In 2009, Chris Allen won American Idol. He beat Adam Lambert, got the record deal, the platinum single, the whole thing. And then, he did something almost nobody does. He walked away. He walked away from the machine, started his own label, and then spent the next 15 years building something much more interesting than any of it. I'm Chris Vitrano, and this is The Gist. >> >> Hello and welcome to The Gist. I'm your host Chris Vitrano, here to break down all the things in pop culture and interviewing the people that make it pop. On today's show, I'm sitting down with Chris Allen. Chris, who won American Idol in 2009, season 8, the one everyone remembers. And he did it in what might be the most understated way anyone has ever won a national competition. No big theatrical moment, no viral meltdown. He just played his guitar, connected with people, and won. Since then, he's built an independent music career entirely on his own terms. He started his own label, made music when he had something to say, and just last year released what a lot of people are calling his best work yet. Chris, welcome to The Gist. It's genuinely so good to have you on the show today. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. >> So, I know you're in Nashville now, and I'm I'm recording live from East Nashville with right alongside you here. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah, yeah, we're we're based here, too. >> Very cool. >> When did that happen for you, and and how has Nashville kind of changed the way that you make music if at all. >> I'm We moved here I guess almost 12 years ago. I had come here I had been here like periodically for shows and things like that beforehand. But never felt the like desire or push to move here. And then I gotten hooked up with this producer named Charlie Peacock >> Mhm. >> who I worked with here in Nashville when I was living in Arkansas at the time. So I was driving up a bunch. And honestly it was his idea. He was like, "You should just move up here." And it made it like it was a quick decision. It kind of it made a lot of sense with our life at the moment. We had just had our first kid he and traveling from Little Rock to go do shows and things like that was not always the easiest. So traveling from Nashville so I mean it's pretty centrally located on this side of the country. >> Mhm. >> And so it it made it so much easier for that and just like being around other musicians and other writers. It just made a ton of sense. And we've we've loved it. We love where we love where we live and we love our neighborhood and schools and all that stuff. It's been great. >> Yeah. And Nashville's changed a lot even since you've been here. It's a a completely different place than you than than when you joined us. >> Yeah, it's crazy how how different it is. Even like my neighborhood and I don't we don't we don't go very far out of our little bubble over here. We're on we're on the west side. >> Mhm. >> And uh And so anytime that I venture out I'm like, "Gosh, the city has gotten so huge." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy and the traffic's horrible now and used to not be that bad. >> the traffic I didn't even know the traffic was bad until the other day I dropped off our neighbors at the airport and I was like, "This is awful. I never have to drive in it. And it took me forever to get there and forever to get back and I was it was like a whole 2-hour excursion. >> Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's wild, but it's it's a fun place to be. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, obviously, you know, I know everyone kind of like knows the story. You won American Idol back in 2009. It was pretty like controversial season. It's kind of the one everyone always talks about and you know, you and Adam and everyone always kind of wanted to pit you guys against each other and you know, I as I said in the intro, you know, you you didn't have this big theatrical moment and Idol had kind of come to know like you really just connected with people and your guitar and that's what fans came to love and and know about you and but I think that, you know, for today cuz I think everyone's talked about American Idol and everyone's talked to you about that and you know, you went on and you know, obviously, we all know and love the the first single and still I still play it all the time and it's awesome. >> Yeah. My my husband was asking me. He said something about like yeah, he's like you should ask him about the Tim McGraw song cuz I think that Tim McGraw copied him and and his version's better. >> That I will I will have to like I'm not going to say a name, but I was doing an interview not long after I uh that that that single was going to come out. And the first question that she asked was like, "So, why did you choose to cover a Tim McGraw song for your first single?" And I was like, "I didn't. You need to listen maybe to the song." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was that wasn't a great that wasn't they didn't do a lot of that. >> She's actually amazing and we are we are close. So, it it was it was fine, but it was funny in the moment for sure. >> Yeah. No, but I you know, everyone kind of knows that story. I think I I would love to dive in a little bit more about like kind of since because like I know like Drive Records dissolved and you know, a lot of people would look at, you know, this opportunity of like what would independent music be as kind of like a plan B. And you with Dog Bear Records, your your label, like I'm wondering like at what point did you not look at that as a plan B and really start like taking control of your career the way that you have? >> Yeah, so that first record, you know, you sign this record deal and it's like it's like a five album I mean, there's a there's a lot to say about this is a long answer, so I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but that first thing that you sign is like a five album, you know, contract. And so we did the first one. And then Jive like disintegrated. And we knew some of us that were on there were going to get kind of get moved around or dropped. And so they I they moved me over to RCA. I think because of probably one person in particular. I um I do think that I had someone that was really looking out for me over there named Joe Riccatelli who's just like one of the greatest people that I've met in this business. You know, I've I've met some interesting people. Oh, yeah, sure. And some some really great and some fine and some not so great. He was like one of the like top tier people that I've met in the music business part of things. And I think he really like I think he kind of like like saw a vision for it and also believe she just believed in me, I think. Yeah. And I think still does. So, he took me over to RCA and then I made a record there, but that one was so interesting because right when I put out that second album, my management contract was ending. >> Hm. >> And then also my and also the label was getting a new president. >> Mhm. >> And so it was they weren't doing anything for me. It was very interesting. And so I was like So we were having to do everything on on our own and even in that time for that second album. And so I learned a lot. Like I if I'm if I'm going to do this there are certain things that I have to do on my own. And not not by myself, but like with the help of the people around me and the the people that care about me. I I surrounded myself with people that I really loved and cared about. And they fought for me and did things for me. Did things for me that that I didn't even know to do. So after that I was like I I think I just learned a lot and the idea of trying to find another label felt weird and maybe like it didn't make sense and I I felt like with the labels I was always having to prove that the things that I was giving them was good enough. >> Mhm. >> And I was just just got exhausting. And so I was willing to like take that chance on that third album and just kind of do it my own. And it was weird. I mean we learned we learned a lot through that too. It's like we learned we learned so much. Like the first of all that if you're fronting all the all of the money for everything, it's you start to go like should we spend this? Whereas like the labels are collectively spending way too much money, especially at that time. >> Yeah. Especially with the American Idol kind of machine behind it too. Yeah. The the >> I think I still have like a like a book that's as thick of the expenses for the first album. >> Wow. >> And it was wild. I remember cuz I didn't look at it during I didn't know what was happening while it was happening. >> >> And then we got like some sort of expense book afterwards and I was like I have to hang on to this cuz this is absolutely insane the amount of money that you guys are spending just just to like make music. >> Yeah. I mean it's also probably really good that like now you have a label and you're doing this independently like you have that insight of like this is what that took and I think like not a lot of like there's so many people that get thrown into those types of machines and they never think about the what's in that book and they never think about how much it is actually costing. And like at least you have the insight to know because that's probably helping you as you're kind of navigating music now. >> For sure. I mean it I think we probably went too far into the like into the let's not spend money like we can just gorilla style this and on that first album. And so we learned like okay with the next one we need to do this and we just like sure it's just it's all it's always learning and and the times are changing and so you're like trying to spend money on different things or or trying not to spend money because of social media cuz social media maybe was different in 2014 than it is in 2026, you know? >> Yeah. >> So yeah, it's just I feel like it's always just trying to learn and figure out what's best for the project and what's going on right now and financial situations whatever, you know? >> Yeah. And you know, you you put out letting you in in 2016 and then you you took a a gap. There's a big gap of time before you just released pole vaulter and you know, what what I know that there's been like talk of like you kind of were working on that album over this time and you know, people are saying that this is one of your best pieces of work that you've put out. But what was really going on kind of like in that gap? Like, was there part of it was it part of this as you're talking about like everything kind of was changing, it was harder to put out the music, was like Tik Tok and socials started coming up. I know obviously COVID happened during that time. Like, take me a little bit into that gap year or those gap years. >> Yeah, yeah. It's I would say years. I think we spent a lot of time I said I did play a lot of shows around that time, but I think there was a lot going on at different times. I think COVID happened and that was very weird. >> Mhm. >> I had started probably writing for whatever Pole Vault was going to be, which I didn't know what it was going to be at that moment. I had started writing before COVID happened and then COVID happened and it was like, what am I doing? And then everything kind of got like really pushed back and and probably more pushed back than I wanted it to. And I'll I'll blame myself for that, but I also think that I had well family-wise there's a lot going on, too, like in a good way. Um we have three kids and my wife runs a company and I think for so long that while I'm you know, I spent so long on the road and you know, she would have to do a lot like taking care of the kids and so she has dreams and aspirations herself and this thing that she started is kind of blown up and so I think that some I'm not saying that she's like asking me to take a step back, but I've but there are more things that I have to do and our family and and in a way I really enjoy that. Like, I enjoyed I enjoy doing dad stuff. Like, I I love it. >> I know um that you mentioned that there was like during COVID you started writing and you started writing stuff about like the stuff you haven't said yet. And at that point you had put out records and you know, you had you had shared a lot. I mean, you shared your life on one of the biggest programs in the world and you know, what what was it about COVID that you and I obviously like, you know, I know about the crash and and 2013. Like, you know, what was it in COVID that you were feeling like you were able to express and and go there kind of for the first time and and was it COVID that really brought that out? >> I don't know if it was COVID specifically. I think that time and like the ability to slow down probably brought some things out. And made made some things like more evident in my own life. I think that yeah, just like the quiet of it like really really made me think a lot in in that way and I and I again, I think also just learning learning that like what a like the stuff that like I really look up to in other artists is them being genuine and real. And not that I wasn't doing those things before, I think I was, but I think that it's just growing in that and trying to get better at that and and realizing that that is a that's a good thing to do those things instead of like guarding myself, which I can I can do that pretty easily. >> Yeah. >> But I think giving those giving that side of myself to the songs and to the writing and not being afraid to say things, not wondering if it's going to like connect with other people because if cuz I think I've just learned that if it connects with me then it is probably connecting with other people. >> Yeah, I mean, um you know, that's that's interesting you that you you mentioned like not feeling afraid to kind of just be real and share and put the those kind of themes on the album. And I know you also mentioned that there's some addiction content on the album. But you also mentioned that it's kind of like masked in in the songs. Like, is that something that you intentionally are doing because you don't feel like you can share your full story with with your fans, or is there something that like maybe you want to continue to explore, or maybe that's future music? >> I don't know yet. I mean, I think that certain things I'd like to keep in whatever circle I'm in, and then I I don't know. I don't know yet. I have no idea. It's a good question, though. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know where that's going to take me. >> What the in terms of how you're going to kind of reveal more of that story through your art or music? >> Yeah, I don't know. I mean, so even right now, like I've got songs that are not out yet that I'm like that probably speak to some of those things, but I it's not like I'm not saying them specifically. But, they are I think the songs feel very genuine and real, and especially about you know, whatever I've gone through in my life or in the past 10 years or however long. I But, I I don't think it's like it's it's it's not like spelling everything out. And I don't know if I ever have to do that with with, you know, I I I just wouldn't want the the songs to be Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. >> Are you are you worried about it be being dark? >> That I'm not so worried about it being dark. I'm I just don't know if I I like being genuine. I I just don't know if I what I specifically have, you know, maybe alluded to is like for everyone to hear, you know? >> For public consumption. >> Yeah, maybe not. I think I think some people would probably feel really comfortable with that. >> Yeah. Yeah, I you know, I I push on this. This is a a topic that's close to me. I I've been been in the music industry for many many years on the management side. I don't do it anymore because now I just want to like talk to artists and I don't want to have to be thinking about >> I feel you. >> Yeah, I don't I don't want to have to like worry about you to that level, but I want to be able to connect and talk and and so I like doing this rather than that and but when I was doing it I I worked with an artist and we put out a a record around the kind of theme of addiction and and really about the process of coming out and you know, it was really this uh this in incredible story that like it did exactly what you were just kind of talking. It didn't like spell things out in a salacious TMZ click-baity kind of way, right? It's like it's telling your story in a way that like fans or people that are listening to those songs that can actually relate to and connect with and you know, some of it is like sad and some of it is like tough and you know, but being that kind of like real I think is something that your fans and certainly like I like have come to know about you and your music and even looking back at the American Idol days. >> Mhm. >> You I think one of the reasons you won, if not the reason you won, I mean obviously your talent, let's let's start there, but the I think the other reason is like you really did connect with the audience and people really felt like they were rooting for you that you were their their neighbor, their son, their >> Yeah. >> you they were they were your coach. Like they I think truly connected and so, you know, I I saw that you had said that you were had kind of masked this and and that maybe someday you'd talk about it and not but and I wondered like I wonder if that is a result of oversharing maybe through the American Idol days or like being so public and being so where you do feel this like obligation to share certain things or if it's something else that just is like you you kind of want to just keep keep to yourself and and keep private and and what that kind of looks like. >> Yeah, I I think there I struggle with that so much. Like this idea of I think I really like being a private person. I I like not that I do I like am a stay in my house all the time. I'm out. I'm doing my own thing. I'm going to the grocery store. I don't go that far. >> I don't go I stay in my neighborhood maybe. >> Okay. >> But I'm out. Like I I see people. I'm not like a curmudgeon or anything, which is fine if that's what you are. Just can't remember what I was going to say. I I just feel like I I like the the idea of privacy when it comes to people knowing my business or my family's business. And I'm probably more private about my family than I myself. Because like and I've said this from the very beginning to friends and whoever. Like the moment Like you can say whatever you want about me. I'm fine with that. It does like it may bother me some, but I can get over it. But like the moment you say something about somebody in my family, I'm not okay. >> Yeah. I'm like a I've probably become the worst version of myself in that way. And so I try to keep my family off like social media and things like that. Because like we're all flawed and we all have things and my family's not perfect in any way. And so I like the idea of being private. But I also want to connect to people. >> Mhm. >> So to do that, you have to like give them some version of yourself or like some part of you. And to like do But I also don't want to give them everything because I like to be private. And so there's that there's that struggle of of like how much do you give and and do you spell things out? Do you reveal things that maybe you wouldn't reveal? You know, I don't know. It's it's very It's a I talk about it I I think about it a lot. And sometimes that struggle of even just that specifically like keeps me from doing anything sometimes, you know? Keeps me from being on social media because it's like, do I really want to post something? Like because I like I like kind of being private and I don't know. I don't know. >> Yeah. >> It's very weird. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it is it is an interesting thing to to think about cuz, you know, also with the with the crash, obviously you for for listeners, like you were in a bad accident. And that was New Year's Day, right? >> New Year's Day 2013. >> 2013. Um and your wife was was pregnant at the time. And you were told like, you know, you you shouldn't perform. And you shouldn't go on tour. And I think it was like 4 days later you were back out on tour. And so it's like this juxtaposition hearing you talk about it cuz it's you're back on tour doing those things for your fans. You've never missed a show. And on the other hand, like you're almost like saying like you're being protective of your family more so than you are clearly protecting yourself. Because in that moment, doctors didn't >> now? What is this? >> >> What are we doing? >> I know. We're we we we got we got deep. But I I was like I got to I got to know >> I need it. I'm fine with it. >> I was like, I feel like I I want to know more about like this the themes of the record and understand it better cuz I I think that I I would and I would relate. And I And also, like I think that it is like the fact that you are doing all those things, it's like, wow, you're so giving. You're You're not even willing to like go listen to doctor's orders and and instead you're going to go out and keep performing. But then there are things that you're like and you take this, you know, long break. I think what do we say? 2016. So, almost like, you know, eight eight-year break from music or from releasing records. And like that's where I'm like, did some That's why I kind of asked earlier like is something Did something happen in that gap year that like or I keep calling it the gap year. The gap year is that uh that that like transformed where you were like, maybe I am going to be a little bit more reserved coming into this new record. Or maybe that part of you always existed. >> I do think that that I don't exactly know. I've I feel like wanting it to be the right thing did was a part of it as well like wanting the songs to feel right and it was just a lot of the times it was just me and and my producer Andy Skib doing stuff. And so, there was no like studio constraints or time constraints. So, we could go in and tinkle as much as we wanted to. Which is sometimes the worst thing to do. But I I had never done anything like that before where it was just two people being creative in a room. And I really really enjoyed it. And I'd I've never had more fun making music that way. I do think it took us a long time. I It took me a long time. I don't think it took him very long. He's insanely fast. But it just took me a long time to feel to feel like great about what I was putting out. And I think there was also this idea that it had been so long and I I think I wanted to prove myself, I guess, probably a little bit as well. Like prove myself in every way, in the production and songwriting, and making sure we had content ready, and it just feeling like the most me thing and I do think that that had something to do with the amount of time that it took. It was There was a million different factors for for the gap for the gap year. It Yeah, it was that. It was like my own pride probably that got in the way of some things, but I think it actually was not the worst thing. Me telling constantly asking myself, "Do you love this?" Cuz if you don't, then we need to like not not go back to the drawing board, but like what do we do to make to make you love this?" And I'm talking about myself. >> Yeah. >> It Because I I think I have gotten in other projects I'd gotten to the point where I wasn't listening to myself in that way. I was listening to other people and I just I didn't want to walk away from this thing going like, "I wish I would have done that. I wish this song would have sounded a little bit different. I wish there would have been a bridge on this song." >> Yeah. >> Because it's so easy to go like, "Man, this verse two verses in a chorus will like sing the pre-chorus again. Party." And I I got That literally has happened with those songs. Like like different bridges sat as a verse in a chorus like two verses in a chorus and I was just like, "It's not quite there yet." It happened with quite a few of those songs. Like it happened with Don't Stop Dancing. I was like, "I've got this and it feels good, but I think it needs something else. It needs to end in a way that doesn't feel that's that that I don't have yet." Indigo was like very chordally simple and I I like, "I like this, but I don't think I I don't think the music max or matches the lyric as much as I want it to. So, went back to the drawing board on the chords, and I found things that made me excited. And like, it's still one of those songs that when I pick up a guitar, like it's the first thing I play cuz I I like it. And so, I just I just I think I'm a slow processor as well when it comes to lyrics. I I will edit over and over again just to feel something from it. Cuz I can go into a writing session. I mean, I've This is happened many times where I've gone into a writing session with someone and we and I leave because I don't leave like without saying anything. >> >> But like, I'll be like, I think we're done because we're starting to go somewhere that I don't like. >> Mhm. >> But just give me a little bit and I'll send you something back. And it might I mean, it's could be 6 months later and I'll send I'll send them a demo. And they'll be like, I had forgotten about this song, but like I actually really like this. And so, >> Yeah. >> I just think that there was many factors. Life, craft, not being fast. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's probably the the you know, the the balance of being independent is you don't have you know, the machine of an RCA sort of breathing down your neck for the record to be done and because I guarantee that if they were there, that record would have been out a lot sooner, right? But you so you get to like create and take your time with it, but then I think the outcome is probably so much better, right? Like I know you have said many times like this is your best record >> I think so. >> probably because of that because you've been able to take the amount of time to really get all of the songs right. And you know, otherwise you kind of end up with the the you end up finishing a song or you end up putting something on, you know, the record that you're like, I don't really want to perform that anymore. >> Yeah, and I mean that happens so much. There are many there albums that I have where there are songs on them on the albums and and maybe this happens to everybody, but like there are plenty of times that I've recorded songs that I was even in the moment I was like, I I I can't I I don't want this to be on the album, but I know it kind of has to be. >> Yeah. >> And I and I also think I was just thinking about this, too, like the time to make music, I've never had it. Not a not like a like my first album, I wasn't doing that I wasn't like writing music and recording music before I was on the show. Not a lot, anyways. I did have I made one thing, but it you know, it it kind of was like very juvenile. >> Right. >> And so right after I was on the show, we spent what was it? Like 3 months, 4 months making a whole album and also I was on tour with Idol. So, that was just crazy. I didn't get to I didn't get to like spend time making music. And even with the second album, I'd been touring so much that it felt very similar. I mean, maybe not maybe a little bit more time. And I actually really like that second album a lot. There at least for the time that it was made. >> Right. >> Came out in 2012, I think, and I I I still think it's some people's favorite of mine, which is great. I it's a fun pop record, which is cool. And but then I got to spend what? Not very much time on the on the next thing and then not very much time on the on the next thing. Not that like I just think that the idea of spending lots of time making something and like trying to get better and learning from all my experiences was maybe something I was craving and I just did it. And I I was trying not to rush myself. There was no reason to rush, so that felt it felt nice and freeing and and kind of celebratory whenever it came out. It wasn't like we're putting this thing out. But I wish we'd have done this. It was like I can't wait to show this to friends. >> Mhm. >> And to fans and to listeners cuz I feel like you're going to love it. Cuz I think I do. In fact, I know I do. >> That's a great feeling. And you know, it's interesting too cuz I I do often times talk about like Maren Morris who, you know, came up as a songwriter in in Nashville. She got some big cuts and that's kind of like how she got around and you know, I used to see her performing at rounds. >> Mhm. >> And and then she became Maren Morris and the reason that first record though and I think Maren has a great catalog, but there's definitely some sleepers and there's it's not like what my church was and it wasn't the 80s Mercedes and the things that she put out on that first record and people are like, yeah, like she's just either she's trying to go too mainstream or she's trying this or that. And I always say like no, it's like that first record she probably wrote it her whole life. >> Yeah. >> And so it was like the collection of these songs that she didn't go into a room and write for the record. She like these were the songs that she knew that if someday she got the opportunity, she'd put them out. And you know, it's it sounds like this is kind of like what uh Pole Vaulter has become for you is like this opportunity to like say what you want to say, have it sound the way you want it to sound and maybe that explains, you know, the gap year which I'm now going to just say is probably the title of your next album. But I think that's uh you were really putting together the craft. I think so. I mean, I'm probably realizing that in this moment. Just this I think I I didn't start out as a songwriter. I started out as a person that wanted to play for people, play music, and I loved it, and I loved being on stage, and I loved performing at the pizza joint for $25 and 3 hours. And >> Mhm. >> I would sing as many songs as I possibly could, as long as people were listening. And even if they weren't listening, I didn't care. I loved it. And so that was never the songwriting was never like, "Oh, I have something to say. I have to do this." It was more of like, I think I want to do this because I want to perform. >> Yeah. >> And I do think that the that those things have switched. Not that I don't like performing. I I love being on stage. But I think that like the reason that like the reason that I do this now is because I like writing songs and because I enjoy the craft of writing songs and figuring out what's best for a song or like how to be clever without being too clever or how to be really clever or how to just say exactly what needs to be said without it. Like if when you catch that thing that is so hard to catch that like that like moment when you're strumming something or playing a guitar line and also a lyric falls out of your mouth, you're like, "I Where did that come from?" And then the rest of the song is just done in 2 hours. Those things don't happen all the time. And so like the being at the table and doing those things and trying to catch that is like the thing that I've been chasing. And now more than just just performing for people. And because I think I could be wrong, but like the thing that people come up to me the most about is they enjoy the performances. I I think so live. But if they're coming up to me and saying something to me about my music or my songs, it's not that like you did this tonight. It's more like that song, I'm so glad you sang that song cuz that song speaks to me in a way that I didn't even know that I needed it, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No, I I like that. >> Yeah, and it's you know, it's interesting too that you mentioned that you're not a that you weren't a songwriter and you didn't feel like, you know, that was you you liked, you know, the $25 pizza joint kind of gig is also like when you were when you were on Idol, you really like did sort of break the mold with Heartless, which is obviously like so many people know that. I'm I don't know if you still perform it live, but I I did the other night and okay. >> And Arkansas. >> Yeah, I know, but I and I know that you like bring people up on stage when you've done it in the past and stuff like it's uh it it's such a it was such a big pivotal moment and I felt like after you did that, you started noticing on American Idol like more of the artists like tried to recreate like what you were doing, which really was like you producing and you maybe not writing the song, but like you really took a a creative approach that hadn't really been done before and you know, we started this by talking about a Tim McGraw cover is like you actually like so and you were on a cover show, but you did it in a way that like still felt so authentically you. >> Mhm. >> And even though you weren't maybe like at the time didn't feel like you were a songwriter, like you clearly had the gift for that art. >> Yeah, I think I have like I have a taste. I have like a taste in what I like and like the things that make me feel like me. >> Mhm. >> And so I tried to do that. I didn't always do that with every performance that I did with when I was on the show. But I think that that like me doing that Kanye song was literally something I would have done at the pizza spot. >> Right. >> And my friends were listening. Like it was like this song is rad. How do I play this by myself? And it sound like me. And so that that was that was the easiest thing that I did on the show. I wasn't trying too hard. It was I remember playing it for we have like vocal coaches. >> Mhm. >> And I have a I had a Dorian and Michael Orland. And I played it for them and they were like no notes? They're like, do you want us to do anything? And like, do you want the band? And I was like, I don't think so. Even though that feels insane to not play with this band that's out there. They were like, I think it's great. I think it's fine. I think you should be it and yeah. So I I do feel like and just growing up playing music and all that, I just I've I've always played by myself a lot in my own room. So I I know the things that like I'm capable of and I want to sound like. So yeah, it's always been in there. >> Did you sense when you did that live? Like did you sense how big it was like in that moment? Could you tell like, oh, this just redefined my place on the show? And like I know in interviews like and and I I said we weren't going to talk about Idol and here we are. That's fine. >> I'm trying to talk about it. >> You've mentioned that, you know, Adam was the was consistent all season, and you know, he was clearly like a frontrunner like early on just cuz of his vocal abilities and things and and his, you know, stage presence and all of the things that kind of came. But, was there a maybe it wasn't Heartless, but was there a moment that you went like, I actually I I've got this? >> I think there was like there were two moments. There was I remember doing Falling Slowly and feeling pretty good about it. Feeling like, this is kind of I like the idea that this is a little bit off-the-wall song choice, and and then like making it work. I liked that, and I felt like, I'm at least here for a little bit longer, and I liked that. And I would say that Heartless I didn't know, cuz it was Heartless was top three. So, it was me and Adam and Danny. And I don't I knew I felt good about it, and I knew it worked. I knew that like the thing that I wanted to happen >> happened. >> worked. It like worked. I didn't know if it was going to put me into the into the finale. Cuz Danny is just Danny's so good, and Adam is so good, and they're very like they're very powerful in the in the way that they the way that they present themselves in the way that they sing, and so I I just didn't know how that was going to Yeah, I don't know if I knew for sure, but I knew that I had a chance. Whereas maybe before that I don't know if I did. >> Yeah, I mean, I do wonder if that's if that's totally true, cuz I feel like it I mean, I think that Heartless won you the whole thing. So, I like I that's why I was like, I wonder if you could feel it. And also, I know you're like probably more shielded at the time too, so you maybe didn't realize like the reaction to it, but >> Yeah. >> I remember like that was I was like well, I think he I think he won. I think he just won the show. >> I wish you would have told me because No, I felt good about it. I felt really good about it. Like I think I felt confident. I just didn't know if it was enough to get me to the next week. Just because Danny and Adam had done so much for themselves, but yeah, I don't I don't I didn't know. Yeah, we didn't know anything. Like social media wasn't a thing. So, we didn't know how like big or not big something was. There were weird forums that you could look at. >> Yeah. Yeah, I know for sure. No, I think and you know, do you do you still keep in touch with any of the the Idol folks and you know, I've had a I've had a number of different Idol contestants on the show from different seasons and you know, it seems like there's a good posse that usually comes out of each season that like does keep in touch. >> Yeah, I would say I there are a few people from my season that I keep in touch with. Wasn't too long ago. I had a long conversation with with Adam and it was so good. It been it had been a really long time since I talked to him. I've seen Danny here and there. I mean, there's a lot of us here in Nashville. So, sometimes we just see each other. I would say the most consistent people that I see though are David Cook and Melinda Doolittle. Those are like we try to have lunch as much as much as possible and I just love the both of them very dearly, but there's so many people from even my season like I feel like me and Matt Giraud send random texts to each other. Me and Anoop talk about sports. I've me anytime that I'm in Utah, I'm always hoping to see Megan Joy just cuz she's an absolute just just a joy. She's so just a great person and so uplifting. Allison Iraheta, anytime that I get to see her is just like she was all of ours little sister while while we were on the show and on tour and stuff and so we all >> like a a powerhouse. >> Oh my gosh. >> Yeah. >> If you like she was my favorite. And I that's no disrespect to anybody else that was on the show that season. But she was my favorite and I was always hoping for her to get through even over me cuz just like I knew I just I believe I believe in her and I still believe in her and I think she's like she's doing things for herself now which is amazing and I love seeing her success. >> Yeah, I think like you know it's tough on those types of shows too because it's like there was already Kelly Clarkson and there was a like and and even like some of the Idols after Kelly Clarkson kind of started her her career that started coming off the show and like even mimicking some of her sound and look and kind of going that direction. >> Yeah. >> And I think like that sort of worked against Allison in that way cuz I was like Allison was like such a powerhouse that I was like oh yeah this in the beginning I was like this could be this could be the winner. But yeah it but she is super talented and it's so it's just cool even just hearing you list off everyone's name like you you know it's like it's such a and the show's still going on and there's so many people but I mean back then like American Idol was like so magic. And nowhere else in the world were you like really seeing these groups of people that all from all different walks of life that are so talented and then like they're coming together it's like alumni like you guys just it's like going to high school with these people like you check in you see them like Adam's like you know Freddy Mercury now and like it's it's like it's that's just it's wild that you guys are all kind of doing doing this. >> I do think that there was a beautiful thing about that era of the show where the like YouTube wasn't a thing. You know, putting out your own music was so hard to do and it seemed so like almost impossible, you know? And so I think the show did such a great job of finding these diamond in the rough sort of things. I don't think it was always that way. I do think that there was some people that were asked to be on the show or whatever around that time, but there I think and I think that happens a ton now. Where back then like I had to wait in line for so long. It was like 12 hours with 14,000 people in Louisville where we all tried out. I don't think that's happening anymore. >> Yeah. >> And so I I feel blessed to be on the show when I when I when I was on the show because I think it it was I would never try out now for the reason of like it's you're you're able to do a lot of the things that the show can do for you. >> Right. >> Cuz there it just doesn't seem like there's a promise of I don't want to speak bad about the show, but like it doesn't seem seem like the like setup after the show it is the same. >> Yeah. No, I mean as it was. Yeah, and I you know, when you were on the show, the show was about finding stars. And that's what it did back then and that's why like, you know, you were able to just list a bunch of people and that's just from your season. But when you start looking back, you're like, wow, like there's a lot of stars and a lot of talent that came off of American Idol back then. And not to say that the people aren't that are on the shows now are not talented. >> They're so talented. >> You know, most of my listeners know, but and is like my best friend Cassadee Pope was the winner of The Voice and she had a career before and you know there was a lot of that but like and she doesn't speak badly about the show so I'm not I'm not speaking on her behalf but like those the shows now are not about finding talent they're about entertainment and about the judges and the personalities that they bring on and what they can do for TV ratings and so they're not focused on I mean the fact that you guys went on tour after the season like they invested in like truly making you guys stars where they just don't do that anymore and it's not it's not the same show it's about judges rather than talent and like you said now people can just go in their bedrooms and record an album and put it out >> and yeah I mean that's that's not always easy to do either and you're not promised anything when you do that but at least like that opportunity is available to everyone and I I I'm sure it was available in some way to my to me during that time but I didn't know that you know I I had really spent like my parents had to help me like make an album and I spent like what seemed like a astronomical amount of money to have a bunch of studio time and I but I I wasn't putting it out on YouTube I had a MySpace >> I couldn't even put the whole thing on there it was like five songs or whatever >> right right >> like the the little EPs >> playlists I mean yeah I mean you've had this you know what 17 it's been like 17 years since Idol since you won and >> that's wild >> obviously like you know it's it's also you know we we didn't talk a lot about your family but you you know married your high school sweetheart you know you guys have been together almost what 20 year 20 year 20 married 18 years if I have it right? >> Yes, yeah, yeah. I always forget because the show happened in 2009, we got married in 2008. >> Yes. >> So, it is 26, so almost 18 years. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. And you know, we just talked about this kind of massive machine of American Idol and obviously you had so many rabid fans that voted every week and went on tour and followed you and and now 17 years later fans fall off, new fans come. >> Mhm. >> But if you could like talk to the people that were fans of Live Like We're Dying, >> Mhm. >> like what would you tell them about Pole Vaulter and where you are today musically? >> That's a great question. >> Yeah. >> People would I think people would probably suspect that like I don't like Live Like We're Dying. Or that like I'm tired of it. >> Mhm. >> Or like it's not who I am anymore. But it's weird. It's like if I'm just speaking about that song in particular, it is like one of maybe two or three songs off that first album that feel the most like me and I didn't even write it. >> Mhm. >> Whereas like I wrote most of the songs on that album. I was just trying to figure it out. So, Live Like We're Dying is still I still think about it very positively. I do feel like I'm singing someone else's song though. >> Mhm. >> Now. Not in a bad way. I think like so much has happened and like I'm that song is so in my like muscle memory that I'm not having to think about it. And so it's like going I don't want to think when I'm playing the song live, it doesn't feel like karaoke, but I think that in my head I think about it like that a little bit. >> It was also a I mean it was round the time of Idol, so that makes sense because you were doing so many covers and that was what came and so it was like it was your first song, but it was kind of coming off of the success of covers. >> It was and so I just feel like I'm singing somebody else's song, but like a karaoke song that like I'm happy to sing. You know, that like I'm going to pick this one out cuz I'm going to sing it. And everyone gets excited when they hear it. And it's kind of stood the test of time in a weird way. >> Oh, yeah. >> I don't it was played a lot, but maybe not too much. Whereas like there's some songs get played too much, you know. >> Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I don't think that was Live Like You're Dying. I feel like I'm not skirting your question. I'm just trying to like wrap my head around it a little bit. So, I do feel like the person that I am now is different from that person and I feel like the music is more I mean I had a friend tell me with Pole Vault or someone that I've known since college who also makes music who I've written songs with and all that. He was like, "Dude, this is easily you're the most you that I've ever heard you do." And he's he's known me singing at the pizza joints, you know? And he was like, "I love that because of it where I think I think that that is I don't know. I I think that I've I've just tried to get better. I've tried to be more real with myself. I've tried to get better at playing and producing and writing and I think all that stuff has come out in especially the last album and even and I think it's always been doing that since since I started this whole process 17 years ago. >> So, if they loved Live Like You're Dying because they got introduced to you then, >> Yeah. >> this is a reintroduction of you now, and so they should should give it a should give it a listen. >> I think so. I feel like it's a reintroduction. Yeah, I don't feel like it feels the same. I don't feel like that first album and this one feel I don't think they feel like the same artist to me, but I could be wrong. Maybe I'm thinking too highly or differently about this than I should. But hey, I think they are feel very different to me. >> Yeah, and as they should. I mean, we talked about like all the time that has passed. Like no one stays the same forever, and if you were still that artist that you were then, would you have evolved into anything that would be worth listening to? And I think now you've got more story to tell. >> I think so, but I also, you know, it comes with like caution of I think the next thing probably won't sound anything like the last thing. >> Mhm. >> And I feel good about that. I don't know how good everybody else will feel about that, you know? >> Well, I mean, we we know the title now. It's going to be the gap year. So, while we wrap up, are you is what can, you know, fans kind of like expect, you know, pole vaulter, you know, last record, but where where are you going next? Are do you mention a couple of songs or maybe are cooking and and kind of on pause in the background? Are you putting something together or are you just kind of going to take another another little gap year? I don't think I So, this is a thing, man. I talk I've just had a long conversation the other day about this. I think I I feel good about like a handful, maybe like a big handful of things, like songs, and I think I have an idea of what I want it to sound like, kind of, uh need some help like figuring out what that might be. If I think it's kind of a lonely sound. Uh and so it might just be recorded. Who knows? I might record it by myself in this room or get a friend to help me out. I I think that the idea of making the music sounds fun to me. The idea of doing all of the other things is is really hard. >> Mhm. >> And really And And I'm not even saying this is like a a woe is me sort of thing. It's just a lot. It's a whole lot when you're doing it by yourself. And so much I'm struggling with that right now. Like how I want to make this. I want to make like whatever these songs are and I want to make them sound the way that I want to and I want people to hear them. But for people to hear them, you have to do so many different things right now. And you have to constantly be doing them. And it's just not something that I It's exhausting and also like when it doesn't happen or doesn't like something doesn't catch, it's it's it's really hard. >> Yeah. >> It's really hard if I'm being like a thousand percent honest. Like we did it. We spent a ton of time, money, probably more than people would think with content and putting things out and social media, which is not my forte, and paying money for ads and playing shows and it was I love that album. I love Blue Walter. I still think it it's it's my favorite thing I've ever done and been a part of. And I will I'd gladly play those songs by myself all the time just cuz they make me feel human and good about where I'm at in my life. It is hard to play those songs, to go out on the road away from my family, to to like not as many full rooms as you would have as before. And so, I'm I'm struggling with that. Like, the idea I'm just being real. The idea of making the music sounds great. The idea of doing all the other things that you have to do, it seems like, to get the music heard is is daunting at the moment. >> No, it is it's incredibly hard. >> I don't know what's going to happen. >> Yeah. Well, the the good news is that you can, you know, upload songs, not to MySpace anymore, but you can upload songs and we can find them and and you can always put something out there and see and you don't have to tour it. So, you know, you you can >> That's on the table. That really is on the table. The idea of just like, why don't I just spend time creating and making things and then just putting it out. And then if something happens, great. If something doesn't, like, whatever. You did it and you feel good about it. And then go do it again. Because I do enjoy it. Like, I I enjoy the music making process more than I ever have. And that I I enjoy that part. And it also keeps me at home cuz I just I'm just we're at a point in our lives where it's like, our kids are weird ages. They're 6 to 12. And so, if I'm gone for a weekend, I miss a ton of things. And I don't want to miss anything anymore. >> Yeah, I think you know, I mean, that's fair. >> Yeah. Not to quote Aerosmith. >> >> There you go. There's another cover song. Well, well, Chris, I know I've I've kept you so long from your kids and family and I I really appreciate that you that we made this happen and got to chat. I think it was a great chat. I I really do hope that people go listen to Paul Balter and, you know, listen to what you have to say now and and and I encourage you, like, keep telling the story and and lifting the veil on whatever it feels like you know we should hear and know. We We want to hear it cuz you got a lot of fans out there and I know that it's a tough tough road. There's a There's also a lot of music right now to consume and so, you know, as a fan, it's tough to kind of like prioritize where you're at, but but yeah, don't don't stop don't stop believing as Journey would say. And uh >> There's lots of really good music out right now. It's so like I love finding new stuff and I'm like I didn't even know that was a Who is this? This is so good. So >> Yeah. Awesome. >> Yeah, thank you, Chris. Thank you. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. >> Well, yeah, thank you. And um and tell fans where they can where they can find you on the social media when you feel like posting. >> Uh so I'm on Instagram at Chris_Allen. I think I'm on TikTok. Not very much, but Chris.Allen.Official. I have a website chrisallenofficial.com and you can find stuff on there and chat with me. I also have a Patreon and I really enjoy that. There's a lot of like like that's just a it's a great community of of people that love music and it's just fun. We do like Zoom calls and it's it's a blast, actually. >> Awesome. Well Yeah, go go follow him. Continue to check out his tour schedule, what he's got going on, and and for all of you listening, thanks so much. I'm Chris Vetrano. This has been Chris Allen and that's the gist. >>