All right, we got Matt Pollson here, the founder owner of Market Beats, the big dog in the financial media landscape. Uh, thanks for joining us. Happy to be here. Um, I'm pretty excited about this because we're going to dig into a lot of uh about your email deliverability. I know you're you're more of a media company these days with all the stuff you have with your website, podcast, videos, uh I know you're into SMS stuff now, too. Uh but really really want to focuses on on the email side of things. So for those that may not know you, which or market be the brand, can you kind of let us know what inspired you to start this back in the day, uh the early days, and possibly what the first version of this newsletter looked like, as I'm sure it's evolved over time. Yeah. So, one of the common pieces of business advice is to follow your passion. And um I think that's the wrong answer most of the time. Um I think you kind of start somewhere and you follow the business where it takes you and where the opportunity is and that's really been the story with market beats. Um so in 2006 I was a personal finance blogger in the you know web 2.0 like blogs were just becoming a thing kind of phase had a personal finance blog called American consumer news and u was making some decent money from that. And I thought, okay, I'm going to start three or four more of these and um try to sell to the same advertisers on multiple websites, which uh was somewhat effective. But one of those sites was called American Banking and Market News. So I could write about banks and savings accounts, but also the stock market on that site. Um had a lot of success with that site in the way the personal finance sites never really did. um was able to get it into like Google Finance and Yahoo Finance and MSN Money and some of those more vertical search things for um you know stocks and was kind of learned that game figured out how to get a ton of traffic from that and um but it was also very up and down like um like during the great recession um everybody was wondering like is city bank going to go out of business today? So like we'd write about City Bank every day, but then like that calmed down. So then the traffic died down with it and I thought, okay, I got to figure out a way that to like capture some of his attention and that led me to launching an email newsletter in 2009. Um, you know, long time. So the first three years weren't even doing email. No. Nope. I didn't know it, didn't understand it. It was purely web and Google ads. And you know, I grew to like 100 grand a year in revenue doing that. And um, you know, really the email thing wasn't even our main revenue source until about 2015 because there wasn't, you know, back then there were no like ad networks for email, right? There's just not really any ways to monetize other than selling premium subscriptions, which is kind of the main thing that we did um initially and it worked fine. I mean, made a few hundred grand a year. Um, but it wasn't really until we discovered the kind of financial publishing industry in 2015. These are like um all the Agora and Marketwise brands like the Oxford Club. That's really when we figure out a good way to monetize the email list um because they have all these what they are called front-end offers where it's, you know, $99 a year for uh to subscribe to some niche investment newsletter like in gold or oil or tech stocks. Um you know, those were a great fit for our audience. Um it was the content people were interested in, people would buy them. And that's kind of really where we kind of became a million-dollar business is kind of promoting those types of things. You know, we kind of stayed a low singledigit million-doll year company until co and um kind of when the you know, everybody had free money from the government. GameStop, AMC kind of stuff was blowing up in 21. That's really when we kind of leaped from being a seven figure year company to being an eight figure year company. Uh we were super well positioned for that. Um, we had some search rankings for things like GameStop short interest, AMC short interest, kind of all the keywords people were looking for. So, there were days when we had like a million dollars or not a million dollars, um, but a million page views um, on the website, which is, you know, today we're GameStop thing happened, how many a million visitors, how many of those subs did you weren't able to convert to subscribers? Um, I don't actually know. I'd have to go back and look. Um but our subscriber count went up quite a bit and then it was kind of after that 22 23 when we really figured out the um paid acquisition channel. So we went from spending maybe 100 grand a month to a million a month in um advertising to grow our email list and then our list went from maybe 1 to two million to more like four or five million and today we're at 5.4 million. Yeah. I was gonna ask you here how big it was. Last time we checked it was like 4.5 million. And so you got another million. Yeah, we period of time. I mean, we Yeah, we spend a million dollars a month um on Adwords and Bing and Facebook and um co-edge and buying like newsletter placements and any way that seems viable to go by email signups, we will. And um then we, you know, track the performance. Are these you know, is this cohort of people from after.com or whatever the channel is like each month or are they worth a little bit more to us? and then we track that and we can tell pretty easily whether or not a source is good or it's not worth messing with. Cool. So, just to go back on the email side when you guys first started, you know, a few years later, what how did you start your email as far as what software were you using and how has that evolved over time? Because I'm sure you're not, you know, if you started with who knows what what was around back then, but say you're on Mailchimp or something at some point in time. You're not selling four and a half million subscribers on Mailchimp. I'm sure of that. So you got uh Yeah. So one thing about me is I love to automate as much as possible. I'm kind of lazy. So if I can't automate something, I will. So when I started the newsletter, like I don't want to write a newsletter every day. Like that's that's not me. I'm not doing that. But we had a bunch of data. Um and one of the pieces of data that we had that people seem to like were um like um ratings from stock analysts for different stocks. So, um, you know, you there are all these people that work for Goldman Sachs and Bank of America and Wells Fargo that like write these research reports for institutional investors and then they give a stock like I think the price is going to be this year from now and I rate it a buy. So, we aggregated all that information and put it in a daily newsletter and that was kind of our initial newsletter. Um, back then it was called like um ABMN daily ratings and now it's like Mark B daily ratings, right? Uh but we yeah never used Mailchimp, never used AWeber or you know any any of the tools. It was always custom code, custom CRM because like back then I didn't know how to like load an like I could create the content like an automated way but like I didn't know how to like load it into a CRM and send it out. So it's always Who did who did all the coding for you? Uh I did. That's what I was going to say because it was interesting to find out that you were actually a writer at first. Mhm. Um and then you know always see you kind of like coding and talking about all this stuff and I've seen you working on your on Twitter showing little code base whatever you're working on. So um I thought you're always a programmer person develop you know market as a as a tech tool for for finance you know show all the ratings and and different things like that. Um it's interesting that you were actually a writer and then I guess taught yourself how to code. Yeah, a little bit of both. Um, kind of the skills that like Mark needed like somebody needed to know how to write, somebody needed to know how to write code and then somebody needed to be a dirty marketer that could figure out all the strategies that nobody else was kind of figuring out yet. Swiss Army knife. Yes. Um, I mean now we have like a team of five developers. We have another one starting next week and you know you have a very data heavy website like market beat. It is a lot of work to maintain that and like you know our prices have to be like real our stock prices have to be real time up to the second. So like all that infrastructure takes you know money and people to do how how did you go from your you know the first thousand or so subscribers then got to 100,000 and then a million. And I know you kind of touched base about all the media that you've been spending, but how did you originally start acquiring your your subscribers to the list? Yeah. Traffic. The first five years it was mostly organic and like we had traffic from Google News and Google Finance and those kinds of places. Um so people would click through to read an article and there'd be a like a light box popup that said like so say the article was about um City Bank stock. Then the popup would say City Bank buy, hold, or sell or like get City Bank news. So then the popup would be specific to the article they were reading. And then it would say like, "Enter your email address below if you want more news about City Bank delivered to your inbox automatically." And then um you type in your email and click on a button to sign up. And that worked really well for a long time. That probably got us our first half a million subscribers before we ever even looked at paid. That's awesome. Yeah. Thousand organic subscribers. People died for that. Did you test your your AI AB split test on your popup that you you showed on on X? Uh yeah. I mean, back then there was no AI, but like constantly testing, you know, different button copy, colors, titles, um you name it. Tried it for a long time. And u we still do that that today. like a these days a lot of um our email signups come from this landing page that we have and I can post a link to it somewhere but um very simple like but you know every day there's a different test going on for button text or you know copy and all that stuff really matters. uh for those people who are growing your list um and you know the bonds you have are you know at the at the top tier where's your when did you go from if you ever were on maybe shared IP infrastructure versus dedicated IP infrastructure and like when did you make that decision or were you always dedicated in the beginning? So, initially we were on AWS um with their emo stuff SCES. Um we found like it worked but the support wasn't very good. Um and then like you had to pay for a support plan to like get anybody to respond your email and then even when you did that it just wasn't wasn't great. So we moved from there to Send Grid pretty early on probably 2010 or so and have been with Sen Grid pretty much ever since and just had fantastic results with them. like it's not a CRM where like it's going to maintain your list and and do all the stuff that ConvertKit or Behive would do. It's not that. But if you want somebody to like deliver your emails like like through an API call is fantastic. So we've been with them for 15 years, been probably with Twilio for 5 years and um we just think great company um great people over there been very happy with them. Great. And and was there any uh hiccups or or issues when like when Twilio purchased Sang Grid on the No, I mean they're not they're not truly integrated yet today. I mean they finally have like single sign on but like we have a Sang Grid person and then we got Twio person and they just kind of stick to their own universes but Got it. And when you when you first started on Sang Grid were you guys doing dedicated IPs? Um I think so. I think we only had one. Now we have like seven. Every year or so we add one or two just because our person at Sangood tells us I should probably add another one. Oh, so you're able to send that much volume with just seven dedicated IPs. Yeah, it's how much volume you sending daily? Oh, I don't know if we want to talk about that on podcast. Um it's uh it's a lot. um seven I mean or you know 5 million subscribers everybody gets at least one email a day so right and and we know you like to send more than one a day maybe uh I guess I so at what point did uh email deliverability become a a serious focus of the newsletter or did you have were there any big issues that came out that was like oh now it's time to get an expert or I believe you say you got someone over Send grid that helps you out as well. Yeah, we pay for um a consultant at Send Grid to keep an eye on our stuff and you know if there's an issue they'll file a mitigation request on our behalf and um what we find is that like the send grid people filing a mitigation request with Yahoo or Hotmail or whoever like gets a lot gets listened to in ways that like one from me would not. Um so that's kind of it alone. Um it's really been in the last couple years where deliverability has been more of a challenge. um you know, kind of the new Yahoo goal kind of rules of like that's made things a little bit harder for people. Um but then like our volume has gone way up too of like we're spending a lot more on subscribers and um it's really hard to maintain good deliverability when you're buying a ton of co regge. Um so that's been a challenge for us and what we've learned is that you've kind of have to treat the different ESPs a little bit differently. Like Microsoft historically has a very strict spam filter. So like we send different types of mail to Microsoft users versus a Gmail user for example. Are you are you getting so granular on on sending that you know which IPs might be a little healthier for you and and you're more engaged people are going out on some and the other ones may be being retraed on other IPs because of you know how engaged you are. Um we do have a separate IP pool for Microsoft. Um, we had issues with Microsoft a little over a year ago and um, they it it decided they liked some of our IPs and and not the others. So, we just kind of limited our mail to the IPs that they liked and um, that's worked out well for us. And then they just change our sender requirements to to go with Gmail and Yahoo. I don't know why they wait so long for that. Yeah. What uh what's your I guess what would you consider your list turn? like what's your your unsubscribe rate on average? And I mean you have a now it's five and a half million. I can't even imagine how many new subscribers you kind of need to feed the beast to just keep not even grow just just to keep at a certain level. I mean you got to be feeding in tons of uh you know signing up tons of subscribers. You're obviously spending the money too. But that still seems like you need a lot to grow. Yeah. You know it's about 5% a month at unsubscribe. So, we need 250,000 new emails a month to kind of be at break even. Um, which obviously that's a challenge. Um, but you know, courage leads are two three bucks. So, you can get a lot of those and kind of get back to where you were. Um, the the other challenge we have is um, you know, with 5 million subscribers like you end up having a lot of inactive. So finding ways to try to reactivate some of those people over time is um and doing it at scale has been a challenge. One thing that we're trying now is um there's a platform called inbox mailers. Maybe some of your subscribers are with um but they can track may um you know they have this network of of different email list and you can know when somebody's opening an email from another list. So then they'll do an API call and they say okay you know this person hasn't opened in a year from us but they have just opened some other list and we can send them an email and see if they open it and kind of mark them as re-engaged. So testing different stuff like that to try to re-engage people in maybe a little bit smarter way. Has that been has that been working so far? Um it's pretty new to us. I mean in the last couple weeks so it's I couldn't tell if it's working yet. I I know you track your your cohorts down, you know, really tightly. Do you know on average just overall like what the average length of engagement of a subscriber is? Like how long have will they stay on your list? Sorry, one more time. Oh, um yeah, I mean we have people on a list since 2009. Um Right. So some people stay a long time, some people like don't like getting three emails a day and then unsubscribe the next day. Um that's for us that's like not really the most important thing that we look at like we really look more at the financial metrics like revenue numbers. Um say like we really look at cohorts. So um say you know after offers.com um we buy leads from them have for years you know over 10 years say okay last month we gave them this amount of money for this number of leads those leads have made us this amount of money like are we seeing the ROI benchmarks we're looking for is is kind of how we look at things. Are you looking at it uh just in that shorter time period and then after a while you just obviously it's going to keep on recurring revenue people that stay on but those co I mean I can't imagine looking at cohorts every month for every source. Uh yeah uh it is all automated so like I can go back for for years and get that data. Um but we try to break even by month three um typically and then have it grow from there. But different acquisition channels have different characteristics like when you buy leads from Adwords or Facebook like they tend not they're more expensive so they don't break even as quickly but they um there's higher user intent so they stick around for a while and then the ROI tends to be about the same as co-reg or anything else. Uh you mentioned inbox mailer. Are there any other inbox placement or or sender reputation tools you're using to help monitor? I think a lot of that stuff is kind of snake oil like the stuff that like will like fake engagement in ESPs like I don't really believe in those things. Do you do any like um seed tools to see if things are in boxing? Uh yeah, we use inbox monster um for that. Um, Sen gave it to us with their, I don't know, deliverability services. So, we use that. Um, there's a tool called Postmaster Plus. Um, it's from the Optipub guys, but it it shows kind of your reputation and block list and in kind of a really easy to see way. And then they send you alerts every day like show you, you know, your Gmail domain reputation and your SNDS reputation and those kinds of things. And it's kind of just nice to have an easy way to keep an eye on that. So really like that tool um as well. Cool. Um do you do anything uh as far as to help with the engagement uh segment wise that you can share that help people deliverability wise um versus just obviously always sending to their list the same the same people every time. Yeah. Um, you know, we kind of, you know, you talk about doing a base segment of, you know, new subscribers, Xday clickers, X day openers, and, you know, we certainly do something like that, but we also kind of have what we call like our really high or recent kind of segment where um, every morning at um, 6 a.m. we'll send an extra email to people that have opened in the last three days or clicked in the last six days. And then those emails get 50 60% open rates. And I think it kind of raises our average a little bit and really helps with um deliverability. Yeah, we we do that as well as we send uh ours is a little different. We're sending uh most of our stuff we send at night. Uh our main list uh along with all the new subscribers uh just cuz we find that there's less complaints and unsubscribes in the evening from people. Um, and then in the morning we're sending to the most engaged people, which is usually anyone who's open the last, we do I mean ours is super tight. Uh, one day and then anyways clicked the last seven days is our kind of morning send, but it's more of just a regular amm style newsletter. Um, not as niche and and aggressive as you guys are on the monetization side. We're really just add arbitrage people, not not going straight to CPA offers and things like that. Um, what else do we got here? Uh, how frequently are you cleaning your data as far as like revalidating old old subscribers? See if anything's falling off come spam traps or anything like that or are you using a specific email validation service? Yeah. So, we use Send Grid's um validation service um before adding new people to the list and then periodically, you know, every few months maybe we'll um go I mean it's kind of expensive to go and like revalidate 5 million emails. Yes. Okay. So, we we'll take like maybe the most recent million that like based off last view date and u we validate them every few months. Uh we we typically only do it if we're starting to see issues. Um otherwise like you know we get API notifications if somebody's you know there's a spam report or a bounce or anything like that. So we can scrub people automatically that way and then you know if you don't open an email from us and 30 days like you're probably not going to get much mail from us. So it's people just kind of fall off automatically too. Got it. And if you can kind of explain your So you you market itself the brand actually has multiple lists. I don't know if people understand that, but you're sending different uh you know branded lists under the market beat uh brand. Um things like you know you talked about market beat daily was your daily uh ratings. Um and then you have like the early bird insider trades. Um is there a reason why you have the different ones? Um you know is everyone subscribed to all of them? Uh and do they fall off if they don't subscribe to just specific ones? So, in the financial investment space, um, people tend to be subscribed to a lot of different newsletters for different types of content and different opinions. And, you know, my theory is like I'd rather be, you know, I could be one of those or I could be five of those, right? So, um, I'd rather be five of them and have more more of that mind share in their inbox than than not. Um, so each kind of newsletter has its own different flavor. Some people trade different ways. They like different strategies. So we kind of have different newsletters that cater to different interests. So there are people that are subscribed to basically all of them and then there are people just subscribed to one of them and it works pretty well. Um and and you've never had any issues sending all in the same domain. Um no, not really. Um we kind we have our kind of list unsubscribe wired up correctly now. And then like if people like there's a big mailing preferences page where people can pick and choose what they want, what they don't want. And um it hasn't really been an issue. I think it could start to become an issue now that the like Gmail has that list unsubscribe kind of reporting whether or not they think you're compliant. It turns out it's it's by domain, not by from address. So, um, say somebody unsubscribes from the early bird, like Gmail would want us to unsubscribe them from every every list, not just that one, right? So, you know, that tells me like maybe we should start looking at more than one sending domain. Very interesting. Um, let's see here. What do I got? What do you think are the most common mistakes newsletters make that can hurt their deliverability? Not that you've ever made them. Yeah. I mean, buying a bunch of cheap leads from places that are kind of sketchy. Um, like in the finance space, maybe two years ago now, there was a company that I won't say the name, but we're selling really cheap leads for like a $150 and it was very unclear where they were coming from. And um but they were also like tended to be buyers or people didn't ask too many questions. Um eventually it came out that maybe these leads were stolen from a big public company. Um so and then like yeah there's a it was a whole thing in our industry but um then like basically what happened was like the funnel of leads got shut off but then like the company you know just still wanted the money, right? So then they just started sending garbage leads and it took companies that were giving them money a while to figure that out, right? Um so I when you know we're buying leads from somebody or email signups like I really want to know what they're doing like um and like if I can't can't see front front end to back end of like what's happening like that and I'm I'm probably not a buyer. Yeah, definely got be careful data you're using. I know you're you're you have the same mentality I do as far as a single opt-in uh strategy. Um can you kind of dive in on on on your guys strategy as far as when you get a lead, what's the um activation process or or your window of trying to onboard that person before you might just put them dormant, unsubscribe them, delete them, whatever that that is. Um yeah, so somebody signs up for a list, they'll get a confirmation email, actually a series of them um for I think it's 21 days. Um so as long as you click on any link or click on a confirmation email within 21 days or I think even open a certain number of emails, like you're good to go. But like if there are no signs of life within the first 21 days and by then we've sent you at least 50 emails and like you haven't opened any of them then we'll just unsubscribe people because we don't think it's a I mean how do you not open one of 50 emails? Right. Right. So we'll just unsubscribe people like hard at that point and consider them not a real email address. Cool. are you are you guys doing uh without now that you have all your different channels um how are you leveraging your email to push people to SMS to push people to uh your podcast or or or the videos on YouTube your YouTube channel um how's that going yeah um so we think of ourselves as you know we used to be like an email kind of only company and I think in today's world you really have to be more of a a multi-channel kind of media company if you're going to survive cuz you know things kind of coming in out of favor you know deliverability gets harder then like you're just going to just have your revenue go down or you going to have like a backup plan. Um so for us like we just want to be on as as many owned media channels as we can. So email, SMS, website, browser notifications um and YouTube. YouTube is not really an owned media channel but it's it's pretty close. Um, so we try to be as many places as we can be that make sense. Like we've tried direct mail unsuccessfully. Anything that seems plausible, we'll try and um we try to get people to bounce from one channel to the next to the next because it just creates more communication opportunities. So So you sign up for the email list, the next page you're going to get, um, an optin for SMS. And we make a boatload of money from SMS. So like that we're pushing that really hard. And then like we'll send emails out to invite people to opt into the SMS stuff as well. What's your opt what's your optin rate from email to to SMS on initial? So our active SMS list is about a quarter million right now. So it's only about 5%. But um like this month SMS is 40% of our revenue. So it just the monetization is so much more effective on SMS than email that we're going to keep pushing it pretty hard. And when you're doing SMS, are you pushing the same uh type of offers that you're doing on email or are they more specific to something different like uh investor relations type type campaigns or uh more lead genen versus maybe a CPA? Um it's largely the same kind of stuff. Um if something's going to work on email, it's going to work on SMS. So, um, we do find lead genen to be quite effective on SMS and, um, the IR guys love SMS, so there's a lot of that that happens, too. Yeah. People pay us five grand for one text to the list. So, that's kind of nice. Have you do you do you you guys have a consultant over there on the SMS side from Send Grid as well, from Twilio that helps you out because I know that all the different carriers can also be a little bit of a bumpy road. Yeah, we have an account manager. We don't really have a deliverability consultant on the SMS side. It's been much le I mean like there's some compliance stuff you have to do especially TCPA related but then like the carriers have their own compliance stuff and you do get audited like every year to make sure like does your help message say what it's supposed to say like you type start you sign up you press stop you unsubscribe and you know as long as you're checking the boxes like you typically you're going to be fine. Cool. and your uh any traffic into your your new product you release the the earnings call. Um, oh the, um, yeah, so now you can listen to like live earnings calls on the market website. Uh, we that's through a partnership with a company called Quarter. Uh, we've done some promotion of it. Um, but what we find is like market beat is almost like two different businesses. Like there is the market website and premium subscription side of things and people that actually use the tools and then like the email SMS side, the ad side is really like kind of a different group of people that like read the content and email and click on ads and buy stuff. It tends to be very very distinct. Um, and obviously the the ad side is a way bigger business, but right. So there's Yeah, like there's a bunch of businesses on like the product subscription side like Tip Ranks and Simply Wall Street that like never got into the the media side and um, you know, they may have similar reach as us, but like they haven't been able to monetize because they haven't haven't bitten the ads apple and really gone down that route, right? you see any big changes or or things coming in the news new news space or newsletter space, email space in the next year or so? Oh, um I mean it does seem like a lot of the the me too people have kind of washed out which is good. Like how many AI newsletters do we need, right? So I'm I'm glad that's happened. like I would I would prefer the space like not to be a gold rush mentality because then you just get a bunch of lowquality you know lots of me too kind of stuff. So I'm glad that appears to have kind come to an end. Um it is nice to see the tools getting better both beehive convert kit like you know get get better every month. Um that's good. Um I think uh deliverability is going to get a lot harder which will make like buying co-edge type leads much more difficult. Um I think there will be a shift towards quality of of sign up versus quantity. Like yeah having 5 million subscribers is great but maybe having 1 million really good subscribers is better. So like our our ad spend shift is going to kind of move away from co-edge and lead share type stuff more towards like um AdWords and Facebook ads where somebody's actually coming to our website typing in their email and there just higher intent there. Um so there'll probably be more that direction. Yes, I think it's going to I think they're going to tighten up even more on the security side. Obviously they you know now that Microsoft jumped on board, Yahoo Gmail did it last year. I think I mentioned this to you before that I think that the the ver verify certificate marks is another layer that they can do to to kind of uh secure that the males that are coming are from a a legit brand. um very, you know, pretty similar to now with uh even with SMS, you know, when they made their changes to TCPA or whatever it was, um they required more uh official uh things registered to to allow you to send send SMS from them. Um yeah, get getting a short code is pretty hard these days. Yeah, it's pain in the ass. We did a little bit of SMS, but when all that stuff happened, we kind of uh stopped going that route, unfortunately. Um, but you know, uh, I think email is going to get it's it's going to get weeded out in the next couple years. I think it's I think all these fly by night people, it's going to be too tough for them as far as deliverability and and the more layers of um, you know, setting up that you're actually an official business. People can contact you, locate you. Um, you know, if not, you're not going to be all male. So, um, let's see. Are you Well, I guess I can bring up this issue. Uh, obviously, uh, people that that follow me know I've been big on this whole Yahoo, uh, block that's been going on or their algorithm shake up. Um, I mean, it's hit everyone that I know uh, for the most part. you know, some people maybe not as much. Some people know, but you know, majority of people, it didn't matter really what niche you were in, what um if you're on shared IPs, uh dedicated IPs, didn't really matter. Um you were still seeing a lot of either low low deliverability or or low open rates uh because you're basically just throwing in the spam box. Um I know I chatted with you a little bit about it over the last couple weeks. How's that going for you guys now? Um yeah, so a bunch of people in the financial media publishing industry um you know got blocked b effectively by Yahoo. A bunch of deferrals, bunch of blocks. Um so what we did is we cut our volume back probably 90% to Yahoo and um um the other thing is that we did was we told all of our co-edge providers like no more Yahoo addresses because like it's not going to work. Um so we're kind of coming back from it now. Um, but hearing from a lot of other people, they have not been able to kind of get it unblocked. But, um, I I think that I think this stuff's going to blow over eventually. I'm not Yeah, they're they're they're like, it's it happens every couple years. The big purge and uh, you know, they're just trying to weed out those those shady affiliates and shady bulk mailers that are, you know, just flooding their their inbox. Uh so you know I mean for us it's been a good opportunity to like say okay of all the leads that we have coming in like where's kind of the lowest quality and like maybe places we should just stop buying especially for Yahoo addresses and um really kind of encouraged us to move into quality direction maybe a little bit quicker than we would otherwise. So, are you are you guys um filtering out any any outside of I know you're not getting co- red or or whatever sign up from some say Yahoo, but are you filtering out any other GI domains uh general interest domains uh for deliverability issues or you just take everything validated send and when you say general interest domains what do you mean by that? Um, you know, it could be business domains. Uh, Chris atsie.com or mattpson.com or, you know, just do I mean, we've always had pretty good luck with the what we call the other bucket of domains that are not like any, you know, Gmail or Yahoo, um, you know, any of the big ones. Um, so we haven't had to do anything special with those um at all. Cool. All right. Well, I think uh we went over a bunch of good stuff. Now I got a a very important question here. What is your favorite movie? Oh, favorite movie. Uh, probably Momento. That's a good one. Okay. With a I don't know. I mean, it's a 20-y old movie at this point, but right guy effectively like he's trying to figure out who murdered his wife and it turns out it was him, right? Yeah. That kind of usual one of my top five his usual suspects. Okay. There's kind of that, you know, at the end like total curveball that you didn't think was happening. Um, and what computer game did you play back in the day? Okay. So, the one that like defined my childhood was this MMO RPG that is like pre-W World of Warcraft called Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds. Um, it's it still exists. I think the player base is probably like 300 people now. Um, yeah, it's not high. Is Is it in the cloud? Uh, I mean there is a server and you connect to it. Um, but played a lot of Age of Empires growing up. Played World of Warcraft in college. um played a lot of the Civilization games, still do. Um I play Hearthstone, um collectible card game with Warcraft stuff. Um I've played that for the last 10 years. Play it basically every day. So very big video gamer here. I think I'm a little bit older than you. So when I started off, the big game that got me hooked was King's Quest. Oh, sure. Um that was like the big one. My brother got me into that one. Uh, and then I was all into the Civ games and all those growing up. Um, and then got into when they all went online, I got hooked on Star Wars Galaxy for a while. Oh, sure. Being a Jedi Knight. Mhm. Um, and then as far as card games, we used to play Magic the Gathering a lot. So, I never got into in-person magic. Like, it was pretty big in college, but never was quite my thing. Yeah. My brother got me into it. I have like I'm like I got I got two brothers. My older brother um who's more of the intellect and he's all into the you know RPGs and uh he he do all like in real life role playing games and stuff. Uh what's the one he was playing a lot in college vampires or something? Um, not sure what that one was, but and then you had my other brother who's like a jock and then I was kind of in between be like sports over here my brother and then I'd be over here doing the the other stuff more fantasy sci-fi computers. So kind of a mix of of the two sides. Um, well I think that's pretty good. Do you have any else? Anything else you'd like to add or ask me? Yeah, I don't know. If you want to hear my random stuff, you can follow. I do a quarterly like personal newsletter that's like totally separate from marketabbe mattson.com if anybody wants to check that out. And very active on Twitter um Matt Pson SD. Um yeah, sounds like and it sounds like we're going to see each other in person next week at the the newsletter conference in New York. So that'll be that'll be fun. Hello. He made the announcement. Yeah, we'll be there. Have you been letting other anyone else you know that's going outside the Yeah, we we hear a few financial publishing people going. So, we'll connect with everyone there. Cool. All right. Well, I appreciate your time. Look forward to seeing you next week and uh have a great end of the weekend. Sounds good. Great to see you, Chris. All right, Matt. Take care. Bye. Bye.