I'm going to start with you. You're in that. You're celebrating in that. >> When you watch it like that, how do you feel? >> Uh I I feel devastated. I would say more because what the fans have had to go through and they've had to endure over this period. Me coming through the Man City Academy going there when I was 14 and all the noise around Man City, what should happen, what shouldn't happen, and I put my neck on the line for this club. They've given me this amazing opportunity to go all the way through academy and then you break into the the first team. My dream was to win the FA Youth Cup. I missed out on that and then I won the FA Cup, move on to to the Premier League. So for that to be in question now is is very confusing. You've got one side saying there's charges. You've got Man City side saying they've got irrefutable evidence. And it just leaves a situation for me, for the fans, for everyone at the club so so devastated. >> Do you And we know there's the appeal, so so things may change, but as things stand at the moment, do you feel let down? I I feel let down by the fact that it's dragged on so long. The fact that Man City talked about this evidence and if they had this evidence, I I want to see it. Make it easier for the for the fans cuz they're the last to know about everything. But us as players, what could we possibly do? We go out on the pitch, we give 100%. I've literally got one knee giving 100% for Manchester City Football Club. That's how much I love this club. And I would do I would do anything for this club because the opportunity that they've given me. And I'm in a a difficult situation now where I'm being questioned whether it be integrity, whether it be medals or whatever it may be. But I know I give everything and I give 100% for that club and that's all I could have done as as a player. >> How do you feel? I mean, it's such the worst question in sport all the time. How do you feel? But how do you feel when when we put this graphic up that has the trophies that City had during the period? You came through at City, but you were at Liverpool during a period when you could have won a Premier League title. How do you feel? And also when you hear your friend talk as well. I mean, I I can only speak from my personal experience um and playing in that era and it meant an enormous amount to me to to represent Liverpool to um you know, try and win a historic Premier League title. You know, when I joined the club, I think the club hadn't finished in the top four for four seasons. So, it didn't seem possible at the time probably that we were going to challenge for a title and go on and win a Premier League. and Jamie was there at the time so he he can speak from his personal experiences but I think for me we gave everything that we could during that season and I think what what I lean on more is the memories side of it like I think the memories are priceless and I think that's kind of what gets lost in all of this um >> you know deprived of the memories >> no I think lifting lifting a trophy you know with your teammates your families your friends the supporters the fact like that moment you know I experienced that here with the Champions League um when we won the Champions League and that was an amazing feeling for me to be part of that. Um and to be fair at the time look I accepted City with a better team. They they got the job done on the field. You have to accept that as a player we gave everything. We did all we could do to to win the title and they ultimately you know won the title. So you accept that and you go you know >> but Daniel were they a better team because they had more players? >> That's what I mean. I don't know. >> Better that's what we're getting to. I mean I I I understand what people and listen you lived in but I think the whole argument when you think of if we're just looking at Liverpool City here the Liverpool squad that you were part of and what we we say here I think the Liverpool squad you were part of with Jurgen Klopp that's one of the greatest teams to ever play for Liverpool. It didn't win the trophies it should have done and one of the reasons is Manchester City but in terms of what you saw there the football-wise was absolutely fantastic and so we we should make that point. I think City being as good as they were drove that Liverpool team to be as good as they were. But that's what we're getting to. That's I think that was the difference. It wasn't 11 v1 was the difference with those two teams. The difference was they had 18 to 20 top players where Liverpool probably had 14 or 15. >> It was Look, man, playing in that playing against those teams in general pushed you as a player. Made you raise your levels. You know, you knew what you was going up against. I'm sure it was the same for guys in the past going up against the the top teams of Man United and Chelsea and stuff like that. You you've got to raise your levels to compete with these teams. That's just the nature of it. And I think that's kind of where my mind goes. And look, you know, it does it hurt. Of course it hurts because I I don't think you can quite uh say kind of what the situation is from a from a player's point of view. Like Micah said, we go out there, we give everything. That's that's what we do. That's all I can control. I can control what I do on the football field. In regards to Manchester City, look, they did a lot for me and my family growing up. I was a 13-y old player. I went to the club. I appreciate what they did for me and my family, and that doesn't get lost in this for me. But ultimately, you know, I respect the players that I competed against as well. But it brings back memories of what could have been, what might have been, whatever. And that's just kind of we see how the appeal goes and and we'll move on from there. And this is not against the players, Mike. Obviously, Mike is spoke about growing up and playing for City. This is not acting against the players or the supporters. This is like ownership level. And if you're winning, if you're trying to win the prizes and we've been fortunate enough to win the odd prize here and there, but you you want to do it honestly, you want to look back your career and go, "Yeah, we've done it. We gave everything we had." You win some games, you lose some games, but you can't be looking back and looking at what Man City have done and have been found guilty of. I know doesn't appeal but for years we've been sitting there praising Man City said Man City amazing absolutely amazing bringing in amazing players and people like Pep turning really good players into kind of superstars but the way they were doing it that's that's the issue not on the players but if I if I was a player I know and and there was stories came out about what we were doing at Man United and if there was you you'd be looking back I I'd be disgusted I'd be disgusted if there was any sort of dodgy dealings going on or someone cooking the books. I I know I said a few weeks ago people think it might be a bit stronger, but I wouldn't feel I've earned a league title if I thought there was some something dodgy going on in the background. Absolutely not. It's not on like Mike, >> despite all your despite all your efforts and all your blood, sweat, and tears on on the pitch. You still wouldn't because of what gone on above you. >> No, no, absolutely. Absolutely. But but we talk about lads going out and giving their all and picking up injuries, but that is your job. You know what I that that's what you're supposed to do when you go give your all, but you just hope everyone else is on the same page. Everyone else has been honest and everyone else is trying to do it the proper way. And if if you look back and as I said and there's a lot of chat about I I hear a lot of ex players talking and going well the Man City players don't give their own but that we know that that's not the issue but they had unbelievable superstars then on the bench to come on to make them stronger and get over the line against teams like Liverpool who were pushing each other and that's what top level sport is about. You push each other. we had to ask for years. But you hope there's a bit of honesty and that's where the respect comes into the game. We're football and people. It's difficult for us necessarily to talk about legal stuff. We we play football because we love it. We're passionate about it. >> But you also have a bit of honesty. >> Is that hard? Is that hard for you? Sorry. Is that hard for you to say, you know, he joking aside, he is a mate. So is that hard for you to say that knowing that he he is an individual earned a title >> about him losing his title? Yeah. >> Yeah. But that's not in in a sense it's not personal. That would be just against the club. And what about all the other teams who are trying to go out there and be honest? Yeah, know I know Mike of course. But there's other there's other teams that maybe Liverpool were doing their best. What what what about their feelings? What about their emotion? What about the supporters who travel up and down the country who spent fortunes by the way and we praise the Premier League for the last 105 years. Magnificent league, brilliant brand. Because we also say there seems to be a bit of honesty to it. Teams near the bottom will fight against the top team. They'll give their all. But you want that. You want fairness on and off the pitch. And City haven't been fair off the pitch. They've been found guilty of it. But that's not on Mike and the players. That's not in person. >> The the mood is getting thrown at us players as well. So when you say I know your unconscious, you know that. But you can walk down the street with and hold your head head up high cuz you know you've done nothing wrong. That's people always >> what you went through. I know you missed the Champions League final because you had the suspension and all that. your your career and all what you've done all the all the greatness of of Roy Keane and at the end of it someone says well actually that didn't happen because XY Z which not been actually proven yet because there's an appeal so they found guilty of it well they've been found guilty I've been found guilty okay they've been proven but there's an appeal is that fair to say >> so we can have the opinion after that is that fair to say Jamie >> but Michael we've been praising city for the last years while these charges have been hanging over them every week I've been saying man city Amazing. Brilliant. Brilliant to watch Pep. >> Yeah. But put put your yourself in my shoes just for for one second. How how you would feel. >> Well, I tried >> when when people are constantly saying cheats, asterisks, they should be doing this many. It's not even come to the end of the appeal yet. And this is what people and I've said from the start, mate. And that's why I feel so sorry. Not just for you. I've mentioned Kevin De Bruyne. Kevin De Bruyne for me is and it won't change my mind. Yeah, Kevin Dunn is one of the greatest players I've ever seen. And whatever's going at City doesn't change my mind about him as an individual. And Harland today, I think he's one of the greatest goal scorers I've ever seen in me life. Again, that doesn't change. It's a team thing and a and an ownership thing. This in terms of I don't think they would have won as many trophies as they did obviously because they wouldn't have have had the quality of player. But this is an ownership thing. It's not a player thing and it's not a supporter thing. It's an ownership thing. And if I was you, and I know it's so difficult for you to say it, I'd be furious with the ownership. I would be I'd be because my career that you've give everything. Kevin De Bruyne, Vincent company, David Silva, some of the greatest players we've ever seen in this country, the careers are going to be looked at with an an asterisk and that's the minimum. It's going to be looked as a stain. You didn't win that. You're always going to be questioned. And that is on that ownership. And when you're signing J, when you're signing a contract with anybody with a with a company, whether it be Sky, whoever it might be, or when you're a player, you have to be careful who you're getting into bed with. Do you know what I mean? So, you have to trust the club, the people above you, what you're going to be doing over next years. Because a lot of players will say, "What's your plans for next few years? We're going to do this. We've got Pep, we got De Bruyne." So, you So, you kind of trust them and believe in them. So, they're the people who've let City down, not the players or the supporters. Far from it. You you made a we when we were talking yesterday about this you made a very interesting point to me where I was saying you know some players have said well if they were to be awarded the title repre retrospectively they wouldn't want the medal and so on and so forth and you said well that depends where you are at in the career you've had in the media and then you mentioned like a couple of the Liverpool kids who would have been in that team in 13 14 who would have had >> a medal and that could have changed every everything for them. Yeah, look it we're talking about what could have been ultimately. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's what hurts more than anything is we're talking about what could have been. Memories for players and and things of that nature. And look, as football players, you have a togetherness. That's what you you care about the most. I know ownership, you know, they own the clubs and they make the decisions, right? But ultimately, you rarely have close conversations with ownership and and things of that nature. So for me and for for my teammates, like I said, we were fighting for history. We knew Liverpool hadn't won a title for years. We knew that and that's what my ultimate goal was to do. I didn't get to achieve that ultimately. And you know, the players who I played with the season, I left the club 189 the season after they they won the trophy, you know, and and I'm sure for them that is their greatest achievement. But Tanya, what about the honesty of the game? We played together. I played against Jamie. Rivalry with Liverpool, Arsenal, and after games. We played European. At least after the game, when you win or lose, top level sport, you're going to lose a lot of game. But you shake hands with people after the game. We talk about respecting the game. You go, we gave it a we lost today. But hey, there has to be that honesty. And the English game has kind of always had that over a lot of the other teams, whether it be the other league, sorry, the the Italian league or be question marks over other leagues. And we're quick to point fingers at other leagues. But when it happens in the English league, then that there has to be a punishment. >> It's the scale of it. I think that this I think where everyone's frustrated by it. Let's not think that every club in this country are angels. I mean, Chelsea probably got away with something a couple of years a couple of years ago. Uh didn't lose points. I think City going back a few years, there's certain teams who had transfer bans and different things. I think with the Man City thing, it's the scale of it. You're talking almost a billion pounds in in revenue. They're saying that's coming in. That was proven to be false and the time it's it's gone and the amount of teams that involved in this. It's not just a Man City Liverpool thing. It's team It's Tottenham I think missed out in the Champions League three or four times as well. It's teams at the bottom. There's team in semi-finals and cup finals. It feels like because it's gone on for so long and the figures involved are so big. That's why it feels >> and in the statement Jamie they said sham eight times sham with regarding the dealings and this is not and against man city when ningham forest I spent three brilliant years in noningham forest when they they got they suffered and they had to take their punishment you and rightly so ever >> so why is it that we don't think city >> have to face the consequences and there's lovely stories and all these stories going I I was born I I came through the youth team and we were lovely it's lovely but there's other teams out there there's other people doing their best And you want to have a bit of honesty. >> Ultimately, you cheating. >> You want it to be a level playing field. You want to go on the field and say, "We're going mano, we mano, and we're a group of players going up against the other group of players, and we hope to to be better than them through the course of 38 games." That is the ultimate goal. Every player, you go in preseason, and you go, "All right, look, we're we're trying to challenge this year, and when I came here, that's what I wanted to do." I'm not saying that, you know, it's just it's hard to quantify like how I should feel about this because it's it's just so difficult to talk about if I'm being honest. >> And in general, it may be quite hard to to quantify to be honest. They they are denying it. They are appealing it as we're saying. Can you see any solution, any way where eventually everybody moves on and there we go? What whatever the punishment may be, whatever the sanctions may be, whether they win an appeal, it doesn't feel like any solution would would just draw a line under it and move on. Does it? I I I think that's why I think it's very difficult for the Manchester City owners to continue in their position because they're so powerful, they're so rich, they've never been told no before in their lives. And this is where this all starts. When we looked at the VT, they've come in for two or three years and allowed to spend what they want and then somebody said no, you this can't continue. And it's almost like they're stopping this this project going forward. And >> which then leads to another debate about the rule, but that's that's another >> but what I would say is people are talking about I keep hearing respect the process. We've had the process. We respected for three years here at Sky. Every time City were lifting a trophy. We never mentioned 115 charges when we were winning a league or cups because we were respecting the process. The process has happened. Man City just appealing that, >> you know. So we we got to make that point and we've been very sort of respectful about that especially on Sky. But I just don't see this ownership ever holding the hands up and saying, "Okay, you caught us. We were cooking the books." Right. Man, because Manchester City, move on. Manchester City are bigger than these owners. Manchester City been there 100 years before and they'll be there 100 years after. Amazing supporters, great players before, great players after. But I just think the fact that it's it's it's owned by a nation state. Are they going to have it in them to accept a decision or just keep appealing it? They lose the appeal, they go for another appeal, the Supreme Court. >> What if they was to win the appeal then Car? Then what? >> Okay. Well, we listen >> exactly. >> Okay. But my kid, when we talk about them, they won an appeal earlier on against UEFA. That was time bad. That was not cuz they weren't guilty. It was time bad. So that's completely out of question. >> But situation, >> it might have been a technicality, but but they they won the appeal. >> Okay. Okay. So they lose. That's what I'm saying. >> I get it. But they lose the appeal and then they appeal again. >> Yeah. >> They keep appealing and they keep appealing. And what that will do is that will just keep dragging the game through the gutter. Not just Manchester City. We all want to move on from it. And when you're talking about how long this has taken, that was Man City kicking the can down the road constantly. If you if you read everything that's gone on, this thing about how long it's taken, that was Manchester City withholding information. So they're the ones who kick this down the road and they're going to do everything they can to get off of it. Understandably so, but I think it's going to this could go on for years and I think it's not just going to ruin Manchester City while this ownership is involved. It'll ruin the game because today we're looking forward to a great game. Man City top of the league, but if they win, we're all going to say what does it mean? >> And and have we have we thought have we thought about that? Have we thought about every game going forward? I mean, it's a small thing I suppose in relation to everything else. h how we judge a city win, a defeat, how we think what we think about if they're six points clear, if if they're you, you know, 10 points clear at Christmas. Have you thought about how we analyze? >> Let's hope they get beaten. No, >> no. We listen, we all want we all want closure on this, but it will drag on, but that's again the problem for again, we're footballing people. Ultimately, we want a good game of football today and action and goals or whatever. And we're looking for a good reaction from Liverpool today and obviously see how Man City react to it and the other stuff will have to take care of itself. But in terms of closure on it, that seems a long way away. >> I I don't want people to get things twisted. If Man City are guilty and after the appeal and they guilty now. >> Yeah, but they're appealing it because they they're saying they're innocent. >> No, but they're guilty now. If they win the appeal then right now they're guilty. >> Yeah, but if they lose the appeal I'll be first to say they should be punished, >> you know. >> So what if they have another appeal? >> Well, when it comes to a head I don't think these owners will ever allow it to come to a head. >> I'm not trying to protect the position of any any club. We've been given the evidence. You look at it. We all have different relationships. Obviously, I've got a relationship to the club. So I feel at times I will have to protect but I'm not trying to do that in this in this instance. If Man City are guilty they should have the punishment but can we deal with that after the appeal and I'd be I'd say the exact same thing if if Man City were guilty today >> and they didn't appeal I'd be saying the exact same punishment. It would hurt me even more punishment. Are you going to be worried about let's talk about the punishment after the appeal if they was to lose it? But now it's speculations if or whatever. I'm not here trying to defend, but right now there's appeal going through. >> So if they lose that truthfully, would you be okay? Whatever punishment then comes their way. Is that another argument? >> No, I don't think it's another argument. I I have to take it. I would I would have to take >> No matter what happens if >> No matter what happens, I I'm I'm not a judge. I But I would have to accept that >> regardless of what that would be. >> I I I feel for you. I'm I'm I'm really sincere with that and supporters because what Manchester City owners are doing, they'll keep kicking the can down the road. >> And you have to believe them. Everybody watching this at home and everybody sat in here, >> your football club's like your family. You will defend it to the hilt until you there's nowhere else to go. So I've got absolutely no problem with you defending the supporters defending >> which is what they'll do today. But every every football fan in the country or ex player would do the same that it's it >> but I just think the ownership are going to keep dragging this on and on because you want to believe them so much. I mean they talk about irrefutable evidence. Now >> why would you not show that in the last 3 years? I I that's the bit I think a normal man on the street be looking at thinking if I was in court I'd want this over with as quickly as possible. Why would I want this thing to drag on for three years and I've got irrefutable evidence? Surely you want it over in a week. But when they're appealing to Jim, is that where they start looking at how they came to the decision? It's not necessarily the evidence. Is that right? The people who've made the decision, is that what they're trying to they they I don't think they can submit any new evidence. They can appeal how the evidence was inter. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I think that that for me is the appeals the the the point, right? But >> how did it impact what I went through on the field is what I'd like to know. And I think that's what clearly though because right now it's so much nuance and so much you know kind of us thinking we know exactly what went down. I want to know from my point of view as a player who was going up against that team what these how these charges impacted on field play because what we're debating really is okay you say 112 you went through the trenches with with your teammates right you played on one knee you won a trophy that is that for me I lost the trophy 134 they run on the pitch they did what they had to do on the field but now with with the accusations with the charges and now and they've been there's been a verdict clearly There's been an appeal clearly. What needs to be said to make it clear for the fans so we all not making our own assumptions is how did it impact onfield play and what where how did it all go down because I know from my side of things I can look my teammates or if I get on the phone with my teammates I can say listen guys you know what I mean like we could have done it we didn't do it. That's that's you know inside me. I would have loved to have won it. I would have loved to say that I could have achieved that historic moment for the club, but now for me, but for me, the closure, Roy, is knowing what went down. It's easy. We're looking at what's gone on from the outside. We're not in the courtroom. We're not in whatever it may be. >> I want the closure now cuz it's brought up. >> I'd have I'd have no hangup. I'd have no hang-ups as a player. If I was in that time up against City, if you were giving your best, >> if you were giving your best and they want you go, that's that's on them. I'd be fine with that stuff. If I was a player who was up against them, you thought they're if they're the ones cheating, that's on them. Your conscience can be clear. As long as you don't give your best and you've done everything for that team and your club and you're on about people in the trenches, there's loads of team people in the trenches every week and mostly unfortunately again a top level sport. You're losing out. There's only one team going to win the league. But if your conscience is clear, then that's a good start. >> We will end it there for now. There is a football match on the way. Is there? >> Yeah, there is. Do you want a drink of Do you want a drink of water now? You've been down for a drink of water.