Lang Kurar: The truth behind the NHS

can safely say 2022 was probably the hardest I've had to ever deal with but it's moments like that that create new opportunities for you most people dread the unknown not having a plan but I resented my life so much at that point I would do anything to get out he said if you don't stop drinking five things will happen the first thing will be you'll lose your job second thing is you'll lose your your house you'll lose your wife you lose your kids and eventually you lose your life it's sad but four of those things have happened already welcome back to the next level podcast on today's episode we have Lura aka the property surgeon but just before I get into the podcast I wanted to give you guys a quick trigger warning we're going to be talking about coid suicide and mental health a GMC case and telling us the truth of what it's really like behind the lines working in the NHS L welcome to the next level podcast so take me back to your early years what's made you into the person you are today that's a very good question um so I I had a lot of hardship actually growing up so we used to move around as a family all over the place because my dad was an orthopedic surgeon as well and we got brought up in Saudi Arabia um for 10 years and that was uh that was a different world so um essentially we we uh got we were essentially labeled xats so we didn't really have a home I came here with an American accent uh I used to call chips french fries and back in um in Saudi Arabia we used to have uh these compounds which we used to live in where we had about 300 odd houses uh all from different expats different different uh parts of the world these individuals used to be and um yeah it was uh it was interesting because we didn't really feel like we we had a home growing up um but my dad like I say he was an orthopedic surgeon he took me into theater when I was very young so he took me in when I was 14 and I remember um he was doing a dissection of a knee so he was doing a total knee replacement and I was cowering at the back so I had um my full scrub top on and I didn't really know um I didn't really know my place but he he told me to come in get in closer and have a look and I remember he was dissecting this knee and he he flexed the knee up and the knee joint nearly hit me in the face and I I thought wow this is so cool I have never seen anything like this before uh and that's that's that was the time where I thought you know what Orthopedics is for me um and that sort of set me up um to med school so I we like I say we grew up in Saudi Arabia and then I came to the UK when I was um when I was 14 and then uh went straight into med school from there uh after a couple of years in school and um yeah everything everything geared up to towards med school and I thought uh looking at these TV shows like Scrubs and and the rest I thought that's what medicine was like but I was sadly proved very wrong no we're going to talk talk a lot about that in a minute um but tell me about the relationship with with your dad what was that like so my dad was always a bit of a disciplinarian um and he was quite regimental growing up um and he was very academic focused and actually without my dad I probably wouldn't have the work ethic that I have now but because of the stresses and strains of the job and he he came from a very underprivileged background so he grew up in a village in India he didn't have access to books um he was one of the few people from his village who made it U into a major hospital and actually one of the few friends in his school who's actually bought a house in the UK and that's the equivalent of say someone being sourced from a village in India to making it in the UK as a full full-blown Orthopedic consultant that's the equivalent of becoming a billionaire almost to put things into perspective and he used to work uh till 3:00 a.m. in the morning and get up 6:00 a.m. and go to work again and I think that work ethic is instilled but obviously with balance is incredibly difficult to maintain when you have that sort of Lifestyle your priorities in life have to be the people around you your friends and your family because when you're 80 all the materialism that you have that you think is important now you know earning an income having the best house on the street having the biggest and brightest car that means nothing to you because you're not going to take any of that back home with you it's going to be the people who are around you that make that transition easier and they'll always be there but they won't be if you don't if you don't treat them right so it was it was a hard lesson and with every life comes a lesson and that's one of the major ones that I learned from him what made you take that responsibility on with your dad cuz you've taken the responsibility on of trying to help your dad recover haven't you I was very angry growing up and experiencing that and I think when you're when you're young and you're exposed to sort of emotional turmoil and physical turmoil at home because of the alcohol you become very bitter and resentful but then the more mature you become and the more experienced and more aged you become you start to have a degree of insight into the fact that it's an addiction and it's not necessarily his fault and once you change your mindset and you come to terms and realization with this that's when you want you feel obliged to help because ultimately my dad he supported us he never said no to us if there was anything can I have a PlayStation can I have this can we go on holiday here it was never no he always said yes that is one thing that I'll take take from him that was hugely beneficial and one thing that I'll try I always try to preserve myself but with that obviously came came the shortcomings but it's a change of mindset and when your parents get older there's this weird transition that happens I think in everyone that they were looking after you your entire life but there sh there becomes an obligation to look after them because they're they're getting old they acquire ailments which you know they never had when they were younger osteoarthritis high blood pressure whatever it may be and there's this obligation and and this feeling that you you you want to look after that so you're saying that's made you into the person you are today along with some other stuff would you change any of that I wouldn't change any of that I wouldn't change any of that because our past and our inner turmoil and what we experience defines who we are as a person that's why each of us in this room that's why you're different from me because we haven't we haven't come across the same obstacles we haven't worked against the same resistance and that's great that's brilliant because if we because the the beautiful thing about life is you need to take solace and the victories come from the failures that you have and the difficulties that you experience in life L I don't know if you you know about this uh this story um so I was reading this on the way here actually The Gardener and the Butterfly have you heard of this um so the butterfly it matures in a cocoon and a gardener was walking past one day and he saw this uh he saw this butterfly struggling in its cocoon and being the Civil person that he is he wanted to help the butterfly so he grabbed his scissors and he cut the Cocoon open but what happened was this butterfly stayed on the floor its wings were frail its body was mated it hadn't matured and that butterfly passed away in 3 days sometimes what we need in life and the metaphor is this that sometimes what we need in life is is angst weakness and and friction and difficulty because that's what creates who we are and that butterfly needed to grow and cultivate in that cocoon because it's it's only through movement in a confined environment that the butterfly achieves strength in its wings to fly so I think that's a testament to anyone that if you don't have any difficulty or resistance you don't grow and that's why I probably wouldn't change anything because it's given me perspective BR tell me what happened next in your life what was the next stage your of your life so I went through med school I graduated and we had a little chat about this earlier but going into medicine as a blur eyed juvenile medic I had no idea what to expect and in this particular hospital we were thrown in the deep end um so as a junior doctor we were're labeled a foundation doctor so Foundation doctor year one is the first year out of med school and that's what I was and we got thrown into to the deep end we were finishing every day on our medical ward rounds at 11 p.m. at night so this was not on call this was routinely 11:00 p.m. I remember I was doing 80 patient Ward rounds and it was insufferable it was it was horrible one of my friends just physically couldn't get to a patient who was dropping their blood pressure and over the phone he just relay the message to to the nurses just to give them more more fluid he couldn't physically get to them because he was inundated with sick patients and this patient unfortunately passed away because they had a spenic rupture which was undiagnosed following a a car crash um and to death um and and unfortunately these circumstances they're not unheard of but they're not advertised either and the reason being that it's such a stretched Workforce even back then 10 years ago 11 years ago when I was an F1 and it's the situation has has gotten worse what that makes you is incredibly robust um to deal with any sort of scenario any emergency but I I remember you know the there's a regulatory body called the Care Quality commission that went around and reviews Hospital's performance and they went around to this hospital and magically this Hospital recruited five extra locom doctors per team to make it looked like we finished at 5:00 p.m. every day and then magically disbanded these locom as soon as their Care Quality commission left and this Hospital painted the walls white they did everything to try and give this imp impression that everything was Rosy when it wasn't and unfortunately it's papering over the over the cracks and this is this is what's happening on a on a daily basis in the NHS what was the impact on yourself and obviously your your colleague at the time when that person bled out and my my colleague was obviously devastated for me I in internalize most of those emotions because no one's going to look at you any way differently it's a a sign of weakness if um if you demonstrate that you're a failing doctor particularly if you if if this uh if you even quote mental health uh at that time then especially then 10 years ago where it wasn't as too as it is now um it was seen as a sign of weakness and you had to internalize this you had to put your head down I got told that you put your head down you work hard you don't say no you do everything that you're told and you go through your training program and you get spat out the other end as a consultant and that's the status quo and that's what we had to we had to do invariably as as clinicians and look the other way and essentially look the other way and essentially look the other way we when we did report these things we get castrated as whistleblowers and essentially we were told just to maintain the status quo and it's difficult um to see this dayto day and and um you know I think it's it's a part and parcel of of the way we're perceived in the public now I remember when I when I left medicine the the last thing a patient said to me in clinic he walked in with pristine hips better than mine um and I told him that he didn't warrant a total hit replacement and he told me looking straight at me um I deserve this treatment because I pay your wages and and I said to and by then I I I was done so I told him just because he pays his taxes he payes pays his my wages so I just looked at him and I said look I pay my own wages I pay her wages and I pay his wages so here's a complaint for him and get the hell out of my clinic room funny enough I got a complaint at the end of it but by then I was done and this is the perception of the public at the moment just because the staff the workforce is so stretched there's Obe weeks of delay in treatment it's impossible to to satisfy everyone and then when you hear stories like that that I told you earlier it's no it's no surprise that the public feeli the way they do it's just a failing system at the moment is there any other cases or situations you can tell me about um so I I mean this was a really tough time so when I chose when I made a life decision to to pursue surgery so one of the decisions that you get you get thrown is whether you want to pursue medicine or you want to pursue surgery M and when I first Jo surgery I always held bent on Orthopedics throughout my throughout my training I got thrown into a hospital with had which had a strong bullying and harassment culture even before I had arrived and when I arrived I remember some of the some of the guys some of my fellow trainers used to tell me you know you've got a bullseye on your back and I don't know why and I couldn't understand it myself I remember I used to walk around in uh as a wardr um and say a patient would get moved and because this consultant um needed to speed up or to expedite his wardr as quickly as possible and I didn't know where this this patient had gone to he picked up my notes and just threw them across the The Ward and then just started shouting at me in the middle of the ward this this is a regular currence unfortunately um in most mainly surgical discipline um certainly where I've worked at and again you just turn a blind eye when you see it because this is the stus quo if you whistleblow then then you attract more criticism for yourself and I remember we we have annual assessments appraisals to assess our clinical performance make sure we're safe to progress to the next year they're called Arps so usually it's about a three panel arcp I had a 12 panel arcp and one of them told me or asked me have you been bullied in this hospital and I was so terrified I said no you know everything's been Rosy everything's great um and then the alcp ended with a good outcome and then one of them walked outside and put their arm around me and said don't worry mate you can tell me it's fine nothing will happen and it'll be a change for the better have you been bullied and I said maybe a little um but it's ending now um and I only have two months to see out there so it's okay and the Very the very next day so we have our trauma meetings where we sit in a in a big room everyone from the orthopedic Department's in there the nurses the Consultants the trainees we review all the on call cases the previous day and we also review we also review the x-rays from from the cases done prior but before the meeting even started the Lynch bin in the whole operation uh had said can everyone leave the drum meeting room apart from Lang so he sat me down and he said Lang uh so I hear on the Great Vine that you told uh your arcp panel that you've been bullied here is that true obviously I said no you guys have been brilliant thank you for being such brilliant trainers you guys have been so supportive um and he said okay that's great thank you very much I'm going to send you an email in an hour I want you to check your email print it out for me sign it and post it to me under my door in a letter so I checked my email and he typed for batim everything I'd said which is that he was a brilliant trainer that there was no evidence of willing harassment in this in this hospital and he asked me to sign it and give it to him um and I did just purely because we're expected to put our head down graft and just get out the other side as as consultants and if we whistleblow that's where we attract problems for ourselves so that was quite tough and then coid really did a number of us I think quite a few of us I I think I'm quite hard shelled I think I'm quite Resolute but that was the first time I genuinely felt and I was actually in stationed in swinden during this time that was the first time I genuinely felt hopeless we were hopeless as a medical task Force we just had no idea how to solve this issue I remember we we stopped all elective operating and I was stationed in itu the first day I walked in itu there were people you're and my age 30 30 year olds 35 year olds flipped like pancakes prone um on breathing apparatuses because they can breathe for themselves perfectly healthy individuals and itu was so rammed we had spill over into the theaters so we had to open elective theaters just to house itu patients who were fit and healthy and we used to tell 60-year-old patients sorry we we can't resuscitate you if you get unwell even if they came in with this with this paper cut we made them sign a form telling them that we can't actually resuscitate you if you can track Co here so it was it was horrible um yeah we we I think a few of us are still recovering from that but yeah I mean there was there was a lot that culminated in me in me leaving medicine um there was I remember you know this this is really tough to talk about um take your time a bit um so so I was quite close to my grand last year um she passed away um and one of the things she said to me is you know Lang I used to see a lot of you and I don't see you anymore and I was also told that I can go to my sister's wedding um despite requesting annual leave 6 months prior to that date and then had it cancelled two weeks before uh it was due and this is this is the sad State of Affairs right now we have no autonomy as doctors uh we get told where we're meant to be we get told how many hours we work and if we whistleblow that's that's on us how how do we change this we need to incentivize staff to stay I mean you've seen the junior doctor strikes are happening right now so for the first three days consultants and consultants and Junior doctors are striking together this is unprecedented and why is that the case it's because we're not being paid per hour that we work it's it it's unfortunately it does come down to money when you have nurses and you have doctors who are struggling to make ends meet and to even afford rent in London and yet they're working 12 hours in the hospital it's it's a broken system I read an article the other day about incentivizing nurses to stay by disbanding their their student loans after 10 years and nurses on average do you know how much debt they acrew cool so about 65,000 after nurse's training and they don't earn anywhere near that it's labeled the lifetime tax and this was proposed and shut down by the health Minister because the reasoning he gave is because nurses aren't financially incentivized that's true they're not but when they're struggling to even put food on the table unfortunately money it always boils down to money you need you need sustenance and with an unfit Workforce you can't work we we'll go on to we'll go on to that in a second I want to just touch on something you said in during CO as well and actually something before that you when you was put before the panel what sort of emotions were you feeling cuz I would imagine if someone going to be listening to this um that wants to speak out that can't what would your advice be to them my advice is you have more support now than you ever did and I would take I would take heed of that because I seriously burnt out and there's some emotional scars there I have deep resentment for the NHS because of what I internalized and I let be and my passion for Orthopedics seriously waned because of it I loved operating I loved seeing patience but because of all the bureaucracy that went behind that I resented what I did and the one thing I would say is don't burn out because of this or I would say is speak up because other people are feeling exactly the same as you and you have more support now via other other channels like the BMA um and um and other student uh other uh training bodies that can really that can really help you um and support you and that sort of behavior is being stamped out and not tolerated and I wish I was told not to maintain the status quo and I wish that as a novice juvenile ignorant trainee not to be so blinded by issues like bullying and harassment because if you do speak up I guarantee you that there are hundreds of other people in your shoes and unfortunately surgery isn't renowned for this because there's something called the European working time directive which came into play majority of hospitals we're were asked to tick that tick the exemption in that box of Surgeons because we're expected to be in the hospital and our Consultants would tell us that in my day in my day we used to live in the hospital and we used to work these hours so what are you complaining about and I used to run around like a headless chicken like I told you 12 hours straight every day and I as a junor doctor and I never had time to take a piss I didn't have time to eat I developed a kidney stone when I was an F2 not many people know about this I was got I I got told by the medical consultant I would probably need a nephrostomy I was terrified Frost to me is when they stick a tube in your back to try and drain the kidney stone and um thankfully I didn't need one but that's all because I didn't have time to drink because I was running around trying to look after patients that I couldn't physically get to it's an uphill task for a lot of lot of clinicians and I do feel for the task force at the moment and and the junior doctor strike it it doesn't get enough media attention but the most recent article I've read is that Junior doctors aren't leaving and that the numbers now aren't any different to 2010 and that is unfortunately not the case because there's been an exponential increase in the number of doctors who are taking breaks after their training so after foundation training or after core surgical training and they're not coming back and it's a sad State of Affairs so what do we say to people that are looking to join yeah just well it's sad but you ask any I've asked all my colleagues I've asked my Consultants even would you recommend this to your kids and all of them have said all of them have said no because they want a happier lifestyle there's also this false perception that doctors earn a lot and they work in private seor about this outside yeah and it's it's not the case you're contractually obliged to work in the NHS for 3 days a week and there you you're essentially doing a public service and then the rest of your week is your time so you can decide not to work you can decide to work one day two day 3 days or four days in the n in private but your private insurance fees are 30k your theater overheads you have to pay your nursing staff you have to pay your an statist all of that comes out of your earnings so you may charge 10K for total knee replacement I had one boss who told me that he had to do two hip replacements every Saturday to break even to break even and he'd only be making money if he did three or four so you have to make a decision as a clinician if you want to live in London and if you want to be able to afford rent this isn't this is an exaggeration but if you want to be comfortable you won't have a life you're expected to work six days a week because you can't half ass it in private practice you can't say I'm going to work one day a week because you'll end up in deficit and I suppose from that if you want to live that life do then the does the wrong decision often get made because you're chasing that money and having to pay rent it's a knock on effect isn't it so it directly impacts your family life and that builds greater resentment because you're at work and that feeds through to how you treat your patients exactly and essentially we're cogs in a system and we treat each patient as a number and that's what it boils down to that um that empathy that I used to have when I was a fledgling Junior doctor that gets be now of you and that's ultimately what happens like in your business leis if you commit to one thing something's going to fall by the wayside it's just it's impossible to balance um yeah talk to me about the GMC case so so this this was one of the triggers uh for me leaving um when I was a junior doctor again in the same Hospital which was now been inducted for bullying uh their trainee it has yeah there was um there was a 91y old who was admitted with a chest infection um who unfortunately fractured their humor so their arm bone and this patient sadly passed away from their chest infection now this patient also had multiple ailments so they were diabetic uh they had a failing heart and this happens all the time unfortunately when patients get old particularly 91 year olds at that time multicore morbid patients um if they do contract a chest infection it's likely to spread and they're likely to become really unwell from it now unfortunately the the relatives had complained expain to the hospital that the treatment was suspect um and to appease the relatives there was a uh root cause analysis meeting that uh was held behind closed doors between The Clinical Director the consultant in charge and not me um I didn't even know this was happening and I was the most Junior member of the team at the time like I say I was fresh aled School um and this patient was being reviewed daily by the consultant and they were told or what was said in this meeting was that the wrong antibiotics had been prescribed by a junior doctor at the wrong time and this is why that patient passed away and I didn't know anything about this all I got told at the time and I remember this consultant telling me this was don't worry there's a case and we're dealing with it don't worry you won't have to stress about it I was like great thank you for having my back and 5 years later I found out about this because what happened was the relatives had basically an open Mission apology from the hospital following this root cause analysis meeting admitting fault blaming me they accepted a payout the relatives weren't happy so they went straight to the GMC and then the GMC filed a legal complaint against me and I didn't even remember this patient because we saw so many and this is over five years so I had to go through the notes and I remember when we're represented by a legal body called the medical defense Union the MDU and my lawyer told me there's nothing in this L don't worry 30% of cases uh proceed to a full investigation this is unlikely to proceed because you were the most Junior doctor at the time unfortunately it did proceed because what I had said differed to the events in the root cause analysis meeting so I had to go through a 300 page medical bundle looking at nurses notes looking at the occupational therapist notes the physio notes and my notes and what happened in terms of the timeline was shocking I got told that this patient was mildly short of breath on a weekend when I was on call I reviewed this patient 15 minutes later and Mild shortness of breath doesn't warrant an onall doctor seeing them emergence thankfully I saw this patient 15 minutes after the rais their call I diagnosed the chest infection after a clinical assessment and I prescribed the right antibiotics at the right time in accordance with microbiology guidelines at the time which were also published in the bundle and because my entry my verdict differed from the root cause analysis meeting they had to open this up into a full investigation and the final GMC verdict after they look through the notes was this doctor practice within exactly the right guidelines that we recommend and this is an example of clear skate coating and that was one of the triggers for me for leaving because I couldn't deal with the with the harassment and the bullying anymore I just couldn't I I see it every day and I was no longer willing to turn a blind eye to it and I'm glad I am glad and I thank every day it happened because I loved Orthopedics I loved what I did and it would have taken something Monumental for me to leave not allowing me to go to my sister's wedding canceling anual leave for my birthday all of these things they're minor scrapes for me but that was the final nail in the coffin and I'm so glad it happened because I wouldn't have the courage to leave how did that impact your mental health I was I was really down I was I was down I was a I was a dead man walking it came at a time so the GMC case came at a time when I really struggled postco um you know dealing with the levels of mortality for patients and telling relatives that we can do anything to resuscitate them because it was against our guidelines yeah and uh I was going through a breakup at the time um I um yeah it I was living in a property um where the landlord tried to confiscate £3,000 from me um and I had to take them to court because of you know wrongful negligence and I claimed all of that back and um yeah and and obviously the career coming to an end so and my grand passing away so you know all of this happened within such a short time frame I can safely say 2022 was probably the hardest I've had to ever deal with but it's moments like that that create new opportunities for you and there there is a there is a famous phrase that um is the definition of lunacy is doing the same thing twice and expecting the different outcome and I was doing the same thing twice every year I was told by my relatives my family didn't have the same Insight I had that the more senior you become the better it'll become because you're more you crew more responsibility more respect and that's not the case I see you know the more senior you become you you get to see what the grass is like on the other side as a consultant and it is not greener I can tell you that much um and sometimes you have to break to remold and become stronger and happier and you know there there is I don't know if you've read this the five regrets of the dying so I wish it I wish I I made myself more happier I wish I didn't conform to other people's whims I wish I saw my family more and friends more I wish I took more risks and I wish I didn't work as hard and I don't want to have those regrets and I know I was going that way um and that's why i' made a change what was the lonliest point at that moment um I remember I remember I had an ankle fracture playing football last year in 2022 as well um that's another thing that compounded things and I was still asked to come in and do a clinic and I was in agony I was walking around with a walking boot seeing patience and I was expected to be there and no empy uh and I came back with you know my grand on my head and that and again you taught to internalize all these things and I remember just sitting at home just writing I got a pad out um and I wrote my oneyear goals and my one-year goal in medicine was to pass my exam to be an albeer consultant go through fellowship and then I made another entry one year goal of quitting medicine not knowing where the what the hell I'm going to do um but that made me happier it was really odd um just most people dread the unknown not having a plan but I resented my life so much at that point I would do anything to get out and that was not a risk for me was you scared no because I'd hit rock button and again there's another phrase that when you hit Ro beware the man who's or woman who's hit rock bottom because they have nothing to lose and that was me what did it look like yeah dark explain dark yeah you feel lonely you feel isolated you just you feel that you're the only one going through this and no one's there to help you the people around you they're very stoic and hard hard skinned they've all been through that you you say these things and no one's there to hold your hand you've got to do this on your own and then you've you've come out of that now I've come out of that now there is one thing I wanted to say as well I wanted to ask you a question actually um and I got told this uh when I was at my lowest point uh and and I read read this as well myself actually um so you have two wolves you might have heard them you have two wolves one wolf represents Darkness loneliness mhm failure the other wolf represents ambition motivation light who wins neither who wins who wins can I give you a clue yeah go the one you feed yeah and I was feeding that one the darkness the pessimism the failure that's where I was in 2022 and it took a huge mind shift and actually it was my grand that was the turning point for me when she said that she used to see a lot of me and not anymore okay that was the trigger for me to feed the light so tell me about your grandon uh I was saying this to my auntie actually the other day I've never met someone so wealthy as my grand and we always think wealth is measured by monetary value of that person but I've seen death all my life and I've treated it and I've treated the relatives who go through it and when we pronounce patients uh who have passed away in in hospital we go through a checklist and then we just cover them with a sheet and usually there's no one around them usually it's 3:00 a.m. in the morning I've never seen someone pass away with so many people around her who loved and cared for her as much as as my grand she didn't she wasn't educated she was never after money she was never materialistic anything she earned she'd give and to put it into perspective she only she she was she was picking up her grandkids from school and she met rishy sunak wife and just through her own just being the way she was rushy sunak wife from that one episode visited her on her deathbed there were people calling her from who we hadn't seen for years on Skype and genuinely if I had half lived half the life that she has I would be the happiest person in the world it's about getting the balance right as you said family I my priorities have switch switched significantly last year it was work then family then my health it's completely flipped this year your health is number one and should always be a priority because if you're not healthy you're good to no one number two is your family and friends because they should always be a priority and number three is work because your work colleagues they're not going to be around your deathbed when you pass and you don't want to be there with no with any regrets you don't want to be in your deathbed with a wish that I wish I worked harder and spent less time with my family and friends no one's ever said that so talking about your family what what did your family say during everything that was going on in in 2022 could you not turn to them we were all going through a different difficult time with my grand passing away um so we were all mourning I didn't want to offload on anyone else they were already going through their own um process and the people I did confin in there was a lot of admiration for what I did and it was also based on their perspective of what other people in medicine in our family and outside were doing and if they could go through this I mean my dad went through racism he went through bullying he went through harassment he went through far more than I did if he can go through it why can't you that was the reaction I used to get and that's what maintained me for so long do you feel there was an expectation putting yourself to to live up to that um to a degree especially when it wasn't only me who put in the time and effort to get to where I am I need needed help from my mom my dad my sister you know my cousins everyone around me my friends they supported me throughout so they were emotionally invested in this as well there was a degree that I was laying them down um but ultimately like I told you health is a priority and I was miserable you couldn't stand being around me um back then I any positive ity that someone would bring I would sap that from them and tell them how miserable life was within 2 minutes of meeting me and you can tell that to my mom the difference now compared to what it was like back then is day and night so when you was feeding that negative W something I know about you that not many people may know is that you had a good friend commit suicide yes so I've had a few actually um so one in Birmingham um so I I trained with her temporarily as a as a junior doctor and then she moved up to Birmingham and then another one in swinden um and this is what happens when you dust pulling and harassment and the pressures of the workforce and when you dust this under the carpet this can happen and people fail to recognize the cause for help and people are too scared to tell their story and tell their experiences this can happen and it was no surprise what were the calls for help and the reason I keep going on about this is I think it's so important for other people family members friends to recognize what your calls were what their calls were the places people come reach out for help um because you've been through it you've witnessed other people's calls yeah um everyone's different they are and their calls for help May manifest differently vocally they may confide in you and say I can't deal with it anymore which has happened um I'd rather jump off a cliff than go to work the next day has been said to me another thing said to me is I rather cut myself um and the only thing you can do there is just reassure because you know we all go through it it's all tough you develop a hard skin and you just crack on do you believe that not now oh no there's there there's this egotistical mentality that you surround yourself with like-minded individuals who are ambitious and driven and anyone who de demonstrates any sign of weakness you leave them by the wayside because you don't want to resonate that you don't want them to drag you down and there's that exists in all walks of life all businesses all Specialties not just medicine but sometimes reaching down to drag someone up with you is can open so many doors for you you wouldn't believe and that's not approaching it from a selfish point of view if you're if you're a genuinely supportive individual who helps people in time of need you'll never know when that arm gets reached out to you when you need it and everyone does life is a show and you you need all you the help you can get and you should give all the help you can get and this is why a podcast like this with someone like yourself with amount of people that are going on strike now um with someone that's speaking out you people will reach out you are they able to reach out you yeah of course I've already cited three or four doctors who have left the NHS and they are far happier now and I haven't met one Doctor Who's left the NHS and is resentful for it or is willing to return and that speaks volumes about where we are and it is scary because the one thing that we hold so dear um and we're so patriotic about in this country is the NHS and it is dying and all the people who are running it are leaving and you're filling these holes with individuals who may not be trained and it's not safe when you're hearing about ambulances being able to attend someone who's having a heart attack within 6 hours that's a problem that's an issue and I don't seek gratification from citing people who are in the NHS outside of it I don't seek gratification for it what I do seek gratification for is how how unhappy they were and how happy they are now because you only get one shot at life and I think that's it brings me nicely onto your your personal life now how you're moving forward now how you've youve transitioned from where you was to where you are now tell me a little bit more about what it is that you're doing now so right now I'm working in Pharmaceuticals so I'm very privileged to have the job that I have now it's remote working which means I can work from anywhere and essentially what I do is related to what I did as a surgeon so I look at new beeding implants that come onto the market or prospectively coming onto the market and I certify them as safe dependent on the level of evidence there is to justify this this implant so a hip replacement or knee replacement is it safe give it the rubber stamp of approval and then Mass distribute and actually I'm probably benefiting a lot more people doing this so I get that validation from that aspect but also gives me my life back you know the ability to work from anywhere and also see my friends and my family I see them more than I ever did you know once a week is is brilliant for me I get to see my niece and my nephew grow up that is the best thing you cannot replace that with any materialism in the world and I told you about my priorities being Health number one I go to the gym every day sometimes twice a day and I've never been fitter I'm 35 going on 36 this year compared to where I was 22 I can out Sprint out jump outlift that person any day of the week um and and from a property side of things that was really spurred on by my gr um because I want to have that autonomy in the future to be able to spend time with my friends and family and property gives you that it gives you that balance it gives you that lifestyle that ability to to spend time with your loved ones um and that's the that's the ultimate goal I suppose it comes back to finally like you've just said there the balance but you had to to make the jump yeah just before I go on that what would you say is more ethical working for NHS or doing what you're doing now well the immediate answer that anyone can jump to is it's far more ethical working as a doctor surely but when it takes 6 hours for an ambulance to get to a to heart attack victim or a patient and you're you're treating five different patients at once when you can't physically reach someone who's bleeding out in bed with a splenic rupture giving that patient fluids just to try and maintain them as best you can because you've got hundreds of other patients to deal with is that ethical I feel like what I'm doing now is probably on a par if not more ethical than what I used to do it comes down to helping people how many people can you help by doing what you're doing now is it more well how many Hipp basements do you site in an individual with one implant you can the numbers are infinite that's what I mean and could you do that where you was but not only that it for me personally I mean you know the way I operate your overall health um and well-being is is Paramount and obviously look at where you are now compared to where you was you're in a better relationship we we go and talk about that anyway your your Fitness is is definitely better health and fitness and your property Journey yeah so it would appear it is the better option for you so anyone that's looking to get started within the NHS I'd certainly say reach out to yourself maybe not not say no don't start get started within the NHS but there may be another alternative let's say yeah I think when you're in the NHS you get tunnel vision because I mean I'm a surgeon wielding my scalpel in the public usually doesn't go very well so what skill set can I have which is transferable that's why I was thinking when I left but there's so many options that you can apply the number of individuals number of companies that are looking for hard hard workare Focus doctors it's it's huge um so one door one door closes you can have 12 that open you just have to put yourself in that position to make yourself as hirable as possible um just wanted to this is not touching on something you've just said there you you had a a relationship for apart didn't you you had uh you was engaged I was engaged yeah tell me a little bit more about that why why did that fall apart multiple reasons um so I think partly probably due to the stress of the job so I wasn't seeing her as often as as I uh maybe would have liked distance was an issue so she worked in Hall and I worked in London um but also I suppose we just didn't we just weren't compatible my my interest in align with hers was trust an issue um not necessarily I don't think trust was an issue um I just don't think we had the same interest the reason I ask I would imagine that under those working conditions there's going to be families that there's so much pressure put on them that they find it hard to actually have a relationship that's why I asked the question that is there even a relationship or is it a case of you go home you go to bed you get up take the kids to school go to work well this this not only applies to medicine but all walks of life yeah you know what are the divorce rates at the moment 50% it's more than that is it I think it would be well I got divorced in 2021 yeah I think it's I mean obviously I'm part of that statistic but I would imagine it's increased due obviously due to CO as well yeah but it was fairly high before that and you've hit the nail on the head in terms of the main reason you get married to your job you come home and you give off the worst of yourself to your partner y do the dishes sit and watch Netflix and you go to bed and then you transfer any stresses that you have at work home it's never the other way around it can be the other way around but it's usually it's you usually give off the worst of yourself when you have a really demanding uh demanding job and you don't get that balance right and and this is one thing that I'm doing so avidly and so I try to focus on as much as I can with my current partner is life experiences she whips you into shape oh she does yeah big up she she um she we it's really important that with any partner you grow together and the best way you can do that is through experiencing different events together whether that be new restaurants whether that be ice skating for the first time whether that be traveling to Japan for the first time whether that be be doing tough M we did that um you know for the first time together um last weekend and that was actually the oneye anniversary of when we when we met and most people think you know oneye anniversary why the hell would you want to be electrocuted why the hell would you want to be um you know submerged in an Arctic enema um but it was brilliant we grew together and the experiences and the memories that we paint from events like that it brings you closer together and when you go home and you binge watch on Netflix that is a recipe that can spiral um to a very toxic place and that can impact all areas other areas of your life when you're not happy in your relationship not happy in your job it's it's it's inevitable and that's why I said that one of the things that didn't work out was we weren't aligned in my previous relationship you have to grow together and I think you at the know there as well I think the main thing that obviously because you neither of you have children but I'm currently doing it with children and my partner has children as well so together we've got five and it's it's expensive but you can do it yeah um the main thing is communication yes you have to communicate what three what I'm going to ask you a question now yeah what three things do you look for in a partner got to have good eyes good bum um they've got to be emotional Weare yes um I'll be honest they got to be able to communicate yeah that that is pretty much it you got to be emotionally aware of what's going on got to be aware of just a nice human yeah and that is if they're emotionally intelligent and aware of what's going on they'll be able to communicate with you if if there's a breakdown in communication it's not going to work but from day one and this may seem arrogant to anyone else listening I will tell them what my priorities are and that's my my health and fitness yeah if if that don't fly with them it's not going to work with me and you I agree I agree and and that's just as it is and Sarah's exactly the same she she goes to the gym I mean she's um you know a dental surgeon she works brutal hours and also works in the private sector and still makes time for the gym every morning she wakes up at 5:30 you know she smashes it and I'd probably say the three things I look for like you said emotional stability yeah you you have to you have to have level-headed conversation because you're going to have frictions in a relationship you're going to have resistance there going to be elements you disagree on but how you approach that is hugely important I I think through learning again through previous relationships the financial side of stuff um I know I'll be okay yeah um and through that I've learned so will they but I'd never I'd never put pressure on them to look after them because each individual's going to after themselves yeah um that's what I've learned yeah and I should want to yeah absolutely I think the other two would probably be and this is going to rob a lot of people up probably the wrong way but the ability to succumb to you and that works both ways because women now particularly now they Pride themselves on being fiercely independent mhm and when when you have two fiercely independent individuals with independent personalities you never get close and the ability to lean on someone and rely on someone is huge and it's that succumb succumbing to someone and again like I say this works both ways can be hugely powerful in getting closer with someone and building that emotional connection um um and then probably the third one would be ambition for me there's nothing more attractive than someone who you can build an Empire with M because no one's perfect I certainly am not and I have a lot of blind spots and the ability to go to to Sarah and ask her should I do business with this guy should what should I should I pursue this m this house this property is a a worthy investment to be able to have that level of insight I think to grow an empire together is huge it is but I mean touching on your second Point what made you think of that is I'm interested probably my previous relationship um yeah it was uh she she she was fiercely independent and so is sah to be fair I mean she she is incredibly independent but even together she was and I guess we just didn't and I was too so I was equally as culpable as her um probably why we we grew apart is there a fun line between obviously if you're both independent which I know you are is there a fine line between becoming um this soundboard where you just listen all of the time or then you share oversharing how do you prevent that I don't think you should ever even I I don't think that should ever cross your mind because like you said you communication is Paramount and you shouldn't really put any barriers to that what you share and what you shouldn't share ultimately I'm in open canvas with the person who I'm in a relationship with so that the reason I ask it comes down to the other individual's triggers insecurities if they can't then potentially talk about a certain subject oh yeah yeah I agree um so this is in my previous relationship um she hated talking about money so there we go she didn't talk about you couldn't talk business ventures didn't talk about property all my sort of dwindling passions or fledgling fledgling passions um I can talk about with her because she even at one point said you're really boring me all you do is talk about money yeah and and it was like an immediate wall I could relate to her and you know drinking going out to bars and you know that that's not something I mean occasionally yeah that's good fun to do in an event like a birthday or whatever but it's not something that I have a passion for or something I I really get excited about talking uh to um or talking about so yeah is it was a wall what what would you say is your biggest insecurity probably my parents well what about it uh just you know when I was younger I used to be this like stick figure used to have acne all over the place I had you know I had a broken nose after playing Cricket broken two places uh I just wasn't the best looking uh person on the street I guess you could say um yeah and I still have those slight insecurities now how does it make you feel having those insecurities not great I'm not going to lie but uh the more the older I've gotten The more I've realize that actually no one gives a what you look like no one cares they're probably going to look at you and then forget about you the next minute so um you know all this stuff about you know my clothes got to look a certain way or I've got to look a certain way I've got bags in my eyes got a spot on my head all this stuff that that tends to go the older you become because you you become more mature you have more insight um and you start to realize you know other people have other agendas they don't care about what you look like and I think it becomes this selfishness that you develop over a period of time that if you're happy in the moment um and I spoke with Rob more about this and we actually shared the same opinion happiness is an emotion it's not a a thing it's you can feel happy but in that particular moment in time you can feel sad angry happy but this word happy people throw around too much um as long as you're happy in that particular moment that insecurity will go yeah and a lot of people will hopefully resonate with that yeah and actually I've CH I've learned to channel that insecurity to make me better and the way I've done that is through the gym so I originally went to the gym purely of Aesthetics I didn't really care about the mental side of things in terms of mental health and releasing endorphins making you feel better or the health implications it was purely aesthetic I wanted to look bigger I wanted to look more musly to make myself look more attractive um and that sort of that insecurity drove that gym process but now obviously my mental my my thought process of going to the gym is completely shifted now it's more about mental health um and I still have a Gambit that as soon as you look in the mirror and you and you're satisfied you've lost the battle so what does that draw I've come from where does this constant dry for progression come from it's been instilled into us from such a young age so Dad really taught us the importance of Academia and I wasn't the most gifted I was definitely not as academic or bright as my sister was and you know medical textbook is that thick and I had to read that thick book six times over to memorize it so I could pass the exams I'm not the brightest in the room but I will outwork you and that's the one thing that I really pride myself on and you won't get anywhere in life without hard work even people who are intelligent and gifted in a particular skill set if you don't have hard work look at Kobe Bryant he got told that his fingers were so stubby he couldn't catch basketball so he used to attach weights to his hand waits to weigh his hand down and still grip a basketball and he just used that single practice every day so he was able to cling cling onto a basketball mid-flight in midair far far better than his peers because he was able to work at it Michael Jordan got caught from his bit basketball team as everyone knows and just through hard graft he was able to become what he is so everyone has the potential everyone has the potential for greatness and what I love and I've been victim to this and I because I've experienced this as well myself people don't achieve that potential because they sit on the couch and watch Netflix because that that's the path of least resistance and as as long as you have that mindset as long as you realize that actually 80% of people fail in the first couple of months your potential to realize greatness is huge you SE bolt what did he say he said it took me four it took me four years of work to run 9 seconds and most people quit after three months so we' with yourself there seems this seems to be this drive for Perfection would you say I'm accurate in that assessment yeah it's it's it's probably my biggest downfall as well what's the cost of that to yourself and to potential relationships um so if it probably makes me more emotionally unstable because I deal with criticism worse than someone of a similar elk but I've learned to manage those emotions better through all the obstacles I've been through how' you do with so I'll give you an example if I was in an argument with a partner I would not react which I used to and that used to end up in arguments even public displays which were embarrassing for everyone involved I would detach myself from the situation probably sleep it over and then come up with a reasoned argument the next day with regards to work if I was told that my performance is inept or uh is lacking in certain aspects I used to internalize that and it used to usually uh really affected me negatively and I used to spiral but now I think of it as you think I'm weak let me show you let me prove to you that that is my strongest aspect and I don't know if you watch the Michael Jordan documentary on Netflix but he used to create enemies when there weren't any he used to tell people he used he used to in his mind conjure up a situation where an opposition player said something bad about his mom or said something bad about his capability and he used to think let me just show you up I can do and that was just Conjuring up things which weren't there when it does happen to me I love proving people wrong so that's what that's what I've done can you use that as a positive in I don't know the gym for example yeah well it is a positive if if you if you can Master them emotions if you if you get a negative you know you you're never going to be the biggest guy in the gym you're never going to be able to lift the heaviest weight in the gym compared to your neighbor um but if you keep pushing and striving to prove people wrong that's what makes life living that's that's what makes life worth living again Playing devil's advocate here and I agree to be honest with that that's exactly my fault process on it but there be people also listening to go listening saying you don't need to do that you can just go to the gym or talk to your partner about it in in a different way what would you say to those people I see people in the gym and this really frustrates me they stick on a treadmill and they walk for 3 miles per hour and they stick on a Netflix series on their phone and they call themselves gym goers because that's what they do for 10 minutes and then leave you don't do anything you don't you you again it goes back to to what we uh what we discussed earlier through hardship is what when we grow Muhammad Ali used to only count the Reps that he used to do when it when it hurt when it started hurting the number of crunches he used to do a journalist asked him how many crunches do you do in the gym he was like I only count when it starts hurting you only grow when you put your body through strain so that can be leveled in all aspects of your life not just the gym work as well I mean you gave me a task um to to create a deal sourcing bundle and I've had so much work and I'm also working in the hospital as well doing uh occasional private work work and managing multiple jobs at the same time and also the property it can get overbearing but I still stayed up to 1:00 a.m. last night doing it because that's a priority for me MH you got to put the Graft in talk to me about the property stuff um I didn't realize really how much power property had until I bought my first property um which was last year and at the time I was bouncing between hospitals renting for about renting for about 1,200 to 1,500 per month living with strangers some normal some completely Bonkers but I just didn't have any autonomy on who I chose to live with because I couldn't afford it in central London and then I bought my first place and through the power of negotiation I built 100K equity in this property and I got told that you can release this Equity completely taxfree and buy more property if you wanted to 100K how many years would have taken me to save that sort of money and taxfree and then you can use your property many people there's an argument in terms of buying or renting should you just rent and then spend your money on assets well actually if you buy bu with the m with with the mindset that actually that asset is or that that your primary residence is an asset because you can get a lodger in and or you can use that property as an Airbnb that's a huge in income stream for you it really opened my eyes this first property and then I caught the bug after that um and ever since then I've done uh things that people read about but never action so how do you increase your income you either get a promotion work harder or change jobs change jobs is what I've done um build multiple streams of income which I've also done by opening a couple of businesses and also doing private medical work and all of that is geared towards saving for further properties and then with the intention that every investor wants buy that gold mine prop property which is below Equity release the equity refinance and go again that's the aim um and the the ultimate goal is to build a lifestyle for my friend for my primarily for my family with my mom my dad where they don't have to worry anymore they don't have to worry about their pension they don't have to worry about where the money is going to be coming in from and then hopefully for me in the future and that is the power of property and that's really got me into it so told me obviously we're going to talk about that in a second because we we've spoken about it at length before why the property surgeon I think it was just a play on my background so in terms of I've obviously spent the majority of my career in the NHS and operating and and um using that terminology and involve property just seemed like a natural transition and where about to your sort of investing areas where you looking to purchase so right now I'm looking in Cardiff um so being a capital city uh good transport links it hosts huge numbers of events sporting events and entertainment and it has quite a lot of development in the area and also your entry is still quite low in terms of pricing margin you recently completed it no youve agreed one haven't you so I've greened a property um close to completion now and I actually helped source that for a uh for a consultant um in the NHS who you know I started this property Surge and Venture in social media I didn't know where it was going to take me and then out of the blue one of the one of my old Consultants contacted me and said I have this you know um amount of money and I'd like to invest do you have any ideas and uh I managed to to get him a a property a ston throw away from the principality in Cardiff for 40% about 39 39.5% something like that below uh market value so it had built-in Equity already in it and uh it was tenanted and it was going for about 1,100 a month so for him it was it was um almost a turnkey property in a great location and with built-in Equity it was um it was a good way to start so you're saying that um that you you've previously done a bit of Education before why are the people not take action on the education do you think what what was a difference this time so two things um and analysis paralysis and a lot out there a lot of that out there and path of lease resistance so naris paralysis we all know this term people you know overread they read books attend courses spend thousands on courses watch YouTube videos never take action because they're too scared to pull the trigger but one thing you have to learn is learning comes by pulling the trigger you will not create a first investment which will generate you thousands initially you will make mistakes like anything you Endeavor to choose to pursue there's a again another famous phrase the way you should start your property journey is by saying ready not saying Ready Steady go it's ready go then re aim go again then re aim then go again because you just you learn it's a learning process so analysis paralysis is good it sets you up in a position to take advantage ultimately you've got to pull the trigger at some point and the other one is path release resistance so I've been working multiple jobs to try and save for this property and it's hard it's not easy and you know social media portrays perhaps a different lifestyle but it is not easy and particularly now with mortgage interest rates as they are your profit margins squeezed so thin you really have to be careful with what you purchase otherwise it could be a liability so many people choose to give up because it's not worth it anymore property wasn't what it was the mortgage interest rates are Sky High now they're built in equity everyone's looking for property it's not not what it was your Capital Growth it's saturated at the moment it can't go any further so let's just plow that money into a holiday part least resistance that's what happens so what would you say to people that are looking to start in property that I have got an analysis paralysis they haven't got that much money so the first thing I would do is if you're anything like me and you lack courage originally get a mentor because I don't know if anyone knows this already but Le is my mentor and he's been great for that no don't know no but one thing I would say is probably get a mental I don't work with a lot of people but but yeah but no thanks for that um yeah I'll only work with people that actually take the action right you know that anyway but you don't know who might or may not vet um there's there's a huge difference you you you know that but what what I set you yeah it's our um I've spoken about on the podcast it's it's hard graft I'll do what I say I'm going to do you've SE that you know yourself yeah I'm not one of these people on the socials that will post in a Lamborghini or or pretend that I'm flexing it is what it is yeah um it's hard work I'm not going to sit in my be while the rest of the team pretend to be doing a huge development it's not like that yeah it's also not work when you enjoy the process no so so this is the thing a lot of people set goals and that is the wrong mentality because you set a goal and you don't understand how you're going to get there you don't paint the process so I want to I've I've said this before you know I want to run a marathon at the end of this year I want to have a six-pack by the end of this year you get to the end of the year and you haven't ran two yards and then you beat yourself up about it and you're worse off than before you set set that goal so it's about painting that process and then you talked about why do people not take action to eliminate that path of least resistance and just sit in front of the TV and Netflix to eliminate that and to trick your brain into thinking that you're doing something when you actually are so this is what Atomic habits have taught me great you want to you want to run a marathon all I'm asking you to do is buy some trainers today that's it you don't even have to leave your house you can just go online type in Rebo trainers just buy those the next day I just want you to put those trainers on just wear them around the house mhm nothing next day I want you to go for a walk outside with those trainers the next day I want you to run 5 minutes the next day 15 minutes the next day 30 minutes and then little do you know you're running you've done 20K but You' you're already running you might as well do another 25k so build and and it's Spirals and that's what Atomic habits is is all these effects compound definitely and and what I'm going to do I'm going to touch on what I previously said about working with few people um cuz I don't want to put too many people off but I want to work with people that are serious is I want to liken it to the gym because everyone knows I love the gym do you the gym is I love it everyone goes to the gym for one reason and one reason only is to get in the right State mentally it's people say they want to go cuz they want to get bigger arms abs whatever it is but it's something going on upstairs that's why they go to the gym there something deep rooted that's why they train and you've you adopt habits over a period of time to then convince yourself otherwise and it's the same you become obsessed with that reason you don't have to become obsessed as you are with the Journey of OB Ain in the objective which is freedom through property and if you're not that obsessed that won't work with you yeah that's how you'll become successful in property that's the way I likeing it you're the same with a gym you're the same with property if you're not I've got no time for it yeah it's it's pretty black and white I mean you know our work it's pretty simple black and white and that's one of the best exercises we've ever done I don't feel like I'm going anywhere we reverse engineered it looks how much much you saved within a 4-we period um do you remember what it was yeah um so in 6 months I'd Sav 30k um and that was just purely through working multiple jobs in hard graft but I was still frustrated because I had bought house yeah it goes back to what you're saying about the apps yeah it's true sometimes you have to look at what's going on around you look at the balance look at what you achieved with your partner as well you've gone on fre holidays been on one so far and we've got um Thailand my Tha boxing yeah you booked some sa 30 grand and your relationship so not everything is going to be in Balance all the time no I think that's important for people to realize you want to start this business you want to buy it that's great yeah but don't let everything else hold fall off no it's going to happen properties are still going to be there yeah uh as long as other wheels don't fall off so I think that's important to realize so what's next for you in property so at the moment um my focus on um building the business so um increasing my contacts within the business um building a power team so I've already got people on the ground who are sourcing properties for me who are viewing properties on my behalf um developers Builders um uh deal sources and uh mentors and using that team hopefully I'd like to help others with their Investments um and personally I would love to purchase more properties with the sole purpose of airbnbing them um and then creating another stream of income that way we want to go into the short-term rental um great strategy that's the one obviously I love um I'm very familiar with so I'll wrap this up with a few more questions mate um is there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we wrap it up no no you go for we so what would you say makes you feel accomplished it's a very difficult want to answer because I never really feel accomplished I might as well ask it um I've started to write down objectives at the end of every day to do the next day if I don't achieve those then I feel lost if I do achieve them there's a degree of accomplishment there is it accomplishment or validation validation I don't think I'll ever feel accomplished um I think that's just who I am as a person I will always strive for more and never be satisfied with this does your partner have a problem with that or not oh she suffers from the same element yeah do you sometimes sit there and think to yourself um cuz I know there's going to be one person listening and think I wish I could feel accomplished what was the question what would make you feel accomplished I don't know I wish I knew the answer to that do you would you ever want to feel accomplished would you want to feel that feeling of feeling accomplished no because then I'll stop pushing what are you afraid of what's that fear failure don't want to be labeled one by who just people in general I don't know family friends people I used to work with and also myself I can't be around myself if I don't achieve the things I want to achieve which is why I do beat myself up when I haven't bought a property when I haven't saved this much x amount this month but I'm now learning to turn that into a strength what happens when you sit by yourself these are deep questions um I get fidgety I become a bit Restless I can't sit still I need to do something every minute of every day needs to needs to be productive and when I look back and I have done this where I watched a series or half series on Netflix I feel like I feel worse and I feel feel like I've regressed from the previous day cuz I haven't learned anything what s of emotions were you feeling in just then as you were saying um just a relief saying these things because I don't really ask myself these questions in terms of why I'm never satisfied and why I feel like I've never accomplished you know you can have the Bits of Paper telling you you're you've got a medical degree or you're an orthoptic surgeon or whatever for me it means nothing because that's Yer year although you've accomplished everything for you say that I'm saying for yourself on a piece of paper like you've just mentioned you can earn a very good amount of money uh I'm not going to disclose that much you can go and buy a property what's the one thing that's stopping you is something going around in your head and it's not just you you're not the only one there's going to be a lot of people that can't sit there myself included sometimes um but communication is key A lot of people will sit here with me and go I've got the balance right or I'm trying to get the balance right but it's the communication with yourself you can tell people these things but unless you start telling yourself how you're really feeling and you're in tune with yourself that's the most powerful thing MH going to the gym is great but when you start feeling it within you that's progression yeah so now over the past so got I got lost in 2021 2022 was when I really started to see that shift I can sit there now but not yeah that's that was the shift for me but that comes in time and when you that wolf analogy it will happen yeah it's a time thing is it is a time thing M so given that is there anything you would like to say to your mom your dad your gr as we close this off um just say thank you I guess for all the support over the years and I wouldn't be where I am today without that BR and the last one is how are you doing now doing it doing good yeah brilant Lang thank you very much for coming on mate and uh I look forward to seeing the rest of your journey cheers mate