Interior design's much more aligned with where I was going than you and all jazz hands on me. You can do both. >> Why did I go jazz hands and why did I go like, you know, Easy-Bake Oven? It's interior design. >> Woman of many many talents and ambition. >> But interior design is my backup. >> that. Is there a book that's changed your perspective? >> I'm going to say a childhood book. The Missing Piece Meets the Big O by Shel Silverstein changed my perspective and made me incredibly independent. >> What do you still aspire to be or to become? >> Mm. To be or to become a mom and a woman able to be multifaceted because I don't think we are allowed to be that. >> Great answer. Sophia, thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining me on the Aspire podcast. For more strategies on how to build the life of your dreams, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. >>